"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind" - Gandhi

No exceptions, Nandita, I completely agree with you... and this includes cases of retaliation against previous injustices.

bc

LOVE CONQUERS THE WORLD
Mieke

Thanks Nandita . . . and Bharat - great quote from Ghandi. Peace to all . . . Laila

Yes, we can't afford to be cynical(Nandita, August 19, 2005 at 09:13 AM), but we would rather not leave everything to hope, and wait for the innate goodness, if any, to sprout. Optimism would give the light, but not the medium. Being optimistic could fuel what we could do, and what we could do would depend on what we "think" we can do. It hence becomes imperative that we do periodic checks on what we think and how we do that.

Hari (August 19, 2005 03:45 PM) gives a powerful thought in this direction. "Let go. And cross the river of ignorance with knowledge".

But, would I sound cynical, when I recollect that we, as a species are besotted to inertia; to be in the "as is state", especially where the mindset requires a paradigm shift?. Optimism is the only hope here.

Thank you for the wisdom that speaks from your words :)
Namaste, Mieke

Dear Nandita,

It is inaccurate to state that the Gujarati Muslims "were systematically being abused and eliminated". There was nothing systematic about the violence in Gujrat. It was a spontaneous outburst in response to the Godhra killing. This is certainly not to justify the riots but to point out that your misstatement has grievious anti-hindu implications which are not based on truth. Out of the 2,000 dead in the Gujarat riots, 850 were Hindus - a fact that the Leftist Indian media conveniently fails to mention. Again, all I'm trying to do here is to point out that the story that is spun about the riots and taken up by the Leftists is not an accurate one and all it does is to fuel misperception about Hindus without doing anything to alleviate matters for any other community.

With reference to the Sikh riots you make the same grievious hindu-bashing error. The Sikh pheonomenon was entirely one of political mischief by the Congress party. There has never ever in the entire history of India been any hostility or rivalry between Sikhs and Hindus. Indira Gandhi hooked up with some lowlifes and created this phony situation which got out of control. To call it a pogram is to show utter disregard and dishonesty against Hindus.

Oops, just wanted to correct an error in my above post. Just checked with a friend and the number of hindus killed in the gujarat riots was not as high as 850 and more in the 300 range. Meanwhile, will try and dig up the accurate statistic but the point was to show that it was not a systematicly organized riot as Nandita has implied.

"Undoubtedly, all forms of hatred and violence need to be condemned."

That in itself is a violent act in my opinion: condemning without understanding. If one is truly peaceful, one would try and understand with a compassionate heart, the reasons why people did what they did. That would give one more insight into "hatred and violence" and how to make things better for the future. Why did 9/11 occur? Why is Kashmir happening? Why has Gujarat become so anti-Muslim? It didn't happen overnight. One reason I've heard is that they fear demographic erosion and consequently, a Pakistan or Kashmir happening in their own state, as we've historically seen in India. Where would they be if such a thing happened? Historically, non-Muslims gradually disappear in Islamic countries (Pakistan, for instance has had its share of Hindus go down from ~12% of the population in 1950 to 0.03 or some such fractional number today, all either converted or fled). I can totally understand why Gujaratis would fear such a thing happening in their own homeland.

I understand that you're only expressing your sorrow about the violence. That's fine, but I think if one wants to make a difference and prevent things happening, one should look at things from the other side as well, and address those concerns too. Simply asking people to be peaceful doesn't really work, because people have their own experiences which make them act in certain ways. Violence hurts innocent people, people like you and me. But what most innocent people are concerned about is their own (family, religion, nation). And so if given the numbers, these very innocent people wouldn't remain so innocent either. They'd follow the diktats of their priests and Friday sermons to the letter. I bear no Muslim any illwill, but I do want to make sure my own (family, heritage, traditions) are safe for the present and future. It's as simple as that. Creating your own exclusive country is one way to do it (viz. Israel, or Pakistan), but it's not very sustainable or scalable, so I agree we have to learn to live with each other, to understand each other, to love each other as human beings, but simply bemoaning the effects of violence or riots is not the way to further peace. You have to address the causes and concerns that led to it.

Also, I think it's best not to get involved in such matters on a blog because it'll soon get bogged down. Best to start out with something small (take domestic violence against women, for instance) where everyone who's educated and peaceful is going to be on the same side, rather than tackle such monumentally core issues that'll pit people against each other quite easily. Unless you're okay with your blog being a battlefield.

"Undoubtedly, all forms of hatred and violence need to be condemned."

That in itself is a violent act in my opinion: condemning without understanding. If one is truly peaceful, one would try and understand with a compassionate heart, the reasons why people did what they did. That would give one more insight into "hatred and violence" and how to make things better for the future. Why did 9/11 occur? Why is Kashmir happening? Why has Gujarat become so anti-Muslim? It didn't happen overnight. One reason I've heard is that they fear demographic erosion and consequently, a Pakistan or Kashmir happening in their own state, as we've historically seen in India. Where would they be if such a thing happened? Historically, non-Muslims gradually disappear in Islamic countries (Pakistan, for instance has had its share of Hindus go down from ~12% of the population in 1950 to 0.03 or some such fractional number today, all either converted or fled). I can totally understand why Gujaratis would fear such a thing happening in their own homeland.

