"How can I find a way to live in that experience constantly ? It certainly never comes by calling out to it."

hahaha...

you want to live a moment in the past when you "lived in that moment"?

See the irony? :-)

The only way to "get those moments back" is to live in your present.

I try my best but cannot... maybe I will one day!

Like J. Krishnamurti used to say - when you stop the urge to "become" and instead "be".. then you are free.

However, there have been moments when in the blackest days of my life - I was neither sad nor happy .. I just was in tune with those times... those were the most peaceful for me....

Please do describe your experiences... maybe others can too...

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Shekhar,

Fascinating blog. I will come back to it, bit by bit. In my words and in the words of poets. Stay tuned.

Kins regards
Tanzan Senzaki

Hi Shekhar, here is my experience very much like yours. I call this my First Experience of Oneness. I am sure you will find echos of your own experience in this. Its effect lasted for eight years in my case. and oh what a life...I could have done anything and actually I did. And I knew there was no judging now...

********

My First Experience of Oneness

By the age of 25 I had completed my degree in Civil Engineering, joined govt. service, got married and fathered two sons. For the next about three years, while my friends and colleagues were busy building up their careers I found myself lost in what one may say are the eternal questions of mankind: Who am I? Where have I come from? Where am I supposed to go after my so-called death? Has my being, my "I" some permanent point of reference or is it merely a chance bubble floating meaninglessly in the wilderness of space? What is space? Where this world ends? What is beyond that? What is God? What is good and bad? What is the best way to live this unimaginably short life? Could it be that all this (alluding mentally to the world around) never have been? Were there then to be no.. nothing …forever….f o r e v e r….. N E V E R…?

Then one day while I was sitting all alone in my brother's rented flat in a big city, suspended from my govt. service, separated from my wife and two children, diseased of unattended body and dejected of unanchored mind, something entirely unexpected happened. Something like lightening but unaccompanied by usual light and thunder seemed to flux out of my head upwards, encompassing simultaneously somehow the whole of the universe into its fold…

Actually it is not easy to describe such an experience…For, initially it so overwhelms your being that you lose all your sense of separateness, of individuality. And at long last when you regain some semblance of your sense of separateness, of individuality even then something like what the scientists call Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - simply put which states that at deeper levels you can know one aspect of reality only at the cost of the other - inhibits its truest recollection much more description: in clothing it with words you tend to lose its essential stuff, its essential beauty, in trying to capture its essential stuff, its essential beauty you increasingly get lost to the world of words…

It was not something which had happened to me as say an ordinary incident or even accident would happen to me: a happening, happening to me as something separate from "me," so that I could simultaneously act as an observer and a participator, so that I could 'note it down' as it happened. It had somehow involved me totally: it had somehow involved even that part of me which was supposed to 'note it down,' was supposed to act as the base on which the mechanism of my memory was to function.

Anyway, what a way of finding the answers! Off go rather the questions themselves. Off goes rather the wall itself which had actually been the cause of all those questions. The questioner, the questioning and the things questioned had somehow got dissolved into one single whole, into one single woolly unity!

Consequently I got myself reinstated into my service, brought my family to live with me at my new place of posting and, in general, let my life adrift.

And again what a life it was! Eight years of almost total abandon! Everything seeming to happen as if on its own. While I seemed to be standing still, a mere spectator to events! My family, social and service lives sub-serving one way or the other the unstoppable flow of only this almost wordless life! Perhaps it was what Nietzsche meant from his life beyond good and evil…

Mallika, Now what are you up to?

Thanks for the response on your dad's behalf. I was just kidding. It appears you got serious. Now you are blocking my posts. I can't even post to a comment on Shekhar's blog. I get the following message each time:

Thank You for Commenting

Your comment has been received. To protect against malicious comments, I have enabled a feature that allows your comments to be held for approval the first time you post a comment. I'll approve your comment when convenient; there is no need to re-post your comment. Return to the comment page.

Mallika, I am not a bad guy. I swear it by my blood! Do not block me, please, please....(two thousand and six times!)

I've only once had that experience but I was sleeping at the time. It was a very intense dream- no real plot lines it was just the purest expression of love. I felt love within me and around me- for all who were present but also for some presence beyond who I saw in the dream. Almost indescribable. I remember waking and wondering if we feel that way when we pass on. What a wonderful passing.

I've never had that experience or sensation in waking life. Could make for a wonderful life- to feel that for yourself and others all the time. The problem is laundry keeps piling up, the kids need to be picked up from school, bills are due, deadlines loom. My brain gets cluttered and the beat goes on.

Dear Shekhar,

I quote you:
"when we are

Neither prejudiced by the past experience
Nor in fear or expectancy of the Future,
living purely in the moment

Then in all probability we are creatures of love. Those that can live completely in the moment are truly free and in Harmony with the forces of the Universe. They are pure consciousness and therefore there is no possibility of them becoming serial killers ?

Right ?" Unquote.

Yes, right.

Quote you: "Does anyone want me to describe thos eexperiences ? I will do my best." Unquote

Pls go ahead. I'm sure everyone here would be interested to hear about your experiences.

