"In an amoral universe (is it ?) where does morality stand, and whose morality is it anyway ?"

What this preamble of question(s) has to do with your story?

WW

Shekhar,

You totally lost me on this one. I simply don't get it!

Sorry, friend.

I get it. It is just business and is it a moral? I think we can all rationalize anything, spiritual or not. The question lies in if the soul can sleep at night? If yes at some point we must be connected to the center of the universe and all connect but if not... I think we must evaluate the path we walk.

Namaste,

Shekhar,

I did my engineering from a college located in a remote village of Maharashtra. There are a few families that make their living by selling country liquor. Towards evening, people gather outside the house of these families. Pots are emptied in measured doses. Almost everyone in the family, including teenage daughters, serves the brew.

Villagers told me that these families are God fearing, traditional and members of the family don't consume alchohol.

Similarly, in the now infamous ladies dance bars of Mumbai, if you go during puja time in the evening, there will be loud chanting as in a temple and the thick smoke of incense will almost choke you.

The contrast is amazing.

i had just written a small article sometime back on the banning of dance bars in mumbai. its a very similar situation wherein the society sadly looks down upon these bar girls. the problem is with the people running these bars and not the bar girls. its just a profession for them as for anyone else.

Shekhar, I did blog about the usage of the term morality sometime back after discussions with my friend. In fact, it depends on how the term morality is used. Whether it is used in the descriptive way or normative way. If the usage is based on the descriptive way, it comes as a package with religion (will use religion than spirituality though both are sort of interlinked).

Aloha Shekar

I would look at the memory like a dream where I am every part of the dream. I am the idols, host, waterbeds, mirrors, each of the family members, kitchen, daughter, past and future guests of the motel, business to support family, credit card, aunt, uncle, friend and Dharma. In untangling the hierarchy of the dream, the portal would be the child. The child being the portal the awareness would be that we are a very young species. My thoughts then towards the father would be kinder, where he wouldn’t have to justify his behavior in my memory. That would be my Dharma, Love patty

Read about how a 10-year-old blind son of a gardener in Bhopal taught a lesson in advertising ethics to the Voice of America and also about My mother's 22 rooms. Click on the link: www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com

What Wonderful Humor Shekhar!!! It was a blast. Two sides of the same coin? LOL!! My God! What wonderful family dharma and what wonderful world Dharma! Nothing wrong as long as you are open and don't hide it. This is where Hypocrisy comes in at its best, especially amongst the Indians in such areas...and you are a master at bringing it out!!!

Thanks for the great humor you brought to this site....Sachin

suresh nair - thats exactly the point. What u do does not neccesarily get defined by who you are. The real intention behind action seems be your spiritual self. But what about the contract killer I met in Mumbai that is an avid devotee of hanuman ? 50% of everything he earns goes to the temple. There lies the contradiction between spirituality and morality.
The contract killer believes that what he does is his karma. Shekhar

Shekhar - the converse is true as well. Who you are does not and sometimes cannot define what you do. I think the more important issue here is human agency (or lack thereof): if you have the freedom to choose what you do, then the implicit assumption is that you have the necessary ability to judge the consequences of your choices (actions). I must confess I'm not entirely convinced of the juxtaposition of spirituality and morality - does it follow that one should complement the other? Each can exist mutually exclusive of the other. By this I mean, in the name of spirituality, what one does cannot be judged by the criteria of moralty and vice versa...example: Machiavelli's Prince. If you do something for the right reason (using a set of moral criteria) then it cannot be morally challenged on those grounds because it was intended for the highest good, even if that good was self-serving to oneself or harmful to another. Aristotle said something interesting...every action in pursuit is said to aim at some good. that is why the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim. Just thought I'd put those thoughts out there.

Why do we look at morality & spirituality as two separate entities? If I understand right, 'spirituality' is not just about going to the temple, prayers etc. It encompasses morality too.

Shekhar,

What does decorating a room with religious statues have to do with being spiritual? We can decorate all we want however it is on the inside where it exists. And what does having a room built for have to do with immorality? Whose morals are we talking about?

Its up to the individual to follow their own ideas of morality, we begin to suffer when morals are imposed on us that do not match our own. What is & offensive to one may be quite acceptable to another.

