Thank you Nandita: Your posts are both refreshing and invigorating with how "alive" your energy is.

Even though you indicate you feel a loss of command over your words, to accurately reflect your thoughts and feelings, I have found your posts to be incredibly articulate and often think that in addition to your stated career, you wil definitely be a well-read writer in time (like Shekhar and others--I don't 'google' anybody because I want to get to know you this way--and I still haven't looked up anything Shekhar does either!).

What is truly amazing to me--is that the cross-fire on the Intentblog has thrown you off balance--like it has me--and I needed that "splash of cold water in my face!"

The reason it amazes me that the recent contention here is in light of the "front lines" that you go to in your physical life--whereas this is "safe." Clearly then, sticks-and-stones can break my bones--but so can the harsh words of strangers cause deeper wounds to the emotional self--as opposed to the notion that "words can never hurt me."

It staggers the mind with the implications I'm perceiving that the turmoil of disagreement on the Intentblog could cause a brave soul like you as much anguish as going face-on with the struggle you posted about regarding the borders which separate the peoples India and Pakistan--and the efforts taken to keep people separated!

I believe the reality of the power of this Intentblog was starkly revealed to us by the "slings and arrows" since Larry King Live on Monday night, but....I believe this is an incredibly postive revelation about just how powerful the potential is for true change.

I am again left with the teachings of some Eastern Mystics and Sages who taught, and/or teach, that "it is not so important how you 'act' in this world, it is more important how you 'react' to this world."

It is early a.m. here in Colorado-pitch black out--and I am experiencing the sense of "remote viewing" what it looks and feels like--what time it is, what the heat feels like, where that couple is that Shekhar posted about--and I don't even go beyond the fact that there are not millions living in despair or hopelessness as a perpetual state of monotony--but rather, billions!!!

Thanks for your beautiful words and boundless compassion for the human condition. Love--Dave

Dear Nandita,
having a blog or journal can sometimes be very overwhelming. Thoughts, ideas, words will all come tumbling together to be stuck just at the brink of brain to hand to keyboard. It is sometimes frustrating, sometimes challenging but when you get something out, even if it is a quote from another person, you feel elated.
Thank you for sharing your writing, I know how hard it is and seeing you - reading about your doubts, is an uplifting experience. It gives me a feeling of togetherness - that there are other ppl out there that have the same problem/thoughts/struggle and get over it.

Una - Germany

Aye aye David, agree with you. I just found this blog on a casual search for someone else and since then have been particpating in the forum ever since. And even though almost no one in this blog community knows me subconscious I do care what virtual image my comments would make of me as I am still learing the art of articulating my thoughts skillfully. I am a creative person, but on the visual side and reading all your guys here is highly inspiring. But then i always say I am a man of few words.

I have a dream....
A fantasy....
To help me through reality
And my destination makes it worth a while
pushing through the darkness
still another mile
I believe in angels
something good in everything I see
I believe in angels when I know that time is right for me
I cross the stream
I have a dream....

Thank you Nandita.
Namaste, ABBA

Amazing and inspiring thoughts there ,.. first time here Nandita... will be back :)

Nandita, even when you don't find words, your kindness is obivous. Thank you.

Hello Nandita,

Martin Luther King Jr. led America through a very difficult time in our history, because of his non-violent teachings we were able to move foward using the law instead of weapons. His leadership was truly a gift to this country. Thanks for the reminder of this great man.

Although, I disagree with the statement.. if a man hasn't found something to die for, he isn't fit to live...It is a state of mind that many believe in, especially in today's political and religious climate, but I think living for your cause is definitly more helpful and courageous. Peace to everyone.

Nandita . . . Good Afternoon . . .hope all is well. Thank you so much for sending the quotes. I too have found some of the comments in the blogs stirred emotions and thoughts within my being which are a challenge to articulate . . .hopefully we will be able to continue finding peace and tranquility within our own beings.

Dave - great post! Thank you for putting into words that which seems to be escaping me at the moment . . .peace, love, kindness and bliss to all . . . Laila

Hi, Read all your posts this afternoon. Let me first introduce myself. I am a young journalist and a long-time admirer of your works. Had the opportunity to meet you on a couple of occasions, once at the screening of ‘Maqbool’ at Siri Fort, and later, when you were in the the studios of my last company. This is not a comment, but an acknowledgement of my joy at finally having an opportunity, through this blog, to hear the thoughts and the issues that are quintessential ‘you’, rather than the usual media quotes from a press conference, or a portrayal in a movie which is the director’s expression at the end of the day. Best wishes for your writing and directorial venture. Please do retain that hope and optimism that still thrives in you despite the knowledge and awareness you possess - the kind that misses most people.

Regards
Ruchi Sinha

Hi Nandita,That is a beautiful post.You,dear Nandita ,are very articulate.Do not underestimate the power of your thoughts and words and intentions.I need to read more about Martin Luther King Jr.His words have deep
meaning.I need to reflect and meditate on them.God bless you.

Mieke,I have enjoyed reading your thoughts today and lots of times before.I believe in angels too. I ask the archangels to protect me lots of times.God bless.

Dear Nandita,

Thank you for sharing those beautiful words of Martin Luther King Jr. Just now ... I needed to hear the song of Love, as I happened upon your post.

Love, Char

Dear Nandita,

Thank you for sharing such wonderful
words.

Love to you and All,
Robin

Your heart speaks for you, Nandita....loud and clear :)

Thank you for sharing these quotes. I'd just like to emphasize two that I think can't be overemphasized.....
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.”

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”

Peace and Love to All.

Hi Nandita, Just read your write-up on the Cannes experience. It was fascinating. Congratulations and thanks for giving us the insider's perspective. Can't imagine what it must be like to watch 3 films a day! Isn't that kinda unfair to the 3rd film watched?

