World Citizenship is a state of mind and i think we can achieve it without any formal recognition by any government. All these political barriers and wars only express the conflicts within our mind.

Peace and Happiness.

Dear Nandita,

Before going into, the questions raised,

I would like to compliment you, on your stunning looks, as we would say in Poland, one he..heaven of an applepie! ;)

Anyway, back to the topics,
I myself have a very similiar background, though
in my case polish and living in the netherlands
(I like to call it Neverland, due to cultural differences, wich for a polish are, as from..;)

´The first and foremost being, why should I have to be a citizen of a country- why can’t I just be a citizen of the world?´

- good point, my dear, the latter I would say, or to make an analogy with spirit, unbound,
but from a legal point of view, and or, worst case scenario, where are your (civil or social)
rights better protected? in a stable legal climate, growth and contribution, are best served,

´I find it hard to have to decide as to why I have to belong to a particular country and be labeled as an Indian or American?´
- in my case, or to illustrated with a joke,
If a person is born in (central) Africa,
this person is most likely to stay black for the rest of his life, (unless your name is Michael Jackson.., but then again, he wasn´t born in africa..;)
And so in my case, polish applepie I love best,
where ever I go, that and pierogi, barsc..mmm..jammie! (very good soup..;)
But now seriously, eventhough, wherever I hang my
hat (or cap) is home, but in the heart, with wich people do you feel the warmest connextion?

´A very relevant but boring issue concerned with Citizenship is that of Patriotism.´

That is an old (historical)paradigm, created by the people in power, or indoctrination, for the purpose of cohersion, and ´persuasion´,

The new paradigm should be,
I feel connexted and solidiair with every ´spiritual being having an human experience´,

´How difficult or easy is to be a citizen of the world?´

Eventhough for home sickness, it was never easier, than this very moment in time, with some
tnx for the lovely invention called internet,
(or should we call it intranet nowadays...;)

Love, Passion, and some good spiritual vibrations, from a polish alien in a legal fairyland called Never eeuhh Netherlands ;)

Nandita, in my opinion, patriotism is the word used by right wingers to legitimize their otherwise criminal agenda. A true patiotic feeling can be shown only in action not by waving the flags, having bumper stickers or claiming openly about it.

Just to clarify, I don't associate patriotism to any single country. I should have made it clearl. By "being patriotic", I mean "patriotic to the humanity".

´patriotism is the word used by right wingers to legitimize their otherwise criminal agenda.´

haha,
great one, Krish!
The way I act out my patriotism,
is wherever I go, and meet, I love to give,
some historical or cultural gifts from the best
Polish artists or authors has to offer,

www.adamzamoyski.com/
here, for you ;)

love, passion,

´I mean "patriotic to the humanity".´

true, that!
but, at the same time, you can be proud of your
cultural, historical, religious and or spiritual heritage,

Love,

What does it take to be a citizen of the world?

a restless mind, astute curiosity and deep respect for the diversity of cultures, tolerance, adaptability, knowledge of foreign languages, ability to savour all facets of life.

As for patriotism, the word has been abused in so many ways that it should be handled with care - in its truest sense, though, it is said to be equal to deep love for one´s own heritage combined with the aspiration to preserve it in safety for the common good.

Nandita,
It is always good to be nice to everyone and faithful citizen of world, I would love to do it. However something in me saying “No” you should be faithful to yourself first then family and then country (I am atheist so big "NO" to religion).

So Bottomline is you should be selfish and only country in the world where you see people like me being encouraged is USA that is why I am proud of being self centered, ignorant, wealthy American then worrying about whole world and doing nothing for myself kinda "Citizen Of World".

Jignesh Proud Republican

Interesting post, Nandita. I always enjoy your posts, and am very much looking forward to watching Parzania.

I also hope that your change of citizenship works well for you. While there few nation-states in the world (and none in "The West") that I would be more loathe to live in than the US, I wish you well.

As for patriotism, I am 100% in agreement with George Bernard Shaw, who described it as "a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy". It is "the last refuge to which scoundrels cling". Einstein is credited with saying words to the effect that "nationalism is an infantile disease, the measles of humanity". All such sentiments resonate with me. There is very little I truly hate in this world, but the twin evils of patriotism and nationalism are very near the top of my list. Loving the land of one's birth is not the same as worshipping the nation-state governing that land. The one is natural and understandable, an expression of a need for "home", the other is illogical and fosters extremism and bigotry.

My Dad was born in Meerut, but his home was in Quetta and his school was in Murree, all before Partition. Despite the fact that neither India (भारत गणराज्य), nor Pakistan existed at the time, I have been told that I ought not apply for a PIO card because my Dad is Pakistani not Indian. That is a mild example of the sort of fuzzy thinking and narrowmindedness fostered by patriotism. The tragedy of the Kashmir quake shows that the lethal consequences of the absurdity that is patriotism are not solely caused by wars. When coupled with religion, it's a hate-inducing cocktail without equal, but for many people, patriotism IS their religion anyway. So for me, the words of Seneca that I use as a signature in almost every web forum I visit are an expression of one of the few fundas of my life:

Non sum uni angulo natus; patria nea totus hic est mundus.

To people of any passport, peace and long life.

Damn! Obviously being a fantatic supranationalist make me a lazy moron who can't be bothered to read posts before replying to them. Despite reading your post several times, I still thought it was YOU taking up US citizenship. My apologies.

Diluting the notion of citizenship is a pipe dream. Pushing for it is a misplaced priority. We have so many other pressing matters to first improve on, before touching something as esoteric as this.

Religious persecution and bigtory, racism, environmental abuse, resource hoarding and acute wealth disparities are so much more significant. If major nations and races of people come to terms with these, the citizenship issue will automatically become moot.

If one is not happy with the US, there is no need to opt to be its citizen. Apart from voting rights, working on sensitive projects, working for the US government, and running for public office, there are marginal advantages in embracing US citizenship compared to permanent residency. If there is resistance to call oneself an American, one should choose to remain a permanent resident. The American immigration system is both unique and generous in the rights it accords to permanent residents, who do not affirm to the constitution of the US. If you don't like what the US consitution represents, don't become a US citizen. Vehemently opposing Bush and the war on Iraq are completely legitimate actions, even for an aspiring citizen.

If you opt for citizenship and then show your allegiance to a sports team from your country of origin, it is no crime. Rooting for a sports team is an emotional thing, not a patriotic duty. No one will demean you if you support a team opposing the US in the US anymore than a rival fan of a professional team in home team territory. Burning US flags or abusing US icons is not going to get you any support, and rightly so. Naturally, no country will tolerate that on its own land. When China played the US in women's soccer, numerous Chinese citizens rooted openly and forcefully for their team. There wasn't any bad blood beyond the stadium, and people generally understood.

But if you opt for citizenship and can't call yourself a proud citizen, you will be selfish and insincere to accept it in the first place. A proud citizen does not mean support for the ways of either the majority or the powerbrokers. It means absolute belief in the constitution and the processes in law to amend it.

Regarding hanging Pakistani flags and celebrating an Indian cricket loss against Pakistan, what do you expect? The countries have fought three wars and every effort at peace is tenuous at best, much like watching two hedgehogs mate. In the light of that, supporting an alien nation in something so emotional is complete foolhardiness.

I totally agree that in principle, the rights of any peaceful demonstrators should be protected, come what may. But strectched to the absurd, this is asking for idealism. A scantily clad woman has all the right in the world to be walking alone at midnight in a dark alley and not be touched or abused. No one actively fights for these rights because you are only challenging human weakness and limitations. There are more worthy battles to fight of everyday relevance where women end up being abused, assaulted and ill treated. Also, the laws in most countries decry obvious or blatant entrapment.

For all else that is messed up with the US, the permanent residency to citizenship path is far from tortuous and liberal. This does not extend to the double standards that are ripe in getting permanent residency, though. And the ability of the individual to assert his or her rights under the US constitution, once a citizen, are remarkable. Bush's enemy combatant nonsense is a clear contardiction to what I said and time will expose his short sighted and parochial stupidity.

"Centuries ago, when people were free to roam and travel the world, invade or settle as they pleased, were the role of governments any different? People paid taxes and the rulers provided a safe and free environment for its people to coexist".

The history you see, on a global scale, is very very different from my view. You can't add "invade or settle" in the same sentence like there isn't a world of difference! How many cultures and people allowed peaceful influx and settling without forcing the immigrants to change their religion. Even if they were prepared to that was most often inadequate.

With all the evils and wrongs in our society and world, *collectively*, we are at a point when acceptance and tolerance is at its maximum. The picture no doubt sucks, but is still ahead of where we were in the past. 2 of the world's great religions are mired in violence and death as a result of intolerance. The most cerebral one arose when the proponent was crushed by the futility of war and subjugation.

Our collective past as a whole is an embarassment. We owe it to ourselves to learn the lessons from therein and improve our lot. Lamenting about strict delineation of citizenship is putting the cart before the horse.

I thought I should keep quiet when people from right put forward their views. But this is Hilarious.

"No one will demean you if you support a team opposing the US in the US anymore than a rival fan of a professional team in home team territory."

"When China played the US in women's soccer, numerous Chinese citizens rooted openly and forcefully for their team. There wasn't any bad blood beyond the stadium, and people generally understood."

"Regarding hanging Pakistani flags and celebrating an Indian cricket loss against Pakistan, what do you expect? The countries have fought three wars and every effort at peace is tenuous at best, much like watching two hedgehogs mate. In the light of that, supporting an alien nation in something so emotional is complete foolhardiness."

Thanks for agreeing, Krish. When the US fights 3 wars with China in 50 years, and the US people are mature to tolerate loud and blatant opposing support from naturalized Chinese on their soil, we both will eat crow.

Thanks A.K. for accepting that the acts of Hindutva forces and their supporters are immature. Thatz my point. Lack of maturity and civility.

A.K.

I just finished reading your post and I must say that I had a rough time following your logic (or is that illogic?).

The author, in my opinion, is far more insightful and appears to be of superior intelligence, and has expressed some great points which aren't likely to be garnered by those of lesser intelligence.