I love the Hindi story of the holy man and the . When the Holy man died he had a magnificant funeral with many morners, however never made into heaven, because he was so judgemental of others behaviour & he thought so highly of himself. When the prostitue died she died a poppers , however was granted entrence to heaven because, she loved the Holy man whom she admired for his dedication to rituals & purity. Not to mention all the Love she gave to others through her profession.

Keep the peace!
Tom

I feel there is a contradiction everywhere when it comes to morality..becoz spirutuality in Indian terms is defined as a set of rituals ..as long as u uphold these endless acting of mindless rituals everything is fine..most of the dacoits (they do exist !!!!!)in northern india kill innocent people saying tht they do to appease godess kali..

´Shekhar,
You totally lost me on this one. I simply don't get it!´

Dear Cherry,

Girl! I´m still don´t know wheter or not you can bake me that applepie..;)

Anyhow, on
spirituality and morality,
spirit is what you are,
morality is what your EGO DOES,
for as judgement and labeling,
belong to one´s ´conditioning´,
as in fixed responses to certain phenomenae,

Love, Passion, and an applepie..

Hi Shekhar,

Morality comes with spirituality, spirituality comes with our EFFORTS AT morality.

Obviously, Mr Patel has yet to go through many layers of self-deception to reach at his real self and real spirituality - and hence real morality. To each one his own cross!

Harb.

Hello Shekhar and Everyone,

Look at our President, a man who considers himself very moral and spiritual, after all, he always proclaims that Jesus is his saviour, yet look at the way he ran his political campaings, underhanded is putting it mildly, the war in Iraq, misleading the American public, telling them they were in imminent danger when they were not.

True morality and spirituality come from within, they are not something that is imposed upon us, it is something we grow into as we mature in mind, body, and spirit. We are moral because we have discovered the morality in our own nature, we are spiritual because we have discovered the the spirit within, but until we discover it within.. we cover our bases, a prayer here, a little illicit sex there, afterall, we must survive in the world before we can master it!

´Morality comes with spirituality, spirituality comes with our EFFORTS AT morality´

Let me help you out a bit, and a legal/philosophical input,

Spirituality transcends morality,
morality is totally subjective and relative or
in other words ´in the (Karmic) eyes of the beholder´
morality is judgement, condemnation,
the critium is the ´damage criterium´
Everything goes, unless you cause damage,
that may be material, physical and or psychological,
It is a withdrawel from a ´negative´ cause and effect,
while in spirituality, you just accept what is,
and utillize the Laws of (Good) Karma, Giving,
so that is a ´positive´ criterium, to ´add´ instead of ´not take´,

And that leads to Dharma, purpose and or your unique talents, with effortless ease, and so on,
the rest of the Spiritual Laws,

With Love, Passion, Cherry do you have a blog, dear..? ;)

That Was Hilarious Shekhar!! You're terrific at bringing out the Contradictions and hypocrisy!!

Sachin

Eeeeeeeeeeks! what was that! Shekhar pls dont write just becos u have nothing better to do. The heading seemed interesting and I thot u would come up with some insights ( i dont really read you as you often dont say anything new), but your post was not only badly written, but also was meaningless. It didnt explore a damn thing. Neither morality, nor spirituality. I am amazed how people read such stuff and take it further as if it is some profound words of wisdom. And btw, why would anyone show a room to have sex to two men! unless he was sure u guys were gays! I think u just made it up. At least come up with a better story! And if i may ask, what is bothering u, ur spirituality or ur morality!

Dear Shekhar,

Morality is subjective. Are you saying that sex is not moral? If I have sex in a hotel room with a mirror on the ceiling does that mean that I am not spiritual? If I own a hotel and I know and/or even encourage people to enjoy having sex while they are staying there, does that mean that I am not spiritual?

I guess I don't understand what you are saying...

I was reading today about authenticity and how we are not authentic. We talk about nonviolence - preach nonviolence but we are violent. The example given was to observe how you look at your servant and also how you look at your boss, how you look at the rich person and how you look at the poor person. If there is any difference at all - then that is violence. We aren't really seeing them. We are seeing our bank account, etc. In your story, when we look at each of the characters... is there a difference?

It's an interesting question don't you think?

I've been thinking a lot about acceptance and also about not manipulating/not selling/not trying to force my agenda upon others. I'm coming to the conclusion that when we try and force or sell or manipulate anyone --- even for their own good (which is a lie, because it's for our own self that we manipulate) that there is a violence to it. Do you agree?