Quote you:"How can I find a way to live in that experience constantly ? It certainly never comes by calling out to it." Unquote

What you experience when you are truly in the moment is a state which people call Nirvana or Satori or Enlightenment. With most people such a state is only temporary. To be in this state permanently, the first thing you've got to be aware of is that it would NEVER come by TRYING.
I am reminded of a scene in the movie, Matrix, where Morpheus is teaching fighting to Neo. He tells Neo, "Stop TRYING to hit me, and hit me".
J.Krishnamurthy is right when he says that the 'effort to become" is the hinderance. Don't try to become, just be. This is what Osho used to say too.

Cheers!
Navin

PS: If these three experiences which you're talking about have left an indelible mark on your consciousness, then I would even suggest that you consider expressing yourself by making a film on them.

>>"But what about Charles sobhraj then ? Should he even be allowed not to take responsibility fr his actions ?"

I am curious as to your definition of "taking responsibility" in this instance. Would his taking responsibility mean - giving himself over to the authorities? killing himself? Aknowledging to himself that what he did was not balanced, but twisted? Giving his life over to other people for whatever they feel like doing with it, out of anger and revenge?

If we try to seperate our own feelings on "Good" and "bad" (if you subscribe to thoes ideas) and what society/governments say consequences to certain actions are.. what are we left with? Are prisons for hiding away people we hate/fear or do we hope to change their ways? Is humanity concerned more with punishing, or correcting? Do we agree with it?

>>"In my last blog I said that my New Year resolution is to live my life in humility. And in an attempt to describe humility I said it was ultimately the ability to break the relationship between action and result."

Humility was YOUR new years resolution (mine too, actually), and considering you are less-than-inclined to go around killing folks, so you don't have to be wrestling with being pro-humility & anti-serial killing. Your personal action is deciding to seperate what you do from what happens. To try to apply such personal philosophies on others ends up just getting one stuck in a bunch of intellectual back-and-forth.

Charles' path is his own. It is not without guides and he is probably not without a higher self. Can we accept such an idea? That such "horrible", "awful" people are just spirits like us who happen to have very different roles than us here on earth. Their lives are under their own rules, their own energies, their own histories. Same as ours are. So if we try to justify the "truth" in our concepts of say, humility, by trying to see if it would fit on others like charles we just might lose faith in it, which seems unfair to ourselves.

Anyway, thats what came to mind after reading the first part of your post, Shekar.

I find when I search myself for concepts, beliefs, ideas, and the like - and i look at them objectively, usually realizing they belong to my family, society, religion or something of the like.. i release them, and thoes moments of all being one loving, divine whole increase. But there are many different ways of reaching such states, i would guess. Thats just my own. :)

Hi Shekhar,

Sobhraj is a liar using an excuse to hide from himself and others the fact that he is seething with rage and madness, and is disconnected from himself and others, and has given himself permission to act like a god towards others, to allow them to live or not live. That he chooses not to act in this way at this time is no guarantee that he has entered another life and will never do so again. However, for every moment that he lives not killing someone, he should receive some compassion and forgiveness. But to take away someone's life intentionally is so negative an act that a lifetime's collection of moments of goodness is not enough to cleanse him of one such death.

If one lives in pure consciousness, one cannot fall into being like a serial killer. One senses all things and can't become divorced from their needs. To kill others, a person must cut off him or her self from the rest of humanity. To live in pure consciousness means not to be cut off from anything.

I have not had those moments you speak of. But I have been close to that state sometimes, so I know it exists. I have sometimes had the feeling that, if I would just allow it, I could float in the air, that only my perception that life should be lived on the ground is what keeps me from floating. I think that death must feel like letting go. Yet when I think I could float, it doesn't appear to me that if I let go I would simply die. Rather, it seems at those moments that if I let go I would become human plus. Not different, just more. Many responsibilities would come from the plus, and I'm not sure if I could handle the responsibilities.

Cheers, Heather

tahnk u Navin,Harb, Ameya and Heather. Each of u are giving me some part of the solution of an enormous matrix that is complete only on completion. Not bit by bit, though i can chip away at my own consciousness to be tunes to recieve, when it comes. That chipping can be done bit by bit,

Harb, so where are you with your life now ?

shekhar

Harb:

Beautifully expressed and written! I wish I could have met you this time.. maybe the next time!

You should write more...

Shekhar:

"That chipping can be done bit by bit,"

I am not sure if that is the only way to do it... I am convinced - I dont know why - that the train can be halted in a matter of seconds - for as much as I have understood (not experienced though) that there is NO TRAIN!

Maybe one day when your "train" does vanish - you can share it with us...

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Yes, Shekhar, i would very much want you to describe those experiences, in your movies. I think people with your talent are meant to express the best in life through their gift.

The serial killer you describe, Charles... if you meet him in the moment, does he have any past? Can you judge him? Can you condemn him? Is he not completely innocent? If he has found a way to release himself from the past, wow... but can not we also do it, when meeting him? do we have to carry the burden of his past?

The remarkable thing about pure consciousness is that it has no moral preferences...

Once the damage is done..
rests, only the sadness and the sorrow..,
transcend, what else can one do?
Law of Detachement,

Love, Peace, Passion

Shekhar: I do indeed hope you will further stimulate both the "hot buttons" of Karma (and even, if not especially, the notion of Dharma), as well as drawing your posters' attention toward reflecting on their own moments of those most sublime and seemingly inexplicable experiences of that "otherwordly feeling of peace and calm."

