Goddness,is he right!!

How interesting, I just received a letter from my CRV-group, where one of the Swedish researchers studying parapsychology describes the way in which organized groups of skeptics frenetically try to sabotage both discussion forums and any TV programs attempting to prove that remote viewing and other paranormal phenomenons are real. It seems that there is an organisation here called VoF that was formed in 1982, with the main purpose to discredit all researchers and research studying parapsychology.
It's a long and interesting letter, but I can't post it without his OK. He wonders if it's about politics and money interests... whatever it is, it's about ignorance and fear of the unknown.

Deepak and Rupert, you're not alone. Or better said, any of us who is meeting with resistance is not alone :D:)

Deepak,

I am confused weren't you the one whom once professed that people spend 90% of there energy trying to convince other they are correct? Why put a stick in a beehive? First you criticize skepticism, then you post the opposing view point. In a way I do not understand the purpose of this blog is it to create more awareness, or is it here to create controversy.

Kind Regards,
Tom

I have noticed much to my distress that people in the field of "consciousness studies" often do not have the same rigorous standards of experimentation, documentation and proof as those employed by the natural scientists. In this regard, the scientist Vilayanur S. Ramachandran stands out as he seems to be the only one positioned to be taken seriously and not be ridiculed for taking up something like "Consciousness Studies." Perhaps his methodology and professional success has something to do with it although he does mention the bane of skeptics too. It is an uphill battle. Perhaps like-minded people should form some sort of a guild, set standards, lobby for their rights, etc.

Here is an interesting transcript of Ramachandram from a PBS interview.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2812mind.html

Seems like this Michael Shermer character,
does not know good manners, nor gentleman's courtesy, for that matter,

for as I read this has little to do
with academics,

With love and Passion,

Hi Deepak,
I am surprised you are not chuckling at these skeptics. You are a gifted writer and speaker. The wisdom in what you are saying comes across--don't let the little guys get you down!!!!!!!!

The study of "consciousness" can be done two ways. By purely scientific methods or by mixture of philosophy and science. Whatever the second group does is nonsense. In fact, this applies to all aspects of life.

DEEPAK:

As I was reading your post I couldn't help but wonder why there isn't a television show, some forum, that would actually reverse the trend being set by National Geographics and other media outlits.

I think it would be hilarious. Quite entertaining. To see a skeptic come on first and haphasardly attempt to prove his points with the zeal and fanatacism that most skeptics have. And then to have a "man of science" come on to show his "proofs" in the calm dry manor that most men of science have. I'de stay tuned to the next episode. It would be better then "Survivor". (Must say though I've never seen and episode of "Survivor").

I wish the other sciences would follow the lead of Physics. Multiverses, We may live on a "Brane" and the next universe may be a millimeter away, quantum entanglement, time travel and teleportation, all of these ideas are taken seriously until they are proven wrong, not until they are proven right.

Deepak, as long as you are trying to tell the scientific community that you can bend a spoon with your mind (that is without touching it) you will never be taken seriously.

Ah, the old 'swift boating' technique.

Still no facts here, just slander and opinion. I will debate you any day - I can see just from this letter you are not knowledgeable in logic.

Hi Divya,
That is a fascinating transcript!

This portion especially caught my attention:

V.S. RAMACHANDRAN: "If there is one thing about our existence that we take for granted, it's the fact that we have a body. Each of has a body and you give it a name, it has a bank account, and so on and so forth. But it turns out even your body is something that you construct in your mind. And this is what we call your "body image."

Now, of course, in my case, it's substantiated by the fact that there really is a body with bone and tissue. But the sense I have —the internal sense I have — of the presence of a body and arms and all of that, is, of course, constructed in my brain. And it's in my mind. And the most striking evidence for this comes from these patients who have had an amputation and continue to feel the presence of the missing hand."

This reminds me of something Deepak has noted, and others too: you are not in the world, the world is in you.

Here, here - to fun and playful discussions. And patience is a virtue that can be practiced by skeptics and scientists alike!

smiles,
~~ K

Ditto, Skeptisch.

I am completely open to believing the spoon can be bent. Personally, I believe that the power of the mind is incredible and hardly tapped into by most. But for the life of me, I can't understand why this cannot be demonstrated in a carefully monitored experiment that passes the rigors of scientific scrutiny. Even if there is some sort of a Heisenberg like principle at play here (viz. the observation affects the outcome) it can be studied more formally and with application of the scientific method. All is far from perfect in the scientific method yet it has come to be from logical consensus and more rationality that most other systems we have in place today. Those disputing it must work within the system to change it.