Love, Kristin

ps. Perhaps you are mainly speaking of "right livelyhood" and how the way in which we make our living matters in the world?

Hi Shekhar,

Your post shows me that morality is a construct...it is completely tied to your point of view.

You walked into a room and realized that the room was geared toward couples interested in sex, and automatically, due to your background thought that it was immoral.

On the other hand I might walk into that room and think how nice it was that Mr. Patel made a nice living renting rooms that encouraged people to make love and love each other.

Morality is a point of view in many cases. I would look at Mr. Patel's business and think he was doing a service...people left there happier and closer to their partners.

Peace,
Scott.

PS - Kristin...I remember that room with the mirrors :0)!

Dear Shekhar,

Interesting post. In my opinion, spirituality and morality are independent of each other. Spirituality is a contract with the God or the supreme consciousness or whatever you like to call it. Morality is a contract with humanity. So there is no direct relationship between the two.

Ravi Kulkarni

Scott,
OMG, I can't believe that you said that on the internet! That was not me. I'm much to pure for mirrors on ceilings. ;)

Love, Kristin

May my smile be mirrored to All.
~~ K

it is so delightful, to read and share, from the many facets of Oneness.
:)

Kristen,

How 'bout threesomes? Just wondering where the morality & draws the line.

Jim

Dear Shekhar,

I liked the post. Paradox!

Keep it up.

Love, Bo

Nope Jim...we don't do threesomes :0).

Scott.

´I liked the post. Paradox´

the paradox is, that there is no paradox,
just social hypnoses..or indoctrination..or hypocrisy..or conditioning..

There is a field beyond all notions of right and wrong.
Come, meet me there. -- Rumi

On pri mordial level..or QP..what is just..is..

Love, passion, and the Law of Detachement

Marek (great post).

All,

True morality is a biproduct of identification with Spirit. If our internal reference point is Spirit then we naturally do the things that are most nurturing for ourselves and those around us.

If on the other hand, we are just obeying some set of rules that someone wrote down because we are afraid we will be punished or castigated by our society it is not true morality, because we have done these things out of fear.

I know this is a little off the original subject, but it seemed relevent to me.

Peace,
Scott.

Scott,
true, though don´t forget the mind-brain-body
connection,
look at nature, cruel as hell!
(just like the human, don´t you agree?
see your nearest hospital or court for reference)

The point is on brainchemistry level, for as
every thought is a neuro peptide/hormonal cause and effect set in motion, cortisol, adrenaline and so on,

To judge, or point of focus, meaning attached to events is therefore a very ...response-ability

Love, Passion

What the hotel owner does as a business to earn his living does not define him or his family. Simple as that. 'Morality' just complicates things. The contract killer or the prostitute in the dance bar serves a purpose in society, as much as anyone else. A person's job does not define who he/she is.

In the movie 'Satya', the killer/gangster is just another guy with a dream of making it big who comes to Mumbai looking for a job. Its just that the Mumbai he comes across does not encourage his ambitions too well.

Hello All,

IMO, this is completely and utterly mindless nonsense. I am sorry for being so crude, but this's what I think.

Hope you all have a better day!

Debby.

This is a quote from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (haven't read it for like 17yrs. may not be exact)--Quote is "What is right and what is wrong--need we ask anyone to tell us these things?" I think the answers to these questions lie inside of us--as we become more spiritual we become more "moral". When you find spirit, you find right and wrong.
To answer the question, was that your friend's Dharma--I don't know the answer to that. But it sounds like you have a strong feeling that it was and you can probably trust that feeling.

Morality is not complex in fact one measure covers everything.

**Help create a good experience for everyone, don't create bad ones**

Anything else is judgement.

Looks like this hotel owner was very moral trying to create a good experience for those that stayed there.

Marek
Your thought processes are so lofty and up there in the clouds. Whatever you are doing or taking to keep them there[applepie/polish fannie,coffee-shop leaf] keep doing the same,do not go any higher or us poor earthlings will lose you.
Wishing you leaf baked apple pie .
Peace.
Sid Harth.

There is definitely a duplicity on the life of the owner of the motel.

Morality defines what is good and what is bad. Most of us do not like these two terms and claim that the universe is amoral. HOw does one define good or bad? What brings human beings comfort is good and what not, is bad. As we can see, it is relative - as what brings comfort today may not bring comfort tomorrow - and largely depends on the system of production. The specifics of the morality may have to be revised from time to time. This will happen naturally without any particular intervention by any authority. HOwever, the essence, - what is good brings comfort - will not change.

