nice post.

while I am in agreement with what you say, i have met many masters and felt enriched immensely by the interaction.

Yes, there could be a lot of paraphernalia surrounding them, but I have learnt to ignore that and reach out to the personality in q.

needless to add, it does not happen all the time.

I do share a special relationship in my consciousness zones with my master, it is very personal and sacred to me.How i have found enrichment through this interface is immeasurable for me.

elsewhere in the blog, you have mentioned autobiography of a yogi...I have also read a beautiful book called "Towards the silver crests of the Himalayas"...and many others...

A pattern I have read about and observed is about a master finding you to meet your need, if it exists.When the field is ready, the seed is said to manifest in these domains.This did happen to me...

In alternate systems of medicine such as ayurveda, the healing strategies are very person specific, not generic at all...The seeker of a cure and his personality and constitution is a very critical part of the healing processes.

I find the same analogy very evident in spiritual explores.Sometimes, we experience a sense of connectedness in certain spaces...and such spaces play critical roles in our evolutions.

What does it mean to be divine or spiritual, in my opinion?

Well, we are all divine. "God", "spirit" or whatever you call it, is not an entity seperate from all else, it IS all things combined. Every person is divine, for the are just facets of spirit. Spiritual, as i use the term in my own life, refers to thoes who recognize life as something more than a series of meaningless coincidences and actively do something, wether it be inner searchinig, reading, praying, whatever - to try to reestablish their connection to All-that-is.

I myself pull from a lot of different sources in my spiritual path. I'm very interested in religion, and if i hear something that strikes me as wise, I'll remember it, and the rest i let slide on past - I'm not very goode at stomaching dogma. These days, I'm very into "new energy" channellings. Even I can't keep a straight face when I say it, because no one is more aware of how cultish and rediculous it looks than me. But when you are searching with the fevor i've always had, you're willing to try the craziest things (as history has proven to us). I went in as a skeptic, but once i listened or read, my heart didn't disagree, and didn't sound any bells. kryon.com & crimsoncircle.com (my main haunt) have been a big source of inspiration and life-changing ness for me these past few years, so i don't even care as much anymore of how cooky it sounds. It talks about how to de-hypnotise yourself from mass-conciousness and live up to the grand potentials of who we are as divine beings. Reading, watching & hearing the monthly channells are all free, which makes me have all the more trust in them. And never do they say "Believe what i am saying" .. they say "take what resonates with you and leave the rest".

A lot of people see what i'm into as the same thing as the stories you've shared. I've thought plenty of "What if this is just a bunch of crap? Or what if he thinks he's channelling someone but really he's just schitsophrenic?" Even knowing that wouldn't change my mind. What they say is what i need to hear at that time, or somehting in my life would prevent me from reading it, or i wouldn't feel the interest. I think that goes for a lot of the followers of the fame-diggin-gurus and the like out in the world. The spirits of the followers know what they are doing, and they are their for a reason, whether we on the outside can understand why or not. NOT that i am saying I don't think people should step in when they get really controlling and dangerous, but i'm just rambling on.

just my two cents :) I think i might have answered one of the questions, at least. Heh.

an afterthought:

personally, I am not against the selling and promotion of spiritual services;from times immemorial , guru-dakshina has been an accepted norm, but like any other service, they are delivery-dependant and would find acceptance or rejection there.And promotional and selling techniques would face the same..we find some very aggressive and intrusive to our liking and spontaneously reject some...a matter of our personal choices...

Dear Kavita,

There are 144 True Teachers on the planet and 12 Masters at all times. Last I heard 138 of the teachers are out of work.

(No students who are ready to be taught!)

You've heard the saying "when the Student is ready the Teacher appears"

There are unfortunately, as your post points out, a growing number of false teachers,and masters trying to lure students for their own personal gain.

The Real Masters don't deal with humanity!

Hey man, they 'hooked up' the Beatles.

But yes Kavita I know what you mean. I think many 'spiritual guides' be they Hind-(i)or(u)(?), Christian, Muslim, etc., are just what they are, greedy predators; everything seems to always come back to the money and power 'thing.'

I really like it (NOT) when Benny Hinn 'heals' the middle-class women with a stigma in her eye, while a million African babies die of starvation and disease every year. . .
(I am running to the phone to send in my donation to Oral Roberts right now so he can build that church God commanded him to build. . .)

And then I am not even of the 'social class' to attend the church he builds; go figure.

I mean there are so many 'Christian' churches here in America where I do not have enough money to buy the suit so that I could attend their church.

That is why my church is right outside my apartment building, out on the street where my drunken Indian brother is passed out on.

There is where my church is. . .

Dang Ameya, unleash that fury of free-thinking; glorious!

Peace

I tend to agree with Sundar. I've had some mind-blowing experiences so there's obviously something there. But what you say Kavita is sadly true. It's basically a racket these days.

I also found Ameya's post interesting. In my new age days I was game for anything no matter how hokey it was. The only danger with this is when we fail to recognize that a particular path has ceased to be of any use to us. Just because something worked at one particular point in one's life does not mean it always will. The trick is to recognize when it comes time to move on.

Thanks every one. I resonate in bits with every post here. I have met one person who was a Krishna devotee, in his 80s and came to a friend's house. I went very reluctantly, because of a huge work overload, but his humor, and wisdom completely enchanted me. I also read an excellent book by sadguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Yoga foundation called Mystic musings. Every page resonates with interesting thoughts on questions asked by people. You dont have to agree with every thing he says, and he doesnt want you to, but for me the key thing was, his answers and observations really got me thinking.
I'm meeting him in January. Lets see how that goes.
Personally I do what I hope most people do- take what resonates with me, leave what doesnt jell.
Sundar I agree with the concept of guru dakshina but balk at some of the greed I see and how people are blatantly taken advantage of..I have seen some of my relatives being duped that way..it is heart breaking to see the hurt and disbelief when they realize that the devotion and love they offered with so much faith was abused so badly.
An excellent point made by Divya is to recognize what served us at a particular point may not later. I feel that those of us who are able to recognize that we must continue to grow and evolve even if it means to pull away from all that no longer serves any purpose and embrace something that now resonates with us, are truly enriched along the way. It's a very tough thing to do because we are all creatures of habit and don't like change. Its unsettling to get out of the cocoon we have spun around us, but personally whenver I have gathered the courage to do so-the rewards have been immense
Craig thanks for your thoughts..jai gurudeva is softly playing in my ears as the memories of the beatles song comes rushing back. I had the pleasure of meeting George Harrison's lovely wife Olivia last month-felt kinda mushy and sentimental-the beatles span all ages and generations-thanks for reminding me..Ameya very interesting post. Continue to explore and enjoy the journey.
I would love to hear how your positive experiences changed you.

Dear Kavita,
Inspiring post...thank you for sharing.

The sources of best advice for me comes from many places (because nature gives it naturally, if we listen) and people...mostly children.
Sometimes, there is also advice or messages that come into being from a silent energy...very clear and very powerful. It is in experiencing all of these different flows One comes to realize how much we are all truly connected, in the small picture and the BIG one.

The path I travel now was very much the one I have been put on since I can remember myself...not sure what to call it, but I feel most comfortable and compelled to persue an understanding of exsistence, accepting everything as "is" without analogy or judgement and learning to surrender that which was taught to me by words.
There is something deep and divine in the sounds of music (bhajans, hymns etc...) that move my spirit. In the act of puja, offering to the fire, how the hand reaches over and releases the herbs and such for offering...swaaha, WOW! there is such a connectedness to everything in puja.
A person can become one in that place where there is no time, space or causation...just "nothing"

To be divine...I not sure what that means. I don't think it can really be described.

Eight years ago, I had my first personal experience of a Spiritual Master from India. We met, not in conversation, in presence of some unidentified energy. I was so drawn to this Being. Highly unusual situation, we have not met before or spoken to each other. The only thing I knew about Him was hearing someone say that He is a Sadguru, nothing else ~ no life story, no miracles...nothing, but as the car drove up the long pathway to where He was going to make an appearance, I quickly removed my sandals to stand on the ground with my barefeet to feel the earth that this individual was about to embark on. I can say with trust, this was a first! I don't know what came over me! I happened to be at this occasion because my Dad was asked to play drums for His arrival and we went along as accompaniment.
As the days ahead unfolded, just sitting in the same room with hundreds of others, listening to Bhajans played by this Being and hearing Him talk, I was cured of a excruciatingly painful cracked rib I incurred from a car accident years previous to this day. I just sat in the audience, didn't ask for a healing or anything like that...I wasn't knocked over my forehead and fell back for some guys to catch me while fainting...it wasn't like that. I just sat there and listened! Had anyone told me before this occurence that He was capable of curing such an injury, I would've laughed my head off in doubt.
It was unlike anything I've ever encountered in my life.

What I can say about this experience is,
when that passage of light is open, you come to know it...without a single doubt, there is no if's and's or but's. Most likely, you will not be able to bring justice to the truth of the experience with mere words because of the nature of its realm. It truly is not of anything we can really explain.

I can say this, my life changed noticably after this experience.

As far as "Gurus" in my life...everyone I come to know.

Namaste,
Cinda

i do not disagree with you , kavita...but personally, part of our growths and evolution does traverse through wrong choices ..taking responsibility is a critical part of evolutionary processes within...as is breaking patterns induced more by fear and other aspects...learning can be a painful exercise for some...but is never bereft of its rewards...

Thanks very much Cinda. Beautiful post. I enjoyed reading it and feel enriched by the faith and love I see in your post.
Sundar I agree with what you've said. Taking responsibility and acknowledging our mistakes,and learning from the missteps requires great courage again, but its also truly liberating and enriching.
Thanks for these words of wisdom

Sundar,
interesting point about how part of our growth is through wrong choices - and then taking responsibility. I can't say that I disagree with you. Taking responsibility is extremely powerful - and freeing. Making wrong choices happens to us all and I can recall times that I was willing to pay that price and times when I was grateful I didn't make the "wrong" choice.