Thanx for sharing such wonderful words.Wisdom flows out of compassion,as you rightly point out.

At one film festival I attended in the 70's, I watched 5 films a day on an average for around 15 days. It was exhausting and exhilirating at the same time. Some of the films I watched (which I remember even today) were - "The Marriage of Maria Braun" (Fassbinder), "Rocky", "Chinatown" and "Norma Rae", just to name a few among many other films by directors such as Istvan Gaal, King Hu, Tarkovsky and a host of others. The nostalgic 70's - sometimes, I wish I had a time machine to go back to that decade, as some of the finest, most thought provoking movies I've seen were from the 70's. The great Satyajit Ray himself was at that festival and I remember meeting him briefly, a memory I'll always treasure.

Hi Skarr - Of the movies you mention, the only one I've seen is the Marriage of Maria Braun.

It doesn't happen so much now, but when I was younger I would get so totally immersed in the mood of a film I loved, it used to be a spiritual sort of an experience and the feeling stayed with me for hours. That's why it seems so mind-boggling to me that people can watch multiple movies in one day. Isn't it way too much sensory overload?

Divya,

I guess you're right as I would be pretty exhausted by the end of each day and I think I slept through some of the movies. Too much information overload, I guess.

However, there were some unforgettable movies and you couldn't just take your eyes away from some of the images. One director I particularly like is Tarkovsky, a Russian director. He calls his filmmaking technique as "Scultping in time" as he tries to present a slice of reality on film, in the same pace as it would take place in real life. A really unique concept and some of his images are so beautiful, they stay with you forever.

If you haven't seen any of his films, try seeing at least one of them (Solaris, Stalker, Mirror, etc). Each of them is extraordinary and my favorite is Andrei Rublev. I also liked Mirror. If there is a director who has used film as a purely visual medium to tell a story in real time and presenting you with a slice of life, a moment in time, it is Tarkovsky and no other.

नन्दीताजी लगता है मेरे संदेसों से आप को बहुत बुरा लगा आप का ख़ूबसूरत दिल दुखाने के लिये माफ कीजिये लिखती रहिये जो आप का मन करे मैं आगे से दखल नहीं दूँगा आप की फिल्मे अच्छी लगती हैं फायर और अर्थ मे सेक्स सीन्स को छोड कर हां आखिर मे यह बात जरूर कहता दोहराता चलूंगा कि सेक्यूलरिजम और इन्साफ सब के लिये बराबर होना चाहिये चाहे वह कश्मीरी हिन्दू हो गुजराती मुसलमान हो या कोई और मीडिया ने जो गुजरात पर इतना शोर मचाया है वह कश्मीर मे चलते अत्याचारों और कश्मीरी गैर मुसलमानों के मामले में कहां है

Boring. Am painful attempt at psedo intellect..

Hi Nandita,

after reading your view about the last few days and the thoughts which came to your mind and Mr Martin's view.... i personally think that the only thing we need to pay attention towards is ourselves individually, everything comes from the source that is our individual expression and every step we are evolving or i should say moving towards completing ourselves and there are numerous or 'n' number of ways in the gross realm for the same.... everything we see or exists is because of imperfection and that is perfection itself.... i remember one statement of Swami Yukteswar or Mahavatar Babaji(dont know exactly whom but either of them) from the book "Autobiography of Yogi" that as long as we exist on this planet, we will always live in duality.............

Well this agrument of secularism is very old now.

I will not respond about the lack of sympathy towards atrocities at hindus or the obvious and glaring problems that bangladeshi hindus face. These are non-issues in indian media and i dont know why???. We have in the subcontinent seen how hindus in pakistan, bangladesh and kashmir have been killed. But that battle is lost. It was lost in 1947 and subsequently as we became secular and secular meant nothing to do with what hindus get hurt for becuase unfortunately they are in majority in this country. Gandhi could not win it, how can we lesser individuals think of winning it.

So let me put a different perspective.

As far as my response to the godhra incident goes i donot believe that there should have been a retaliation. An eye for an eye makes a man blind or indeed the whole world blind. Hatred can be removed by love and only love.

I believe that when Nelson Mandela could bear 27 years of prison in South Africa and then the scourge of discrimination was removed, then we can also fight this battle of hatred through love even if it takes hundered years. I believe that when Gandhi can give his life for pakistan and when gandhi can bring such a huge mass of people together and fight against imperialism then that is the answer.

So lets fight hatred. Let us fight hatred through love. Gandhi refused to accept imperialism and similarly mandela and Martin Luther King refused to accept discrimination. They went to jail, gave personal sacrifices but refused to accept discrimination.

So I will resist hatred. Hatred is the thing that should be our target.

So my sincere question to Miss Nandita Das and i would like an answer if she is serious about this stuff by putting her hands on gujrat. Does she think that islam creates hatred???. Does she think that there is a very dangerous strain inside islam which creates seperation and hatred.

What is her opinion on the belief of kafir in islamic theology

What is her opinion on the belief of dar-ul-islam(the conquered) and dar-ul-harb(yet to be conquered) in islamic theology

What is her opinion on triple talaq(the most barbaric system of divorce)

What is her opinion on state of woman inside islam.

I will not add that clique over here that i condemn or indeed love to hate hindutva and all that stuff. My question is specific dont try to fudge it by doing equal-equal. There are several bad things in this world including islam. So lets be specific. What are your opinions on the brutal aspects of islam???.

What is your view on the influence that islam create in certain(not all) section of muslim society.

I would like to know what miss nandita has to say about islamic terrorism(please just dont condemn it, talk in a more specific manner, otherwise it will just be some rant from a liberal).

Expecting a reply.

Abhishek

Well this agrument of secularism is very old now.