If creating good experience for everyone - without any reference to outsiders - is what morality is all about, then should not we be creating good atmosphere for Osama to operate as he wishes so that he can be happy or for thieves to act as they like?? IS this not thoeretical obfuscating?

What one does clearly defines what he is. Encouraging people to have sex is not immoral. But here the intention was not just that, it was
to make as much money from people who was looking for a comfortable place to have sex. The objective was not to encourage people to have sex but to compete with the peers and make as much as possible.

Is satisfying a customer bad?

Then the next question will be: Can we imagine Gandhiji running that motel? The main features of a motel maintained by a saint will not be like what Shekhar seen. And that will reflect the personality of the owner.

Sprituality and social life can't be contradictory to each other,
or independent of one another. Essentialy, the two are just two features of the same organism. It should go together, can't be mutually exclusive. For example, one need to be honest if he/she is on the path. One can't be a crook and spiritually advanced at the same time. Being honest is definitely a part of morality. The reference point for spirituality and morality should be internal. It is not just because we are afraid of police, we do not steal. Even if we are sure that police will not catch us, we will still not steal. One should not reduce morality to just a set of rules for controlling human beings in the society.

Marek
Your thought processes are so lofty and up there in the clouds. Whatever you are doing or taking to keep them there[applepie/polish fannie,coffee-shop leaf] keep doing the same, do not go any higher or us poor earthlings will lose you.

haha,
wohaha,
No worries, mate!

I do believe it was Sid Harta himself, who was
with one leg leg in higher realms and with the other firmly on the ground..,;)

Love, Passion and some good spiritual vibrations

Dear Shekhar Kapur HAPPY DIWALI TO YOU AND TO YOUR FAMILY TOO GOD MAY BLESS AND GIVE EVERYTHING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WISHED FOR IN THE NEW YEARS TOOOOOO
I wish that we have a lot to do and share for the world betterment rather than raising any controvercy's on the moralities or morality
Iwish you again and may say its to individual to individual differ and every-one have their version of a side of their explaination.
But I will say be human and never judge anyone and be fair and live in peace to make others to feel they do will correct themselves if the question in discussion were to be talked say in your humane .
And I know it wont work but it works well atleast it wont show but very defenitely improves in others attitudes.
GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL IN THIS DIWALI AND THE COMING NEW YEAR
I SINCERELY
PHILIP JOSEPHS SWAMY
I really have some seriuos issues to talk to you dear Shekhar Kapur and to partner you for better future to see and to make and to do that difference in this fast changing world in which many are just inhuman and i really cant blame them but its a disturbing factor and it has got a serious side dear Shekhar Kapur
will you try to contact me or write to me i DESPERATELY AWAITED FOR YOU
PHILIP JOSEPHS SWAMY

I did not have time to read the responces after reading this article. But, can you say the same a drug dealer, or even a mercinary. The family you are mentioning are not hurting anyone.

What do you think?
Adam

bachaao

"your post was not only badly written, but also was meaningless. It didnt explore a damn..."

Shakhar is a man of wisdom. He says profound things. If someone does not understand him, he is not to be criticized. See how Tyan, Marek and many others here love to read what the bloggers and the readers say and get enlightened by their spiritual and intellectual thoughts. Be patient. Give the man some credit.

Who is moral?
Who is spiritual?
One can be both, one or none at all.
If we do good karma and dharma
we will merge with Him...

Love
Tanzan

OH MY GOD!!!

Spiritual or Moral? :)

Quotes a funny - like religions. Everyone just wants take what they are comfortable with.

If I had a 14 year old at home to feed I'd be working at Wal-mat instead of sitting here typing this.

I try - usually don't achieve - to make my whole life 'who I am'. For best or worse.

Somebody is observing you and your dharma too, Shekhar..:)
I remember when your movie MASOOM was released and I would leave no opportunity to recommend this film to any and everyone whom I met, and then, one day someone told me that MASOOM was a plagiarized version of some hollywood movie. And immediately this question started kicking me why a sensitive, intelligent, philosophical, imaginative guy has to succumb to this?
Being a Shekhar fan, for many days I supplied lot many imaginary answers to myself..lol

From immorality outside (in our actions) we evolve to immorality inside (in the form of our thoughts). It is only when we evolve beyond immorality from even our insides, from even our thoughts that we reach spirituality. The last stage is, however, the stage of the Way. Here you will go beyond even so-called spirituality and see the divided world again. Then you will act spontaneously. If any of your actions is considered immoral by any accepted standards of society then it is time those standards are changed according to the new paradigm.