Love, Kristin

Kavita,
You asked, what does it mean to be divine or spiritual?
I think we are all spiritual and all divine. So in a sense any one of us can claim it.

As far as darshan goes, I used to think that idea was silly and very strange. I used to think to myself, "find your own divinity within, don't try and get it from someone else."

Of course "it" is within. And yet, I've been around people who I believe are enlightened. They weren't necessarily the well-known ones and two of them who come to my mind right away I've only seen once, by accident really. It wasn't anything that they said or did that makes me say they are enlightened. It was just the shift in my perception when I was with them.

However, I do know what you are saying about people who make false claims and then try and manipulate others. I've gotten angry about that myself. But then, as Sundar said, even our wrong choices are learning experiences. Ultimately we are responsible for all of our choices. And I can't say from the outside looking in what anyone else should do. However, I do have a "manipulation" radar that goes off pretty loudly when I think someone is being insincere and has a selfish agenda. And it makes me angry. And yet, how is it that I have this "radar"? It's like what kids sometimes say to each other, "takes one to know one." I've been there myself. We all have really. Don't you think? Don't we all sell our souls in some way at some point and manipulate for personal gain? And the lesson is: Don't do it. The karmic price is a heavy one.

Love, Kristin

Oh, one more thing, Kavita,
On a slightly different note -
IMO what is transformational in the guru/disciple relationship is the love that the disciple has for the guru. So in a sense, it doesn't matter who/what the guru is.

However, as you mentioned about moving on... I think that a key turning point is realizing that the love you had projected outward was within you all along. So then, no need for the guru.

Love, Kristin

some lovely perspectives shared here..just to add; "intent" is a very critical part of the process of explores..when we explore with a "need", masters manifest; a ready eg that comes to mind is paul brunton...who met ramana, through a set of seemingly divine coincidences..
great masters themselves respond differently as they are able to fathom the "intent" of people who cross their paths...
the growth of the "need" as different from a superficial or casual explore can make all the difference...
i ams haring this out of a personal authentication where i met a lot of masters to address some "needs" within until my master just "happened" in my life...i would see it as a manifest of grace in realms of intent...

Thanks Kristin and Sundar. I think all of us have that inbuilt radar to detect the positive and negative energies. There are times we ignore the warning signals for various reasons..and you are right Kristin, doing what doesnt feel right comes with a heavy price. And you know it all along. Like my dad always says, in the end you are only answerable to yourself. While often our perception is colored by our personal experiences, I feel all of us can easily discern what feels right and what doesnt in general terms.
An actor I interviewed recently said he usually identifies deeply with characters that have shades of gray in them, because the devil and the divine resides within us all.
Sundar I have also felt that nothing happens in life by accident. The people I have met and who deeply impacted me the instant I met them, ended up playing a key part in my life. Some were in the background for years and then suddenly showed up when there was a need for their presence in a stronger way. Its a daily lesson, this emergence of a person, or some source, a random book or a music cd that is suddenly sent to me at a certain point..
I think I wrote in a previous post..if we look around there are so many miracles that happen around us daily. I think there are also daily lessons to be learnt, if we take the time to open our hearts and receive...

Belated Merry Xmas to all. Interesting post Kavita.

I dont know. I have a slightly different take on this. Whereas ofcourse there are many 'corrupt' Gurus but I think first of all that many of us end up calling people corrupt not because they are but because our perception is faulty, limited and conditioned in a particular way. Like they say over and over again, the Master cannot be understood by the disciple.

Secondly I feel that these 'corrupt' sages also serve a very important purpose. Your Guru is a reflection of you i.e. he is your potential. If you are being attracted to a fake saint it is because that same corruption and falsity lies within you as a seeker.

Everything we make contact with in life brings a valuable lesson to us. The fake saint brings important messages as well. I think they also serve the real masters by pulling the non-serious hoards away from them. Just my two bits.

Hi Kavita,

Intersting topic.

I spent some time with Acharya Meennakshi Devi, I thought she was pretty genuine, and she never asked me for anything. She invited me to the house where she was a guest at. It was funny because the event that led up to meeting her. First I had been browsing Deepak's book "How to know God" when reading the part about his visit with a saint I thought I would like to have that experience. So two weeks later I did all because someone got sick and Acharya stood in for her.

So I went to the house and wasn't quite sure what to do or how to act. So I just let it happen. She has a very nice voice and she sang and said some stuff, I was just silent.

She asked me do I have Guru, I said yes everyone I meet.

Do you have any questions she asked?

I said yes, do you think it is possible to destroy all the Illusion. Well she wasn't sure what that word meant. So I said like Maya, she wrote this down. She said "I think one cannot" I said "I think one can". Not that one would want to destroy all of it but a majority of it.

We were gazing into each others eyes.

I then smiled and said "You are me"

She smiled and said "Thank you"

Then it was if like we were not wearing any masks anymore and were pretty much ordinary people.

We then talked about diet and I told her about Amaranth and how it could end poverty, hunger and deficiency, other such such. I am not sure if she quite understood what I was trying to convey. Later I rpinted out information for her to take back.

Then I helped her with her issue with getting a visa from Japan and sending some emails.

During the weeks following that some very interesting supernatural type events occured.

Including this rare penny showing up that I had always wanted as a kid when collecting coins.

Actually it wasn't the exact penny, but it was a year or two off I think, but had the imperfections caused by a flaw in the die.

She was very active regarding Peace and Humanitarian efforts I would consider her for real. She was humble and no ego.

She invited me to India, but I have not gone yet.

But you know how it is, it is all you anyway, in the end.

Kavita,

Remember, I am no swami or godman or maharaj or whatever but when my book came to be understood a bit more deeply in a few years time your clan of journalists will make me one. Then the more I will hide the more they will find me out, the more I will say that I am no master or swami or even a spiritual man the more it will be looked as a sign of humility on my part and the more I will be elevated looool.

That is not to say that I do not want my book to be famous, I do not want to be known. I want to but for the theory which I have given in my book rather than as a spiritual something...

That said, I may also add here that we unnecessarily attach abnormal importance to any guru, swami etc. A guru is just a teacher no more no less. As there are different teachers for different classes in our general education so there are different teachers for different 'classes' in our spiritual education. And naturally depending upon in which spiritual class you are you will find a suitable teacher just by natural interaction.

If we are doing our masters we need not necessarily ridicule a teacher who is fit to teach a primary class. So all fit into the scheme.

I think one can go endlessly but this much is enough for now. Who knows I may again wake up at unearthly hours and then I will fill in the remaning blanks lol.

Harb

PS: Some after thoughts...

Journalists go to the people who first get famous, and then enjoy finding shortcomings in them. They should know that a real master will not bother for fame and may not get famous even in his whole life. So if any journalist is really interested in knowing something about this spirituality thing (and is not interested only in finding shortcomings as is usually the case for he too is after the same game of money and fame) he should go and find some such hidden gems.

Harb.

thats a very interesting viewpoint anusheh...i am sure kavita, that intents manifest every moment of our lives...i was just saying that, in my perspective, what manifests happens from a platform of our "needs"..whatever they maybe...

Hi Kavita

Yes, it does seem to be a human flaw, and it's not limited to spirituality, as I'd include Elvis Presley amongst the list of "gurus" in the US, in terms of his effect on masses of people (which continues even now).

I listen to all I can about spritiual matters, no matter what the source. But whenever I hear too many people shouting one name, my suspicious nature kicks in, and my instincts whisper "...fraud..." to me.

I believe what I feel to be true for myself, never fogetting that I am one amongst many, and that what I feel to be true for myself is probably not true for others. My path is what works for me in helping me to be successful in my life while not taking anything away from other people.

Cheers, Heather

Very nice comment anusheh & ameya. Also thanks for few interesting links ameya. ; - )

For me, spirituality is all about living with awareness. Being the witness of my physical movements, thoughts & emotions. And suddenly, one finds being in bliss within when one disidentify oneself from external elements.

And all true masters says, 'be light unto yourself.' So, i don't believe much in blind following & prefer staying away from followers. Sometimes i tried to be part of followers thinking i might be closed but then i realised that it's better to do my own thing, my own way !

oops!!

I forgot that i have long way to go, kavita jee. ;- )

I should better get a sports bike or car instead of sitting here & not going anywhere...sob sob

; - )

Cheers, Rohit

Hello Kavita and Everyone,

I am not a fan of Gurus. I think the Dali Lama may be a very nice man, but I am not one to call him his Holiness, if I call anyone his/her Holiness it would be Everyone. I love Deepak's writings and his perspective, he is a joy to read, but I do not think of him as a Guru.

I love to read and explore many authors and perspectives pertaining to spirituality and consciousness, and I use them all in forming my perspective.

What has helped me the most in my life and spiritual growth has been my family; mother, father, sisters, brothers, children. In taking care of and sharing this journey with them, they have been my real teachers. They have brought out the best and worst in me, challenged me to grow beyond my own self interests. I was one of ten children, there were many lessons to learn from each one of us in our struggles to grow.

I have always gone straight to the ONE, the Source, if I needed to talk and confer, in my younger years it would be me telling the ONE off, telling the ONE what a very bad job he/she was doing, now it is more of a Lovefest...I get it, at least some of it.

What is Divine, we are. The hardest thing about knowing your own Divinity is the fact the so many people around you do not see and feel it for themselves. There was a time I had no idea who I was, I thought I was Ruth and then I realized Ruth was just a cover to help me find my way home..peace ruth

Kavita,

From time immemorial India has been the land of spirituality and the enlightened.