If we base these two explorations on Wayne Dyer's simple one-liner: What you focus on is what expands into manifestation; which is why our lives truly reveal what it is we are actually thinking about all the time, at least in the "projector's" of our subconscious minds, as well as our conscious minds.

It has been my experience that karma is a term that relates more to our soul's learning setup, and that it is really rather more related to the life-lessons our souls' incarnated to garner, through the notion that "knowledge, in and of itself is as nothing; whereas knowledge, once experienced, becomes what is known as wisdom."

With this in mind, it may be that karma then, is more of a term that houses both learning and teaching under the umbrella that can serve to protect one from both the burning sun, as well as rain and snow?

That karmic umbrella then allows into the perceiver's life only those experiences designed to serve the soul's growth, or rather, balance the imbalances through life's seemingly random encounters with all those nouns known as persons, places, things, and events.

So why is it the "sun shines on both sinner and saint," with it's unconditional life-giving energy (and life-taking power!) nurturing all with undetached deference?

The sun's light is like the true art of forginess; it is a universal tool that works for everyone--both the offender and the offended, to set one free from past injuries and earthly injustices, no matter how "conditionally" we may arbitrarily apply it's principles--and to what degree.

Let us consider the possible wisdom of this man you speak of, Charles Sobhraj--another infamous "Charles," like the "Charles" so famous in the U.S., Charles Manson---but unlike Manson, the Charles you speak of is free to move about, and has a daughter that apparently God entrusted him to oversee for a time, and how could I be his judge about whether he is indeed a changed man, or just another "jackal," viewing the system of earthly civilization as an opponent to repeatedly outsmart, and play a deadly game of cat-and-mouse with.

How many of us have had lifetimes as indiscriminate murderers or false priests who raped and abused charges who were placed in their care for religious/spiritually-oriented upbringing. The subtle sense of what is lurking in the subconscious (soul's) memories of my own past lives gives me reason to strive toward the refining and genuine stance of knowing I can't truly be the judge of another's karma, so to speak, lest I bring even more "Karma" upon my own learning!

The noted psycho-spiritual teachings and training of "A Course in Miracles" has a section where "the Source" of this material equates judgement to be a singularly impossible human task, as it would "require that the 'judge' know all things past, present, and future" of the one being judged, in order to render an accurate judgement. "The Course" further states, unequivocally, that only the "Holy Spirit" has been endowed by the Creator with this ability--verily a "Super-Intelligent" and unseen force of life and love that shows only It's footprints in in this world through such experiences as coincidences-beyond-rational-explantions, and 'miracles' of any kind, and most especially, in It's relentlessly living energy, the primal force that both "beats our hearts," and simultaneously takes us to those highest-of-highs--the ones you and the other poster's have described being beyond our own abilities to make happen--and also, every other fun and inspirational "human thing," like sex with a true love!

Shekhar: Like always, I seem to rambling and babbling, or as Kavita put's it, "I am 'hijacking' your post!" But....since I've already gone this far, I would then move towards the point of this response, which immediately came into my mind when I read this blog, and the first few responses by Desh, Harb, and Maria Luisa, before beginning this one.

The final ideas come from the question, "Why can a Saint commit murder, and yet have 'karma' attached to the deed?"

I go to page 288-89 of "The Nine Faces of Christ," featuring a lesson being taught by Skakus the Egyptian to one Jeshua, Joseph-bar-Joseph, a man who became a Messiah, according to the most-beloved of masterpieces I've ever read, and Skakus asks this young mystic-in-training (at the Egyptian Temples of Isis and Osiris, on the Isle of ON), "Boy, what is sin?"

After answering from the years of his training, Skakus quips this most brilliant and disciplined of students about answering from his teachings by firing back, "Wait boy. You do not bring the answer from your Master's Heart." And Skakus goes for a bit on the eartly meanings of "sin," or karma, and then Skakus (supposedly the reincarnation of Socrates--who failed to ascend because.....): and Skakus states:

"You may sin when you break a moral code, but not because you break it. You sin only if you let your mind involve you in the act, if you let your thoughts cause you to stop in your struggle toward total union with Divine Radiance. When you have reached such a stage that you can do anything without being sidetracked into the attitude of negation, it is impossible to sin. Your Yogins say that when th Yogi is in the state of bliss, even should he murder it would not be sin. this is a step toward Truth. So, will you quit blaming yourself for the holy impulses you feel for when you look upon that magnificent woman. (Mheriku) Will you learn to forgive yourself all your unruly and divine impulses, for then you will find that the whole of the world is without sin!"

And yes, I did get permission from the author of this book to quote and teach from it, as it is based on the lives of over 400 Avatars, Mystics, and Saints--one that I consider to be the "greatest love story ever written," although the "spirit-self of the author" instructs us all that indeed the greatest story ever written or lived, is the "spirit-self" of the one who reads and takes to heart teachings, and grows to live these lessons as one's own story!

Hope this twist on Karma or Sin helps bring yet another view to the discussion.

Keep up your never-ending series of wonderful and thought-provoking post's Shekhar! Dave

Shekharji...one drip at a time can eventually fill an entire ocean, same for making it empty.

As you even take the time to share the story with us here...it is one way to release that tension.