Many here may have heard about the three stages of Zen: Before studying Zen rivers are rivers mountains mountains. While you are studying Zen, rivers are no longer rivers mountains are no longer mountains. After you have studied Zen rivers are once again rivers mountains are once again mountains.

Spirituality is the second stage. Masters and sages belong to the third stage. In the first stage you act on things as a slave. If you drink you drink as a slave. If you indulde in sex you indulge in it as a slave. In the second stage (of spirituality) you do not see or do these things. But in the third stage you may do any of these things according to your disposition but you will be doing these not as a slave but as a master. Only masters can really celebrate life.

Harb.

Fine,
after readin the name of shekhar Kapoor and title related to 'morality and sprituality' im must read it.but..fu... this is d way of a great director to narrrate such imp.(not 4 me atleast) subjects.neway.m New here.n liked it dat Shekhar narrate his experience just like i did 6 years back in my note book, when i was 17.
Very innocent u are Shekhar.

THIS ARTICLE OF URS REMINDS ME OF A MOVIE - THE LAST SUPPER- a black comedy, its a movie about 5 friends - all LIBERALS who IRONICALLY poison politicians and priests and others such who have a point of view, which is different from ders. Till de invite a ultra conservative politician who dey are planning to poison over dinner turns out to be someone totally diffeerent from what he is on de screen. As a conservative politician - which is his profession he agrees with the church and hence looks down upon gays and so on and so forth. However in real life it turns out that he is very liberal by nature.

"My kitchen is who I and my family are, and the Motel is just my bussiness. It's what I do to take care of my family. Which is my Dharma". THIS IS EXACTLY THE STAND HE TAKES sayin dat being a conservative politician is not something he likes being but he has to do it for it pays him to do so and dat too well so dat he can take care of his family for that is his greatest responsibilty and job!

Now, Morality, in the strictest sense of the word, deals with that which is innately regarded as right or wrong. The term is often used to refer to a system of principles and judgments shared by cultural, religious, and philosophical concepts and beliefs, by which humans subjectively determine whether given actions are right or wrong.

I believe dat this universe is amoral in de sense dat what we do ie our actions are often not guided by what is right and what is wrong but what we want and need and desire for in life.
And hence morality is subject to an individual and his wants and it is his/her morality.

however,this would change only if the word 'I' doesnt pertain to a single person but to the people... it should be I - THE PEOPLE and then as the poem goes "The mob--the crowd--the mass--will arrive then."

Shekhar,

Your blogs have more deeper meanings than they look at the surface, and it appears many readers miss it and find something or the other to ridicule. Shame on them!

I think you can make a movie on this theme. One does not need a single story for the entire movie, one can instead use 4 or 5 related segments -slices of life- on morality and spirituality. You have two segments already, one in the main section of your blog and the other in your comment. I can send you other segments if you feel like developing this idea into a movie. Each segment may run anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes. The movie goers can draw their own conclusions at the end of the movie. You do create imagery in your writings and I feel I already see the shots on Mr Patel, his family and his business.

Regards,

Tanzan Senzaki

kallis - yes there was a film on the same theme as Masoom in hollywood called Man, Woman and Child, which was released 6 months after Masoon came out. Not before. Shekhare

Much ado about nothing! This is the conclusion that I've come to after reading Shekhar's original post and the replies so far.
Shekhar seems to think that running a motel designed for sex (as he puts it) or lovemaking (as some others would like to put it)is immoral and that's why he wanted to stop his friend from booking a room there. He was mistaken.
He was mistaken earlier too when he formed a good opinion about the motel owner just on the basis of the religious pictures and symbols present in his home.

Then he says, "My kitchen is who I and my family are, and the Motel is just my bussiness. It's what I do to take care of my family. Which is my Dharma". The point Shekhar wants to drive home is that it's all right to have an "immoral" business just because one has to earn a livelihood! Firstly, I don't believe that the Motel Owner's business was "immoral" and secondly I don't believe that it is Ok to have an "immoral" business if you are "moral" in your kitchen. How can you bifurcate your life into two parts? One for your business and one for your kitchen!

