This is an though-provoking and well structured write-up.

I can't wait for your next post.

Rohit

Amazing. This is the 'stuff' that keeps me coming back. I love your analysis of life and the beauty of it. I disagree with you on most political issues, but all is forgiven when you write this kind of stuff!!! I love it!! Your books, and these writings are what will propel me to one of your seminars someday to meet the 'great one' in person.

I once was one of those 'fundamentalist christians' you write about, but had too many questions to remain there. Have no quarrel with them, in fact most of my family fits that profile, and I couldn't have better parents than I have. I've never been able to reconcile the '6000 year old earth', with scientific theory. I do absolutely believe in a higher power in the universe, and can't see how it could all be random....so thanks for writing this, sort of brings me out of my "me vs. Deepak" mode, back into the "me and Deepak" mode!!! (bad English, but you get the point!!!)

Anyway, I'm quick to criticize the other 'stuff', so just wanted you to know that I love it when you write like this!! I'll be watching Larry King tonight, anticipating every word!! If you find a way to start the bushbash, my hair will stand on end, but I'll still love you tomorrow....after I growl for a while tonight!!

Thanks for all you do...well, most of it anyway.:)

ray

Than you Deepak! I can't wait to read!

Stefan

Hi Deepak, less than 3 hours and counting. I can hardly wait :)
God bless you.

(ps looking forward to your follow-up post too)

This is called waking up, looking at assumptions, theories and what often amounts to false myths. I know little of this and am thrilled that Deepak is looking at these contrasting and at war views of evolution. It's wonderful. I have been reading about economics lately, and the same thing is happening. Jeffery Sachs has turned the whole theory of economics upside down, with his pursuit of economic models that actually help poor countries and the real suffering millions to improve their lot. And now, John Kenneth Galbraith, I believe is no longer alive, writing with such huge clarity about the dismal history of economics, declaring the obvious: the economic leaders of the western world were largely greedy, ignorant and operating on "classical economics" which simply doesn't reflect reality. There. This is the point, not to waste energy debating the theological merit of one's theories of life, evolution and Darwin's science, but to get a larger look at all of it, and "see" with clarity, a bigger picture, a bigger truth, a more wonderful reality that the smaller, narrower, stubborn, often false, often stupid in hindsight, theories failed to see. To see is the issue, to see larger is the work at hand, no matter what we're up to. To that end I have to salute Deepak. It is the bigger picture I am blessed with that inspires me, and lends me to believe in the passionate pursuit of truth, in my field, in my life, in my heart and mind. This is where it's at.

Hi Deepak,I have a book published by the Brahma Kumaris in Mount Abu.According to that book,Eternal World Drama, these are views of scientists against the evolution theory.

1,Charles Darwin .Not one change of species into another is on record.We can not prove that a single species has changed into another.(Darwin Charles,My life and letters) He cnfessed towards the end of his life.

2.Thomas Huxley.Evolution was not an established theory but a tentative hypothesis,an extremely valuable and even probable hypothesis,but a hypothesis nonetheless.

3.Professor Theodosius Dobzhansky.It would be wrong to say that the biological theory of evolution has gained universal acceptance among the biologists or even among geneticists.

4.Dr Austin H Clark.Ther is no evidence which would show man developing step by step from lower forms of life.There is nothing to show that man was in any way connected to monkeys.He appears suddenly and in substantially same form as he is today.There are no such things as missing links.There is not the slightest evidence that any one of the major groups arose from any other. Each is a special animal complex related more or less closely to all the rest,and appearing therefore as a special and distinct creation.

5.Professor J Doyle.Since we cannot prove the evolution of a single organism,it is intellectual presumption to talk of the evolution of the universe in a thousand million years.

6. Dr D'Arcy Thompson.In the study of evolution and in our attempts to trace the descent of the animal kingdom,four score years study of the origin of species ,has had an unlooked for and disappointing result.It has not taught us how birds descended from reptiles,mammals from other quadrupeds,quadrupeds from fishes,nor vertebrates from the invertebrate stock.The invertebrates themselves involve the self same difficulties,so that we do not know the origin of the echinoderms,of the molluscs,of the coelenterates,nor one group of protozoa from another .This failure to solve the cardinal problems of evolutionary biology is a curious thing.

7.A mere hypothesis says,Professor G.A.Kerkut.

8.No reliable evidence says ,John T Bonner.

9.Theory suffers from grave defects says Professor Albert Fleishman.

10.Utterly destitute of proof says Sir William Dawson.

11.No scientist can prove it says Dr Mulliken

There are many more scientists listed who say about the same thing.

I am happy in my ignorant belief that we have always been,just like God has always been.We are afterall sparks of the Divine.Thanks for reading. God bless.

Dear Deepak,

Thank you for posting this here, as my work and home schedule seems to always conflict in someway, to where I keep missing your TV appearances. Anyway, I will try to catch this at 9:00 p.m. (PDT) tonight - rerun according to CNN.

....very, very interesting ... I have been pondering upon this for the last several days due to Bharat's post on the subject and my confusion on the matter, as well as my many crazy concepts in order to try and make sense of the physical creation (i.e., especially the human ... me ;-) according to the Bible and what you say, as well as all the other theories.

Love,
Char

My 2 bits:

1. I don't see why Darwinism and intelligent design must necessarily be mutually exclusive categories. There's a bit of truth to both. This society tends to see things as true and false, good and evil, this vs. that.

2. The idea that there is a purpose to the universe is a very Christian concept. This world and everything that happens here is God's Will they belive. When viewed through the "God's purpose" filter the theory of intelligent design sounds flaky. Without that baggage, however, there is much to be considered as you so lucidly spelled out.

3. The Hindu sages envisioned the world as living cosmic intelligence. This too was another way of expressing the concept of intelligent design.

“I am happy in my ignorant belief that we have always been, just like God has always been. We are afterall sparks of the Divine. Thanks for reading. God bless” ~ gjayaram

I like your comment gjayaram, which I quoted above … :-D Thanks! Do you ever ponder upon if the Bible might be referring to the spirit vs. the physical or another level all toghether? …. just a thought … as I am trying to piece it all together …. and my puzzle is a mess!!! ... but I'm still working on it!

Was, Is, Always Will BE.

Love, Char

I began writing a response to this post but it ended up being quite big, so I posted it on my own blog - http://words.haddons.net/archives/000048.html

I'm not trying to bash you, but I do have some disagreements...

Just read this post, its 7:59CST. LKL starts in a minute...heading towards TV...

Tom - I read through your post as well and I think your responses are very compelling as well and I agree. (I'd love to see a respectful debate between the two of you!)

Ray - I was also raised in a fundamentalist christian household and, as a science major, I also had difficulty marrying the bible and evolution. I left the religion and it all became clear ;-) but I didn't abandon spirituality.

Deepak - I think these are great and compelling points. The scientist in me can't help but see the intelligence at work in evolution. When I was attending the University of Toronto, one of my biology professors related this anecdote to me about a lecture he had attended with a leading neurobiologist. This man (who's name I unfortunately forget) was lecturing on the neural connections in the brain and marvelling at how any time one of its neurons fires it has literally millions of possible pathways that it could take... and moreso marvelling at the fact that despite millions and millions of firings on a daily basis, the neuron gets it right nearly 100% of the time. It just *knows* where to go and it's almost impossible that randomness could account for this. He commented that there seemed to be a kind of intelligence at work. At the conclusion of this story I put up my hand and cheekily said to my prof, "you mean like a soul?"

I think that your work here Deepak - in rescuing the idea of Intelligence at work in evolution from the creationists - is EXTREMELY important. Please continue this. I look forward to seeing your appearance on Larry King tonight!

Giarayam - Thank you for the quotes but unfortunately many of them were spoken/written a few hundred years ago. Take Huxley for instance. He has been dead for over 100 years and the advances in evolution, let alone science in general, are innumerable since that time. Science DOES regard evolution as a Theory and not merely an hypothesis in this day and age.

Namaste, Sheba

Haven't had a chance to read the other posts as I am cutting-out to watch this "Spiritual-Advisor-Guy" on Larry King!!

This should be good, but..., the question, "I don't know who will bother to read these points???" What, are you kidding Deepak?

The only ones I've found who are coming close to answering the very questions you pose here--are all Ascended Masters, and a few of them are taking the time to directly ask, and address, or disseminate through personages such as yourself--their answers to same!!

The way your mind works with these incisive questions, then follows with these fabulously-well-reasoned guidance ramps-of-thought, ARE the proof of the "intelligent design" at work--and that THIS INTELLIGENCE is very, very, active in "the moment" of the "here and now!"

One can "see" the Observer literally operating in your aura and interacting with the "observed world" which swirls around you--should I say, "Dr. Merlin Chopra." Gotta "tune out" so we can "tune in" now.

So instead of "bothering" to read or write further, it is time to "bother" my senses with listening to you--along with a good portion of the world's population with Western Media access! Dave

(Heavy sigh) This is the trouble with the debate between the theory (enough said about the term “theory”) of evolution and intelligent design (which technically is not even a theory, it is a belief system similar to the belief that scarab beetles roll the sun across the sky, i.e. if you don’t understand it completely it must have a supernatural cause). The points you outline illustrate the fuzzy understanding of evolution that is too prevalent in the general public or ask questions that have been largely addressed by real science. For myself, I believe the evidence is overwhelmingly for evolution. If you want to believe God had a hand in it, that’s optional and harmless to the theory. I would like to briefly address your points:
1. DNA is actually a very simple molecule (current theory suggests life may have begun with its’ cousin RNA, but lets not digress). It consists of only four “beads” strung together in a long “necklace”. Experiments have shown that these four “beads” (nucleotides) can form from natural processes like any number of small molecules. Scientists have speculated different means of these nucleotides being strung together such as aligning themselves along mineral clays. Now, it only had to happen once, but if among billions and billions of short strings of DNA (or RNA) one string had a tendency to act as a template for a copy of itself, that would have been the kickoff to evolving life: very slow at first, but picking up speed as simple traits develop that increase the tendency to reproduce itself (say, a lipid coating to protect it from chemicals that might break up the chain).
2. This one’s easy. First off, fossilization is a pretty rare process. One fossil animal represents thousands or millions that must have been alive at the time it died. Animals with mutations that prevent them from reproducing don’t reproduce and therefore don’t occur in large numbers and therefore don’t appear in the fossil record. Evolution is elegantly self-regulating that way. And useless mutations do occur all the time. They just don’t have any apparent effect. A genetics professor once told me that the human genome is so large that every person likely has one mutation that has never before occurred in the human species. Now, lets clear something up: most of the variation in multicellular organism does not come from point mutations, but from sexual reproduction and crossing over i.e. the shuffling of genes that occurs in cells when they split up to form sperm and egg. These two processes mix genes up a lot. And why would they even exist if not to produce variation, which is grist for the evolutionary mill. After all, there are only two paths: evolution or extinction.
3. Evolution IS constant. The sharks and turtles and insects and anything else still around would not be genetically identical to their forebears of a few million years ago. You offhandedly discount how they “diversify among their kind”. Chimpanzees, per se, did not exist just two million years ago. Nothing has “stopped” as you put it. Human evolution may seem fast to you, but we are only talking about a tiny, tiny sliver of geologic time.
4. What stuck? What simultaneous? Feathers likely evolved from scales and are really quite similar. I don’t see anything insurmountable in this question. Different traits evolve in response to different circumstances and have different outcomes.
5. Your use of the word “intelligence” here is kind of fuzzy. Do you mean why has life continued to increase in complexity? After the first few billion years of life, there was more to put pressure on organisms than just the physical environment. There were other organisms, the biological environment. Remember the two paths: evolution or extinction. Blue-green algae kept evolving to be the best blue-green algae it could be. Other organisms took different routes to survival. Once multicellular forms occurred, there was a whole new ballgame as far as potential ways to evolve. Things just got more interesting after that.
6. First, lets point out that the examples you give, while similar, are not identical. The human brain is evolved to see patterns in the world around us (handy for figuring out food sources, predator behavior, etc.). Yes, these things are similar, but not identical. The nautilus grows a new chamber on top of the old ones forming a spiral. Spirals in sunflower seeds pack the most seeds in the smallest space. Galaxies spiral because of gravity (another “theory”). DNA is a helix (not a spiral) because of the angle of its chemical bonds. An interesting pattern of forms, but not a hidden message from the Designer.
7. I’m sorry, but this question is pretty incoherent. What do you mean oxygen doesn’t change? Of course it does. It gets split from its molecular form (O2) into two oxygen atoms which get bound to hydrogen to form water as an end product of cellular respiration. All the reactions that occur in the cell can be broken down into steps. Each step obeys the laws of chemistry and thermodynamics as well as if it were happening in a test tube. It has not “acquired intelligence”, whatever that means.
8. When you say “all at once”, what you really mean is over millions of years. We humans often have trouble with geologic time frames. And remember there is more to variation than just “simple mutation”. There are whole mechanisms in cells to shuffle genes. And look into the concept of punctuated equilibrium. Basically, you have a form that works pretty good and it putts along a few tens of million of years until a variation comes along that takes some (not all) down a new path. Things can move pretty fast along this new path until it reaches a form (more likely forms) that work pretty good and that can putt along for a few more tens of millions of years. This also explains a lot of the so-called gaps in the fossil record. As I said above, fossilization is pretty rare. During the fast times not as many fossils will form as during the tens of millions of years of putting along. So the first birds didn’t necessarily have hollow bones, but you can bet that the ones with more hollow bones quickly out competed the ones with less hollow bones. And all the other bird traits would come on pretty quickly as this critter evolved into its new lifestyle.
9. Tautology shmautology. Variations that make an organism more likely to reproduce are more likely to be passed on through reproduction. Variations that make an organism less likely to reproduce will less likely be passed on through reproduction. You play the percentages over a few hundred thousand years and you’ve got evolution! THAT’s what survival of the fittest means. It is beautifully self-regulating. Dodos and kiwis developed the traits that made them more likely to reproduce in their environments (remote islands with few predators). They would putt along until a new variation arose or until the environment changed (like the arrival of hungry humans, poor dodos). Oh, by the way, iron and hydrogen are atoms, not molecules (OK, hydrogen gas is a molecule, but not by itself). Big difference, and shows your weakness in chemistry and after all, biology is pretty much applied chemistry.
10. Here I suggest you read a wonderful book called “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins. It doesn’t matter if the worker bee dies when it stings while protecting the hive. Worker bees themselves do not reproduce. All their reproduction is done through the queen and the drones (the males, which do have sex, if they’re lucky; it’s the workers who can’t have sex, OK?). By protecting them, the worker’s genes get passed on to the next generation.
11. Here again, you are not very clear on your facts. Before flowering plants, there was wind pollination (still practiced very effectively by conifers today). Flowering plants probably evolved around the very fact of insect aided pollination. Remember I said evolution had to take place in the midst of the biological environment as well as the physical environment. Organisms evolve in response to other organisms evolving. Symbioses make perfect sense when you stop looking at the organism as separate from its neighbors.
12. First of all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (I’m sure you expected that). The bird-of-paradise has brilliant plumage to attract a mate. The chameleon has camouflage to avoid predators and sneak up on prey. These are totally different functions, therefore it is your logic that is flawed when you say they can not both be survival mechanisms. Of course they can. That is the real beauty of evolution: that there are so many different ways to do the same thing, namely, get you genes to the next generation. And who are you to judge what organisms are “non-beautiful”. I’m sure their mothers would disagree.
Not only did I read all your points, I had to respond. The whole problem with the debate is people who don’t have a reasonable grasp of the issue. I’m sorry, but it is clear from the fuzzy logic you employ that you don’t. You, like many others, seem particularly troubled by “randomness”. If it will help, think of this. If a storm blows down your neighbor’s house, but leaves yours intact, is it random chance or the Hand of God? I submit to you that random chance is indistinguishable from the Hand of God. That’s not to say that God does not act in the world, but that it is indistinguishable from random chance. (reference Futurama: God says, ”When you do things right, nobody will be sure you’ve done anything at all”). I look forward to your responses to your own points. Maybe you’ll do better the second time ‘round.

Hey Tom Haddon. I read your blog. As a "scientist" (18 years in various areas of environmental science) you did a fine job for a "non-scientist". Keep questioning. Asking questions is more important than getting answers.

All of this.

All of this has no image.
That is there is, no mirror.
It is you that is.

The lady on your program is talking about Science excluding the role of God because of adherence to methodology.

Enlightened souls know that the method is inherent in the search for higher spiritual core values. The path is the way.

The path of critical analysis is the same pursuit of one's inner goal in striving to be better and actualized within this world. The path is the goal. The scientific method adheres to this path.

The distinction only exisits in words, the symoblic value of each is the same within the spirit of the words used to define each.

deepak, i think the best part of the discussion was when you told pastor john macarthur that he was more-or-less an idiot. seriously, you did a terrific job of maintaining your composure when he tried to use your intelligence against you. you quickly explained what you meant and then punched the ball back into his court saying you don't expect him to get it. it was an easy point to comprehend and he wanted to dismiss it. i also enjoyed you finishing his sentence that he only looks to the bible. i really wish there had been more time. it's such a disservice to rely on mere sound-bytes, so thank you for providing much more here.

ooh, the senator just put it to that pastor and you were blunt and stepped to the plate again. at least this sound-byte battle was entertaining. thank you.

Mr. Chopra,
You were awesome on the show. I agree with everything you say and revel in the idea that there is so much we don't know, but we are able to learn about it if we ask the right questions and stay open minded and keep enjoying the journey. Mr. Shay was also admirable as a Christian in supporting not teaching Intelligent Design. I had to laugh (shame on me) at the Christian Fundie being so combative and closed-minded. Every time he spoke, I kept hearing in my mind, Case in point! as to why this needs to stay out of public school classrooms. May the force be with you Mr. Chopra. You have been my hero for years! I still don't know how to make my gray hairs go away yet, but I keep trying!

When evolutionist speak about missing link, think about what they are saying. The evidence is not there, I don't know how to link one species to another, I don't know how to explain my belief but I'll call it missing link and make it sound as if it's a genuine scientific term when I speak it over and over again. Here's an established study of science. Stoichemsitry found by Louis Pastuer. Yes the same guy known for the pastuerization process used with the milk we drink. He concluded that life can only come from life not inorganic matter.

Science tries to explain how things in the World work and function. It does this through methodology and testing. It has general application, religion is nothing more than a story that has passed down to explain what Science cannot.

If we are to believe the story of Creationism, then we are as innocent as those religious biggots who believed the world was not round. Grow up... allow our kids to actually develop their minds rather than inhibiting them with something as false as the belief in Santa Clause

Mr. Chopra,
You were awesome on the show. I agree with everything you say and revel in the idea that there is so much we don't know, but we are able to learn about it if we ask the right questions and stay open minded and keep enjoying the journey. Mr. Shays was also admirable as a Christian in supporting not teaching Intelligent Design. I had to laugh (shame on me) at the Christian Fundie being so combative and closed-minded. Every time he spoke, I kept hearing in my mind, Case in point! as to why this needs to stay out of public school classrooms. May the force be with you Mr. Chopra. You have been my hero for years! I still don't know how to make my gray hairs go away yet, but I keep trying!

Science tries to explain how things in the World work and function. It does this through methodology and testing. It has general application, religion is nothing more than a story that has passed down to explain what Science cannot.

If we are to believe the story of Creationism, then we are as innocent as those religious biggots who believed the world was not round. Grow up... allow our kids to actually develop their minds rather than inhibiting them with something as false as the belief in Santa Clause

When evolutionist speak about missing link, think about what they are saying. The evidence is not there, I don't know how to link one species to another, I don't know how to explain my belief but I'll call it missing link and make it sound as if it's a genuine scientific term when I speak it over and over again. Here's an established study of science. Stoichemsitry found by Louis Pastuer. Yes the same guy known for the pastuerization process used with the milk we drink. He concluded that life can only come from life not inorganic matter.

Science tries to explain how things in the World work and function. It does this through methodology and testing. It has general application, religion is nothing more than a story that has passed down to explain what Science cannot.

If we are to believe the story of Creationism, then we are as innocent as those religious biggots who believed the world was not round. Grow up... allow our kids to actually develop their minds rather than inhibiting them with something as false as the belief in Santa Clause

Where is the connection between life being complicated and the idea of an intelligent designer. There is no proof, no evidence no testable hypothesis. It would be no less accurate to state that since life is so complex it must have been created in a giant factory in outer space-or any other idea grasped from thin air. Why does the christian view of creation become the logical answer? What would these people say if we proposed that the teaching of the giant outer space factory theory should have equal status to evolution in science classes. What of other religions creation theories? Get real- this is a very obvious attempt to use junk science to promote one particular religious view. Completely inappropriate for government to condone on any level. What ever happened to critical thinking. We are slipping back into the dark ages.

I find all this so fascinating. It's almost like the universe is giving birth. When you speak of the change in scales, skin, feathers, it's similar to the wonders of how cells know to divide into the organs, tissue, brain cells, etc in an embryo. Our bodies have cells that can be disruptive as well as the earth and universe. As intelligent as every cell is so it seems is the cosmos. There was a lot in this article that I had never thought of before,that make the journey that much more fascinating!!!

christians scare me more than any other "organized" religion. Why can people not separate faith and spirituality from politics and religion.....

Science tries to explain how things in the World work and function. It does this through methodology and testing. It has general application, religion is nothing more than a story that has passed down to explain what Science cannot.

If we are to believe the story of Creationism, then we are as innocent as those religious biggots who believed the world was not round. Grow up... allow our kids to actually develop their minds rather than inhibiting them with something as false as the belief in Santa Clause

You are a brave man having comment on your blog Mr. Chopra, lol. I'm totally insync with your beliefs and thought you did well on Larry King tonight! I will follow your blog on this matter. Kudos for opening up the comments.

Where is the connection between life being complicated and the idea of an intelligent designer. There is no proof, no evidence no testable hypothesis. It would be no less accurate to state that since life is so complex it must have been created in a giant factory in outer space-or any other idea grasped from thin air. Why does the christian view of creation become the logical answer? What would these people say if we proposed that the teaching of the giant outer space factory theory should have equal status to evolution in science classes. What of other religions creation theories? Get real- this is a very obvious attempt to use junk science to promote one particular religious view. Completely inappropriate for government to condone on any level. What ever happened to critical thinking. We are slipping back into the dark ages.

christians scare me more than any other "organized" religion. Why can people not separate faith and spirituality from politics and religion.....

Excellent show. Just watched it. It was a test of willpower, but enjoyable debate nonetheless. I want to address each of your questions carefully, so I will post responses to them soon, thank you for being you and being on larry king!

I can't believe this conversation is taking place!! If the U.S. wants to compete in a world market, our schools must be academically superior. How can our students gain academic superiority if they have to discuss God and creationism instead in place of actual science? This is just a way to get religion -- Christianity, precisely -- into the classroom. Just another way to let non-Christians know we are merely tolerated, but not wanted.

If you took all the parts needed to build a computer and closed them inside the case, how long would you have to wait or how many times would you have to shake it before it would become a working, bootable computer?

God's creation is much more complex than a computer.

People need to understand the "eternal" nature of God... and that God is outside time. There is no "next moment" with God he sees all time as a flat surface... time in it's entirity from begining to end.

Forgive me....

Is anyone concerned with the connection between the frighteningly unchecked rise of fundamentalist christianity in American, and what has begun to look like the seeds of an Islamic Republic in Iraq?? Does anyone else see that Mr. Bush has sold his soul to the fundamentalists of religion in America, and so he is hard pressed, now, to "push back" on certain Shite elements that demand a role for Islam in a new Iraqi constitution?? This on a day when a prominent American fundamentalist christian (Pat Roberts) called for the assasination of a soveriegn world leader, and Mr. Bush has yet to publicly denounce that call? What are we doing here? Are we all sheep being led by the nose? Why don't we rise as a majority and demand that Mr. Bush denounce Pat Robertson, as well as the shenanigans that took place at the close of the Iraqi congress session, last night??!!

The Reverand made a serious and unforgivable error. In Genesis, the word for day is Yom (Hebrew). The days referred to before the sun was not created was not defined as 24 hrs as the Reverand declared. Learned Hebrew scholars had declared that the days referred to could have been thousands and thousands of years.

If the fundamentalist preacher doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know about basic Biblical scholarship.

Mr. Chopra,
You were awesome on the show. I agree with everything you say and revel in the idea that there is so much we don't know, but we are able to learn about it if we ask the right questions and stay open minded and keep enjoying the journey. Mr. Shays was also admirable as a Christian in supporting not teaching Intelligent Design. I had to laugh (shame on me) at the Christian Fundie being so combative and closed-minded. Every time he spoke, I kept hearing in my mind, Case in point! as to why this needs to stay out of public school classrooms. May the force be with you Mr. Chopra. You have been my hero for years! I still don't know how to make my gray hairs go away yet, but I keep trying!

Point #2: The reason we find primarily "positive" mutations is because they (obviously) out-survive detrimental mutations by an enormous factor. Kelly's 5th law: Positive mutations will outway detrimental mutations (ultimately, as in the fossil record) in a relationship that is directly inversely proportional to the % of "good" versus "bad" mutations. In other words, if there is only one beneficial mutation for every one million detrimental mutations, the population will eventually be replaced by that "good" mutation by the same ratio.

christians scare me more than any other "organized" religion. Why can people not separate faith and spirituality from politics and religion.....

If you took all the parts needed to build a computer and closed them inside the case, how long would you have to wait or how many times would you have to shake it before it would become a working, bootable computer?

God's creation is much more complex than a computer.

People need to understand the "eternal" nature of God... and that God is outside time. There is no "next moment" with God he sees all time as a flat surface... time in it's entirity from begining to end.

Forgive me....

If you intend to discuss "intelligent Design" or even evolution as a "begiinning". Then you must actually focus on the beginning. If you leave out all forms of matter and set aside life itself, where did the space it all takes place in come from? The universe itself that is?
Face it. It takes more faith to believe we started out as premordial slime than it does to believe in God. Evolution is just the beginning of a failed argument on how this world began.

I can't believe this conversation is taking place!! If the U.S. wants to compete in a world market, our schools must be academically superior. How can our students gain academic superiority if they have to discuss God and creationism instead in place of actual science? This is just a way to get religion -- Christianity, precisely -- into the classroom. Just another way to let non-Christians know we are merely tolerated, but not wanted.

is it possible that there is information out there that we couldn't possibly understand. is there info more complex than a human mind can understand because if so that could explain how an intelligent designer came into being.
its really to bad that many people seem to not be concerned with the truth but the appearance of the truth.
with evolution, i heard it best from dr dino (kent hovind) that there is no way you could prove of fossil of and animal or human had kids. there is no way to prove that over time monkeys evolved into man.
anyone with a mind can see that a building is proof that there was a builder or painting is proof that there is a painter, ray comfort says it best,"you couldn't want better proof.
its amazing people will continue to doubt God's existence, however is explained in the bible that a fool will doubt the existence of God.

There is a good reason why the founding fathers did not include religion as part of the US Constitution while building the foundation of this strong and democratic country.

This is a dangerous road to tread on. You only have to look at several failed States around the world that have inter-mingled religion, the state, the judiciary and the constitution; and learn that the best place for religion is outside of politics and a well-functioning democracy.

Why can't we enjoy nature, marvel at its creativity, learn from its various complexities and accept that no matter what, some questions will always go unanswered?

Deepak,

With respect, I stopped reading after your second point because it became painfully obvious that you do not understand evolutionary theory. Point one is completely incorrect/misleading, but would take a while to explain, so I'll limit myself to number two.

"2. If mutations are random, why does the fossil record demonstrate so many positive mutations--those that lead to new species--and so few negative ones? Random chance should produce useless mutations thousands of times more often than positive ones."

You are correct about one thing: mutations are overwhelmingly negative or useless. The answer to your question is natural selection, which is also why evolution does not work by "random chance." Mutation is random, evolution is not. Through the process of natural selection, which we can observe today in nature and in human society, negative mutations simply do not survive/reproduce. That is the simple reason why we do not see fossil evidence of negative mutations.

I mean no offense, because I greatly respect some of your work, but you demonstrate complete ignorance of the most basic tenets of evolutionary theory. I suggest you read up before putting forth more weak and easily refuted arguments on this topic.

Open letter to Christianity. STOP RAMMING YOUR BELIEFS DOWN EVERYONES THROAT! Everyone is welcome to their own beliefs, but it is wrong to try and force those on the rest of society.

Why do we never hear about teaching Muslim, Hindu or American Indian theory of intelligent design in our schools? It appears to always be Christan based. So the real issue promoting a specific religion, not
education.

Now Deepak: That was not fair! Barbara got lost in the "Forrest" of her DNA and "The Pastor,"--now Deepak--didn't Maa and Daddy teach you that it is not fair "to have a battle of wits with unarmed people!"

For some reason--I seem to be sensing the echo of those two parents laughing uncontrollably about "the Pastor's points about getting that 'six-day' theme correct," lest they be unable to assist your soul out of the "pot-of-quantum-soup" you just stirred up with that impish and devilish grinning going on--the media and your audience did not miss those humorous smiles I might add!!

That was way too "cool for school," but Barbara is right about the fact that high school science teachers are already overburdened and have no business teaching any of your positions, particulary about "the Observer," in high school science!

Those "observed scientific facts" should be taught at the kindergarten and elementary levels so that by the time these students have gotten to high school--they have been allowed to develop the abilities to open up the "genetic software" locked away in the DNA going unused in the other 90% of the brain and nervous system.

To be followed by Pat Robertson's "political postitions" was icing on an already immensely humorous cake--in all seriousness!!! Thanks for the great Tuesday night Deepak! Dave

The Reverand made a serious and unforgivable error. In Genesis, the word for day is Yom (Hebrew). The days referred to before the sun was not created was not defined as 24 hrs as the Reverand declared. Learned Hebrew scholars had declared that the days referred to could have been thousands and thousands of years.

If the fundamentalist preacher doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know about basic Biblical scholarship.

Intelligent design is really just a revision of the old cosmological fallacy and natural theology. The idea is that one can detect evidences of design in so-called "nature."

I am a college professor and have taught a course called, "Human Evolution and Prehistory." If I were God, and I were going to design life on the earth, I would not choose to do so on the basis of natural selection (Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest).

I accept natural selection on the basis of the evidence, but I see no basis for concluding that natural selection demonstrates design.

Here is my view: Evolution is God's Will. Period. That is not theistic evolution, which generally posits that God micromanages (or actively directs) evolution. It is a nominalist, Ockhamist view of evolution which separates it from theological concerns.

Once again, evolution is God's Will. Period.

Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.
http://markfoster.net

The Reverand made a serious and unforgivable error. In Genesis, the word for day is Yom (Hebrew). The days referred to before the sun was not created was not defined as 24 hrs as the Reverand declared. Learned Hebrew scholars had declared that the days referred to could have been thousands and thousands of years.

If the fundamentalist preacher doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know about basic Biblical scholarship.

Deepak, yours was a voice of reason tonight in the debate and I believe had the science teacher momentarily speechless when discussing the observed vs. the observer (though I think she could add intelligently to that discussion, but thought it too advanced for a high school audience). Evolutionary Psychology ofcourse asks the same questions that you posit: What about the evolution of the consciousness of consciousness? How did we evolve our sense of sensing ourselves? It was a worthwhile program altogether. I wish you would have agreed with her more on the methodology of science; to give the woman balance. But thanks for what you did contribute. Wm Dembski and his ilk are very dangerous to the American educational system!

WWW.RAMTHA.COM Expand your consciousness people, stop living in ignorance of your life, and how everything works in your life.

It is plan and simple you create your very life with the thoughts you send out into the Universe. You create your reality, Consciousness and energy are the driving force of all reality.

Common Thought chooses our destiny!!!!!

You should also know that what I have learned is we can only demonstrate what we are capable of demonstrating. And if you would say, well, what is blocking me from doing that, the only block that we have is our LACK to SURRENDER, our ability to surrender, our ability to allow, and our ability to support ourself even in the face of our own neurological or neuronet doubt.

You are GOD, A divine action upon a plane of demonstation to bring forth the unknown.

For free Introduction to Ramtha's Anicent School of Wisdom click here to receive a completely free DVD video sent to your house!

http://ramtha.com/cgi-bin/email/beginner-packet.asp

Enjoy your journey people!

Oh and if my brother Deepak Chopra is reading this I'd be glad to get in further contact with you sometime, if you have the time, which you should since we are eternal beings if you understand that!

Expand your consciousness, or ignorance will be your demise.

Observer: It refers to the Observer responsible for collapsing the particle/wave of quantum mechanics. It represents the true self, the Spirit, primary consciousness, the God within the human person!

Actually Dale - if the Big Bang is the start of our universe as we know it, surely the explanation to how it began (from nothing) is not necessary. This is because before the Big Bang it is likely that the laws of physics and time were completely differet. I understand that we lack concrete evidence... but then again religious explanations to how things work or exist have been constantly adapted. Unlike Science - which works on theories and data, religion is absolute, creationists will not flex their views - similar I might add to Christians who believed that the World was in the center of the Universe. How are can we teach our kids to be that insular and uncompromising.

Intelligent design is really just a revision of the old cosmological fallacy and natural theology. The idea is that one can detect evidences of design in so-called "nature."

I am a college professor and have taught a course called, "Human Evolution and Prehistory." If I were God, and I were going to design life on the earth, I would not choose to do so on the basis of natural selection (Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest).

I accept natural selection on the basis of the evidence, but I see no basis for concluding that natural selection demonstrates design.

Here is my view: Evolution is God's Will. Period. That is not theistic evolution, which generally posits that God micromanages (or actively directs) evolution. It is a nominalist, Ockhamist view of evolution which separates it from theological concerns.

Once again, evolution is God's Will. Period.

Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.
http://markfoster.net

Bravo Deepak. I've up with a few of the same questions that Darwinism cannot answer.

I'm glad that this intelligent discussion can occur, and only wish it would occur more often in public schools. I believe that critical thinking is sorely lacking in American public schools. It seems that high schools are afraid to ask their students to do much independent critical thinking, and leave students unprepared for college.

Just my 2 cents

WWW.RAMTHA.COM Expand your consciousness people, stop living in ignorance of your life, and how everything works in your life.

It is plan and simple you create your very life with the thoughts you send out into the Universe. You create your reality, Consciousness and energy are the driving force of all reality.

Common Thought chooses our destiny!!!!!

You should also know that what I have learned is we can only demonstrate what we are capable of demonstrating. And if you would say, well, what is blocking me from doing that, the only block that we have is our LACK to SURRENDER, our ability to surrender, our ability to allow, and our ability to support ourself even in the face of our own neurological or neuronet doubt.

You are GOD, A divine action upon a plane of demonstation to bring forth the unknown.

For free Introduction to Ramtha's Anicent School of Wisdom click here to receive a completely free DVD video sent to your house!

http://ramtha.com/cgi-bin/email/beginner-packet.asp

Enjoy your journey people!

Oh and if my brother Deepak Chopra is reading this I'd be glad to get in further contact with you sometime, if you have the time, which you should since we are eternal beings if you understand that!

Expand your consciousness, or ignorance will be your demise.

Observer: It refers to the Observer responsible for collapsing the particle/wave of quantum mechanics. It represents the true self, the Spirit, primary consciousness, the God within the human person!

All I know is that

A)Democracy promotes the right to every person of "Freedom of belief/religeon" and therefore the mere idea should be promoted as an option inside the classroom whether believer or not.

B)When I look at something as obscure and unintelligent (compared to us) as a spider, it almost makes me laugh...But somehow that very spider has a built in knowledge of the very same web pattern (using excellent geometry and mathematics) as all other spiders of the same species.

Anyways, lets not let our emotions play a part in this...but think about it all..

Jewish religion is source for this theory where Adam and Eve got created by GOD some 10,000 years ago. This defy all science that we know.

Bible,Quran follows the Torah (Jewish) book. US is charging that Quran is a book of 6th century. I think Bible and Torah are even older and its right time debate should happen about these books and follower of the books.

Science is the only saviour and not religions.

Outstanding the way you debated the Pastor. Why don't you 2 get your own show, kinda like a religious Crossfire?

it is obvious the power of the fundamental Christians. they can push through their agenda, anytime, anywhere, on this whole planet we call Earth.

Some of this reminds me of a probability paradox I've been thinking about...it goes like this:

Say your parents never met...we can say then that you would never have been born, right? And it's also true if your grandparents -- on both sides, had not met each other, you would not have been born. Same all the way back, doubling each time/4 people/8/16/32/64/128 etc--so one can say that the "odds" of "you" (the reader) ever being born were incredibly slim! And so you should consider yourself very lucky...

But this is also true for everyone--so in a sense, we all seem to have incredibly--amazingly--beaten the odds of ever having to be born. But this seems to be way too low a probabibility to be a likely explanation for why we are here...In other words, if the odds were 100 million to one for you to ever be born (that is if any one of your ancestors never met his/her mate) then the odds applied to the billions who live now are incalculably small...

So, if it seems that probability makes it incredibly unlikely that we could all be here, perhaps another way to look at it is not that we all won an incredible lottery--trillions to one--but that it was the opposite--that the odds of all of us being here were 100%...some other greater unseen force is at work...

Thoughts? Comments?

All I know is that

A)Democracy promotes the right to every person of "Freedom of belief/religeon" and therefore the mere idea should be promoted as an option inside the classroom whether believer or not.