I will not respond about the lack of sympathy towards atrocities at hindus or the obvious and glaring problems that bangladeshi hindus face. These are non-issues in indian media and i dont know why???. We have in the subcontinent seen how hindus in pakistan, bangladesh and kashmir have been killed. But that battle is lost. It was lost in 1947 and subsequently as we became secular and secular meant nothing to do with what hindus get hurt for becuase unfortunately they are in majority in this country. Gandhi could not win it, how can we lesser individuals think of winning it.

So let me put a different perspective.

As far as my response to the godhra incident goes i donot believe that there should have been a retaliation. An eye for an eye makes a man blind or indeed the whole world blind. Hatred can be removed by love and only love.

I believe that when Nelson Mandela could bear 27 years of prison in South Africa and then the scourge of discrimination was removed, then we can also fight this battle of hatred through love even if it takes hundered years. I believe that when Gandhi can give his life for pakistan and when gandhi can bring such a huge mass of people together and fight against imperialism then that is the answer.

So lets fight hatred. Let us fight hatred through love. Gandhi refused to accept imperialism and similarly mandela and Martin Luther King refused to accept discrimination. They went to jail, gave personal sacrifices but refused to accept discrimination.

So I will resist hatred. Hatred is the thing that should be our target.

So my sincere question to Miss Nandita Das and i would like an answer if she is serious about this stuff by putting her hands on gujrat. Does she think that islam creates hatred???. Does she think that there is a very dangerous strain inside islam which creates seperation and hatred.

What is her opinion on the belief of kafir in islamic theology

What is her opinion on the belief of dar-ul-islam(the conquered) and dar-ul-harb(yet to be conquered) in islamic theology

What is her opinion on triple talaq(the most barbaric system of divorce)

What is her opinion on state of woman inside islam.

I will not add that clique over here that i condemn or indeed love to hate hindutva and all that stuff. My question is specific dont try to fudge it by doing equal-equal. There are several bad things in this world including islam. So lets be specific. What are your opinions on the brutal aspects of islam???.

What is your view on the influence that islam create in certain(not all) section of muslim society.

I would like to know what miss nandita has to say about islamic terrorism(please just dont condemn it, talk in a more specific manner, otherwise it will just be some rant from a liberal).

Expecting a reply.

Abhishek

Hi Nandita,
I am new to this world of blogging (find the word itself a little weird!). Does it get interesting as u go along the way? As the saying goes - There are two ways to slide easily through life, to believe everything or to doubt everything; both ways save us from thinking.
Fatima

Nice post..

I loved this line the most:
“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

Just read Deepak Chopra's last blog "If you don't want to fight over religion". I don't think anyone would dispute what he has so comprehensively articulated. Abhishek, Sunil and other bloggers, even though I may not agree with your point of view, I assume you have your reasons for believing in what you do. Similarly, I hope you will understand, that I too have my reasons for my beliefs. the blog is a great space to share without any pressure or inhibition. So let's not get into a personal war of words and instead, contribute to our collective understanding.

‘Lasa kami havasay, maazas gaum Basbasay’
[What is there for me to live, I am just withering away] – Arnimal

When I am alone – and alone I am, most of the times – I notice a pattern of shadows on the wall. No, it does not arise from my ancestral paroxysm. The pattern hovers there for a while and then turns into a virgule, as if self-defeatingly, and then fades away.

Shadows usually signify association, but my only associate is my loneliness. Moreover, for this umbra to develop, I cannot offer any shade. My world is afire. Even the fate lines on my forehead are sun burnt. There is no shade; no entity offers any comfort. I cannot even refer it to ubiquity.

So here am I – Prithvi Nath Raina – an erstwhile resident of Sardadesh, now known as Kashmir, decaying in this forsaken narrow lane in the heart of Jammu. The inhabitants call it Moti Bazaar in a manner an alcoholic would call the name of a Rathskeller.

On the chessboard of destiny, I am a mere pawn; I cannot even change direction to consolidate my position. Uma, my wife of many decades is still alive, with Soham – the rhythm of life – being recited with her every breath. She deserves a medal for living. Her kidney is gone. Blood is surging in her veins, interspersed with sugar. Her right eye has lost its vision. Diseases are like lovers. You take their names in a stentorian hush and they leave an aftertaste in your mouth.

Reading newspaper has also become a habit. I don’t read the first page. It carries the same news items, day after day. Like soggy peanuts, they are fried and made crisp and then served with catchy headlines for extra flavour. The second page carries few pictures and few lines underneath. They are referred to as obituaries.

Prabhavati Kaul – originally from Habba Kadal, Srinagar – passes away in Janipura, Jammu.

Shyam Lal Tikoo of Baramulla died Monday in Talab Tillo, Jammu. Tenth-day kriya at the Rajinder Park, Canal road. His ears still reverberating with the sound of the roaring waters of Jhelum, Shyam Lal’s tenth-day kriya will be committed in the shabby and characterless waters of the canal.

A Brahmin priest has been called for conducting the ceremony. He is in a hurry and he makes it clear before even beginning to recite adenoidal Shlokas. Rice has been cooked on kerosene stove and small mounds are made. Immersed in water till his knees, the son breaks the creation of a potter from behind his shoulder. Then he takes a short plunge into the shallow water or pours a few mugfuls over his body. After drying himself with a new towel, he dons a new kurta-pyajama and then slips his feet into the rubber slippers of either Bata or Lakhani. Sometimes Relaxo too.

Everyday after going through the second page, I decide not to read newspaper anymore. It makes me feel like Chitragupt – the clerk at the office of the lord of death, Yama – who maintains the records of life and death. I feel guilty, as if my reading newspaper causes these deaths. But so far, I have not stopped reading newspapers. It is because of a sense of duty – of attending the death ceremonies and kriyas of people known to me.