I would like to share part of a message with you I received from my parents. Both died, Mom 8 years ago and Dad last year Jan.7th. They came to me in a dream and bestowed a responsibility upon me after I had endured a situation of overcoming what we would commonly call "good and evil"
Near the end of the vision, I witnessed the "Angel and Devil" both sitting and playing together, as if their whole existence was a mere game and no matter what chioces we make, we must always remember that these "two" are friends and one cannot exsist without the other.

I would like to hear about your experiences.

I also feel the conflict in me, but after this vision/message from my parents I am compelled to find a place of acceptance and peace that will allow me to fulfill my responsibility.

Sending you a prayer of love,

Cinda

Hi Shekhar, here is an experience that I do not have any explanation for. May be some one can shed some light on it.

1996 to 2001 were very traumatic due to a malpractice suit. I needed to talk and get it out of my system.(I was told not to consult a psychiatrist by my lawyer).I used to bug all my friends.I could not sleep.I was a mess.With out going into details I can say that the plaintiff's lawyer was suing the wrong doctor. During this time I also learnt Reiki.

Spring of 2001, I went to Denver CO for a seminar. After the seminar,I rented a car and went to just look at the ski areas, because it was my first visit to Denver, and I had heard how beautiful it was.As I came upon Breckenridge, some thing happened. I was still driving.I was still enjoying the scenery. But I had this experience of being in a place where there is only peace, and bliss.I was bathed in this beautiful emotion for the longest time.It was as though I was both in the car and in this other blissful place at the same time. When I came back home, I asked my Reiki teacher what was all that about. Her explanation was that I lived in that area of Colorado in a previous incarnation.All I know is I will never ever forget it.

Was I living in the moment?

Here is an interesting "take" on humility:

" What is called "Humility" is in fact just negative Pride, and is better so called, for the sole implication of true Humility is the absence of any entity to be proud."
---- Wei Wu Wei

What a great discussion. I liked what all you guys came up with to answer shekhar's question- especially ameya and heather. Here are a couple of other thoughts, shekhar...

1- It depends on intention. If the soul's intention (even a killer's soul) is to improve and do better, then the soul can take on a new path of greater awareness and love, which will be supported by the universe.

2- What someone says, what they appear to be to the outside world, and even maybe their own conscious mind (which can often times be fickle or deluded or psychotic as you mentioned) makes no difference to the soul. All that matters is intention.

3- If someone honestly turns over a new leaf, so to speak, the universe will support the change and the person, given that it is genuine attempt. Forgiveness is real. This does not however exempt them from facing retribution by society or facing the karmic consequences of previous actions. The person's soul must still undertake the monumentous task of cleansing itself from years (perhaps lifetimes) of build-up actions.

4- The more pure intention and effort someone puts into this work, the more rapid the cleansing process will be and negative karma erased. No one can automatically escape their past actions no matter what they do or who they are now. However forgiveness and grace are possible at every second no matter who you are. Both are simultaneously true, as God functions without duality.

just my 2 cents =)

Did any of us choose to be born to people who became our families? Did we choose the relgion they happened to believe in? Did we choose the early experiences that they family and their larger social environment imposed upon us?

Did we choose the values that we now take for granted to be one's own. What walues would we have if we happened to have been born to a family and an environment that represents the very opposite of the one around us?

How often do we do and say things we wish we hadn't? How much more often do we think things we are appalled by? How lucky are we that we didn't have the kind of experiences that ripped out the capacity for empathy that makes us human?

Reality is a system in which pure consciousness, duration, time, location, conditioning, human biology and the rest of nature interact with one another in a perpetual multi-dimensional dance.

We cannot hope to master our lives until we understand that we are each already within this dance, that it is already generating our very thoughts, beliefs, our values, our remarks, our actions, their effects, the vignettes of those effects that are drawn by different vantage points of consciousness, the interpretations of those vignettes by the existing value systems stored in the brains located at the vantage points...

Until consciousness can regard all the dimensions of the dance excepting Itself, that are noticable through the vantage point that is you, and can establish sufficient distance and duration from these dimensions, how can you hope to begin the process of determining your own beliefs, your own values?

How can be be guilty of what the system did through you until you were given the opportunity to focus on and edit the dimension of your beliefs and values? And then too, how can you feel guilty for doing the best you can to edit as much as you can whenever you remember you are not doing so?

Hi Tanzan,

Don't take it personally, the message and short delay of posting your comment is something Shekhar activated on his blog a couple of weeks ago (it applies to everyone).

Cheers, Heather

Shekhar,

Fascinating blog. I will come back to it, bit by bit. In my words and in the words of some philosophers and poets. Stay tuned.

Kind regards
Tanzan Senzaki

PS: Mallika & Co. whimsically keeps on blocking my posts for long hours!

Heather,

A brief delay is fine. Long delays seem like offering wrinkled, stale flowers to gods! When the party is over, what is the fun then?

Regards
TS

Dear Bob Fisher,

"Humility is the absence of any entity to be proud."

I understand what wei we wei is saying, and wonder if the attempt to live completely in the moment is a step iin that direction. Perhaps our identity is governed by the resduals of the past and the anticipation of the future, and shorn of that we have no identity. Cerainly some of the experiences i am reading in reponse to this blog are of the loosing one's identity.

thanks bobb fisher

shekhar

Tanzan, I am not delaying comments, I think this has to do with the new software,and I will ask Malika what is happening. shekhar

Thank you Mallika
Thank you Shekhar
Thank you, thank you!