B)When I look at something as obscure and unintelligent (compared to us) as a spider, it almost makes me laugh...But somehow that very spider has a built in knowledge of the very same web pattern (using excellent geometry and mathematics) as all other spiders of the same species.

Anyways, lets not let our emotions play a part in this...but think about it all..

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

All I know is that

A)Democracy promotes the right to every person of "Freedom of belief/religeon" and therefore the mere idea should be promoted as an option inside the classroom whether believer or not.

B)When I look at something as obscure and unintelligent (compared to us) as a spider, it almost makes me laugh...But somehow that very spider has a built in knowledge of the very same web pattern (using excellent geometry and mathematics) as all other spiders of the same species.

Anyways, lets not let our emotions play a part in this...but think about it all..

Intelligent design is really just a revision of the old cosmological fallacy and natural theology. The idea is that one can detect evidences of design in so-called "nature."

I am a college professor and have taught a course called, "Human Evolution and Prehistory." If I were God, and I were going to design life on the earth, I would not choose to do so on the basis of natural selection (Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest).

I accept natural selection on the basis of the evidence, but I see no basis for concluding that natural selection demonstrates design.

Here is my view: Evolution is God's Will. Period. That is not theistic evolution, which generally posits that God micromanages (or actively directs) evolution. It is a nominalist, Ockhamist view of evolution which separates it from theological concerns.

Once again, evolution is God's Will. Period.

Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.
http://markfoster.net

I think we forget the story of adam and eve. what makes us of the flesh imagine that we are even at the forefront of a mind that can understand ourselfs or the world in which we live. "every kingdom divided aganst itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided aganst itself will not stand"

Deepak, I had heard of you before the interview with King but I didn't really have a knowledge of who you were, so I did some research, interestingly enough you seem intensely interested in Bhagavad Gita, which I have just spent a few weeks analyzing, through the vested interest of Ralph Waldo Emerson... in any event, that coincidence just sparked my interest.

On the topic of intelligent design, it's difficult for me to imagine what kind of a cirriculumn would be manifested to teach the topic, if it is merely a means to bring up the controversy of Religion vs. Science, I don't really see it having a place in the classroom. That being said if Intelligent Design and it's advocates don't get a share, I don't see why Evolution should be taught either, as you have so humbly stated above, there are missing pieces to this big puzzle of ours.

The truth is that humanity is limited, fallible, it's one of the agnostic strengths of Christianity, to state that humans are imperfect. Darwin was a focused individual who may have benefited from opening himself up to some theological consideration. We have limited viewpoints and it's one of humanity's grave errors to believe itself to be much superior than other species, because in limiting their evolution (which I sincerely believe, that humans are @ fault for the stunting of other species progress) we have limited our own to a much more narrow perspective.

If we were indeed created or "designed" by some external entity, then that force must have indeed harbored some considerable intelligence, that can go without mentioning HOWEVER, this also must be examined as far as what use the designer would serve inside of our daily tidings. If a God does exist, it obviously doesn't want it's presence discovered by humanity unanimously, but rather selectively... it is important to consider our origins both scientifically and meta-cognitively, but these considerations for the majority of young people aged 5-18 is a little much, I propose America solve the current problems in education before moving on to new ones.

These questions of "Do we have a soul?" "What does it all mean?" "What kind of a God is 'out there"? Are all prompted to humans living the United States that have a genuine drive to learn about them, usually this comes about from the usage of Enthogens immediately following High School
-z

Intelligent design is really just a revision of the old cosmological fallacy and natural theology. The idea is that one can detect evidences of design in so-called "nature."

I am a college professor and have taught a course called, "Human Evolution and Prehistory." If I were God, and I were going to design life on the earth, I would not choose to do so on the basis of natural selection (Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest).

I accept natural selection on the basis of the evidence, but I see no basis for concluding that natural selection demonstrates design.

Here is my view: Evolution is God's Will. Period. That is not theistic evolution, which generally posits that God micromanages (or actively directs) evolution. It is a nominalist, Ockhamist view of evolution which separates it from theological concerns.

Once again, evolution is God's Will. Period.

Mark A. Foster, Ph.D.
http://markfoster.net

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

Propose teaching a non christian creation theory disguised as science (just as intelligent design disguises teaching of christian creation theory) and watch the evangelicals protest. They are not proposing teaching all possible theories, just their own.

You can not give equal weight to 2 theories when one has overwhelming evidence behind it (evolution) and the other has just unsupported assumptions (intelligent design).

The bible can not be given as supporting evidence as it is a very old work which is likely fiction.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Deepak, I had heard of you before the interview with King but I didn't really have a knowledge of who you were, so I did some research, interestingly enough you seem intensely interested in Bhagavad Gita, which I have just spent a few weeks analyzing, through the vested interest of Ralph Waldo Emerson... in any event, that coincidence just sparked my interest.

On the topic of intelligent design, it's difficult for me to imagine what kind of a cirriculumn would be manifested to teach the topic, if it is merely a means to bring up the controversy of Religion vs. Science, I don't really see it having a place in the classroom. That being said if Intelligent Design and it's advocates don't get a share, I don't see why Evolution should be taught either, as you have so humbly stated above, there are missing pieces to this big puzzle of ours.

The truth is that humanity is limited, fallible, it's one of the agnostic strengths of Christianity, to state that humans are imperfect. Darwin was a focused individual who may have benefited from opening himself up to some theological consideration. We have limited viewpoints and it's one of humanity's grave errors to believe itself to be much superior than other species, because in limiting their evolution (which I sincerely believe, that humans are @ fault for the stunting of other species progress) we have limited our own to a much more narrow perspective.

If we were indeed created or "designed" by some external entity, then that force must have indeed harbored some considerable intelligence, that can go without mentioning HOWEVER, this also must be examined as far as what use the designer would serve inside of our daily tidings. If a God does exist, it obviously doesn't want it's presence discovered by humanity unanimously, but rather selectively... it is important to consider our origins both scientifically and meta-cognitively, but these considerations for the majority of young people aged 5-18 is a little much, I propose America solve the current problems in education before moving on to new ones.

These questions of "Do we have a soul?" "What does it all mean?" "What kind of a God is 'out there"? Are all prompted to humans living the United States that have a genuine drive to learn about them, usually this comes about from the usage of Enthogens immediately following High School
-z

Deepak, you did a fantasitic job. Also, you said it beautifully: "the evolution of our consciousness and the evolution of our consciousness of our consciousness"......he (John MacArthur sp? ) didn't get it so he tried to knock it.
I do wish, however, that you had had more air time.
I hope you are taking good care of yourself.....it looks like you've lost weight....God bless you Deepak and thank you for all you do

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

"...by asking them (our questions) honestly, without foregone conclusions..." The ability/freedom to consider an idea from any perspective we choose for as long as we choose seems to frighten some folks.

Deepak, I had heard of you before the interview with King but I didn't really have a knowledge of who you were, so I did some research, interestingly enough you seem intensely interested in Bhagavad Gita, which I have just spent a few weeks analyzing, through the vested interest of Ralph Waldo Emerson... in any event, that coincidence just sparked my interest.

On the topic of intelligent design, it's difficult for me to imagine what kind of a cirriculumn would be manifested to teach the topic, if it is merely a means to bring up the controversy of Religion vs. Science, I don't really see it having a place in the classroom. That being said if Intelligent Design and it's advocates don't get a share, I don't see why Evolution should be taught either, as you have so humbly stated above, there are missing pieces to this big puzzle of ours.

The truth is that humanity is limited, fallible, it's one of the agnostic strengths of Christianity, to state that humans are imperfect. Darwin was a focused individual who may have benefited from opening himself up to some theological consideration. We have limited viewpoints and it's one of humanity's grave errors to believe itself to be much superior than other species, because in limiting their evolution (which I sincerely believe, that humans are @ fault for the stunting of other species progress) we have limited our own to a much more narrow perspective.

If we were indeed created or "designed" by some external entity, then that force must have indeed harbored some considerable intelligence, that can go without mentioning HOWEVER, this also must be examined as far as what use the designer would serve inside of our daily tidings. If a God does exist, it obviously doesn't want it's presence discovered by humanity unanimously, but rather selectively... it is important to consider our origins both scientifically and meta-cognitively, but these considerations for the majority of young people aged 5-18 is a little much, I propose America solve the current problems in education before moving on to new ones.

These questions of "Do we have a soul?" "What does it all mean?" "What kind of a God is 'out there"? Are all prompted to humans living the United States that have a genuine drive to learn about them, usually this comes about from the usage of Enthogens immediately following High School
-z

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

late--must ask Course in Miracles question--only very quickly glanced over deepak's'"int. design w/o bible" and commentbloggers' comments above [therefore no right to comment?--but will anyway]--one (of many/infinite) possiblities not discussed on L. King is theory "explanation" expressed in A Course in Miracles. Deepak/Dr. Chopra, I do recall your quoting from the Course (in a positive sense, if I interpreted you properly)one "lesson" (of many) from the Course: "Today I shall judge nothing that occurs" (although no cite to Course). I respect your books/tapes much-would love to hear your thoughts on Course------very best (great job on L King--my but you're getting forceful/aggressive (good--[I guess] as they talk over you constantly [but does your reaction/response first require you to "judge" them?) Honest question--not trying to be smart aleck. very best...clay

CREATIONISTS are merely explaining the unexplained with A FICTIONAL STORY that has NO EVIDENCE. They have done this HISTORICALLY as a method of CONTROL.

CREATIONISM HAS NO EVIDENCE, NOR A POSSIBLE TEST so it cannot be included in SCIENCE.

SCIENCE is a rational subject that is OPEN TO CHANGE. RELIGION IS ABSOLUTE AND UNCOMPROMISING. It HINDERS kids NATURAL PROGRESSION because it BLINDS them of the actual WORLD.

Instead of trying to following MYTHICAL DEPICTIONS of the beginning of LIFE - why don't Christians (especially) focus more of their TIME into EDUCATING and UNDERSTANDING.

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issues in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

I thought you did wonderfully on the show! Good job. I do, however, second the recommendation someone else posted about Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene."

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

late--must ask Course in Miracles question--only very quickly glanced over deepak's'"int. design w/o bible" and commentbloggers' comments above [therefore no right to comment?--but will anyway]--one (of many/infinite) possiblities not discussed on L. King is theory "explanation" expressed in A Course in Miracles. Deepak/Dr. Chopra, I do recall your quoting from the Course (in a positive sense, if I interpreted you properly)one "lesson" (of many) from the Course: "Today I shall judge nothing that occurs" (although no cite to Course). I respect your books/tapes much-would love to hear your thoughts on Course------very best (great job on L King--my but you're getting forceful/aggressive (good--[I guess] as they talk over you constantly [but does your reaction/response first require you to "judge" them?) Honest question--not trying to be smart aleck. very best...clay

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Saw the program tonight . . . thanks for bringing some intelligence to the discussion.
They are pushing for an either/or agenda and
the issues are so much larger. Quantum physics
needs to be taught at the high school level and
people can make their own judments when they see where science and philosophy interact. Show people the ever evolving research and let them decide on the spiritual implications of the findings. Religious fundamentalism must not hijack the educational process . . . isn't that the problem with many areas of the mid-east? We must keep church and state separate if we are to grow and evolve.
Thanks for giving the address to this site at the
end of the show! Donna

I find the difference in creation view of the Fundamental Christians vs. the Orthodox Christians to be very surprising.

The Fundamental view as shown on tonights show is very strange to the Orthodox Christian. Most probably because the Orthodox have Tradition along with scripture and the Fundamental Christian's base their view totally on scripture alone.

Therefore small errors such as attempting to put a 24hr timeframe to a day before there was a sun rear their heads.

Forgive me...

www.orthodoxtupelo.com

After listening to everybody on Larry King, all I can say is that society really does not know anything, and any speculation is just opinion in one form or another.

My opinion is that I don't know enough yet to answer the question: Why am I here?

Having just toured the Pompeii exhibit in Ottawa, maybe the world is just a campus to learn things like "Don't live under the shadow of a volcano" and other such useful tidbits to know. Maybe we are in a school learning the difference between science and religion. Who knows eh? It is tough, but not impossible, to live with those zealots who know it all. :-)

Cheers, Al

I thought you did wonderfully on the show! Good job. I do, however, second the recommendation someone else posted about Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene."

Hi everyone reading this - I enjoyed the Larry King program tonight and thought that Deepak had the best points as far as scientific facts and where we need to go. I just read a book called The Quantum Gods by Jeff Love and anyone interested in the origin and nature of matter and consciousness might be very interested in this book. It is quite a fascinating read on this subject. Thanks for letting the audience know about this blog, Deepak - I never would have known about it!

I have a few questions I would like ask Christians.

First, is the Earth flat?

Does the Sun revolve around the Earth?

Is the Earth only about 6000 years old?

Are Dinosaurs a hoax even though we have used carbon dating to trace them back millions of years?

Is it horribly wrong for two people of the same sex to love one another and to live a life together?

Also, the Pastor on Larry King tonight needs to realize that you can't say that God created this world in 6 days. The preceding questions asides from last have all been proved by science to be false.

As for same sex marriage, I'm not saying that the Church should do the ceremonies but you can't say that it's wrong. When an individual falls in love regardless of wether they're the same sex or not we can't deny them the right to marriage.

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Saw the program tonight . . . thanks for bringing some intelligence to the discussion.
They are pushing for an either/or agenda and
the issues are so much larger. Quantum physics
needs to be taught at the high school level and
people can make their own judments when they see where science and philosophy interact. Show people the ever evolving research and let them decide on the spiritual implications of the findings. Religious fundamentalism must not hijack the educational process . . . isn't that the problem with many areas of the mid-east? We must keep church and state separate if we are to grow and evolve.
Thanks for giving the address to this site at the
end of the show! Donna

Saw the program tonight . . . thanks for bringing some intelligence to the discussion.
They are pushing for an either/or agenda and
the issues are so much larger. Quantum physics
needs to be taught at the high school level and
people can make their own judments when they see where science and philosophy interact. Show people the ever evolving research and let them decide on the spiritual implications of the findings. Religious fundamentalism must not hijack the educational process . . . isn't that the problem with many areas of the mid-east? We must keep church and state separate if we are to grow and evolve.
Thanks for giving the address to this site at the
end of the show! Donna

Basically the assumption is made for us. Can anyone conceive of nothing? No because then they could conceive. So by our very ability to ask the question, we are part of the infinite. Our awareness is only limited by our belief systems. What is to be gained by a fundamentalist christian finite belief system? Basically control, or perceived control. So that is the fundamental issue in my way of thinking. Looking at the world however, The fundamental chritian view has many benefits. The western world with its modern advances grew from the we only go around once in life belief. The eastern phliosophy provides a defined path to greater awareness. Now we see a debate amongst the two. How wonderful. This is truly a milepost in human evolution.

Thoughts and prayers be with you and people of like mind.

coincidences: THERE ARE NO coincidences.... We are all one and all connected thru a higher force that is unknown the most of the Mother Earth at this present moment in time.

BUT The Truth of who we are is slowly but surely emerging from the depths of the ocean.

This is but the tip of the Iceberg people, there is awhole another surface of knowledge await the masses of this world, underneath the water!!!

Enjoy watching this great time in our history unfold infront of our beautiful, divine, universally connected eyes.

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

1- break DNA into smaller segments, its composition is reactive and interactive and from these properties emerges the characteristics of complexity. RNAi is showing this currently as a way of correcting the chain of evolutionary traits by subverting negative DNA traits and by proxy aligned positive traits.

2- this elads to this conclusion that negative traits simply fail to meet the criteria demand for adaptable traits and thus do not replicate enough to be monitored.

3- because sharks kept a constant background for adaptation

4- the course of eons and environment determines the final characteristic' adpative integration into code

5- because some algae had to exist in light free environemnts such as oil seeps

6- the substructures are always inherent, we have bones of no use and it is simply a matter of dormancy instead of negative factors which would constitue threats to reproduction/replication,survival

7- oxygen undergoes a nanomorphosis in which it gains charged properties and then is engineered or simply takes on characterisitics as such that forms the chemical basis for synthesis

8- this is limiting the scope of random and you forget the presence of radiation and other chemical influences in the spectrum of mutation

9- there is a law of cooperative niche fulfillment that is defined as adaptation, a sociological text/background to species continuance

10- androgeny is a trait we have at fetal stages the bees simply were able to maintain strains in this capacity

11- seems as if you're taking an assumption past certain points most likely the smaller environment produced such a strain and geography then spreads such traits out... the insects/birds that feed off certain flowers often carrey seeds/pollinate them in fecal remain or feathers, hairs,ets

12- applying labels of value such as beautiful seems to be an attempt to personify traits and takes no account for the other animal traits and introduction of mutative influences

Actually evolution seems to favor its own theory with less contradictions. Noah had no place for dinosaurs? He found food for all of these animals, each to its range of diet? Not on the spans and dimensions of the shipe he described. Ask any zookeeper.

The symbolic power of the flood story is that 'we are all in the same boat' as the saying goes. (/Clintonism)

Most likely the anthropomorphic influence upon on environment led to paradigm shifts in global climate. Neanderthals using hunter-gather tactics ravaged swaths of woodland which brought with it drought and their way of life(slash and burn) eventually ran wild across dry expanse and the resulting floods for climate heat led to ice advances in reply.

Literally we've shaped/acted upon environment to a large degree and this is a part of the history of species beyond thew scope of written and part of the 'day as a thousand years' eons in which man was yet to emerge from creation and was still in a stage of being a beast with no culture or civillzation, just loose social constructs.

Basically the assumption is made for us. Can anyone conceive of nothing? No because then they could conceive. So by our very ability to ask the question, we are part of the infinite. Our awareness is only limited by our belief systems. What is to be gained by a fundamentalist christian finite belief system? Basically control, or perceived control. So that is the fundamental issue in my way of thinking. Looking at the world however, The fundamental chritian view has many benefits. The western world with its modern advances grew from the we only go around once in life belief. The eastern phliosophy provides a defined path to greater awareness. Now we see a debate amongst the two. How wonderful. This is truly a milepost in human evolution.

I have always wondered why this is a topic for such heated debate.

Genesis 1:2 says:
"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Can no one see what I see? Does this scripture not speak of a black hole? A hole is formless! It's EMPTY! And in this scripture, it's DARK (black)!

Also, in Genesis 1:27, it's says:
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

God has no physical FORM so how could we be created in His PHYSICAL image? An image is exactly that! An image is what you see in your MIND, not the physical presence of a thing. Can we not see that perhaps God created us in His spiritual image (being that He IS spirit)?

Is there no room for us to consider that evolutionism and creationism can co-exist? Could God not have created us in the physical form of an ape, or whatever else science is proving, and just POSSIBLY allowed us to grow in body, mind, and spirit?

I often wonder at the SYSTEMS God has created. The body, the weather, plants "breathing" in carbon dioxide (or is it MONoxide?) and breathing out oxygen while we breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon mon/dioxide. If you ever wondered about science vs. creationism, just read the last chapter of Job 40 and 41. read it slowly and consider.

One more thing........on Larry King tonight, one of the pastors said that the Bible says that God did all His creating in 6 24-hour days. It does NOT say that. It says that He created everything in 6 days......and then later on it says in 2 Peter 3:8 "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Don't be too impressed. I didn't memorize those scriptures. I looked them up online. If I had paraphrased them, this post would have looked a LOT different! :o)

Laurel

When I watched this episode tonight there were some important points that were left out about this debate.
One problem with our debates is we usually side with one side or the other and we tend not to step back and see how both arguments can have a common ground.
Most humans believe in a higher power and
the higher power had some influence in the creation of the earth, or life on earth etc. The problem I have with someone arguing from a Genesis standpoint is it represents a Christian standpoint. Where is the representation from the Hindu, Muslim, Inuit, Buddhist...etc side of the argument? Evolution has scientific origins and has support from all races from all around the world. A human ancestor bone found in Asia has as much scientific significance and on found in Africa.
Darwin should never be dismissed as the theory to end all debates. Darwin never went so far as to discuss the origins of man. Yes, it could lead that way. However, he first observed "Micro evolution" as noticing that the birds in the Galapagos islands were different that ones on the mainland; suggesting adaptation.
I think the real debate should steer clear from Darwin and start asking how life began on earth
There is still no evidence how the double helix (DNA molecule) was created. That is more interesting to me than trying to disprove human origins.
So back to my original question why couldn’t there be Devine intervention and evolution combined??
Is so hard to switch to the thinking that a divine creator had a more passive approach in creating life?? Could evolution have divine or "intelligent roots"
Absolutely.
I just ask that people stop standing behind
"their God" and stop telling others the way things are.
Be more in the "why" and not in the "how".
As for school, show kids the FOSSIL records and let them come to their own "intelligent solutions"

Hi everyone reading this - I enjoyed the Larry King program tonight and thought that Deepak had the best points as far as scientific facts and where we need to go. I just read a book called The Quantum Gods by Jeff Love and anyone interested in the origin and nature of matter and consciousness might be very interested in this book. It is quite a fascinating read on this subject. Thanks for letting the audience know about this blog, Deepak - I never would have known about it!

When I watched this episode tonight there were some important points that were left out about this debate.
One problem with our debates is we usually side with one side or the other and we tend not to step back and see how both arguments can have a common ground.
Most humans believe in a higher power and
the higher power had some influence in the creation of the earth, or life on earth etc. The problem I have with someone arguing from a Genesis standpoint is it represents a Christian standpoint. Where is the representation from the Hindu, Muslim, Inuit, Buddhist...etc side of the argument? Evolution has scientific origins and has support from all races from all around the world. A human ancestor bone found in Asia has as much scientific significance and on found in Africa.
Darwin should never be dismissed as the theory to end all debates. Darwin never went so far as to discuss the origins of man. Yes, it could lead that way. However, he first observed "Micro evolution" as noticing that the birds in the Galapagos islands were different that ones on the mainland; suggesting adaptation.
I think the real debate should steer clear from Darwin and start asking how life began on earth
There is still no evidence how the double helix (DNA molecule) was created. That is more interesting to me than trying to disprove human origins.
So back to my original question why couldn’t there be Devine intervention and evolution combined??
Is so hard to switch to the thinking that a divine creator had a more passive approach in creating life?? Could evolution have divine or "intelligent roots"
Absolutely.
I just ask that people stop standing behind
"their God" and stop telling others the way things are.
Be more in the "why" and not in the "how".
As for school, show kids the FOSSIL records and let them come to their own "intelligent solutions"

YOUR COMMENTS ON LARRY KING WERE INTERESTING. I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HEARD MORE OF YOU. I would be interested in the study of intelligent design, taking all theology out of the discussion. It could be studied scientifically.

Somebody else observed that science is the discovery of how the laws of God work in creation and evolution is a theory where man makes a monkey of himself.

I like the intelligent scientific point of you, great analysis. What is most critical issue in this short life?
The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the approbation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I loved the CNN discussion tonight. When Larry asked the question "Who created the Creator?" Deepak had the only intelligent answer. Something to the effect that when we pass the Quantum level to the nonlocal level we have a very different idea of "God."

Having a panel of laymen, politicians and clergy discuss the merits of the theory of evolution makes about as much sense as having them debate the theory of relativity or thermodynamics. I look forward to equal time when a congressman, gym teacher and used car salesman discuss the teachings of the gospel.

I was not in the best spirits this evening as I was reminding myself of what's missing in my life. I had a thought of putting on Larry King Live (and even a sub-thought told me that maybe a profound and inspiring topic would be covered). I was hoping it would be Deepak Chopra. Indeed it was...It was a coincidence that I needed at the time. The staunch Christian views expressed by the other guests limited what Mr. Chopra could say. So Iam glad that in the last few moments, he blurted out this website for those wanting to hear what he had to say. Frankly, Deepak Chopra needs to be on the show ALONE because the past few shows on Larry King have been with him defending his point of view to Orthodox Christians. There really is no point of a debate as Deepak focusses more on spirituality and not religion. I look forward to reading your comments tomorrow. Thank You.

Deepak, I always love listening you talk on Larry King Live. It is interesting to watch the exchange between you and Pastor John Macarthur. I know exactly how you feel. I have sat many times in the Grace Community Church wanting to challenge Macarthur on the hard-headed assumptions and fear mongering speech that he spews. As a Christian at another church in Los Angeles, I appreciate the open-minded and positive discussion brought about by you and Wayne Dyer. Many times before I have listened to you I have thought about "heaven" and "hell" being states of consciousness here on earth. I have had dreams that have told me this is so. As a loyal Christian, I also believe that there is merit to your research and theories that attempt to explain our existence. I will be keeping my eye on you! Keep up the good work! Sincerely, JC

Saw the program tonight . . . thanks for bringing some intelligence to the discussion.
They are pushing for an either/or agenda and
the issues are so much larger. Quantum physics
needs to be taught at the high school level and
people can make their own judments when they see where science and philosophy interact. Show people the ever evolving research and let them decide on the spiritual implications of the findings. Religious fundamentalism must not hijack the educational process . . . isn't that the problem with many areas of the mid-east? We must keep church and state separate if we are to grow and evolve. The pursuit of knowledge must not be limited by pre-concieved religions views.
Thanks for giving the address to this site at the
end of the show! Donna

What about A Course in Miracles "explation"? "There is no world. This is the central lesson of this Course."
(I recall Deepak/Dr. Chopra, your quoting Course ("Today, I shall judge nothing that occurs")[but no cite given--ok by me]. Respect/love your works much; would love to hear your thoughts on Course. And my, you're getting forceful/aggrssive. (Good [I guess] they'll talk over you otherwise--but question: does your behavior reflect/require that you/one first judge others/situation before you/anyone can respond as you did on L/King live? Honest question--not trying to be smart-aleck. very best, clay...

Saw the program tonight . . . thanks for bringing some intelligence to the discussion.
They are pushing for an either/or agenda and
the issues are so much larger. Quantum physics
needs to be taught at the high school level and
people can make their own judments when they see where science and philosophy interact. Show people the ever evolving research and let them decide on the spiritual implications of the findings. Religious fundamentalism must not hijack the educational process . . . isn't that the problem with many areas of the mid-east? We must keep church and state separate if we are to grow and evolve. The pursuit of knowledge must not be limited by pre-concieved religions views.
Thanks for giving the address to this site at the
end of the show! Donna

QUOTE:[(reference Futurama: God says, ”When you do things right, nobody will be sure you’ve done anything at all”).]First of all, great episode - the remains of a space probe that collided with God. What's even better than the episode is your explanation of the world around us... everything you said stands up to scientific scrutiny - and you said a lot... keep educating the world... maybe "enlightenment" will be a trait more likely to be passed on to the next generation.

I was going to comment on the points that you list here, but Cappy did a very nice job of pretty much summing up everything that I wanted to say.

You claim to be partial to neither creationism nor evolution (as I understand your words) but I see only straightforward "attacks" on the theory of evolution, none of which seem to be based on any knowledge of the subject. You present no points on how religion might be questioned as you have evolution.

I think the funny thing is that your "points" are nearly identical to the arguments that I have heard every other person against evolution make. That is why people such as Cappy are so readily able to dispute your points with sound, observeable, technical answers. Its just become a matter of repeating what has already been discussed.

Now, understand that I am not trying to say that there is no God. I believe that there is a higher force at work in the universe, but I also believe that it is not possible for humans to understand, nor even comprehend this force. I choose to remain agnostic and try not to define this force, nor do I claim that it has any interest in us. It may, it may not, but I don't think humans will ever be able to tell either way. That is simply something that is not within our limited mental capacity.

religion sucks. devil is lord. flat earthers are taking over. Ned Flanders is in charge.

Thank you Deepak, for your thought full, intelligent remarks on the Larry King show regarding the controversy of teaching "intelligent design" in public schools.

Let me add a point that did not surface during the debate.

The effort being made by political office holders in favor of allowing "teaching the controversy" of evolution in public schools are doing so for the sole purpose of seeking the support of religious groups. They are not driven to do so for any other reason. This is a political issue, NOT a scientific issue.

Leaders of religious groups that are in favor of this are doing so for support of religious persons. Again, this is a politcal issue.

Take away the religious support of the Discovery Institute and there would no longer be a Discovery Institute.

Advocates of "teach the controversy" are making up the controversy, for there is no controversy in the scientific world regarding evolution.

No one is telling any religious organization that they must "teach the contoversy" in their religious classes.

If contoversy is what you want, then just ask a different religious group to join in on your religious teaching session.

If you want intelligent design taught in your public school, what if a person of a different religious belief than yours was to teach it?

If you want to "teach the controversy" you would have to teach it in every single subject in public school.

Those supporting intelligent design are rididuling their religion.

I see this from two viewpoints:

A practicing Roman Catholic & through the spyglass of Astronomy.

As a Roman Catholic I was taught that God made me and God made The Universe and the Earth.
Now the Bible is the "Inspired word of God" especially the Old Testament. The New Testament contains the teachings of Christ & the Apostles or The Good News so I believe everything in the New Testament as factual but I understand that the ancient Hebrews did not write like we do for just historical fact but many times wrote in symbolic terms. Just look at the last book of the Bible Revelations...pretty symbolic and hard to really understand!

And in studying the night sky, seeing the heavens, galaxies far far away..millions of light years and the immense powers of Supernovae, Neutron Stars & Black Holes etc.
These things help back up my belief in a personal God who created and still creates all things.

Putting the two together I believe that possibly 15 Billion or so years ago, God decided to create our Universe and so he did. I believe that he created this Universe to explode giving us the Big Bang and he did it in such a way as to make it understandable so that life, when it could, could understand him.

I do not literally believe God created the Universe in 6 days. I do beleive that he inspired those ancient Hebrew scribes to write what they could understand.

As a Catholic I was taught to look at the meaning and the meaning of Genesis is that God created the Universe & us all.

To me then this is different from Intelligent Design. And while I believe that God created and still creates and does so what we have called evolution, proponents of Intelligent Design are specifically against Science.

They forget that Science is just using your brain to ask questions about the Universe that's all. No magic wands etc.

And no reason for those who are Religious to get scared.

I would even be so bold to point out that those who are proponents of I.D. are even trying to put God in a box.

I think that they are in a box, they are the ones whose minds cannot contemplate God.

I leave you with a quote that I saw in the Timothy Ferris book "Galaxies"

"He showed me a little thing,the quantity of a
hazel-nut,in the palm of my hand and it was as
round as a ball. I looked thereupon with the eye of my understanding, and thought: What may this be? And it was answered generally thus;
It is all that is made."

-St. Juliana

Of course, in her vision, she was talking to God.

I have a few questions I would like ask Christians.

First, is the Earth flat?

Does the Sun revolve around the Earth?

Is the Earth only about 6000 years old?

Are Dinosaurs a hoax even though we have used carbon dating to trace them back millions of years?

Is it horribly wrong for two people of the same sex to love one another and to live a life together?

Also, the Pastor on Larry King tonight needs to realize that you can't say that God created this world in 6 days. The preceding questions asides from last have all been proved by science to be false.

As for same sex marriage, I'm not saying that the Church should do the ceremonies but you can't say that it's wrong. When an individual falls in love regardless of wether they're the same sex or not we can't deny them the right to marriage.

I created everything. There, the truth is out. I feel better getting that off my chest. By the way, I don't care if gays get married, but I disagree with that idiot Pat Robertson. I think I'll give him a canker sore.

It seems to me that this all comes from an exagerated opinion of our human abilities and our separating ourselves from the rest of nature. I find it intensely inspiring that i am "merely" a piece of/reflection of the rest of earth. Feeling this, I feel the vibration of the whole universe. Evolution is beautiful.

The power of our minds are so powerful we have the power to completely change our whole DNA make-up.

We have the power to heal our bodies from any type of disease without the aid of drugs or anyother form of treatment.

We have the power to change the whole world around us, and how we live our life.

All you have to do is have no DOUBT, doubt is the killer of all dreams, doubt is the killer of everything we ever wanted in our life.

Have no doubt and you can have everything you've ever dreamt of in your life.

Common Thoughts creates our reality, say your sitting around thinking about a car wreck all day long, sooner or later the Universe is going to connect you with another car and possibly kill you.

But once you reach the level of thinking Deepak and others around him as me, we have a great Protection of the Gods, Protection from all harms, all diseases, all illness. Don't believe people, KNOW!!!!

Experience is the only truth you have, and ontill you experience the truth you won't know the full truth, if you don't think the whole truth is able to be known in your life than you shall never know the truth of everything!

PEACE, HARMONY, LAUGHTER, LOVE

www.Ramtha.com

Feel the coldchills, the ghoosebumps on the back of your neck an all over your body, see the Orbs, see the dancing points of Light. Know your not alone. Know there are Inter-dimensional entities all around you at every moment in your life protecting your divine will to live and explore the Unknown possibilities of this Universe and this Beautiful world in which we live in.

A wonderful discussion tonight on Larry King's show. When Larry asked "Well, who then created the creator?" Deepok had a very intelligent answer; something to the effect that when you study what goes on at the Quantum level and past to the nonlocal level one gets an entirely different interpretation of "God." I love you Deepak, Thanks for being. Bev

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him...1 Corinthians 2:9

Two words: Flat Earth

This debate,is first of all, a debate about the
evolution of the human species, not really one
about the evolution of life itself on this planet.
Those involved in this controversy are not in- terested in the evolution of dogs or horses. The
petty, narrow and callow mindsets of religious
leaders and science educators alike is pathetic and deeply disappointing.

Secondly, this debate is about the mechanism of
evolution described by Darwin as natural selection. He observed this process facilitating
the survival of certain types of wild species,
such as birds, in the Galapagos Islands and went
on to expand those observations to a theory to
explain the evolution of all life. This theory
is clearly superficial, particularly in light
of current biological science.

I submit to you that the human species began
with an already evolving simian ancestor in
remote prehistory which was then subjected, in many stages, to corrective genetic procedures by an advanced extra-terrestrial intelligence. This explains the sudden appearance on the stage of life of Cro-Magnon Man and the alien abduction phenomenon continuing in vast numbers into the present day.

Thanks for the insight, Deepak.

Two words: Flat Earth

forgive the typos in my post previous- very long winded...

this is not about destroying religion with the hard evidence of science, it is about changing those preceptions to deeper understandings of Truth

the path is the way, in striving to find truth we attain enlightenment

letting go of the fact we can have all explanations is part of what self realization entails, some refer to this as Faith

abide these three things: faith , hope, love

the greatest of these is love

one can love knowledge and hope it finds the unified principle, the same way we wish to find for us the Greater Being and its unified inherent presence in all

faith is based in understanding as well, an understanding of others konwing more or being more, but you being fulfilled in all instances

to do this you abandon the self and see your place within the WHole

as part of a big universe

as personal with the unified higher power that structures the universe

we have different names for it, God exists as Law, this can be a Law of Science every bit as much in the sense it can be the Law of Spirit

they arrive at plains of highest and lowest truth one in the same

Hey all, it's me god again. Meant to tell you that the true religion is Mormon. Yes, Mormon is the correct answer.

Deepak, For me the best part of the show was when you referred to stuff in the Bible as mythology. The pastor nearly had a fit!!! Didn't you know the Bible is the word of God and it's all true?

The low point was when you referred to teleology. That's straight from Christian dogma and Christian dogma makes me squirm. I think if you want to be taken seriously you need to distance yourself from Christianity. And as the lady said, if you want to do science you need to have a theory. You seem to be caught in the middle of trying to belong someplace. I'd say you should reject both science and Christianity and formulate the matter in terms according to your own tradition. It will have resonance with a lot of people. If you go the science route, you will be vulnerable to ridicule by scientists.

This debate,is first of all, a debate about the
evolution of the human species, not really one
about the evolution of life itself on this planet.
Those involved in this controversy are not in- terested in the evolution of dogs or horses. The
petty, narrow and callow mindsets of religious
leaders and science educators alike is pathetic and deeply disappointing.

Secondly, this debate is about the mechanism of
evolution described by Darwin as natural selection. He observed this process facilitating
the survival of certain types of wild species,
such as birds, in the Galapagos Islands and went
on to expand those observations to a theory to
explain the evolution of all life. This theory
is clearly superficial, particularly in light
of current biological science.

I submit to you that the human species began
with an already evolving simian ancestor in
remote prehistory which was then subjected, in many stages, to corrective genetic procedures by an advanced extra-terrestrial intelligence. This explains the sudden appearance on the stage of life of Cro-Magnon Man and the alien abduction phenomenon continuing in vast numbers into the present day.

Your words tonight were beautiful and perfect. all i could do was smile as you were. one thing there is no question about; the world is a better and more peacful place with you in it.

i have no answers to the points of discussion above and i wonder if man will ever be capable of having them. if it is possible to find them, then you have certainly laid out the roadmap to get there.

thank you for representing the more encompassing perspectives tonight!

As far as I am concerned, the speculative issue of whether there is an intelligent designer or not belongs--if it belongs at all in school--in a philosophy classroom. Philosophers think critically about this sort of question, and in fact much of what intelligent-design theorists produce is philosophical argument disguised in the language of science.

This debate,is first of all, a debate about the
evolution of the human species, not really one
about the evolution of life itself on this planet.
Those involved in this controversy are not in- terested in the evolution of dogs or horses. The
petty, narrow and callow mindsets of religious
leaders and science educators alike is pathetic and deeply disappointing.