There was a time in history when the whole world was man's domain where he was free to roam and settle unimpeded, anywhere he wanted. But then came divisions of land, the organization governments and then nationalities, a very divisive reality, so say the least. Who are the ones who have created this state of affairs? It is us, of course.

I am afraid, because of time and space constraints, I cannot go beyond a preface of this 'book'.

To cut to the chase, I can clearly see where Nandita is coming from. I admire her great intelligence and visceral courage to touch on the tip of the iceberg of some profound thoughts. A.K., nothing personal, though you have touched on many good points, your story seems badly lacking in logic and substance; it's more like babble to me.

You go, Nandita.

Rog.

ahhh.....one globe, one people....what a beautiful thought :)

nice to see you posting Nandita

" I am told that the Muslims in India are unpatriotic because they hang Pakistani Flags or burst fire crackers when India loses in a cricket match"

let us first analyse why muslims support pakistan.they support it not because their ancestors have lived there but because pakistan was formed on the basis of islam.
they support it because it is an islamic nation which was formed for all the muslims of undivided india.for muslims it is the religion which comes first.

when you talk abt indians living in america they support india because of their ancestral ties.they dont support india because of their religion.

nandita das it is unfortunate that unknowingly ppl like you have mouth piece of muslims.

just little piece of unwanted advice for you,if you really want to analyse a muslim mind then please read QURAN.

and then come and write on intentblog.

" as I qualify to be an American Citizen, I ponder the pros and cons of taking one step towards giving up a citizenship of one country"

how about living in saudi arabia??ppl like you can write anything against america but i have never heard "intellectuals" like you writing on conditions/freedom of women in saudi arabia.

what are your views on condition of women in arabia.

one little piece of information.rules of saudi arabia are taken from quranic teachings.

Hello Nandita Das and Sachin....Nice opposing points I thought.

Sachin...This is another Sachin who has been on Chopra.com for almost 4yrs now. I wanted to write here so that some very few who have known me well don't get confused by the same name.

You do write with vigour as I see, something which I too write with. You open up the hypocrisy quite well I thought. May I know where are u from and where do you live now. I'm originally from Nasik near Mumbai, having lived in western countries for a while, am back now in India.

I've been away for quite a while now from both the boards, as I was just browsing some of the posts, it looked interesting to read Nandita's and your post and other views too.

Truly...Sachin Mukhedkar

I would be tremendously presumptuous if I were to state that I can be fair in a dispute involving my family and my neighbour's, that I am not automatically biased as a result of my special relationship with one. Extend this bias to your locality, your city, your state, your country, your continent, your religion, your cultural and the innumerable social ties that we are born with and acquire!

After spending a very enjoyable 7 years in the US, one of the reasons I returned to India, was that I could never be an American patriot.

When one talks of citizenship, explicitly or implicitly, there is an oath of allegiance that each citizen takes. In the best interests of my country, I can oppose a war that my country chooses to wage, but I can never wish for the defeat of my country in the war. I cannot, on the one hand, live off the fruits that my country offers and pray for its downfall. This thought must transcend political, ideological or religious allegiances.

Michael Moore is an American patriot. Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) is not.

Hence, the thought of an American citizen of Indian descent rooting for the Indian team playing against the US, or a Muslim citizen of India rooting for Pakistan playing against India, even in a game, is abhorrent.

"Nationalism is our form of incest. It is our idolatory.And patiotism is its cult" Erich Fromm "Nationalism is an infantile disease;it is the measles of humanity love deepak

"Vasudev Kutumbukam" the world is my family. Ancient vedic expression (By the way the 2nd qoute above about Natonalism being an infantile disease is from Einstein) love deepak

"The Highest Thought is always that thought which contains joy.
The Clearest Words are those words which contain truth.
The Grandest Feeling is that feeling which you call love."

Neale D. Walsh, CwG,

What would love do now?

That´s one he..heaven of a Code of Conduct!
in any religion, cult, or was it politics..?
law? or (mass) psychology?

Love, passion, RAS,
and some good spiritual vibrations

If Indians anywhere support India, it is ancestry and if muslims support Pakistan (which was part of their country till 50+ years back), it is treachery. This is what I call hypocrisy. Why can't people look outside the narrow setting. If I (born in the hindu religion in India) support the Pakistan team for their game, I am anti hindu pseudo secular. Why do you have to associate everything with religion or country. Why can't you raise above all these. I am just wondering how different are you guys when it comes to divisivness from the fanatic mullahs of islamic world and fanatic evangelicals of christianity. You are one and the same. Just because you are from Hinduism doesn't put you at a higher pedestal.

Nandita,

As someone said above, world citizenship is a state of mind. I can imagine myself as belonging to the entire world, this Big Blue planet. And it's a positive idea.

But it needn't conflict with what's practical, which is that people like to be governed by laws that safeguard their particular values and beliefs, which are different for different people and cultures.

Some like democracy, some monarchy, some theocracy, some communism.

And that's why we belong to nations with borders, and carry passports.

Nationalism doesn't have to be a negative force. It can protect cultures from invasion by providing a binding identity. India which lacked nationalism in the past, would have benefitted from this by being saved Muslim and Britism imperialism, like Thailand was.

smiles to Marek, and to good spiritual vibrations! To be a citizen of the world, as Sunil mentions - is a state of mind - and can be a Reality in form, as well.

It's not just imagination, we really do belong to/in this "Big Blue Planet".

I have learned from experience, that structure and rules are 'necessary' for families, communities, and apparently - governments!

Beyond that, within the environment and place and family we are born into - it is up to each of us, as individuals - to seek, experience and live Truth. No nationalism, patriotism, or eogtism need interfere with this process! But ..... often, it does. :(

"The Clearest Words are those words which contain truth." That is a great thought! Thanks for the quote, Marek!

The clearest actions are Truth. Clear awareness, to rise above the opposites, will show you - its so clear and beautiful, pristine! You can rest comfortably there!

Blessings,
~~ K

I got US citizenship simply because it is a nuisance to travel with an Indian passport. I pay taxes to the US govt. in return for this favor and pretty much consider myself quits. On an emotional level, I've always considered myself to be Indian. It's not possible to be a citizen of the world unless your heart is made of stone and you are completely incapable of any special feelings for places special to you.

If Indian Muslims are rejoicing when India loses to Pakistan, I definitely think that is unpatriotic and disgusting. I do not believe this is something natural though. I bet this is something organized by their madrassas or mosques. The counterexamples about the US parades are inapt. Hey, in England and Italy you can be lynched while crossing the street for simply wearing the colors of the wrong team!

Kris,
Just trying to understand....

u mean to say that when muslims in H'bad (AP)or any other place for that matter, support pakistan in a match its because 50 yrs back Pak was part of India and religion had nuthing to do with it....

u... kidding right

"I am just wondering how different are you guys when it comes to divisiveness from the fanatic mullahs of Islamic world and fanatic evangelicals of Christianity. You are one and the same. Just because you are from Hinduism doesn't put you at a higher pedestal."

And why are you the first one ...ok may be second to Nandita to start YELLING about us/ppl being Hindu fanatics as soon as someone mentions/supports something about India.

'Hypocrisy' my friend u should not even use that word...

As Vish rightly mentioned Citizenship comes with not only all rights but some duties as well...

As for the question about being a global citizen.....well it’s a real nice though ...but how about proving urself to be a worthy citizen of one nation first and then take it from there ....lets not bite more than we can chew

I have this ´custom´ to Spamm people´s blogs first, and Google them later..haha, like the heck I knew who Shekhar was, nor miss or misses..? Nandita Das?, for that matter,
(I just wanted to impress a girl by spamming
Deepak´s SynchroDestiny Blog, honest!)
(little good did that do me, lousy Karma with Dutch ladies what can I say..;)
ah well,
´if we share with joy, lightheartedness and love..´ (law of giving..;),

Anyway, dear, I´m gonna have to see a movie of
yours, and Shekhar too, while I´m at it,
I´m very curious, and looking forward,

Love, passion, and some good spiritual vibes,
Ps. can´t help myself, sue me..;) but, can you..
bake..an..homemade..applepie...? ;)

Why do I ask..?, you ask?

well, miss,
to transcend,
this,
topic,
to something very close,
to home,
warm,
or was it heart..?
or sweet..
like an applepie..
or was it humanity? without borders..?
or does love check in with customs?
or has to wait on visa´s..?

right,
I´m done,

With love, passion, and some good spiritual vibes,
;)
Leela transcends moral codes, and for many people that's a big problem. They cling to the dualistic world because it rigidly dictates right and wrong, or was it nationalism and patriotism..? hummn..
Ps. http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/d_j_jazzy_jeff_the_fresh_prince/summertime.html

~A or whoever you are,

I am not kidding. The people on the other side of the border were part of this society till 50 years back. It is the politicians who separated them. What is wrong if they have some sort of "affiliation" with the other side of the border. Maybe they have their brothers there, their uncles and aunts there. They might feel strongly about it. There is nothing wrong in taking legal actions on people who stay in India and kill or injure Indian people. Take them to task. I am in full support of such actions. But why should you take them to task or hate them or brand them terrorists just because he/she supported Pakistan in a cricket match? How is it different from Indians who had immigrated to US and UK and got the citizenship of these countries and then support India in any issue (including sports) between US and India or UK and India. If this is ok, their support for Pakistan cricket team is also ok. In fact, I have supported some Pakistan cricket teams and Players over Indian cricket teams and players many times. It doesn't mean I am a terrorist conspiring with Pakistan to attack India. It is just a game and you support a team that you like. Thatz all. You cannot call someone as a pro Pakistan terrorists just because they support Pakistan cricket team and holds their flag. When India played the world cup in South Africa, I saw many non Indians waving Indian flag and wearing Indian uniform while supporting India. It doesn't mean they are terrorists conspiring with India to attack their home country. Come on guys, grow up.

~A or whoever it is said

"As for the question about being a global citizen.....well it’s a real nice though ...but how about proving urself to be a worthy citizen of one nation first and then take it from there ....lets not bite more than we can chew"

All the people who jump at me when I call them right wingers explain it to me how the above statement, infering that being the worthy citizen of India means opposing muslims who support Pakistan in a cricket match, is different from the statements made by right wingers in US which say that anyone who is opposed to Iraq war as unpatriotic.