Shekhar, I do want to post some - maybe quiet a few comments - to your recent blog. But I will need some feedback from you to know if you are with me, after you read any comment. As they say in India I will not go on beating my drums and blowing my trumpets, if you cannot hear my music.

Kind regards
Tanzan Senzaki

i feel we keep changin every second into a different person ..some things die some part comes alive
how do we combine and tell totally whether we r gudd or bad may be evryone has seen only one part of ourselves the other part is inshadow
some times we individually dont know our own lives.sometimes i feel the world greatest humanitarian and a mass muderer wil reach the same place after dying..may be we live in an illusion ...

tanzan, not only i but many many people on this blog listen to you express yourself. It's great. shekhar

Aloha Shekhar

Maybe he was just asking if his life had value? We live in a world of hierarchy of power. It is to untangle the hierarchy. We pay religion to talk to God for us; we pay doctors to heal us. Someone who feels powerless commits crime. I am sure you know people act out all what we feel. Responsibility is the ability to respond. No/know is the most perfect sound in the universe. It is sane to be powerless and not act. Love patty

Shekhar,
When we are fully in the moment, established in Being - we are (as you said) creatures of love. And so our actions are not for ourselves but for the whole of life.

But for someone to blow off past actions, including murder, as "that was my karma" is a way of denying responsibility. And now he says that his "karma" is taking care of his daughter, which perhaps means that she has awakened some light within that had been hidden. And yet, what about when she someday lets him down? What about when life changes? What karma will he have them?

Our actions are our choice and our responsibility. Yes, most of the time many of us make choices unconsiously based upon old patterns, fears and past conditioning. Still, they are our choices. (Hence the importance of being conscious.)

I dont' know anything about this person you are speaking of or what led him to kill so many people. Thankfully it's not for me to judge anyone else. And I know that "there but for the grace of God go I." But I can't see how a person can get to a place of freedom without taking responsibility.

I am not what I do. I can't control the outcome of my actions. The field of karma is so vast, it is not fathomable. But still, I am responsible for my actions (for the choices I make.)

That's my story and at least for today I'm sticking to it.

Love, Kristin

Shekar,
An individual is a fragment of the collective conscious so in that respect I am a fragment and you are another fragment.Our minds are constantly held by our past experiences,our beliefs, our escapes,our knowledge etc. and so there is never a moment of complete freedom for our minds to be completely by itself.
In those rare moments when the grip of our past conditioning escapes our mind,one experiences complete freedom.We all live such a mechanical and mundane life that we capture those rare moments in our memory and keep rehashing those experiences.

Charles is escaping from himself through the theory of karma as do so many people.Actually karma is complete responsibility because what one does now dictates what one will be in the future and there is no escape from past actions.If nothing changes now, the past is the future.

Prabhakar

Shekhar; can a wee babe, be borned; without the journey through the canal of birth?

Each time you experience a Diving moment; means you have tapped into your inner console, where you behold the controller in your hand of your mind.

All you are doing is; testing waters before one day; you jump right in with both feet the next time you have a blissful experience of oneness; that completeness, every human being craves.

The universe does not hear your call, until you are ready to hear the answering echo.

North

Hi Shekhar,

What a fascinating exploration you have begun, perhaps you will become one of those God like directors, the world certainly needs them.

In my book 1994 by Richard Thomas, I call it that because I published it all over the Internet, Usenet, and the Compuserve Spirtuality forum in that year.

In there I point out that contrary to popular “new age” and other mystic belief we do not, and cannot live in the present we all live in the past. So every one out there promoting the “live in the present moment” you could go to the next level if you so choose. You are actually saying something else but still entertain some Illusion in doing so.

You see the sensory stimuli that you perceive happened in the past, and there is a reason for that. One cannot occupy more than one point of view in the present. This is what allows one to be the One and The Many, like Mr. Urgo Diamu.

So I go on to ask the famous question that is a key to unlock the gate leading to one’s mystery.

Where does the present exist?

When realized where the present is, it was zen that you, Shekhar had those experiences.

Dear Shekhar lol Excuse my nasty typo above in my post? It should read: "divine" not diving lol

North

So to carry on with your other exploration, I asked this question in my book.

Does God have Karma?

No, God does not have Karma.

Does one have Karma? No, one does not, or we could say it depends on one’s state of mind.

Karma is an Illusion. This was the new replacement for the hell and fire motivation to behave one’s self. One invented to establish a sort of behavioral control. Now I shouldn't be telling you all this, but I am sure you can keep it secret and can handle it or you would not be reading it. For example Tanzen is not reading this, skipped over it, his ego you know.

Of course Karma exists if you subscribe to the Illusion.

If you do not subscribe to the Illusion you do not need Karma, because like you said.

“Then in all probability we are creatures of love. Those that can live completely in the moment are truly free and in Harmony with the forces of the Universe. They are pure consciousness and therefore there is no possibility of them becoming serial killers ? “ ~Shekhar

Yes. So if one understands, one would have no hate or fear to provoke one to kill. The best way to put it is that it is not in One’s nature to kill in this state of Being.
On the other hand you cannot kill your self, only a character. Now if you find yourself trying to kill yourself then the other is definitely “out of character” and one might erase them much like a comic strip writer, without a thought.

Ego abhors the truth, like nature the vacuum.