I would have expected a famous and respected movie maker like Shekhar to come up with a better thought of piece than this. Instead, he just posted many contradictory and incoherent thoughts in his piece. Maybe Bachaao is right when he/she says that Shekhar just made up this story and it never really happened.

Out of all the posts here, I find the posts by Guruprasad and Dulcie the most intelligent ones. Shekhar, you must read those two posts again.

And then a debate has started about spirituality and morality. If you are "trying" to be moral, then you are certainly NOT spiritual. Coz morality is nothing but a set of Dos and Don'ts given to you by the religious preachers. If you are truly spiritual, your actions would automatically be moral. A truly spiritual (enlightened) person automatically realises the difference between right and wrong and hence, does not need to be told what to do.

Cheers!
Navin

That is hilarious! I worked at an online hospitality careers company and in my search for owners of Motels, every single one was Mr. Patel and I was puzzled. What is up with that?

yea and they were different Mr. Patel's, not the same one...

LOL at Tanzan's comments. It is obvious that he is using flattery to get some work from Shekhar.

I quote him "Your blogs have more deeper meanings than they look at the surface, and it appears many readers miss it and find something or the other to ridicule. Shame on them!" Tanzan, my dear, you are shaming the people who have ridiculed Shekhar's piece. Why shouldn't you be shamed for ridiculing them? LOL.

You are starting a chain of negativity which will only boomerang on you......try and meditate a little to get in touch with the real you first. It will help you in drafting the movie segments which you want to write for Shekhar.

Cheers!

Hi Shekhar,
I wanted to know how does one get into the list of Contributors? Do they get some special invitation or something?

Enjoy your weekend
Navin

sorry to step into the fray,
the blog was more a question
no moral judgement of Mr Patel.
the question :
how possible is it to seperate yourself from what you do ?

For who u are is a spiritual question
And what you do lies in the ambit of morality

shekhar

Thanks for clarifying your stand, Shekhar. In my opinion, it's not possible to seperate yourself from what you do. If you are doing something with full concentration the act becomes a meditation. In that moment you become one with the act. You transcend yourself.

If a dancer is dancing with full concentration and enjoying the dance, the dancer himself/herself becomes the dance. If a singer is truly singing from the heart, he/she becomes the song in that moment. You get identified with what you do. Becoz what you do is a part of who you are.

A contract killer cannot claim that contract killing is his profession and he is a spiritual person otherwise. That would be a lie. A spiritual person just cannot be a contract killer. If you have become enlightened, it would be impossible for you to do something to hurt others.

I think one should not "try" to be "moral". Forget everything about being moral. You will be missing the point if you get stuck with morality. Just be spiritual.......forget everything about morality. You take care of the Pounds and the Pennies will take care of themselves. Laying emphasis on morality would be like trying to cure the symptoms. Cure the disease, not the symptoms. If the disease is cured, the symptoms will vanish by themselves.

Cheers!

Hi Shekhar, and Navin,

It is possible to separate yourself, the beliefs one professes to believe in - and the actions one ends up performing. Just look around you, see the world scene, see in your own country, politics, see in your own communities, where issues are discussed. Notice business practices, hear and read the stories. Notice in your own self, where the contradictions of beliefs and actions sometimes collide.

So - it is possible to say one thing and do another. It is possible to be quoting scripture, and profess to practice the Golden Rule, and not show this in your behavior.

That said! :) I do believe one can rise above the opposites. As you say, Navin - in moments where we 'merge' completely with an activity, like dancing, or meditating, or singing, we transcend our duality - and in that moment, if only briefly - we are Whole.

So, I would think the most compelling question is - what is the tool/technique/practice - that best helps one to rise above the opposites, and live Life. To see with clear awareness.

The 'real' secret is to understand, and know - there is no cause outside yourself. Religions and moral codes attempt to point the way to how we should behave. BUT - ...
to be continued ...
:)

Blessings,
~~ K

p.s. Shekhar, how have you/are you - able to resolve the 'challenge' of spiritually/morality within your own understanding and actions?

Love

Dear K,
You missed Shekhar's question. He had asked, "how possible is it to seperate yourself from what you do?"
And I quote you,"it is possible to say one thing and do another. It is possible to be quoting scripture, and profess to practice the Golden Rule, and not show this in your behavior."