Sachin,

Some years ago, on one of my several visits to London, one of my favorite cities in the world, I opted to go Lord's, the home of cricket, in St. John's Woods, to watch a Test match between England and India.

On that 1990 Indian team was a young phenom named Sachin Tendulkar (18 years old). This youngman impressed me as a gifted and great up-and-coming Indian national cricket talent. So, I decided that, from time to time, I shall keep an eye on his progress in cricket. The last time I read about him, if I recall correctly, he had amassed in excess of ten thousand Test runs, which, some of my Indian friends tell me, is a big deal. They stress that it's like hitting 700 home runs in major league baseball, or scoring 800 goals in the NHL.

My question is: is your blog name a play on the name of this Indian cricket star?

Regards,

Ron.

Dear Krish,

Before you rave and rant while reacting to a post, you probably should read and comprehend the post!

You have a choice of living in the US or India as a citizen of any other country. You have some inconveniences as a price to pay.

But if you want to take the oath of citizenship of a country, have some dignity and be true to the oath.

I do not agree with Divya who feels she has the right to be unpatriotic just becoz she pays taxes. And let us not confuse citizenship with culture and religion. You can be a US citizen and remain culturally or religiously Hindu. You can be an Indian citizen and be culturally or religiously Muslim. That right is granted to you by both these countries and reasonably protected too.

Krish, while I agree that it's not fair to the adopted countries when immigrants cheer their native countries when playing against their adopted countries and they shouldn't do this, the India-Pakistan situation is just completely different.

Pakistan is an Islamic country created by partitioning India, on the basis that Muslims are a separate nation and cannot live with people of other religions. In 1947, Muslims had a chance to go to these countries expressly created for them. So, when they cheer Pakistan on the basis of their religious loyalties, there's something being said. That while they live in secular India, they support the Islamic country created out of India.

And that's what probably bothers people. It doesn't bother me since there's nothing surprising in such behavior.

I already know that most Muslims strive for an Islamic Shariah state in due time, and that's why they're living in India even after Partition: for the next Direct Action Day. I'm just hoping India doesn't fall for this thing again. It needs to remain a free country for other religions of the subcontinent like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, what-have-you. These would be endangered in an Islamic country a la Pakistan/Bangladesh.

Now, I didn't want to drag this discussion down the same path we've gone before, but thought I should point out why Muslims cheering for Pakistan has certain connotations that are absent in the India-US equation.

Divya, surely being a US citizen means much more to you than just travelling convenience. If so, that's sad. Now I'm not preaching patriotism at you. I'm just surprised that you wouldn't feel the slightest bit of affection and love for the country you live in, the freedom, rights and life it gives you. Not even the travelling convenience, by virtue of the power and might of your country?

Of course, you're Indian in sentiment, but why should that mean you can't have some American in you as well? In fact, your posts convey a lot of Americanism to me, frank forthrightness, for instance.

I lived in the US too, so I can make out who's Americanized and who isn't :). And even on my work visa, I loved the country, the cleanliness, the unbelievable equality among classes and more. Lots of things to dislike, but lots of things to love and be proud of too! Come on, I think you're just being stubborn, hehe :).

Hi Nandita,
what a treat to read your thoughts, they are just like I imagined(judged?), smart, probing, questioning and thought provoking.. of course insightful too.
here are my two cents.. I have had a heart wrenching experience obtaining(or rather TRYING) the Citizenship/Green card of USA,courtesy of the company I worked for(it basically shut shop while the process was in the middle and I had no option but to come back to India..or risk the chances of being illegal, I chose to be back)
First of all, you ARE going for it, I mean you have already done the paperwork, time has elapsed since and I think what you are waiting for is probably nothing but just administration work, .. SO.. its too late for you to ponder, dont you think?
I find it amusing, that we as people talk of a utopian and an ideal way of living when we are in a better position, but we THINK of an ideal worl when we are down, we dont think out aloud when we are down, like in your case, MAYBE you did not think of "Should I really seek citizenship of another country(USA in this case)?" I am not judging here, just expressing myself, isnt the purpose of blogs exactly that?
Citizen of the world, I am sure.. EVERY person who has travelled, or wants to travel, but has faced the hassles that come with it, Visas, fees, documentation,, etc MUST have thought what you have thought/said,
I myself have thought in the same lines, what was it like before there were countries, before there were governments?How cool it must have been then?, I could just tell my friend"Hey I find it very warm here, I am going to xxxx for a while".. no questions asked,
you couldnt have put it more aptly, when you said,"in a world which is coming closer technologically.but the gap is widening ideologically", Absolutely, we are living in a world where technology has brought us to a stage where there cant be any boundaries, for ex, the blog of the soldier in the Iraq war,we have at our fingertips information which, a few years was unthinkable.

very relevant but boring issue concerned with Citizenship is that of Patriotism. Even as being an Indian, I am told that the Muslims in India are unpatriotic because they hang Pakistani Flags or burst fire crackers when India loses in a cricket match; so if I argue in their favor- I am unpatriotic. If this logic were to hold, then all Indians who march down Madison Avenue with Indian Flags on August 15th, in spite of being American Citizens should be unpatriotic. Every Indian watching a match at Lords who cheers for the men in blue in a match against England is unpatriotic; every American who points a finger at the invasion of Iraq are unpatriotic... the list goes on. Quite honestly,

Patriotism--I am a little surprised and disappointed that you have brought in such a trivial example as a cricket game and a bunch of youngsters, what you were(i think) refferring to is the freedom of expression and right to do what an individual feels is right for him/her.
The Indians marching down Madison Avenue, will never be considered unpatriotic by any Indian, but hard core right wing, republicans? yes, they would look down upon the "brown skinned curry eating, loud obnoxious Indians".

And Nandita, you coudnt have ended your post with a more cliched line.."I think patriotism is nothing but luxury the rich can afford, a value middle class is forced to follow and an ideology the poor are clueless about."!!

just one more question, why USA? why not France? why not UK? or any other country?, most of my friends(American) are looking to get citizenship in other countries, one of my friend, she being of Irish descent, is fighting tooth and nail to get Irish citizenship, Thanks to Bush and his tyranny,many of my friends shudder at thought of being called "those Americans"...
take care and good luck
Shy

Hello Ron.....I'm not quite sure to which Sachin you addressed, perhaps was a question to both in general....don't know.

It got into cricket with the legend of the Indian cricket team coming into discussion, I thought will just share a few thoughts. I'm Myself a Big fan of Sachin Tendulkar, and it's a lucky coincidence I consider that my name is the same as his. My fondest friend's name is Dr.Deepak and whenever I call him Deepak, it reminds me of my Adorable Guru Deepak Chopra.

Just names, and there are 1000's of people with name Deepak and Sachin, just like 1000's of James and Martin in the western countries. Sachin Mukhedkar is my real name, I'm myself curious to know who is this other Sachin and that's why asked him a couple of questions and also to clarify some confusion which could arise in other readers who have known me becoz of this.
Love...Sachin

Sachin Mukhedkar,

Why are so wary that the 'other Sachin' might create some confusion (read, unwanted thoughts might be ascribed to you by mistake & your reputation might be at stake)amongst a few regular individuals (say from chopra.com)?:)

Relax, Ron/Alex/David/Marks/Deepak et al won't shout at you for the other Sachin being so unpretentiously patriotic!:)

Cheers! (& now don't ask my real name;-) 'cause what's in a name buddy, anyway? Here you are what you write!

Nandita,

Think of the possibility of a Holloywood actress trying to get citizenship of India:-)
I know, almost all (ok, majority) of the celebrities (or, wannnbe celebrities)in India try to acquire US citizenship.

Having seen that part of the planet (& having lived & worked there for years), I don't know what EXTRA you are going to achieve by US citizenship. (In fact by losing touch with the mainstream Bollywood, you might lose. Unless Shekhar is going to cast you in a Hollywood crossover movie:) Hey, but he lives in Mumbai!

Rather, the question is, what you would have lost had you not taken US citizenship?

Of course, these things are very personal, but just wanted to know your thought process.
Sorry, if I hurt your feelings!
Cheers & Happy Diwali!!

Nandita: You all cause my mind to want to reach even further than being a global citizen--to that of a "universal spiritual citizen!"

You know--where we are finally at a place where it is not even second nature anymore to take for granted the notion of the US Constitution and The Bill of Rights---about those "God-given" unalienable and inalienable rights.....

....those universal rights that we, since we didn't create ourselves or each other (for those who are certain they created their children, and were created by their parents, then I ask "why did your parents pick the specific genetic code they did--to fashion "you" from????).

But....back to the point--if "our creator" gave us those rights, and not ourselves or each other, and we can neither give them away in the universal paradigm of truth--or legitimately take them away from another, since we didn't endow ourselves with such in the first place--how is it that we have come into this world and even had to remind ourselves with words that acknowledge these "self-evident truths" about those rights--in a fashion that has taken eons upon eons to remember while we are even "visiting" in this world???? Dave

hey,
the guy posting as Peter Pan is not me,
just to make that clear,

but besides that,
in the topic of citizenship,

Want about the next criteria;
1. legal / stable political climate
2. employement / new venture oppertunities
3. labour laws
4. real estate, for the same money you have
a crappy appartement in some big city, while in East Europe you have, no kidding, a real castle,
or in north/south? carolina, and so on,
5. love.., wasn´t that all about..so I ain´t moving!