I understand that you're only expressing your sorrow about the violence. That's fine, but I think if one wants to make a difference and prevent things happening, one should look at things from the other side as well, and address those concerns too. Simply asking people to be peaceful doesn't really work, because people have their own experiences which make them act in certain ways. Violence hurts innocent people, people like you and me. But what most innocent people are concerned about is their own (family, religion, nation). And so if given the numbers, these very innocent people wouldn't remain so innocent either. They'd follow the diktats of their priests and Friday sermons to the letter. I bear no Muslim any illwill, but I do want to make sure my own (family, heritage, traditions) are safe for the present and future. It's as simple as that. Creating your own exclusive country is one way to do it (viz. Israel, or Pakistan), but it's not very sustainable or scalable, so I agree we have to learn to live with each other, to understand each other, to love each other as human beings, but simply bemoaning the effects of violence or riots is not the way to further peace. You have to address the causes and concerns that led to it.

Also, I think it's best not to get involved in such matters on a blog because it'll soon get bogged down. Best to start out with something small (take domestic violence against women, for instance) where everyone who's educated and peaceful is going to be on the same side, rather than tackle such monumentally core issues that'll pit people against each other quite easily. Unless you're okay with your blog being a battlefield.

Anand James and Hari,I liked the phrase "Let Go"also.I need to let go and let God. I need to not worry about the outcome of situations,or actions.I need to do my duty,by making divine choices.I need to accept that everything can be healed with love,grace,and compassion.I need to generate harmony,by listening or reading respectfully,and I need to wake up.I need to flow easily with life.I need to accept others comments with out judgement,expectation or blame.More than anything else I need to let go and let God.God bless.

Giayaram,

What will you do if you witness your daughter, mother or sister being raped? Will you sit down and start generating harmony with the rapist? There are no "absolute" virtues but rather there is an appropriate way to act in any given situation and it may sometimes mean taking up arms and shooting. The Indian godesses are always depicted with a weapon in one hand. This does not imply that they were bloodthirsty in any way but rather reflects the reality that human nature being what it is, it is important that one be sufficiently prepared to deal with all situations if one is to preserve one's dignity.

Hi Divya,the situation you alluded to is worth considering.I am 61 inches tall,weigh 110 lbs,a woman,not very physically strong,54 years old,have never held a weapon in my hand except the kitchen knife,I live in WV,in USA.Given those facts could I overcome an assailant,protect my loved ones?I really don't know what I will do.I know I will do everything I can to protect them.If that situation arises,my beloved, The Divine Mother Goddess Durga will guide me,and I will do what my conscience tells me to do at that time. In the mean time I will pray to Her,Durga Mata to surround you with Her Love and Light,so that all your wounds,insults,injustices,hurts are healed.Bless you.Geeta.

"In the mean time I will pray to Her,Durga Mata to surround you with Her Love and Light,so that all your wounds,insults,injustices,hurts are healed.Bless you.Geeta."

While I don't know your Goddess, I believe they are all One and I will hold hands with you and do the same, Geeta!

Blessed be, Sheba

Hi Sheba,Thanks.When I wrote that I was thinking of Divya.On these blogs some times we do not know what the other people's perceptions are,and that fact some times makes us misunderstand each other,and some of us unintentionaly, write something that causes further misunderstanding.

When I wrote Durga mata,(she is a very ferocious Goddess who slays the negative swiftly and protects her devotees)I meant "The Divine Feminine" or the Mother Goddess. I love Mother Goddess,no matter what she is called.I read some where that no matter who we pray to the prayer goes to Father and Mother God.Love and light.

Geeta - yes, I think I understood what you meant, it was me that was vague. I meant that I was going to join you in wrapping Divya with light and love!

Namaste, Sheba

Hello Divya, I am fascinated by all the beautiful names I read here, that are unknown to me. I did a search and found out that Divya means "divine" in Hindi.

I wanted to say that it is interesting to me to notice that both you, Nandita and everyone else here analyzing the situation must be right. That's because whenever we look at an injustice and inquire further, we see that the "opressors" have been victims in the past and the "opressed" are never quite as innocent as they claim.
And if we try to find out who is guilty and who is innocent by studying the numbers of people killed and by going back in history to the roots of any conflict, I think we will have to come to the conclusion that everyone is equally guilty.

But if we understand that violence is not inherent to human nature, but that it comes from a misunderstanding of our intellect that sees us as separate from each other, it becomes obvious that everyone is actually... innocent.

People can commit terrible atrocities, but every single human being is still innocent. From our level of "awakening" from ignorance, we are all doing our best, pursuing our own concept of right, true and loving, sometimes with guns in our hands.

Why the Indian goddesses have a weapon in their hands is, to me, a symbol that every one of us has to fight this ignorance in ourselves, because it is ignorance of our true nature that makes it possible for us to fight and kill. The more we practice waking up from our own dream of separation, the more we notice that peace happens without struggle, because then we meet others as another version of ourselves and that helps dissolve their veil of separation, too. Our true nature is peace, and our awareness has to grow and bloom for us to fully remember this.

just like to add one more thing that fellow companions of nandita on peace march like kuldeep naiyaar n vinod mehta etc etc are india's well known pseudoseculars.

more over hindu girls were abducted n raped soon after burning the train but indian media (read english media) did not mention it.this was also admitted by jayanti ravi(then collector of godhra) in her testimony to probe panel.