Living in the moment is not about time; it is about realizing what you are and what is behind it all.

Did you ever wonder the purpose, since there are no chance encounters, behind your having met this serial killer?

I will leave you to wonder.

One is certainly no ascended master so you can take what one says Lightly, I AM simply a descended master, Mr. Ego has a smirk on his face right now. (not you Shekhar)

Love & Blessings to All and may the Ego not get in one’s way.

Richard Thomas

The One & Many

P.S The only thing that stands between you and me is Mr. Ego.

From Infinite Play The Movie

Aloha Shekhar,
Thank you for your response on humility.

Ramesh Balsekar has quite a bit to say on responsibility which you might find intersting.
Here is a portion of what he has to say.

"One's own standards of right and wrong are part of conditioning, which is part of the programming. Programming is DNA plus conditioning. There is a sense of right and wrong. In fact, what I say is, if there is a question, do I do this or do I do that? then my answer has always been to do whatever you think is right or wrong at that moment. Why? Because "you" are not doing it anyway. There is no individual doer, neither you nor anyone else.
If at that moment you think that you should do one thing as against the other, it will be based on the conditioning. And who has produced that conditioning? Have you produced it? No! That conditioning is part of God's Will and the destiny of that body-mind organism. This is precisely what the Buddha is reported to have said, "Deeds are done, there is no individual doer thereof."

According to my concept the question of responsibilty is not there -- BUT, living one's life in society you cannot ignore the sense of responsibility. Therefore, what do you do? Act as responsibly as you are programmed to do.
---- Ramesh S. Balsekar

Namaste, Bob Fisher

Shekhar, can you relate to not wanting to, or obtaining the realization to, get rid of your ego, until it gets really big and super sized, and one realizes the problems and other terrible things it causes?

That has been the wisdom of my experience. So what happens to those whose ego's are never allowed to reach maximum growth? Can they ever know God?

I just wondered because you mentioned issues that drained you (ego is the most draining thing around) then I see in your choice to be humble in a ego less sense a desire to castrate it and render it impotent? Which can be done with a thought, an awareness, a knowing.

That what you think you are, is what you are not, because you can not be thought you can only be.

Richard:

You have said an interesting thing:

"Does one have Karma? No, one does not, or we could say it depends on one’s state of mind."

Well.. according to the general thought in Vedanta - detached action is what differentiates the lower and higher being.

For some reason I got the feeling that you may have been using Karma synonymous with a value judgment of "bad deeds". Karma is - just a deed - mental, physical or verbal.

So, the way I understand it - Karma itself is NOT an illusion - but the assumptions and context in which we undertake our deeds are.

God, by definition, is considered "Akarta" (Karta is one who does the Karma). That is one reason why I cant help but wonder when the folks go around worshipping God in the hope that "He" will "help" them.. He cant! Nothing that is done towards an end can be undertaken by "Him".

Now there are three "types" of deeds - Sattvik (Good), Rajasik (Neutral), and Tamasik (Bad) - and Salvation is BEYOND ALL THREE! So "Good Deed" or virtue from God is NOT an option.. or "He" loses his "throne". Even doing Good has an element of ego in it... that you CAN change.. a devastating assumption!

Cheers,
Desh
drishtikone.com

Desh,

You have a great understanding of things, and your questions help to bring clarity of mind and enhance the articulation of thought.

I think your saying cause and effect is not an Illusion, and I agree.

"but the assumptions and context in which we undertake our deeds are." ~D

That sounds right.

Do you think there is a Universal Accountant keeping tabs?

What if I never let people out into traffic and always found myself frustrated because no one ever let me out in traffic. Then I learned this thing about karma and started letting everyone out in traffic and suddenly people always let me out into traffic.

What is behind that you think?

Aloha Richard Thomas,
Great question of your's, "Where does the present exist?"
Wei Wu Wei, who was actually an Irishman, had the following to say:
" It seems to follow that our "present," having passed, must be conceptual as a presence, in fact just a notion in mind, and can have no factual existence whatever: WE CAN KNOW NO ACTUAL PRESENT.

No present moment could be perceived, since it must be in the "past" before the complicated process of perception could be completed - therefore our notion of "the present" could only exist in a "past".

Thanks for your posts, Bob Fisher

can a wee babe, be borned; without the journey through the canal of birth? ~North

It is called a cesarean. : )

Hi Bob,

Well it must be an Irish thing then because my grandmother was from Ireland.

Funny thing isn't it there is no present except maybe that we be, and will forever live in the past of our own creation.

Time itself is an illusion.

There is not past, nor future, time itself is simply a construct by which we measure movement.

What was before the Big Bang best explains 'my' concept.

NOW, is all that has always existed. . .

Desh:
There is a great danger to the reading of the VEDANTAS because it takes the reader to the hubris of preaching them without ever having practised them.
There comes the inescapable ebullience of surface grasping and study of these texts without having developed the true understanding and the silence that comes therein.
The study of VEDANTAS first leads you surreptitiously to subterranean arrogance and conceit, then exuberance of grasp and tolerance and understanding and only when one escapes from the sublime influence that they have on the reader's ego does settle the glow of silence and wisdom.