Love, Passion, and good spiritual vibrations,

Ps. you have to have a soundtrack..!
offcourse..
so, in the ' thematics'

Red Hot Chili Peppers
Around the World

All around the world
We could make time
Rompin' and a-stompin'
'cause I'm in my prime

Born in the north
And sworn to entertain ya
'Cause I'm down for
The state of Pennsylvania

I try not to whine
But I must warn ya
'Bout the mothafuckin'
Girls from California

Alabama baby
Said "hallelujah"
Good God girl
I wish I knew ya

I know, I know for sure
That life is beautiful around the world
I know I know it's you
You say, "Hello" and then I say, "I do"

Come back, baby
'cause I'd like to say
I've been around the world
Back from Bombay

Fox hole love
Pie in your face
Livin' in and out
Of a big fat suitcase

Bona fide ride
Step aside my Johnson
Yes I could
In the woods of Wisconsin

Wake up the cake
It's a lake she's kissin' me
As they do
When they do in Sicily

I know, I know for sure
That life is beautiful around the world
I know I know it's you
You say, "Hello" and then I say, "I do"

Where you want to go?
Who you want to be?
What you want to do?
Just come with me

I saw god
And I saw the fountains
You and me girl
Sittin' in the Swiss mountains

Me Oh My O
Me and Guy O
Freer then a bird
'cause we're rockin' Ohio

Around the world
I feel dutiful
Take a wife
cause life is beautiful

I know I know for sure
Ding, dang, dong, dong, deng, deng, dong, dong, ding, dang.
I know I know it's you
Ding, dang, dong, dong, deng, deng, dong, dong, ding, dang.

Mother Russia, do not suffer
I know you're bold enough
I've been around the world
And I have seen your love

Pete Pan....It was only for a few who know me, there's no need for you to poke your nose.
Thanks!

Vish and Sunil - Yes, it is true that I took US citizenship just for the passport but where did I say I was unpatriotic? I love the US. It has widened my horizons beyond what I could ever have hoped for. But there is no way that the US will mean the same to me as India. If there were to be a war between the 2 countries there's no question which side I would be on. The passport will have to go out the window.

Sunil, I'm trying to think of any rights that I came to have in the US that I did not already have in India. I cannot think of anything. Our generation was very anti-establishment and this was before political correctness so we were free in ways not even imaginable today. What I do appreciate about the US and wish we had in India is more equality across the board. I tend to feel a little boxed in when I am in India. I guess that will be slow to change.

Its great to read all the comments- ranging from some people not wanting me to write on the blog, to taking the thoughts I had shared to an even deeper level. There are many responses that flood my mind, but I hesitate as I realise how easy it is to be misunderstood. Or do we sometimes understand what we want to and not what is actually said? Some of you have even thought that 'I' have got my US citizen! Its so clearly written that these thoughts were shared by a film maker friend Rahul, who had recently got his US citizenship and had sent me this email.
I am sorry I am a dreamer. Just wish silly things like one world, no borders (at least in our minds)... Will try to be more sensible.
I remember my father used to say "The world is as we are" and "what we see, we become". or at least something to that effect.
For me this forum is a means to share my thoughts and sometimes even others. But if being spontaneous is going to be so difficult, I should either stop writing on the blog or should assume a name like "dream on" or something!

Nandita - there will always be people who disagree with you. I think blogging is a good way to deepen your perspective about your own self as well as the rest of the world.

If you reflect on it a bit, your notion of one world is in conflict with the notion of plurality - both of which you seem to espouse. When one cannot resolve conflicts within one's own persona, how is it possible to do so with the rest of the world? :)

Nandita,

i think the irony of patriotism is aptly portrayed in the song "Buffalo Soldier" where the lines go... "Buffalo soldier, born in Africa...fighting for America."

when one accepts the citizenship of a country i think one should be more loyal to the country which one has adopted than the country in which one was born. it is a matter of individual principle.

about patriotism at the three levels...i think u are mistaken when u say that the poor class is clueless about it. in fact one feels in the time of war....it is the poor who really come forward for defending the country with their lives while the larger section of the rich class is just happy to donate money for the sake of expenses incurred during war or in rehabilitation...but may be wanting in coming down to lifethreatening ground battle when compared to the poorer Indian soldier.

Divya thanks for the encouragement and sorry that you dont understand the co-existance of one world and plurality.
Only courage of conviction gives one the strength to speak one's mind and the openness, to hear others.
Some of you begin your day now, while some of us end it. And both are possible and both are true. I guess reality is complex and simple, depending on how we look at it.

Guys- If you read the first para of the posting, it says that a "friend of Nandita's" sent her an e-mail; so these thoughts were his, and she would like to share it with you ! I am surprised at how most of you assumed that she wanted citizenship and how these were her views- Do you even read the posting or just react and post your views regardless of what some one writes ?

And besides I am the friend who wrote the letter- so write to me if you want to be specific.

´I am sorry I am a dreamer. Just wish silly things like one world, no borders (at least in our minds)... Will try to be more sensible.
I remember my father used to say "The world is as we are" and "what we see, we become". or at least something to that effect.
For me this forum is a means to share my thoughts and sometimes even others. But if being spontaneous is going to be so difficult, I should either stop writing on the blog or should assume a name like "dream on" or something!´

Dear nandita,

girl, you keep on dreaming!!
everything at this moment was someone´s dream once...

and as for the critics,
A favorite quote from my father,
(in Polish it sounds so much cooler, but nevertheless)

the dogs will keep on barking,
but the karavan keeps on going!

And as from Anthony Robbins, date with destiny or time of your life program,
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
George Bernard Shaw

Expand Your Imagination About What's Possible by Mark Victor Hansen

When we were children we believed anything was possible. We created worlds where we were the main characters and everything revolved around our wants. Our friends came over and became part of these worlds and we had the time of our lives – laughing, playing – being who we wanted to be. It was magical!

As time passed and we grew older, people saw what we were doing and they weren't sure they liked it anymore. They saw us being young, excited and joyful – what they used to be, but no longer were. And, by golly they didn't allow us to be these things either. They said things like, "Grow up!" "Act your age." "Stop dreaming!" "Be realistic."

Whether it was teachers, parents, and counselors – there's a good chance that at least one person in our pasts didn't know any better at the time. We didn't know that daydreaming and knowing exactly what we want would be vital to our future happiness and success. We didn't know that these people were not mad at us – they were perhaps, instead, disappointed with themselves for allowing their dreams to die.

What they don't know, and maybe even you don't realize, is that dreams can never be destroyed. They can be battered and bruised, but they can never die. They just sink into a deep sleep in the back of your mind. They lie there, like Sleeping Beauty, waiting for the day when they will be realized.

Well, I'm here to help you wake them up!

It's time to remember the magic of our youth. It's time to remember the days when there were no impossibilities. It's time to awaken your dreams and start living the life you've always wanted to live.

Each and every one of us was born rich. We each have, at our beck and call, 18 billion brain cells, waiting for us to give them some direction. The only limitations that exist are those we impose on ourselves. Otherwise, our brains do not know any limitations. Our minds will believe whatever we convince them to believe. So, why aren't we living out our dreams? What's stopping us?

Most people are not living the lives they truly want to live because they are not thinking big enough, nor are they focused on exactly what they want to do.

The key to having everything we want lies in expanding our definition of what's possible and focusing on what we want. That's it! Once we believe in the possibility of anything and focus in on exactly what we want to have, exactly what we want to do, then our minds can take us there.

'Predetermine the objectives you want to accomplish. Think big, act big and set out to accomplish big results.'

Mark Victor Hansen

Mark Victor Hansen, co-author of the Chicken Soup for the Soul Series

With Love, passion, and good spiritual vibes,

The points which nandita's friend raised about nationalism takes us to identity and the desire to be nameless (or)country less is good but my doubt is that even wihout a citizenship you belong to somthing may be to an entity called no country.

Rahul,

I posted a comment (some illogical babble of inferior intellect, as Roger aptly termed it). I was aware, inspite of the intellect handicap, that Nandita was quoting a letter you wrote.

Yeah, I did notice that a few people who disagreed imply that Nandita wrote it. Since she certainly seems to find it interesting in a positive way, whether the comments mistakenly address her or you make no difference to their 'intent', no?

Would the replacement of Nandita in their comments with Rahul, change the view being presented? It is certainly appropriate that you clarify that you were the author. My point simply being I view the attribution errors in these comments as semantic.

Nandita, I didn't read one word that said you shouldn't post on the blog. I certainly hope you didn't receive hate mail as a result! If disagreements in my comments came through so harshly, apologies for my limitations in writing.

Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will.
George Bernard Shaw

Imagination is more important than knowledge
Albert Einstein

Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself.
George Bernard Shaw

Miracles, in the sense of phenomena we cannot explain, surround us on every hand: life itself is the miracle of miracles.
George Bernard Shaw

Only on paper has humanity yet achieved glory, beauty, truth, knowledge, virtue, and abiding love.
George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.
George Bernard Shaw

Peace is not only better than war, but infinitely more arduous.
George Bernard Shaw

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.
George Bernard Shaw

Some look at things that are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?
George Bernard Shaw

The first condition of progress is the removal of censorship.
George Bernard Shaw

The golden rule is that there are no golden rules.
George Bernard Shaw

The only service a friend can really render is to keep up your courage by holding up to you a mirror in which you can see a noble image of yourself.
George Bernard Shaw

The perfect love affair is one which is conducted entirely by post.
George Bernard Shaw

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw

The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity.
George Bernard Shaw

There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it.
George Bernard Shaw

wouldn´t that be..

Love..;),
passion, and some good inspirational vibrations,

Nandita - Plurality means that we would have to be accepting of every lifestyle imaginable. This is simply not possible. Therefore, I believe that it is better for people to be able to do their thing within their own regions and among their own people. This way every one is happy.

True plurality, for example, would run the gamut from pure vegetarianism to cannibalism. If all such people had to live together, this would be very unfair for the vegetarians. I personally would not like to live among cannibals unless their lifestyle had something else of interest and then too I would not stay among them long. Up to 30 years ago (and perhaps till today) there are tribes in the Amazon and the jungles of Indonesia that are cannibalistic. But they are ensconced in their environment so that's fine for everyone.

Similarly with regard to sexual attitudes, smoking and drinking, people tend to cluster among their own type. Of course national boundaries are not drawn on these principles these days but for genuine multiculturalism (as is exemplified in India) people would necessarily live among their own type. Or else be one giant monolith like the US.

Nandita,

I guess in this fast paced world....we just don't pause to see some things. Since your second paragraph started without a Quote and ended with no Quote....I guess some of us just ran into the paragraph in a fast manner assuming that you were the one getting US citizenship -:). Though I guess the better of us should have realized that you were in India doing films and not 'migrated' to US.