All the sects of any society have a varied intellectual plethora. In a developing nation where most of the populace are struggling divinity plays a very important role. Divinity creates hopes...divinity inspires people....divinity builds faith....

And in a capitilastic world anything sells.

The structure of divinity purely depends upon the intellectual standard of the society. The more we grow intellectually the less divinity sales will happen.

Excellent point Sundar about learning from wrong choices. Sometimes I think that's about the only kind of learning I do. I seem to have learnt every lesson the hard way.

Another thing I've noticed is that some of the most solid, dependable, responsible, caring and loving people I know have never been to gurus, or read a single book on spirituality or diplayed any interest in the matter. I wonder if it's only a certain reckless type that are drawn to spirituality?

One day I came to realize that everything, absolutely everything I see is an aspect of myself. A human being perceiving through the five senses can only see reality through personal, limiting filters, we can only see what we are capable to see, due to the tools we have. Every single judgment I have about something "out there" is a judgment in MY mind, due to my experiences and the way I see life. My judgment about a person is different from your judgment about a person... and it has nothing to do with the person, but with myself.

The only clear perception, the one that lets us experience reality as it truly is, doesn't happen through the senses and is not a product of the mind, so it cannot be pinned down in concepts. It has to do with directly perceiving the essence of every being, which is beyond our judgments. The essence of every person we meet is completely pure and adorable. Everyone we meet beckons us to see who they really are. Every crook and criminal is saying... can you SEE who I am, beyond this? Can you open the eyes of your soul? Can you love me exactly as I am? Can you see we are one?

It is easiest to perceive this divinity for the first time in "someone" who already knows it, but the divine essence is in everyone, always. We can laugh and scorn personalities and ego schemes as much as we want, but that is all on the level of the senses... when we REALLY look at each other, all we can do is fall in silent adoration.

We know through senses, we know through feelings, we know through intellect or reason and finally we know through intelligence or intuition.

It is only when we come to know through intelligence or intuition - which is the highest (or deepest) form of knowing that we come to know one's real self. Then we see all as the incarnation of the same, single underlying Soil or Spirit.

Dear Harb, what you say reminds me of the five koshas in Vedanta, and I found them to be a good description of the way we perceive- we can stay at the level of the physical and "believe only what we see with our own eyes", we can open up to the layer of energy circulating in/inbetween us and see the subtle emotional interactions, we can then access the mental layer and perceive this one mind that we have, we can open up to our wisdom layer, where we have access to true knowledge that is beyond all imagined limitations and then we can meet in the bliss layer, at the moment when "you" and "I" are the same. Beyond that, there is no you and I.

Hi Kavita Chhibber! Such a timely post with virtually every respondent preceeding this, my own response, touching significantly the multitude of considerations for anyone "assuming" the role of a spiritual teacher--or Guru per se.

While finishing the last semester (last spring) of my most recent sojourn into the halls of college-level writing and public speaking-oriented coursework, at a local Junior College here in Colorado, I have anguished over my own years as one who "donned the robes" of one purporting to be reasonable capable of perfoming mediumistic readings of the traditional spiritualist's orientation--if that connotes anything accurately from the hodge-podge of New Age terminology.

You, and all the poster's here, have zeroed-in so flawlessly on the many factors that reveal the inner integrity of anyone claiming a worthwhile proficiency in any of the spiritual or healing arts (and these days--sciences as well!).

I have had a number of individuals who given strong encouragement, if not even fierce at times--saying I was "wasting my gifts I did not do so," let alone the practical everyday realities of "paying ones rent," so to speak, regarding the notion of going to the next level in doing "readings," with a fully-developed presence of professional stature; such as a formal website, 800/900 phone services, and especially going on radio stations and writing books on same--of which the later is actually in the early stages of materializing at this point.

My own ego has been the original instigator of such ideas numerous times in the past; and as always, led to an immediately recognizable sense of loss regarding the energy of the readings themselves.

Both in spite of, an in light of, my own ego's desire to make these "communications" serve it's self-centered "what's-in-it-for-me-purposes, ie. 'I'm in charge here!,' what I call "Spirit" would always override my ego--both for my own growth, but especially for the "just due" of the one receiving the reading.

In other words, just because my ego's "intentions," Spirit would not withhold "It's" energies and intentions in a fashion that would necessarily leave "the sitter" receiving an inferior reading just because of me, me, me being the centerpiece.

And so it has been magical anyway, in spite of me, as Spirit will move in at the most unexpected times, in the most unexpected ways, and arrange for a "communication to someone" in the most marvelous ways of spontaniety and synchronicity.

How does one put a "professional harness" on such a free-flowing mystery as the energy of Spirit, or Chi, or discarnates souls, etc. etc.???

It is not at all that I am against moving in directions such as those that have been presented by those who suggest an availabilty for a wider and braoder audience of recipients for these most delightful encounters, with thier uniquely wonderful flow of messages from "beyond the veil"; it is only that I have become more certain that such pursuits are only rewarding, in whatever fashions, if it is the choice of that God-within to do so; ie., as "A Course in Miracles" teaches: I will step back and let Him lead the way (refering to the living energy of the Holy Spirit--or whatever you wish to call that all-pervasive and Super-Intelligent lifeforce!).

And so Kavita, and the wonderful Intentblog family-of-souls, a most wondrous exploration you've directly engaged in here!

Kavita--you bring great honor and "proof-of-depth" to the otherwise "super-facial" Geminis of this persona-oriented maelstrom and caco-phony of egotism, for which I have spent much of my life being so exemplary in purpetrating upon this world; but....

.....I thought that you'd find that a most extraordinary love-story, known as "The Nine Faces of Christ," for which I have recently spoken of in other posts, holds that one "Jeshua, Joseph-bar-Joseph," a man who became a Messiah, according to this narrative accounting (based on the records of the lives of over 400 Avatars, Saints, reputed Mystics), was born on May 23rd of...(as near as I can calculate by one year--was born in 88-90 B.C., accounting for an 80-year+- discrepancy I've come across in other historical references to this time-frame)....well....

....that means this particular Avatar was indeed a Gemini--and recent revelations indicate this one may have also had "a twin named Thomas," others say maybe Judas Khretus could have been "his twin," although the "Nine Faces..." does not indicate this!

And not to "hijack" your post Kavita, but had to say "hey" to Kristen, Divya, Harb, and....well, you know!

Thanks for your most unique way of touching people individually, one at a time Kavita. "See you" soon Geminin-baby! Love--Dave
Just more imponderable "stuff" to ponder on! Hope I didn't offend anybody's sensibilities about such possibilities of what is "real," and what is not, too much.

Thanks every one. Very thought provoking posts. Anusheh, very interesting thoughts though I have to say most people I know, as a matter of courtesy offer their respects whenever they are introduced to a divine guru or mother. In India growing up I was always taught to show respect to any swami, or any elder that came to our house. I'm sure its the same with every one else. My maternal grand mother was a very well read woman and there would be intense discussions with swamis as I would watch quite entranced. A lot of families had family gurus just like family deities that they worshipped. I think the disillusionment came later when something went wrong.
I believe that a lot of us can indeed intuitively sense the presence of someone who is learned or enlightened but many times we also follow the herd mentality and do what others do.
I agree with you and others who have said that every negative experience also teaches us a lesson, and as long as we keep learning, it will bring better understanding of who we are and what we want out of life.
Swami Harb :) well said....I think this fault finding is not just limited to journalists chasing divine gurus and swamis..I see it in every walk of life when people try to pull each other down out of envy or jealousy. So I guess the divine and devil is within us. Rohit well written, and I think you are confusing me with Kaveetaa Kaul. I recall her, and not me telling you you have a long way to go, so I plead not guilty to that line!:)but by all means buy a hot metal contraption to speed to better horizons!
Richard, thank you for sharing that beautiful experience. It is always heart warming to hear such stories..gives many of us hope that there are enlightened teachers who are truly here to guide us.

Heather, you made a very valid point about Elvis. I see interestingly, many pop stars and celebrities refusing to take on the mantle of role model. Many state categorically, I'm not someone you should blindly ape.
I have seen teenage kids getting influenced by dark, heavy metal musicians and self mutilate, and do other self destructive things.Its interesting how everything and every one teaches us a lesson in life if we decide to learn. The tsunami and the earthquake taught me the transient fragility of life, my dog taught me about the miracle of unconditional love, the sun rising taught me how life can be filled with positive energy each day but also how so many things are beyond our control, that there has to be some higher power above us, and so on.
Ruth excellent post and I think I do have to say that the most enlightened people or learned people that I have met in my life have never professed to be superior beings. Barbara Walters recently interviewed the Dalai lama,who btw I just adore..his sense of humor and sweetess is unbelievable and I enjoy reading his books..so she asked him..are you God? He burst out laughing till tears came into his eyes, and said..today my eye was really troubling me and I have been so uncomfortable. look..and he took his glasses off and showed her a red eye, and added if I was God, I would have taken care of it right away! He said the best way to describe him would be as a teacher..nothing more nothing less.
Deepak is the first person to say he is a student still and learning. I think its always the people around many of the enlightened and the not so enlightened men and women who create the hype..I also see an interesting thing about some of the people I have interviewed..they are very different when they speak one on one..many somehow take on a different persona when they come before the masses and this is not just with god men but others who I interviewed. Maybe that is just their way to dish out what people expect them to..
Amit thank you-excellent points.I remember talking to a Jewish man called Robert Arnett. He has written an excellent book called India Unveiled and he said to me that he finds that divinity still exists in the interiors of India. Modernization is the price India has paid for losing some of it from the cities.
Hope and faith are key ingredients to keep us going through our struggles and often that is what many of the gurus and divine mothers offer. I do have to say there is very little that is new. All that is for us to learn has been given down in our books but as Divya pointed out else where some translations are awful and the truly learned dont know english. I feel many popular gurus teach yoga, meditation and speak of what has been handed down to us from our sages in a more comprehensible language and that is what sells them to people who listen.
Thanks Aurora and Divya for your input. Aurora excellent points. Divya I don't know if its only the reckless kinds or if its when people are unhappy, frustrated and looking for something to give them hope that they go to these gurus. I hear story after story from people who will say I was sick, or I lost money in my business, or I lost my job..and then this guru or Ma put me back on track. Truly content happy people though few never feel the need to do this. The people who go there often say they find happiness and contentment after they met their guru.
I usually go out of curiosity because I learnt long time back never to close my mind to any possibility, and often I have been pleasantly surprised or enriched whenever I have gone to hear someone speak or tried something new, or read an author I had never heard of only to find yet another hidden gem.
thank you all for your input. This has been very enriching and I'm going to re read all the posts when I come back and think some more

I had written a long response. I saw it on the main page but not here. hope it can be retrieved..am waiting on it.
thanks David..very interesting post, and your kind words.