"How could anything extended in the concepts of "space" and "time" be other than a fabrication in mind, as a dream is?" --- Wei Wu Wei

"The seeker is the found, the found is the seeker - as soon as it is apperceived that THERE IS NO TIME." --- Wei Wu Wei

Karma.. I'm not sure if i believe in such a thing.. as in, if you do something "bad" you will be punished. But I do believe that like attracts like, and if we are negative people, we will draw negativity towards us, and if we are loving people we draw love to us. I think its just the wording maybe I don't like.. but i don't believe in reward or punishment... just energies, and how we respond to them.

And i would like to agree with Craig, that time is an illusion. Time used to be how we measured change (change of sunlight, change of seasons) but now it has crystalized in our outlook and we think that its a thing of itself. No, its just a mind game. I believe that people wouldn't age so quickly if they didn't measure their lives in years and ages.. they hit a certain age and expect things to happen (wrinkles, aches) and they do! The universe doesn't want to dissapoint, afterall.

I have no idea how we got on the subject of time, Andddd i'm much to lazy to go check, so i'll stop rambling for now.

Shekhar,
your resolve and your conflict is very thought provoking.I was talking to my girls they are 7 & 8 years old.I was telling them about accepting evryone and not to judge anyone as GOD created everyone equal.They had so many questions regarding different religions,morality...how the world is created.There one question was why bad guys continue to do bad things.Why so many people died in tsunami etc etc.I finally tried to answer their questions and said as they will read more they will understand more.

I read Shekhar's blog and sobhraj's response regarding Karma...it was such a slap on my face as i tell my girls about acceptance and not judging anyone.Being fair...etc etc...being responsible for their actions etc etc...Here is this man in Paris who wants to sell his life story and dismisses killing 30 people as Karma.

What kind of world i'm raising my kids in and all of a sudden i am very scared...and pray to GOD that they make good choices ...

Good point Andaleeb. It is indeed scary if people just pass things off as karma. Karma has become the most distorted word these days. Traditionally in India it just means Action, nothing more nothing less. Related to action is the law of cause and effect which has become shorthand these days for destiny. But when Indians want to talk about destiny they use different words - vidhi, honi, kismat, etc. - anything but karma. Of course, in the west Karma has come to mean what Shobraj intends it to mean. He needs to do a serious reality check and stop hiding behind the skirts of some grotesque distortion of a concept. It's also a pity that the rest of us have also picked up the western understanding (karma = destiny) instead of the Indian understanding of karma = action.

how can we experience love without facing its absense?

how can we grow without the seeds of polarities ...

gracing us ...

with the illusionary dancing of our unruled minds???

wanting to break free ..

into the presence of a merciful heart

that knows

there is no difference

we are all one

in these flashes

we have no control...

oh the merging of my heart with the starved spirit of the destituted indian young woman who melted in my arms ...

the glimpse of a floating black face when i was hijacked at gun point..

where I learned ...

"this too is holy..."

as I realized that throughout my life I had been the one pointing a gun at my own heart ...

killing off my dreams ...

making decisions that kept me emprisioned and separate ...

from that same oneness

that I seek ...

who am I to judge ???

who can stand away from the actions of a killer mind???

and yet

who am I

in that

which remains???

oh yes the memory of a striking moment ...

taken away to spaces of infinity I have no idea...

being placed on a table floating somwhere...

while hands of light beamed on me...

to hear

"you are healed..."

watching my consciousness floating upwards ...

so that I could see ...

that my body was made of pure light ...

a memory that conforts me ...

each time I delude myself

in the realms of insanity ...

in my denial ...

that Heaven is so very real ...

living right here ...

inside of me...

in this knowing ...

all is well

according to a higher plan ...

calling me home ...

in humbleness ...

that bows ...

to the sacred in everything

as in truth

what do I really know???

except that which evokes me ...

into the undescribable ...

no longer trapped ...

by the narrowness of my mind...

or the coldness of my closed heart ...

what a profound experience I have been given in these last few days ...

captured by fears and illusionaty realities that brought my heart to a stand still...

unable to feel my hands ...

struggling with every breath ...

till in forgiveness I melted

and in heaven I reached ...

knowing ...

this too is holy ...

necessary

to my ascencion

back HOME...

reminding me of Rumi ...

" every thirst gets satisfied except
that of these fish , the mystics
who swim a vast ocean of grace
still somehow longing for it !"

Dear Shekhar,

I want to share a story with you.

I was at Manasarovar a few months ago and during the trek fractured my elbow bone in a sudden fall. I was far behind the rest of the group and told them I would walk slowly, they should go ahead.

The sudden drop in energy levels made it impossible to walk any more and there I was between a formidable mountain and a deep, gushing, icy river.

All the while I felt the great spiritual energy centered there. Ready to go back, I just sat for a while on the mountain ledge. I had faced a set of impossible conditions just to get there, and I told myself: this is what is, let me be with it. I was completely isolated, completely tired.

Just then, a clear thought arose in my mind : that I should breath through my mouth. I did that and could feel the icy wind touch my throat with each breath. I was also filled with a deep empowering love which connected me with the rocks and water and wind and everything else. Miraculously, I regained strength instantly and began walking again.

We had learned a few learned Sadhu's in our group too and I wanted to talk about the experience when I reached the camp. One of them told me that in the we can draw energy from the atmosphere doing exactly what I had been doing. There were Chakra's associated with it and other such things.I did not have a clue.