Hi Nandita,

It is to the credit of humanity that you have been afforded the opprtunity to blog on this great forum. Your input only serves to augment this fantastic medium. Please do not despair in the face of criticism. Allow criticism to fuel the fire within you to forge ahead, and be discouraged.

You are doing well, and the thoughts you advance on IntentBlog, do reflect on you. There is an old adage: you can tell the calibre of a person by the company he/she keeps. So, if the great thoughts of your friend Rahul rubs off on you, so be it. He is part of the company you keep.

Love,

Ron.

Correction: and not be discouraged~!

Its not the criticism that bothers me, but the inability to communicate adequately and the lack of time to take the discussion further. But thanks all of you, especially Marek, Ron and Krish. Thanks for dreaming together and "rising above", in the debate. I wanted to clarify it was Rahul Dholakia's thoughts just to get the facts right and not to escape the criticism. The fact I chose to post his email obviously meant that it stirred enough in me to share it with all of you. "Unity in diversity" is a phrase most of us in India have heard since we were kids. I am surprised some of you find it contradictory to believe in one world and pluralism! Tolerance, respect and sensitivity towards the "other" brings "one world". But I guess each one to their own. Thanks Marek also for sharing some very insightful quotes. G.B. Shaw is so profound and witty that it would be a shame if we learnt nothing from his wisdom.

any time, my pleasure, ;)
(been there.., done that.., know the feeling..;)
Keep up the great posts,
with love, passion and good spiritual vibrations to ya all!

Hi Nandita,
I do agree with you. I see no contradiction. Oneness includes diversity!
It does seem difficult to grasp. Our eyes and senses seem to indicate otherwise.
Yet, at core - our beingness is One, and ever shall Be.
With love,
~~ K

oh, I do agree as well - about the challenge of semantics and communication.
Please keep writing and sharing here with us.

It is very difficult to be a citizen of the world; so many billions of people; all nestled in one small space called earth; trying to manifest their own personal desires.

Automatic-intent-interest-clash for the whole.

For human beings to progress; intent must be for ALL; to have desire's manifest; not just those able to do it. The strong, are strong; to support the weak.

Intent for all, is an intent worth manifesting. Self-Intent is limited.

North

Oh come on Sachin Mukhedkar!
To put it politely, your reaction 'don't poke your nose here' just indicated that you have to learn a lot from your Guru Deepak Chopra!

Take it easy man! Happy Diwali!!

Cheers!

Vish, you are funny man. Taking a oath to a country doesn't mean you have to cheer the country in a game or keep quiet when the President of the country goes nuts. It is not called patriotism or being sincere to the oath. I don't care if others whine for using this term. Your definition of patriotism and adherence to oath is shallow and right wingish.

Sunil,

"o, when they cheer Pakistan on the basis of their religious loyalties, there's something being said."

My argument in this case is what is the need to make so much fuss for a game. I live in Seattle but I root for their NFC West arch rival Rams. But it doesn't make me a person against Seattle. I just root for a different team. If a guy creates a "physical" damage to India in support of Pakistan and if you want that guy prosecuted by legal means, I will support your argument. But if you want to prosecute a guy just because he supported Pakistan in a cricket match, I find it ridiculus. It is just a game. Why can't Indians be professional about it.

"Unity in diversity" is a phrase we grew up with in India. It's beauty lies in its paradox so it's quite normal to consider it contradictory on a more prosaic level.

It's also quite normal (I have sadly come to discover) that it is hard to effectively get one's point across, so you're not alone there Nandita.

To belabour my point and to continue with the vegetarian example, I have noticed that India is the only country where vegetarians don't have attitude. In the US they definitely consider themselves to belong to a superior species. Why is that? Could it be because of India's diversity, i.e., the fact that in India people of one type hang out together and are utterly indifferent to what others are doing? This utter indifference (as opposed to the idiotic notion of tolerance) is what is missing from the type of thinking that has emerged from the west. Indians are capable of this indifference precisely because they don't force any notions of right and wrong down anyone's throat. My theory is that they are able to do so because they stick within their clusters.

Consider for example the previous discussion on regional films. There was a definite strain of superiority among those who believed that regional films "ought" to be appreciated. There was ruthless condemnation of those who simply preferred Hindi films. This attitude is not even tolerant let alone indifferent. Yet it is these same people who talk about tolerance, and "one world" in the same breath as they condemn those that do not share their enlightened views on regional cinema.

This is why I believe true acceptance cannot come from a forced attitude of appreciation of everything but rather from discovering one's boundaries.

Dear Krish, once again I would urge you to read and comprehend before you shoot your mouth off. People like Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky, etc. are probably the greatest critics of the US and also great patriots. At the core, their criticism stems from their commitment to the well-being of their country.

Dear Divya,

Multiculturalism, secularism and all of those values which truly make one a human being first and last, are naturally embodied in Hinduism. We don't need to make a fuss about it There are always insecure sections of Hindus such as VHP, Bajrang Dal etc. who do not understand this and feel the need to mimic the actions of other religious groups. Despite Nandita's best intentions, her biased approach will only make more Hindus insecure and drive them towards the rabble rousers.

Dear Rahul and Divya,

If you truly want to be a world citizen, you do not need any sanction. It is hypocritical to say that I want the extra benefits of citizenship but I will not abide by the quid pro quo.

Hi Nandita,

It is all part of the grand, cyclical divine play.

There are no boundaries before our separate egos are formed and hence no awareness of being a citizen of this country or that or of the world or of even the universe. All nature is one.

In our limited individual lives this stage is the stage of our childhood.

Then as we evolve and our egos begin to form we begin to divide the one into "I" and the "other" and the boundaries begin to appear.

This is the stage of our youth, there are boundaries but not so intellectually suffocating beng only physical or emotional.

Then as we evolve further our egos begin to get firmly established. We are no longer emotional youth but diehard, mostly middle-aged intellectual creatures. We begin to divide the "other" further and further and deeper and deeper at the same time identifying with some while feeling opposite to others. And the boundaries proportionately begin to increase and take firm roots. We have created a web of a world of boundaries not very much unlike that of the famous spider's web.

Then resultant intellectual suffocation helped by the evolutionary push from behind thanks to the original superforce of the big bang which has now come to become our and our earth's lot, pushes us to break free of the boundaries once again. In the process we move beyond the egos and intellect as well and reach the stage of ego-transcending intelligence. We are generally so in our old age.

The reason why some may feel intellectual suffocation even in youth or old age rather than in middle age is that our present individual lives are in fact a part of our long what I would call 'evolutionary lives" which span many lives of the like of this one individual life. And we may be in the middle age phase of our evolutionary life even though we may be in our youth or old age in our present life. So depending upon in which phase of the long evolutionary life we are we may exhibit different sensitivities to boundaries.

So-called masters and sages are in the old age and hence ego-transcending intelligence phase of their 'evolutionary life'. Which is why they do not feel attached to any country or ultimately even to the (manifest)world.

Harb.

On reading some posts, I want to expand a bit on my previous post.

I want to make it clear that the world is always a unity in diversity and diversity in unity and it is not very difficult to understand. Imagine gold ornaments. They all are one, gold, but yet different as ornaments. Similarly, the world is made up of two parts, the forms and the substance of which those forms are made. As substance all are one, as forms all are different.

Then again, we are to our world as cells of our body are to us (James Lovelock of the Gaia fame has likened us to earth or Gaia - the living Earth - as the cells of our body are to us. But I have gone beyond it in my book Self Designed Universe to liken ourselves to our universe as the cells of our body are to us. For more detail see www.selfdesigneduniverse.com). Anyway, now, all cells of my body are one in so far as they all are me, but yet all are also separate. Similarly, we all are one as one with the universe even though otherwise separate as well. Thus we are in fact always one in many and many in one.

I may also add here that we all serve the greater cause of the evolution of the universe in whatever we do - even while fighting with each other - just in the same way the cells of our bodies are serving ours in whatever they do.

Seen in this context, I may also add though it will not be very palatable to soft stomachs here that in the divine or universal scheme of things a Hitler's works are as important as a Mother Teressa's. Nobody can go beyond the scheme of things of the universe and all are only serving this scheme of things or of evolution. The apparent fights are not more than the apparent fight of our own two feet to go ahead of each other but what they actually accomplish? They or their fight help us to move ahead. It is the same with overall scheme of evolution of the universe. Two apparently opposing or fighting forces actually help universe's evolution to move ahead.

Some people will find it unacceptable especially given the fact that Hitler killed so many people while Mother loved so many. But if we are to go after Hitler because of this we must first go after the so-called 'loving' God who kills so many what with the now Tsunami here now an earthquake there...

Secondly, I may also make it clear that we never really know who has really killed more people. Some kill overtly but some covertly. Some kill actively while some others passively. The fact of the matter is that all are serving the greater scheme of things by whatever they do and moreover, nobody does anything on his/her own, it is the cause and effect working ever since the beginning of the present cycle of the universe since big bang. And it is built outside of us in the so-called objective world as much as inside us through our genetic makeups and even beyond them through and in our minds.

Lol, now try to forgive Hitler if you remember Deepak Chopra's post on forgiveness! Sorry I have forgotten the name as of now.

Harb

I am afraid that many people will misunderstand me when I say that Hitler is as much serving the scheme of things of the universe as Mother Teressa. They will think that perhaps by saying so I am against giving punishment to so-supposed wrong doers. But it is not the case. Doing what you do is as much a part of the scheme of things as receiving or giving punishment. I may clarify my point further by a story whose author I have forgotten.

A man died and was produced before Dharamraj, the giver of punishment to wrong doers on earth in the kingdom of God up there. Whenever Dharamraj would enlist a wrong deed done by the man the latter would invoke God in his defence saying "God knows I did this because of this, God knows I did this because of that, God knows I killed that old lady because she threatened to throw me out of her house even though I had high fever if I would not give her the rent of the last three months, God knows I stole that cycle because I had got my leg hurt badly and I could not go to my work on foot and if I did not go I would not be able to eat at night... and so on.