Nandita,

How is it that the so called Indian Intelligentsia and the media fails to see the 'systematic abuse and massacare' of hindus happening all over Kashmir?

How is it that Godhra is forgotten when you mentione Gujarat Riots.

I am sure you are aware that these things happened like the rest of us. Should you want to believe me, believe me, i am not anti -secular. My best friend and once upon a time partner is a muslim. I live at her house when she has her festivals, yet my views about Godhara and What happened to Kashmiri pundits does not change.

Ahmedabad elite ( i know since i worked with an NGO in Ahmedabad for 3 years) has the habit of bashing Hindus. And therfore, your post does not awoke any sympathy or empathy but just this response.

Do not wish to offend anyone on this post. Just that truth needs to be told at all places with everyone's viewpoint.

Mrudula

"Undoubtedly, all forms of hatred and violence need to be condemned." "That in itself is a violent act in my opinion: condemning without understanding. If one is truly peaceful, one would try and understand with a compassionate heart, the reasons why people did what they did"
_________________________________________________

Sure we all have our reasons for what we do - but it is how we do it!! Is violence and hatred the rightful way to acheive what you believe is right (or wrong)!!! NO!!!! Thats the very reason the world today is the way it is!!

Muslims or hindus or christians, no one has the right to take away one's life, no matter what circumstances they may be in!!! Political agenda is one of the main culprits, stirs the fanatic people the wrong way!

What does it mean to be hindu, muslim or Christian?? It a tag attached to you depending on which family you are born into!! Theres is only God, we have different paths of praying to that ONE god!!

That very God only wants us to live in peace and harmony. If he/she were to participate in this blog -he/she would realise his big mistake of putting us on this earth!!!!!

Ofcourse all forms of hatred and violence needs to be condemned - I have personally lost many of my loved ones in such acts of violence - no one is in the right when conducting an act violence!

Nandita, keep up the good work!!! :) Should admit that I dont know the precise statistics of deaths carried out by hindus or muslims -but the march towards peace is great and I think that is your move - so keep moving !!!!!!!!

Rad

Dear Aurora,

I agree that once you get into a fight both sides get their hands dirty. It doesn't matter whether the cause is a just one or not - the fight will leave an eternal scar on each one's conscience. However, I do not agree that because of this one must sit back and take a beating. If everyone thought this way, all the Jews and gypsies would have been exterminated by now. One has to take a moral stand even if it means getting your hands and heart dirty. C'est la vie.

I do not agree that violence is not inherent in human nature. This is the "new age" delusion. In classic yoga what you claim about human nature is actually considered to be a "divine" state. To reach that state is the equivalent of winning an olympic gold medal with regard to the amount of practice that is required. Therefore your statement sounds completely hollow. Given the violent nature of human beings, we must be adequately prepared to deal with injustice. Hindu symbolism is generally interpreted at many different levels from the mundane to the abstract. At the mundane level the weapon in the hands of the goddess symbolises the wherewithal to deal with the enemy. If you read the folklore about the goddesses, they have all generally killed various demons and beasts. At a higher level of abstraction you can claim that the weapon symbolises a fight against ignorance. But do not lose sight of the fact that ignorance manifests itself in the form of war and greed at the mundane level.

What I resent about the champagne socialists is that they get so caught up in the display of their bleeding hearts that they fail to see the negative consequences of what they're doing to other communities. Nandita used a word like "pogrom" to denounce the hindu community which has never in its 5000 year history ever made religion an issue. This fact is widely acknowledged by historians worldwide. It was the hindus that sheltered the Jews and the Parsis and the Christians and the Tibetans that were being persecuted by one form of ideology or another throughout the globe throughout history. I am willing to bet Nandita has never looked up the word pogram in the dictionary, and has never pondered it's inapplicability to the Indian situation. I feel very strongly about the lies and misrepresentation put forth by people such as this.

Rad, the death statistics were simply offered as a proof of the fact that the riots were not organized or systematic but were a spontaneous outpouring of anger.

Dear Nandita,

I dug out this recent exchange from another list comprising mostly of scholars. I have no reason to doubt these statistics although if you do so, please verify them through your own sources before you continue to spread lies and exaggerations.

Begin Quote:

As is now clear from the official figures released by the Home Ministry (Congress), there was no Gujarat "genocide" but a two-sided series of riots in which 254 Hindus were killed along with 790 Muslims (altogether far fewer
than in Congress-age riots such as Bhagalpur 1989 or the Congress-secularists' own Sikh massacre 1984, which also counted Congress
Muslims among the perpetrators), and that the police shot dead dozens of mostly Hindu rioters apart from wounding many more. Clearly the state did intervene to quell the riots, and this as per the official version stated by an anti-BJP minister. If there was any one-sided massacre, it was the initial killing of 58 Hindus, mainly women and children, by arson in Godhra.
End Quote.