Secondly, this debate is about the mechanism of
evolution described by Darwin as natural selection. He observed this process facilitating
the survival of certain types of wild species,
such as birds, in the Galapagos Islands and went
on to expand those observations to a theory to
explain the evolution of all life. This theory
is clearly superficial, particularly in light
of current biological science.

I submit to you that the human species began
with an already evolving simian ancestor in
remote prehistory which was then subjected, in many stages, to corrective genetic procedures by an advanced extra-terrestrial intelligence. This explains the sudden appearance on the stage of life of Cro-Magnon Man and the alien abduction phenomenon continuing in vast numbers into the present day.

The supporters of "intelligent design" and "teach the controversy" are all politically motivated.

Hi,

My name is Carol and I have been contacting or trying to contact institutions to find out if any one could help me. I don’t know if anyone has ever done this before, but I speak in tongues like The Bible talks about. I am trying to find out what language it is. My husband says it sounds Arabic of some kind. But I have never had any language lessons at all in my life. But on the night I started speaking in tongues I had a dream say feet with sandals at first then a white gown then Jesus as I have seen in the movies. Years pasted then 911 happened and I prayed in tongues and when I went to sleep I had another dream and man in a turban sitting on the floor told me to prepare. And every since then I have had dreams that come true. I would like to prove God. Not so much God but Jesus was, is Who He said He Was. If I can find out what language I am speaking, and prove I have not had any language classes then I am a scientific fact and intelligent design is intelligent because of a creator. For me it all goes hand in hand. The invisible visible (molecules). I didn’t have that thought until after 911. I have written down everything in books what I believe God has shown me. I just want to find out if it is a language I am speaking.

I have contacted MD University, but no response. I will pay for any travel expensive I might have to make in order to find out the truth. If the language is a language like they spoke about on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts. I mean not the exact same language, but a language. I know other people speak in tongues, but I don’t know who wants to do what I want to do prove Jesus. You see the thought of me being a scientific fact didn’t come from me it came from God, because I have been speaking in tongues since about 1983. It wasn’t until 911 and the dreams, did I have that thought. The thought came to me from the top of my brain. I mean I could feel the thought, and I had never done that before.

I know I sound crazy, but I am not. It is a hard thing to do to tell people about this for me because I don’t want to do anything against God. But I know this is the right thing to do because everything Jesus did was to glorify God. And Jesus is our example of a life we should try to emulate right? We are to help Him do His will on earth as it is in heaven.

Please respond either way whether you are interested in this or not.

Thank you,

Carol Floyd

What a discussion, and what great and diverse response... I will for sure return to this site to follow and even participate...

Rene B.

Hey guys, me god again. Sorry to keep having to come back again instead of getting it all in the first message, but hey, nobody's perfect. Wait, maybe I am, but you aren't. Ha Ha.

Anyways, I'm tiring of the debate. I think I'll roll the universe back up and start over again. Maybe the next time I'll leave out the christians. They are so tiring with their pompus holier than thou attitude and stupid ideas.

Maybe I'm just some crankpot and not god. If so you have nothing to worry about. But if I really am god, you better think about what I just said before going to sleep tonight.

In any case, their is as much proof that I am god as there is in any intelligent design theory, or in the bible or any other religious dogma.

Stories. That's all it is. Ha Ha

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him...1Corinthians 2:9

God tells us in the Bible that He created the universe in 6 days. He also signifies to us what He means by this. After each creative event God tells us the evening and the morning were the 1st day, the evening and the morning were the 2nd day etc. through day 6. He created the universe in 6 literal days.

I want to meet a God who has this kind of awesome power and ability!

The following is from Mr. Chopra's article at the top of the page.
It's high time to rescue "intelligent design" from the politics of religion. There are too many riddles not yet answered by either biology or the Bible, and by asking them honestly, without foregone conclusions, science could take a huge leap forward.

I would like to know what the too many "riddles" are that he says the Bible doesn't have answers for?

What is interesting to note is the undeniable force that drives all facets of this debate. That force being, and I write this with the knowledge of how difficult it is to explain this force, our (humanity) need for purpose. It drives the religious and evolutionist alike. However, both sides fall extremely short of answering why do we want to know? For the religious, who can answer why does God exist? There are limits. However, while both sides may offer paths on the search for purpose, the paths to enlightenment are not mutually exclusive to either party. Yet, science seems to be the only field which dares to seek to break these limits. And when I ask myself why science tries to do this, I'm left with a very religious explanation. We do so, because we are human.

If we can never understand what God is, then is it possible to discover why we can't?

Hi Deepak,Time as we know does not exist .All creations are simultaneous.All of the stages of the Earth ,past,present, future exist at the same time.

No form of matter however potent will be self evolved into consciousness,no matter what other bits of matter are added to it.

Consciousness existed first and evolved into the form into which it then began to manifest.

consciousness did not arrive because inert matter suddenly soared into activity.

Consciousness did not come from atoms and molecules scattered by chance through the universe.

All consciousness does indeed exist at once,and therefore it did not evolve as per Darwin.Evolved consciousness forms itself into many different patterns and rains down on reality.

source:Seth speaks. God bless.

What if I really am god? I think I'm starting to believe in me.

Who created God?

The Real Truth is AWARENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Awareness is the key to the entire truth, if you can attain true awareness of your life and how everything works and unfolds, you will have found the truth of reality.

If you can be aware of each small event in your life and how you have created it and how you have made that with your thoughts, it will profoundly change the way you view your life and the way everything happening in your life.

"There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep
seeking reality though in fact we are reality. We
think that there is something hiding reality and that
this must be destroyed before reality is gained.
How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh
at all your past efforts. That which will be the day
you laugh is also here and now."
Ramana Maharshi

"You are all Buddhas There is nothing you need to achieve. Just open your eyes." Siddhartha Gautama

"Failure is a learning experience, and what the ultimate learning is, is that there is no such thing as failure, for you have lived in spite of it all." -Ramtha

Excellent points, Deepak. I only wish CNN would have 1-2 guests on rather than 5-6+ at a time. TV is more conducive to the snarky soundbite rather than reasoned discourse.

I'd like to make a few comments about evolution and the future of man, and respond to some of your questions.
1. You asked why does evolution stop? I don't think it stops. It may go faster in some species, but if a species is well adapted and its environment doesn't change rapidly, there is no adaptive pressure. Roaches have been around for 300 million years. They must be doing something right. They are not complicated. They simply reproduce quickly, require little food, can eat almost anything, have a tough exoskeleton, and can fly to another location if things get tough in one locale. Are they evolving? Sure they are. They are becoming more resitant to insecticides. What about alligators? They've been around for many millions of years. Are they a dead end? Perhaps, but they are a predator that lives in water and perhaps they have not needed to adapt to changing circumstances. Now comes man, who faced certain pressures on the African plain to become a hunter and a killer. His fragile body had to develop some advantages. He has an incredible, overdeveloped brain (hyperactive), which may be his downfall. This aggressive nature to defend and conquer land at all costs has led to nuclear weapons, which could be the end of his species. We think we are a successful species, because we inhabit every inch of the planet, but I have my doubts. Have we learned how to stop killing our own kind in the past 2000 years? No, the wars have become more terrible, the weapons more terrible. We're not that much different from lions on the plains of Africa. They kill their own kind too. We have this incredible arrogance, especially the religious bigots, who think we a a product made in God's image. If I were to believe in God, God certainly doesn't look like us! The universe may be conscious; the universe may be a living being. That could be God. Certainly not a species with a hyperactive brain and a repugnant arrogance. Don't the physicists teach us that even atoms change their behavior when observed? The universe may be intelligent, but we are just one small part of it, and no more important than a butterfly.

First, let me say that I am a born-again Christian. I belong to the largest church in America (Lakewood Church in Houston, TX) and subscribe to what our pastor teaches. In defense of Christians, I would like to say the following:

Not all born-again Christians are zealots trying to convert the world and call one thing "good" and another thing "bad". SOME of us admit that we DON'T know it all! We don't all judge others. We don't all take sides. SOME of us would like to live the kind of life that others notice and ask us about. SOME of us know that living a life of PEACE and TRUST is a testimony in itself. Some of us KNOW that God speaks to each and every one of us every day if we will stop trying to tell HIM what we need and how the world should be run. SOME of us can go to church in jeans and sit next to the lady with the feathers in her hat on one side and the biker in leather in the other and never differentiate between the two. SOME of us can let God work in others' lives and not take on the job ourselves. SOME of us love the woman who has an abortion just as much as the man in the pulpit and KNOW that God is no respecter of persons. SOME of us don't have to cram our beliefs down others' throats. Some of us know that we can screw up EVERY day and God still loves us.

I take offense to some of the pastors I have seen on TV lately claiming to be Christians. They certainly don't speak for ME! When in trouble (and sometimes when I'm not), I go to the Bible and ask how Jesus would have handled this person or that/this situation or that. I kinda doubt Jesus would have addressed the other members of the panel on Larry King tonight the way some of the "Christians" did.

Laurel

Deepak,
Kudos to you for starting this debate. I loved the questions you raised and I am continuing to enjoy the posts that have followed. Especially the one from God! Cappy's response was a good rejoinder, but what is meant by "asking questions is more important than getting answers"? Sounds like Cappy is very religious about science!
Deepak, I will be keenly waiting for your next post and their reponses.
Keep up the good work!!
Mahesh

Only caught the last few moments of the CNN discussion, but I agree with Dr. Chopra when in one of his last comments on the show he implied that science is overlooking a great deal in its approaches to studying the universe. Science needs to find a way to allow itself to take seriously and study the supernatural and allow itself to find a way to study the notions of Karma and past lives and the spiritual energy systems of the physical world as if they were something more than just myth and allegory. This dismissal of the supernatural is also a form of fundamentalism (disguised as rationalism). Once we find a way to document these things (and I think we can, though I have no idea how except anecdotally) we will be able to begin to rid ourselves of the materialist fundamentalism of science as well as the spiritual/religious fundamentalism that plagues us now. Somehow there must be a synthesis that allows us to live in a rational world that also rationally allows for that which seems irrational.

This debate is not only valuable, it's essential. Cappy's (see above) refutation of the original points put forward by Deepak enable continuing discussion. Only thing I found jolting was Cappy's rather smug last line: "maybe you'll do better next time". Definitely not in the spirit of a good debate! One can be intellligent or knowledgable, passionate or ignorant, but above all, one should be humble.

Anyone who has witnessed the Light (in a moment of pure bliss- with no forms- and yet with pure instant communication)knows. How would we deny that? The answer is in the miracle and brilliance of Life. No other planet that we have found has visible life. This is a miracle by the definition of the word. The physical complexities of DNA and atoms and the Hierarchy of the living ladder of Life are evident in science. This Evolution from vibrating strings of nothing to vibrating strands of DNA is evident also in our Consciousness. We have gone from creating ImageS and Myths(Living Images)to piece together an Internal Visual Image that could move us forward in our understanding of our environment(internal and external). As this Image changes, so does science. Eventually, so will religion. Not because it is wrong, but because once again, the Light will have remembered itself after being lost in the vibrations. The question is whether physical reality exists within the body of a God remembered? Once we get there, it's time to enjoy Life........Light......and Love!

Who created God? No one, He has always been. He told Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Simply put God exists, always has and always will.

It is truely all in how you perceive your reality, if you believe there is a God and you pray to a God and you believe or know you will get a response you will have a response.

Do you people seriously not understand these 4 words?

YOU CREATE YOUR REALITY

I doubt Jesus would be able to do anything, because he is dead.... Why read crap that is complete fiction and has been re-wrote thousands of times for couple thousands of years? I just don't understand, you must be a true follower haha

See where people go wrong is they don't QUESTION, they don't question, THEY DON'T QUESTION anything but if they question it must be a sin.

I can only laugh at some peoples IGNORANCE. The darkness inside of them that is awaiting to be awakened to the truth of life.

Instead of living in the PAST. Live in the NOW, the present moment. Born again chirstian, give me a break woman. More like born again ignorance and manipulation.

Another thing this is the only thing so far I've ever agreed with Our President since he has been elected... Hopefully this will be a turning point and he really isn't as stupid and ignorant as some people think..

I know I've been fairly judge-mental just now but hey what do you expect with such ignorance an blinded from the light.

LET THERE BE LIGHT!

Peace, Harmony, Laughter, Love

www.ramtha.com

Deepak,

Watched the show,I think it was rude on your part to interrupt John Mcartha the way you did. John firmly believes in the Creation account which may not be science but is still the only documented account of the origin of the universe.

No harm in trying to find the truth about origins but discounting creationism alltogether is folly.

BTW liked your post and Cappys response can't wait for the second part.

Hi Carol,
It's good to hear that you know Jesus is real. I also know He is real and have accepted Him as Saviour and Lord. I am willing to help if I can.

great words Deepak...you were excellent on Larry King! Hey, what about the musical approach to intelligent design? Didn't Pythagoras have it right about the universe being designed along the principles of harmonics and irrational numbers like Pi and Phi (music, math, geometry and astronomy)?...perhaps the mathematics of harmony provides both the scientific and religious answers to the design of life: from spiral DNA to spiral galaxy? I like the idea that the musical octave with its 13 tones (the spiral of fifths) produces the full range of life as we experience it...all sounds... all light... all creativity... the good, the bad, and the miraculous! Isn't everything just vibrating at different rates of consciousness?...different states of being? And how amazing that most of the resonant standing waves of energy that creates the world as we see it, is both above and below the visible area on the electromagnetic spectrum. Consciousness is everywhere and indeed intelligent...and most fascinating is that it is all musically harmonious and interconnected as ONE multidimensional song we call the uni-verse - aka. god's operating system (OS)! Thanks for giving voice to those of us who know there is so much more to creation than the world according to Darwin or the Bible!

As long as belief and knowledge[data presumed to be true from the past] is involved in looking or seeing, we are blind. No matter how beautiful mathematics, nature or ideas or languages are, if the contact and sensation is almost instantly being identified with the past or memory then what we know as a result is false. Isn't there a possibility that some things may not be "known" in the classical sense? That imagination at a subquantum level is possilble? That invention could be the culprit of all that is mystery and the inventor is the invention at all levels? That only brutally honest awareness and unconditonal love for life the connection to that which is yet unknowable? Don't answer... throw out all authority and see for yourself.....yourself.

DEEPAK!!

Would you RELAX? No matter how long or how deep you search, you will NOT know it ALL! I learned this one night in a very profound way. I'll share it with you....

One cold night, coming out of Walgreen's, I noticed a man digging through the garbage, probably looking for food. I got into my new car with tears rolling down my face and asked God why *I* had a warm house to go home to in my new car and this man had to dig through the garbage to feed himself. I got a VERY clear answer. What I "heard" was, "That man has something you want very dearly. He has no responsibilities. He has PEACE! YOU have something HE wants very dearly. YOU have food and a warm home." It was then that I realized that God gifts us differently for a reason. If any one of us "had it all" or "knew it all" then we wouldn't need GOD and we wouldn't need EACH OTHER! (Again, He's got this ALLLLL figured out!)

Sometimes I learn spiritual laws so profoundly that I desperately want to share it with others. Then, a friend of mine might learn a spiritual law that I have been struggling with for some time. I share with her and she shares with me....both knowing that there's a third person out there that "has a grip" on something that baffles the two of us.

I know that there are spiritual laws just as there are physical laws and we all live under them whether we believe in them or not! If you jump off of a four-story building, YOU'RE GOING DOWN whether you BELIEVE in gravity or NOT! Spiritual laws are the same. It doesn't matter whether you believe in the law of reciprocity/what goes around comes around/karma/reap what you sow. You're gonna live under it ANYWAY!

SO......relax, Deepak! Rest in knowing that, by divine purpose, you will NOT know it all. If you seek, you will find, but you will NOT find it ALL but you'll find ENOUGH.

One more thing.....sometimes intelligence keeps us from our answers. Our minds (OK, I'm speaking of MYSELF, here!) are racing with question after question. Sometimes we just gotta make it STOP and REST.......and know that HE is GOD! HE has the answers, and when you meet Him, I'm sure He'll take all the time you need to answer you! :o)

See you there!
Laurel

deepak, infinite intelligence thanks you for appearing on larry king & taking a stand for the truth. you read me correct, not deepaks truth, but the closest to ultimate/god's truth able to be presented in that particular forum.
courageous souls like deepak & the gentleman from the discovery institute are examples of human/spiritual evolution occuring in real/linear time.
the pastor (religious person sitting to deepaks left) & others who STILL have an ego-self serving view of god & the bible & the poor woman who acted as if she was a grizzly bear protecting her young are both painfully, NOT (examples of evolution or what nature/god will ultimately select for, or however one wants to state it)- robert above, or anyone else who gets lost in the forest for the trees.
people/entities/organizations who also get lost in the us vs. them, or science vs. spirituality are headed down a dead end street, so to speak. would not it be more constructive to teach children in topics of science or religion(high school level & beyond) that whatever is being taught is fact only in the sense that (this is how far "the experts" have come, thus far!)- & that mankind will continue to learn new ways of observing the world which will lead to new, more adcanced facts! & also, if history is to provide any lead, those facts will melt away in the near linear future, just as most previous "facts" have done historically - as one of the quantum physicists put it so truthfully in the movie, "what the bleep do we know?" would not this give the precious souls in school reason to start thinking for themselves, & begin to understand that what THEY think really matters to the direction society/state of the world, will take???
some will be left in the dust during this revolution of awareness of conscienceness (& presumably selected against), which is & will continue to occur whether the religious leaders or purely scientific atheists like it or not. it's not under their control. it's under god's/infinite intelligence/intelligent design's plan. it's in the cards people - it's already occurring - the critical mass is being reached - the momentum's already there - the inertia of the awareness is already there. oops, there i go using science to describe a higher intellegence.
why do you think the lady on larry king was so DEFENSIVE. she KNOWS she's defending something she knows very little about & furthermore, that she's losing - her illusions. she is an exquisite example of fear. she needs people to tell her what she's supposed to think.
aren't we all getting old enough, evolutionarily speaking, to decide for ourselves, what to think/believe & to learn for ourselves how our intent/thoughts/actions affect the surround/rest of society/world/universe.
please, please wake up everybody, scientific method does & will continue to describe god/the oneness that we ALL make up. all deepak & other like minded truthsayers are trying to say is of course god exists & everything was/is being/will continue to be created from it! but don't you think maybe, just maybe he didn't create such dummy's w/ humans; that we create & recreate ourselves b/c it's the higher ones will or intent.
stated differently, isn't deepak simply saying god gave us the gift to realize we can & do experience life, as well as, observe that we're having that experience. that this undisputible fact makes us ALL scientists of our life. yes, of course we use scientific method when we observe ANYTHING - lady. although most souls don't yet take responsibility for the fact that our observations of the world effects/affects the surround (i am working on it), doesn't mean that it doesn't!

I find it ironic that recently in the Toronto Star there was an article that read that Darwin near the end of his life thought there must be intelligent design.
I wonder how he would have participated in tonight's discussion.

Mr. Murder...as I was working up my response to the questions as posted, I noticed that yours pretty well cover what I was going to say. I, too, am a science teacher that has had to deal with highschool kids and these questions. It really has not been a problem. Your answers are just a little too technical in terms of "the jargon" of science. Most people will have to look up every other word. I will try to give more everyday examples and use terms more conceptual to the average"non-science" person.
However I loved your synopsis, Thankyou.
C

Thank you Deepak for presenting a reasoned and sensible discussion. Pastor John is unable to use the reason that God gave him and I appreciate that you were able, very politely to tell him that he is an idiot. Barbara is a good high school science teacher but was unable to enunciate the fact that the purpose of science in the high school is to teach the student objectivity. The scientific method allows for no subjective ideas to intrude on the study of a particular problem and this is to be taught to the student. Once a student learns to islolate a scientific problem, to objectively set out a method to solve this problem, to objectively observe the facts found by this methodology, and then to objectively deduce the solution of the problem set out using the facts gleaned from the study, then the student has learned how to solve problems. These problem solving method has been found to be the most accurate method to date, not only in science but in most life situations. Once this objective method is learned then the student/adult may go on to look at problems in life or science or whatever that seem to have philosophical disconnects using philosophy, religious theory or mythodology or whatever to try to explain these disconnects but to confuse these philosophical arguements as science and to inject these confusions into high school science classes, as the religious-christian right wishes to do, is not only asanine but perniscious. This turns education back to the dark ages when alchemists were trying to turn lead into gold.

I believe in Intelligent Design and have Nano Technology and Fractal Cosmology to thank for my belief. Our viewable Universe is nothing more than a huge Atom and our Atomic Composition(s) are immeasurable and very so very small universes.

At http://www.amherst.edu/~rlolders/menu.html is a web site that shows the similarities between Nebulas and Atoms.

Carol - One word "Lithium". Actualy two words "Lithium quick"

WOW! I keep reading and I can't stop typing!

In answer to the question of whether we can create.....

OF COURSE! Have you ever woken up in the morning with a scratchy throat and over and over throughout the day, told people that your throat hurt? By the end of the day, it feels like you've been swallowing razor blades! Keep yourself from focusing on your throat and STOP yourself from SAYING that your throat hurts, and it will go away! (TRY IT!)

Have you ever called in to work and told them you had a flat tire when you didn't? You'll get a flat tire within a week!

Watch your thoughts and watch your words. They have POWER! Think and speak on the GOOD things in your life and watch your life change. Your life will move in the direction of your beliefs.

THANK YOU CARTER!!!!

Beautful, simply marvelous!

People are waking up and becoming aware, this has been happening since 1989 when the Harmonic Concordance happened. People have been awakening, and now it is reaching a massive level, which is what I have seriously been waiting for.

What I saw on TV tonight almost gave me a heart attack whenever I saw the headline and then saw Deepak! I was in shock, amazement, joy, and simply felt weightless...

Here are a couple other websites if anyone is interested...

www.createwithintent.com

www.sunriseofthesolardisk.com

www.twolostmoons.com

www.treeofthegoldenlight.com

That's just a start people!!!

This is long but addresses many of the issues Lightworkers report to us they are experiencing. The good news is that the Truth is gaining momentum and can no longer be suppressed. Evidence of this is all around us. We, the people, are gathering and decreeing NO MORE! of the old paradigm. YES! to creating the new paradigm built on unity, cooperation, peace, abundance and Love! Truly, Together we are Victorious! Enjoy!

Like I said THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG!!!!!!!!!!

Feel your body vibrate, feel the chemical reactions inside of your divine mind. Know it is real and undeniable.

To be for one day entirely at leisure is to be for one day an immortal.
- Chinese proverb

For thousands of years mankind has scanned the heavens in search of clues that would bring the answers to our Loneliness. Clues that are believed to exist on other planets, whose life forms know our past. But, isn't our past hidden or ignored by mankind, which turns a blind eye to the home where we were once Born?
When the Universe was Born, the Force of the Creator brought the Rainbow of Life, which was spread throughout this Vast and Magnificent Universe. The Creation of Cosmos from Chaos is a story of eight billion years of Cosmic Evolution, transforming matter into Life, and Life into Happiness.

Life is Energy. So is Happiness. What's common between these two is the same for Matter. So what is Energy?
In simple terms the intensity or vitality of an action or expression is called Energy. Matter is just condensed Energy. The more we refine Energy, the more the visibility of matter will become transparent or microscopic.

On Earth, every very living species is composed of a physical and spiritual body. If a person believes that he/she is not a Living Soul living in a physical body (state), then that person is awaiting the first lesson. We all know what the physical body might be as we read this page. But what is the Spiritual body? A simple guess is Energy, but it's more than this.
Spiritual body may be defined as an animation of the physical counterpart. Hence 'Anima' derives from Latin which means 'to animate', and in English is translated as Soul. Since humans currently are the superior species on this planet, we'll concentrate the subject of Spiritual Self to ourselves. But keep in mind that all flora and fauna are connected to the same Origin as we are.

The Soul is not the Spirit, but it is that by which the Spirit is known. It is intangible due to the refined Energy oscillating at different frequencies and varying densities. The vibrations that a Soul emanates is referred to as Aura. The Life of a Soul is Eternal, as our physical bodies are transient.

Gratitude towards what we have is one of the surest ways to receive blessings without exception. We receive blessings as we give out gratitude. This is a natural law and one that is immutable.

Every day is a new day. We cannot carry the troubles of yesterday into today. Each day, the sun shines anew, the air is fresh again, the sky is different, and the earth is newly awakened. The birds wake each morning and sing in gratitude, then go about the task of collecting food for their young. They are never disappointed. Nature provides their every need. Each moment we create our own reality and our own world through the gift of gratitude.

Our gratitude for the new day has a very large bearing on how we see the day, and how the day treats us. We have the opportunity at each sunrise, to change any thought, either negative or positive, that we have carried through from the previous day.

“We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creature through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth.” From 'The Outermost House' by Henry Beston

This flashback to the ego-game is accompanied by a concern with
identity. "Who am I now? Am I dead or not dead? What is happening?"
You cannot determine. You see the surroundings and your companions as
you had been used to seeing them before. There is a penetrating
sensitivity. But you are on a different level. Your ego grasp is not
quite as sure as it was.

"If you don't go within, you will surely go without."

If we both see that what you say is true, and we both see that what I say is true, then where do we see that? Not I in you, nor you in me, but both of us in that unalterable truth that is above our minds.

Like I said, the possibilities really are endless. If you can imagine it, you can create it.
It really IS that simple!

All:

I am a not a very intelligent person at all. So I have hard time finding answers to some very basic questions related to this universe. Can anyone including Mr. Chopra and non-believers in intelligent designer (God?) answer them?

1. When did this whole universe start and how? What was/is the ultimate building material of this universe? How did it come into existence from absolute nothing? How will this universe end?

2. How does this ultimate building material knows how to modify a certain body-part so that it can better adjust to the outer environment? I mean how does it know that by changing from "plates to fur" will save it from cold. How does this know which chemical substances will be needed to produce fur and how does it create those substances? Does this material have a intelligence of its own? If yes, then what is this "intelligence" made up of? What is the electrical or chemical components of this "intelligence"?

3. What is the limit of this universe? What is beyond that limit and after that limit, and after and after....?

4. Finally, something about Mr. Deepak Chopra. I am not sure about your knowledge and dedication towards Indian philosophy and Gita, but if you believe even in an aouta of them and also in what you preach, then PLEASE stop making money out of them. I have heard about how intelligently you started your intellectual business in USA, which was done slolely to milk rich Americans of their dollars like another self-proclaimed spiritual fraud Mahesh Yogi with whom you parted sometime after learning his tricks of the game. Indian saints never intended to teach their knowledge for making money. They never charged huge money to their sollowers for giving their knowledge. So you don't have any right to sell their knowledge however mediocre imitation it may be of that knowledge to make money. Also, PLEASE don't spread regionalism (Punjabiwad) by aligning with Shekhar kapoor and Ritu Beri for spreading Indian philosophy. I don't have anything against you being Punjabi, but its hard to digest a person from Punjabi community talking of religion and philosophy where everybody in that community can do ANYTHING for money. You have a right to say that you are practising Punjabi philosophy, but you don't have any right to malign my Great Indian philosophy by making money in its name.

With Darwin's theory, if man evolved from monkeys, why didn't monkeys become extinct? Why are they still around? Same question to those who indicate we came from fish. And why are so many folks unable to grasp the strength and reality of the physically unseen?

If human evolution from animal is true, then do we still have a long time for our spine to push inwards to the middle of our bodies??? Our spine currently resembles that of the 4 legged creatures that have their backs facing the sky. Fish don't use 4 legs, their spine is in the center of their bodies. We stand vertically upright, our spine is in the back, and hence our bodies don't balance perfectly, we can bend forward, but not backwards. why can't we? because our feet extend to the front to support the forward balance, so our legs should be centered in the middle of our feet too? If we read the Muslims' book "The Holy Quran" we find a verse where God challenges Man to "CREATE" an insect (Mosquito); Can any scientist or any science CREATE??? Did we evolve and still in the process, or were we simply ....Created?

Because we are Universal Entities, simple as that. We are beyond which your imagination can understand at this moment in time.

I will tell you though, I shall send all of you who read this a 'Runner' a runner to tell you the truth of our existence. The truth of which you ask about..

Have no doubt.

We are all one, we are all connected. We are God. All knowledge is past down. Do you think material items are going to bring you happiness? Go within people, you are connected to everything. Your cells vibrate and send signals out into the Universe to be accepted.

Whenever you focus your intention upon the Universe the Universe focuses all of its energy and power upon you to make that intention, desires, thought into physical reality..

Earth is changing, time will change forever, you are a witness. You are the Light, after Light there is Love.

Ask the chirstians who created the Devil?? Watch their faces turn red!

Your opinions, your fears, your doubts are all in your mind. It is all how your perception is.

For you Jesus believers ask yourself this:

Ask and it is given!!!

...understatement for the day!...

Wow! one quick plug on National TV and Whammo!...this thread closes in on 200 posts..no wonder $billions are paid out in advertising costs annually! Advertising works!

re: the topic at hand...

History repeats itself: us humans always get ourselves into trouble/wars, when we become over zealot with our religion of choice, for at the end of the day it creates an
... US versus THEM...
...a my God is bigger and better than your God!

Ouch, when we get to this stage...there is certainly little wiggle room for understanding!
Hence the pickle the world (USA) finds itself in today!

..I can only thank God for my 8 or 9 years of Zion Presbyterian Sunday school, followed by a one hour longggg church Sermon...fore I ultimately came to the conclusion at approximately 15 years of age, that I had enough organized religion to last me a lifetime or two!

I have since found a wonderful spiritual outlet which has worked wonders for me...walking and exploring out of the way beaches, mountains and wilderness areas. Walking my 3 dogs in local parks and trails works pretty well as well!..This is how I am able to replenish ...

p.s....hopefully our countries (USA) policy makers will begin to head Mother Natures warnings and find alternatives that will turn the tide and protect what we have left of the natural world! But before this can happen, the individual citizen must first make changes such as, trade the SUV for a smaller vehicle, be willing to be happy in a 3,000 sq ft home as opposed to a 6,000+ sq ft home, turn the tap of between tooth brush rinses, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. (for when we point a finger at policy makers, two fingers are pointing back at us-the individual)

..finally, as one looks over the short term mindset of citizens and their Gov't, I shall not be holding my breath any time soon!

This crap is why the Republicans are in power and are destroying the Earth. People who know better (i.e., liberals, progressives, Democrats, whatever we call ourselves) are so damned naive. The Republicans aren't actually concerned with anything Deepak Chopra writes about. They don't want to know how a primordial surface cell evolved into scales, feathers, and skin. All they want is to preach the Bible in the schools I pay for with my taxes. Whether creation is intelligent is a discussion far beyond the intellectual capacity of Bush, Pat Robertson, and all those dip shits. But they lure us into this kind of over-intellectual navel-contemplation while they steal elections, rape our economy, and destroy our forests. Pull your heads out of your asses people.

I enjoyed the discussion on the Larry King Live show. It was refreshing to find those who support the evolution and theological beliefs equally but separately.

1. The Hubble Telescope has produced pictures of the creation of the universe as if was being formed millions of years ago. Therefore, one might say that it has photographed God creating the universe and evolution developed it.

2. The original bible was a man's attempt to explain what could not be explained (even by science) at the time.

3. The church was never mentioned in the original bible. The bibles (as we know them) were written to support the church. Churches are a business whereas religion is a belief.

4. The arguement of separation of church and state was first emphasized in the bible by Jesus.

5. Public schools were for teaching education. Sunday schools were for teaching religion. You could not have a single program in public schools that would accomodate all the different religions.

"Finally, something about Mr. Deepak Chopra. I am not sure about your knowledge and dedication towards Indian philosophy and Gita, but if you believe even in an aouta of them and also in what you preach, then PLEASE stop making money out of them."

Sometimes, God allows us to use our gifts to become prosperous. Nothing wrong with THAT! If He didn't like it, He would do something about it. It's not our place to condemn Deepak for what God has rewarded!

Laurel

The thing to rememeber is that this is a time of asking the right questions. Politicians are starting to study up on their science. Bioethicists are sounding more and more like politicians. The irony is decadent. People are just now grasping the gravity of how important existialsim really is.

Came across a cool "existential blog project" at http:www.freaktochic.com - people are agressivly commenting on answers to big questions what really happens when we die. It's at: http://freaktochic.typepad.com/freaktochic/2005/08/5_questions_tha.html

Reading this explains things clearly...
and you thought you were losing it.
Hopefully it's lost Forever...

Reading this explains things clearly and you thought were losing it.

Hopefully, it's lost forever.

Aloha PAG Members and Friends,

This is long but addresses many of the issues Lightworkers report to us they are experiencing. The good news is that the Truth is gaining momentum and can no longer be suppressed. Evidence of this is all around us. We, the people, are gathering and decreeing NO MORE! of the old paradigm. YES! to creating the new paradigm built on unity, cooperation, peace, abundance and Love! Truly, Together we are Victorious! Enjoy!
Colleen

What's Up on Planet Earth -- Latest Energy Alert:
The Ascension Leap Of Mid-August -- August 15 , 2005
by Karen Bishop

Greetings! During the weekend of August 13-14, we made a great ascension
leap. Many were given the opportunity to exit the Old World and begin a
New residence in the higher realms. But first, let me lay the foundation
with a brief explanation of how we got to this point before I elaborate
more fully on what is now occurring.

Very generally speaking, on December 12, 2004, a portal opened giving us
access to "Heaven." Then on March 5, 2005, the original blueprint for
the planet Earth was unveiled. In this way, Heaven and Earth were most
certainly ready to "meet." From March 2005, then, there has existed a
"sandwiching" effect where anything not in alignment with the higher
realms that were now surrounding us above and below, was most certainly
felt and noticed, as it was on its way to another reality and a very
different residence.

In past messages I have indicated that 2005 would be the "year of
destruction." As the New World was now ready to arrive at the physical
levels, anything not in alignment with these higher vibrations of the
higher realms had no choice but to dismantle, fall apart and lose any
and all energy for its support and maintenance. Although this pattern
has been occurring for several years now, it is being felt to a much
greater degree as it is now time for these changes to occur at physical
levels and in addition, the shifts are arriving like labor pains, much
more frequently and with much more intensity.

So then, in March and April of 2005, a second wave was given the
opportunity to prepare for their ascension process. While the first
wavers had been poised and waiting since the end of 2004 (and the
forerunners even before this time), the second wave was now being
prepared for their evolutionary shift into the higher realms and into
new (or "forgotten") ways of being.

During this time we experienced "internal tsunamis," as we were aligning
and releasing much. And most recently, in the months of July and August,
we felt "internal earth changes," as much was shaking and shuddering
within us, knocking us out of our old and outdated grooves.

As always, there exist pivotal times and opportunities for severe Earth
changes to occur on the planet. Many lightworkers found themselves
visiting or residing in geographical areas that were the most at risk
for these changes, and with the powerful and amazing gift of their
presence alone, much of these Earth changes were averted. The majority
of the time, this has been the outcome. Even if only at subconscious and
higher soul levels of knowing and awareness, we found ourselves in
places where we needed to be, and in this alone, we have done a most
powerful service. But our souls ALWAYS know what they are doing, and as
always, all is always in divine and perfect order.

So this is why we are feeling these great and monumental changes most
severely within us, as many times we have averted the need to experience
them on the outside.

How have all these intense and powerful changes and shifts manifested
for us? As we are continually vibrating higher and higher, we are being
rewired for living in the higher realms. This can result in many strange
feelings and certainly, as always, many physical maladies. But once you
get to the higher realms, most of these symptoms cease to exist. As the
ascension process involves "dying while we are alive," there comes a
point where we let go and release much of everything... just as one would
do in the 3D death process, only this time we remain in our bodies.

For the first phase of ascension, our bodies are twisting and turning
and experiencing many strange sensations and symptoms, all relating to
the fact that they are now much too dense to exist in the higher realms.
Even though we may have adjusted and arrived at a much more higher way
of "thinking" with a new awareness, our bodies in physical form are the
last to be affected...and this is the same with the world in physical
form.

I won't go into the details of some of the most common physical symptoms
of the first phase of ascension as they are listed in other sections of
this website, but know that they are simply a part of the process and
all is in order here.

As we begin completing the first phase of ascension, we now find
ourselves in a totally new space, and at times it can be challenging and
confusing. Even though the ascension process involves many layers and
experiences of that feeling of "no sense of place," when you finally
reach the higher realms within your own personal vibration, you can
really feel like a fish out of water with the old surrounding
manifestations of the Old World in relation to personal relationships,
career, living situations and pretty much everything that involves the
old 3-D ways of being.

These last few months have created the most intense and powerful shifts
and changes I have yet seen with ascension. And this was purposely
designed to fit this particular time as all is perfectly moving forward
for this amazing and incredible Shift of the Ages. In order for creation
and manifestation to occur, all energies involved with this process must
culminate at a perfect time and in a perfect way, with all parties or
energies involved at a point of readiness and summoning.

In order to be "ready," much had to be willing to let go and to be
absolutely sure that we were no longer willing to reside and tolerate
the ways of the Old World . This has been an on-going process for quite
some time, manifesting is an acute desire to no longer jump through all
the "hoops" required by society to manifest anything. An intolerance for
"red tape," bureaucracy, any energies that felt controlling and that
inhibited our natural and true state as unlimited creators and anything
"limiting" began to feel absolutely intolerable to the ascending human.