Aurora,

Exactly. Only now I have opened the secret of those five koshas in my book. These are because of four basic interactions based on four basic forces discovered by scientists which we have to go through. Each force or interaction gives us one kosha. Last kosha is just spirit beyond all constricting forces.

Ok its there now thank fully. Hadnt saved it!yet another lesson learnt..save save save! before posting;) even the computer software becomes my guru today!

Harb, the bliss layer still has a trace of separation, of experiencer, so that would make five layers before complete merging. Would you care to shortly describe the four interactions/forces you have found?

Aloha from Hawaii, it is time for breakfast and I have yet to read all the posts, but before I eat and finding this a very interesting topic I would like to add this passage that was taken from a book by Ramesh Balsekar:

Question: But what can be done about the pseudo-gurus and the thousand of people who are influenced by them?

RB's answer: The fact is that thousands of people do go to them and this situation is itself part of the impersonal functioning of Totality, of What-Is. The question of a remedy is irrelevant. Whatever exists in the manifestation of Consciousness has to be accepted as a fact.
There is an evolution which proceeds from the sinner to the saint, from the disciple, who has not yet fully understood, to the disciple who ultimately gets the realization. This impersonal evolution is all that is taking place and the final enlightenment is not the transformation of any individual, but the transformation of attitude, viewpoint, the transformation of the identified consciousness into its impersonality.
The understanding dawns that there cannot be an individual to attain any enlightenment. Therefore, all one can do is go about one's business and let whatever happens happen. This is against all "usual" advice, I know, but there it is.

I don't necessarily agree with all that Ramesh said but found it interesting. After all if you want to try exposing a "false" guru is that not also part of the impersonal functioning of Totality, the Source, the Absolute, the Nameless?

Namaste, Bob

I will share a secret with you all.

Quite often when two "enlightened" ones meet, but not always, they will both burst out laughing if their eyes meet.

Because they both know the truth of the other as Self caught in pretending.

Thanks Kavita for rubbing our noses in the fact that religion/spirituality can look more official than it really is and that teachers can appear to have more integrity then they really do.

I thought what Harb said about different teachers for different "classes" made sense. And it reminds me that you can't really judge for another what they need.

However, I'd say that a gigantic clue that someone is not what they profess to be (in the enlightenment department) is when they take credit for your transformation or try and manipulate you in some way by playing into a need to be special. IMO people who are enlightened won't take credit for the transformation of others. And they don't have "special" students. If you can see through God's eyes you know that everyone is equal. Equally special. Equally worthy in all regards.

Love, Kristin

Lovely labels, as if to assume that someone who is in such a costume (robe, sindoor) would be the only considered "enlightened".
When I made my cd I made it totally folk style bhajan and some people said I should've worn a saree and covered my head or something for the front cover picture but I was like whatever I am just going to be the way I am.

Dear Kavita,

Thank you for this much need post. This pretty much summed up the past 31 years of my life and have had very similar experiences as you.

I'm decided that I don't particularly want or or need to have an intermediary between myself and the Divine, so I've just started to have more one on one time, conversations and prayers with God.

So far so good.

Again really appreciate this

Steve

resonated( its a word I have picked up in this space) with your share, aurora...the universality of the mind and its content, we tune in to some...and those aspects of the koshas shared by harb and you, the subtle layers..verifiable in our personal spaces...very real domensions in existential consciousness..
thanks to all...

"...what does it mean to be divine or spiritual from your personal perspective?"

I think it has taken me a lifetime to figure this out and still am. As an adult with many life experiences, it all sort of comes together each day. Believing in oneself is divine and faith in God is so strong to me now more than ever. That makes the spirtuality just be there.

Belief that there are no co-incidences in life and that everyone in my life is there for a purpose, even when there is one that I might NOT want in my life! I was just reading today a book by Brian Weiss who is the author of Many Lives, Many Masters. In the book I was reading, "Through Time into Healing" he talks of using past lives to figure out the now in our lives, very interesting!

Love of self is the divine and the more we can do that the more spiritual awareness there seems to be.

Love, Joanie

nice post,joannie...divinity..i prefer to call it sacredness...an eternally evolving space in consciousness..everything is sacred...thought realms can be divisive, dependant on perspectives,but domains exist where all paradoxes just dissolve in acceptance...these realms are also intrinsically joyous and love-filled, not cause-dependant...while remaining functional...

divya,
maybe adventurous is more apt...emerging from a desire to explore, while remaining centred...reckless is a matter of persepctive..sticking our necks out with a viewpoint can be reckless for some...to me, being aware of our vulnerabilities even as we explore is important...tx for some lovely shares in your space...

good post. we need more like this. we do not want to be cheated by fake gurus and Mas. People who cheat in the name of God will surely go to hell.
but how to find who is a cheat is a 64 million dollar question. maybe we should give them some test on the knowledge of Vedas or some such thing. what do you think?
these days anybody can become a guru and take money from us. shame, shame...

Dear Kavita,

I enjoyed this post of yours and thank you for asking these thought provoking questions.

Where do you get your best advice - GOD

, how do you choose your path - GOD

, and what does it mean to be divine or spiritual from your personal perspective? - DON'T KNOW.

As you can see, the 3rd question throws me for a loop and I cannot answer it without running in a circle. But I will keep pondering upon this one. Hey, does that make me a zero? I've read that being a zero is good, but I don't think it meant this :-) I'm more like the dog chasing it's tail!

Love, Char

Thanks every one. Rita I smiled when I read your post. A high five to you for sticking to your guns and being yourself. Joannie, very interesting post and Sundar interesting thoughts again. I felt an empathy with both. Ambasteve, glad that you are doing well..I guess even the 31 years of courting these people had a valuable lesson..you know now what you dont want in your life...and your own strength in that you are doing fine on your own. ..I saw some very positive experiences here as well with some of the teachers-I guess it all boils down to personal equations. LP, I wish we had a radar detector for gurus or should it be called a divinity detector:) to tell the true teacher from an impersonator, but alas even technology is at a loss here. Char, my ideas of what it means to be spiritual and divine may change from time to time with new experiences but the key values remain the same-..try not to cheat or lie or hurt any one intentionally..help others..I havent always succeeded in not being hurtful, but the magic words "sorry" and "forgiveness' have gone a long way in healing hurts and making me feel better myself.I personally enjoy reading books and have several journals where I have noted down excerpts from so many writers known and unknown, and when I search for answers, many times I find them in those pages..some are quite worn out now.
I also have a close group of great friends who are my sounding board. We have long discussions on spirituality, books that we have read. Joanie I have read all of Brian Weiss's books and a good friend had a very interesting experience as well, where he saw his future wife in one of the hypnotizing sessions Dr Weiss did on him..he met her a few months later and recognized her. He also saw her wearing a particular sari(Indian wrap around dress). When he described the sari, she went inside and broughtthe one he described. She had bought it a few months earlier and never worn in. She did wear it on her wedding day. She went for a session also because she was curious and saw some very interesting things. Makes me wonder about so much after I hear such stories..Thanks Bob, Richard and Matt for your posts as well.

Bob, Aurora, Tanzan,

I totally agree with Ramesh that ‘what will happen will happen’ and in fact this is the main, though a bit indirect and more detailed, theme of my own book. And which is why the world will take a bit more time in understanding and finally accepting it. Nobody likes to feel helpless on the face of the indigestible happenings in the world. (Of course we will be expected to continue to do whatever we deem fit like Arjuna but what will actually happen will, well, you know, depend upon Krishna – which is only another name for the inviolable ‘scheme of things’ according to which what happens, happens and will happen.)

Anyway, what will happen will happen (just as we as a system take birth, pass through childhood, youth, middle age, old age and then die without any say in it at this level) because the whole life/evolution of all systems comprises of their going through four basic interactions of physics relevant to their levels and no system can avoid it. Through our so-called free choices at our human levels we only facilitate/serve our going through those four basic interactions and nothing else.

It is because of our going through four basic interactions at the very base of our beings that we all have four alike phases of childhood, youth, middle age and old age. And like us, all systems may that be the universe as a whole, may that be the solar system, may that be the earth as a whole, may that be the system of only species on earth, may that be the system of species man alone, may that be any cycle of our culture, of our science, down to our individual cells, all, go through like four basic interactions and have four like phases with like properties if seen a little below the surface.

They or let us say, we, go through those four basic interactions in every second, minute, hour, day, month, year and ultimately our whole life such that they add up linearly as well as non-linearly to give us four according basic phases up to any point in our life as well as finally in the whole of our lives.