In desperation, Dharamraj requested God to come over and listen to this man's explanations and decide upon the punishment Himself as this man invoked Him as a witness in whatever he did. On hearing this God laughed heartily. Then He said: "Listen Dharmaraj! I know everything. Knowing everything I know none is at fault. Everybody did what he did because of some overwhelming circumstances forcing him to do so. Only someone who knows things only partially can find anybody guilty. Which is, in fact, why I have chosen you to do the job of giving punishments. Carry on with your job.

Though this is not in the story, I may add that giving punishment even in this way serves a purpose. With the fear of punishment we try to resist more and more the overwhelming circumstances and thus in a way outgrow such circumstances which is our evolutionary goal. Sages have outgrown all such circumstances in the course of their long evolution which would as yet be quite overwhelming for us ordinary mortals.

Of course, forgiving will still remain the best course of action if one could understand and do it. By giving punishment we try to divert one's dhyana towards one's inner self which finally means towards God within. By forgiving we directly touch base with that inner self. No punishment could compare with it.

Love, Harb.

Don't have too much to add. I've often thought of myself as a world citizen, though what I really mean is that I belong to the human race and nothing that is human is "foreign" to me. The world is so big it can be daunting to learn about customs, but behind the mask of customs is a person just like myself, so we are brothers and sisters, no matter what our label might be.

sunil,sachin,krish,vish,divya,marek(my fav!),peter pan,AK and of course the pretty author her self,
hi to all!
this was a well written piece. i enjoyed it. but i think i relished reading the comments more than the write-up it self. but who should get the credit for all this interesting anthology of comments?-its the original post.Its what induced so many ppl around the world, its what emotionally drove them to spill their thoughts here. i had to write this to let you know how much i loved this whole thing. and as you can see, its nudging me to knock down my thoughts on the key board :)))

this was something i could relate to very much. i lived most of my growing up years in a middle eastern country- UAE and when i was about 15 yrs of age moved into my alien motherland and settled in bangalore. So to sum it up, i am an indian, brought up in a moderatly liberal moslem country. belong to kerala by birth, but live in karnataka.born a hindu but visit all possible places of worship despite the fact i dont believe in the concept of God. i am a caboodle of contrasts. i am an indian who believed (and the child in me still does) that UAE was my home. when i close my eyes and think of the word 'home', i see the place where i grew up. but that in no way can make me a unpatirotic Indian. Commin back to India had taught me loads. mostly about ppl, about believes, about tolerance, about diversity, about hardships, about strength. i love my country , i am proud of what she has been able to do in these 50 something years, considering the fact that we since centuries are the proud hosts of ppl of all colours of skin, multitudes of religions(and their sub divisions),countless languages, diverse cultures, contrasting land scapes(deserts,snow capped mountains, rivers,forests...). i hope i was plugged to an ECG(or whatever) just to tell u how well my heart is doin as i think of my country ! yes UAE is far ahead of India. India sucks in infrastructure, regualtions, standards, etc. but we are responsible and have to play 'mother' to our nation. i am patient just like a nurturing mother. and i believe that india will see for her self and better her self in the coming years. if we have been able to make the world sit up and take notice of us(thanks to IT), then i believe we are on the right track and capable of even more. check out the blogosphere! the number of indian bloggers and the quality indian write ups are a proof of our ever-alert, responsive and enthusiastic collective-conscience. a lil patience, perseverance will take us there. true patriotism,is standing up for the truth.

we bangaloreans have experianced the biggest down pour ever this yr. this unfortunately has been the true test of bangalorean infrastructure- buildings collapsed, rains have dug cauldrons into the pathetic roads. when i say that the govt doesnt use the taxpayer's money efficently to make good roads that dont need shoddy patch-up every 6 months, and compare it to the fantastic roads in the UAE- i am NOT unpatriotic. i admire the unity and cooperation that dot-like emirates show to each other, and i urge us to learn from it-i am not unpartiotic.Its my patriotism that makes me speak.i want us making world class roads. i want us to see common goals and cooperate. but patriotism has nothing to do with your taking citizenship somewhere else. its living circumstances that urge people to. its just like relations, just cos u broke up with a friend, doesnt mean that you wouldnt feel good when u think of the good times you spent with that person. the feeling is undeniable truth, and so is that experiance.

i too used to think like krish at school. but now when i look back , i think i was very naive to believe it. its something that will never happen. but of course its a mind set- so virtually possible but practically impossible. a world without borders, the blue ball, is perhaps limited to a sight from the space- simply beautiful, but touch down on earth , and reality hits hard.

musilms supporting pakistan- i stand by divya and all the others who find it disgusting. being a bangalorean, i have tons of muslim friends and am lucky to share a frank enough relation with them to find why this loyalty to a country that supports killin of people in our own land- both non-muslims and muslims. and let me tell you krish, its superficial observation and naive to think that its a simple case of supporting a team of their choice.most of the time, there are under-lying issues to their support and mostly its an illogical(doesnt matter who dies,who loses jobs,family,home) religious leaning more that any thing else. just think of this- do we indians rave and rant over people who support aussies or the english or the lankans(despite them being indirectly linked to blowing up one of our PMs, though not responsible) in a match against india?- NO. there is a clear cut difference. i am patriotic but would like my muslim friends to see more logic, than religion.

i loved what vish said "When one talks of citizenship, explicitly or implicitly, there is an oath of allegiance that each citizen takes. In the best interests of my country, I can oppose a war that my country chooses to wage, but I can never wish for the defeat of my country in the war. I cannot, on the one hand, live off the fruits that my country offers and pray for its downfall. This thought must transcend political, ideological or religious allegiances." but i'd like to add, that if my country was waging a war to support something wrong, then it wouldnt matter to me whether we win or lose.i admire our straight forward, tolerant yet firm policy in dealing with pakistan-WE ARE ON THE RIGHT. but when i really get pissed, sometimes i think its time we throw the tolerance out of the window(eg the saturday delhi blasts). but if we'd do that , then whats the difference between us and what the US did in the case of afghanistan,iraq? true we have suffered more that the US for yrs as far as terrorism is concerned and it makes us more eligible to take such an action but killin people is no ans and the lesser known truth is that the war is good feeding ground for some super power gun-powder-supplying vultures. i wouldnt want them to eat of the carcasses of our soilders.i am patriotic but wish no killin.

i'd like to quote you, nanditha,"Only courage of conviction gives one the strength to speak one's mind and the openness, to hear others." those are your own words and from your heart. so never shy away from telling something under your true identity .being your self, always, silently adds to your strength and auguments the process of growing up.

an as for you marek. there is this comment that you posted on the October 27, 2005 10:38 AM addressed to nanditha. i felt it deeply inspires me and had a profound relation to what i am going thru in my personal life. with your permission, i would like to quote you, in my blog. and the quote, well, is gonna be the whole damn comment. i loved it. can i paste it in my blog, pleeeeease? i love your free spirit and sense of humour. nice fun reading your comments.

i am sorry if this was too long for a comment , but i wanted to spill. and so i have.

Dear Nita Arvind,
offourse, you may, dear, use all my Spamm,
I´m happy you liked it, Great blog you have there,
Love, Passion, and some good spiritual vibrations

Some very important issues that people tend to over look
when the so called secularists and ELITES discuss about
Muslims and immigrants behavior in USA.

Muslims did NOT arrive into India the way Indian immigrants came
to USA or UK. They did not gate crash into these countries
the way Muslims came into India.

Muslims came into India
destroyed as much as they can,
looted as much as they can ,
killed as many as they can
and then stayed back to rule as long as they can
without assimilating into India and forcing conversions.

And in the end what they do , they say they cannot live
along with Hindus and broke up the country causing countless
to die and millions to become home less.

Again who is the cause of all this MUSLIMS of India.

India has always been at the receiving end of Muslims.

And if we ask them to show a little patriotism OH MY GOD
we are jingoists and religions fundamentalists.

Look at Indian immigrants situation in USA or UK.
And they arrived into these countries UNLIKE Muslims in India.
How are they behaving in these countries UNLIKE Muslims in India.
How are they contributing to these countries UNLIKE Muslims in India.

Before writing random thoughts and posing as intellectuals you
intellectual pygmies should THINK for a moment before daring
to compare Indian immigrants in USA to muslins in India.

HOW DARE YOU DO THAT and insult the immigrants , Nandita.

Phani

For what it's worth...I love the rest of the world far too much to be merely ONE nationality. Even though I have been fortunate enough to visit some 40 countries on planet earth there are still so many I wish to see and vaguely try to understand....

On a totally unrelated issue...It's good to know about this site as I have not heard much from Nandita Das after meeting her ever so briefly at the Cannes film festival. Dressed in my kurtha and poised with camera in hand all was in order for a photo with Ms Das when out of the blue leapt an hysterical French woman who ended up taking my place! Nevertheless I did hand her my business card and will forever remember that moment outside The Martinez Hotel.

I am so glad that the dialogue is still on. Plurality of thoughts can only expand our own understanding. We can even agree to disagree. So Phani, even though the post were my friend's words, but to say "how dare you..." is I think totally uncalled for. You may have your views, which may differ from mine, but thats no reason why we cant coexist on this blog! I enjoyed reading Harb, Jim, Nita and everyone who added to the dialogue with their thoughts and experiences. Trenton I remember meeting you...I agree I too love people from so many parts of the world and thats why the utopian desire to have no boundaries, just bridges. Times are troubled in any case with so much of inequality and violence everywhere, can we at least on the blog, through our exchanges create an Alliance for peace. A drop in the ocean, but then every drop counts, doesnt it?

Phani Bhushan:

I dont know if this sounds familiar- but In Architecture- the famous Taj Mahal, Qutub Minar, City of Hyderabad; in Music: Zakir Hussain, Sultan Khan, Bismillah Khan, Amjad Ali Khan etc etc; in Cinema- From Dilip Kumar to Shah Rukh, Aamir; From Madhulbala to Nargis, From Pakeezah and Moghul -e Azam to QSQT and Dil Chahta Hai- From Ghalib to Naushad, From Salim Javed to Shabana- Naseer; In Science: From Algebra to Algorithm; In Fashion- From the stitched garments to Salwar Kameez, the Sherwanis; In Food- The Moghlai feasts and the sumptuous Kababs; in Cricket from Nawab of Patudi to Durani; From Azaruddin to Kaif and Pathan; In politics from Babur and Akbar to Moulana Azad and Abul Kalam; all have contributed to the civilzation we are part of and proudly call India- So lets give credit where its due and not speak insensitively.