Ofcourse it is possible to say one thing and do another! LOL. 95% population of the world does exactly that. But is it possible to separate yourself from your actions? Is it possible to say that you are a spiritual person if you earn your livelihood from conning people? That is the question Shekhar had asked.....and the answer to that is a big NO.
If you say one thing and do another, then can you avoid being called a cheat? You can't. You cannot separate yourself from your actions and say that "I am a conman by profession, but I am spiritual at home". LOL. That would be ridiculous.

And then you ask, "So, I would think the most compelling question is - what is the tool/technique/practice - that best helps one to rise above the opposites, and live Life. To see with clear awareness."
There is no "tool/technique/practice" which will make you a Buddha. You are either AWARE or you are not. There is no gradual process which takes place. Awareness comes in an INSTANT when it has to happen. I hope you experience it in this lifetime.

Cheers!

Dear Navin,
It is a great joy to be at Intentblog, and to share and dialogue! I grow in understanding and awareness, by this process!

Thank you for being part of this, and to all who bring their knowledge, experience, insights. It becomes a kind of alchemy!

I stay open to the possibility of Instant Enlightenment. I have had moments, when I have 'merged' and felt no separation, in activities you mention in your post. And in moments in Nature, and when I have closed my eyes, and still stayed Awake :) Yet, felt complete and peaceful in the moment.

I am finding, that to transcend, and get to the Buddha state, one must get past thinking. Deepak has written several articles here, about the levels of consciousness, that we as humans experience, to help us grow, and then transcend, our beliefs, and limitations. Until, as you say Instant Awarness happens. If it's not fleeting, it's the Real Deal :)

One challenge of communication, is semantics. Words can only point the way. I think that is why I like stories and parables. They can illustrate great truths, not easily shown in just words. (see, it's even challenging for me to find the words to make 'sense' :) :)

I walk this journey, to Wholeness. No separation.

Thank you for sharing.

Blessings,
~~ K

the question :
how possible is it to seperate yourself from what you do

Everybody's talkin' something very shockin' just to keep on blockin' what they're feelin' inside

to be a human being and not a human doing
that is the (quest)ion

Love, Passion,

Every good fortune,
Wives, friends, houses, lands,
All these gifts and riches ...

They are a dream,
A juggling act,
A traveling show!

A few days, and they are gone.

-Ashtavakra Gita 10:2

Spirituality is about who we are
Morality is about what we do

And thus morality like all of the above possesions is a juggling act...a dream. Spirituality lives on.

Thanks Shekhar, that was a good discussion.

On more such thoughts visit:
http://tathastu.rediffblogs.com

´Dont we all face this dichotomy in out lives to some degree ?´

To become aware is to transcend,
India´s spiritual teachings, pick a(ny) teacher,

Law of Karma,
Path to love,
Deepak Chopra

To experience: enjoy, learn from or to transcend that is the quest-ion,

and,
Three Core Concepts of Holistic Living from CwG:
Awareness
Honesty
Responsibility
Neale Donald Walsch

Love, Passion and good spiritual vibes,

Shekhar,
You ask, "how possible is it to seperate yourself from what you do?"

I think that's a great question, because who you are is not what you do - and until we are firmly established in the experience of our true nature beyond name and form we are necessarily tied to our actions and the illusion of separation in this world.

In general, meditation is how we separate who we are from what we do. Specifically though for each of us... I think we have to find our own way.

Obviously, the paradox is that once we realize who we are is not what we do our actions are spontaneously "right" in each moment. They become the most evolutionary (and although the interpretation will always be subjective - probably the most "moral" too.)

Love, Kristin

Philosophy is speculation. Zen is participation.
Don't just speculate. Participate.

"For who u are is a spiritual question
And what you do lies in the ambit of morality"

its quite possible for a person to exist as 2 different entities - one for ur own inner self and de other for de world wer u earn ur living.

dharma is wat u do becasue it is ur responsibility and it is dis which falls under de question of morality .

karma is wat comes back to u - good or bad from ur doings in this world and it is this karma which is a part of spirituality.

After hearing the concerns of the Kalamas, the Buddha
replied:

"Come Kalamas. Don't go by reports, by legends, by
traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by
inference, by analogies, by consistency with your own
views, by probability, or by the thought. 'This
contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for
yourselves that 'these mental qualities are
unskillful; these mental qualities are blamesworthy;
these mental qualities are criticized by the wise;
these mental qualities when acted on lead to harm &
suffering' then abandon them. When you know for
yourselves that'these mental qualities are skillful;
these mental qualities are blameless; these mental
qualities are praised by the wise; these mental
qualities when acted on lead to well-being and
happiness' then keep following
them."---------------Kalama Sutta

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Happiness is to make progress on the road to the
Ultimate Wisdom!