Until now, we had known this intellectually. We had always known that
this world was upside down and inside out, but now we were "feeling" it
and being it, as we had begun to evolve in our human state and these
lower and more densely vibrating energies were a gross mismatch to how
we were now vibrating…not to how we were thinking but to how we were
vibrating.

For sensitives, these mismatches can be challenging. Mismatched
vibrations can leave one in a state of short circuitry, with great knots
and gagging in your stomach, with a tenseness and tightness which does
not support the natural flow of source energy and with an acute feeling
that you do not belong anywhere. The old lower vibrating energies and
ways can really make one feel ill. And it can be difficult as well to
say "YES!" to anything, as it seems that all presented to you and in
your environment requires a "NO!."

But at the higher levels all energy always goes in the same direction.
We are always being supported at soul levels to achieve the grand plan
for our best interests and everyone and everything is in on it with us.
This is why George W. Bush was re-elected as president of the United
States once again. This beautiful soul is in it with us as he has agreed
at a soul level to provide a very severe contrast so that as many as
possible will choose to summon something different. The more individuals
who agree to summon something different, the better. This summoning then
creates an energy of desire that co-mingles with the planetary
alignments and integrates with the new higher vibrating human and
results in the change necessary and the initiation of the creation of
the New World. Yes, there is always much support here to fulfill this
divine plan of ours as we needed to be assured of success. All was in
alignment in every arena.

In the higher realms there is no polarity. It is accepted and widely
known that at lower levels of reality, polarity (or what appears to be
darkness) only exists to support us in summoning something different. A
common scenario that represents this concept is when one partner in a
relationship has an affair or abruptly leaves another. Many times this
occurs so that the "abandoned" partner will be forced to move forward
and into the new territory they were meant to inhabit. All souls deeply
love each other and always support each other if even in a world where
conscious awareness is thwarted by a lower vibrating existence behind
the veil.

So now, here we are in a state of "intolerance" with the old. As our day
to day activities begin to become more and more difficult to fulfill
with so many regulations, hoops to jump through and steps to take, it
beautifully places us in a state of being that greatly supports a need
for change through a gross "mismatch" of energies. And it is not that we
don't want to continue on in a world this way, it is that we absolutely
CANNOT. Staying in these lower ways of an old 3-D reality can make us
ill and will eventually shut us down. But they also bring us to a point
where we are very willing to let it all go, and this is exactly what we
need to do in order to make our ascension leap.

These mismatches and different vibratory levels of energy are now
becoming more pronounced than ever before. With the advent of the portal
that opened on July 7, 2005 (7:7:7), we were bumped up to even higher
levels of reality and this, then, created even more desire for change.
This event literally bumped many into an entirely different space. What
we may have only just very recently desired and began creating suddenly
felt totally wrong, and we were then left in a new state of confusion
about where we actually belonged.

When we "bump up" in vibration, we go to the next highest level for each
of us individually. For some it is a higher level in one reality and for
others it can literally push us over into the higher dimensions in one
fell swoop. This is what recently occurred around the time of August 14,
2005. With the culmination of all factors (the desire and summoning for
change, the planetary alignments and the support of now many more ready
for an ascension leap), the temperature was ripe and many were then
given the opportunity to make this leap.

And let me add a note here about the equinoxes and solstices. The
solstices always bring about a deep cleansing and deep removal of
anything left of the denser and lower vibrating energies within us. The
equinoxes always bring in a move forward with much support in creating
the new after we have released much. As our personal and planetary
vibration increases more and more, these effects are felt much more as
they increase exponentially. But we have expanded greatly and are
embodying much more of source energy than ever before, and now we are
able to accommodate much more of these shift creating energies than we
ever could even months before.

So then, we really went through some intense deep cleaning resulting
from the June solstice, as it was designed to prepare us for moving
forward when September arrived. And September will bring in some
incredible energies for manifesting! We frequently experience confusion
around the solstice times as we are knee deep "in" our denser energies,
and we experience great clarity during the equinox times as we are then
more in alignment with the higher realms.

So what about this big ascension leap around the weekend of August
13-14? How does it all fit together?

Things had to get so bad and feel so uncomfortable that enough
individuals were willing to let go of it all. When we reach a certain
internal vibratory level, we become activated for a different reality,
and this is where we must reside.

You may have felt like you did not want to talk to anyone. You may have
turned off your phone, your TV and not answered any e-mails. You may
have not been able to go to work. In this way, you were "leaving." You
may have felt that there was nowhere left to go that felt remotely good.
No person, no place, no reality, no existence…nothing. Things had
finally reached a point of no return, and in this way, we are then
finally ready to leave it all behind.

You may have been having many strange and intense dreams. We release
much in the dream state. When I was in the throes of my ascension
process, I would lay my head down on the pillow, and the minute I began
to drift off, I would begin a process of rapid releasing with image
after image flying past, spinning off layer after layer of old
experiences and energy infusions. We are gaining closure and finishing
up old business in the dream state just as we do in a life review or
other process when we cross over through a 3-D experience of death, only
this time we are remaining in our bodies. Our dreams also serve to give
us messages and clarity as to where we are in our process and what is
going on.

And then there are the "boundary experiences." These have been going on
for a while and will continue as we learn how to reside in the higher
realms. As the veil is lifted and the old dense boundaries are basically
not there in the higher realms, we find ourselves declaring our space
and wanting more secure boundaries like never before. We must learn to
navigate in the higher realms. As we realize that we can be anywhere and
connect with anyone in an instant in these realms, we now must learn to
respect the space of others, as it is so easy to be in another's space
now, if even with a mere thought or intent.

You may also be feeling very vulnerable these days. With the
disappearance of the old dense boundaries and especially with so much of
our old ego selves having left, one can feel very vulnerable at times.
In the old 3-D reality, we developed parts of ourselves that came from
ego and served to protect us in a harsh and challenging environment.
Just as in the death process in the 3-D world, as we begin ascending to
the higher realms, we begin losing these ego aspects of ourselves as we
gradually begin to embody more and more Source energy and this also
results in a return to our childlike innocence as well.

So as we begin connecting more and more to Source and remembering our
true power, we can feel a different power along with a new and different
state of fragility as well. Looking in that mirror and not knowing who
in the world you are looking at is perhaps one of the most prevalent
aspects of the ascension process!

One surefire way to know that you are beginning the journey from one
dimension to another is an inability to stay awake with periods of deep
sleeping. As we travel inbetween the dimensions, we are knocked out of
one reality and into another, and we frequently space out and tend to
fall asleep very easily. If you made your choice to leave this reality
this mid-August weekend, you may very well have spent much time asleep.

Another sure sign that you are embodying this New energy is a craving
for the New...new furniture, new experiences, new material possessions
that make you feel great and give you that sense of "I deserve the best,
and I am out of that old drudgery and dense energy!."

So then, a group of lightworkers recently made a collective decision to
leave the Old World behind and begin their residency in the higher
realms. Many have done this on an individual level, but this time, it
was done as a much larger group. These individuals have basically been
given permission (and know that the permission is granted by a group
consensus of our own souls, as we are very powerful beings and at soul
levels know exactly what we are doing) to leave their Old World
lightworker duties and roles behind. They are now free to move forward
into the higher realms and create the world and reality of their dreams.

Basically, what has happened is that a critical mass has been reached.
The Old jobs of "holding the space" of the higher vibrations on planet
Earth are now complete. And with the advent of this shift, we will see
many of the spiritual leaders leaving the planet as well. Their energy
and great gifts are no longer needed. Many have already had this
experience on a personal level, but this time, it occurred as a critical
mass.

So what will this "look" like? It will appear that some have simply
disappeared from the Earth. They will appear to be gone. Within
realities there are specific and structured hierarchies. We can always
go to the lower realms by lowering our vibratory rates, but we can never
go higher than we are vibrating or higher than what we are "being." We
must first match the vibration of a higher realm before we can go there.
And if we have been there once, we can always go back. And know that
there also exists that "pull back" energy that tries with great fervor
to suck one back into the Old World. Whew!

Those now residing consciously in the higher realms will absolutely love
it here, as this is a completely different reality. To make oneself
visible and connect to the Old World and lower reality, one needs to
drop their vibration, and this can only be done for short periods of
time. You may have had experiences of this already as you may feel as
though you are "acting" and pretending when you interact with others and
with the Old World. While in the Old World it also feels very draining
and dense. Many will be going back and forth to make brief appearances
as teachers and guides and healers, and many will stay exclusively in
the higher realms in order to create the higher ways of living in the
new communities.

You may now be saying to yourself, "Gee, Karen. First you say that the
Old World is changing and we are assisting in raising its vibration, and
then you say that we are creating a brand New World in the higher
realms. Which is it?."

As always, it is both. The " Old World ," so to speak, will serve as a
stepping stone to the "other side." In the Old World, people will need
healing, they will crave new information, they will be in spaces of a
stepping stone nature where they will be readying themselves in a more
gentle and progressive way to reach the higher realms. So in this way,
there will be lightworkers who will remain "in the trenches" as this is
their calling and mission. If you do not feel as though you have made a
big ascension leap, it is because you are not supposed to. You will have
most likely felt a leap, but in regard to your next step as a leader,
teacher, or healer for the Old World or stepping stone reality. There
are no healers, teachers or leaders in the New World as these roles no
longer serve a purpose.

If you have chosen to reside in the Old World and evolving reality, you
will be connected to and hooked into experiences of crashing economies,
angry, fearful and fighting human beings and be guided to ready yourself
for great upheavals. Those in the higher realms will have none of these
experiences. They will be in another reality altogether with all of
their needs met, as they are experiencing total freedom and a lightness
of being as they have decided to let everything go.

Both roles are vitally important and these decisions were made prior to
infusing our energies into our physical forms. There is no judgment here
or spiritual competition but simply a matter of who you are and what you
came to contribute and be. These beautiful souls who will remain in the
trenches will have opportunities to have "meetings" and gatherings in
the New World higher realms at any time, as we will all need to connect
and support our teams.

So here, then, is the latest news, and I suspect that it is not news to
any of you, but only a validation of what you were already experiencing
and knowing deep within.

Wishing you Heaven in your heart, starlight in your soul, and miracles
in your life in these miraculous times. Until next time,

--Karen Bishop

http://twolostmoons.com/ascension_august.htm

Hope someone enjoyed : )

I think its ridiculous we're having such a debate. Children are straying away from science more and more in this country (I mean the only reason Republicans are passing the stem cell bill is so we don't fall behind countries like Singapore and South Korea). All debates like this does is takes kids away from science and is something we don't need right now. We should be trying all we can to foster their interest in the sciences.

Religion is a mental crutch. Enough said.

i have a question, if any one is there.. where did we come from? (directed to the man on larry king tonight)

If human evolution from animal is true, then do we still have a long time for our spine to push inwards to the middle of our bodies??? Our spine currently resembles that of the 4 legged creatures that have their backs facing the sky. Fish don't use 4 legs, their spine is in the center of their bodies. We stand vertically upright, our spine is in the back, and hence our bodies don't balance perfectly, we can bend forward, but not backwards. why can't we? because our feet extend to the front to support the forward balance, so our legs should be centered in the middle of our feet too? If we read the Muslims' book "The Holy Quran" we find a verse where God challenges Man to "CREATE" an insect (Mosquito); Can any scientist or any science CREATE??? Did we evolve and still in the process, or were we simply ....Created?

My kids are grown and gone, HOWEVER, what if I was a Muslim or East Indian with another religious belief and here the American government is forcing my children to otherwise learn another religion in their school without my permission? This is illegal - and I hope it stays that way! I don't want the Bible Belt hillbillies to dictate to me how I raise my own children! Bush needs to get with it and move out of creationism before people start asking how God put him in the throne.

Very thought provoking blog. Sometimes when we wonder we might feel that there is some consciousness or energy that is deliberately trying to align, alter this universe.

Does anyone have any idea on what the age old scriptures found in this world have to say, the ancient Indian Vedas et al.?

Amazing discussion tonight, I've been reading through everyones posts and am thoroughly impressed with this crowd. Just wanting to congradulate you on your performance on CNN and a little thank you for mentioning the concepts of quantum mechanics!

I believe that we should all look into and debate why we are here. This will always bring up the question "who is god?" Once this question is reached, every religion has a different answer. Therefore that question cannot be answered at this point in time as a scientific fact.
K-12 schools cannot teach creationism b/c that is a Christian/ Jeadeau belief. First of all, Church and State must remain separate to ensure freedom of relgion in the home and the freedom to not have a religion forced down your throat in a public school. Second if you taught creationism why not teach buddist beliefs, or scientology, Native american, Aztec, spirituality or even that the Greek Gods created all. If one religious belief is taught, all must be taught and that is simply impossible.
Church and State must remain separate and only scientific fact should be taught in public schools. If that means a re-evaluation of Darwins theories then so be it.

Dear Mr. Chopra,

Please consider this third option to the intelligent design debate:

A man that you surely have heard of in the news has been saying since 1973 (more than 30 years ago) that life on earth was created by intelligent human beings from another planet. They created all life on earth thanks to DNA synthesis and genetic engineering, including humans beings in their image.

Sincerely,

Jean Gary

Deepak...

Good Job..

Your friend Jimmy

SUCH POSITIVE COMMENTS HERE.
SUCH NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON WWW.HUFFINGTONPOST.COM TO THE SAME POST!
JUST SHOWS THE DIVIDE AND PASSION AROUND THIS DEBATE.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that men are without excuse:

1. How does nature take creative leaps?

1a. --There was no Big Bang only local destruction of the sister planet of Mars
who's water and atmosphere were blown away and collected by Jupiter and Saturn
and the remains of the planet ended up scattered among the meteor belt and the rest of the Solar System.

2. Why does the fossil record demonstrate so many positive mutations

2a. -- God, the Supergenius Scientist, with the help of his millions of Technologists
over millions of years modified the DNA of Dinosaurs, Crustaceans
and Plants for Positive results.

3. How does evolution know where to stop?

3a. --Evolution has been disproved many times.
The Flora and Fauna of this Earth are too interdependant
and symbiotic to have possibly evolved.
Every thing was designed and tested and modified over millions of years.

4. Evolutionary biology is stuck with regard to simultaneous mutations.
How could one kind of cell take three different routs purely at random?

4a. -- The DNA was experimentally modified many times through the same species
until the desired mutation was achieved.

5. If design doesn't imply intelligence, why are we so intelligent?
Why did DNA pursue the path of greater and greater intelligence.

5a. -- A Higher Intelligence creates a lesser intelligence
The Super Intelligent God created a reasoning human being.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

6. Why do forms replicate themselves without apparent need?
The helix or spiral shape found in the sunflowers and spiral galaxies,
and DNA itself seems to be such a replication.

6a. -- If the DNA Pattern works why not keep it.

7. What happens when simple molecules come into contact with life? Oxygen is a
simple molecule in the atmosphere

7a. Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good . . .

8. How can whole systems appear all at once? The leap from reptile to bird is
proven by the fossil record.

8a-- DNA manipulation by God, the Super Genius Geneticist
and his millions of Geneticist helpers over millions of years.

9. Darwin's iron law was that evolution is linked to survival,
yet DNA is very fragile.

9a. --Mark 10:27 With men it is impossible, but not with God:
for with God all things are possible.

10. Competition itself is suspect
How did bees develop drones in the hive, that is,
bees who cannot and never do have sex?

10a. Eccles 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose
under the heaven:
Millions of years ago God designed everything to work together on this planet .

11. How did symbiotic cooperation develop?

11a. If you were an Immortal Super Genious with millions of Immortal Scientists
helping you, how would you design life on this planet ?

12. Finally, why are life forms beautiful? Beauty is everywhere in Nature, yet
it serves no obvious purpose. Once a bird of paradise has evolved its incredibly
gorgeous plumage, we can say that it is useful to attract mates.

12a Ec 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart,
There is no God.
======================================

boy o boy 186 comments and still going strong.this topic has a universal appeal.

Deepak, as a physicist/grad.student your words were well taken on the show tonite. It is unfortunate that 3/5 of your fellow panelist could not comprehend the magnitude of your words.

An interesting comment Barbara made towards the end was that the debate will always lead to a religous scuffle. Fact is, the words of god, bible, etc. were always brought up by the same 3 panelists. My point is simple, not everyone can see the what we see, and not everyone is suppose to at this time.

I have a feeling 3 of the 5 panel members have had little scientific experimental experience. I am not suprised that they all lost scope of what intelligent design is about. I will admit that intelligent design is obviously easily misunderstood, therefore I could not expect 1000's of teachers to have the same basis for teaching it, which would be the only reason not to teach the subject.

Celestino

xxx ask: I have a question, if anyone is there... where did we come from?

Through reproduction. You just dont pop out from nowhere.

Now why the "Holy Book" says :
1. the earth is the center of the universe?
Evolution is just a theory, how about the arguement "Center of the universe". Its a wrong fact!! At least evolution cannot be proven wrong.

2. nothing about 121 million years old small dinasaurs fossil? Why there is no 'old' enough human fossil to prove that human exist first?

3. this is love?
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations -- the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you -- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. (Deut 7.1-5)
However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites -- as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God. (Deut 20.16ff)

do not leave alive anything that breathes??

I believe in intelligents just not from the book which cant even see that the earth is not the center of the universe!

John, you're right on the point. The more people without brains, the easier to manipulate them. But then again, why do they need brains, when Jesus is hovering above and wispering into bushes ears? On a serious note, I'm fascinated by many expert points of view (sane, of course).

When overzealous Christians could not get Creationism taught in schools, they came up with a new idea, intelligent design. It is just a way to get their foot in the door, so that they can say, "if we are teaching intelligent design, then we should be able to teach Creationism". This is why we should fight against intelligent design.

Science class is and should always be about science. If you want to teach religion then you should call it religion class. But this class should not be about just Christian beliefs, but all religious beliefs.

In regards to the Theory of Evolution, let me clarify something for most people. The word theory when used in science is not the same as some idiot saying, "I have a theory about aliens..."
The definition of a scientific theory is as follows: "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena."

If your saying you don't believe in the Theory of Evolution, then maybe you should ask yourself if you believe in some of the other scientific theories like "The Theory of Gravity", "The Theory of Electricity", or Einstein’s "Theory of Relativity".

Hi deepak,

I completely agree with all that you have said, infact the book "Christ Consciousness" ny Norman Paulsen also stephen hawkins talks about the same thing. No matter what others might say i dont know how but from my life's experiences i have come to a understanding on science and religion. Some of which are:
1) God is a higher form of consciousness (all energy)and this human life is a path towards achieving that transient state. religion calls it rebirth.
2)God (Purest form of soul)is energy of a superior frequency which all souls try to achieve.There are 7 levels to reach the highest vibration and thats religion calls nirvana.
3)The different planes of existence is nothing but what we call as hell / heaven.

Its something which people should be informed about but should also be left to them to frame their own opinions.
I am looking fwd to the next posting

IntentBlog
Previewing your Comment
LARRY KING LIVE

Deepak,
You are correct about one thing; there is limited time to share enough of the categorically necessary information to illuminate the discussion of evolution in a brief television show. I'm pleased to see that you were able to enlighten the fellow panelists on the nature of 'pure consciousness' and its position in both scientific and religious rhetoric on national television. In particular, hilighting the
the continued denial given by the materialist mainstream for the subsistence of 'consciousness as evolution' and the meta-evolution of consciousness of consciousness. The need for science to step back from there analysis of matter's processes to see an undifferentiated and unqualified Witness, through which, the cognitive process that compose our scientific method approach the material world that is percieved and ultimately, identify this finding with the Ground/Zenith of material reality. Unfortunately however, we cannot expect for any authentic contemplative awareness to infiltrate evolutionary biological perspectives or the neuroscience disciplines to make apparent the more subtler limitations of this worldview for some time. Even more imperative for our times, and from the other angle implying that "if" the Christian fundamentalist exposition on the Genesis story as literal Truth isn't properly understood as 'context sensitive' to its written time, we can expect with certainty that there will be no room for advancing successful inter-religious and religious-scientific dialogue in this country. This will undoubtably come through understanding that cultural truths "are" subjected to an orgin of social-construction (especially creation mythos) and exist at times as metaphorical poetry in nature, of higher transcendent happenings. I believe that the education system is vitally responsible for this furthering and can propose for this pedagogically to younger generations, but only after its importance is acknowledged within system first. Also because of this limited and outdated interpretation, the second thing we can expect to see is the non-recognition of the 'primacy of consciousness' as the platform for which all religious truth is built and rational thought is mediated. Ultimately, consciousness is entangled at its deepest level with the quantum world, and therefore it cannot fully free itself to observe our natural world (you cannot fully get out of consciousness to view the world untainted otherwise you would cease to exist). Neither where you suggesting that science is incorrect and exists as the only means of acquiring truth or - rather - and as your good friend (one of my philosophical adherents) Ken Wilber would proclaim, "Different modes of consciousness don't just see a different world, they actually help to mold, shape and create a different world entirely." Overall, the key for the debate would be view evidence on rational non-biased terms and not skew it to fit unconscious recondite motives.

Ekam Sat, Vipra Bahuda Vadanti.

Quote of the night: Deepak
"..consciousness is a very legitimate pursuit in science, and it should be.
After all, who is this person? You know science has only focused on the observed
never on the observer. And I think it's time science begin to address this
question: Is consciousness an epi-phenomenon or is it the Ground of Being that creates the universe? And that's very legitimate as a scientific pursuit."

Always eloquent. Thank you Deepak,
Tat Twam Asi.

Justin R. Vero
Boulder

Deepak, as a physicist/grad.student your words were well taken on the show tonite. It is unfortunate that 3/5 of your fellow panelist could not comprehend the magnitude of your words.

An interesting comment Barbara made towards the end was that the debate will always lead to a religous scuffle. Fact is, the words of god, bible, etc. were always brought up by the same 3 panelists. My point is simple, not everyone can see the what we see, and not everyone is suppose to at this time.

I have a feeling 3 of the 5 panel members have had little scientific experimental experience. I am not suprised that they all lost scope of what intelligent design is about. I will admit that intelligent design is obviously easily misunderstood, therefore I could not expect 1000's of teachers to have the same basis for teaching it, which would be the only reason not to teach the subject.

Celestino

Man once thought a solar eclipse was caused by an angry dragon taking a bite out of the sun. We sould be equiping children with the inquisitive framework to discover that the goal of observation is to pose ever more profound questions, until the most likely explanation reveals its self to us. Unanswered questions, even ones that seem to defy any possible scientific conclusion, may one day be clarified through greater scope of observation. A quick survey of the history of human understaning of the natural world reveals that we have reliably announced with authority that a phenomena was so staggering in scope that a higher power must be responsible. Our own intelligence then eventually grasps hold of it, and we move on to the next largest enigma as being devine. You can set your anthropological watch to it.

Somewhere, God is having a good laugh.

Nice self promotion on the Larry King thing ;p

Too bad you didnt take the time to strangle the guy beside you! He was ANNOYING!

Blah blah blah obviously I thought what you had to say was cool or I wouldnt be here. Im glad there is some intelligence behind intelligent design, because Newsweek was s-s-s-slamming! it as pseudo-religious BS.

anyway, what really caught my ear was when you began talking about how the intelligence was acausal, meaning that it was outside of the human concept of cause and effect (and therefore time as we understand it)

this melds perfectly with what CS Lewis (a genius whatever you think about his books) had to say in The Screwtape Letters (read it, its well worth your time) some, in which he describes how the infinite intelligence of God (hardcores of both sides, ill use whatever terms i want, so suck it ;p).

He posited that God views all events simultaneously (much like an acid user ;p), and uses prayers almost like points in this matrice around which he shapes events. This does NOT violate free will, as all events are simultaneous but not happening.

Think of it as looking at a string of code without executing it(as inefficient a metaphor as that is).

All of which is off topic, but it just came out and since most other people seem off topic as well, well... doo de doo ;p

At least im not going into how doing evil in the service of God(greater good, the nation, etc) is still evil, and doing good in the service of the Devil(evil, self, etc) is still good.

And how much I love my late night rambling ;p

Deepak, made some very important observations against Darwin's evolution, Yet evolution happens to be the best explanation of our being, It is constantly being mis interpreted and simplified to the point that it looses its intended lustre. Deepak is guilty of that simplification and so are many so called evolutionist scientists.

I wonder if this comment will be lost amoung the many I have read. I enjoyed Dr. Chopras Larry King apppearence as usual he seemed to be the most logical of the 'experts'.

The main thoughts that always pops into my mind when the topic of intelligent design comes up is;
If there is intelligent design such as a God as an architect then why is there evil? What purpose does evil serve? Every week it seems that a innocent child is harmed what purpose in the grand design does this serve?

I beleive in intelligent design but I can't seem to organize my thoughts about it in a satisfiying way. For example life is truly a miracle, any parent can see that when they look in thier childs eyes. Yet where do we go after we die? where does our conciousness go? Does it go anywhere?

I have experinced way too many syncronicities to doubt that we influence our universe. But I can't help but wonder where do we go after we go?

It can't all be a waste of time as many scientists would lead us to beleive.

I'd be interested in hearing Dr. Chopras thoughts on this.

While I usually enjoy the issues brought up by Deepak, I think in the above discussion on evolution, he is more like a person with very limited knowledge of biology, geology, and chemistry.
Please read the comments posted by Cappy. I think they are right to the point and clearly differentiate between a scientist and a social philosopher.

The bottom line of this "discussion" is:

Who gets to own God? Science? Psychology? Theology? Government? The people? The church? McDonald's fast foods? Toyota? The media? The Americans? The Muslims? The Bhuddists? The Saudi Arabians? Israel?

A fight for "survival" in the face of a global economy rationalized in religious vs. everything else terms. Who gets to run the "world?"

Once we recognize the disguise, the mask on this face of emptiness, we can discover truth and the ground of our being and the fallacy of knowledge.

Enjoyed seeing you on the show Depak.

I just stumbled onto LKL, and was so enthralled with the conversation that I was compelled to produce my first ever blog.

Despite watching the show, I remain ignorant of the "intelligent design" and am unable to compare it to Darwinism or to my own speculations about our beginnings, the processes that led us here, and the forthcoming results. I am neither a scientist, a fundamental christian, nor an American. I write not to give my opinions on the religious aspect of the debate.

I write only to note how impressed I was that the debate was so rich as to allow Mr. Chopra to speak, if only briefly, to such a thing as the explorations of the evolutionary implications of meta-consciousness - on CNN.

This gives me small but meaningful assurances that both the spirit and the effect of free expression are alive in the mainstream media. I was also reminded that the burden of this freedom is the voice it gives to ignorance and fear.

I walked away wanting to learn more, and wanting to share my thoughts with others. Mainstream TV hasn't done that for me in a long long time.

Mr. Chopra,
I would like to take this opportunity to express a few of the things I've found. I've read several religions' core readings, and studied some theology in school, and I like the unifying theories. The things we find most prevelantly in most religion's cores. The Perrenial Philosophy. I think most of us have some part of it right, and none of us have it completely correct. I believe that the bible(interpreted in a cetain way) can co-exist with evolution theory ( tonights discussion ), or on a larger scale, with the gita, or the tao, or the teachings of buddha, or even the koran. I think it was the gita that quotes the personality of god describing the supreme being as as big as universe and as little as sub-atomic paritcles. It isnt expressed in those terms, but in numbers that translate into those terms (at my best recollection) I was raised as a methodist christian, and it was expressed to me by people in the church that god was everywhere and in everything, and part of everything. christians (or probably any belief) will always point to god's will when catastrophic events occur, and the gita speaks (I think) of actions having no value, good or bad. That is almost central to the buddha metamorphasis story, isnt it? It seems all religions can lead a person closer to god, but I also see the dogma of these religions keeping their flock in the dark. It would be nearly impossible to institutionalize something as wonderful and personal as spirituality.
It seemed that you were getting at something like perrenial philosophy on Mr. Kings show. Its too deep and impersonal for many of the shows viewers, but it re-sparked an interest in me, and hopefully showed another person or two a possibility/perception that they could live with.
thank you

Dear Deepak along with the woman scientist on the show who just quoted all these other scientists She has no view of her own.
Deepak if you know anything about QUANTUM PHYSICS do you not know what the smallest thing known to scientists who study the beginnings of matter is known as STRING THEORY... Do you know that all the scientists that are getting on board of string theory.. They cant see it , touch it , prove it , and what they concluded is that it is a form of theology.!! Why could you not know this DEEPAK?

I just saw you on Larry King live. It's a shame that people are so close minded about religion and evolution. I don't consider myself highly intelligent, but in my 42 years it seems to me there are just no answers to why we are here, why we are intelligent, etc. All I believe is we are GOD and GOD is as man made as the theory of evolution. The faster we learn this, the simpler life will be.

It was enjoyable watching the ignorance and religious blindness on the air. It was quite obvious to me, like the outcome of a wrestling match. It seems to me, the one with the nicest costume wins!

Well, thanx for taking the time to read me, was quite interesting, and was a pleasure to byte into something that will burn a few braincells!

Ciao!

Mr. Chopra,

I just finished watching LKL and wanted to thank you for consistantly bringing your views, which were in stark contrast to a few of the panelists, to the forefront. It is a pleasure to see someone who does not accept the bible to be a literal and accurate account manage to convey his views rationally.

I do not think the Darwin theory is entirely right or wrong, in fact I think part of the problem is that sort of thinking in itself, "my belief is right and yours is wrong"

I agree that the theory of evolution is incomplete and that a scientific pursuit to determine the gaps and flaws is completely worthwhile and justified. Although more than likely inappropriate for the classroom. What kind of teacher would you trust to teach this? I can think of only one teacher in my lifetime that would've been capable.

I am looking forward to your post tomorrow, and once again want to thank you for pursuing truth by not stopping after reading a few chapters of ANY holy book, but by being truthful to yourself.

An aside: do you regret calling the man's beliefs "mythological" at all?

Great show tonight, although not enought time to complete all the great ideas being discussed. Public TV, NPR, or prehaps Diane Rheems show might be more appropriate. I find your theory's facinating and very valuable, with all the talk regarding evolution or intelligent design, I would love someone to mention that Man, the assumed vangard of intelligent design and the undisputed heavyweight champion of Evolution or survival of the fittest, appears to be in some trouble. From my vantage point the future never looked more promising and simultaneously more uncertain. I think the more pressing question might be, what do we need to do, or how do we need to behave as a species so as to prevent ourselves from slipping into oblivion along with the so many species we have already assisted down that road with our irrational behavior.

A blog with good intentions---but too many people misunderstand "simple" things. Of course it's not that "simple" if you never thought along those lines before! ;)

Point 1: Probability 101
You intend to flip a coin. What is the chance that you will get heads? 50%. Tails? Also 50%. You flip the coin and you get heads. What is the chance you got heads? 100%. What is the chance you got tails? 0%. All the arguments along the lines of "the chance of us getting here AT RANDOM is so small that an intelligent being MUST be repsonsible" is garbage. No human knows (or will ever know) what the chance was---the system was (and still is) far too complex. The only thing we know is that we are here---the chance is 100%.

Point 2: Existence of Repeated Patterns
Surely there are events in this universe which are best described as "random", but the fundamental processes of this universe are hardly random. We see so many patterns repeated in nature because all things are subject to the same universal, fundamental processes.

I only caught the last half hour of Larry King tonight, but was totally behind what you had to say. Thank you for being one of the voices of reason. I'm okay with highschool students being taught all kinds of things, I think the more you are exposed to the better. It makes you an open-minded adult. I do think that science teachers are taught science themselves in college and cannot possible teach anything about creationism and the bible! What are people thinking?! If you want your children to learn about God, send them to church, don't expect the public schools to teach religion in science class!! Maybe there are other theories out there that could be discussed, I don't know, but the guy sitting next to you who said God created earth in 6 days! Well maybe, but that is not a proven fact, so leave that out of school. Right now the world needs tolerance and understanding of other peoples ideas and faiths, let's not make it worse by teaching things in school that have no place there. I have to say, the one thing any man ever did right was to write the constitution!!!
Peace

There is an old Chinese saying, "What your mind is today, is what your body will be tomorrow." The intelligence inside ourselves has influence on the physical world. It is energy, it moves & shifts molecules, and connects us to the divine. But we can only truly synchronize ourselves with the intent of the universe when we can let go of our selfish needs, because the universe is love. Face every situation with peace and happiness, because you are creating each situation. Let your thoughts and emotions be positive because you are creating the health of your body.

Hi everybody, This is my first ever blog site,(and blog) I saw you on larry king and knew of you from tv. I am a christian who has read the bible several times,and and have studied quantum physics,world relegions, and the occult....The answer's you seek are revealed by the intelligent designer through faith in his word,(the bible)...I know that makes some rage, but thats what knowledge of the HOLY ONE does, it infurriates all kinds of powers, pricapalities,and the learned,,The devil raged when he heard it, as it brings light about these questions,I wrote this for the true truth seeker.(the sinister forces dont want you know the truth,, The answer is the intelligent designer is not only very powerful but sustaines all life,he is a spirit, he is what science is just now discovering, dark matter, they dont know what to call it, they just know it holds everything together, and fills all time and space, and is the very life force, Well thats him, the one true GOD, the creator,and his "spirit" gives life and love.. And he wants all of us to know him...The muslims call him Allah, the one true God,the God of Moses, I call him Jahovah,or Lord, now HE Whoever you want to call him,he made a way for you and me to KNOW HIM,,,that's the question???Do You Know HIM??This is where it gets tricky, but follow me down one more line of reason, when you find out who he is , he reveals what HE has done and it beatiful.. And he sent his word to a lost and dying world. The word he sent is CHRIST, this is not a name but a title,The CHRIST AND JESUS IS HIS NAME.,,,,To some it up, without the name of JESUS the (Enemy forces will not back up)..So for those of you who think I'm a religous fanatic your wrong, I have just been attacked by these enemy forces,(Demons, fallen Angels, Satan and his minions)and they are real, And found out they only leave you alone if you profess the name of Jesus...So you cant talk about intelligent design without talking about the designer, and what he designed, ..if anyone has spiritual trouble call his name JESUS, and see a whole lot of change take place.When you say the name ,, he sends his spirit to live in you, thats the mystery of the world,Christ in you!!God bless you all...freewill, ask seek knock!

Deepak, I never get tired listening to you. You are always inspiring and articulate! I always enjoy your presence on Larry King and think you he should give you more time, it annoys me when he cuts you off.

Of course, I agree with you, that all of us are connected to a divine creative intelligence, a superconsciousness if you will, which creates all the 'creator gods' as well. I suppose if we just focus on that, that is our common denominator, that the superconsciousness is our unifying force between so many different viewpoints, belief systems and cultures.

Namaste.

If the universe is one, integrated whole, then the process of *differentiation* must be initiated not by random fluxuations in a universal box of entropy, but according to an objective purpose and thus a will and an intent, and therefore a desire, according to a design (which begins with the end in mind), and therefore a PLAN, the byproduct of which is a formative causation, which is "fruitful", relative to an ideal form, of perfection. A perfection to which the unfolding transformation, is drawn forth, toward an object, of its desire. Creation then, is desire,or intent as a two way street, which is initiated in the form of information or communication from the center and the source, as meaningful. That final object of mutual desire, is God, to which the rest, or the whole of the integrated universe, and all creatures in it, great and small, are subjects, as in a "kingdom" within which the emergence of complexity operates relative TO, everything else, in simultaneity, and to the apex, as the prime mover of existence, around which all things turn and from "who's" perspective alone (as objective intelligent observer), all is one, timeless, spaceless and in perfect harmony. God then is the apex of a light point, the cone of which is existence itself, in all form and function, willing things according to an unfathonably mysterious design, plan and intent of the will. Furthermore, every single process in the universe involves the flow of information, or communication, in the form of the emission or absorption of a single photon of light.

Though it may not be entirely appropriate to anthropomorphise God, there is certainly a who-ness, to the oughtness, of the isness of being since infinite intelligence, implies rationally, a supreme being, and a perfect and perfectly objective observer, to which everything is subject, and at the mercy of, having no completely independent autonomous movement, of it's own, which is not contingent upon everything else.

As a final point of relativity, in terms of our owqn human consciousness, which Stephen Hawking believe MUST be included in any GUT and cannot be excluded, and when framed within a historical context, relative to the individual AND to a strong anthropic principal, - positing the notion of the individual soul or innermost point of "I am" observation, as a created thing, or of the little I am as a chip of the old old BIG "I AM" of being and becoming Big Block, is not so far fetched at all. And neither for that matter, is the notion that the intent of the will relative to our human existence and experience, might be communicated by God in terms of the relative framework of a family of origin, from which our own personal existence arises and has it's being on a first things first bases.

Sins of the father.
Spiritually, our fatal flaw is in fact a degenerate disorder of sin, or of trying to live according to a divine law and order, relative to what we should and should not do "because I told you to" as in "don't eat that apple" of sexual impropriety.

Causally, our evolution, as spiritual beings, requires a familial framework of love, which would free us from the bondage of operating relative to a "not" which is both impossible, in the final analysis, and therefore absurd.

Thus, in my view, the only possible resolution to the problem of human existence, having dominion at the apex of life on earth, involves a resolution to the problem of a corrupting degnerative disorder, of sin and suffering, and this resolution then requires a reconciliation, and one which, being subjective observers, relative to an absolute truth, we cannot make or extend from where we are, from our perspective or viewpoint. We cannot engineering our own salvation.