On the banks of the canal, people with probably same sense of duty have gathered to register their presence. Soon, they form small groups and break into various discussions. Kashmir situation to begin with. Then a debate on new avenues for sending sons and daughters for Engineering to Maharashtra. Somebody spews venom against the registration process of Kashmiri Samiti.

‘Bastards, all of them. Everybody wants to become a leader’.

‘Vajpayee Government has done nothing for us. Its Kashmir policy has been the worst so far’.

‘Arre Dhar Sahab, Have you heard this: Chaman Lal Bhat’s daughter has married a Dogri boy’.

‘Mahra, it is a common trend now. Punjabis, Sikhs, Madrasis, Bengalis and even Chamars – our daughters are getting married anywhere and everywhere’.

‘But a Dogri?’

‘Forget it brother. Tell me, what is your son upto, these days?’

‘He has just completed his B.tech, now pursuing MBA from Pune’.

‘Your sister’s son – I heard he is Manager in a software company in Delhi. My sister-in-law’s daughter, she is B.E Electronics – drawing a five-figure salary in a multinational firm. The family has their own house in Dilshad Garden. May be both of them can click’.

Pandit Ji is looking at his watch at regular intervals. After he finishes this task, there is another in offing – a Yagnopavit ceremony. Hymns are being fired like salvos. Even if the priest forgets to recite a couple of them in a series, it would not matter. If the soul is pure, it would go to heaven. And if it is not, how could a Shloka or two salvage the soul? The entire Dharmashastras would be of little help in that case.

Anyways, the ceremony is over and so is a chapter called Shyam Lal Tikoo.

When a person dies, the ghost of the deceased hovers around his mortal remains and mourns for those whom he has left behind. To rouse dispassion in him, the son to whom he is greatly attached performs the Kapal-Kriya – the breaking of his skull.

Who will rouse that dispassion in me? It is said that the heaviest load in this universe is that of a father carrying his son’s body. Ask me, I have carried it myself and my shoulders are still bent. It is me who dipped myself in the same canal water on my son Ravi’s tenth-day kriya and then on eleventh day, sent his soul to the abode of my ancestors, through the efficacy of mantras.

My condition is much like that of the king of Nagrama – now Nagam Tehsil, where I served as a teacher, many years ago. Damudhar, as he was called, built his kingdom, Satrasteng, on a plateau and also got a dam constructed for water. One day, as he prepared to leave for a bath, he was stopped by Brahmins, who asked for food. But the king refused saying he would have his bath first and then feed them. Angered with king’s refusal, the Brahmins cursed him, turning him into a snake. The legend says that the snake can still be seen in search of water. He is not to be relieved from this curse, until he hears the whole Ramayana recited to him in a single day.

How will I seek my salvation? Who will recite Ramayana for me? And what will prove to be catharsis for me?

Indeed very nice indeed !

The point is martin luther king was one of the few ppl who kept his ideologies above politics !

Think abt writing of some1 like Che Guavarra !

I just saw the comments of Abishek. It is really funny. Dude, there is something called real islam and islam interpreted by its religious and political leaders similar to real hinduism which talks ONLY about tolerance and the hinduism preached by people like BJP, Shiv Sena and other hindu activists groups. Real islam doesn't preach hatred similar to how real hinduism doesn't preach hatred. Also you talk rubbish about Talak. Well, it may be nonsense. What about Sati? What about killing of innocent girl kids after they are born, What about child marriage? How about talking these issue first before talking about another religion? The great Hindu spiritual leader Ramakrishna Paramahams told "karo pahale kaho peeche" (for people who are not good at hindi, you should first do and then preach others or something similar). How about people brainwashed by hindutva idealogy follow the advice of a great hindu leader? First clean up the mess in Hinduism before talking about the mess in Islam or Christianity. I would be more worried about shameful acts of sati before talking about talak. All ye right wingers should have your priorities straight. I would first make sure my house is clean before talking about my dirty neighbour. I apologize if I am rude but thatz how I behave with right wingers.

Krish: Great post! You are not being rude---there is nothing rude about the refinement of "elegant truths," such as the ones you have pointed out--most particulary, "If you are not going to practice what you preach, at least preach what you practice!"

Thanks for the reminder and strenghtening the veracity of such meanings! Dave

I may look like cynical, but the fact remains; the responses to the quotes comes out from my heart are:

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about
things that matter.”
- This raises a question; how many of us are really living?

“I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love
will have the final word in reality. That is why
right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil
triumphant.”
- Unfortunately today unarmed truth and unconditional love are termed as foolhardiness. And temporary defeat of the right looks like eternity.

“In the end, we will remember not the words of our
enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
- Yes. Yes and Yes.

“Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and
moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to
overcome oppression and violence without resorting to
oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all
human conflict a method which rejects revenge,
aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a
method is love.”
- Try to tell that to victims of Gujarat riot, or Anti Sikh riot or for that matter the victims of naxalite violence.

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
- The question is justice by whom and for whom?

“I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered
something he will die for, he isn't fit to live.”
- How many of us discovered? And in what circumstances?

“Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than
sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
- Add the word simple Apathy.
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands
in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he
stands at times of challenge and controversy.”
- How true.

MLK was nothing but a limelight hog. He craved and got all the cheap publicity.

Well thanks Miss Nandita for giving a reply.

I guess you have your position and i have mine. I will fight for mine and you are all too open to fight yours.

You fight hindutva and i will fight hatred, whether it comes from hindutva or islam.

Now krish has posted about sati system, killing of innocent girls(female infacticide), child marraige and all the evils of hinduism.