We pass through these four basic phases in what scientists call quantum jumps in the process of which each time we make a quantum jump we also touch our non-dual base. And at the end of each small or big cycle of four phases as above we once again also go to our non-dual 'blissful state' a little more pronouncedly(as we do once in each day of 24 hours in the form of deep sleep before starting on our dualistic journey on our next day).

Aurora, it is because of our going to the non-dual state once after each cycle of our passing through four basic interactions that we experience actual blissful state, and the blissful state we otherwise feel in our 'waking' or dual state is only a remembrance of our that real blissful state. It is like we will remember the experience of sex or love even though we will later cease to be in that experience. Some experience that blissful state yet unconsciously, some subconsciously, some self consciously and some fully consciously depending upon on which wheel of the wheels-within-wheels and on which rung of that wheel of the overall evolutionary advancement anybody is.

Moreover, Aurora, it is not I who has discovered those four basic forces, it is one of the major discoveries of the hard science in the last about half century. Scientists have discovered that all the numerous forces working in the universe can at the end be reduced to four basic ones, and that means that all the numerous forces are in fact only the expansion or play of those four basic forces.

And in fact, in the last about two or three decades they have been trying to reduce those four basic forces further to one single Superforce, under the name of finding the theory of everything or achieving Grandunification, finding which they hope to come to know the working of the whole universe in all its detail. For then, the whole scheme of things of the universe, according to them would only be the play of that single Superforce.

They failed because there began to come zeros and infinities in their equations when they tried to unify all the four forces further into one single Sueprforce as above.

Now as I saw it, I found that these zeros and infinities come because at the ultimate level of oneness or of Grandunification as they call it, as all separations will cease to exist, space and time which really denote all those separations will naturally become meaningless or non-existent, become zero or infinite in other words.

And I in fact saw further that science which came into play only when the One had become Two - the one who is to know and the other which is to be known – now cannot have anything to say when all again becomes one. I found that as such that Grandunification or One or Oneness of the whole Universe can henceforth only be experienced by somebody individually/personally and it will be only such person who will be able to explain the scheme of things in terms of that Single force further expanded into four forces if he happened to look into in that direction after his above experience.

And as I myself first had an experience of the basic oneness of All There Is at the age of about 28, and then how it all evolves from that Oneness onwards in terms of those four basic forces once again at the age of around 40, I myself ended up writing my book Self Designed Universe explaining the scheme of things of the universe in terms of four basic forces or rather in terms of one single Superforce. This in a nut shell explains my whole book.

I will explain the forces and how they apply to our day today life and experiences in simple some time later.

PS: Writing is an intellectual endeavor while the experiences I have had and explaining things from their point of view belong to the intelligence lavel. Where speech is rather the done thing (perhaps a bit of verse too). So excuse me I cannot be very systematic and academic in writing. Just as you may recall that not many people though otherwise doubtlessly leanred have written books. All they can do is speak on the spur of the moment which the others will recod and then make into books. If any body develops interest in what I am saying above he/she is welcome to contact me for personal talk. One will surely find that what I have written above does not constitute even 1% of what I can talk about. Anyway, though the time of it will surely come one day, this I know already.

Harb,
you are a learned man. In fact too much learned for the average reader here.

When 4 forces become one force what you call super force, will super force be God then? I mean, as all the 4 forces come from God, and now they are separate, but one day they will become one, and so, one force will explain everything. Like now we can use God to explain everything. Is this explanation correct?

Also then you say there will be no time and space. they will become zero or infinity. Can you explain what will happen then? Will the universe come to end then, because there will no time-space or there will be infinite time space?

If that is the case, then I think, scientists do not make one force out of four forces. Because it will be the end of the world then? What are your thoughts on this?

May be there is a 5th force there somewhere. And because of the missing force scientists are not able to put 4 forces together--they remain separate. Do these forces repel like the like poles of a magnet and do not become together? Does cold or heat effect these forces? For example in the sun, it is very hot. How are the 4 forces there?

Where from these forces come? I think Newton said pulling force comes from how heavy the earth and something falling from it in the air is. Like an apple falling from a tree- that is what I remember. i do not understand why a coconut and an apple should fall with the same speed on the ground from a tree, because a coconut is bigger and should come first. Harb, can you please explain this. And what is the force in electricity and in the atom bomb? Do these forces in the bomb make fire when the bomb falls on the ground from the air plane?

Thanks in advance for explaining. I am new here and will like to learn from you.

Hi Kavita,
on another subject...
I was happy when I saw your conversation with Tanzan on Shekhar's "you might be sued for reading this" blog.
Sometimes when Hannah and Josh fight there comes a point when Scott and I tease them to kiss and make up. If they can do it - it's fun to watch because all that had upset them falls away when they are kissing and hugging - and by then, giggling.
I know, it's somehow different for grown-ups because our lives are so much more serious. But still, it's fun to see friends find a place of connection again.

Love, Kristin

Kavita,
That story is so cool. I would love to have a session with Dr. Weiss. That would be awesome!

Joanie

There is no such thing as an enlightened teacher of enlightenment, either Advaita Vendanta or Buddhas enlightenment. Because if you were really enlightened then the world would be so O.K. as is, that you would feel no need to teach anyone anything...

I hear people say all the time that they couldn't do spirituality all by themselves that they need a teacher. Well, if you need a teacher then you are going to be at the mercy of other people solutions, and how can you trust them?

Hi Harb, thnk you for your explanation, I look forward to reading the succint description of the four fources.

I'm not into physics, but isn't the string theory already a step toward a theory of everything? As far as I understand, it is the first theory that finally applies to both macrocosmos and microcosmos.

Maybe we're saying the same thing here, Harb, but I think that scientists will one day find their equation. It's just that they will not be able to grasp/comprehend their own equation with the mind, but will have to go through the personal journey to experience what the equation will demonstrate. If I'm not mistaken, I think that physicist are already at a point where they deal with phenomenons that they can't really understand, and they seem really amazed and bewildered at their own findings. It is like science is going forward, straight to the meeting point with spirituality, if we people know it yet or not :)

Ultimately; when push comes to shove; regardless of one's upbringing in religion-learned concepts - we each will be made to rely on our own inner Godness within - to demonstrate our unity-power, as one source and force.

Meaning: regardless of the beliefs one adopts from birth; and/or later, as one ages; it is still and always shall BE; the nuclear-power of one's inner strengths and courages of their Spirit; which will guide, walk with, and demonstrate a lighter path through inner awareness.

Some people, maybe the majority in fact; will never actualize their inherent traits to implode their thoughts; to reach their maximum mind-ability. They are the one's whom follow other peoples thoughts and views; a person whom is aware, leads.

But, can a leader truly lead; without first experiencing being a follower?

North

I am wishing all of us as One,

A Happy Extra Ordinary New Year

I am intending divine, scientific discovery, supernatural, celestial, and in the sky events that will bring awe, mystery, and realization to humanity.

I wish the world to be filled with wonder so that we forget our conflicts and form a unity of consciousness.

May we find the innocent children we are inside and once again play the play of the infinite Being.

Thank you Kavita for your kind comments. Yes I learned some very valuable lessons, maybe one day I'll write a book about the teachers I've met. It was important for me to make a public declaration, so I'm so happy you created this opening for me to express this as I've really had to struggle this past year to let go of something that framed so much about who I was for most of my adult life. Well the sky didn't fall and the sun keeps rising in the east, so I'm very grateful.

Happy New Year to you and all the others who I'v enjoyed reading and for some raising my blood pressure, others make me laugh, others make me ponder big time.

Love, Steve

Thank you every one..with the holiday season, have been on the run all day and have a 30 minute window before the dance begins again! Harb, that was really interesting.I went over your post twice and can't wait to read your book. Joanie I believe Dr Weiss is too busy to do one on one sessions now and has trained people in different states, to continue his techniques and work. He does group sessions I think which seem to work pretty effectively.
Matt you've raised some interesting points. Steve, your post only reiterates what I have always felt-the answers are within us and we often undermine our own abilities and strengths. Kudos to you for pulling away from what was not jelling with you even if it took a year. I would love to read about your experiences. Hopefully it'll happen soon. Kristin, LP, Richard thanks.

North,
you made an excellent point. The leaders have to be followers to begin with and many are. Others just spring to action funding an opportunity. Though wisdom doesnt necessarily come with age:) I think the true masters go through years of searching and studying themselves

Harb sir, you are a learned man, with these words, I posted above few questions about 4 forces. Please find some time to tell us about them. I read in some thread another poster thanking you for the answer. I do not find it and I await.
Hope you answer sometime.

Interesting comments Kavita. It is always interesting to me to hear the description on guru's by people of their own nationalities. The same things happen here too with other religions.

The Virgin Mary on a flour tortilla, bleeding statues, fish everywhere. The search for the divine takes some in strange paths, and all the while it's tucked neatly inside.

Some of the phenomena you describe were things and practices that Buddha and Jesus objected to. Buddha refused all of the magic and Jesus (according to texts that were not incuded in the bible) became angry many times when asked to heal someone stating, "When are they going to learn they can do this themselves?"

It is however, good business. I could have slapped a fish and some greek letters on my business card and revived my massage practice but I was too stuborn to sell out to it. Oh Well.

Happy New Years to everyone.

Thanks Pam,
it was interesting to read your feedback and that you did what you felt was right from your persepective in your business. all the best for 2006

Perhaps Kavita I should have saved this for another posting, but this is so upsetting that I feel all should be aware of this late breaking news. North Korea announced that it's cutting off U.N. food, ingniting famine fears. Last time this happened, millions died.

Here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10631108/

This can't keep happening in today's world, what kind of influence can we provide to try to stop this madness?