Again, the same dynamic, expressed, in a type of self referrencial holographic, explicate rendering of an implicate reality, where nothing exists or can exist in a vacuum of communication, and the point of relativity cannot be denied, since there is no such thing as isolate consciousness, and no man is an island.

Lastly, since at the most fundamental level, there is no such thing as time, or of cause and effect, the the whole notion of a causal evolution is equally absurd. We cannot really say that this happened "because" that happened, unless the causality may be traced from here and now back through the infinite to the uncreate center of source of creation, in the same way that we cannot really control the outcome of the future from a purely causal frame of reference. We can only ride of the wave.

The wave is the eternally present moment, of now, which may even be eternally recurrent as well, if modern conception of quantum physics are to be believed.

In this way the dynosaurs are here now as we were/are there then, where everything is enfolded at THIS moment in time. The creation is now and the word of creation is now, since nothing is unless framed relation to, everything else, as communicated, both in terms of a "speaking" and a response, and the meaning of life is the response you get from what is communicated. God's purpose then, relative to us, and in terms of our relativity to one another, is the provoke a response - not just to nature, but to the uncreated center and source of being.

The only answer then, to the question of because why, particularly when dealing with the causal absurdity of sin, when framed in the context of complexity (small beginnings having large outcomes), may be "because I love you". From this perspective the cross of Jesus Christ may be interpreted in a whole new way, in terms of a taking of responsibility, for the paradox of sin, where all evil, as a degenerative, and therefore as a genetic AND learned behavior, becomes relative, to the victim, and all goodness, mercy, truth, beauty and justice the ONLY absolute, that we can be absolutel certain of at the end of the day, in the final analysis.

When framed historically, relative to the individual journeyor, and active historical participant, by neccessity (of choice), one could very well interpret the meaning of the cross as a divine casually connected form of communication, which posits the cross of Christ, and resurrection (life meeting life) as a clearl statement, above the very nature of human liberty, relative to God, who's love is boundless, but who's universal frame of reference, in human terms, is bounded by Civility.

If you are going to think it Deepak, then you may as well set aside your own contempt prior to investigation, which respect to the meaning of Christianity, and think it like ALL the way through, in terms of an ultr-rational psyco-spiritual and highly pratical framework, of the relativity of human being, relative to God.

To be is the be percieved, BUT, we cannot engineer our own salvation, and are in a locked box of an eternally recurrent present momement of "I-ness" as wholly subjective observers, and therefore no word, no pratice, and well, nothing on our part, is going to be able to effectively and permamently, in a wholly auhtentic way, reconcile us to the center and source of being and becoming.

We can talk about it all we want, but the philosophical simply MUST be translated into the physical, pratical and experiencial, or it is fruitness, and mere sound.

The though, and the word, and the response, is the thing itself - like a tiny seed planted in rich soil.

Life is meaningless and absurd, and ultimately insulting, unless there is one who can say in all truth, that "I" have come, so that you will have life and have it to the full, even to the point of overflowing.

IMO, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, refreshes the cosmic joke, that "there is nothing to fear" in a self reinforcing, self referrential eternal reccurence, of sheer joy, and therefore, of laughter, under the stars of the heavens above.

"As above, so below."

I saw Larry King, and I must say, you really showed everyone up! It's people like you and me that make the real progress in this world, and I wish you the best of luck. Maybe one day we can collaberate formally. I would be greatly interested in it.

Also, I would like to point out that I am a very devout Catholic, but I cannot deny the immense gifts of intelligence and reason that God gave me, and obviously you. I see the impefections in religions (including mine) and their texts (including the bible), and do not deny them. Likewise, I cannot allow my rilgious beliefs to deny the obvious truth that lies in front of me. If anything, you could say my true faith is the relentless pursuit of perfect truth.

Why did I state that? Becuase I feel that we seek that same thing. That ultimate truth, which unfortunitly is likely infinite in it's depth and complexity. That's why when I saw you speak, I was so compelled to come here and post. Also, to verify with my own example that living with religion, science and the quest for truth is not an impossible dream.

Heh, maybe something more then idle chatter will come of this, and act as another example of that universal intelligence we both seek to understand.

This is my first time posting to this blog. I saw the CNN show tonight and thanks to Deepak getting the plug in, I managed to find this place of great debate.

I understood what the lady was saying when she said science is merely a methodology and as a consequence cannot take a leap of faith.

Then it would it be fair to say that science is a material process? Science seeks answers in matter. Science therefore is the examination of matter.

Deepak touched on the question of the observed and the observer and that science fails to examine the observer, in actual fact as he stated, it tends to examine the observed in far more detail.

This again I could understand. When I see these debates in shows like I just saw on CNN, it seems to me that we as people are more concerned with protecting what are ideas are rather than engaging in dialogue regarding the possibilities of life or whatever.

Maybe this happens because the animal instinct of survival makes its way into the psyche, after all if our ideas get trashed what are we left with?

The other funny thing I observe and I say this in all humility is that a lot of us as people seem to have answers. Information and what you know is far more important than observing, listing and learning. This would go back to what I mentioned above in that we focus more on the material in terms of what is observed rather than understanding the observer.

This of course brings us to the question of identity which is the quality or condition of being the same as something else. Based on this would there be an inherent flaw in relation to the observer if forming conclusions based on information which is inherently limited. Case in point, what I know today may not be true tomorrow?

Then in steps philosophy and the charge that it is just an intellectual debate on life and so on.

So as one may see, information as I am indulging in right now has a consequence of just going in circles with variations due to additions over time.

Anyway enough for now I will await the Deepak’s next post.

Paul Hegarty
http://www.learningfromdvds.com/blog/

WHere to start? Interesting show. I thought you held up well and started to gringe when the zealot lashed out at you and then relaxed once again as I saw that you were going to be ok.

Maybe a little background on myself. I was born in 1959 a Roman Catholic. What a mass of confusion.

Tried Born Again Christianity(Fundamentalist Christian) back in it`s beginnings about 1983-84 and it gave me a great appreciation for the quiet way in which the theatrics of the Catholic mass was delivered. It didn`t send me back to the church but did give me an appreciation.

Studied and absolutley loved biology & physics for a few years but must say I`m no genius and not even a scientist. I`m what Werner Erhardt used to call "A guy in a dinner".

When I was given a problem to write about in the seventh grade (1977) concerning scientific method, for no apparent reason I remember writing that it was imperfect. That the scientist doing an experiment depending on acurate measurements concerning radioactive readings was completely unaware that the smoke detector over his head depended on a radioactive device. I got a bad grade for that smart ass answer. And I hadn`t herd about quantum physics yet or the observer effecting the observed or the inability to measure both velocity and position simultaneously let alone anthropic theory (a term I just discovered this evening).

Spent ten years with Werner Erhardt and Associates doing EST. the Forum and various seminars and such as well as intensive volenteering. It was a fabuous experience and I gained a lot of self knowledge as well as self growth. I especially liked the concept that we create our reality. Whether it`s true or not is unimportant to me. I liked it and applied it and many great things happened in my life.

It was there that I discovered existentialism and I just loved the first mental visual picture I was given of it. This term "throwness". It was such a beautiful visual idea. That we were just thrown onto the planet like some blob. That we had no purpose other then the ones we were assigning ourselves. There was no meaning to any of this. We were making it all up. That was fun for a while.

When the time came for me to move on I remember talking to my father (a highly educated Jamaican borned Afro-American medical doctor) about it and he said, and don`t take this in a wrong way, he said that slavery was good for the slaves as long as they didn`t know any better but once they stepped outside of the box and saw what was really going on there was no going back. My fathers that way when conveying ideas like why it was ok that I nolonger was finding vslue in LandMark Education (formerly Erhardt and Associates).

And then for a long time I just wandered. From country to country. One day I found myself in India and sitting in a 10 day Vipassana meditation course. Ahhhh the Buddha.

So what I would say about what I saw this morning on the Larry King Show (I`m in Switzerland)is that that reverand was scary.

The woman needs to give high school students in America much more credit. A quote I just loved from one of the earlier posts concerning teaching intelligent design

"Those "observed scientific facts" should be taught at the kindergarten and elementary levels so that by the time these students have gotten to high school--they have been allowed to develop the abilities to open up the "genetic software" locked away in the DNA going unused in the other 90% of the brain and nervous system."

As long as the teaching is "what we know is so and so" and "these are beliefs" and "these are theories" and "this idea comes from these sources" then why not give the young people the opprtunity for debate. I mean come on the information is out there anyway and isn`t school suppose to be a forum for constructive healthy minded stimulating debate. I mean what else do you want them to do. Throw big red rubber balls at each other in the gymnasium?

The kids are going to make there own minds up anyway no matter what we tell them.

To Larry King I would have used the Sphynx instead of Mount Rushmore. Truely nobody knows who built the Sphynx. You can show me all the archealogical proof you want to about who you "know" built the Sphynx and what I`m going to ask you is "did you meet them"?

Also concerning survival of the fittest, and here I have no answer, how come so many mentally inferior people are incharge and there are so many people like my wife that if she didn`t put her glasses on the night stand would not only not be able to find them but would not be able to find the fork to put in the food they couldn`t cook, in other words she would not be functioning and these people are in charge. And if you think that`s a politically incorrect statement then your going to have to get over yourself.

In closing I would like to say I am not a Buddhist. I practise a Buddhist meditation. I read Buddhist text. In the beginning I was under the false assumption that the Buddha did not believe in god. A misconception that other people have. In closer examination what "I" learned is that the Buddha was saying since we cannot prove the existence and/or nonexistence of god, and no one can, let`s not waste precious time debating something that no one can give you undeniable proof of. Instead let us look at the varifiable things that are causing the suffering that we see and experience in the world and look for the varifiable ways to relieve it. What a scientist he was.

In another blog that I read earlier on this site a commentor was saying that when he gets jammed up and can`t think of any solutions for the world he resorts to meditation. My suggestion is start with meditation. Daily. In fact that should be the most important event in your day. Everyday. 2-4 hours minimum and leave the heavy lifting to "DOG"

A friend of mine who is a world renown soil microbiologist did some research for a genetic engineering company. They were able to create a simple microbe so virulent that if it had got out of the labs unchecked it could have destroyed EVERY LIVING PLANT!!!

Evolution is a plane that would repeatedly crash after every take off. Sorry.

"There is no time, only presence..." unknown

Why could it not be that "God" is a "feeling", the goodness of consciousness itself. This thought or theory seems so simple as we go into discussions that feature all knowing people; particularly leaders of the Christian faith and other religious extremists who refuse to think critically or question. Religion itself is basically about raising money for its own selfish reasons. It has become a fear based entity that relies on coersion to convert. It is rearing its head to become a political football, ridiculously evading the very important issues of our time. If we as human beings practiced the goodness of our conscious with God as a feeling, and as the intelligent beings most of us are, we wouldn't need the moneyed tax-free churches as our supposed moral compass. In fact, basic in home teachings on character and truth would be far better and much less dangerous than the atrocities of warring religions. We should be at least that evolved, and yes, the human is evolving so there may be hope unless the bible believers create a self fullfilling prophecy of destuction to our amazing and natural world which we are now decimating due to the many archaic belief systems. All religious books were and still continue to be written by mortal men, and thousands of years ago, who knows what kinds of drugs enabled these writings, or could it have been mental delusions when God spoke directly to them. I will continue to believe God is a feeling, and try to keep goodness flowing. People are drowning in religious doctrine, and it is becoming sicker by the day. Pat Fisher

"No credible scientific theory has answered these dilemmas, and progress is being discouraged, I imagine, thanks to fundamentalist Christians. By hijacking the whole notion of intelligent design, they have tarred genuine scientific issues with the stain of religious prejudice."

I have a request, can we view a parallel that is documented in science?

We are at an age of technology, this technology was created purely by our scientists. The creation of a transistor. This single creation has evolved in our universe at speeds that is unnatural, driven by our evolving understanding to miniturize this single creation.
We have researches that continues to evolve this creation to intelligence and possibly self-aware.

The evolution of a biological entity is much more complex but our current technology can mimic the natural entity, which means that man may someday be copied technologically.

We seek the evolution of biological entity when the evolution of scientific creation is right in front of us, in a time frame that many may agree that we have witnessed this evolution. The creation of a simple transistor have evolved to manage and/or dictate the lives of many of us in an environment.

We can say that this is not the same; yet, we have a creation, we have evolution, and we will have intelligence because we are designing this intelligence.

Good form tonight on LKL.

There was a kind of irony in the fact that your comments on consciousness/quantum theory and the anthropic principle might have provided the creationists with an intellectual toe-hold in the debate with scientists; the notion that if consciousness is the ground of reality, then the design is not just intelligent but intelligible, consciousness permeating the field...
all the while
the creationists seem to be missing the boat
though the ship of science seems to be drifting
in the direction of spiritualists,
albeit, non-western non-fundamental spiritualists

Perhaps in the classroom, everything should be on the table from Evolution to Creationism. How better to understand something than to look at what it is not. We should discuss Quantum Theory alongside the remarkable accounts of Creation in Upanishads and the Popol Vuh of the Mayan People from Mesoamerica which essentially describes the instantaneous "unfolding" into physical reality of what was initially just an idea about humanity.

I think children will gravitate to the inescapable mystery at the center of the debate, that thoughts are things
and that with ideas, creation occurs
and re-occurs.

Thank you Mr. Deepak Chopra for presenting an intelligent and tolerant argument both Atheists and Christians only show intolerance.

However I think that as far as the debate about “intelligent design” goes. Is this not just a rehash of the “first throwers” argument presented by Thomas Moore during the Middle Ages? The problem with this argument is that if you say that the world or life is so complex or intelligent that it must have been created by something that is intelligent and presumably intelligent is that it raises the question of who created that creator (aka “God”). Under this logic “God” would simply be too complex to have existed on his own and therefore would need a creator. This is a circular argument. (a side note I think that this proves that the universe came from something infinitely simple (a Tao) not a God).

But anyway, this is a very metaphysical argument that should be presented in a Philosophy class where it can be given its full do. In Biology classes students will have enough to worry about trying to learn how photosynthesis, mitosis, and cellular respiration works to worry about the origin of the universe. To think that this very broad topic can be just slapped into a science class will only lower the amount of science they learn, and not cover metaphysics enough to teach them anything about that either.

Now, I also think that having a philosophy class required might be a good thing for high schools to do because I don’t think that most high school students have a good logical base for their religious beliefs (whether they are Christian , Atheists, or Muslim… Eastern Religions already have a good logical base for their religions).

Thank you Deepak, for an interesting debate on LKL. I think you are heading in the right direction, that there is some kind of intelligent or organized influence in the universe. However, I do not think this stems from a god. In fact, I don't think the universe could care less about us specifically. We are but a grain of sand, if that, in a cosmological sea of sand. All of the grains are being washed to and fro, caught up in the tidal influence of the universe that we cannot yet explain, nor can we escape. Our science has not evolved yet to the point of being able to understand these influences, or intelligence if one wishes to define it that way, so for now some people attribute a god-like quality to explain that which we haven't an answer for. As science expands its knowledge and makes new discoveries, we will find some answers and solve some mysteries. Until then we must keep questioning and seeking answers. But I think it is preposterous to assume that some divine entity sits on a throne somewhere, guiding all of the universe into play, and is keenly interested in our every thought and deed. One only needs to contemplate the vastness of the universe and all that it contains to see that we are but a microbe in this infinite landscape that is paid no more attention than we pay to the microbes living on our skin at this very moment. How interested are we in the thoughts and deeds of those microbes? We now know that the sun does not revolve around the earth, but I often wonder if we have ever really accepted the knowledge that the universe does not revolve around man.

Evolution is nothing but Emergence with a pastward orientation.

Our seamless sub-nuclear unity and our already established global interdependence - both demonstrate that the whole is already a single entity.

The problem of not being able to realize this arises solely from the prevailing outdated fragmented paradigm.

So.

Here is a rough revision for the explanation of Intent on the top right corner of the intentblog site.

Intent is the emergent non-local consciousness gradually coming to One's own in all of us.

The unification of human identity from myriad discrete and separate individuals to being a single non-local individual - is occuring more rapidly and effortlessly in the East, becaue the West is more deeply attached to the old mistaken paradigm.

This revision is being suggested because consciousness is neither Eastern nor Western. Only bodies and minds are local.

To posit an Asian consciousness is to affirm the divisive paradigm of regional or local or individual consciousness, and to contradict the very essence of the emergent global mind-shift.

Bravo, Deepak! You utilized your time on the show VERY well and communicated the concepts so eloquently. If the other panelists and host had been practicing meditation on a regular basis, they all would have been able to comprehend what you said. Their inner urge would have driven them to listen with their hearts... I have a feeling they all still did.

Think of all the viewers who heard your comments and thought... "Wow, I really do BELIEVE" It is all possible; It is all happening: the Peace, the Love, the Harmony.

The Human Race will collectively acknowledge that all things are connected, that the field of infinite possibility exists. Their own definition of God will ultimatey be congruent with the idea that All is God

What a fantastic resource for information this blog has become in only a few hours!! Thanks for all that you all do all the time. :)

Thank you Deepak, for an interesting debate on LKL. I think you are heading in the right direction, that there is some kind of intelligent or organized influence in the universe. However, I do not think this stems from a god. In fact, I don't think the universe could care less about us specifically. We are but a grain of sand, if that, in a cosmological sea of sand. All of the grains are being washed to and fro, caught up in the tidal influence of the universe that we cannot yet explain, nor can we escape. Our science has not evolved yet to the point of being able to understand these influences, or intelligence if one wishes to define it that way, so for now some people attribute a god-like quality to explain that which we haven't an answer for. As science expands its knowledge and makes new discoveries, we will find some answers and solve some mysteries. Until then we must keep questioning and seeking answers. But I think it is preposterous to assume that some divine entity sits on a throne somewhere, guiding all of the universe into play, and is keenly interested in our every thought and deed. One only needs to contemplate the vastness of the universe and all that it contains to see that we are but a microbe in this infinite landscape that is paid no more attention than we pay to the microbes living on our skin at this very moment. How interested are we in the thoughts and deeds of those microbes? We now know that the sun does not revolve around the earth, but I often wonder if we have ever really accepted the knowledge that the universe does not revolve around man.

I wonder if you will be able to read all these responses....
You were most impressive on Larry King - the only participant with an open mind! I would love to meet you to debate these issues if only for what I would learn from others. You certainly define the issues well.
Personnally I wonder if dna cound also be the product of evolution - certainly man evolved in a very short portion of the world's existance, why not dna. Remember too that only the successful survive.
Intelligence is usually offered as the explanation for what we do not understand or can not explain. Science continues to seek answers with open mind, expects critique on all claims and continues to astound us. Religion on the other hand hides behind perhaps wonderful but certainly archaic text and principle and seldom produces anything new and worthwhile.
Why are only successful products of evolution found? Simply because the odds of finding any one depends on the number that existed, and only the successful multiplied in great numbers. There probably was a far greater number of unsuccessful mutations than successful ones, but the successful ones reproduced for long periods in great numbers.
Fur, feathers etc similarly survived through success. The species that survived had to be adapted to their environment and diverse in nature to avoid competion.
My time does not permit further discussion of all your points but it appears to me that the world of today can and will be proven to be the product of "evolution"(small e).
Cheers, A

Deepakji

Pranaam.

I just have to say that you are truly a bodhisattva to continue to share such rare wisdom in the face of such diatribe. If it isnt intelligent design that places one such as you in the midst of such overwhelming rambling ignorance so that there can be some balance in the world order then I wonder what we would call it?

love
anusheh

Deeps, thank your for your comments and insight for furthering discussion on the Larry King Live. However, it is apparent that fundamentalists or religious scriptures over simplify complex issues including creation of the universe. The over simplification is to the extent that these religious explanation becomes a 'fairy tale'.

To say universe was created by God in seven or six days and we are descends of Adam/Eve (who ate the dreaded ‘apple’) is over simplifying a complex problem that requires the knowledge and understanding of several branches science, social science, mathematics, etc.

I totally agree with you that Intelligent Design should be discussed without the Biblical or other religious explanation. If we believe Holy Book(s) is the word of God, who is absolute and perfect than there is no room for growth, expansion, improvement, or creation. However, Science needs to think out of boundaries that it has bound itself into. Thanks to Science and sacrifices of people like Galileo we know more about Universe than we did before. It is OK to say that we don’t have all answers to creation of the Universe or Evolution of Mankind. It is work in progress. Maybe Adam/Eve fairy tale explanation is an option for toddlers. I’m sure their words will be “Are you kidding me!”

What we all don't collectively realise is that we are the Creators/designers of this machine, and that we've entered it to condition our energies. Once we realise that we are the designers in unity, all arguments will stop.

Hi, I just saw Larry king’s discussion on intelligent design. I do not believe in god and I must admit I am inclined to dismiss intelligent design as a flawed argument, especially since to believe in ID, you must rely on a creator that cannot be studied scientifically. If the only alternative to a creator were chance (I am talking about the creation of intelligent life) then I believe those who believe in ID are not considering that chance provides for possibilities that can be proved mathematically and observed to a degree vastly greater than we can observe an intelligent designer in the way the theory suggests.

Science, at first may persuade against the existence of god, but when I took up an interest in cosmology, I began to understand that science cannot disprove the existence of a god. I believe that scientific evidence can be interpreted in a way that is factually based and yet leave room, or even proof of a god, providing that one is willing to tweak their idea of god a bit. Here is my argument:

According to overwhelming evidence, the universe started as a singularity. In a singularity, particles, physical forces, and time are united into a single point, infinitely small and infinitely dense. Singularities exist inside black holes.

The importance of this is that we cannot explain what occurred during the fraction of a second after the expansion of the singularity (this is called Plank time). After the plank time, the energies and various properties that the universe had can be recreated and studied in particle accelerators, at the plank time, science cannot observe measure or hypothesize (ironically the big bang theory is undoubtedly –a theory-). In the universe there are some fundamental numbers that cannot be derived from any theory or hypothesis, one example is the mass of an electron. This simple fact means that the unobservable conditions during the plank time must provide for the fundamental laws that govern our universe.

Because science has proven (you will have to read up on this one) the difrent forces in our universe where once unified (except for gravity, the conditions where this force was unified are those that occurred during the plank time, and cannot be reproduce in a particle accelerator) into a single force (or simply, a feature of nature), we can say that nature is an intelligent creator and yet we do not stray outside scientific fact. If you think about it, it makes sense to call nature an intelligent creator. Science has proven that at a point in time early in our universe, the electromagnetic force, the weak force and the strong force were unified into one force, and their properties were defined by the conditions at that time. So if the fundamental forces of nature where not at one point in the history of the universe, you can imagine the implications of this. Things as universal as math would have taken another shape during the early universe. How can intelligence exist in conditions where intelligence itself had no definitive meaning. If what you want to believe in is intelligent design, then the only answer can be that nature is the intelligent designer. This is my point, that nature is an intelligent creator. I have saved myself the trouble of quoting scientific material and such, but whatever point you believe is not true, I encourage you to read up on it.

As nature (the universe) took shape, it evolved in the direction that allowed for the existence of intelligent beings like us. This is part of the Anthropic principle. Now, we are biological beings, so our intelligence is therefore natural. Whatever we create, it must therefore be a product of nature if we are willing to take such a broad perspective. We can honestly hypothesis that in the future, we will always become more intelligent. We can observe how going back in evolution, we become less intelligent. My rambling here is simply to make the point that as time goes by, the forces of nature work together in such a way that intelligence (the processing of information) increases, at least in the extent that we (and science) can observe.

With my blabbering, the information I present is all scientific and yet it can still take a meaning that at least some religious or spiritual inclined people can accept. And it is in a way related to what the ID movement advocates. Nature is moving (please note that by nature I mean the universe. I am talking about nature in its most fundamental ways.) in a direction that allows for the constant increase of intelligence. Whether the purpose of this direction (by direction I am talking about the evolution of the universe) is to sustain greater intelligence or not, we cannot know. But you can interpret this tendency, and if you believe yourself as a product of nature, with a stretch of the imagination you can say that nature is some higher form of intelligence.

I am not a scientist, I am merely an enthusiast, please forgive me if I have committed any error. English is no my first language so spare me of any grammar of spelling criticism.

curiously, right before posting I saw in deepak's post that he mentioned the anthropic principle. My guess is that what I wrote is much like what Deepak says. I have never read a deepak chopra book but amazingly I have an autographed copy my mom gave me. I will read it. I do not intend to be an expert or act like one. I wrote this whole thing without reading material on the subject of intelligent design and now I plan on posting it thats all.

Deeps, thank your for your comments and insight for furthering discussion on the Larry King Live. However, it is apparent that fundamentalists or religious scriptures over simplify complex issues including creation of the universe. The over simplification is to the extent that these religious explanation becomes a 'fairy tale'.

To say universe was created by God in seven or six days and we are descends of Adam/Eve (who ate the dreaded ‘apple’) is over simplifying a complex problem that requires the knowledge and understanding of several branches science, social science, mathematics, etc.

I totally agree with you that Intelligent Design should be discussed without the Biblical or other religious explanation. If we believe Holy Book(s) is the word of God, who is absolute and perfect than there is no room for growth, expansion, improvement, or creation. However, Science needs to think out of boundaries that it has bound itself into. Thanks to Science and sacrifices of people like Galileo we know more about Universe than we did before. It is OK to say that we don’t have all answers to creation of the Universe or Evolution of Mankind. It is work in progress. Maybe Adam/Eve fairy tale explanation is an option for toddlers. I’m sure their words will be “Are you kidding me!”

I saw you on the Larry King show this evening. The debate that some politicians are trying to engage, as far as the

intelligent design theory, is exactly the same type of confusion tactics that have been spread through centuries of

governmental controls, so as to condition us to remain dolcile and continue quietly forward on this machine that is civilized

society. The powerful politicians who are bringing this up at this specific point in time are pushing the "don't look behind

the curtain Dorothy" mentality. That is to keep us ignorant and "non-active" members of this planet and OUR reality. I

believe this is the time to bring to light the ignorance that people are allowing and have allowed themselves to be

conditioned by. The facts stand and there should be no more questions of whether or not a pre-understood version of god had

something to do with our evolution. This god that is now finally being known is much greater that any established

definitions or mediums of spirituality. This god can possibly be called the literal Yahweh, in that the name of the force

that is behind our emotions and our creation of thought can never be spoken, in that it hasn't been properly defined. That

is where I believe, we should be concentrating the beginning of our human efforts, to define that force and spread that

knowledge to every mountain top and (optimistically) as a "World Society" humans all over the world will be able to start

working towards the advancement of all humankind together as one. We can take the educational system and reorganize the

future curriculums to include our new found knowledge and propel ourselves into our future. These subjects and relating

fields will be taught to everyone. We could begin teaching humans that we can affect our entire existence. I believe if

there was ever a time for us to understand and try to bring our planet out of the dark ages of religious tyrrany and

governmental corruption, it is now.

Sincerly,
Recent viewer of "what the bleep do we know"

Deepak,
You have an obvious hatred for fundamentalist Christians. Every time you are on a panel with one of these guys, the sarcasm just drips from your mouth. Not that I agree with these guys; in fact, I think they are way off and have an obvious problem getting beyond their "the Bible says it is true, therefore it is true" mind set. They also display arrogance, and I kind of expect it from them. But you are supposedly on a higher plane of thinking. Yet, you disgrace yourself by how you treat these people. Why don't you simply present your arguments without having to try to display your superiority over these people?

Jimmy

Michael Joseph Fey:

Yes, you have been very judgemental. You are a young soul my friend, very young in your quest for knowledge. Your pompous attitude, while attempting to represent Ramtha, is akin to an ignorant fundamentalist Christian who has only been exposed to one supposed truth and ignorantly imposes their predjudiced and limited belief system(s) onto others.

Go out in the field, put your blinders on, and find your card. Keep practicing. The Quantum world only exists in Yelm. The real question is, would Ramtha ever set a 'physical' example for his students, by actually physically performing one of the exercises he condones and showing his students how easily it can be accomplished by a 'true master'? He/she never has, and never will. What does this say?

Has Ramtha ever put blinders on in front of an audience and found his card immediately in the field? It's never happened. None of the actions that Ramtha professes can be 'attained', that include supernatural, ascension, extra-ordinary feats, or the like, have been demonstrated by him, yet I've heard him claim to be able to do them at ease - sad.

Isn't it odd that in all other practices or exercises, whether it be Yoga, meditation, martial arts, or anything for that matter, the teacher demonstrates the practice for his/her students by physically showing them how it's done. Ramtha is the only teacher that does not! Alot of talking, but no action. Action speaks louder than words.

Go spend another $1,000+ for your next event at the ranch (or rather give it to JZ), drink alot of wine and then impose your supposedly gained agnostic knowledge onto others, as it apparently makes you feel superior.

Do you actually know who you are following, and who you are advertising? Young, but learning the hard way :)

Best wishes to you - young soul.

I enjoyed Caddy's retort to Deepak's excellent questions. I'd love to hear Deppak's response. Keep up the debate Deepak! It's needed, and will eventually benefit all of us.

It's impossible for humans to comprehend infinity but it's important to keep infinity in mind when thinking about evolutionary dynamics. An infinite number of entities are constantly impacting on each other creating an infinite number of possibilities toward an infinite amount of complexities.

I want to add to my previous comment:

Isn't it odd that in all other practices or exercises, whether it be Yoga, meditation, martial arts, or anything for that matter, the teacher demonstrates the practice for his/her students by physically showing them how it's done. Ramtha is the only teacher that does not! Alot of talking, but no action. Action speaks louder than words.

Add on:

Ramtha speaks often about Jesus, Buddha and the other 'ascended ones' that he supposedly routinely converses with. Even those incredible teachers physically demonstrated their amazing knowledge in physical forms, whether it be healing the blind, curing leprocy, or turning one fish into many. Parables, or not, even Ramtha has admitted to some of these amazing supernatural feats by these previous great entities, yet, Ramtha, who claims to be able to easily perform the things he has his students spend years striving to attain, has yet to do them once, for one of his students, with verifiable witnesses. Again, sad.

Deepak, as much as I admire and respect your efforts in this plane of existence, I agree with Jimmy's commentary. I too, watched your entire CNN debate, and found you to come across, at times, as superior and arrogant to those Christian "mythology" lovers :)

I agree - you should also be "humble", as per Kate's post to Cappy - good advice in general.

"To say the DNA happened randomly is like saying that a hurricane could blow through a junk yard and produce a jet plane."

This strawman caricature of evolutionary theory was first phrased by a Christian creationist, and is a strong indicator that anyone who repeats it (it litters the internet in hundreds of creationist websites) has little understanding of science. Random mutations among genes doesn't mean evolution is a random process; natural selection is the exact opposite of randomness.

It's interesting that Mr. Chopra's entry is full of the same errors that Christian creationists make, including wrongfully enlisting Einstein on their side; yet he wants to "rescue" intelligent design from the Christian creationists ... There's more to this than irony, but the naivete of supporting this religio-political movement to "bring God back" to American society (and they mean "God" as a disembodied Man, not the only slightly de-anthropomorphized "cosmic intelligence") is most unhelpful to those of us who want our religious freedom maintained. The same result of the interview with Larry King (a fight about personal beliefs ... a demonstration of Us vs. Them which even Chopra participated in, saying his creativity-god is better than the pastor's mythological god) is precisely the "open debate" these anti-intellectualists will open up. Starting religious brawls is exactly what America was NOT about, 200 years ago (if anyone paid attention in history class?)

Ultimately, the "debate" is about whose god wins because the only controversy over evolution is a religious controversy, and Dr. Richards is playing the standard Discovery Institute play-on-words when he denies the religious nature of ID "theory" -- it's a religious alternative to science. In fact it's nothing but an analogy with no evidence, to demonstrate a religious precept (namely, God's existence). And more specifically still, it's the Argument for God from the Analogy of Design. Analogies don't demonstrate how reality is, they are leaps from what is observed to things that can't be observed (else there'd be no need for an analogy, duh).

The aim of "opening the debate" and "teaching the controversy" is to build on people's suspicions of science (especially evolution, since it raises questions about the unquestionable -- humanity's presumed extra-specialness over the rest of nature), and it tries to cast more suspicion, using only religious sentiments and uninformed or even fabricated criticisms (ID has nothing positive to say; ask next time someone says "Teach the controversy" if they can name what ID Theory says, and see if they can say it without resorting to mere analogies and without only evolution-bashing). People naturally tend to fill in the gaps of knowledge with something they were told in their youth was certain, for example, God. And the questioning process stops, because the reassurance of certainty is most person's goal. The senator who likened ID and the "teach the controversy" subterfuge got it right: this is a rehash of medieval authority opposing scientific progress because scientific methodology leaves out the unprovable supernatural assumptions of religion. Nature has an unpleasant habit of stepping all over religion's toes wherever it has made dogmatic pronouncements about nature; and, as a nation of people with "rights" some Americans who don't understand those rights will protest when Nature does that. (I'm sorry, but the notion of a god-made purpose to life is not in science's domain ... that's inescapably a religious problem.) The protest has evolved over the past decades from "the Bible is right and evolution is wrong" to "evolution is wrong more often than those stupid scientists know, so let's look for alternatives" (alternatives inevitably leading to "Who is the Designer?" and that leading to a fight of Us versus Them).

Deepak,
You're so full of crap it's not even funny! I just watched the Larry King show on intelligent design, and man, your ego was so obviously apparent I don't know how you got through the studio doors. Your quick hatred (oh yes, it's very evident in your eyes) to anyone who disagrees with you and instant loyalty with anyone who doesn't is a major turn off, and shows what a phony you really are.

Haha...241 comments... I really tried to read it all, but had to give up somewhere half way :D

Deepak, it's a little embarrassing to have to spell out the obvious in 12 points, isn't it? You're doing a wonderful job, I admire your patience :D... I hope to be able to see the replay. Can't wait to read your next post!

Is it fair to our children that we are allowing Darwins theory to be taught in our classrooms, when we are obviously divided on the issue of where creation comes from? I personally am not divided. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that man comes from God. I ;however, do not think that teachers are in the position or equiped to teach about God and creation, so consiquently, I do not think that Darwins theory should be taught either. It is not fair to teach just one side of the contraversy so niether creation or evolution should be taught in public schools. Children should elect to take these courses as electives not required courses. If they do take this subject as an elective then yes all view points should be discussed. Save it all for "Debate Class"!!!! Let children go to God, church, and science/evolution "elective" class if they choose to. They should go to school to learn how to read, write and learn arithmatic. "the answers are all there in the bible and in your heart" Loreena

I love the philsophical discussion panel shows on Larry King. They are truly unique in mainstream media. Tonight's show demonstrated clearly why we should leave "intelligent design" teachings out of the classroom, at least for now. Each and every one of the panel had a different belief or opinion on the topic. This begs to ask the question "who" will be the ones to decide how these things are presented to young people, when scholars cannot come to a reasonable concensus. My personal beleif is that we have absolutely no clue as to the nature of the universe, whether your chosen explanation is the bible, spiritualism, whatever. We can only continue to study and try not to convince ourselves that one explanation or another is absolute. Bottom line we haven't a clue. Mythology and dogma requires the concept of "faith" (if I recall correctly - faith was a widely used word around the time of Christ that was used in reference to blind obedience to Caesar). Of course there is more than this physical world out there, but to be so arrogant as to think we know the origin, nature, or purpose is a bit humorous. Love you, Deepak. Keep keepin' 'em on their toes!

Carol Floyd- What's your email address? Email me at: tropicalbooking at yahoo dot com

I watched the "Larry King Live" show. The fundamentalists always frustrate me. And I'm not talking only about the gentleman sitting next to Deepak. The woman from Louisiana was just as demeaning and fundamentalist in her views against the view that an intelligence may have played a role in the design of all that is as was the fellow advocating "bible only." Both sides are intolerant. Deepak was fairly reasonalbe, although he was demeaning to the fundamentalist brother seated next to him from time to time. WE need more open-mindedness EVERYWHERE!

Dear Deepak,

I have only seen part of the discussion on CNN but I noticed there were more men than women present to discuss this matter. I believe that the discussion would highly benefit if the partners were divided in equally numbers, male and female cause these are the principles that lead to the Buddha consciousness.
Namaste, Mieke

Deepak, I always enjoy seeing you on TV. I just
got your book, spontaneous fulfillment of desire.
The person who thinks you have a big ego wasnt
paying much attention to the reverend, but it
is ok, laughable though. I am surprised you
could keep a straight face at all with the
reverend sitting next to you. LOL
Anyway, I think this is a very good thing and the
closest together these two factions have ever
come. More civil than past arguments on the
subject of evolution and even if the Christians
do try to fit the theory of Creationism into
the intelligent design theory, it is still good
so that we can discuss this more intelligently.
I am enjoying the debate.
Thanks........Petri J

Hi,

The theory of evolution is science; the idea of ID is philosophical. See my post of August 6th on moderatesrus.blogspot.com for my view here.

Cappy has the best understanding of any post here, in my view. He is the only one that seems to understand the science here. Basically, the posts here are philosophical, because Deepak attracts lots of meditators, deep thinkers, etc.

Tom Haddon, though obviously not a scientist, seems to have a grip on the issue too.

ID is a great philosophical concept. Teach it in the "History of Philosophy" class.

One poster said, "to believe in ID, you must rely on a creator that cannot be studied scientifically." This is correct. ID is not science because you cannot apply the scientific method to it.