As for the media, I think the popular US media are the most *unscientific* of the lot. Look at the clowns Larry King brings on, so-called psychic mediums who showcase their wares using some hyper-emotional and vulnerable victims. Scientific American represents a niche; one with high standards and a lot of credibility. It is natural that they dismiss stuff when the proponents don't try to set up a rigorous forum and scientfically designed experimental setup to establish their claims.

I have encountered baffling and mind-numbing non-emotional personal experiences that leave science wanting for answers. But no one studies these formally with a critical mind, when there are clear grounds and the opportunity to do so. The world's greatest scientific leaps have often occurred with the complete disapproval and in-your-face skepticism of mainstream thought, yet they were presented within the system that outside of it.

Hi A.K.
Reading your post just now, makes me ponder .... how do we scientifically study: spontaneous healings, gut instincts, intuition, comon sense :)

I have discovered, there is power in intuition. Where do you locate intuition? In the brain, in the body? In the non-localized field of intelligence (Deepak has the most wonderful way of saying things - wish I could say it so well :)

Skeptics - can also be be thought of, or considered as ... dreamers. And I really like how Kermit the Frog sang about 'why are there so many songs about rainbows, and what's on the other side' (The Rainbow Connection)

So to Marek, I ask - can you post the lyrics to that song. :) Thanks!

~~ K

A.K.

We are an ignorant nation. Since creationism remains a story, the New York Times reports that in a recent poll 42% of the public agrees with the following statement: "Living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."

I dunno, I've voted for an independent candidate the last few elections so I have license to harpoon both parties. And have. Ignorant citizens elect ignorant leaders, it's as simple as that. So maybe it's not the politicians who suck; maybe it's something else. Like the public. This would be a nice realistic campaign slogan for somebody....

"The public sucks. Elect me."

Even my candidate these last two elections, Ralph Nader, wouldn't run on that one though. And maybe that's the problem.

But to be fair, and to show that even I am not above it all, if everything really is the fault of politicians, where are all the bright, honest, intelligent Americans who are ready to step in and replace them? Where are these people hiding? The answer to the question is, they aren't hiding. They've sold out, or bought into this bullshit corporate election process. Why effect change when you've figured out how to make the system work for you?

It makes me laugh when people tell me that my vote for Nader cost Gore the election in 2000.

Geezus....talk about sleep-walking sheep.

Pardon me... I've posted the above on the wrong thread...

Thank you.

You're pardoned, Art :D:P

Torbjörn posted his letter about organized debunking of RV on his discussion board, so here's the link if anyone is interested http://www.tenthousandroads.com/wbbs/WBB.cgi?board=rvgenl;action=display;num=1129671634

This really reinforces the old adage: "Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see."

As far as the media is concerned... it's a human thing. The media is made up of people from the top right down to those of us who allow it into our existence. When you boil it all down, the media is simply a reflection of how we human beings create our own reality.

When we shift our attention away from the problem, and begin to pay attention to the solution, the solution will emerge - and the media will reflect the change.

Woodward and Bernstein didn't believe everything they read or saw either. Their healthy skepticism made a huge difference, so, good point, Bo.

I think skepticism and doubt are as sacred as anything else. They till the soil for change when we're ready for it.

Behind every deeply held belief is a need; and to me, this is what must first be challenged.

If we *need* to believe in something fanciful in order to support our faith then we are merely clinging to illusion. But the same can be said about any *need* to dispute the miraculous as well.

The true benefit of miracles is not that they offer us hope but that they disrupt the barriers of doubt we bring to our reality. For this doubt is what ends up obscuring us from seeing what's actually possible in the first place.

So while I personally love the weird and wonderful, I feel we should hold on to it gently to these discoveries, for our fierce defence of them merely betrays our doubt. Not our faith. After all, the truth naturally welcomes inquiry, where the spiritual and the scientific share in their discovery of what is, by enlarging our appreciation and understanding of it.

Very interesting letter and viewpoint from Rupert. It hadn't occured to me that people would be reviewing and/or negatively commenting on books and research that they hadn't read or were not at all familiar with. Silly me! I agree with Rupert that allowing replies would be more balanced and a heck of a lot more interesting.

Love, Kristin

"The Truth dosn't need our defense, only our desire to discover."~Tod

Sitting on the the floor at the Wood Valley Temple I heard the young rinpoche say, "All phenomena is empty."

Since everything of the mind is just a concept perhaps we should go beyond the mind.

Go beyond the mind
Beyond all thoughts to silence
and to what is real

MIKMIK:

Exactly what did you mean and to whom were you addressing you comment?