Also from the same post - here's an illustration of something resembling a pogram, i.e. state supported discrimination though even here pogram would be a harsh word.

Begin Quote:

Now, after having followed Mr. Azam in his digression into female foeticide, let us return to the main point which he is trying to obscure: all countries where Islam is in power, and to my knowledge even all Muslim-majority countries (meaning also those with a communal power-sharing arrangement such as Nigeria or Lebanon) are showing a decline in the percentage of
non-Muslims, with external or internal migrations of non-Muslims out of Muslim-majority areas where life is made difficult for them. Practically all of them, including "secular" Turkey, have legal discriminations against non-Muslims, and all of them without exception maintain de facto inequalities and pressures encouraging the flight or at least the withdrawal from public life of the non-Muslims. The reason for this common tendency, across ethnic and economic differences, is the doctrine they hold in common, viz. Islam.

End Quote.

India on the other hand has special privileges for Muslims. Do you see how grossly unjust you have been in your characterization of Hindus?

why world over muslims are having problem in peaceful coexistence with others???

nandita, do u have any answers to divya's questions regarding decline in non-muslim population in islamic countries???

you need to do some serious reading.

Good Afternoon Divya and Sachin . . .hope all is well. Would you mind providing the reference to where the quotes are from - I would be interested in reading the dcouments as it is always good to learn about facts.

No matter what - regardless of religion or culture - the death of a being impacts us all. I think it is good to know the past as we should learn from the mistakes and hopefully put practices in place that will ensure all humanity and creation are treated with the upmost respect for life.

I also think it is important to look at today and the future and figure out what steps we take next. We cannot keep wanting to punish one another for the purpose of the past . . .it will only lead to inevitable destruction of humanity and creation . . . it is impossible to keep trying to even the score.

I pray all of us can look within ourselves to forgive past trespasses and work towards peaceful solutions for our future and the future of our children.

Divya, I look forward to seeing the web address references so that I might gain a better understanding of the struggles you and other hindus have faced . . . thank you . . .Laila

Dear Nandita,

Thank you for your response...and we are very much looking forward in hearing from you.

Two of my colleagues and I will be arriving in India (Mumbai)...December. Please, we could take a meeting in New Delhi at your conveniance...

And we are available for filming/producing...from February 2006 on...we are truly hoping and praying we can help somehow...we are at your service.

Blessings,

Gilda Pianelli
Ambassador Pictures, Inc.

cyberpianelli@aol.com
ambassadorpic@aol.com

Dear Laila,

I got those statistics from a private discussion group. If you want to study the document where the statistics came from, it is the 2005 Government Report in connection with the Gujarat riots and it should be a publicly available document. As for the quote about Islamic discrimination against minorities - that is the official state policy of all Islamic nations and you can check this independently by talking to minorities who live in Islamic nations (or muslim-majority nations) or reading the constitutions of these countries.

I understand what you mean about forgiveness and I am not advocating an eye for an eye. But I do not wish to tolerate lies. I don't believe people like Nandita lie deliberately. Here's my take on this. The dirty little secret is that for some reason, in the western world it happens to be politically correct to bash hindus - I guess this is because we are idol worshippers which equates with devil worship and also because of the caste system. On the other hand, it is politically incorrect to bash muslims. The Indian elite take their cues from the western world and faithfully reflect the same low opinion of hindus and the same coddling of muslims as the west. There is absolutely no difference in how the white man thinks and how the english-speaking Indian thinks. However, the white man spends a lot of time denigrating the brown man. But, in eternal faithfulness to their colonial masters, the brown man dutifully repeats whatever the white man says as if it were the height of sophisticated wisdom. This is the plight of most english-speaking Indians and this is why you get reports by the likes of Nandita talking about hindu "pograms" on one hand and tiptoeing around muslim atrocities on the other. They will simply not look at the facts but rush to denigrate the caste-ridden, idol worshipping, backward hindus. This is why I challenged her and not because I believe that hindus should be retalitating against muslims. I have no doubt Nandita is full of the best intentions, however misguided they may be. But as the wise old english proverb goes - the road to hell is paved with the best intentions.

I was given a greeting card recently that said, "What if they had a war and everyone brought a covered dish?!"

Love and Peace,
Kristie

Dear Divya, thank you for your answer. I understand that you carry resentment and hurt in your heart and I'm very sorry that you've had to experience things in your life that have produced such pain. I understand that if I say that human nature is peace, it will sound hollow to you, given your experiences.

Can it be that we are both right? Can it be that human nature is to be violent in dehumanizing, cruel situations? Can it be that we are naturally peaceful in harmonious, nourishing environments?
Can it be that the more unhealed wounds we carry in our hearts, the easier it is for us to be hurt by "violent people"? Each of us has to answer such questions for ourselves, and it is wise to notice that our answers are not set in stone, but have to change, because we are all growing. So if you are hurting today, and maybe feel that you have to fight a violent world, just wish for peace and be prepared to see your world change. I wish you peace, love, and laughter in your life, because in your heart, you are a peaceful and loving being, Divya.

Nandita: What a positive and hopeful message to see Gilda Pianelli's post about "being at your disposal" for filming!