There are concrete laws passed against all these evil practises. All such practises are banned by indian law. I believe that caste system is a product of hinduism. Hinduism is just not goody goody. Ok and no religion is peaceful. Neither hinduism, nor islam, nor christanity. It is the people of this religion who preach and understand it make it peaceful or violent. What laws are there against triple talaq and polygamy, what laws are there against woman inequality within islam. Mr Krish please compare apple to apple. Hindu social evils have strict state laws to contain the virus, where are these state laws against islamic social evils.

Can two wrongs make a right. Hindutva is bad so let islam also be bad. I am saying that islam as is being practised is bad. It is in the name of islam that this country got partitioned. It is in the name of islam that we have an all time enemy called pakistan who is all too itching to strike at us(i am no hatemonger and would like peace and love as deepak chopra says that find common elements, find peace and find love, but if somebody wants to kill u where do u go, if i dont respond he will kill me, should they also not try to come forward and find peace, should they also not leave there hatred and come and try to do friendship).

People over here who will defend islamists with there tooth and nail will rail at hindutva with every oppurtunity that they will get. Where is the effort to secure better equal right for muslim woman. Where is the effort to remove the most brutal way of giving talaq to an already emaciated woman. Where is the effort to give equal status to muslim woman. Where is the effort to remove the cluctes of religious orthodoxy from muslims household. (the response that i will get is that well they have there own religion, let them live, so for there own religion shall we accept hatred also, shall we accept obcurantism, shall we accept religious orthodoxy and male supremacy)

Whenever issues regarding problems of islam are highlighted people try to pull in problems of hinduism. What is this attitude. Nobody is denying the problems of hinduism. There are strict laws against caste discrimination, they are implemented. There are very strict laws against sati system, child marraige. There are strict laws against devdasi system. And regarding hindutva. Well it is a bigger problem, but does that justify islamism and the hatred of islamism.

Does it justify the concept of dar-ul-islam and dar-ul-harb

Does it justify the concept of kafir

Does it justify the patriarchal system of islam and the feudal system that it creates.

The hindu internal social structure is changing fast. They are leaving the orthodoxy. An average poor muslim does not have access to indian legal system. Any problem he is encouraged to goto the maulvi(the local maulvi carries much bigger wait than anybody can carry for a normal poor muslim, not the elite muslim). He is encourged not to access the legal system. Already the legal system is defunct along with this the Personal Law system has created such a regressive social structure inside islam that muslim woman are not able to study, they are not able to build careers, they are not able to roam freely. Now I can back these claims with figures, if responders are interested.

So where is the fight against such a thing. This social structure is pushing muslims further into an abyss, they are being economically deprived, they are already discriminated against by hindus in general to put salt on the wound they are left at the mercy of mullahs and maulvis who just have no education and want to implement a religiously orthodox model of society( i guess i dont need to give any proof for this).

As for deepak chopra's blog. I completely agree with him. You should find common ground. You should try to find better things. Try to create friendship. Try to have love and compassion. And it is with love that i am saying that i will not accept hatred. Only love can remove hatred. And i accept that there is lot of hatred that islamists have. I also accept that there is lot of hatred that hindutvawala have.

Both are different problems. And i did not post on hindutva because the topic itself condemns it. And the other thing is that i cannot obfuscate the problem of islamists by doing an equal equal with hindutva.

The problem i have is that islamists who have created so much of venom and hatred have neither been exposed, nor have they been taken to task.

Islamists have been allowed to do there work in the garb of individual freedom and religious freedom, sir religious freedom does not mean preaching and spreading hatred. Religious freedom does not mean terrorism.

Looking at kashmir and looking at the overall economic and social indicators of islamic community all over the world(not just in india) it does not inspire confidence.

Last word. Miss Nandita you still did not reply my question. You just made a general comment. I understand that you think strongly about gujrat. I appreciate your effort. What are your stance on islamists and the hatred that they put in indian society. Maybe you dont agree that islamists bring hatred in indian society. Just give a simple reply. What have you to say about islamists hatred machine. As regards RSS. It is an institution which spreads hatred. No doubt. What about islamists???. But no equal equal please, They are two different problems

Abhishek

I will also say something else.

People here try to categorise responses. Right winger, left winger, hate monger, or hindutvawala or islamists.

The real issue is that whether an individual in any religion, region, society or culture. Where this individual is getting basic human rights. Whether he is getting freedom. If some system which is highly regressive then i have all the right to oppose it.

Some people say clean up your house. That means contain to your religion(what i call sectranism) and then in the same breadth talk about secularism, law of land and all such liberal values.

Why is the concept of nation-state valid then???. If we can divide the people of india in religious sections, caste based sections or geography based sections then why is there is there a nation which implements laws on its citizens, let individuals decide what they have to do, lets keep cleaning our own house. Who is the government to clean my house.

Who has given rights to the state to implement laws at its citizens. I will say i am a marwadi who has given rights to a punjabi to implements laws. Let a punjabi clean his own house and then come and talk to a marwadi about his problems.

Sir your argument is what i call sophistry. As you cannot deny the arguments against the regressive social system inside islam to redirect the problem and start pointing fingers so that people stop looking at the real problem.

If your argument is taken then there will be no nation state. Who made me a hindu. And why should i follow some law of land if the argument is that clean your house first.

There is a law and it is based on certain principles or equality, liberalism and justice and that should be followed and most importantly it is guided by the constitution of india and that is most important. A secular nation should not be guided by religious laws and Muslim personal Law is being guided by religious laws.