Who are "the Muslims"? Both sides of this debate seem to attribute homoneity to 120 million people on the basis of a shared religious background. For example, in Nandita's initial post, I read this line " I am told that the Muslims in India are unpatriotic because they hang Pakistani Flags", which reads as if ALL Indian Muslims do this. And then there was the lengthy diatribe outlining all the evils that "the Muslims" have inflicted upon India.

Isn't this all rather simplistic? The most fiercely nationalistic Indians I know happen to be Muslims. They would NEVER wave Pakistani flags, under any circumstances that I can think of, and are vocal in their support for the nation-state of India. If asked "what are you?" they would all unhesitantingly answer "Indian", then "Muslim". Posts that accuse "Muslims" of unspeakable atrocities as if they were one entity are as silly as those which say (explicitly or implicitly) that all those who share any given religious background will act and think alike.

Anyway, to all who are reading this, दीपावली की शुभकामनाएँ, and Eid mubarak!

Being a citizen of the world would initially seem to be dependent upon the social mobility afforded to you. But it's also about taking advantage of opportunities that come your way and developing a mindset that allows your human spirit to dominate.

As an Englishman growing up in the West I took the greatest opportunity ever given to me and married an Indian women. Indian womenhood being such a strong beacon of hope in the world.

From the relative splendour of our house in England we regularly travel to rural India and stay in our mud house in Maharashtra.

Although my Murati and Hindi are embarrassing I fit into this world with such ease. The physical and social landscape and the people who live in the surrounding villages provide me with a wonderful alternative universe; their strength, pride, humour and kindness enthralls me day after day.

I've even opened a small window for anybody who has an interest.
http://www.clayhouse.co.uk

I find that our dramas and emotions tend to be universal; it's the context that changes. Power, wealth, fame and fanatisism (and their opposites) can corrupt and distort our motivations in life. But it's up to us to fight against that.

Highlighting the work of Daya Bai and others (I was lucky to visit Baba Amte and his son at Anandwan a couple of years ago: http://www.anandwan.info ) does a great service to these people. They may not have travelled the earth, but in spirit, they are the true citizens of the world.

Regards to all, I've enjoyed the debate.

Luke.

And by the way regarding those parades that Indians carry out celebrating independance day in NY and other places in the world , THEY TAKE PERMISSION for those parades UNLIKE Muslims who hoist pakistani flag just to rub it in.

I don't recall them taking permission for the govt to express THEIR PATRIATISM.

Yes I use the DARE word because there is no comparision between these two issues and she compares them and questions the behavier of immigrants in US .

As I said WE TAKE PERMISSION from the local govt
and the muslims DO NOT take permission , THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

INTELLECTUAL PYGMIES.....

Phani - I do understand your frustration and I agree with what you are saying. However, as Nandita said, she is entitled to her opinion. If your purpose is to drive home the loopholes in anyone's thinking it will be better served by making your point in a calmer manner. I hope this is not too preachy, specially since I am rather hot-headed myself. But believe it or not I do make a constant effort and I hope you will too.

Luke - Your clay house is fab. I've saved the link and hope I have the good fortune to come and visit some day.

The moment you have made your opinion public , for others
to read/hear/see and react , you loose the privilege to say
its my opinion and i am entitled to it.
If it is your opinion you would keep it to yourself and
not make it public.

Because what you say/write causes reaction from public.
I am not splitting hairs here in arguing but there are
glaring errors in the arguments posted here.

I believe one should not randomly make statements and expect
others not to react. It applies to me too.
A few people have reacted to what I wrote but they have not
disproved/counter argued my points , rather were commenting
on my language skills.

Regarding the contribution of Muslims and later British to India
its not rocket science to figure out that what ever they did was
for their convenience and not because they loved India so much
that they wanted to ENRICH it.

What ever monuments Muslims erected they were not done because
of their love to India but they were done for their ego satisfaction.
Spending so much of public( who by they way were Hindus) money for
his fancies.

I don't understand why people get carried away so easily without
pausing a moment to think behind someone's actions.

Many people thank British for forcing English on India
albeit for their convenience.
The same people would be cursing British if the world is predominantly
speaking french rather than English.

Coming back to Muslims in India.

Who came uninvited into India
Who invaded India countless times(Good time to catch up on Tamarlen , Ghazni , Ghori)
Who demanded that India be partitioned so that they can live securely.
It was majority Hindu state that ALLOWED them to stay back even though they
wanted India to be split.
You split the country into 2 and then you stay back.
Looking at Muslim population India has more Muslims than Pakistan!!!!
They country that was carved out of India because Muslims could not live
along with their invaded subjects.
Is this some kind of joke.

You force partition on India and you stay back and wave Pakistani flags!!!!
Can any one explain the rationale behind that behavior other than just
rubbing it in.??

Please don't even think about comparing the behavior of Muslims in India
with Indian immigrants in USA or any other countries.

The reason we don't have a country called WORLD is because every one wants
to protect their way of life and surroundings.And every one wants to protect
their hard earned piece of land. Of course in the case of USA,canada,Australia
and Muslims its just land grabbing nevertheless they want to hang on to it.

And I don't see the big deal about being a world citizen.
You don't need to be so to travel around the world. The only time you cry for
a country's passport is when you want to enjoy the rights that come along
with it. If you don't care for them how does it matter to which country you belong to.

What is the motive in wanting to be a world citizen ?
Whats the new thing you ll gain by being so.

The so called artificial identity tags were created by us for ease of administration
that does not mean you have to identify your self with one specific piece of land.

A passport is a document that recognizes your feelings of identity
(by the local govt) with a specific piece of land/country.

But you don't have to have it to FEEL close to a country/land , DO YOU??

Happiness is a state of the Mind...
Bliss is when you have no Mind...

Read about how a 10-year-old blind son of a gardener in Bhopal taught a lesson in advertising ethics to the Voice of America and also about My mother's 22 rooms. Click on the link: www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com

Hi,
I found about this blog from an article in HT.
And this is the first post I'm reading. Very cool.

The question you ask Nandita, is a very fundamental and human question that we need to ask ourselves as humans. Country, culture, blah, blah... everything else is just a charade someone created to please themselves. I'm no supereducated, well read person, just a simple guy who thinks about taking a look at the bigger picture and not petty small things we as humans have created. You taking the citizenship of any country doesn't matter as long as you pay your dues to the planet. The country - if you lived fifty years before now you would've seen so many countries dissolve and so many new ones formed...

In a very spiritual way, think of Gaia and stop raping the spirit you're supposed to nurture. Isn't there a way we can find to pay our dues to our planet?

Nandita:

Firstly, thank you so much for the kind words and for remembering me amidst the whirlwind that was Cannes 2005!

I would like to share an excerpt from my first book which I wrote in 2003 entitled: Faraway Places New Horizons. In it I write about my love for travel, the lure to go over that next horizon and about my first experiences abroad.

From Chapter One, In Transit: " The transit lounge of any international airport, train station of bus terminal is always a most intriguing place to study the human race. Inadvertedly, I always find myself endeavouring to work out the nationalities of those travellers without looking up at their destination. More often than not, however, I get it wrong as there will always be exceptions to the rule. Now more than ever Planet Earth is a becoming a more transient, flighty and broadly exotic sort of place. It is entirely possible nowadays for some from Swaziland to meet and fall in love with someone from Sweden; for a Moldovan to make-out with a Mexican; or even a Laplander to liaise with a Laotian. To think in less than 24 hours you can be halfway round the world is at once a richly intoxicating proposition.

Happy Diwali Everybody!

Thank you Nandita and all those who have taken the trouble to read my long posts. I know they were difficult to read but you cannot help writing what you yourself see and you cannot help seeing what you yourself really are.

We progress from being just physical bodies to emotional bodies to intellectual bodies to intelligence bodies and finally to all spirit as we evolve and according we see the world through senses, feelings, intellect, intelligence and finally through, or better, as spirit. I see the world in terms of the all pervading spirit and when you see it in terms of the spirit you cannot even differentiate between living and non-living what to talk of differentiating between man and man, man and man of one country and of an other, man and man of one religion and of an other. You see all as the work of one all-pervading spirit, nay, not the work but all as just one all prevading spirit. Because at the end there is no difference between the pervading spirit and its work. Just as wise say there is no difference between Shiva and his famous dance.

No doubt one feels a bit dismayed when one sees the discussion degenerating so soon to the Hindu Muslim levels. I thought people would have risen above such low levels when even our science today has reached quantum levels where all just becomes one spirit, that is, if we cannot believe what previously our religions in reality said. I can bet that no religious originator had any different experience of 'God', all just experienced the same oneness with All Nature and called it God, only they differed in its description and explanation, that too because all had such experiences in different times and so had to interpret and explain it differently suitable to the people of the times. There is absolutely no real, basic difference between various religions not to talk of various men.

Anyway thank you once again. Shall write more later.

Harb.

Footnote/Clarification:

In the excerpt from my book Faraway Places New Horizons it should read "someone from Swaziland" and of course "inadvertently I find myself"

With regards to the ongoing contributions to this post...all I can add is that I long for, envision a truly multicultural, borderless world. A world where especially women are afforded exactly the same rights and opportunities that most men have. To be able to accomplish this is a challenge but by no means an impossibility.
I say, throw everyone in the pot and stir!

Ciao
Trenton

"I say, throw everyone in the pot and stir!"

Trenton - This is the US model and it is exactly the opposite of multiculturalism. It is one giant monolith that pays lip service to plurality. People inevitably end up trying to escape the "problems" of their ethnicity. Carrots and sticks are used to ensure conformity to White Christian culture. Everything good in a culture is co-opted as you see with examples of Christian yoga and meditation, etc. while sati and dowry are deemed to be the "essence" of Indian culture. Natives (like Nandita) are employed to demonize their own culture. They land cushy jobs and go about believing they are so sophisticated and progressive. Meanwhile all the good points of a native culture are repackaged as "white" and universal.