Steve

This is very disturbing Steve. I'm looking at it now. I've just managed now to get back to the blog after a long day away. I hope every one will look at it. I wil forward the link to some of my friends in washington, one of them a Bill Emerson Hunger fellow who is also closely connected with amnesty international

Thank you Kavita,

If enough voices are heard, perhaps we can stop this from happening.

I also read that the food distribution facilities will shut down in a few days.

I don't want 2006 to start like this, and with your help perhaps this story can be stay in the front burner for some time.

Steve

Dear Kavita ... Thanks for giving us those examples of "Divinity." Love, Char

LP,

Thank you for seeing me a learned man. I am not very learned just had an insight into the cause of evolution, that is all. I even do not know much detail about forces. I just came to know them by chance around my middle age. I wrote my one and only book almost in a subconscious state. So my explanations too will remain wanting. All I can say is that my theory based on my insight is true in some simple way and will have to be accepted as such may be in some far future.

[When 4 forces become one force what you call super force, will super force be God then? I mean, as all the 4 forces come from God, and now they are separate, but one day they will become one, and so, one force will explain everything. Like now we can use God to explain everything. Is this explanation correct?]

Yes, correct. Religious people call it Soul, Spirit or God, Scientists call it Supersymmetry, Superspace, Superforce, philosophers call it Substance and so on. I have coined a new, common word for it in my book such that it will give voice to all the three. I have named it M.O.S.C or simply Mosc – which will thus be Matter of spiritual category for religious people, Matter of Supersymmetric category for scientists and Matter of Substantial category for philosophers.

[Also then you say there will be no time and space. they will become zero or infinity. Can you explain what will happen then? Will the universe come to end then, because there will no time-space or there will be infinite time space? ]

The universe of forms comes to an end. The universe of substance of which those forms are made will not. Moreover, that state of the universe is the state of rather BEING, you can only know it by being it, through self experience, it cannot be understood intellectually. A drop of water in a sea will first try to study sea as this much long, this much wide, changing this way and that (first is an example of seeing it in space and the other in time) but then some day if it will suddenly realize that it in fact itself is the sea, then it will know sea by BEING sea rather than by measuring or looking at its space-time. Similarly you will know the universe then. Space-time denote change, you will be that which changes. Space time and hence the universe in terms of that space time will seem to have come to an end for you but yet it will be there as you, your basic or 'noting' consciousness.

[If that is the case, then I think, scientists do not make one force out of four forces. Because it will be the end of the world then? What are your thoughts on this?

Scientists will not stop because of that. Scientists are just unable to make that into one force. Yes, if that happens what they are trying to study will come to an end. In fact all our efforts at knowing through reason and intellect will come to an end, of course, along with science itself. On a small scale it is like a male’s efforts at knowing a female. First he tries to know her simply physically by seeing her as separate from him and looking at her. Then one day he has a sexual intercourse with her. Then he has known her by rather being her, being one with her, in which all his previous modes of knowing cease to have any meaning. The knower, the knowing and the being known become one. The state of oneness of the universe is like that.

[May be there is a 5th force there somewhere. And because of the missing force scientists are not able to put 4 forces together--they remain separate. Do these forces repel like the like poles of a magnet and do not become together? Does cold or heat effect these forces? For example in the sun, it is very hot. How are the 4 forces there?]

Even some scientists have speculated about there being one more force though for me it does not alter the basic story of unifying all the forces. Trying to unite four forces into one is like trying to objectively arrive at a state of our deep sleep. Eventually you can know that state only by BEING that state. These four forces operate at different levels of fineness of matter. Those levels do not always change in continuity. Hence the difficulty in uniting the forces. Moreover, I know the general picture, especially in terms of their relationship with the phenomenon of evolution, for other details you may pl consult some hard science book.

[Where from these forces come? I think Newton said pulling force comes from how heavy the earth and something falling from it in the air is. Like an apple falling from a tree- that is what I remember. i do not understand why a coconut and an apple should fall with the same speed on the ground from a tree, because a coconut is bigger and should come first. Harb, can you please explain this. And what is the force in electricity and in the atom bomb? Do these forces in the bomb make fire when the bomb falls on the ground from the air plane?]

Imagine yourself sitting on the ground. Then when you try to get up the weight of your body comes into the picture and tries to pull you down. This is a simple example of gravity coming into the picture. Similarly, when the force of the big bang tried to shake off the matter of the so-called singularity off it, it reacted and the force of gravity came into the picture. Then when the same force of the big bang, in shaking off the matter further split it into atoms, and then further began to work through them, the second force, called the electromagnetic force which is really the force of attractions and repulsions between atoms, came into the picture. Then the same force of big bang went further deeper even into atoms and when it reached the level of its nucleus, the third force, called the strong nuclear force, came into the picture. This force of the big bang now pushing the atom from within its nucleus makes very fine particles residing in the nucleus to react to it and in their interaction with this force that strong force is born. Lastly, that same force of the big bang goes still further deeper in the matter, in the atom, in further and further pulverizing the matter and when it reaches sub nucleus levels an other force called the weak force comes into the picture. When the force of the big bang has thus gone through all matter, it gets dissipated and the matter again begins to unite or contract When it reaches to the limits of contraction, then again big bang happens and the whole universal process of expansion starts again, which in its wake creates the whole phenomena in the universe.

If you are further interested, you may find some paragraphs from my website www.selfdesigneduniverse.com interesting.

Thank you.

Hi Kavita,
In regards to your words..." I wish we had a radar detector for gurus or should it be called a divinity detector:) to tell the true teacher from an impersonator"

perhaps even the impersonator has some valuable lesson we can learn from.

My experience with the Spiritual Master from India(previously posted), while I was being healed etc...there were others in the same audience who were just waiting for the evening to be over to get out. So, the same individual I saw as "real" was also being viewed as a "fraud" by others.

Maybe it has not so much to do with the "master" as it has to do with the "moment for you" and the energies lining up, like the frequencies on the radio, to allow the message to come through clearly. I guess one has to at least turn the radio on, and make the effort in some way, before the energies can line up and flow.