Abhishek

Dude, you are saying that a secular nation should not be guided by muslim personal laws. I agree. How about Hindu marriage act? If you take off that act, many of us will be without legal parents. Many of the transaction we have made in our lifves will become null and void. There are many laws that protect Hindus and the rights that come with their religion. So when they made the laws, they tried to make sure all religion are protected not just muslims. For all brainwashed hindus, only muslim personal laws will be visible not the laws that protect their own religion and religious institutions. You will follow Hindu tradition and get married according to it and you want Govt. to legitimize it. Someone else follows their own traditions but you don't want it to happen. Tell me how talak is hurting you as an Hindu. It does hurt muslims and it is for them to reform their religion. Not you and not Advani. I am no Mulayam Singh Yadav to suck up to muslims for political reasons but I am definitely not Advani and be an hypocrite. How about abolishing all laws that protect Hindu religion along with abolishing their personal law? How about preaching that?

Also I am not talking about laws that stop Sati. I am talking about Hindus not putting efforts to clean up their house. If you first preach hindus to clean up their own house and then tell others to clean up, there is atleast some sense. As long as it is not done, Hindus talking about muslims is similar to talking crap about a dirty neighbor when your house itself is dirty. As simple as that.

I do agree that Islam has fundamentalism deep down. Yes, it is a problem to be tackled by peace and love not by war and hatred. If at all you want to do anything from Islam, I would say, take a lesson from them. Many innocents in islam unknowingly allowed fundamentalists to gain power and leverage in their religion. This is the main reason why there are many known terrorists from that religion even though vast majority of them are peace loving people. Hindus should take a lesson from them and STOP hindu fundamentalists aka BJP, VHP, RSS, etc. from taking foothold in their religion. If you STOP them now, you can have a peaceful hindu religion in future. If not, you will have many hindu terrorists in the future. Some day, some country might take a policy decision against India and you will have hindu terrorists going and hitting their buildings. If you want to avoid such a situation, people like you and me should wake up and put an end to hindu fundamentalists right now. If not, it will be too late and hindus will be hated all over the world 100-200 years from now.

Also Abishek, how you differentiate hindutva from Hinduism, you need to differentiate Islamic terrorism from Islam. Only such a differentiation is fair.

Well i differentiate islam and islamism.

But like hindutva is a product of hinduism similarly islamic terrorism is a product of islam

Can hindus eschew responsibility of what happened in gujrat.

Can hindus eschew responsibility towards dalits.

Can hindus eschew responsibility towards woman like widows who have not been let to live a normal life.

Can hindus eschew responsibility to the social system which perpetrate inequality and caste discrimination

No they cannot. If i say that it is not my problem or hindu theological problem, then i am just avoiding it not confronting it, not being honest abt the problem

Read bhagwat geeta it talks about race and caste. These theological concepts get perpetrated in the society(and being used by vested interests in hinduism's case it was brahmans as a caste). Though these theological concepts may have a very good meaning and when implemented correctly maybe very good.

But human being does not understand it. He uses it. He uses it for his own personal interest.

Similarly the concept of

Kafir where only the believer(muslim) has all the rights and the the non-believer(kafir) is given second grade status is all over quran. Please read it.

The concept of dar-ul-islam and dar-ul-harb is all over quran. It calls on believers to convert non-believers(even if in a peaceful way is very brutal).

Simple criticism of something does not mean fanaticism. Criticism of anything is not wrong. Until and unless the dirt inside islam is not brought out. Who will know about it. If i dont write about india's poverty then who will iradicate it. If i dont write about india's social structure then who will remove it. Until and unless the bad things and the really dirty things inside islam is not brought out who will know about it.

My position is to look into all the bad things inside islam. Islam today manifests itself in one of the most violent ways.

Look at the most sacred place of islam, saudi arabia does it inspire confidence. Does it look in any way liberal.

People who say that this is not real islam(islamic terrorism). Please show me what is real islam. Please i am thirsty to see where actually islam gives equal rights to everybody irrespective of its religion.

Our neighbourhood has eliminated any trace of minority that it had in only 50 years. Islam does not inspire confidence. When hindutvawala says that islam in majority suppresses the minority(they are right) because that is what happens.

Abhishek

You are exactly correct about hindu fundamentalist. They have the potential to create hindu terrorists.

And about your concept of hindu marraige act. What is that. All hindu matrimonial laws are judged by civil courts. Divorce, alimony, civil disputes. Every civil law is judged by civil court and no dharma sansad decides about hindu personal disputes.

And about hindu undivided Family. This tax advantage should be extended to every citizen of india and not restricted to hindus. It is a tax break to encourge family, nothing else and which law in india tries to protect hindu social system. Please point out. I am willing to learn, i want to know which indian law allows barbaric, regressive social systems to be indian laws. I am willing to know if there is any law which allows hindus to practise any barbaric social system. I will be the first to oppose it. Even before my opposition to one of the most barbaric law like triple talaq.

Recently the parliament has passed a law for equal rights to hindu(mind you hindu not muslim) woman where she can fight for her equal rights.

As regarding cleaning my own house. It is a continous process. Nothing is getting stopped. With every passing generation hindus are making there social system better. They have better access to advanced education. They dont goto mandirs to get education(like muslims).

And regarding my concern for muslims. They are indians first. First and formost.

And how does a muslim situation affect me.

Go and see muslims ghettos in any indian city. Go and see the criminality that they create. It is a big problem. Here by highlighting the criminality or ghetto mentality i am not saying that they are responsible per se.

The indian secular system has logged out muslims from anything worthwhile or any government services. They just have no access to government services. The indian secular system encourages muslims to remain in there mediaval social system, if they want to find better judgement, they are discouraged. They are left at the mercy of mullahs and maulvis.

The indian secular system advocates madarssa education(there is widespread funding by indian government for madarssas)

The indian secular system advocates a regressive barbaric social system(AIMPLB has total control over all muslim personal laws)

The indian secular system does not give hope to woman and does not give justice to them.(the recent case of imrana is a live example, and that is just the dust, the real thing is very dirty)

What else proof do you want to show that indian secular system has hurt the muslims the most.