Just the thought of you guys connecting and putting a creative set of "eyes" on any of the issues brought forward by this wonderful Intentblog is inspiring in itself!

Also: Hi Joanie, Laila, Divya, Sunil, Patzi, Mallika, Rita, Sachin, GJayaram, Sheba, Summer, Aurora, Tiffiny, Eldora, Mieke, Kristin, Kristie, Amanda, and........I'm only touching on just a few of the wonderful female voices (or most of them on this post) here!!!

I can't believe how many names are slipping the forefront of mind that aren't on this post.

Thinking of you and appreciating your excellent posts.--Dave

As an Amdabadi Hindu who loves her city, and has witnessed communal riots in 1969, 1972, 1981 (anti reservation turned into communal), 1992, and finally 2002, I have to agree with Nandita--2002 was nothing like we had witnessed before. It was systematic, not a "spontaneous combustion of violence", definitely NOT a level playing field.
For all those who ask "where was the voice of condemnation when Godhra happened?" The immediate grossly disproportionate retaliation gave us little opportunity to focus on Godhra. If there was no counter violence after Godhra, we would still be lamenting the innocent deaths of those 57 people who died on the train.

People always say, revenge and retaliation are human emotions therefore we can't curb them. But consider this: Four suicide bombers detonated four bombs in London on 7/7/05. We condemned it globally. Fifteen days later, the police killed an innocent Brazillian boy "mistaken" to be a suspect. The same British public that collectively condemned the four suicide bombers on 7/7, ALSO condemned the killing of one innocent boy by the police. When the chief of police spoke in defense of the erring officer he asked the public to keep in perspective that 53 died that day--whereas this was just 1 life. But as reported yesterday in various vox pop interviews on the BBC world service, people on the streets said we can’t have a country that condemns random killing whether it is at the hands of a suicide bomber or at the hands of a police. One other person said, while he understood the pressure the police were under, how could they have lied so much?
Those seeking to read further please refer to the Final Order on Gujarat dated 31 May 2002, National Human Rights Commission's report. It is widely available on the web, and for those who might wonder who the CORAM was, it was Justice JS Verma, Justice K Ramaswamy, Justice Sujata, and Shri Virendra Dayal.
Speaking against violence is a difficult moral position to wrap our heads around--because we live in a world in which there is endless justification for aggression. But for those of us who care about human dignity, silence is death.

Thanks for this opportunity to share my thoughts, and thanks Nandita for bringing up a vibrant debate even if it polarises people.

I agree with Divya that in India, we invariably see that when events like Gujarat unfold, people who claim to be peace apostles are quick to condemn "all the hatred and violence", and undertake a journey to lead all the hatred-seduced people there back to peace. And yet, we've had hundreds of thousands of people cleansed from Kashmir for the last TEN years at gunpoint because they were not Muslim (but Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists), the survivors among whom have been living in wretched conditions in camps with no one to turn to, and no "concerned socialite" has ever written about them, bemoaned the ongoing "pogrom" and "genocide" in Kashmir, or gone to preach peace to the militants there (would they even listen to you before they kill you for being Hindu?) and then, feel good and write about it on a blog. In such a scenario, when I read about the victims of the Gujarat events, I wonder why they alone are written about and not the Pundits? Even of the Gujarat events, Nandita in her first entry only talks pointedly about the Muslim victims and numbers, when the truth is that there were victims from all sides. What am I to make of that? Is this a fair person writing?

As a Hindu, all this makes me more fearful, and consequently violent and protective because I know that if these Kashmir-like things were to happen to me or my state, I would end up in the same situation as the Pundits and none of these people would so much as show up, much less do any of the things they've done and written about the Gujarat events. Does people arriving at such a conclusion further peace?

And I'm not even going to go into comparing the Hindu casualties in Kashmir vs those in Gujarat, let alone go into the historic numbers, both of which are heavily weighted on we all know which side.

How can one expect Hindus to continue to remain peaceful and tolerant of Muslims when there's an actual pogrom underway against them in Kashmir conducted in the name of that religion, when this religion demands a country and Islamic law everytime they reach majority of numbers? Not to mention what's happened and happening to Hindus in Islamic countries such as Bangladesh and Pakistan? How can we feel safe with Muslims being part of our community with all this?

Rad: Judging and preaching peace to people is easy. Walking in their shoes more difficult, but highly instructive and insightful. As they say, "Before you would judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes".

I am sorry for the loss of your loved ones and wish you the luxury of not ever having to resort to violence!

BTW all, I'm not being critical of someone who's obviously trying to do some good. I'm only pointing out certain things, such as the importance of being balanced in your take of such issues if you're truly genuine and want people to listen to your message of peace.

Hi Dave :) I'm thinking of you and wishing you joy!

Shuchi, thank you for your post, excellent example of "curbing revenge and retaliation". It is inspiring to see how Londoners responded to the bombings, and if people can do that, each of us can try and see if it is possible to respond to violence with peace, at least in small, everyday matters.