K:

Funny. Just 2 days ago I was explaining to my daughter the idea that some people that loose an arm continue to try and scratch their hand. It was in an attempt to explain the power of the mind.

It's great to watch her face contort as her mind feeds her information that I will never receive in this carnation.

the beginning of this year I embarked on a 3 month futile endeavor of cleansing. Stomach bacteria, intestinal and brain parasites, gal stones and blood. I was reading a variety of literature. At one point I spoke with my father, a very informed "old school" medical doctor. He asked, "Why are you doing a parasite cleanse?" "Do you have parasites?"

I responded that I read about the cleanse on the internet and the author sounded like she knew what she was talking about. He informed me that not only do we have beneficial parasites but that if I wasn't feeling anything that suggested that I needed to do a parasitic cleanse I shouldn't mess with these parasites. He said that they have been around a lot longer then humans and that they were much more sophisticated.

Immediately after I read one "raw eating" book and the author pointed out that although we humans believe that we own our bodies there are parasites that function in our bodies in a way that indicated that they believe our bodies belong to them. So in a way "our" bodies are not "only" ours. Our bodies belong to a much bigger picture then what we are aware of. (Rambling once again).

A.K.:

This Heisenberg principal should not be trivialized. I'm not suggesting that you are trivializing it. What I want to say is that in reading SKEPTISH's challenge and then your response is that the spoon bending, to me, is much like playing music.

You see if someone says a rock will fall to the ground when let go that's one thing. Outside of Buddha and Jesus I haven't heard claims of defying that one. But spoon bending?

I am a singer and produce musicians in the studio. Without fail the unrecorded performance of every musician I have ever worked with is something that can not meet tape. The moment you turn on the recorder the music is less. In a club I ran the owner even hid a recorder in the club. We didn't record every night. On the nights that he turned on the recorder the music was less then stellar. (Just one humans interpretation).

ART:

Not only is your post a whiff of something fresh, I found it somehow very appropriate exactly where it was placed.

I think that maybe the fact that money keeps the good ones from running is a sad state of excuse. Meaning I think your right. Why doesn't someone that could really run our country stand up and say to himself, "hell I don't have the money to run but that shouldn't stop me from being elected." They should certainly run with your slogan.

A very old and dear friend of mine worked with me at an international trade magazine in Manhattan in the early 80's. He was and still is a genius. One day he went to the ad agency and suggested that they run an ad upside down. They looked at him like he was smokin' somethin' funny. I must admit he was a heavy toker.

Today I was riding on a tram and I saw a Tommy Hilfiger ad with the name "regifliH ymmoT". I'm not effected by ads. I'm one of Harvard researchers 5%. I don't see ads. I wear the same cloths bought for me by various people until they fall off of me. Today I stared at that ad for some 30 seconds.

"The public sucks. Elect me."

I think it just might work.

I believe I may be a skeptic.

Dear Laurence,
And a positive skeptic at that! :)

It is a delight to read your sharing of your experiences, at different times and stages in your life - and to 'see' via this community of intent, to see the alchemy process going on! In each of us - it's so awesome.

You write candidly and with honesty of your experience. Thank you for your willingness to reveal, and for everyone here.

Blessings,
~ K

On my blog in response to Deepaks Skeptics...
http://iamblogging.net/archives/general/index.html#a000133

Heresy and Skeptics

Skeptics could be called Klingons because the cling to old belief systems.

Finite minds trying to maintain preserve outgrown boundaries. Perhaps they keep us from being able to walk though walls. Which is okay by me?

Pure heresy they may call it, especially if it is a threat.

What is Heresy?

A proposition that is, at the same time, a challenge to present understanding, current beliefs and a challenge to power.

"If we keep others believing the world is flat, the fear that they will fall off will keep them from discovering new lands and our sources for spices. We will be able to discover the new lands first and remain dominant in the spice industry. "

Do so called "authoritative" resources like to admit they are wrong? What does it do to their authority?

Is what they taught you about the world around you while you were in school correct? Is it unbiased ?

Activities of science are supported by, and to some extent controlled by, organizations such as scientific societies, agencies of the federal government and (to a lesser but non-negligible extent) by the structuring of universities and corporations into schools, divisions, departments, laboratories, etc. These organizations in turn need respect from their competitors, approval from their colleagues, support from the public and favorable press from the media and economic support. Any scientist who jeopardizes the good standing of these important scientific organizations may, knowingly or unknowingly, weaken organized science and thereby hurt his fellow scientists. In this way, the issue of true science is converted from one that is purely intellectual to one that has sociological, political and economic consequences. Such issues perceived as heretical may be so because they involve a combination of political and economic ramifications.