The hindu very easily goes and uses all the best that the indian government can provide. The IIT's IIM's there is no competition. You cannot find 1% muslims in these institutions of great education.

The research organisations, nowhere are muslims to be seen. Nowhere. They are not given the oppurtunity also to come out and become competent and the you wail about the relative problem of muslim community. Come on open up your eyes now.

Abhishek

Dear Abhishek and Krish,
Did you notice how 'a few words more' of Martin Luther King degenerated to a squable between Hinduism and Islam ? Don't you think we are going down ourselves by this controversy?
I don't know whether my comment will add fuel to the fire are not, but I am not able to resist to comment.
Abhishek, your points are reasonably valid, but don't you think you are becoming obsessed with Islam. One story of Sri Ramakrishna comes to my mind. In a village there used to live one prostitute and one Brahmin. Whenever the Brahmin used to see the prostitute he used to admonish her. Once both them died, the brahmin saw that he was sent to hell whereas the prostitute was sent to heaven, Enraged he asked the Yamaraja," I as a brahmin spent my whole life in Puja etc. and you send me to hell, whereas you have sent the prostitute to heaven. where is the justice?" Yamaraja replied," You were always doing Puja but your mind was always busy in finding the low activities of the Prostitute, whereas the prostitute was engaged in a low level of activity, but her mind was always striving for higher path"
Dear Abhishek, I am not trying to preach to you, but being a proud hindu, I feel, my biggest asset and sanskar is tolerence, respect for other sect and other religion. I have found that hindus rarely had any sectarian hatred or violence, we accepted, Buddha, Guru Nanak as our God / Guru. Let's think about ourselves, make ourselves better citizen of these world. Once we find good in us we will find good everywhere. Is it? Looks like a tall asking ?
Well I feel in this mad world that may be only answer.
Bikash

Bikash, Well said. In essence, this is what I wanted to convey. But I am so pissed off with Hindutva brainwashed youth of India (they are everywhere), I have become a bit more arrogant when dealing with them. I wish I could be like you or Deepak while dealing with these kinda people.

Well Mr Bikash your argument is correct but i think the context is not correct. In your argument you have condemned the prostitute just because she is a prostitute. She has done no wrong and so it was totally wrong of the brahman.

So if a thief steals then also a brahman should not react. He should mind his own business. I know that when you point a finger at someone then three fingers are pointed at you. But tolerating and not correcting hatred is not what a seeker of knowledge will do. Gandhi did not tolerate imperialism. He did not say that it is our fault. He put the moral obligation on britishers. He called them imperialist. Tolerating hatred and wrong things is not hindu sir. I am a proud hindu and i believe in the values that you so very well enunciated. But i dont believe in tolerating hatred.

Further your example can be reversed back and will show how such an attitude creates discrimination in india, especially caste based discrimination which you will be promoting unknowlingly.

Now here the brahman does not say anything to the prostitute(as you recommend) but keeps hating the prostitute for being a prostitute(which he will do always). As the brahman is a seeker of knowledge so he will have better power and more means to make his life better and make the prostitutes life worse as he hates her. That prostitute will become a laggard whole her life and the brahman instead of sharing his knowledge and trying to make the prostitute a better person keeps on developing himself and forcing the prostitute down. So finally that prostitute will become an untoucable. In generations that hatred will get perpetuated and then nobody will like to talk or even see that prostitute and hence oppurtunities for that prostitute or her successive generations will dry out and then she will become a pauper. This is the reason of untoucability practise being so rampant. Sitting on a high pedestal and saying mind you own business. I dont like you. I am more knowlegable and will not share that knowledge with you. As the brahman has a headstart and is a much better person intellectually so he is destined to become a better person and leave the prostitute(turned untoucable) at her peril.

This is exactly what is happening in india with muslims. They have been logged out of indian social system, civil court and other thing. Hindus discriminate against them becuase of the attitude that you have very well exemplied, mind your own business and sit at a high pedestal, i am a brahman so i dont need to come down. I am learned. To add misery to the salt. muslims have a tendency of seperatism. So this is a unique combination. Muslims due to there regressive social system going down fast which will lead to internal security problems and hindus sitting at high pedestal start saying we are better lets do our own thing.

To further make things bad. These hindu-muslim problem is creating unprecedeted social tension which is always going to hurt the muslims as they are not empowered so further more gujrat and more riots.

Anyways. As regards my obsession with islamic problems. Ya i do have an obsession(maybe way over the top, but atleast i am enunciating the problem), but i think people here are not ready to accept that there is some grave problem inside islamic social practises, partly because of the intellectual air which they shroud as tolerance. Tolerance of hatred. This is a start. So i should start tolerating hatred, violence, theft and social evils also.

Abhishek

Nobody said there is no problem in the muslim community. Atleast my argument is that Hindus have no right to poke their nose into their affairs when Hindus are not very different. Muslim terrorists in Afganistan desecrated Buddhist statues and Hindu terrorists demolished Babri Masjid. Muslim terrorists killed thousands of people in US, kashmir and other places. Hindu terrorists murdered 1000s of people in Gujarat, Mumbai and other places. So Hindus are not doing anything different from muslims. But there is one big difference. Individuals who are well educated in Islamic community oppose fundamentalism in their religion. But, unfortunately, many educated individuals in Hindu religion support such fundamentalistic attitudes. This is much more shameful than what happens in their religion. It is my strong opinion that we need to clean up a lot in our own religion before we pick on theirs. I just hope our educated gang which supports hindu fundamentalists to spite muslim fundamentalists understand that fundamentalism exists only in the primitive forms of human evoution. This understanding will make them civilized.

ok so you accept that there is problem inside islam. That is more than enough for me.