My orientation is similar to the position of the late mathemetician Kurt Godel. Godel's Incompleteness theorem logically proves that you cannot make a completely unassailable logical statement, in other words, a "theory of everything" is a logical impossibility. (What he actually showed, using priciples of logic, is that for any logical statement, a statement which contradicts it can be constructed.) However, when questioned during an interview, Mr. Godel declared that he was a mystic philosophically, and that as such, his basic belief was in "Unity".

In other words, one can believe in a unifying God, and in fact, such a God may exist. However, it is a philosophical construct, and, as such, can never be logically proven.

Because of this, ID is philosophy. Maybe ID is correct, I don't know. But even if it is correct, it is still not science, and therefore should not be part of a science curriculum.

Now on to the politics of this discussion:

Kelly is on the money here:
"The bottom line of this "discussion" is:

Who gets to own God? Science? Psychology? Theology? Government? The people? The church? McDonald's fast foods? Toyota? The media? The Americans? The Muslims? The Bhuddists? The Saudi Arabians? Israel? "

The Discovery Institute is a very shifty entity, they keep trying to modify their arguments, in an attempt to get religion back into the classrooms, and eventually back into a place of political control.

And the posters who have pointed out that if ID came from the Hindus or Muslims, it would get no airplay, are exactly right on.

The Christians, like the Muslims, are going to have to take the microphones out of the extremists' hands, and take their religion back.

Both Islam and Christianity have some very beautiful and worthy precepts, and great people too. But they are going to have to clean up after their Bin Ladens and Pat Robertsons to restore the image of their religions. Unfortunately, the Discovery Institute is simply adding further damage to Christianity by trying shady tactics in a political powerplay.

This is a political discussion - which is why it gets emotions running high, which helps viewer ratings, and that in turn is why it gets prime-time TV play.

Finally, Mr. Chopra comes from the tradition of spirituality being explored through meditative techniques, which is sometimes called "science" in India. However, he should be mindful that this is a different interpretation of what a "science" is than the Western view.

Experimentation with meditative techniques still comes in under the "spirituality" category, not the Western Science category.

As my name suggests, I have also spent years exploring meditative techniques, and they led to some profound realizations.

But meditation is not the Western scientific method. Therefore, meditation should not be taught in science class for the same reason ID should not be taught in science class.

Another example of a concept that is beyond science is the concept called "love." One can feel it, even be convinced that love is real. Love may in fact be real. I hope it is, since I myself believe in it. But you cannot scientifically test for it.

Cheers,

Yogi

Sorry for the double-post. I thought I only hit Post once.

I just caught this broadcast by coincidence and good fortune. Delightful! I've attempted to read up a bit on the concept of creative design; the "New Physics." It has left me wishing for a better brain...
There was something very intriging I read a few years ago. A mere blurb of info that may or may not have been discounted in the interium. It short, and from my own blurry recollection, researches believed they had discovered a part of the human brain which appeared to respond specifically to "spiritual or religious" stimulation.. words and images. I know this recollection may only have a tentative tie to this discussion, if any, but I would dearly appreciate learning how i could find out more about the report. Hugs to all not opposed!

D'pak,
Interesting show (just caught it on CNN Europe). Well, seeing these suits argue with you about "to be or not to be" with their usual american arrogance and religious fervor, reaffirmed my choice to leave the US and raise my kids in Europe far far away from hypocrites and lunatics. I'd love to comment on your points but not in public....lol

Keep up the outstanding Aura,

OS

D'pak,
Interesting show (just caught it on CNN Europe). Well, seeing these suits argue with you about "to be or not to be" with their usual american arrogance and religious fervor, reaffirmed my choice to leave the US and raise my kids in Europe far far away from hypocrites and lunatics. I'd love to comment on your points but not in public....lol

Keep up the outstanding Aura,

OS

Deepak Chopra's post debunked!

If one considers the definition of the word intelligent; guided or directed by intellect, rational, guided or controlled by a computer.

Is intelligence behind the world and Universe as we know it?

This question is one of the ages oldest and most enduring inquiries, is there an intelligence behind all and did God create man/woman?

Can an actual Intelligence behind all creation be proven?

If we contemplate the fact that nothing exists without there first having been a THOUGHT behind it, in other words a THOUGHT is a first cause which follows a doing something and then onto a finished product.

Nothing exists around us that wasn’t first a thought in someone’s mind. The very chair you're sitting on was first a THOUGHT in some designer’s mind, before it became a manifested product.

When one reads the ancient Hermetic philosophy, is says that there is a correspondence from the lower planes of life to the highest (G-D). The Kybalion then says "So above, so below"

It means that one can observe what goes on in this world, and apply it universally to all planes of life.

Consider that the Bible says, it is done in heaven as it is done on earth.

If we use the understanding that something cannot come from nothing, and that something can only come from something else, and that THOUGHT has to be a first cause, then we can see how we may arrive at a REASONED answer concerning Intelligent Design.

Consider that ELECTRICITY is not made, electricity is stepped up from a lower voltage to a higher voltage. In modern power plants the generators have permanent magnets mounted on the shaft of the generator, as the generator turns inside the stator it creates an electrical field,

this small voltage is used as EXCITATION voltage, to be sent to the main field windings and then stepped up or down, either by increasing or decreasing the excitation voltage which is created by permanent magnets.

The magnets were created by applying strong electrical currents to a specific type of metal. Electricity and magnetism coexist simultaneously in nature and man made products. Magnetism exists in nature as well as protons, electrons etc.

The point in showing this, is that everything we as humans seemingly make or manufacture for our use, is already available in the form of RAW materials, we then take these raw materials and transform them into things we desire it to be.

Again, nothing, not one brick, lever or wheel existed before it was first a THOUGHT in someone’s mind.

If we apply this analogy to the idea of Universal Intelligence, can we arrive at a REASONED answer. that in order for the Universe to exist with all of the galaxies, nebulas, stars, life etc. that there had to be a first cause, a THOUGHT by something or someone, before it could exist. A prime mover.

Did this thought (prime mover) create the big bang and put everything into existence? Who knows.

But from the above statement, I think it's reasonable to concur that there is an intelligent force, call it, the great TAO, G-D, providence or Universal mind, orgone energy, chi or ki that is behind all and that is in all existence. Call it what you will.

When you work in the yard with a shovel all day, you will develop calluses, how did they develop? was there a built in INTELLIGENCE that told the cells of the skin to thicken and protect that area, just like the calloused ends of us guitar player’s fingers

What causes the Chameleon and Octopus to change colors with its environment? And other creatures that have EVOLVED to look like sticks and tree branches in order to protect themselves and survive. Is this merely nature, or is it Intelligence?

Or is it Intelligent Nature?

When one considers President Bush has just announced his feelings that "Intelligent Design" should be taught in public schools. This is to appease his religious followers. Unfortunately they all have made a serious error.

Intelligent Design is already being taught in all public schools. It is called evolution.

God chose evolution as his creative technique so that each species would be able to adapt to challenges, catastrophes, weather changes etc. over long periods of time in order to survive. If evolution does exist and it appears that it does, then it's obvious to me, that it is an act of nature/G-d that caused it.

Evolution , a very intelligent design.

Can any group of people, whether it is scientists or theologians ever prove the existence of evolution or ID?

Consider that when a person has seen a UFO and then they proceed to tell you about it, even though the person who is trying to convey to you that UFO's are real because they saw one, it doesn't prove their existence and positive actually to you.

If you saw one yourself, and if you believe that what you saw was something not from this planet earth, then you have EXPERIENCED it, then it is indelibly stamped in your heart and mind.

You didn't have to believe anyone else, you didn't have to take someone else’s word for it, because you PERSONALLY witnessed and EXPERIENCED it.

Consider the fact that if Universal Intelligence or design is a fact, we may never know, because man's mind is finite and cannot by it's very nature contemplate nor understand something that is infinite, not by mere intellect alone.

it's like the UFO problem, someone tries to convince you that they exist, even though you may believe it, you haven’t actually EXPERIENCED it, and so it may not be real to you.

Consider that if a supreme intelligence exists, and that this intelligence cannot be conveyed to you through words, but must be EXPERIENCED before one can know it, then all the talk in the world will be just wasted words.

But if one can EXPERIENCE this infinite Intelligence, then one can KNOW it, and no body of scientists are needed, no theologians are needed, because you have EXPERIENCED this for yourself and it is now stamped in your brain and in your heart.

Maybe this supreme Intelligence meant for itself only to be KNOWN, and not something to be believed in. But must be EXPERIENCED.

Does it really matter if man/woman and all of the animals, came into full blown being as direct result of a thought or word from some super intelligence, or that you are here and that’s that?

I think some things are only meant to be known through EXPERIENCE, and no amount of intellectual study will bring about the answer.

Should Intelligent design in public schools? NO! Unless that is, that the government is advocating teaching Greek mythology in American public schools.

Do THEY know that the Bible and creation story are myths? Of course not.

Then why shouldn’t it be taught? Because who has the brains to teach an ancient MYTHOLIGAL document called the Bible correctly. Who is among those classes of teachers who are qualified to do it?

I have spent many years studying the Bible, ancient myths and metaphysics to come to some realizations about the Bible and it’s hidden meanings, and I could not stand in some classroom and tell a single person that God created man/woman. To do so, I would be brainwashing and corrupting young minds.

The creation story in the Bible is a Myth with a much deeper meaning, and is not to be read literally, how do I know? Because the Bible tells me so. “Don’t be a minister of the LETTER” (Literal). It's a sstory about raising the solar energy in you through the SEVEN chakras.

And behold he had a book (you in his right hand (right brain) sealed with seven seals on the backside. This is the SEVEN chakras on your spine, your backside.

Consider the following verse.

And the Earth was without form and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the Deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the Waters.

And God said, 'Let there be Light.' ...
... And God divided the Light from the Dark.

-Genesis: 1:2-4 of the Bible

Can anyone honestly say this is a LITERAL statement, when the Bible itself says not to read it literally.

When one enters into meditation and clears the mind of all thoughts, one creates a “void” in this “darkness” called the deep or virgin mind, one who is in active meditation.

And the “spirit” this electrical life force (photon) has entered the brain during meditation and one has experienced the Light (God). And the darkness is divided from the LIGHT, all WITHININ you!

The Adam and Eve story is also a symbolic mythological story, so how can this be taught as a confirmed fact?

It can’t

Danny

If we choose the path of accepting the fact that there is an intelligence behind the creation of the universe, the stars and planets, we still cannot prove that a God or that this supreme intelligence actually created life forms including man/woman, because the Bible is mythology, so then how can one be sure?

Electrons, protons and other smaller particles and then eventually atoms came together and formed molecules,

amino chains and proteins etc., and eventually these things became some type of living thing or first germ, eventually even a human. Could it then be said that god created Humans and animals?

Who or what was the prime moving force that created this bang, if it in fact ever happened?

If on a smaller scale lets say you were in the garage with your acme chemistry set (when you were a kid)

and you were fooling around and mixing various chemicals together and inadvertently you created something new from this soup mix of chemicals you were fooling around with, would it mean that you created it?

I guess my point is this, if there was an intelligence behind the big bang, and this intelligence created, by it's thought action everything we see in the night sky including the earth we live on, and out of this bang came all of these small particles that eventually evolved into life forms, on their own by way of evolution, then did GOD or this supreme intelligence create this life that came forth from this primordial soup mix?

When one considers President Bush has just announced his feelings that "Intelligent Design" should be taught in public schools. This is to appease his religious followers. Unfortunately they all have made a serious error.

Intelligent Design is already being taught in all public schools. It is called evolution.

God chose evolution as his creative technique so that each species would be able to adapt to challenges, catastrophes, weather changes etc. over long periods of time in order to survive. If evolution does exist and it appears that it does, then it's obvious to me, that it is an act of nature/G-d that caused it.

Evolution , a very intelligent design.

we can't deal with this as an open topic of discussion, no one can because it makes no sense.

If one is to ever find out, it will have to come through self knowing, through reading, learning, understanding, contemplation and meditation. (Gnosticism)

Other wise it can't be known as a positive actuality, and then who is to say that this enigma can ever be known by humans with finite minds.

"All knowledge ultimately means SELF knowledge"
-Jun Fan(Bruce) Lee

But

If one says that there is no proof of an Intelligence, then consider the following.

IN THE BEGINNING

It matters not whether you believe that mankind dates back to the primitive Ape man 500,000 years ago, or sprang fully-grown from the mind of the Creator. In either event, there had to be a first cause-a Creator. Some power had to bring to this earth the first germ of life, and the creation is no less wonderful

if it started with the lowliest form of plant life and worked up through countless ages into the highest product of today's civilization, then if the whole were created in six days.

In the beginning, this earth was just a fire mist-six thousand or a billion tears ago-what does it matter which?

One thing that does matter is that some time, some way, there came to this planet the GERM of life-the Vital Force which animates all Nature-plant, animal, man.

If we accept the scientist's version of it, the first form in which life appeared upon earth was the humble Algae, a jelly like mass which floated upon the waters. This according to the scientists, was the beginning, the dawn of life upon the earth.

Next came the first bit of animal life, the lowly Amoeba, a sort of jelly fish, consisting of a single cell, without vertebra, and with very little else to distinguish it from the water round about.

But it had LIFE, the first bit of animal life, and sufficient Intelligence and Resource to find the means of sustaining itself, and to PROGRESS, from that life, according to the scientists, we can trace everything we have and are today.

All the millions of forms and shapes and varieties of plants and animals that have appeared are but different manifestations of life-formed to meet the differing conditions.

For millions of years this "life germ" was threatened by every kind of danger, from floods, earthquakes, from droughts, from desert heat, from glacial cold, from volcanic eruptions, but to it each new danger was merely an incentive to finding a new resource, to putting forth Life in some new shape.

To meet one set of needs, it formed the Dinosaur, to meet another, the Butterfly. Long before it worked up to man, we see its unlimited resources shown in a thousand ways.

To escape danger in the water, it sought land. Pursued on land, it took to the air.

To breathe in the sea, it developed gills. Stranded on land, it perfected lungs. To meet one kind of danger it grew a shell. For another, a sting. Tom protect itself from glacial cold, it grew fur.

In temperature climes, hair. Subject to alternate heat and cold, it produced feathers. But ever, from the beginning condition, to answer every Creatures NEEDS.

Had it been possible to KILL the "Life Germ" it would have perished ages ago, when fire and flood, drought and famine followed each other in quick succession. But obstacles, misfortunes, cataclysms, were to it merely new opportunities assert its power. I

n fact, it required OBSTACLES to awaken it, to show its energy and resource. The great reptiles, the monster beasts of antiquity, passed on. But the "Life principle" stayed, changing as each age changed, always developing always improving.

Whatever power it was that brought this "Life germ" to the earth, IT CAME ENDOWED with UNLIMITED resources, unlimited energy and unlimited LIFE. No other FORCE can defeat it. No obstacle can hold it back.

All through the history of life and mankind you can see its directing Intelligence, call it Nature, call it Providence, Call it Universal mind or Tao, call it what you will-rising to meet every need of life.

No one can follow it down through the ages without realizing that the whole purpose of existence is Growth (_expression). Life is dynamic, not static.
It is ever moving forward-not standing still. The one unpardonable sin of nature is to STAND STILL, to stagnate.

The Gigantsaurus was well over a hundred feet long and as big as a house, the Tyrannosaurus had the strength of a locomotive and was the last word in frightfulness;

The Pterodactyl or Flying Dragon-all the giant monsters of Prehistoric Ages are gone. The had ceased to serve a useful purpose. They did not know how to meet the changing conditions. They stood still-stagnated, while the life around them passed them by.

This Vital Force is so strong in the lowest forms of animal life it can develop a shell or poison to meet a need; if it can teach the bird to circle and dart, to balance and fly; it can grow a new limb on a spider to replace a lost one, how much more can it do for YOU

a reasoning, rational being, with a mind able to work with this "Life Principle", with an energy an initiative to urge it on!

The evidence is ALL ABOU YOU. Take up some violent form of exercise-rowing, tennis, swimming, riding.

In the beginning your muscles are weak easily tired. But keep on for a few days. The Vital Force flows into them more strongly, strengthens them, toughens them, to meet their NEW need.

Do rough manual labor-and see what happens? The skin on your hands become tender, blisters, hurts. Keep it up, and does the skin all wear off? On the contrary, the Vital Force provides extra thickness, extra toughness called calluses, to meet our need.

All through your daily life you will find this "Life Force" steadily at work. Embrace it, work with it, take it to yourself, and there is nothing you cannot do.

The mere fact that there are obstacles to overcome is in your favor, for when there is nothing to be done, when things run along smoothly, this "Life Force" slumbers and dies down. It is when you need it, when you call upon it urgently, when you seem to have used up every bit of Vital Force in you, that it is most on the job.

Just like Lee flier said above, can the cell comprehend that it's riding on top of or inside of you. It may be conscious of the fact that your body is sustaining it with all the necessary nutrients, vitamins, water, electricity etc.

But does that mean it should bother itself with whether or not you exist, it exists and is performing a function, it is supplied with all the necessary raw materials and it moves forward, never having the need to worship the thing or things that are supplying it with all the raw materials in the form of nutrients, water etc.

It simply uses them, and perform its function as part of the whole. This cell never needs to worship this big chemicals factory that is supplying its needs, it never needs to believe in it this giant chemical factory, it merely expresses its nature.

As humans why can't we just do as the cell does? Just express the Life, live it, realize you oneness with it, at the same time understand that the Universe with all its secrets can never be fully known and understood, for to know everything, one would turn into a puff of smoke and evaporate.

The Universe is so designed that you can never uncover all of its secrets, for to do so, would destroy all of life, because the growth of the mind would cease, then the body would cease to function and we would die.

Only by being infinite can it never be fully known, there must always be some new secret lurking around the corner, a something we don’t understand or we would get bored and stagnate, then die.

Everyone argues, is there an Intelligence behind all, I would like to remind you of the above statements.

Consider also that all that supports you is seen in the night sky, and these things are manifest in you, for instance without the sun and in its exact location,

life dies, without the moon, life dies due to stagnation of then seas. Without the stars life dies, because it is ultimately star dust that is our make up, because all of the chemicals for the soup came from these stars, says science.

(we come from the stars). What of the electromagnetic energy without which no life can exist, what about the dark matter, which science says is some kind of binding force that holds and creates new matter.

Is this what the early pagans recognized? Did they actually worship the sun, the moon and the stars?

I think they simply recognized that there was something greater than them, sustaining their life, that there was something greater than them by observing the night sky,

they developed ceremonies and festivals to give thanks to nature, they celebrated the return of the sun (Jesus) in spring for obvious reasons, the held moon festivals, rain festivals,

every year in Thailand the people go down to the sea and thank it for giving them life, they float little boats with fruits and candles on them out to sea.

Does some Omnipotent life force, really know if one life form, call it human is actually worshipping it, does it really care? I think not, all is but A COG IN A GIANT UNIVERSAL WHEEL OF EXPRESSION.

To live, to express, to evolve, to adapt, to learn, to strive forward is to be at one ment, with this great Universal life Force. No church is needed, for God doesn't dwell in churches, for in him you live, move and have your being.

It doesn't need your tears, it can't hear your prayers, it only provides, it only becomes personal when you personalize it.

It manifests in you when you allow it to flow through you, then you can be said to be in gods church, because you have now become the conduit for its vital force.

If a cell inside your brain looks up and sees this awesome light show going on, as your brains electrical circuits are arcing, do you think its any less awesome for us when we look up in the night sky and marvel at the Universe and the stars above us?

As the cell doesn't need to worship or believe, neither do you! Both exist as an expression of Life.

Religion has convinced you that you’re a sinner, and that you need them to be saved.

Jesus said you are the light of the world and “ye are as Gods” walking around in the flesh.

Who do you want to believe, religion or Jesus?

eIf we choose the path of accepting the fact that there is an intelligence behind the creation of the universe, the stars and planets, we still cannot prove that a God or that this supreme intelligence actually created life forms including man/woman, because the Bible is mythology, so then how can one be sure?

Electrons, protons and other smaller particles and then eventually atoms came together and formed molecules, amino chains and proteins etc., and eventually these things became some type of living thing or first germ, eventually even a human. Could it then be said that god created Humans and animals?

Who or what was the prime moving force that created this bang, if it in fact ever happened?

If on a smaller scale lets say you were in the garage with your acme chemistry set (when you were a kid) , and you were fooling around and mixing various chemicals together and inadvertently you created something new from this soup mix of chemicals you were fooling around with, would it mean that you created it?

I guess my point is this, if there was an intelligence behind the big bang, and this intelligence created, by it's thought action everything we see in the night sky including the earth we live on, and out of this bang came all of these small particles that eventually evolved into life forms, on their own by way of evolution, then did GOD or this supreme intelligence create this life that came forth from this primordial soup mix?

When one considers President Bush has just announced his feelings that "Intelligent Design" should be taught in public schools. This is to appease his religious followers. Unfortunately they all have made a serious error.

Intelligent Design is already being taught in all public schools. It is called evolution.

God chose evolution as his creative technique so that each species would be able to adapt to challenges, catastrophes, weather changes etc. over long periods of time in order to survive. If evolution does exist and it appears that it does, then it's obvious to me, that it is an act of nature/G-d that caused it.

Evolution , a very intelligent design.

we can't deal with this as an open topic of discussion, no one can because it makes no sense.

If one is to ever find out, it will have to come through self knowing, through reading, learning, understanding, contemplation and meditation. (Gnosticism)

Other wise it can't be known as a positive actuality, and then who is to say that this enigma can ever be known by humans with finite minds.

"All knowledge ultimately means SELF knowledge"
-Jun Fan(Bruce) Lee

But

If one says that there is no proof of an Intelligence, then consider the following.

IN THE BEGINNING

It matters not whether you believe that mankind dates back to the primitive Ape man 500,000 years ago, or sprang fully-grown from the mind of the Creator. In either event, there had to be a first cause-a Creator. Some power had to bring to this earth the first germ of life, and the creation is no less wonderful if it started with the lowliest form of plant life and worked up through countless ages into the highest product of today's civilization, then if the whole were created in six days.

In the beginning, this earth was just a fire mist-six thousand or a billion tears ago-what does it matter which?

One thing that does matter is that some time, some way, there came to this planet the GERM of life-the Vital Force which animates all Nature-plant, animal, man. If we accept the scientist's version of it, the first form in which life appeared upon earth was the humble Algae, a jelly like mass which floated upon the waters. This according to the scientists, was the beginning, the dawn of life upon the earth.

Next came the first bit of animal life, the lowly Amoeba, a sort of jelly fish, consisting of a single cell, without vertebra, and with very little else to distinguish it from the water round about. But it had LIFE, the first bit of animal life, and sufficient Intelligence and Resource to find the means of sustaining itself, and to PROGRESS, from that life, according to the scientists, we can trace everything we have and are today.

All the millions of forms and shapes and varieties of plants and animals that have appeared are but different manifestations of life-formed to meet the differing conditions. For millions of years this "life germ" was threatened by every kind of danger, from floods, earthquakes, from droughts, from desert heat, from glacial cold, from volcanic eruptions, but to it each new danger was merely an incentive to finding a new resource, to putting forth Life in some new shape.

To meet one set of needs, it formed the Dinosaur, to meet another, the Butterfly. Long before it worked up to man, we see its unlimited resources shown in a thousand ways. To escape danger in the water, it sought land. Pursued on land, it took to the air.

To breathe in the sea, it developed gills. Stranded on land, it perfected lungs. To meet one kind of danger it grew a shell. For another, a sting. Tom protect itself from glacial cold, it grew fur. In temperature climes, hair. Subject to alternate heat and cold, it produced feathers. But ever, from the beginning condition, to answer every Creatures NEEDS.

Had it been possible to KILL the "Life Germ" it would have perished ages ago, when fire and flood, drought and famine followed each other in quick succession. But obstacles, misfortunes, cataclysms, were to it merely new opportunities assert its power. In fact, it required OBSTACLES to awaken it, to show its energy and resource. The great reptiles, the monster beasts of antiquity, passed on. But the "Life principle" stayed, changing as each age changed, always developing always improving.

Whatever power it was that brought this "Life germ" to the earth, IT CAME ENDOWED with UNLIMITED resources, unlimited energy and unlimited LIFE. No other FORCE can defeat it. No obstacle can hold it back. All through the history of life and mankind you can see its directing Intelligence, call it Nature, call it Providence, Call it Universal mind or Tao, call it what you will-rising to meet every need of life.

No one can follow it down through the ages without realizing that the whole purpose of existence is Growth (_expression). Life is dynamic, not static. It is ever moving forward-not standing still. The one unpardonable sin of nature is to STAND STILL, to stagnate.

The Gigantsaurus was well over a hundred feet long and as big as a house, the Tyrannosaurus had the strength of a locomotive and was the last word in frightfulness; The Pterodactyl or Flying Dragon-all the giant monsters of Prehistoric Ages are gone. The had ceased to serve a useful purpose. They did not know how to meet the changing conditions. They stood still-stagnated, while the life around them passed them by.

This Vital Force is so strong in the lowest forms of animal life it can develop a shell or poison to meet a need; if it can teach the bird to circle and dart, to balance and fly; it can grow a new limb on a spider to replace a lost one, how much more can it do for YOU-a reasoning, rational being, with a mind able to work with this "Life Principle", with an energy an initiative to urge it on!

The evidence is ALL ABOU YOU. Take up some violent form of exercise-rowing, tennis, swimming, riding. In the beginning your muscles are weak easily tired. But keep on for a few days. The Vital Force flows into them more strongly, strengthens them, toughens them, to meet their NEW need.

Do rough manual labor-and see what happens? The skin on your hands become tender, blisters, hurts. Keep it up, and does the skin all wear off? On the contrary, the Vital Force provides extra thickness, extra toughness called calluses, to meet our need.

All through your daily life you will find this "Life Force" steadily at work. Embrace it, work with it, take it to yourself, and there is nothing you cannot do. The mere fact that there are obstacles to overcome is in your favor, for when there is nothing to be done, when things run along smoothly, this "Life Force" slumbers and dies down. It is when you need it, when you call upon it urgently, when you seem to have used up every bit of Vital Force in you, that it is most on the job.

Just like Lee flier said above, can the cell comprehend that it's riding on top of or inside of you. It may be conscious of the fact that your body is sustaining it with all the necessary nutrients, vitamins, water, electricity etc. But does that mean it should bother itself with whether or not you exist, it exists and is performing a function, it is supplied with all the necessary raw materials and it moves forward, never having the need to worship the thing or things that are supplying it with all the raw materials in the form of nutrients, water etc.

It simply uses them, and perform its function as part of the whole. This cell never needs to worship this big chemicals factory that is supplying its needs, it never needs to believe in it this giant chemical factory, it merely expresses its nature.

As humans why can't we just do as the cell does? Just express the Life, live it, realize you oneness with it, at the same time understand that the Universe with all its secrets can never be fully known and understood, for to know everything, one would turn into a puff of smoke and evaporate.

The Universe is so designed that you can never uncover all of its secrets, for to do so, would destroy all of life, because the growth of the mind would cease, then the body would cease to function and we would die.

Only by being infinite can it never be fully known, there must always be some new secret lurking around the corner, a something we don’t understand or we would get bored and stagnate, then die.

Everyone argues, is there an Intelligence behind all, I would like to remind you of the above statements.

Consider also that all that supports you is seen in the night sky, and these things are manifest in you, for instance without the sun and in its exact location, life dies, without the moon, life dies due to stagnation of then seas. Without the stars life dies, because it is ultimately star dust that is our make up, because all of the chemicals for the soup came from these stars, says science. (we come from the stars). What of the electromagnetic energy without which no life can exist, what about the dark matter, which science says is some kind of binding force that holds and creates new matter.

Is this what the early pagans recognized? Did they actually worship the sun, the moon and the stars?

I think they simply recognized that there was something greater than them, sustaining their life, that there was something greater than them by observing the night sky, they developed ceremonies and festivals to give thanks to nature, they celebrated the return of the sun (Jesus) in spring for obvious reasons, the held moon festivals, rain festivals, every year in Thailand the people go down to the sea and thank it for giving them life, they float little boats with fruits and candles on them out to sea.

Does some Omnipotent life force, really know if one life form, call it human is actually worshipping it, does it really care? I think not, all is but A COG IN A GIANT UNIVERSAL WHEEL OF _EXPRESSION.

To live, to express, to evolve, to adapt, to learn, to strive forward is to be at one ment, with this great Universal life Force. No church is needed, for God doesn't dwell in churches, for in him you live, move and have your being.

It doesn't need your tears, it can't hear your prayers, it only provides, it only becomes personal when you personalize it. It manifests in you when you allow it to flow through you, then you can be said to be in gods church, because you have now become the conduit for its vital force.

If a cell inside your brain looks up and sees this awesome light show going on, as your brains electrical circuits are arcing, do you think its any less awesome for us when we look up in the night sky and marvel at the Universe and the stars above us? As the cell doesn't need to worship or believe, neither do you! Both exist as an _expression of Life.

Religion has convinced you that you’re a sinner, and that you need them to be saved.

Jesus said you are the light of the world and “ye are as Gods” walking around in the flesh.

Who do you want to believe, religion or Jesus?

Why you cant't use the bible a dicussion about the beginning of the Universe or all things.

Because he bible is ancient MYTHOLOGY, describing MAN'S soul evolution, the soul going to a higher place, all WITHIN you.

THE BIBLE AS SYMBOL

Our first order of business in this quest is to see if we can justify considering the Bible as symbolic rather then literal. We must use the Bible itself.

1.2Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. So here is the Bible itself telling us not to take it literally.

2. Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: the definition of a myth includes the term allegory. Here again the Bible tells us it is symbolic.

3. Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: The Bible is saying that all of Jesus statements were symbolic.

4. Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

5. Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Here the Bible states that GOD speaks in parables . And what are dark sayings of old. Obviously they are symbolic statements.

6. In the Book of Proverbs describes wisdom. It explains how one becomes wise. Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. Dark sayings is mytholoy

7. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 2 cor.4:3

8. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 2 cor. 3:14

9. We should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6)

10. Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak in parables? EZ:20 Here God speaks in parables

11. 1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Here it says god ordained the hidden wisdom, even before the world

12. Eze. 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel. God orders riddles

13. Jdg.14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle.

And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house. Here it says god was pleased when they cracked the riddle, and rewarded them.

14. Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of GOD to conceal a thing: but honor of kings is to search out a matter. And here its Gods honor to conceal things, and make you figure it out.

15. 2Cor.4:3,4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

16. Isaiah 9,10 And he said, Go and tell this people, hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes

17. Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.

18. JOB 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

19. MAT 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

20. psalm 89 might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

21. Proverbs 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

22. 1 cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

23. IS. 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

24. Eziekel 3:5 For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel;

25. exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

26. exodus 4:12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

27. "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Jesus Christ - The Holy Bible: Matthew 22:29)

28. Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Here God is saying that his word is like milk to you, as a babe must drink milk before it can eat solid food. God is saying his word is for the the one who is ready for meat, in other words, when one is ready for the deeper meaning, this is the meat, for the one full of age (wisdom). Reading Gods word literally is MILK, it is for the unskillful, and they will not understand.

Here the fact that this is all consciousness is made clear. It says to know the mystery of the Kingdom of God. Where is the Kingdom of God ? . (Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.)

The statement concludes by saying that "unto them that are without". Outside of the meditative state. Outside of the inner realm of consciousness where exists the Kingdom of God..

Here we see that God speaks in mysteries, riddles and parables, He puts riddles in peoples mouths, he shuts their eyes and ears, he sends strange and hard speeches,

e sends dark sayings, and that is Gods glory that he conceal a thing, he imparts secret wisdom and make you and I search it. His word is as milk to the unskillful, without age (reason).

Theres no doubt that the bible is showing you that, you can't read it at face value, you have to look for the deeper meaning, the secret widom, the dark sayings, the hidden and so forth.

The problem with christianity as a whole, including all the pastors and tv evangelist pay no attention to these verses and read and teach the bible literally, which is an abomination unto god.

His word is mysterous and wants you to search it out, the truth is not given to the vain, to the once a week jesus mercenary.

There's no doubt is there, about what is being said here, the Bible was written in a certain metaphorical, symbolic language of old, which is mythology.

Jesus told Peter to go get the tax money from the mouth of a fish! Mt17:27

"puts his money where his mouth is" demonstrates that he's put his trust in God ahead of his savings account, or insurance policy, or retirement plan. Have all three; but keep God first!

Without figures of speech we might be 'bored out of our gourd', because they furnish humor and excitement and variety to our conversation; i.e., our way-of-life.

A critical or haughty listener may regard them as crude, or trite, or ignorant, or superfluous; when it may really be a deliberate and legitimate form of getting attention.

The Bible veritably hollers (yells!) at us to hear what God is saying! Forty (or thereabouts) different authors are ascribed: probably because we'd wrongly conclude it was the mythical masterpiece of some inspired genius like Aesop or Aristotle or Plato, if it were all written in the same style.

The fact that the Bible was written in an allegorical, symbolic form, gives us more reverence for the wisdom of God.

Instead of dropping some dry, boring instruction manual on top of your head, he gave us a book, we have rack our brains to understand, rightly so, because any knowledge worth having is usually earned by knuckling down, burning the midnight oil, until the cows home.

I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, at least those that think there wise, but it will be given to who?

The babes, babes are without EGOs, and easy to teach, once you grow older the Ego has set in, and you think you are wise and prudent, but we are fools, for not undersatnding the nature of God.

"Let us go down and confound their language" said God in Genesis 11:7. Here are some figures of speech found in the good book

1. Horse of a different color. Rev/Zech 6 2. By the skin of your teeth. Job19:20 3. A drop in the bucket. Isa40:15 4. Feet of clay.. Dan 2 5. Etched in stone. Ex31:18 6. Life begins at 40. (Matthew is book #40) 7.

Suffer fools gladly.. 2Cor 11:19 8. Sour grapes... Ezek 18:2 9. Caught "red-handed" Mt24:27 10. Still water runs deep.. Ps23:2 11. Without a leg to stand on.. John 19:33 12. If the shoe fits... Eph 6:15 13. Fox in the henhouse.. Lk 13:32 14. Money where your mouth is... Mt 17:27 15.

Get your feet wet.. Josh 3:5 16. Train of thought.. Isa 6:1 17. Raising the roof.. Mk 2:4 18. Beating about the bush.. Ex 3:3 19. Logic that "holds water".. Ps 22:14 20. Seeing "eye to eye" Isa 52:8 21. Bone of contention.. Ex 12:46 22. Pain in the neck.. 2Cor 12:7 23. Fat's in the fire! Ex 29:13 24. Burning your bridges..

1K19:21 25. Made the cut... Rom 2:29 26. Tough row to hoe.. Acts 9:5 27. Fly in the ointment.. Ecc 10:1 28. Made a "scapegoat" Lev 16:10 29. Mountains from molehills.. Mat 21:21 30. Stewing in own juices.. Deut 14:21 31. Handwriting on the wall.. Dan 5:5 32. Swallow a camel, gag at gnat! Mt23:24

To "bury the hatchet", or "chew the rag", or "hit the road",or "push the envelope", or "kick the bucket", or "go on the wagon", or "burn your bridges", or "bite the dust", or "carry your cross", or "drag your feet", or "dig in your heels", are figures-of-speech not meant to be taken literally; but semantically.

The Apostle Paul was really shipwrecked, 2Cor11:25, but he also used the term figuratively to describe those folks who "concerning faith have made shipwreck", 1Tim1:19.

Figures of Speech and word-play are a primary source of humor. When a simile from the Bible tells us "A merry heart does good like a medicine", Pr17:22

The Apostle Paul used a figure-of-speech when he quoted from Prov25:21 and told the Romans (12:20) to feed their enemies and give them to drink "for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on their heads!"

It sounds harsh and hurtful in the natural and literal, but the figure only means that your kindness will make them ashamed of themselves for the way they've treated you

When the figure says something that hides the real meaning, it's like a cross between an ambiguity and an allegory. Like speaking in code, or wearing a disguise. Its a veil that one must remove to get a glimpse of the godess ISIS.

this is the hidden meaning "their minds are blinded"it is as if a veil covers the Old Testament when they read (1 Corinthians 3:13-16). When Jesus disciples failed to see that hidden meaning in the Old Testament, He called them "fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (Luke 24:25).

Of those Paul wrote that the whole Old Testament tells of Christ, but with those who do not see who were not ready to understand the hidden meanings in His parables, Jesus said, "This people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed."

(Matthew 13:15) But when His disciples were ready to understand the deeper meaning, Jesus said, "Blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." (Matthew 13:16)

ITS ALL A MYTH

And Nietzche said all myths are truths

Joseph Campbell says all myths

are tribal and scientific truths.

So the Bible is made up of mythological stories

but they have real value to you and I

The Bible is a science book, an astronomy book

an anatomy book, and a psychology book.

Religion has no idea of the hidden truths in the Bible

as they go around reading and teaching the stories

in their literal sence, which is DEAD letter for the masses

which acts as a control book for the masses.

Luke 14:26 Luke 14 Luke 14:25-27

see my expose on the nimber SEVEN for an absolute truth on An intelligence in the Universe.