There's a lot to be said about "just being there"

~~~~~
Kavita, Love and prayers to you and your family for a peacefilled and restful New Year.

Namaste,
Cinda

Hey Guys,

Missed all of you for the past few days. Motherly duties beckoned. My son is preparing for his prelims so thought it wise that he be accorded undivided attention.

2006 is soon going to envelop us soon in its warm embrace.I did not want to miss out wishing my dear friends here a year of fulfillment, inner tranquility, peace in all its connotations and a never before experienced bliss. May we all taste the nectar of Divine Love.May the intrinsic goodness of our innermost core manifest when it is most required, in sorrow, hurt, anguish, pain and grief. May all that is sacred, pure, holy, Godly and sublime be our guide and companion all through the year.May we radiate the brilliance of unconditional love and receive immeasurable joy in this giving.

So this is for Deepak,Mallika and Sumant,Gotham,Shekhar,Kavita,Rahul Khanna(present in spirit:)}and all the other bloggers whose posts have contributed towards making Intentblog truly unique.

My dear friends, David(my first and therefore special),LPB,Richard,Kristin and Scott,Geeta,Mieke,Aurora,Andaleeb,more recently,Dara, Harb Bhraji,North,Cinda,Ron,Matt,Kate,Sundar,Ispita,Krish, Simon.Forgive me if certian names do not figure.Blame it on pressures of home , hearth, family and work .Sincerely, I feel privileged to be in such august company. I am indebted to you all for being just the way you are.

Gosh!!If only the New Year Fairy granted us an opportunity to meet and revel in the joy of being together!

God Bless
Love
Kaveetaa

Hi Kavita; yes, we concurr; a leader is always first, a follower.

I also feel that, we as a human being transcend with the advancement of age; so too, often does a spiritual quest; begin to lead back to one's own self.

Ultimately, regardless of leadership ability; it is still "in thine own self be true." and even then; it is difficult to decipher that part of ourselve's which is the true? lol

North

Dear Kaveeta, it is nice knowing your absentia is due to wonderful businieness and family attentiveness; these in themselve's are such forgotten blessings..nice to see you enjoying the dance of life. lol

May your year; and Reiki sent to your son for his prelim's BE all good to go.

May it be in each one of us in 2006, to make a difference; thinking - peace and love - would make a wave of a difference.

North

When I was into advocating and hence researching issues; I'd guessed way back in 2001, that the North Koreans were sleeping giants, when asked on another site; who's likely to hit the USA next time, if there is one; a question posed, post 9/11 on a TV site.

IF memory serves correct in present tense; didn't the NK's just recently begin to pressure the USA Admin. for MORE supplies towards upgrading their laboratories?

WE look East, when we should be looking North? No, not -> me north! lol When was the last time, anyone has been allowed inside NK in how many years?

Isnt' this how NK's usually blackmail the world into relenting to their demands? A leader starving their own people is quite common, in fact; normal in the craft of warring. IF memory serve's right; NK refused access to NK, to UN officials for an per annum inspection?

Anyone have top news on this particular part; it was on the news only weeks or a month ago?

I have a magazine somewhere in a box, with the story on their arms arsenal, or rather remnants of; but, labs come to vivid mind, back in 2001ish.

The story did not paint a good picture; in the sense they have the cabability to create mass destruction, and hold the world's largest army; rumour is, this is why the world relents to their demands.

According to the story; they are very soldier oriented; and the population spend their lives soldiering; that's all they do, is play war-games; it is rumoured they have millions of soldiers. It also goes on to state, historicly; NK's hold serious, long-term grudges.

However; with the story were pictures that made my skin crawl. Such over-crowdedness, open, overhanging power-lines, hundreds of them strewn in the air above their heads, to posts and buildings; so decaying, it was frightening to be aware people lived in such impoverished, crowded conditions.

I wish I knew the whole story; but, there are reasons, for what NK is doing

--research-- top 3 magazines, Time, etc. !

North

for me a guru is person,whose company you enjoy and who helps you solving your life's problems.It can be your Mother,your Father,your Boss and even your children.And a good book can also be your Guru,whenever I feel depressed I run towards my collection of books,open it from anywhere and amazingly find my answer.
I listen to the discourses of a lot many gurus whenever I get a chance.From Ravishankar to Sudhanshu Maharaj,Asaram Bapu and Joyce Mayer.
Jis ki jo baat jam jaaye woh us samay ka Guru.
These days I have a lot of respect for Guru Ramdeo Baba,because he is helping people to reinvent themselves and leave a healthy life throgh Yoga.He is even God to so many people in India.
So, Guru is one who helps you in solving your problems.

Thank you every one for the continued participation. I did hear from the Hunger fellow in DC, Steve. He is quite aware of this and is already at work. Will keep you posted. Thanks Char. Cinda, good points. I sometimes feel that its our own faith that is capable of creating the miracles, maybe some of the divine gurus, other teachers help us tap that potential within us. Yogesh you are absolutely right. Its an individual experience. North thanks for your thoughts always valuable.
Harb thanks for taking the time to post a very thought provoking post again.
Kaveetaa, wishing you and your loved ones lots of love, good health, prosperity and abundance of grace. Special prayers and good wishes for you mom, who I know already has a lot of admirers now on the blog.
Ispita thank you for the beautiful card you sent. Greatly appreciated.

Dear Yogesh,
Your definition of a Guru is right on. The word 'guru' is made of two words, 'gu' and 'ru'. 'Gu' means darkness, 'ru' means
one who dispels it. Guru literally means 'the light'.

Just happened to read your post on this thread, will check out this thread at leisure.

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Kaveetaa,

Blessings be...to thee
and
all your family and frinds, for a peaceful and happy 2006.

Namaste,
Cinda

Hi Kavita,and everybody on the blog, HAPPY NEW YEAR. Kaveeta, thank you.May God bless all of you.

Hi Kavita,
I am practicing "Sahaj Marg" system of Meditation. The foundation is called "Sri Ram Chandra Mission". My guruji says God has to experienced in our hearts. For e.g. we can read about Mango, how it looks, tastes etc but to experience it we should have mango. Similarly to experince God we need to practice meditation as prescribed.
Well the Sahaj Marg system to meditation is free of cost, because as our Guruji says everything in nature i.e. air, water, light is free of cost so the "transmission" from our master is also free of cost. This system of meditation does not promise u anything like lots of money, prosperity or health but it promises every sincere abhyasi(the one who is practicing meditation in this system) the only goal ie to merge with the divine.
Please go to www.srcm.org for more information.

love
namrata

"Since selling divinity in diverse packages has become a multi-million dollar business, I’m curious to hear from all of you what you think works for you. Where do you get your best advice"

Well, I was a Christian out of fear. I was raised in it here in California. Fortunatly I quit. It reminds me a lot of people in India who apparently grow up with a lot of religion, obviously..

"how do you choose your path"

I think your need dictates your path. I felt like I needed to live to be 175 and I felt like I needed to figure out if there was a scientific explaination for miracles if indeed they existed. So I did what could be roughly be described as "spirituality." Oddly this is an archtype. The witch/warlock in stories is always 3 or 4 hundred years old and they can do magic. Not that I think I am a witch, but I think these are two natural motivations for humans to do spirituality without really wanting to be spiritual. Once again, natural human needs instead of being motivated by religious belief, or being "sold" on spirituality by spirituality salesman as Kavita suggests....perhaps we can say that you don't choose your path, your path chooses you. In other words, what did man do before gurus? Well, he acted out of need and built tools.

"and what does it mean to be divine or spiritual from your personal perspective"

I think the divine is a mutually exclusive reality with earth/creation. The divine is not human therefore a human cannot be divine. Humans however can copy some aspects of the divine and this unfortunatly has become enligtenment. But this copying is a misapplication and subsequently a dup.

Thank you, Kavita. And thank you, sundar, for your 27DEC05, 8:45 PM post . . . relate . . . .

Namaste ~ twfm

Thanks every one. Navin welcome back. Geeta, thank you for your wishes, Namrata thank you very much for the information, will check out the site. Matt very thought provoking post and a great perspective. Marcella thanks. Ron and Kaveetaa thanks for your kind words on Mallika's blog and thanks to any one else I left out.

Hi Kavita:

Interesting post! I have gotten sick and tired of this "Spiritual Tourism" that goes on amongst the devotees and the money that the Gurus make!

regarding "Satguru" Jaggi.. I had an interesting anecdote. I have this Mallu friend - a christian who has been an ardent Rush Limbaugh fan - who got into this spiritual thing and has been devouring Gita etc... now he happened to attend one of Jaggi's retreat and wanted me to go too.. I was trying to set my own spiritual compass right those days (still am) and declined because I really am not looking for a Guru. He was convinced that he had met an Enlightened being!

Then one day I was at the airport when I met this Tamilian guy and we got talking on these matters after a while. he then said - i had a friend in Chennai (who would even visit his house and hang around) who used to be this Harley Davidson kinda guy talking spiritual stuff here and there.. now he has made it big... he even has a website - Ishayoga .com or something...

hmm I said.. did I hear that name before? :-)

This friend did say that there were rumors that Jaggi may have had a hand in the death of his wife... before he got the Guru "makeover" from the earlier HD biker avatar! Of course, now he has some big connections within the political circles in the south and so his empire has been growing by leaps and bounds there.

I am not sure what the truth is.. but those who say love is blind.. forget that even spirituality pursuits these days are blind too!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Interesting post Desh,
I am actually meeting Sadguru on the 9th or the 18th of this month. I quite enjoyed reading his book mystic musings for its rather hard hitting thoughts. I usually read the books always. There is a picture of him right on the first page seated on a Harley Davidson.His devotees have been trying to get me to meet him for a year and I have been turning down the invitations due to other committments.
A rather lavish Isha resort is in the works right now in Georgia. I guess I will know what to think of him after this month!
I do wonder how all these guys end up with such powerful political and business connections. I have seen devotees of sri sri just walk around like they are in a trancearound him. He himself is a rather endearing, simple sort of a person.
The power of self hypnotism? Faith..guess whatever works.

Kavita:

Hmm.. interesting!

This Tamilian guy also told of an incident where a common friend's Mom was severely ill and was in coma .. somewhere in Atlanta or something - the doctors had given up.. when they called Jaggi. He asked them to do some Mantras or something.. and it seems she revived within a day. Now, how much of this is "folk-lore" and how much of it is coincidence is beyond my comprehension!

But this friend remains skeptical of him and so do I.

That set me thinking when I was reading "The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda" - he did say that some of these powers are possible through some vedic rituals.. now that does not necessarily make you a Yogi per se.. or even enlightened... but in this world of instant gratification.. thats enough to get you the works!

I guess the nexus of the Politician.. the Religious leader....the Goon ... and the business man is a fairly good one.. and self serving! :-) They all deserve and need each other!

Would be greatly interested in reading your take on this guy once you are done with him :-)

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,
The funny thing about sadguru is, one of his devotees who is a good friend and has been trying to arrange this meeting said to me..you and sadguru will get along very well..both of you use one line frequently..I asked and what is that line? and he responded..both of you say.."cut through the BS and come to the point!" ever so often when people ramble. That intrigued me.. a harley davidson riding guru who uses words like BS..if nothing else it wont be a dull meeting!

I still have an interview with sri sri that has to be published. I know cnn international and a local georgia mag that showed up for a press conference with him killed the interview. They werent impressed.
You may have read about my friend sunil Kapahi. His wife and he are great admirers of sri sri and sunil was about to have his surgery..sri sri was in town and in that huge horde of devotees from every where, he still took the time to talk to sunil and later I requested his guys here to give sunil a one on one with him..He was very kind and spent a lot of time with them. For me that gesture of compassion meant more than any hype I see around him.