As regards hindus not opposting terrorism inside hinduism. Then what exactly are you doing krish???, or are you not opposing fundamentalism inside hinduism???. Maybe i am supporting terrorism inside hinduism. But i am glad and happy that there are several inside hinduism who vehemently oppose terrorism inside hinduism, the same should be done inside islam. I oppose hindu extremism more than you would imagine. When i oppose hatred, then i oppose the hatred inside hinduism. And this hatred is not only of RSS, but the whole societal hatred and also the generation old concept of caste discrimination

Saying that i am a hindu so have no right to oppose hatred in other religion sounds too secratarian to me. Come out against hatred all and sundry. We are human beings first and anything else latter.

I guess i will end this discussion over here and the next time hindu pandits are killed brutally, or people somewhere in a train are burned brutally, or minorities in other countries(example pakistan, bangaladesh, india, saudi arabia) then please dont call them that they are a piece of a bigger political problem, please come out and oppose it as strongly as gujrat riots are being opposed.

Thanks and i will not belabour the point further.

Abhishek

And Mr Krish. I donot agree with you point that there are several who oppose fundamentalism inside islam, or that educated hindus dont oppose fundamentalism. but that is a different discussion.

i just want to put the perspective that there is a huge problem inside islam and just by saying that i have to sit at a higher pedestal will take those muslims to the position of untoucables in a matter of 50 years. We dont need proof for that. The societal position of muslims in last 100 years is a big enought proof. The last citadel of any worthwhile muslim contribution has also been broken. UP where intellectual muslims used to flourish is also doing down and the situation of muslims in bihar is now out in the open. They are shoulder to shoulder with dalits in all respect and competing very hard to become worse than dalits and it wont be much time before it happens and then calls for reservation and then you know what will happen, all hell will break down. Please prevent it.

Abhishek

Whenever I talk about Hindus who don't oppose Hindu extremism, I don't mean all Hindus. I am talking about the section of Hindus (who by the way are mostly people with degrees) who support fundamentalist Hindutva and oppose fundamentalistic Islam. I am talking about those guys. There is a big chunk of hindus who vehemently oppose extremism in Islam but either support (there are many) or ignore Hindu fundamentalism. I am talking about hypocrits like this.

To answer your questions, even though I was borm in Hindu religion, I consider myself to be a human being rather than hindu. I am definitely not an Hindu in the Hindutva way.

Also if you are really worried that islam will go to a level below dalit, do you know what you should do first? Eliminate Hindutva (not people but the concept) then worry about their reforms. Till Hindutva is not eliminated, we have no right to talk about them.

Well Mr krish. I understand where you come from.

Eliminate hindutva but not islamism??? Sir both are feeding on each other.

I will not put blame on you. But i guess you have a blind hatred towards hinduism(or shall i say anything which is bad in hinduism). When you say that i am just a born hindu. That means you dont have faith and then going by your logic just work for humanity and dont poke your nose in hinduism. If you feel like working for hinduism then poke your nose. If you understand it, then poke your nose. You dont see anything good in faith, spirituality. And i wonder what you are doing on this blog.

Here i am going by your own logic. As you dont consider yourself a hindu.

I understand that you are an atheist. But even if you are an atheist, still why this sympathy for islam. Why this sympathy for the hatred that islam generates.

And by the way there was no hindutva in britain but still there are bakpackers roaming the streets of london, with bombs in it. I can give numerous examples, numerous examples. To blame somebody else for your own problem is called sophistry, or to divert the problem, to create a ruse. Hindutva is the ruse that islamists use to hide or divert the attention.

To me Hindutva is not hinduism. It is a new religious movement which anyways has to be removed from calling themselves hindu. They have nothing hindu in them. They kill at will. Create violence, have very loss level of spiritual coefficient. Have no sense of meditation and are very agreesive. They are political people and have nothing to do with hinduism. All there claim of working for hinduism is self made. No hindu has given organisations like these any sanctity and will never give.

There are several good things in hinduism.

Recently i read one incident in gautam buddha's life. It helps me understand what you people are trying to say.

Gautam Buddha went to a village and people there started abusing him. So Buddha said that yesterday i went to the neighbouring village and people there gave me fruits and flower. I kept the flowers with me and gave the fruits back. Then he asked the abusers, what do you think the villagers would have done with those fruits. The abusers said they would have redistributed it among themselves. Then buddha said so i give back your abuse to you.

So this way of looking at a thing does put in perspective what people in this forum are trying to convey. Abusing somebody is very wrong, anybody, even if he is a thief, robber, or even a terrorist like Osama Bin Laden anybody.

So dont abuse, never. But I am not abusing islam. I am criticising it. And honest criticism has been the hallmark of indian life, hindu tolerance. We have a tradition of criticising and then accepting if we are wrong.

People often consider criticism as abuse. Because they have bias.

Abhishek

Dude, did I say that. I said eliminate terrorism among Hindus first and then you can go and eliminate terrorism in islam. If you read my posts, you will understand that this is my line of argument. All I am saying is you cannot talk about eliminating terrorism in islam when Hindutva guys are eliminating islamic people.

Sir now you have forced me to say that hindutva is a local phenomenon and they dont go around killing people just for the heck of it.

islamic terrorism has taken atleast 100000 lives around the world and hindutva has taken 2000 in gujrat.

I will not say they are not comparable. hindutva has the potential to become something like what Bush is doing around the world.

But then the most brutal form of terrorism comes out from islamic terrorism.

Hindutva has to be dealt and islamic terrorism has also to be dealt with.

Kashmir has taken atleast thousands of lives of kashmiri pandits and 10's of thousands of lives of muslims.

Anyways lets finish it over here. I have exhausted my points and now carrying it further will be repeating it myself.

lasttime condemn islamic terrorism without any strings attached, like this is the another problem or that is another problem. If we keep on doing that then there will be no solution to any problem

Abhishek