I think peace has to be practiced. We can't start by forgivning our worst enemies, but we can practice letting go of anger, fear and grievance in small matters, every day. To trust peace completely we have to go step by step and really experience what staying peaceful does in a situation and how amazing its power is.

laila,just check the current{2005} figures of hindu population in islamic countries like bangladesh n pakistan and comapre it with the figures of 1950's then you will get the real picture.

In 1984 my house was burnt by the people who worked for us (vegetable seller, laundry man, milkman etc.), people we trusted the most. I was very young at that time and vaguely remember being locked in the house while my grandmother and my uncle's family jumped walls, ran from house to house seeking shelter...asking for help. We lost everything in the '84 riots. My grandmother, a widow,who worked for the Congress felt betrayed by her own party people. They spent a series of days locked in a small shop. Do you know what is it to see your own house being burnt to ashes by your own people?

In 2002, I was studying in Gujarat when the riots broke out. Being a Hindu-Muslim riot, I was immediately put into the Hindu bracket even though I am a Sikh by birth. I was staying in a rented apt. with another girl who was a karate instructor in a school. I remember staying up all night with bottles of acid, bricks and a sharpened knife listening to the eerie silence that haunted the streets, breathing the smoke that enveloped the city. I survived on biscuits and milk for a week, didn't step out of my apt. with the fear of being raped or killed. I would sometimes go to the terrace and see rising flames and clouds of smoke laughing and celebrating the death and suffering of innocent people. My own room mate was part of a mob who went around burning shops and houses that belonged to muslims. "She" would come back at night and tell me how many shops and houses she burnt and how the Muslims ran with their families and laugh...I was shocked (shocked is a mild word)and wanted to kill her more than kill the Muslims.

I don't see why we need to fight over this subject on this blog. Whatever has happened has happened. There's no way that we can ammend it. Lives have been lost, families have suffered, hopes have been shattered. I saw it happening twice and believe me it will continue to happen. By blaming each other on this blog, you are not changing anything.

If someone writes about an incident which has left her with a heavy heart which has had a strong impact on her that she feels the need to share it with people, then accept her and her sentiments with an open heart.

It is not about Hindus or Muslims or Sikhs, it is about the vacant eyes of orphaned children, muted gang raped women, scared young men living in refugee camps...in short all the innocent people who lost everything that affects Nandita and like normal people she expresses her anger and an urge to help these helpless people.

Divya, Sunil and everyone else who have researched and put figures and excerpts from articles on the blog- my friends...believe me, they don't mean a thing!

Human. You said it all.

Read the post, read the comments and was beginning to feel disappointed at the aimless arguments and counter arguments.

The pride is gone
The faith ... dead
The fact remains
The fighter lives.

The cause is lost
The anger ... ebbed
The impression stays
The survivor is marred.

The reason is vague
The truth ... faded
The world subsists
The innocence is gone.

lets stop hurting for yesterday and start living for today and tomorrow.
peace is the only answer. the only way.

Good Afternoon Human and Toinks . . . thank you for sharing. Human . . .I hope you will accept a cyber hug filled with much empathy and love for peace which exudes from within your beautiful soul. Thank you for reminding all of us to look forward to a path for peace.

The poem below is one of my favourites - and I heard it this morning on a Wayne Dyer CD. The author - Oriaha Mountain Dreamer is Canadian and her website is - www.oriahmountaindreamer.com . May the words below enlighten our day with thoughts of peacefulness, humanity, understanding, light,unconditional love and bliss . . .namaste to all.

THE INVITATION - Oriaha Mountain Dreamer

It doesn’t interest me what you do for a living.
I want to know what you ache for
and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart’s longing.

It doesn’t interest me how old you are.
I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool
for love
for your dream
for the adventure of being alive.

It doesn’t interest me what planets are squaring your moon...
I want to know if you have touched the centre of your own sorrow
if you have been opened by life’s betrayals
or have become shrivelled and closed
from fear of further pain.

I want to know if you can sit with pain
mine or your own
without moving to hide it
or fade it
or fix it.

I want to know if you can be with joy
mine or your own
if you can dance with wildness
and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes
without cautioning us to
be careful
be realistic
remember the limitations of being human.

It doesn’t interest me if the story you are telling me
is true.
I want to know if you can
disappoint another
to be true to yourself.
If you can bear the accusation of betrayal
and not betray your own soul.
If you can be faithless
and therefore trustworthy.

I want to know if you can see Beauty
even when it is not pretty
every day.
And if you can source your own life
from its presence.

I want to know if you can live with failure
yours and mine
and still stand at the edge of the lake
and shout to the silver of the full moon,
“Yes.”

It doesn’t interest me
to know where you live or how much money you have.
I want to know if you can get up
after the night of grief and despair
weary and bruised to the bone
and do what needs to be done
to feed the children.

It doesn’t interest me who you know
or how you came to be here.
I want to know if you will stand
in the centre of the fire
with me
and not shrink back.

It doesn’t interest me where or what or with whom
you have studied.
I want to know what sustains you
from the inside
when all else falls away.

I want to know if you can be alone
with yourself
and if you truly like the company you keep
in the empty moments.

© Oriah Mountain Dreamer, from the book The Invitation published by HarperSanFrancisco, 1999

human, you said it: try as we might, it will continue to happen, and that's why we're going to try and make sure we come out on top at least in our own country.