Looks like the latest guru to get embroiled in controversy is the famous baba Ramdev, whose line of herbal medicines are under scrutiny due to animal extracts and human bones being found in them.

"Lot of masala in this Ramdev story Swati Bharadwaj-Chand
[ Friday, January 06, 2006 11:39:57 pmTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]
NRI New Year Gift, FREE Calling Card
RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates

AHMEDABAD: Cult figure Baba Ramdev may have till recently been known more for his unbelievable body-bending yogic postures. But now he has an Ahmedabadbased company all tied up in knots.

No, the company's employees haven't been practising his yoga techniques. It's just that the company's brand name has one thing in common with the famed guru — the name Ramdev.

The controversy surrounding the 'traces' of animal and human body parts found in the medicines made by Baba Ramdev's pharmacy has officials of spices maker Ramdev Food Products Pvt Ltd, which makes Ramdev Masala, hot under the collar.

In fact, the loads of publicity is giving the promoters sleepless nights and they are worried about the impact on their brand equity and sales.

Ramdev Food Products claims to have a turnover of over Rs 50 crore, including exports to UK, US, China and Australia.
When contacted by TOI, the promoters sought to shrug off the issue saying that the company had nothing to do with Baba Ramdev and that both operated in demarcated segments.

President Pradip Patel was quick to add that Ramdev Masala was a 40-year-old trademark with a loyal clientele across the country. "Our customer base is different as we are in spices, his consumers are patients," says Patel.

But sources insist that insiders are worried that though many in Gujarat may be well aware of Ramdev Masala's origins, the same may not hold true for people consuming the company's products in the rest of the country or even abroad where the brand is exported.

But then controversy is not new to Ramdev Masala. The brand has been in the news since the late nineties when the Ramdev group split.

Even now siblings Arvind Patel of Ramdev Exports, who retails as 'Swad brand manufactured by Ramdev', and Hasmukh Patel of Ramdev Food Products Pvt Ltd, are locked in a battle in the Supreme Court for rights over usage of the Ramdev brandname. Whoever said what's in a name?

Couldnt resist posting that story.This is such a ..brand names werent not a problem as long as Baba Ramdev's name was selling..now that there is an investigation the masala isnt that spicy any more..here is the other story
Baba Ramdev uses human bones'
PRESS TRUST OF INDIA
Posted online: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 at 1140 hours IST

NEW DELHI, JANUARY 3: Months after she alleged that ayurvedic medicines prepared by Baba Ramdev contained animal parts and human bones, CPM leader Brinda Karat on Tuesday claimed that the Union Health Ministry has found that the guru has violated licensing and labelling provisions.

Producing a letter purportedly written by Union Joint Secretary in the Health Ministry, she said analysis reports of the samples prima facie reveal a violation of licensing and labelling provisions of the Indian Drugs and Cosmetics Act and demanded strict action against him.

Hi Kavita,

With reference to Swami Ramdev and the allegations against him, there is more than meets the eye..It would be informative if you read my post to sandeeps blog.

It is yeomans service in the field of Yoga, which he is providing free of cost to millions in India by teaching The pranayamas and asanas..panacea of all ills. It hurts to see such a man being hauled up by self serving politicians..

Dear Kavita,

Just happened to stumble upon this post of yours. Fascinating topic! You've made some really interesting points. All the comments that have come in as a result have also provided me with quite an insight on this issue.

I don't quite know what to think of Guru's. I never really believed in all that. Then one day I experienced a trauma I feel ill about even after all these years. At the time, I was living alone, didnt have many friends and wasnt religious or spiritual for that matter. It was then that I started having very, very vivid dreams about a Guru in Southern India. I don't mean one, I mean several. Curiousity got the better of me and I finally went to visit this Guru who was able to identify my problems and aid in my struggle to overcome my trauma without me saying anything! I knew he was genuine for a few reasons, firstly, he didnt ask me for anything, no money, nothing. secondly, he AIDED my development, in other words, he helped me help myself. False Guru's and the like will offer quick fixes to solve ur problem entirely after you've signed over your bank balance, I was smart enough to know that then and am still wary of it today.

I dont know what you'll make of my experience. I cant deny it. I still follow that Guru and have had some miraculous occurrences as well. As a scientist, believe me, it was bizarre. I guess what I am trying to say is that we cant be arrogant enough to assume we know all there is to know about the capacities of the Human mind. And we'd be silly to ignore these true Masters who are beyond criticism today simply because they havent been proven false.

Thanks for another interesting post Kavita.

Seeker,
thanks for your comments. Made very interesting reading for me. Some people are fortunate to find their guides in this life time..it can be a guru, or a teacher, or a friend. Glad to read that you were one of the lucky ones.
I always approach these things with an open mind. If nothing else I have met some very learned people this way.

Nice thoughts Seeker; how fortunate you are to have a trusted loving/compassionate guide!

North

Hi guys. Really neat. Nana will get a kick out of it when I show her. http://cheap-hydrocodone.gottaoh.com

Found ur post about reading the Mystic's Musings and ur proposed meeting with Sadhguru.

It would be great to know how did your meeting with him go and what impressions you came back with.

Love,
Siddarth

Thank you, thank you very much for such a lovely thread!
This is the first time I have found anything 'negative' said about Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Foundation. I often wonder why we do not have access to relevant information when we need it that most, even with the miracle of the internet and google.
I had been with Isha Foundation since 2001. The initial course used to be called "Sahaja Sthithi Yoga". He is extremely logical, possesses a magnetic personality, and commands respect. His 'meditators' flock to him like bees around a honeycomb, to listen to the same lectures again and again and again, and to 'volunteer'. Volunteering consists mainly of serving the organization: helping during his courses, and recruitment of other people into the organization.
One on one though I have found Jaggi to be different. Not so engaging, a kind of aloofness, and a certain abrasiveness in his dealings.
One is not allowed to take notes, record his talks, photograph him etc., "It is a different way of 'transmission', and the books etc., are not necessary"
Well, what can I say? Everything is so very subtle... It is analogous to a frog that is thrown into boiling water that jumps out verses one that is placed in water at room temperature and then cooked to death without any effort to escape.
Once one signs up for the initial classes, slowly one (without realizing) gets further and further away from logic and reasoning. There is this carrot of Enlightenment see, and the focus is on that. I noticed people go into hysterics, exhibit fit like symptoms, scream, weep and roll on the floor. By this time you are conditioned to not look at or pay any heed to these things. Spiritual progress is a personal journey see, not so much observing others. We are forbidden to discuss our experiences. In the beginning we are told that the 'practice' is just 20 minutes and includes an 'effortless' kind of meditation. No restrictions whatsoever. As the plot unfolds, one discovers that every aspect of one's life is impacted. The food: totally pranic, vegan, devoid of onions, egg plant, garlic, etc., People become zombie like, do not talk about anything else. Monthly sathsangs with scripted agenda. Takes up an average of 2.5 hours of 'practice' daily.
Then the volunteers are requested to 'speak' about their opinions of the next level program. No specifics though, only about what it has done to you. The very terms, expressions on the faces of the volunteers who describe this makes one curious to sign up for the next level.
3 (or 5?) days of 'retreat'. Hardly a few hours of sleep. Almost bizzare kinds of sounds, music, etc., By now it is common to see even sane people who were your neighbors during the initial programs fall down in raptures, yell scream and behave like nervous wrecks. By now, the more people tell you not to pay attention to these exhibitions, or ask for explanations, nor expect these experiences - there is actually a sort of yearning that develops! We want to see what this is about.
I can go on, and on. There is a third most advanced level which is held in the ashram in India. There are Himalayan retreats conducted by the Sadhguru. By the end of all this, you are convinced about the utter uselessness of logic and reasoning. You 'learn' to trust the guru and be 'willing'. Willing translates to total and absolute surrender and obedience. Those very attributes that were used to draw you in - logic, eloquence, reasoning etc., - you are asked to shed. That which is supposed to be 'scientific' 'liberating' and not of any particular faith or religion turns out to be anything but those things. It is heavily influenced by Hindu Shaivite practices, right down to the slokas, Linga, and Rudhraksh. Too late! nobody realizes this, and those who do are themselves convinced that they have a 'long way to go'. Our young child used to point out some of these descripancies - we chided him.
The Indian segment of the 'meditators' are also taken in by the vast native population that Jaggi is able to attract. Especially by the physicians, scientists etc., who seem to go into raptures. The health benefits of the pranayams, hatha yoga, etc., are indisputable. The conclusion is made that since A, B, and C, propagated by the Sadhguru have been validated, D thro Z is naturally bound to be true.
I do not wish to wear down the reader with further details. Unlike some of the other groups that we know of in the United States, Jaggi's Foundation, I found, (at least in the few years I was involved in it) does not unduly fleece monies; nor have I heard of any illicit or illegal activities.
It changes one's personality though, and we do not know about it. Also, we are not forewarned, nor given truthful information as to the effects these practices have on an individual and his/her family. This is one of the things that I find hard to condone.
Thanks, gentlefolk, for bearing with my lengthy post. This is the first time I have put at least some of my thoughts on this Foundation in a public forum. Even as I write this, there is a sense of uncertainity and guilt regarding whether what I am doing is wrong - I can't explain it. Reading Desh's post made something inside me snap and want to just air it out. Sadhguru's wife Viji is portrayed as an evolved soul who 'decided' to slip out of her body and attain Samadhi.

Thank you.

P.S:

Well quite an intersting chain. I was writing a paper on sadguru and after reading was wondering what all this about.

Sadguru as i know has his unique way of teaching and under the indian context when you accept somebody as your guru it has to be total and absolute surrender. Now it is up to each indivdual as to whom he or she should aceept as your guru. One would hear stories about each of the so called gurus !!1

Nice work! -order ambien

Nice work! -casino consultant

Nice work! -tramadol side effects

Nice work! -ambien cr

Nice work! -dating web site

Asaram Bapu is a fraud, Forger & Criminal.
He has made millions of followers because he is a freaking good communicator and has lot of slaves
working for him for free whm he has brainwhased.
H.H Aasaramji bapu.there are millions of followers of H.H Asaramji Bapu
the world over becuase some Indians will pray even if i lay a stone in the middle of the road.
Due to media getting ready to expose culprits like him we saw number of stories of people in india who were bigger than him lie Amarnath Shrine board.
I just can't wait to see what else brings for asaram.
He has made multi million dollars of empire by ruining peope life , just ask in vilage of any nearby ashram.

He has number of cases against him in Delhi High court.
He has manipulated number of people from wealthy families to eave their homes and live in his Ahmedbad ashram.
People who leave there family are made to pray to him as a god.
His son Narayan swami is a womaniser, who also now calls himself as god.
He spent 9 crores of rupees in his daughters marriage.
His links with a Jeweller are well publicized with income tax raids on jeweler in Delhi.
He has brainwashed lot of people and has grabbed their properties.
He is same like DIDI who got murdered Trivedi and he also speaks like Swadhyay parivar.
His inner circle says he said same thing like did you can kill anyone for the asaram bapu trust.
He will be next in the news soon, Becuase he has ruined numerous lifes, and has number of eople wrking for him as slaves and treating as god becuase they are hypnotized by him.

I agree with all that chetan has said because i have also experienced the same. people need to be aware of how dangerous this organisation is and what they are getting them selves involved with.