BUDDHA, "Stupidity is the mother of all suffering!!"

Welcome to the Stupidity Camp!!!

Not sure if Buddha was non compassionate enough to use such a judgemental word as stupidity. But agree that happiness is to make progress on the road to ultimate Wisdom.

And the progress on that road is possible only if you are unafraid to look into the never ending world of questions that are unanswered. To not look for simplicity of Dogma or of written statements or books or other people's Wisdom. Even Buddha's.

shekhar

Yes, I agree, Shekhar. Each human has to find his/her own path. Coz there are as many paths to reach THE ONE as there are people on the planet.
One can't reach there with second hand knowledge or experience....one has to experience oneself. The other can, at the maximum, point at a path..... but one has to choose and walk the way oneself.

I had asked you a simple question earlier, Shekhar. Maybe you missed that post. I repeat....I wanted to know how does one get into the list of Contributors? Do they get some special invitation or something? If you say that only friends & family of the Chopras and Kapurs can be Contributors, I'd completely understand. After all, you guys are paying for this webspace. :)
Is there a provision for us commoners to start a New Topic on Intentblog?

Cheers!
Navin

We must be unafraid to look within. We must fully experience all aspects of our being. I'm not saying we have to act out. But we cannot repress, because eventually that forces us to act out. We have to face and accept whatever it is that we most fear in ourselves. Once done, then we can know - through our own experience - and then we can keep it or let it go. Then we can choose. Before that, the point of choice continually eludes us. (And, that could easily be a definition of hell.)

Living life based upon someone elses experience, rules, morality or wisdom is not really living. It's borrowing. It's hiding out.

Who am I really? Not who should I be or who do I want to be - who am I right now?

Love, Kristin

Here is the problem of the human psyche. To distiguish Self, from self. The immortal Spirit, from ego's ever-chameleon, personality.

WE derive our existance via personality(ego). WE adapt and correct, build and perceive ourselves via "self-imaging."

To distinguish the difference between our Spirit-Self; the higher altitude of self-exploration must be explored of it's many segments and layers, to find One's True Self; that immortal nucleous of Spirit(Universe)that we each house within; and call: My Self.

What we show in action; is not necessarily a true projection of Self.

North

testtesttesttesttest

MORALITY IS THE GREATEST ROADBLOCK TO SPIRITUAL PROGRESS!!

This is my conviction! SPiritual progress hinges on a FREE MIND which revels in exploration. Morality or any code - creates a "ready-made" framework... which means that the mind is already bound. The "means" and the "end" are already set in stone. "DOnt drink and you go a step further to heaven"... or something like that.

A free mind is free from the past.. and can observe "What is" rather than contemplating on "What should be"... which essentially creates the observer-observed dichotomy!

Morality is merely about the world as we know it.. which "Relative". SPirituality is about the Absolute!

By merely re-arranging the relative coordinate .. you cannot get to the absolute!

That is PRECISELY WHY - ALL the three Gunas.. Tamasic, Rajasik as WELL AS SATTVIK are said to be part of the "Trigunmayi Maya"!

Good and Evil and the Neutral are all relative.

I have dealt with this subject more in my series on Spiritual thoughts at http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/217

Cheers,
- Desh
www.Drishtikone.com

To each his own..that is the views..but the views are of the mind..isnt it? the mind ceases at a certain stage..then neither spirituality nor morality exist! its all a thought...and discussion on something that is transient is baseless...at the end!.....

Mr. Shekhar Kapoor - I am from Delhi and cannot believe i could be actually writing a comment to your blog ...i am also not sure if you will read it...but its a strange thing! My instincts admire you.....i dont know anything about you except that i hv seen Masoom, perhaps read something about you..perhaps nothing....i am not your fan, infact you are nobody i know....still my instincts admire you. I am sharing this only because i feel its always good to share positive vibrations...in fact i hv already realized...it is HE in you or anybody who is being admired..so salutation to that HE who came in your form

It's easier than you thought. Both these items are available to the lowest bidder. I bid my dirty overgrown left toenail once a year for my daily dose of spirituality and morality. It's overwhleming.