Danny

Deepak,
Clearly there are unanswered and unanswerable questions about both intelligent design and evolution as explanations for what life is , where it came from as well as where its going.
Some might argue that both faith and science are limited and therefore cannot answer the unanswerable.
So what does that leave us? How can we debate these issues when the faithful cannot apply logic in spiritual things and the scientist is stuck with his missing link,,and his incomplete fossil records?How indeed does evolution know when to stop?Why do the many species of monkeys still persist in their original form and of course there is the good old algae still as it was from 'day one.'

From the perspective of someone who comes from the so called "underdeveloped world" and as a student of world history for many years I will opt for more studies,funds and debate on the poor,disease, greed and the desire to dominate of some nation states, reduction of illiteracy, the deprived and depraved amongst us, the sick and the hungry amongst us.For me debates should be raging on all fronts on these issues.

This is not to discredit the value of the evolution /intelligent design debate or for that matter the "quantum leap" its resolution will lead to in science and by the same token the quantum shake among the faithful. Most of us thinking humans can fully appreciate the importance of say DNA studies in the human "survival" scheme of things.

Let the debate rage on the current human condition let us not be distracted by the unanswerable.

Eldora

The nature of your questions expose a certain naivety of this field which I leave to more qualified people to argue. My skepticism was generated by your poor description of the Anthropic principle which you assert "tries to understand how a random universe could evolve to produce DNA...". Not so.

The Anthropic principle is a 'last resort' argument of science, to be applied only when all else fails. The term is rooted in Cosmology and applied to the question of how the observed laws of physics (constants, forces...) are finely tuned to generate stars, heavy elements, molecules, and possibly life. This 'fine tuning' appears to be highly improbable.

The 'strong' form of the Anthropic principle says that the laws of physics must be this way, otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it all.

The 'weak' form suggests that there might be a large number of universes (concurrent or sequential), and sooner or later, ours was bound to occur.

The reason that scientists resist the application of the Anthropic principle is because it 'cuts off debate'. A 10th century scientist could have argued that the sun rises each morning because to do otherwise would have prevented human life.

If we survive the next millenium, we may encounter a limitation inherent in mathematics that states that there are truths about any system that cannot be proven within the system (Goedel's Theorem). At reaching this point, we may implicitly apply the Anthropic principle, but given the rapid advances in Cosmology, we're nowhere close to doing that.

A blog with good intentions---but too many people misunderstand "simple" things. Of course it's not that "simple" if you never thought along those lines before! ;)

Point 1: Probability 101
You intend to flip a coin. What is the chance that you will get heads? 50%. Tails? Also 50%. You flip the coin and you get heads. What is the chance you got heads? 100%. What is the chance you got tails? 0%. All the arguments along the lines of "the chance of us getting here AT RANDOM is so small that an intelligent being MUST be repsonsible" is garbage. No human knows (or will ever know) what the chance was---the system was (and still is) far too complex. The only thing we know is that we are here---the chance is 100%.

Point 2: Existence of Repeated Patterns
Surely there are events in this universe which are best described as "random", but the fundamental processes of this universe are hardly random. We see so many patterns repeated in nature because all things are subject to the same universal, fundamental processes.

Is meditation in the BIBLE?

Woe unto scribes and pharisees (lawyers)"You have taken away the key of knowledge.

You entered not in yourselves and them that were entering in you hindered."

In other words religion has taken away the key

because they dont teach you

to
meditate

Psalms18:11 He made darkness his secret place; Matthew6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

"This means within you, it means meditation"

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light even very dark, and no brightness in it This is MEDITATION

And we have developed convincing evidence that the Pineal Gland which Jacob noted when he saw God face to face, opens and is active in the dark.

In Genesis 32:30 Jacob sees God face to face and calls the place Peniel. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you that God is light.

So if God is light, and the Pineal Gland is the brains light receptor, then it is reasonable to consider that the Pineal Gland is your bodies God receptor.

Rene Descartes said, The souls contact with the body is in the pineal gland

So if the only way one can communicate with the supreme light is via spirit, and spirit is inner light that is activated via the Pineal Gland, then we have suddenly opened the secret that the worlds religions have totally missed.

"Now thats the whole kit and kabootle"

CHRISTIAN BELIEF IF YOU MEDITATE ABOVE THE THOUGHTS OF THE MIND YOU CAN OPEN YOURSELF TO DEMONS , IS THIS TRUE ?

Unfortunately this is a very misguided opinion that comes from many people in the fundamentalist movement. But the position that they put forth concerning opening ones mind to demons goes directly against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

What are we doing when we enter into meditation . We are seeking direction from the universal God.

That which flows from the higher consciousness above the thoughts of the carnal mind. If we are thus asking direction from "God ", who is within us, does it add up that we could possibly receive demons or devils instead.

In Matthew 7:10 Jesus says, " If you ask your father for a fish he will not send you a serpent". Thus we are left with a decision. Shall we trust Jesus who obviously understands the power within, or should we trust fundamentalists who obviously do not.

The Bible symbolically portrays negative and hurtful thoughts as serpents and scorpions. Those thoughts which are so damaging to us. A fundamentalist is afraid of these serpents and scorpions. These thoughts which they refer to as devils and demons. But what did Jesus say.

Luke 10:19 " Behold I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you." That seems quite clear. The power of the enemy,

who is the enemy.?

We are told in Romans 8:7 who the enemy is, " the carnal mind which is not subject to Gods law, neither can it be."

When you enter into yourself you are entering into the Kingdom of God. Fundamentalists who do not agree with the teachings of Jesus Christ , frighten people away from this wonderful secret which is only attainable through meditation.

AGAIN, Jesus refers to all people who turn others away from entering within themselves in meditation. AGAIN LOOK AT IT!!!

Luke 11:52 " you have taken away the key of knowledge, you entered not in yourselves and them that were entering in, you hindered."

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer (teach) ye them (the people) that are entering to go in

"An ye have entered not in yourselves, therefore you shutup the God's Kingdom

says the Bible"

And where is the Revelation of who dwells in that inner place attainable only through meditation John 14:20, " at that time you will know, I am in the Father, you in me and I in you.

If we will trust Jesus and turn our backs on religion, we fill find the Kingdom Of God -within us, and the planet earth will become the planet heaven as was originally intended. We must first remove ourselves from the vestiges of religion, the profane, the unwise and the ignorant.

Is the kundalini in Buddhism?

the last paragraph tells the story

We find the serpent in Buddhism, including the Buddhist god, Magoraga, but the further Buddhism moved from its Hindu roots and the more philosophical it became the less room there was for any god, much less a serpent god.

However, we do have this one story: After his period of sitting under the Bo tree [ or Bodhi tree = Tree of Enlightenment] he sat for seven days under a great banyan tree.

Then he left that tree and went to a tree called 'The Tree of the Serpent King, Muchalinda.' Muchalinda is a huge cobra who dwelt in a hole amongst the tree roots. As the Buddha meditated, unmindful of his surroundings, a large storm arose.

Muchalinda crept out of his hole wrapped himself seven times around the Buddha, and with his great hood, kept his head dry.

providing the serpentine path or serpent or Kundalini energy rising from its hole, the solar plexus area, and when it reaches the brain, its hood protected the buddha and it will protect us in times of storms and struggles. And its in your bible. WOW!!!!

this as a mythological story dealing with the human body as the tree in this case a banyon tree, and meditation the energy flows along the pathway of the 7 spine nerve centers or chakras, "here its seven days", It takes seven times to destroy the animal nature, the times means, the seven chakras the seven seals.

The third eye is the pineal gland

The purpose of human life is *not* to prepare yourself for death. The purpose of human life is to live, free of fears, guilt, anxieties, and feelings of personal inadequacy. Its the journey, thats it!!!

This is why religion is the antichrist, because it heaps onto you, fears, guilt, anxieties and inadequacy and trys to convince you, that you are a sinner and not worthy.

And keeps you from embarking on your inner and outer journey. you see, this is just the opposite of what you are supposed to experience in this life.

You are suppose to board your ship, make way and navigate the high seas, explore new worlds, and continue on the journey, and look for the hidden lighthouse.

When the keel speaks, the ship will turn, but those that arent meditating, will not receive the instructions to turn from the keel, instead it will fall on them.

All this is revealed in the bible, but few read it, and those that do, dont understand it.

WINGED SERPENT GOD

The Bible has a verse in ISAIAH 30:6 that gives a clue to the mystery of the WINGED SERPENT. Speaking of EGYPT it says, "From whence come the young and old lion, the viper and FIERY FLYING SERPENT." The Kundalini and the Phoenix risiing from the ashes.

When we're "In the world when we are in (Egypt) (the lower mind) and when we're surrounded by ignoramuses and with other gods we are in (Babylon) ( also the lower mind), and in (Jerusalem) when we are with God (the higher mind),

You can live in the two, or choose to go straight to jerusalem Gods chosen land, the human mind (consciousness), (the higher mind). Remember Jerusalem is occupied by Jews, and a jew is one inwardly (one who meditates). Then we are "in the world, but not of the world".

We have departed egypt and fled from Babylon and have come home. We have departed from hell beneath, ruled by the lower animal quality of the mind.

Egypt and Babylon were the two great empires of ancient times. Both are full of deep spiritual significance. Symbols of the lower quality, the physical and the emotional.

Figuratively speaking we're all climbing either the Mountain of Blessing or the Mountain of Cursing (Gerizim or Ebal, Dt11:29), and we're either living In Him, and bound for Mt.Zion, or we're huffing up the wrong mountain! Or barking up the wrong tree! (The Ego) center of the mind.

So let us throw down aarons rod (the spine in meditation) "the tree of life" and take up our serpents in the wilderness (kundalini) and let it rise to open the gates, (the 12 cranial nerves of our brains) and allow the alien within the gates (God) to come in.

Then see God face to face in the land of pineal/piniel, and light the furnace of god 7 times, for-amen, in the presense of the twenty and four elders, and loose pegasus and allow him to fly to heaven/paradise. Then at last we will hear the true voice speaking to us.

Pegasus the winged white horse, shown in the caduceus with its wings and the third eye, and the seven seals or chakras

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 cor 12:4

The entire Bible, every story, from end to end is inside your head, it is an account of mans evolutionary progress out of the gross material matter of the animal quality of his soul, to the higher spiritual mind, from above ( the universe).

Every prostitute, man, woman, child, bird, dog, goat, cow, ass, pig, snake, city, jerk water town, river, Every symbol; blood, hair, milk, water, stones, iron, brass, clay, dirt, tree, bush, dung heap, fire, sword, pillar, fig, olive tree, seed, disease, pestilence, angel and devil.

Every tribe, cananites, menenites, jebusites, and any other ites, in fact everything including heaven and hell as well as the resurection are all within you, within in your head (mind), and your physical body.

Given to us from an ancient people in a symbolic form, called mythology, completely misunderstood by the world.

Its a journey of the souls rise from the descent of matter to the light in the pineal gland and fornix of the brain, as seen by jacob, also Saul, when he was stricken by a flash of light from heaven, on the road to damascus, and was blinded.

This is the kundalini as shown in the caduceus

This story has fooled the ages for sure, wars have been fought, people have been killed fighting over its misunderstood texts, the holy land jerusalim is sitting on your shoulders, all the while there are still wars being fought over the false holy land and false temples in a country called Israel. AMAZING!!!

Religion has to be the biggest HOAX the world has ever known, yet the Bible is the most complete book of the souls journey to God , in the world.

The book of Revelation ends with the destruction of Babylon (the lower nature) and the manifestation of the new Jerusalem (the higher mind) descending from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband.

Notice where jerusalim descended from, Heaven and where is heaven Inside of you! You can see that its not an geographical location, save; your brain.

"Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. "

" A JEW IS ONE INWARDLY"

"Romans 2:29"
that is to say one who seeks within himself through meditation, is a JEW. WOW!!

Is Ra El

isis ra elohim

the femenine isis, masculine RA and God ELohim

IS RA EL

is reached when one becomes a JEW, one goes inward, the word jew, is from the egyptian jeu, which means to go within, the u was changes to a w at some point.

Jacob is involved in a spiritual wrestling match. This is the struggle that goes on within us in our meditation to finally touch the higher or God light. Jacob prevails when he separates from physical desire which is symbolized by his thigh being put out.

Jacob then becomes Israel. IS Isis female RA Ra male, EL El Elohim God.

Danny

Again, the whole point in showing you this, is to show that you CANNOT use the Bible to argue about anything, because it's mythology describing the Kundalini process in MEDITATION, hidden behind strange verses and religious words.

My favourite quote "GOD give us life, happiness & compassion. Devil gives us religions & hell."

The military muslims & the Evangelicals & bush & saddam & bin laden all are dragging the human civilzation back to history(at least back 200 years!!).

So bush & all those believe in GOD & Jesus Christ & the Bible are going to Heaven & the rest are going to Hell.

That is some kind of Intelligent Design to send all of them to the same place to rid of the Earth of all morons.

I am bitter because I know so many who are killed & are being killed & are maimed in the stupid war in iraq!!!

Dear Mr. Chopra,

Please consider this third option to the intelligent design debate:

A man that you surely have heard of on TV has been saying since 1973 (more than 30 years ago) that life on earth was created by intelligent human beings from another planet. They created all life on earth thanks to DNA synthesis and genetic engineering, including humans beings in their image.

Sincerely,

Jean Gary

The Bible says this abit a farawat GALAXY NGC 4555

EZIEKEL

Do you see the reference to galaxy ngc 4555

1:1
Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

1:2
In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, here’s 4555 in symbols.


4555 CONNECTED TO SN1987A

The Book of Daniel connects Fornax the furnace through Shedrach, Mesach & Abednigo and the Pineal through Daniel and the Lions.

Immediately after the furnace story, a hand without an arm writes on the wall MENE MENE, number number.
MENE MENE

The Book of Daniel gives us reference to the furnace. In the brain the furnace is fornix which is connected to the Pineal Gland via stria pinealis. In the sky the Pineal is Supernova 1987a which runs a straight line to the constellation Fornax, the furnace.

The Book of Daniel gives us reference to the Pineal Gland. The Pineal Gland is represented by the sign of Leo the Lion.

The Book of Daniel now reveals the writing of the hand with no arm. The word Mene is Hebrew. Each letter has a numerical value.

M= 40 E=5 N=50 E=5 =4555
Please see Segment Six for a comment on the implications of 4555 involved with Supernova 1987a as well as Fornax.

It says YOUR kingdom has been numbered, YOUR kingdom, the kingdom of LIGHT

4555 THE GALAXY OF GOD ?

Two Thousand years ago, the Coptics of Egypt in the book called IEOU gave forth the number 4555.

Danny

"I'm afriad that, as the Serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" 2 Corinthians 11:3.

The issue is no longer about evoltion vs. creationism or Intelligent Design. The problem is not what are we to teach in our schools. I am a respecter of persons and hold dearly the belief that our freedoms include the choice to believe whatever we want. Having said that, The deceiver, Satan himself, has succeeded in blinding the minds of the unbelieving "that they should not see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ" 2 Corinthians 4:4. The attacks on Dr. MacArthur is a blatant attmept by the devil's emmisaries to minimize the truth that there is a Creator to whom every male and female will be held accountable. The issue is not about what to teach in our schools but it is the battle for souls who are entrenched and deluded by our enemy's philosophical system of foolishness. Do me a favor and read chapter one of 1 Corinthians and ask yourself if the world's wisdom is greater than God's. Then fall on your knees before the Almighty God, repent of your sin and receive the precious free gift of salvation.

Matt

NGC 4555 in the news

The Chandra image of NGC 4555 revealed that this large, isolated, elliptical galaxy is embedded in a cloud of 10-million-degree Celsius gas (left). The hot gas cloud has a diameter of about 400,000 light years, roughly twice that of the visible galaxy (right).


Astronomers have concluded that the combined gravity of the stars in the galaxy is far too low to hold the hot gas cloud to the galaxy - an enormous envelope, or halo, of dark matter is needed.

The total mass of the required dark matter halo is about ten times the combined mass of the stars in the galaxy, and 300 times the mass of the hot gas cloud.

A growing body of evidence indicates that dark matter - which interacts with itself and normal matter only through gravity - is the dominant form of matter in the universe.

According to the popular "cold dark matter" theory, dark matter consists of mysterious particles left over from the dense early universe that were moving slowly when galaxies and galaxy clusters began to form.

Most large, elliptical galaxies are found in groups and clusters of galaxies where they can gain or lose dark matter through collisions with other galaxies, so it is difficult to determine how much dark matter they originally possessed.

The Chandra observation of NGC 4555 confirms that an isolated, elliptical galaxy can possess a dark matter halo of its own.

Ngc 4555, is this your home? According to the bible it is.

It seems like stuff of science fiction, but sometimes truth is STRANGER than fiction.


http://www.nasa.gov/missions/deepspace/chandra_dark_matter_halo.html

How did the ancients know all this? It’s all Greek to me.

how did the greeks have all the planets named thousands of years ago including pluto and it's moon charon, all wothout telescopes.

danny

For too long our academic institutions have blindly forced the youth of the world to accept the evolution theory without question. The time has come to expand on our knowledge of evolution and not to be afraid. God does exist and will empower us to achieve more knowledge about ourselves. Mr.Chopra, keep up the good work.

My goodness, Mr. Chopra...
Perhaps you should stick to quantum philosophy. Your comments here, read after last eve's Larry King, read like a laundry list of creationist/I.D. claptrap.
I'm quite disappointed.
One would think that a person of your wisdom and acumen in other areas of this type of philosophy, would be a bit less idiotic in his overview of the evolutionary process.
I myself believe the Universe is intelligent and self-aware, and I do it using some of the same sort of quantum-philosophical information that you do, but I can't possibly agree with your parroting of the Discovery Institute's misunderstandings of Science.
Oddly, very little of the stance you present in this writing, was apparent on last night's Larry King show. I had to come here (per your suggestion), to see what you "actually" believe (?).
That the Universe is intelligent and self-aware does not imply that it meddles around with the laws of physics more than the subtle amount permitted by quantum mechanics. You ought at least to know that much.

I cannot help it!!

Watching small bush talking to any group is like watching a moron talking to a group of idiots, with most of them applauding whatever he is saying.

And then the Robertson(the Number one Evangelical in the world & small bush's best friend)'s assertion to get rid of all their adversaries(just like the military muslims!!)by murdering!!!!!!!

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

What is going on??

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

What is going on?? What is going on, America??????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
The land of democracy. What is going on??

????????????????????????????????????????????????

Is it the signal of the decline of civilization like the decline of the Roman Empire, just because of some moron in power???

And we elected him, in the name of Democracy!!!!!

Can someone stop it?

Can Intelligence Design solve all these problems?
(like sending all Evangelicals & radical muslims to Heaven & the world will be at peace forever---thank GOD!!!!

Please be aware that many Americans & Iraqisare still dying now & all Iraqis are living in fear all the time. And the Moron just want to scare you that America is under attack & he is trying to save all of you & he is bringing the battle to some far away land, not his range!

You are safe at home and bush is safe at his range. All others suffer. But that is not his business.

There is a war going on?? A bush war??

Who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bush is talking around the country to try to suck more young men into joining the force against the evil-doers!!!

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the one hand "Intelligent Design" deals with the question: "how did we all get here in the first place to have this conversation". This is philosophy, is it not? Isn't it an investigative or "WHY" issue?

The heart of the matter seems to be: To what end do we ask this question.

The answer will decide what tools shall we use to investigate this burning question? We must not mix tools.

Science is ONE Technique.It seeks to provide tentative but useable answers. It's main limitation is that it deals with artificial parameters from which extrapolations can be made. The products of those projections are the tentative proofs of the scientific method.

Theology is not a viable alternative to science with respect to the burning question at hand because it does not seek answers;and because of certain inherent weaknesses. It has no inherent safety features, such as "proofs'. It relies on external persuaders such as the brute force of RUMOURED authority.

Philosophy lies in between, inasmuch as it asks the questions. But, it gives no solutions nor even any answers. Thus it is impotent. It remains an hypothesis.Forever!
To Illustrate:
If I hypothesize that:
Evolution is not a physical phenomenon. Rather,that there has been an evolution in the "language" or software program with which we express our mental perceptions, in which case by analogy
1- a person as being analogous to the computer tune played on an mp3 player;
2- THE universal mind as being analogous to the software program that plays computer tunes (the only difference being that the human software program is so sophisticated that it is self-programmable).
3- The person's body and brain as being analogous to MP3 hardware.
Using this model of reality my conclusion would be that What EVOLVES is not the MP3 hardware, but the MP3 software "program".

In other words evolution is simply a more sophisticated and speciaized adaptation of my cultural software to perceived circumstances, such as my 'environment'. The caveman has the same hardware but different software.

I may not be able to prove it scientifically. But at least I can try using science to move from the sandy soil of a philosophical observation to firmer ground. That opportunity escapes me along the theological path.

In making a case for theology, one could argue that we ultimately must repair to the land of faith anyway because one cannot prove anything scientifically (except to oneslf) because ultimately the universe is subjective, being composed of units of 'significance' rather than 'particles of matter'.

He could argue that the reality of our presence here need not be explained via the finite concepts of 'begining' and 'end' or of an external 'creator'. For instance a circle or a globe has no begining nor end. Likewise, it is possible to imagine there never having been a creator that made original consciousness possible.

Therefore, this entire conversation is neither the domain of science nor theology; but of philosophy. Philosophy requires a trained intellect and as such has no rightful place in the pre-collegiate classroom.

Deepak,

I caught you for 5 minutes on CNN last night. Came into work this morning and downloaded the transcript of the show. Which led me to this site.

I believe Teilhard de Chardin offered answers to these "leaps" of nature as you have described them.

I am wondering your thoughts on him.

Wicked site.

One

My response to related article in New Yorker magazine:

After reading Hendrik Hertberg's take on President Bush and his position on Evolution and Intelligent Design [Comment, Mired, issue 8/22/05], I could not get any farther than the short paragraph below without choking on my Danish. In contrast to Evolution, Hertberg rather sarcastically explains that "mud" is the material used to form the first humans in various culture's creation myths; he describes the sacred Darwinian model thusly;

A competing theory is that people, along with the rest of the earth's animals and plants, evolved over billions of years, beginning as extremely simple organisms and, via the accumulation of the tiny fraction of random mutations that turn out to be useful, developing into more complex ones............. and, thanks to the overwhelming evidence for its validity, has the near-unanimous support of scientists everywhere.

The key phrase here is "beginning as extremely simple organisms". Clearly a gratuitous assumption. Microbiologists know there is no such thing as a "simple" living organism, they're very complex machines. Where did these organisms come from? Science has no legitimate explanation. Creationists do. Science's explanations are as mythological as the "mud" theory. In fact it is a mud, or perhaps a "rock" myth. They want us to believe that complex life forms evolved on their own from rock, which broke down into mud and a primordial soup. From the goo to you by way of the zoo. That's science. There has never been demonstrated in science a mechanism by which "random mutations" have produced "more complex" novel life forms. The evidence is not "overwhelming", and as he also stated, two-thirds of the populace has the intuitive common sense to defy the scientists conclusions and believe that complex designs in nature have a designer. If a person where to look at Mount Rushmore and suppose it was the result of erosion, wind and rain, without a designer, we might call them a half-wit, a nimnew. Let's exponentially up the stakes now and look at the supreme complexity of life. What do we call someone who says life happens randomly without a designer? We call them a scientist.
Libraries could be filled with books about theories once called "science" that would today be laughable. I believe evolution is one such theory.When the scientists make it to the peak of the mountain in their quest for answers to our origins, they will find sitting there, the theologians.

Jim Golding

Maybe it is OUR minds and the minds of every other living thing that have directed the evolutionary process all along and WE (Us Humans) are one of the end products of it and simply don't realize it yet. Maybe that realization is ultimately what we are all evolving towards. I mean think about it, scientists say that we are all here by random chance and that all of life (including us) had to adapt to the environment in order to survive. Ok, how could a non intelligent unconcious random evolutionary process based on "adapting to the environment" know that it is adapting in the first place and is producing order? How could one random event build upon previous random events without some sort of intelligence behind it? IT WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS BUILDING ANYTHING AT ALL. How did an unconcious process produce conciousness? How could a non intelligent unconcious random evolutionary process ever produce a life form such as me and you that HAS conciousness and is able to go beyond adapting AND can actually change it's environment? I personally think we have it all backwards and we simply are leaving out one of the most impotant components in this whole thing...OUR MINDS, US, the one who's doing the thinking itself, yes YOU, the one who is reading this blog entry. I think our non physical minds have always existed, which explains how there can be no "before" the Big Bang. I think we have been guiding this evolutionary process at a subconcious level all along and just haven't woken up to that realization yet. I think that's where this whole evolutionary process is ultimately leading us!

This is my first time posting to this blog. I saw the CNN show last night and thanks to Deepak getting the plug in, I managed to find this place of great debate.

I understood what the lady was saying when she said science is merely a methodology and as a consequence cannot take a leap of faith.

Then it would it be fair to say that science is a material process? Science seeks answers in matter. Science therefore is the examination of matter.

Deepak touched on the question of the observed and the observer and that science fails to examine the observer in as much detail as to what is observed.

This again I could understand. When I see these debates in shows like I just saw on CNN, it seems to me that we as people are more concerned with protecting what our ideas (including myself) rather than engaging in dialogue regarding the possibilities of life or whatever.

Maybe this happens because the animal instinct of survival makes its way into the psyche, after all if our ideas get trashed what are we left with?

The other funny thing I observe and I say this in all humility, is that a lot of us as people seem to have answers. Information and what you know is far more important than observing, listing and learning.

This would go back to what I mentioned above in that we focus more on the material, in terms of what is observed, rather than understanding the observer.

This of course brings us to the question of identity which is the quality or condition of being the same as something else.

Based on this would there be an inherent flaw in relation to the observer, if forming conclusions based on information which is inherently limited. Case in point, what I know today may not be true tomorrow?

Then in steps philosophy and the charge that it is just an intellectual debate on life and so on.

So as one may see, information as I am indulging in right now has a consequence of just going in circles with variations due to additions or adaptations over time?

Anyway enough for now I will await the Deepak’s next post.

Paul Hegarty
Feel free to take this conversation up with me.
http://www.learningfromdvds.com/blog/

To marek.............

Who the hell is Sharon Stone & what the hell are you talking about???

bush should send you to iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deepak,

Where do you get this nonsense? You speak as if you have some kind of authority, but the only authority you have to support your ideas is your wild imagination. You speak mysteries and choose language that cannot be understood because your claims and ideas have no truth behind them. You are the blind seeking to lead the blind.

What authority do you possess that would lead anyone to believe that what you say is true? What makes your opinions any more valid than anyone else's? The answer is absolutely nothing.

I pray for you that God will be gracious to you and open your eyes to the obvious self-deception and pride in which you live. You are rejecting the God who made you, who is revealed so clearly in his creation and especially in the Bible, and was declared most of all in his only son Jesus Christ. It saddens me beyond words that you are apparently leading so many people astray from the truth to your unsubstantiated beliefs.

haha,
Oh m y G O D...!, you don´t know who Sharon Stone is?

totally in the topic of today and so..

Gods ´intelligent design´ and so..

and poetry in motion..

Damn good DNA, if ya know what I mean..,

because,
Most of the people posting here are ...

haha,

anyway, doesn´t matter..

And as for the Big Smurf in charge there over ya yanks in Smurf country,

Well..look at it from Monty Python´s point of view...Always look at the ...

A small step for the Bushpeople,
a giant leap for the AA,
for as, if George can do it..,

Love, Passion,

You would think that God or the intelligence at the source of creation could design the whole thing, soup to nuts including evolution, without having to stop and make changes mid-stream, without having to halt and artifically intervene to keep things moving forward. One imagines that there are no real miracles, that everything has explanation if you look deep enough. At the quantum level all possibilies appear to be structured into what comes out of that state.

There is no need to single out evolution. Intelligent design underlies underlies everything. Jupiter stays in its orbit due to its speed of rotation and the effect of gravity. But you can also say that Jupiter stays in its orbit due to the Intelligent Design that permits the Sun's gravity and the planet's speed to offset each other causing it lie at its current location in space.

One explanation is physics, the other philosopy or meta-physics.

it´s all about love, you nerds posting here,

the rest are details!

Namaste! with Passion!

As dr. Chopra quoted A. Einstein,´

´I want to know the thoughts of god,
the rest are details`

But ya all can spend an infinite of space-time continuem to figure that last one out..,

..
americans...man..no wonder you elected a smurf...

Kirk:

And, what authority do you own? Your accusations, judgements and assumptions are no different than what you are claiming Deepak is guilty of.

One of the greatest bytes CNN ever offered was a black screen with big white text on it (that was posted right after 9/11), it stated, and I quote:

"More people have been killed in the name of religion than have been saved by it."

I remember this day very clearly. I was in AWE that CNN posted a complete black screen with large white text that filled it up with the foregoing, and left it there for a good minute or two.

It's belief systems that seperate us from one another and keep us from evolving into something greater. It's staying true to many times wacky convictions that are the cause of all wars, suffering and grief in the world, period.

It's also limited thinking, ignorance and arrogance that hold us back from something greater.

Who's right and who's wrong? Who's got the right to judge that? This is what's sad about our society.

Who really knows? Who can prove it? Let us all be humble enough to realize that and enjoy the journey we are on, one day at a time.

yeah, totally support that,
and,

My dear,
Love ya, but..
I think I´m gonna have to sentence ya to..

Further reading,
Law of Non-Judgement, Giving, Karma, Dharma..

and all the other books the good Doctor has written,

And then,
we can have..
a beer!
and talk about the beauty in life,

(because that´s what ´intelligence´ does..)
(sharon Stone for instance..;)

or watch..Revenge of the nerds? or Monty Python...

You just don´t get it, people...americans..

christians scare me more than any other "organized" religion. Why can people not separate faith and spirituality from politics and religion.....

Why should we have to? Why is atheism, also a faith proposition, not held against the atheist? There is no good reason I should have to separate my faith and spirituality from the rest of my life. To the contrary, if faith is genuine and real as the Bible teaches I can do nothing but allow it to guide everything I do....correct? So the idea you posit would simply prove that my faith is real because I cannot separate it and comparmentalize it. Do you think Mr. Chopra does this??? Let's ask him to leave his New-Age teachings out of everything he does. Next time he appears on Larry King see if he'll agree to leave out his faith and belief system.

Wasn't is Einstein the said "Without experience, there is no knowledge?" I'm not sure. Mr. Chopra has come as close to an explanation of reality as anything I have ever read or heard. But let's be honest, we are not a very intelligent species, although we have our prodigies, at least to our lowly abilities, but the truth of it all is that our brains are not wired to comprehend these questions. Religions are just man made crutchs to give people comfort and alleviate their fears. Quantum physics is coming closer to finding the reality of existence, but is so beyond the comprehension, even of the physicists,tha it is impossible to prove these theories in terms of our ability to understand them. Unfortunately we are cursed to live with our never-ending curosity and our deep frustration of never being able to obtain the answers.

pg

Deepak stated: How can whole systems appear all at once? The leap from reptile to bird is proven by the fossil record.

This is patently false. I'm sure scientists would be shocked to know this. This simply is not true. This is the problem with Evolutionists...they do not deal in facts but want everyone else to do so.

Deepak stated:If mutations are random, why does the fossil record demonstrate so many positive mutations--those that lead to new species

Also patently false. There are no mutations in the fossil record or otherwise where a leap is made from one species "mutating" into another. It simply isn't there. This is where I see a need to teach the facts, stating what the reproducible facts are, but also stating what is theory and presenting all theories in an honest open intellectual dialogue. What is the harm and why all the fear and panic?

My response to related article in New Yorker magazine:

After reading Hendrik Hertberg's take on President Bush and his position on Evolution and Intelligent Design [Comment, Mired, issue 8/22/05], I could not get any farther than the short paragraph below without choking on my Danish. In contrast to Evolution, Hertberg rather sarcastically explains that "mud" is the material used to form the first humans in various culture's creation myths; he describes the sacred Darwinian model thusly;

A competing theory is that people, along with the rest of the earth's animals and plants, evolved over billions of years, beginning as extremely simple organisms and, via the accumulation of the tiny fraction of random mutations that turn out to be useful, developing into more complex ones............. and, thanks to the overwhelming evidence for its validity, has the near-unanimous support of scientists everywhere.

The key phrase here is "beginning as extremely simple organisms". Clearly a gratuitous assumption. Microbiologists know there is no such thing as a "simple" living organism, they're very complex machines. Where did these organisms come from? Science has no legitimate explanation. Creationists do. Science's explanations are as mythological as the "mud" theory. In fact it is a mud, or perhaps a "rock" myth. They want us to believe that complex life forms evolved on their own from rock, which broke down into mud and a primordial soup. From the goo to you by way of the zoo. That's science. There has never been demonstrated in science a mechanism by which "random mutations" have produced "more complex" novel life forms. The evidence is not "overwhelming", and as he also stated, two-thirds of the populace has the intuitive common sense to defy the scientists conclusions and believe that complex designs in nature have a designer. If a person where to look at Mount Rushmore and suppose it was the result of erosion, wind and rain, without a designer, we might call them a half-wit, a nimnew. Let's exponentially up the stakes now and look at the supreme complexity of life. What do we call someone who says life happens randomly without a designer? We call them a scientist.
Libraries could be filled with books about theories once called "science" that would today be laughable. I believe evolution is one such theory.When the scientists make it to the peak of the mountain in their quest for answers to our origins, they will find sitting there, the theologians.

Jim Golding

Goddess bless us

Deepak,

I really enjoyed your appearance on Larry King as well as your post here. Thanks for keeping the dialogue alive.

I have to say that I disagree with your argument in point #12, which uses the beauty in nature to support Intelligent Design. And frankly, I am surprised that you would make this argument given that you take interest in understanding the observer.

The physical world itself has no inherent beauty per se. Matters have shapes and certain properties that affect how light is reflected or absorbed. When the light reflected off an object hits our eyes, our brain creates images. You can say that these images are beautiful (to you), but that's about all you can say. You can't say that the observed object is inherently beautiful. What if humans can see a wider spectrum of visible light and be able to see x-rays, gamma rays and etc? Does a rose still look beautiful? Who knows? But it's the same rose. What if our eye sights are so much better that we can always see the molecule structure of everything down to the protons and electrons? Does anything still look beatiful? Again, who knows?

The bottom line is, unless you already believe in creationism, you certainly can't assume that the concept and definition of beauty were some how established first, and then somehow the world had to fit the definition.

No. Whether through evolution or by intelligent design, beauty is something that exists in our head only. It lies in how we interpret the information gathered by our senses (sight, sound, smell, and etc). It cannot exist independently outside of it.

When we find something beautiful, it means that we are attracted to it. Can the tendency to be attracted to certain things give a species selective advantage? Certinaly! Likewise, the ability to attract other organisms can also be the source of selective advantage.

I am not saying that evolution theory doesn't have its own flaws. But in my opinion your 'beauty' argument to support intelligent design is problematic.

Once again, thanks for encouraging the debate.

Deepak,

I'm disappointed that you are taken in by such weak anti-evolution factoids. I recommend reading "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, or "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth Miller. These books very compellingly and engagingly refute ALL the points that you raise.

"When the scientists make it to the peak of the mountain in their quest for answers to our origins, they will find sitting there, the theologians."

Jim Golding, does your definition of "theologians" include great spiritual leaders, in general, such as the Dalai Lama, and other Eastern, or Mid-Eastern religious leaders? Or, does "theologian" equate to "Christian" as most would associate the word?

THEOLOGY: A system or school of opinions concerning God and religious questions: Protestant theology; Jewish theology

We are back to Christian-based belief systems.

Therein lies the quandary.

Who really knows? Who can prove it?

It's hard for me to believe that this isn't a joke. It's as though you've gone out of your way to compile as many of the silliest (and often refuted) objections to evolutionary theory as possible.

I'm not going to go down your list point by point because it's too densely filled with misunderstanding, but I'm going to list a few of the most glaring misconceptions found therein.

1. You frequently focus on one part of evolution. Either it's the random mutations, or the directed natural selection. Evolutionary theory requires both. Mutation produces variation, selection produces direction.

2. Natural selection is non-tautological. The claims of tautology are mere wordplay. "Survival of the fittest," is a popular description of what it means, but what the statement really says is that variation in attributes of a species creates differential survival rates between different phenotypes. Not surprising, but not tautological either.

3. Evolution does not "stop," but larger changes occur either when an old niche disappears (extinction) or a new niche is open (adaptive radiation). Evolution's not all about "necessity" but also about "opportunity". If there's a path into any new niche, evolutionary theory predicts that it will tend to be filled. New survival strategies will appear to match what's available.

4. Molecules don't acquire "intelligence" in any meaningful sense of the word when they come into contact with life. They are moved about and changed by much sophisticated molecular machinery, but the molecules themselves never seem to stop behaving like molecules.

5. When you talk of things happening "suddenly" or "all at once," don't confuse a geologist's use of the word with everyday usage, or even that of, say, most population biologists. In a geologic "moment" tens of thousands of human generations may pass. The term's a bit misleading and lends itself easily to equivocation.

6. "Fitness" is a relative term. It's relative to the environment. You mentioned a lot of environments in which DNA is not fit. It's completely irrelevant, of course. It would be a bigger problem for evolutionary theory if it WERE found in such environments despite their conditions.