I take your point about Nandita expressing her heavy heart. It doesn't mean a thing either when as you yourself say, "it's going to continue to happen".

Human and everyone else. My objection to Nandita is to the lies she perpetuates and to the lopsided nature of her portrayal of hindus and muslims. It's not only Nandita but almost the entire english-speaking-indian-community that do this. They feed off of each other and come from the same cookie-cutter mould that thinks they are obligated to trash hinduism. It's each person's prerogative to take up any cause they wish. But to continually pretend there is only one party at fault and only one party that deserves sympathy is a low down dirty shame.

And then there are people who claim numbers don't count! Does it make no difference to you that 6 million jews were killed? Are you trying to say it would be the same as if 6 jews were killed? It's very seductive to get all wrapped up in a goodness syndrome and proudly parade your bleeding heart. It's a lot more honest to look things in the eye and state facts for what they are.

On a positive note, I have to say that on this list, for the first time in my life, I have not been instantly labeled a hindu fundamentalist which is what generally happens if anyone ever says anything in support of hindus whether socially or in the cypersphere. For that I thank you all very much.

May you all be blessed with peace too, and let's all sing Jumbalaya together and dance in a trance, and discover that peace is our true nature as humans whether we live or be killed!

LoL, Sunil... you're funny! We can always continue to massacre each other, and see if we live or if we're killed :D

Divya, thank you :) Beliefs can be different, but we can find common ground beyond them.

Whew, This is going to be my last post on this thread. Nandita, I'm sorry for the pummeling. Back of my mind I know you didn't mean any harm and I should have brought that out. Peace - as they say in these circles :)

Aurora, Laila - thanks for the inspiration.

My educational background in history, politics and the religions of the world is poor. I am learning about the conflicts of some of these for the first time right here, on this blog site. I also have not lived in an area where I personally witnessed horrendous acts of violence carried out against my fellow human beings. I am left with only imagining how painful this must be to experience, and that probably doesn't even come close to the reality of it, especially when the emotions are fresh and raw. I am sorry. I do believe, though, that we all carry this pain in our collective consciousness. That each generation also carries the pain of their ancestors and if they cannot heal it in their lifetime, it gets passed down to the next, making the task increasingly more difficult.

In June I participated in a sacred ceremony for World Peace and Prayer Day. Most in attendance were indigenous people from around the world, mainly the US, people who have every right to hold hate in their hearts against those with white skin, for the atrocities carried out against them when their lands were taken away and their cultures practically annihilated. Instead, all were welcomed, all colors, all nations. We prayed together, we laughed, we feasted......we HEALED. This event changed my life because for the first time ever I FELT the power of peace and a true spiritual connection to everyone on this planet. I will never be the same, and this I take out into the world, starting within my own family.

I thank you all for sharing your lives. My hope is that some day everyone will be able to experience the power of peace like I did, the power of healing. We have to heal ourselves and our ancestors no matter how difficult it is. We have no other choice.

Love and peace,
Kristie

Hello to you too Dave! :)

What a beautiful post Kristie, thank you! It's important for us all to hear about others who are connecting to spirit.

Thank you Aurora. I have enjoyed reading all of your posts, on many different threads. The kindness and compassion you share with others is beautiful!

Divya, in an instant the whole world collapses for a persn who sees his own family being murdered infront his own eyes. For that person what significance does the no. 6 or 6 million hold...think about it! Look at the whole situaton and understand the pain without dividing people on the basis of religion or caste or nationality...jews,sikhs,hindus,muslims...human beings. They are all the same.

My last post too...

Love and peace

Nandita:
THANK YOU for sowing the seeds of love, compassion and humanity

Gjayaram (Geeta):
I am very touched by your words..." In the mean time I will pray to Her,Durga Mata to surround you with Her Love and Light,so that all your wounds,insults,injustices,hurts are healed.Bless you.Geeta.".....thank you for this beautiful example of UNCONDITIONAL love and compassion.........I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN

Divya:
I mean this in the nicest possible way.......when you are so consumed with hatred and anger and feel that killing is justified, then what separates you from those you condemn?

Sunil:
When you say that most people are concerned about 'their own' (family, religion, nation)..........isn't that a large part of the problem? If we expanded our world to encompass all as being a part of ourself wouldn't that change things dramatically?

Laila:
thank you for the inspiration

Dave:
I hope you received all the beautiful white light and healing energy that was radiating your way from all of us......even those of us who joined to party late, like myself (I just recently read Pam's birthday thread)

To all: God Bless

Trinity - how can you say something nasty in the nicest possible way? What separates you from a hypocrite? If injustice doesn't fill you with anger and rage then what separates you from a common criminal?

It's normal to feel anger and rage when we see people get slaughtered and starving. We all have an innate sense of justice and a knowingness that cruelty is not right. We all know deep inside that people should not kill people.

I think it is not helpful to try and hide those feelings, or consider them wrong. Anger is not wrong, it is a healthy signal that something has to be changed. The big question is- what do we do with that anger? Do we use it to participate in what angers us, in cruelty and violence, by accusing others and crushing them, or do we channel it in another way, inwards, allowing it to break down our beliefs that lead to the cruelty and injustice we see in our world?