If a researcher finds a cure he must find another job which may be difficult and the institution gets no more funding (not in it's best interest).

Why is it that there is so much disagreement between scientists?

Motive, desire for a particular reality or fear of a new one?

Dear Lawrence,

In 1998 I began having stomach problems; it was blamed on stress; here's an nysaid says the docs. Things worsened, a tablespoon of food; was like eating a whole turkey!

Diagnosis, ulcer; culprit being a bacteria known as: Helicobacter Pylori(mutant bacteria from the helicobacter family(1987-discovered as human carcinogenic; man's ONLY known carcinogen)

Shortening the version still; IT got worse; shortening more; I could not eradicate it, with many treatments; and within six months, my digestive system shut down. My stomach lining is more than 2/3 up my esophagus, trying to repair acid damage. I have atonic and atrophic gastritis and esophagal disease(dead stomach disease.)

6 months after my diagnosis; I"m told I would possibly develope the big-C within 2-5 years time; my decline would be that, of a patient with Aides; and ultimately die from complicated phnemonia.

Although, shortening more here; things have changed with declining effects; I am happy to report, I am in my 7th year; and NO Big-C!

Well, I don't know if I do or don't at this point actually. Shortening further; I NOW, refuse treatments. I won't become a vegetable for science and the medical worlds.

I had to take up to 13 pills a day, to digest food. I had to take up to 3 pills a day for pain. I had to rely on anti-depressants.

I became, polluted; and convinced the cure is what will create the cancer; not the disease.

I suffer, because pain is intolerable to any human being; it's hard to detach from pain; if we cannot detach from pain; how does man expect to detach from ego? we cannot!

Anyway, I mention this bacteria dear Lawrence, to bring awareness to YOU: that perhaps you should research body cleansing a little further; and realize, that the cleansing itself; could "loosen" the awakening giants of the bacteri in our human body.

Please, consider the choice; with foresight?

North

OOps, I just re-read your post Lawrence; and NOW see; you are skeptic about cleansing? I am embarassed; I thought you wanted to try it; I read your post too fast; saw cleansing, and went into - inform them mode!(sometimes the phoenix of truth can be a burden)

OK< then MY personal "disclosure" is for informative measures(Ooh blushing here!)

ON a critical note; I no longer take ONE pill unless necessary. I've developed glaucoma from the bacteria(no treatment) chronic fatigue syndrome; my body is doomed; not being negatory, being honest and true here. IF I can't handle the pain, I take 2 acitominophen, NO codiene!

OK, I'm starting to sound like Mr. Cruise, aren't I? In a little defense of some of his Scientology "beliefs"

I got Hep-C from a blood-transfusion OR a cute little butterfly tattoo(89); both were done within weeks of each other. IT was NOT until 13 years after the exposure, two weeks or less, before Christmas; that I was notified with a dear NORTH letter, informing ME that a blood donation I'd had frozen(AB+) was tested positive during the Canadian Red Cross scandal. They waited 13 years(2001) to inform me/ and test my old sample of plasma(frown.) I had to follow a real stringent course of action from there!

Anyway, the self-disclosure of course, is a lesson I'm trying to example for people!! Don't pierce, don't purge, don't tattoo. AND, be aware of who/how someone; even a nurse/doc is sticking a needle into you!

BE AWARE! is all I'm saying. Always, in all-ways, be skeptic of anything; because anything, has a flipping side(wink.)

For instance, I've been dissected just about every social way possible, b/c I've been celibate so long(ahem) no boyfriend in 14 years(hello!) because of my "beliefs" that love plays a part, in the sharing of my life and body with a man(so shoot me, new-agers, I won't whore for desire, ok?) Hey, my body is a Holy Temple, and will NOT be tarnished, by the desires for flesh; when life is so much more.

Point being made: little did I know, I had Hep-C! IF I had engaged in new-age desires of the flesh as we see today; then I'd have infected maybe one man; maybe two? God knew, my inner Spirit knew, and believing in Spirit as such; saved a possible spreading of the hep. by me. I've never used a needle, never done those things; I got it innocently. and yet, I am socially condemned with junkies.

Always, scrutinize, every darn thing; before doing it!

Always, stick up for your TRUE Self, because nothing else really matters. Your true self; is the way to peace, and harmony, tranquility at home, of mind/spirit, etc.

What I find disturbing however, is how society has come to turn their backs so vehemently towards anyone disabled, celibate or has a religious belief(sigh.)
North

NORTH:

Thanx for the opening!