7. Individual organisms are not selected, but rather "genes" or more accurately still, all hereditary informational structures. Individual bees die, but they do so in functions that assure that those who carry their genes (e.g. the queen) and make more DO survive. Genes that produce queens that produce kamikaze worker bees are not themselves committing suicide, and they are what gets passed on, and hence what evolves.

8. Assertions about no other molecules replicating themselves for billions of years after the Big Bang are groundless. We simply don't know that such things haven't happened elsewhere. We only know that something like that is happening on Earth, and must have been in the past (actually it must have started only a few hundred million years after the Earth cooled according to the fossil record).

9. The "simultaneous mutations" you mention needn't have been simultaneous.

10. "Scaffolding," or the removal of formerly necessary parts may create "irreducibly complex" structures in which the removal of any remaining piece will create a non-functional system. Cellular automata, a form of simulated evolving life, have created irreducibly complex structures.

Some things I'd like to note that you got right (well sort of):

1. Cooperation is indeed found in nature alongside competition. Unfortunately, this doesn't lend strength to your arguments, as it is simply an example of opportunistic niche-filling.

2. Using over-flexible justifications is actually a risk that evolutionary biologists run, which is why they must look at the implications of each such justification beyond the simple fact that evolution must be occurring. That is, it must be assessed whether, in a statistical sense, an organism's environment makes flashy colors a bigger asset or bigger liability. The logic's not identical when the particular environment of an organism is considered.

What disturbs me more than the way the debate is framed is the way I see the same erroneous arguments repeated ad nauseum, albeit from people with different belief systems (I can list Christians, Muslims, Raelians, and now Hindus, I suppose). I think concern with the merits of the arguments you're using should precede concern with who's hijacking usage of these arguments.

I'm gald to see your post on design. The evangelists of naturalism have done their best to pass off their dogma as science, but it's no longer working. Design is science, with or without the Bible.

Evolution News & Views
http://www.evolutionnews.org/
Science Watch
http://sciencewatch.blogspot.com/
Reasons to Beleive
http://www.reasons.org

Hi Deepak,
Heard the discussion. I have always thought of the intelligent design, but never knew the subject existed.
My only fear is that - it will be used to promote a religious thought. And so I am against it being tought in schools.
I just hope simple minded, unbiased people make decision in this regard.

Thanks for sharing your views.
Neeraj.

OK, let's compare the complexities of all of creation to the process that produced Mt. Rushmore or any other man made structure, shall we? Are you kidding me?

Most people acknowledge some powerful force somewhere in the universe, Fundamentalists of most religions say it's their god. And of course only their god is valid.

The arrogance and simple-mindedness it takes to buy into the myths of organized religion which often leads to extremism is frightening to this “you gotta be kidding me girl”.

We just don’t know, none of us do, but the discussion about it is delicious!

Coree

I would refute each of these points in turn, but a few people have done a good job of it already, and there's no point in hammering it home again. Deepak, these questions you raise are clearly answerable, and serve only to muddy the waters of the "debate" regarding evolution. Within the scientific community, there really is no debate, and biologists generally find these sorts of "challenges" pretty laughable. Cappy, in an earlier post, points out why.

The problem with the "debate" is that it is overwhelmingly framed by people who are not biologists and fundamentally DO NOT UNDERSTAND evolution and natural selection. This includes you, Mr. Chopra. I am surprised that you could be an MD and not understand basic chemistry. I am a third year biology major and even I apparently have a better grasp on the nature of oxygen molecules in the respiratory system than you (and I learned it in a community college, for crying out loud). This "debate" could be likened to someone claiming that storks deliver newborns, being told that the overwhelming majority of gynecologists disagree, and then claiming there is a debate on the issue.

All of you should really take a remedial biology class or two. I wouldn't dare attack your spirituality simply because my scientific discipline can't explain it. To attack a scientific discipline because your spirituality (or better yet, your homocentric ego) may be challenged by it is equally immoral.

Jim D

PS. The anthropic principle has generally been dismissed as simple tautology. "In order for humans to ponder the mysteries of the universe, the universe had to have precise conditions permitting our existence." Well duh. That says nothing and is meaningless; please don't throw the term around to bolster your position. It is irresponsible.

D-

One more thing, which I have to mention as an amateur apiarist: Drones are male bees and do mate with the queen. I know, it's easy to make that mistake; the word "drone" kinda sounds like a substitute for "worker bee." I've done it myself in casual conversation. However, you should read up on good ol' apis mellifera. Look up the concept of haplodiploidy, and you'll learn how both drones (literally fatherless males) and worker bees (nonreproductive females) do it.

Deepak,

I think you should write a book "Intelligent Design 101" based on what you have said here.

We can give that to high school students who need to be taught Alternate theories.

I really want you to do that... just to see the reaction from the Bible thumbers.

LOL

Phew ..I am a much smaller soul amidst you all in this intense discussion ...
but i blogged about it in my May 04 post (The Divine Probability) and wondered as to how anyone in his right mind can even enetertain a notion of the absence of God or some higher power ?? There are a million things that happen around us with clockwise precision and can all that be purely random ?? How can they all be a mere chance event ? I do get intrigued when I meet someone who says that they don't believe in the existence of a higher power above ....
Am jumping on to read Deepak's Part two post for now !

Never give up Deepak. Keep up the great work!!

Scientists say that we are all here by random chance and that all of life (including us) had to adapt to the environment in order to survive.

How could a non intelligent unconcious random evolutionary process based on "adapting to the environment" know that it is adapting in the first place and is producing order?

How could one random event build upon previous random events without some sort of intelligence behind it? IT WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS BUILDING ANYTHING AT ALL.

How did an unconcious process produce conciousness?

How could a non intelligent unconcious random evolutionary process ever produce a life form such as me and you that HAS conciousness and is able to go beyond adapting AND can actually change it's environment?

"Science is about PROOF. Religion is about FAITH."

The Theory of Evolution has not been proven, and is probably an un-provable theory in any practical sense. To accept the Theory of Evolution without such proof requires faith.

Mr Chopra, I believe you've sparked a religious debate, despite your intentions to have an intelligent discussion about other possibilities.

Wonderful statement, Mr. Choopra. I only wish the debate on Mr. King's show had gone better.

One comment I have relative to Char's statement (included below): Intelligent Design's hallmark of controversy is that it requires a designer. A Designer, or designer, designs and creates things only for a purpose. Even if the purpose is for idle meanderings, there is still purpose. This is implicit in the idea that a designer did the designing. So to say that the filter of "God's Purpose" makes intelligent design seem flaky makes no sense at all. Whether you believe in God, or god, or gods is irrelevent. If there was a designer, by definition we and everything around us was created for a purpose. We were Intended, reasoned, abstracted, realized, created, evolved.... without the purpose (whatever it is) there is no point in the creation or the design.

So at it's core, Christianity depends upon an Intelligent Designer who had a reason, or a purpose, for designing and creating the universe and everthing in it. The two are not only compatible, but necessary for Christianity to make any sense.

So get with the game!!! You and I were created by a designer with a special purpose in mind!! Doesn't that make you feel even more wonderful about yourself, your friends, and the world around you? It should...

Love,
Doug

Char wrote:

"2. The idea that there is a purpose to the universe is a very Christian concept. This world and everything that happens here is God's Will they belive. When viewed through the "God's purpose" filter the theory of intelligent design sounds flaky. Without that baggage, however, there is much to be considered as you so lucidly spelled out. "

Dear Deepak, There is a very simple answer to your second question:

2. If mutations are random, why does the fossil record demonstrate so many positive mutations -- those that lead to new species -- and so few negative ones? Random chance should produce useless mutations thousands of times more often than positive ones.

The answer is that the negative mutations, which happen all the time, usually kill the organism carrying them, often in utero long before the organism can even be born. Ergo, these mutations never appear in the fossil record. Also, all human genetic diseases are examples of negative mutations; the ones we know about are mutations that are not quite bad enough to kill the person carrying them before they are born. Many mutations are never observed because they are lethal and cannot be survived. We know this from many studies of model organisms including fruit flies, mice, and fish.

Cancer is what happens to a mature organism when one of its cells gets a few bad mutations in the same cell.

Another example is drug resistance in bacteria and viruses. Take HIV; it's genome is 10000 bases in length, divided among about 14 genes. When the virus is subjected to drug therapy, only a handful of possible mutations out of the 30000 (10000 bases times three other possible single base mutations) it can make actually provide some sort of benefit; most do nothing or are lethal.

This is the whole point of evolution; death is the guiding hand. Organisms with mutations that either kill them or provide them with no benefit in the face of changing environmental conditions, don't end up making new species and don't end up in the fossil record.

Damian McColl,Ph.D

If I can try your patience will a little bit of reading I'd like to offer 3 major exhibits from the defense's bench as Intelligent Design seems to be on trial for heresy by a single-minded prosecutor.

There are dozens of isolated cases that ID is investigating, but these three have captivated me beyond a resonable doubt and I hope it will also start asking intriguing questions in you as well.

Intelligent Design must be based on fundalmental rationality and deductive ability on the part of the inquirer. To interject faith-based creationism and even philosphy would lend crendence to skeptical claims that Intelligent Design is old wine in new bottles and a clever trojan horse faith-based psuedo-science ruse cloaked in the modern synthax of science. In fact, Intelligent Design is not hard-wired to evolution theory as its prime base, it is a broad diversified portfolio in many sciences and disciplines, and that's what skeptics do not want or fail to understand.

Creationism is an old article that would reject astronomy, cosmology, biology, earth sciences, evolution, and any other valid form of discovery mechanism in the modern world. Fundalmentalist creationism should not hold sway in the court of Intelligent Design and not have an creationist emeritus alongside; they are two seperate issues. One is of faith the other of pure deductive rationality with a growing body of work by scientists for whom a 19th century evolutionary decrees is wholly inadequate to explain the totality of everything evolutionary in the 21st century; some 150 years after Charles Darwin's pioneering treatise. Decades and even years in today's rapid buildup of scientific knowledge are enough to render entire standards and scientific hypotheses much less concrete than when they were first introduced.

Creationism has more in common with one-track old baroque mindframes that once lovingly supported flat Earthism in lieu of geography, and if given the chance due to no scientific breakthroughts would possibly claim that alchemy is the better of chemistry, magic is the better of physics, phrenology is the better of nuerology, astrology is the better of astronomy,...ecetera. In short, a creationist agenda that would commandeer and feed the acrimony of scientific materialism is not securing high ground for a new convincing postulate that is making great strides in offering a logical conclusion that Nature is inheritently intelligent, that "intelligence" behind organic and inorganic mechanisms that transitioned inanimate incoherent un-intelligent sub-atomic and atomic particles from a venue of lifelessness to a living state, and life from the ultra-simple primordial into the realm of sentient, conscious, creative ultra-complexity.

For me, "intelligence" does reside natively in the Universe as its natural abode, most visibly detectable in the area of physics and most pronounced in the progressive discovery field of String Theory.

If it is to be believed that matter and energy and the universal laws of gravity, electro-magnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces are commonly composed of infinately small strings, then if I may propose the following:

1) As such small particles that cannot react in their environment being near mass-less, then there is no evolutionary trial and error, random modification or even an accident clause, there are no chances of adaptation or natural selection in this quantum mechanic environment because they are operating in a vaccum and they're nearly immaterial (mass-less). Traditional evolutionary theory cannot apply here, and as such, strings are immutable, forever not able to change or modify. If strings exist, then they were established for a reason in the Universe' beginnings, created in symphony to give matter and energy its resonance and developed properties. This being the case, strings had to be intelligently designed outside the sphere of progressive modular buildup and alteration. They were, they are, they were the original building blocks with purpose to be the ungirding archecture and scaffolding on which matter and energy resides. They were proundly well designed, and design connotates an intelligence. There cannot be any other explanation, that is not faith, that's fact.

2.) Let's also assume atomic and sub-atomic matter is neither animated nor intelligent nor coherent to an intelligent order or that is "knows something". If you don't believe that, then you believe in Intelligent Design implicitly, but let's assume that atomic matter is perpertually dead and unconscious. Presuming then that atoms are intuitively unconscious and possess no order-making capability, what is the guidance system, the helm control of these atoms and sub-atoms to constructively manuvoer themselves to align and join with another atoms? And this new body of atoms to co-join with a larger community of atoms to the point of making elements? What is the incentive, the intuitive drive or reason for atoms to arbitrarily come together into larger and larger pools if we've decided that atoms cannot reason and have any purpose? There had to be some elemental guidance "force" or system at work, materialist science would point to a naturalistic physical process. That is a half compromising answer, when we know that atoms form the modular building blocks of life and without this large-scale Universal melding of atoms nothing would be remotely possible. It is the forceful purposeful manuvering of atomic structures and atoms together that forms the second tier after basic strings on the path to successive design. This isn't faith, this is fact.

3) In human evolution, I accept skeptically most but not all of Darwinian evolution theory. I accept natural selection, modification, alternation subject to environmental conditions. What I cannot fully accept is the sheer pell-mell randomness and raw accidental ascendancy of mankind if we are to believe Darwin's crux agrument for a common origin that all Earthly life originated from a communal primordial sludge. If we believe that all of Earth's lifeforms from insects to mammals to bacteria to the three-toed sloth to salmon share a common ancestry and heritage with humans, then that begs the definitive question of when this transitional creature or "missing link" was subject to a faster evolutionary pathway.

In other words, the proto-ancestor of humans was for millions of years on par and on equal terms in capability and thinking with the rest of the animal kingdom. It can be assumned then that the creatures that would evolve into humans was indistinguishable from the rest of the animal kingdom. At some point however, this creature that was to become human had come into a quantum leap--something that science does not deny. This quantum leap meant one of two things, being moved or transitioned onto an accelerated evolutionary track or lane that far outperformed the rest of the animal kingdom or that this transitional creature was guided or "seasoned" to march past the evolutionary milestones faster being now the possessor of a superior acumen and capability than the rest of the animal marathon field could muster. At some point there was a transition achieved, a synapse bridged or other phenamenon, science calls this the "missing link" or the "quantum leap of Man" which you scarely find an evolutionist who will dispute; and an extra quality inbued to this transitional creature allowed for its remarkable growth.

It is open to debate whether this transitional creature was "engineered", "aided" or interdicted by natural or supernatural alien forces; it would be simplistic in the extreme to write off human evolution to the muse of naturalistic equality in the animal kingdom; clearly not one species being among millions of competitors ever reached cognitive, creative and higher order consciousness exhibited by our own species. Clearly there was no "equality" when we factor in the exponential growth of humanity. That is not faith, that's fact.

There were millions of distinct species and sup-species to inhabit Earth from the genesis of life on Earth, and from all these, the odds that only one sentient, creative, self-conscious, civilization-building being that can fathom and understand art, love, beauty, truth, empirical methodology, mortality, and organization emerged while the rest did not, or even remotely come in second place is the largest compromising presumption neo-Darwinists could make. The odds that only one choice species dawned the capability to supremely drawf the landscape of Earth without peer or a close competitor using only the laws of unguided chance, random luck, trial and error, adaptability, surviveablity, and modification is an incomplete picture.

With our closet kin, our chimpanze cousins we share a 97% gene commonality, and truth has it that this extra 3% that was an epoc-making difference-maker of collossal proportions. I hope Intelligent Design harvests more fruitful knowledge of RNA and DNA to solve this baffling sphinx of why "we made it" and our closet relatives did not. It is clear, we are 97% close in proximity in genes yet seperated by a Universe. That's not faith, that's fact.

--------------------

In the end, evolutionist theory science is so dependent on neo-Darwinism as the prime exporter of scientific materialism that is has built itself up as the only must-have explanation. It is ardently defended and castled in by mainstream academia to the point of religious fervor without admitting any daylight into its questioned and glaring incompleteness. It is this very incompleteness amid other "missing links" that all gaining sciences and theories work on to bring about better improved closure to any scientific field; all science is juried and critiqued to the point of absoluteness and surety before it can become a scientific "law" something Dawinism has failed to accomplish in over 150 years. The noblest cause of science should not make a stout defense of anything, not even by a knot of Darwinist bishop-soldiers until there is "absolutely certainty" beyond a reasonable doubt and irrefuteable evidence to cement and not just assumedly paper over the yawning gaps of neo-Darwinism.

Skeptics who might have decried that String Theory would never hold up a decade ago have yet to see fruit being borne in 2007 with the introduction of super-atomic smashers to reveal glimpses into the amazing worlds of gravitons, super-symmetry, ect. That is the resistance that theory must tred across to gain acceptance and credibility, the same resistance Darwinism had to cut through to find its place in science a hundred years ago. Probably String Theory will be a bona fide established law of the scientific community with in 50 years without today's training wheels. This is exactly the same kind of resistance that Intelligent Design is meeting with skeptics that are trying to cast it in a bad light as some renaissance of a faith-based initiative. Where skeptics wish to exploit and attack Intelligent Design's nascent beginning findings is in the evolutionary arena only as a way to undermine its overall gathering knowledge in and outside human evolution.

More advances material sciences are welcomed, and ID's suggestive evidence will be hard to overlook in a few decades' time because science doesn't rest on incomplete controversial laurels but ultimately to unlock barely detectable truth. ID's gaining canopy of solid "circumstantial" evidence that the Universe is not just chaotic without rhyme and reason is good for competitive science itself. But if we look more fundalmentally with a green eye shade auditor's approach to the precept that life from utter wanton lifelessness couldn't have manifested itself so intelligently just on its own, we might uncover truths we have always longed to find all that based on 21st century technology, theory and science. As Man is the best representative of known certified intelligence, and there is intelligence in animated vessel that is Man, there is intelligence elsewhere outside of our own chauvinistic self-conceited view of the Universe. We'll see how far ID has developed and matured in 10 years, I'm positive ID will have gained a lot more rational scientific converts by then.

See you in the brave new future of String Theory and Intelligent Design, an adult and more deductive future!

If I can try your patience will a little bit of reading I'd like to offer 3 major exhibits from the defense's bench as Intelligent Design seems to be on trial for heresy by a single-minded prosecutor.

There are dozens of isolated cases that ID is investigating, but these three have captivated me beyond a resonable doubt and I hope it will also start asking intriguing questions in you as well.

Intelligent Design must be based on fundalmental rationality and deductive ability on the part of the inquirer. To interject faith-based creationism and even philosphy would lend crendence to skeptical claims that Intelligent Design is old wine in new bottles and a clever trojan horse faith-based psuedo-science ruse cloaked in the modern synthax of science. In fact, Intelligent Design is not hard-wired to evolution theory as its prime base, it is a broad diversified portfolio in many sciences and disciplines, and that's what skeptics do not want or fail to understand.

Creationism is an old article that would reject astronomy, cosmology, biology, earth sciences, evolution, and any other valid form of discovery mechanism in the modern world. Fundalmentalist creationism should not hold sway in the court of Intelligent Design and not have an creationist emeritus alongside; they are two seperate issues. One is of faith the other of pure deductive rationality with a growing body of work by scientists for whom a 19th century evolutionary decrees is wholly inadequate to explain the totality of everything evolutionary in the 21st century; some 150 years after Charles Darwin's pioneering treatise. Decades and even years in today's rapid buildup of scientific knowledge are enough to render entire standards and scientific hypotheses much less concrete than when they were first introduced.

Creationism has more in common with one-track old baroque mindframes that once lovingly supported flat Earthism in lieu of geography, and if given the chance due to no scientific breakthroughts would possibly claim that alchemy is the better of chemistry, magic is the better of physics, phrenology is the better of nuerology, astrology is the better of astronomy,...ecetera. In short, a creationist agenda that would commandeer and feed the acrimony of scientific materialism is not securing high ground for a new convincing postulate that is making great strides in offering a logical conclusion that Nature is inheritently intelligent, that "intelligence" behind organic and inorganic mechanisms that transitioned inanimate incoherent un-intelligent sub-atomic and atomic particles from a venue of lifelessness to a living state, and life from the ultra-simple primordial into the realm of sentient, conscious, creative ultra-complexity.

For me, "intelligence" does reside natively in the Universe as its natural abode, most visibly detectable in the area of physics and most pronounced in the progressive discovery field of String Theory.

If it is to be believed that matter and energy and the universal laws of gravity, electro-magnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces are commonly composed of infinately small strings, then if I may propose the following:

1) As such small particles that cannot react in their environment being near mass-less, then there is no evolutionary trial and error, random modification or even an accident clause, there are no chances of adaptation or natural selection in this quantum mechanic environment because they are operating in a vaccum and they're nearly immaterial (mass-less). Traditional evolutionary theory cannot apply here, and as such, strings are immutable, forever not able to change or modify. If strings exist, then they were established for a reason in the Universe' beginnings, created in symphony to give matter and energy its resonance and developed properties. This being the case, strings had to be intelligently designed outside the sphere of progressive modular buildup and alteration. They were, they are, they were the original building blocks with purpose to be the ungirding archecture and scaffolding on which matter and energy resides. They were proundly well designed, and design connotates an intelligence. There cannot be any other explanation, that is not faith, that's fact.

2.) Let's also assume atomic and sub-atomic matter is neither animated nor intelligent nor coherent to an intelligent order or that is "knows something". If you don't believe that, then you believe in Intelligent Design implicitly, but let's assume that atomic matter is perpertually dead and unconscious. Presuming then that atoms are intuitively unconscious and possess no order-making capability, what is the guidance system, the helm control of these atoms and sub-atoms to constructively manuvoer themselves to align and join with another atoms? And this new body of atoms to co-join with a larger community of atoms to the point of making elements? What is the incentive, the intuitive drive or reason for atoms to arbitrarily come together into larger and larger pools if we've decided that atoms cannot reason and have any purpose? There had to be some elemental guidance "force" or system at work, materialist science would point to a naturalistic physical process. That is a half compromising answer, when we know that atoms form the modular building blocks of life and without this large-scale Universal melding of atoms nothing would be remotely possible. It is the forceful purposeful manuvering of atomic structures and atoms together that forms the second tier after basic strings on the path to successive design. This isn't faith, this is fact.

3) In human evolution, I accept skeptically most but not all of Darwinian evolution theory. I accept natural selection, modification, alternation subject to environmental conditions. What I cannot fully accept is the sheer pell-mell randomness and raw accidental ascendancy of mankind if we are to believe Darwin's crux agrument for a common origin that all Earthly life originated from a communal primordial sludge. If we believe that all of Earth's lifeforms from insects to mammals to bacteria to the three-toed sloth to salmon share a common ancestry and heritage with humans, then that begs the definitive question of when this transitional creature or "missing link" was subject to a faster evolutionary pathway.

In other words, the proto-ancestor of humans was for millions of years on par and on equal terms in capability and thinking with the rest of the animal kingdom. It can be assumned then that the creatures that would evolve into humans was indistinguishable from the rest of the animal kingdom. At some point however, this creature that was to become human had come into a quantum leap--something that science does not deny. This quantum leap meant one of two things, being moved or transitioned onto an accelerated evolutionary track or lane that far outperformed the rest of the animal kingdom or that this transitional creature was guided or "seasoned" to march past the evolutionary milestones faster being now the possessor of a superior acumen and capability than the rest of the animal marathon field could muster. At some point there was a transition achieved, a synapse bridged or other phenamenon, science calls this the "missing link" or the "quantum leap of Man" which you scarely find an evolutionist who will dispute; and an extra quality inbued to this transitional creature allowed for its remarkable growth.

It is open to debate whether this transitional creature was "engineered", "aided" or interdicted by natural or supernatural alien forces; it would be simplistic in the extreme to write off human evolution to the muse of naturalistic equality in the animal kingdom; clearly not one species being among millions of competitors ever reached cognitive, creative and higher order consciousness exhibited by our own species. Clearly there was no "equality" when we factor in the exponential growth of humanity. That is not faith, that's fact.

There were millions of distinct species and sup-species to inhabit Earth from the genesis of life on Earth, and from all these, the odds that only one sentient, creative, self-conscious, civilization-building being that can fathom and understand art, love, beauty, truth, empirical methodology, mortality, and organization emerged while the rest did not, or even remotely come in second place is the largest compromising presumption neo-Darwinists could make. The odds that only one choice species dawned the capability to supremely drawf the landscape of Earth without peer or a close competitor using only the laws of unguided chance, random luck, trial and error, adaptability, surviveablity, and modification is an incomplete picture.

With our closet kin, our chimpanze cousins we share a 97% gene commonality, and truth has it that this extra 3% that was an epoc-making difference-maker of collossal proportions. I hope Intelligent Design harvests more fruitful knowledge of RNA and DNA to solve this baffling sphinx of why "we made it" and our closet relatives did not. It is clear, we are 97% close in proximity in genes yet seperated by a Universe. That's not faith, that's fact.

--------------------

In the end, evolutionist theory science is so dependent on neo-Darwinism as the prime exporter of scientific materialism that is has built itself up as the only must-have explanation. It is ardently defended and castled in by mainstream academia to the point of religious fervor without admitting any daylight into its questioned and glaring incompleteness. It is this very incompleteness amid other "missing links" that all gaining sciences and theories work on to bring about better improved closure to any scientific field; all science is juried and critiqued to the point of absoluteness and surety before it can become a scientific "law" something Dawinism has failed to accomplish in over 150 years. The noblest cause of science should not make a stout defense of anything, not even by a knot of Darwinist bishop-soldiers until there is "absolutely certainty" beyond a reasonable doubt and irrefuteable evidence to cement and not just assumedly paper over the yawning gaps of neo-Darwinism.

Skeptics who might have decried that String Theory would never hold up a decade ago have yet to see fruit being borne in 2007 with the introduction of super-atomic smashers to reveal glimpses into the amazing worlds of gravitons, super-symmetry, ect. That is the resistance that theory must tred across to gain acceptance and credibility, the same resistance Darwinism had to cut through to find its place in science a hundred years ago. Probably String Theory will be a bona fide established law of the scientific community with in 50 years without today's training wheels. This is exactly the same kind of resistance that Intelligent Design is meeting with skeptics that are trying to cast it in a bad light as some renaissance of a faith-based initiative. Where skeptics wish to exploit and attack Intelligent Design's nascent beginning findings is in the evolutionary arena only as a way to undermine its overall gathering knowledge in and outside human evolution.

More advances material sciences are welcomed, and ID's suggestive evidence will be hard to overlook in a few decades' time because science doesn't rest on incomplete controversial laurels but ultimately to unlock barely detectable truth. ID's gaining canopy of solid "circumstantial" evidence that the Universe is not just chaotic without rhyme and reason is good for competitive science itself. But if we look more fundalmentally with a green eye shade auditor's approach to the precept that life from utter wanton lifelessness couldn't have manifested itself so intelligently just on its own, we might uncover truths we have always longed to find all that based on 21st century technology, theory and science. As Man is the best representative of known certified intelligence, and there is intelligence in animated vessel that is Man, there is intelligence elsewhere outside of our own chauvinistic self-conceited view of the Universe. We'll see how far ID has developed and matured in 10 years, I'm positive ID will have gained a lot more rational scientific converts by then.

See you in the brave new future of String Theory and Intelligent Design, an adult and more deductive future!

Comment to your third question

. How does evolution know where to stop? The pressure to evolve is constant; therefore it is hard to understand why evolution isn't a constant. Yet sharks and turtles and insects have been around for hundreds of millions of years without apparent evolution except to diversify among their kind. These species stopped in place while others, notably hominids, kept evolving with tremendous speed, even though our primate ancestors didn't have to. The many species of monkeys which persist in original form tell us that human evolution, like the shark's, could have ended. Why didn't it?

Body palns evolve in response to environmental stimuli; once a body plan is established that is successful at dealing with the particular environment in which it exists, there is no pressure to change the body plan unless there is some fundamental change in the environment. the ocean is a relatively invariant environment, hence the reason different species of sharks look very similar across geological eons. Once this successful body plan was established it made it very difficult for other species to fill the same niche. Same for fish. Shark's bodies are optimized to move through water; this constant means that the same streamling is observed time and time again.

Primates on the other hand are a relatively recent variation on the mammalian body plan. Human evolution has been driven by changes in the African climate; monkeys that exist today are not necessarily the same species that existed in the past; for example there are multiple chimpanzee species in existence today, separated by geography. That there were organisms in the past that we call "monkeys" doesn't mean that they are the same species as those that exist today.
Ditto for humans, ie the genus Homo, of which there have been multiple species (Neanderthal, erectus, habilis, australopithecus) over the last two million years.

You are getting caught up on semantics.

Damian McColl, Ph.D

Comment to your first question

1. How does nature take creative leaps? In the fossil record there are repeated gaps that no "missing link" can fill. The most glaring is the leap by which inorganic molecules turned into DNA. For billions of years after the Big Bang, no other molecule replicated itself. No other molecule was remotely as complicated. No other molecule has the capacity to string billions of pieces of information that remain self-sustaining despite countless transformations into all the life forms that DNA has produced.

Regarding major transitions, we know that mutations in certain body pattern genes, such as the Hox genes, can cause major changes in body patterns. The scientific literature is full of this. Recently there has been an outstanding set of discoveries in the evolution of whales, including transitional fossils that have remenant back limbs,

Regarding DNA, there is nothing magical about it. It turns out that the base pairs, A with T and C with G, are highly stable chemically. There are numerous other ways to pair them but they are less stable chemically. Hence the base pairs that we see in DNA are the most chemically stable, exactly what you want if you want to store information. Also, many of the organic precursors can be found in the interstellar medium so the early Earth was probably ripe with the precursors of these molecules. DNA like all things started simple. We also know that other nucleic acids like RNA can also perform enzymatic reactions and these molecules don't have to be that complex. There are many questions related to this issue yet to be answered but we will find the answer in natural processes, not some hoped for intelligence.

Damian McColl, Ph.D

Comment with regard to your 4th point

4. Evolutionary biology is stuck with regard to simultaneous mutations. One kind of primordial skin cell, for example, mutated into scales, fur, and feathers. These are hugely different adaptations, and each is tremendously complex. How could one kind of cell take three different routs purely at random?

It didn't. These mutations did not occur in the same cell in one organism. The different lineages are separated by millions of years in time. Scales developed first in fish; one group of fish (lungfish) developed limbs that allowed them to crawl from the oceans opening new territories and leading to the development of tetrapod amphibians; subsequently reptiles developed from these organisms and then completely different lineages of reptiles developed feathers (bird-like dinosaurs as have been discovered in China) and fur (early mammal like reptiles). These changes happened in completely different species spread over millions of years, not simultaneously.

Comment to point 5. If design doesn't imply intelligence, why are we so intelligent? The human body is composed of cells that evolved from one-celled blue-green algae, yet that algae is still around. Why did DNA pursue the path of greater and greater intelligence when it could have perfectly survived in one-celled plants and animals, as in fact it did?

Again, same as the monkeys, the algae that exist today are not the same species that existed in the past. And it wasn't blue-green algae; that might have been the case for plants but not animals which came from a completely different eukaryotic lineage.

As for our intelligence, it has a survival advantage and may reflect the significant changes in climate, particularly the ice ages, that have occurred during the last two million years. But the development of intelligence is a very quirky thing; consider the dinosaurs; after 120 million years on Earth they did not develop anything like our intelligence. Yet they were able to survive and that is all that matters.

DNA doesn't care about what it is in; all that matters is the organism survives. If the traits of the organism, dictated by its genes ie the DNA, are useful in the environment in which it exists, it survives. Otherwise it dies. You need to stop thinking that it has some choice in this; it doesn't.

Comment to point 12. Finally, why are life forms beautiful? Beauty is everywhere in Nature, yet it serves no obvious purpose. Once a bird of paradise has evolved its incredibly gorgeous plumage, we can say that it is useful to attract mates. But doesn't it also attract predators, for we simultaneously say that camouflaged creatures like the chameleon survive by not being conspicuous. In other words, exact opposites are rationalized by the same logic. This is no logic at all. Non-beautiful creatures have survived for millions of years, so have gorgeous ones. The notion that this is random seems weak on the face of it.

Each organism evolves in response to the environment in which it lives. Yes birds of paradise might attract predators but perhaps there are none able to catch it in their particular environment. Chameleons hide themselves so that their prey, insects, cannot see them,not so that a predator cannot see the chameleon.

Look for the underlying complexity in these issues; each organism is a response to its particular environment.

Beauty is a completely arbitrary notion, based on our own limited biological perceptions. Cane toads don't look very pretty to us, but maybe they look good to other cane toads.

Deepak,

Thanks for getting out this url, "intentblog" last night. I have enjoyed all the comments here and on Larry King. Larry is such a good interviewer. His does a great job at being objective with such a debatable subject as to this intelligent design. Really it is all very simple as you described, "your awareness or consciousness being aware of being aware or being conscious of being conscious". I believe is how you put it. These kinds of debates will just continue the evolvement of our conscious. I have found limited opportunities to have any real discussions along these lines. There are still so many of us who would rather just believe what the bible says like I was just a few years ago. Though I see this forum as a wakening up of our conscious to acknowledge the observable. Much of what was hidden is now being explored with DNA. This area is highly contested by those who want to protect their beliefs in the metaphysical. If faith based living is more conducive to a happy controlled life. Then there will be those who would be willing to settle in a belief. Fortunately, our conscious will continue to expand there is no stopping it. The political Evangelical groups who support our current administration will eventually observe how wrong we were to stir up such horrific hatred towards Americans and those who would disrupt their beliefs in Islam. It is like what the intelligent design group is doing with the Christian belief. Eventually, our conscious will evolve to see and observe that our beliefs are contradictory to our true self. Our true self has the capacity to tap into an intelligence that has created the universe.

Godspeed,

John Holloway

Looks like a battle for the control of reality.

The finite players trying to maintain the old game, and the infinite players moving in.

What you don't realize is you are a part of this.

http://www.infiniteplaythemovie.com/

Sorry to break up the love fest, but Mr. Chopra’s ignorant drivel has been comprehensively debunked by an actual scientist – ie someone who actually knows something about this subject.

It's here: http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/longcomments/moonbat_anti_evolutionist_deepak_chopra/

It seems to me that regardless of how many different points of view we have for looking at the same thing, the thing exists simply as it is. Appreciative inquiry is valuable for understanding and understanding creates a roadmap for interacting with the world around us. The challenge is that understanding varies depending on how a person sees himself or herself. If we are that, then in striving for ego survival we try to insist that everyone else is that, too. That's when inquiry becomes a tool for disharmony; it detracts from simply having the elegant experience of "being." Opinions are merely opinions -- they are unique to the individual and inform the world about how the individual sees herself or himself. But, opinion (or individual interpretation of religious texts or scientific theory and research) won't change the way that individual was created.

The entire Universe is one thinking brain, and you live in this brain.

http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/body.html

http://hiddenmeanings.com/brain.html

http://hiddenmeanings.com/electricone.html

danny

As a retired Texas HS Science Teacher,I found no problem with my students if questioned, just answering that I believe that a "God" exists. They (and their parents and the school board) seem to be happy with that simple statement. Whether it is a fact or not, I have never been asked that question.
I wrote an entire book to send, but think I,ll just say that a lot of people are ignorant about sciences(particularly chemistry) and the very tenents of their own religion; not to mention other religions. I really would like to see our students challenged with more philosophical academics rather than repeat the same old atomic theory from grade 1-12. Humph and etc. CSR

Fascinating debate! For an additional viewpoint I offer the following book:
Narby, J. (1999). The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the origins of knowledge. Tarcher/Putman.
Narby presents anthropological and biomolecular perspectives that are quite interesting.

To the Site Manager:

Please open discussion threads by topic...there are too many threads of thought here that could be more organized...

To Deepak:
Wonderful discussion. If intent is pure and everyone here is just thrilled to be in the field of infinite possibilities, why do we need to do anything at all.. just sit and enjoy the field of infinite possibilities.... no need to work..

I'm afraid there's no nice way to say this, you're all fucking mentalists.

Oh and 90% of what you said has already been refuted more times than I care to remember, you P.R.A.T.T.

Re read Cappy's post. He covers all your points in great detail. Biology is complex, and based on chemistry, which is also complex. Details MATTER. You cannot understand these things from a distance. There are many mysteries, but evolution is such a prooven tool to those that use it (biologists, medical scientists and many others), they react passionately to objections and misunderstandings from the ignorant.
It is hubris to assume you can understand completely, then critisize the conclusions of specialists who have spent their entire lives looking at the detailed inner workings of life.
And how's your Math? Have you bothered to learn Gods own language?
Wisdom starts with the right questions, just make sure you follow through with research.
I recommend "The Touchstone of Life" to understand how life started from inanimate molecules.

It's not perfect, but it is very good, and it carefully and concisely draws some important distinctions.

Thank you for posting it!

Why are we obsessed with intelligence? Life doesn't care about intelligence. Life cares about survival. Intelligence is only one adaptive advantage. There is also Mobility, Strength, Simplicity, Beauty, Reproductive Power, Sheer Numbers, or the magical chemistry to be able to split the water molecule and make your own food (Plants). Perhaps plants are the smartest. We haven't figured out how they split the water molecule in photosynthesis! Namaste

Life cannot be understood in a two dimensional way, merely from the outside, through reason, logic, theories, beliefs, empty, lifeless shapes. Life can be understood only when experienced, lived. This is why "those who know need not proof. And no proof can be enough for those who do not know".

So in our humanity, there are extremely frustrating situations, where humans cannot meet and unite, where some discussions are hopeless and can even end into wars if one or both participants have a selfish interest and want to impose themselves by violence. Becaus