We are not wrong to have angry feelings, and honestly feeling what we do is important. But the one crucial component of healing is understanding that the work and the change has to happen inside every one of us. We cannot change the world around us without changing ourselves first.

I was traveling and just got back to see the debate on the post. I am not going to hurl back "my side of the story" any further. Your truth versus my truth is an endless battle. The one truth we all probably will agree with is that there is a lot of suffering in the world and there are no simplistic solutions.

Gandhi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world". We all understand the truth of that and yet it is a great challenge for all of us to actually live it.

It’s just a blog my friends, just a platform to share, not to prove or doubt our intentions. I spoke here not as a Hindu, not as a woman, not as an Indian, not as an Asian, or any other identity, but simply as a human being.

I m glad we all freely spoke our mind which may hopefully bring all of us a little more clarity. Thank you all for your participation, both those I agree with and those I still disagree with. Peace.

Kristie . . . great experience you had in June . . .it is wonderful to see and hear of progress . . . thank you for sharing.

Aurora . . . Trinity . . .Human . . .Kristie . . .thank you for such words of encouragement and potential . . . peace is possible.

Divya and Sunil . . . thank you for continuing to challenge our thoughts and perceptions. Hopefully if each of us can work on resolving the internal struggles, our paths to a global humanity focussed on peace will be realised.

So many dreams at first seem impossible. And then they seem improbable. And then when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable."
--Christopher Reeve

"Our lives improve only when we take chances ... and the first and most difficult risk we can take is to be honest with ourselves."
-- Walter Anderson

As Deepak would say . . . love, knowingness and bliss to all our wounds . . . Laila

Nandita

I appreciate your sincerity.
My only request to people is to treat violence as violence without any religious prejudice.
I have not seen our Indian media ever take up Kashmiri Pandits case seriously.
Have anybody ever talked about the plight of Hindus and other minorities in Bangladesh and Pakistan. The life they lead there is horrible.

It doesn’t mean we have to simply forget Gujrat riots. There are victims on both the sides.
All I ask is let strike some balance here.

Best Wishes

Nandita

I appreciate your sincerity.
My only request to people is to treat violence as violence without any religious prejudice.
I have not seen our Indian media ever take up Kashmiri Pandits case seriously.
Have anybody ever talked about the plight of Hindus and other minorities in Bangladesh and Pakistan. The life they lead there is horrible.

It doesn’t mean we have to simply forget Gujrat riots. There are victims on both the sides.
All I ask is let strike some balance here.

Best Wishes

Nandita

I appreciate your sincerity.
My only request to people is to treat violence as violence without any religious prejudice.
I have not seen our Indian media ever take up Kashmiri Pandits case seriously.
Have anybody ever talked about the plight of Hindus and other minorities in Bangladesh and Pakistan. The life they lead there is horrible.

It doesn’t mean we have to simply forget Gujrat riots. There are victims on both the sides.
All I ask is let strike some balance here.

Best Wishes

Laila.....AMEN !!

No other civilizattion has created the kind of plurality and diversity as Hindu civilization - and that it not possible if the civilization is not non-vioilent, tolerant and peace-loving. On the contrary, the monotheist religons declare all other gods to be fake and all other religions to be false and converting/removing non-believers from this planet to be a religious duty in order to fulfill God's mission to bring kingdom of God - Such religions declare war on all other religions and adherent of other faiths - they can not live in peace or with non-violence with non-believers - Monotheist civilizations have created a bloody trail of such genocides, conquests, imperialisms. India herself is no stranger to such history - it littered with painful conflicts with Islam and xianity - In a post independent India, leftists have shared power by aligning with Islamists/Islamists, HInduism is facing hostilities from monothesists as well as leftists. HIndus are lectured about peace and non-violence but HIndus are not allowed to ask same from monothesists - do Islamists want to live in peace and harmonmy with Hinduism? Has Modern Islam given up Moghul tradition of vandalizing and supressing Hinduism? Hindus merely asked 3 sacred sited out of thousands that were descecrated as a symbolic gesture of mutual goodwill and healing - What Hindus encountered was a violent reaction from pseudo secular establishment reinforcing the Hindu fear that islam has no peaceful intention in India and that moslems do not want to reconcile with Hindus or live in peace with HIndus - that is what Godhara trejedy symbolised to Gujaratis - and if Moslems do not want to live in peace with Hindus, why should Hindus be the only people pleading Moslems to live with them in peace? Sadly, leftists/Psecularists are as much to blame as Islamists in not allwoing healing to take place among Hindus and Moslems at religious level. They think they can share power in India by riding on each other's back and by keeping hinduism down. That is why Gandhi's gujarat is no longer fooled by boghus rhetoric of non-violence and harmoney and secularism coming from leftists. Pseudo secularists have too much blood of innocent Hindus on their hands.

NARENDRA MODI DESERVES TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA. THE SOONER A PERSON LIKE MODI IS MADE THE PM, THE BETTER IT IS FOR INDIA

I have a question Why almost all the muslims country have water problem? Is god angry with them for their role of cleaner?