Europe tried a different sort of multicultural experiment but it merely ended up in ghettoization and they are paying the price for it now.

The more I have thought about these issues, the more I am convinced that India offers the only model of effective multi-culturalism in the world. And the way this has been possible in India is by maintaining boundaries, not by erasing them and inflicting forced conformity. Of course it would be too much to expect our esteemed english speaking Indians to give credit to India for anything. We'll just have to wait for some white person so acknowledge this fact before they jump on the bandwagon.

Nandita,

I must compliment you for your writing. Who says that beauty and brain dont go along well.

However i find it Fashionable for celebreties to talk of "Secularism" . Infact they talk of Psuedo secularism.

In your article you seem to justify the hoisting of Paki flags and compare it with Inidan celebrating in US.

You have forgotten to remember that those people out there are mostly with dual citizenship and visit India regularly. While as one section who hoist paki flags are supporting the Enemy, Enemy-which has and continues to sponsor terrorism in India.

Kindly dont compare the two.It speaks less of your otherwise good intellectual brain.

You percieve only what you are.

This takes one to the questions of knowing what you are or to the standard question of "Who am I?"

Many people try to teach it in various ways as if it can be taught by someone else. But alas! it cannot be. Just as sleep cannot be taught by someone else to the one who has not actually gone through sleep. Or just as real orgasmic experience or real love-at-first sight experience cannot be taught to someone who has not actually gone through them. All such things can only be learnt through one's self-experience. For which one has to be evolutionally ripe enough. Even the coming of the very question of "Who am I?" to one's mind depends upon one's being ripe beyond a certain stage.

Then we cannot understand the actions of the one who has actually had such an experience and thus found the real answer. Many people think he will act like a standard spiritual master or sage or godman or what you have. But no, no one can pin-point the actions of such a totally free soul. He may seemingly look moral here immoral there, he may seemingly look wise here fool there, he may seemingly look cruel here merciful there and so on.

It is called spontaneous action or flowing with the flow.

Yet, in all his such like actions such a person will be serving to which I say the universal scheme of things and to which one may as well say the God's play in its best possible way.

I had written somewhere in specially exalted mood: "Man is capable of having the last laugh! Beyond good and evil, beyond materialism and spirtualism, divine and undivine lies his fulfillment. A master is one who is neither an atheist, nor yet a theist but he himself... His actions arise from within himself, spontaneously and as per the need of the hour."

So, to reach this all duality-transcending stage of knowing of 'Who am I?" and then acting in the light of that knowledge is our highest goal.

Till then we will see different people, different religions, different countries, different boundaries. By looking at something which pains you outside work at your inside, at your own mind and evolve beyond. This, in fact, is the purpose of seeing those painful sights, painful boundaries in the present case.

I may here also tell an interesting related tale: that you perceive outside only what you yourself are inside. Once a common sage-teacher of Kauravas and Pandavas asked Duryodhana to bring before him a good man as he has to perform some auspicious rites and for this he needs the services of a really good man. Duryodhana went around their kingdom and returned alone. On asking by the Sage, Duryodhana replied that he could not find any good man in their entire kingdom.

Then the sage-teacher asked the same question of Yudhistra. Yudhistra likeise went around their
kingdom and returned alone. "Why O prince, you have come alone? Have you too not found any good man in the entire kingdom?"

"O no my revered teacher," replied Yudhistra. "In fact, I could not find ANY man who was not good. And so I could not decide to whom I should bring."

So this is the way we see things outside. Finally the boundaries are within us, within our own selves. Really, otherwise how would you recognise them?

Collectively, science by going deeper and deeper into things is trying to reach this very real "I" only 'out there' only objectively. Spirituality is trying the same thing by going inwards, inwards in our own minds, in other words, subjectively. As finally it can only be found subjectively that is why wise say "where science ends philosophy begins where philosophy ends spirituality begins."

Though the story does not end here. The story ends with the Way. "Where science ends philosophy begins, where philosophy ends spirituality begins, where spirituality ends the Way begins...which encompasses all, which knows all which can describe all..."I may add. The actions of such a person who has reached this Way-stage cannot be predicted.

Harb.

Yes, it certainly is an unpredictable world.

In Europe there are nuaunces within approaches to 'multiculturalism'; particularly in relation to the concept of civic society.

For example, in the UK people can wear emblems of their faith at all times. Whereas in France this is not tolerated; they uphold the concept of a secular, civic identity. And as a French citizen you leave your kippah/burkha/turban at home when you go to school.

I like the idea of civic spaces and identities that are secular. Different communities shouldn't be treated differently; ultimately, they should be treated the same.

But I wouldn't want monculturalism. What is needed is an exchange of ideas. Unfortunately if faith is placed in higher esteem than reason, this is not possible.

However, what most western countries are guilty of is celebrating diversity, whilst ignoring inequality.

i can understand phani's argument and every nerve in me can relate to the anger in his words. but phani i hope you are not going to brand all musilms in india unpatriotic. cos though a few, there are patriotic muslims. eg: my brother has a friend (only one),Nasir,a staunch patriotic indian. there was this incident at college - on independance day, all their musilm friends were bad mouthing India and Indians. so my brother and nasir initially got into an argument then consciously steered the topic elsewhere to avoid uncomfortable situations. a lil while later one of the guys took the indian flag , dropped it on the floor and stamped it several times. Nasir errupted and thrashed the guy till he bled! despite seeing 99% of such disrespect from musilm indians, i have to admit , when i see a few Nasirs, me eyes well and chest swells with pride. he is a captian-to-be in the indian Navy now. i strongly believe patriotism has a strong connection with the value system you are brought up with. nasir's dad too is a very partiotic man him self. partiotism like most of the other goodnesses are what u r taught at home. the muslim culture though a conquering one (in their stay here they have destroyed several indian monuments eg:check sculptures in hampi) they have contributed a lot to our culture ... so much so that it is now called indian and not muslim culture. i know hindu indians who are just as unpatriotic. who write off india to be a complete looser, and hate being here.. cos of the stupid reasons like... elcetricity and water... what do you say about that?!! phani, its a question of people's values more than anyting- including religion. :)

and marek thank you for the permission.

baby..you didn´t even had to ask..;)
But a lady always does..;)

Love, Passion,

Divya:

With respect, I do not see the world in terms of "white christian" this or black muslim that. I just see people, a whole lot of people... Our fellow human beings should not be denied the freedom to choose where on Earth they would like to reside. Whether you, me or anyone else likes it or not the fact is the world IS becoming more of a melting pot. I for one happen to find this fascinating...

In any case to paraphrase Voltaire: I may not be in agreement with much of what you have to say but I will argue till the cows come home your right to say it!

Footnote:

The one thing that concerns me most in these times is an expanding population and an adequate safety net for all peoples of the world. In the 36 years I have been around the human population has doubled from around 3 billion to over 6 and according to the UN population will climb towards 9 billion before levelling out? Something to think about...

Trenton - No matter which way you frame it, what you just said in essence was that you are okay with the demonizing of minority culture by the dominant (white) culture. As for being allowed to live whereever we want - let's not reduce this to mere sentiments. Of course, all of us want the freedom to traipse all over the glove. What we're trying to discuss are the reasons we don't have this freedom.

I'm okay with something if there is merit to it, regardless of black, white and brown. I do not see more merit in white culture than in brown culture. You, on the other hand, act like there is no such thing as cultural difference between black, white, and brown!

Divya:

I said nothing of the sort. Completely inappropriate of you to suggest I am "demonizing" anyone.

Well Trenton, if I say that in the US minorities are forced to shed their identity and you respond by saying you do not see any differences, what does that suggest?

Divya:

I do not accept the premise of your argument. Moreover, I am not prepared to write-off America just yet.

Case in point: I have a dear Indian/American friend who was born in the USA but her parents were born in India. She is so proud of her Indian roots, her Indian heritage...yet at the same time she is American. Not only does she speak Hindi, Telugu and English. She also speaks French to boot. To suggest to her that she has had to "shed her identity" is a quite ludicrous and outlandish notion.

My best to you.

Trenton - You have perhaps never visited India and therefore cannot imagine the level of diversity. You would otherwise never speak of the US in the same breath.

Being a cultured person, i.e., speaking many languages, and having eclectic forms of knowledge are not the same thing as embracing cultural diversity. If you drive a Toyota and eat sushi it does not mean you are open to Japanese culture. If you adopt the Japanese way of going-about in the world, (reverence to elders, not coming directly to the point, sense of honor)and if you accept their way of going-about in the world, that would suggest openness to other cultures. Here, in the US, any other way of going-about is considered wierd.

Crikey Divya, you never let up!

Firstly, I have been to India and adore the
place, especially Kerala state.

Secondly, if the United States of America is rubbing you up the wrong way, then do something about it. Get involved in the political process, earnestly express your views and run for office!

Okay Trenton, I give up. You have a way of ignoring the thrust of the matter so it's no use pursuing the subject. But I did not say the US is rubbing me up the wrong way. It's their country and if they want a monolith that's up to them. But that doesn't mean I'll let people get away with saying that it isn't a monolith. Specially those who imagine India has something to learn from the US in matters or diversity (not you this time).

Trent & Divya,

Please calm down, both of you, I think you are getting a bit carried away here while this tussle is getting absolutely no where.

Respectfully,

Ron.

Don´t panic Ron!

Nothing wrong with a little lively and robust language. Btw, I am a very calm person by nature. How could I not be when "Wings of Desire" is my favourite movie....

MUMMYYYYYYYYY , TRENT AND DIVYA ARE FIGHTING !!!! :((((

Looks like my last entry, championing the merits of French citizenship, are being made to look rather foolish, given current events in France:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1636671,00.html

Looks like my last entry, championing the merits of French citizenship, are being made to look rather foolish, given current events in France!

I seem to have dropped into this debate very late. Going through all the posts all I could think of is that there is way too much hate in the world today. This hatred is passed down through generations in the form of "culture" or "heritage". All I can propose is to stop passing this down to our future generations and let them decide for themselves. Perhaps they can coexist peacefully where we have failed. Maybe I'm just naive but if so then so be it!!

Last but not least...Nandita I love your work.
Cheers!

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