I only remembered, I was helpless, I had surrendered to the moment and from the infinite wisdom that surrounds us, I was led to the right path and that saved my life.

That incident for me became the example for separating action and result, knowing the endless intelligence is always available, did away with a strange orphaned feeling I always carried within myself prior to that.

Regards,
Dipal

Divya you are very right KARMA is most abused word.Your explaination of karma was indeed how we were taught about KARAM = action.
I've noticed people say "bad karma" and have started using this word as destiny.

Shekhar,

where in my life i am now?

to say truthfully, where nothing more is to be known

where whatever is happenng is happening as per a perfect scheme of things (discovered by myself and explained in my book)and you are a mere spectator to events.

of course you are participating in them but as a bit more conscious child...

where, at the end, you will be left with it all, IT ALL - to which some like krishna say soul but which in actuality is quite an indescribable whole or What Is.

krishna's viraat swarupa.

however, to explain, there are three steps to reach this stage i am now in:

first you have that sudden experience of oneness of whole nature which i had as explained above, at the age of about 28.

then you are sort of again made to lose it, and rediscover it in a long drawn process of going inwards to your very roots. i went through this phase from 39 to 40.

to explain, after eight years of a life of total abandon some force from within again forced me to leave my job. yet it did not tll me what to do in lieu of. so to find out my next vocation, in fact to find out my raison de etre in coming into this world as i myself put it, i was forced to go on a long introspective journey - a journey inwards to your very roots, traversing the darkest recesses of your mind, to the limits of your being so to say...

here in the process i found everything chipping off myself, off my basic consciousness - outer world, every relationship, all...i sort of went to the other side of the world...beyond even death.. (a long story).

eventually when it was obvious that i could go no further, i had my insight regarding the working of the scheme of things of the universe, after which i sort of again came 'upwards..''normalitywards', back to this world...

in the next twelve years i wrote my book or rather got my book out of my system.

having done that now i think i am again left with nothing else but my free consciousness, here and now, i just accept the day/life as it comes each day...

like a bit moreconscious child or a bit more conscious dreamer...

perhaps you have read about a zen saying:

[before you begin the study of zen, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers; once you have begun the study of zen mountains are no longer mountains rivers no longer rivers; after you have completed the study of zen mountains are again mountains rivers again rivers..]

these three stages in fact depict the same three steps or stages i have gone through myself as described above...

harb

saying that this is my karma does not absolve me of getting punishment by the society for transgressing its laws...it is just an explanation..

in the overall scheme of things doing as per your karma...receiving punishment...getting rid orfree of them in the process partly thanks to that punishment is all in the scheme of things...

Bhrajis (Brothers) and Bahenjis(Sisters)!

All of you are doing fine in your own ways. Splatter this web space with further thoughts of the most profound nature, even if they appear muddled sometimes. It is still fun to read them.

I promised Shekhar to respond later. I want to keep my promise. I plan to come later to confuse you further, if I may. I give you my word I will not steal your ideas. I find all of you great thinkers - though convoluted at times; it might be due to my own weakness of not understanding you correctly.

Happy postings
TS

Dear Bob Fisher and Shekhar,

Here is what my friend Terence Gray (Wei Wu Wei) meant when he wrote the epigrams you attempt to quote here:

"Humility is the absence of anyone there to be humble"

Terence meant that any adoption of humility as an attitude constituted a false humility - resulting from one's attempt to simulate the state of being that would result from deselfing oneself (by dissolving one's sense of separate existence altogether). He was stressing humility is a quality that experienced by others in a person only when that person who is being experienced - is operating without a sense of separate self.

You quote him twice more:

"How could anything extended in the concepts of "space" and "time" be other than a fabrication in mind, as a dream is?" --- Wei Wu Wei

"The seeker is the found, the found is the seeker - as soon as it is apperceived that THERE IS NO TIME." --- Wei Wu Wei

What Terence meant here is that the very intent seek extends time by generating the necessity of a future point in time when the sought is found. He is further implying that all seekers are already the one who is to be found when the seeking quest is fulfilled. Seeking the self is rather like a dog chasing its own time. It extends time by going round and around and around...

To consciousness, i.e., what is reading this through every one of you, it is always here and now. There is never anything that ever happened to you that didn't happen when it was now and here to you then, and there will never be anything that will happen to you when it is not now and not here for you then.

I meant "dog chasing its own TAIL", not "TIME".

Oops! That should read "There WAS never anything that happened to you - that didn't happen when it was NOT now and NOT here to you then, and there will never be anything that will happen to you when it is not now and not here for you then. Even now, as you read this, it is still now and still here for you. To your consciousness there is only one continous evernow and everhere. Time and Distance are coordinates for you to navigate this evernow and everhere, known in physics as space-time.

Tanzan,

lol, you are a perfect example of man stuck in the Age of Reason and Anxiety...

your intellect will not let you live, your energy will not let you die....

sorry, now e are going beyond the Age of Reason and Anxiety to the Age of Intelligence and Intuition.

here direct experiences will be more valuable than intellectual hair splitting...

sorry to see your great intellect go at tangent sometimes...

no problem though all on the line... all in the scheme of things...

sid harth:

Completely agree with you, sir! I would want to escape this inevitability of "demonstration and argument" but for now this is the only way to understand things.

Besides, like in a mathematical equation - you use the known variables to get to the unknown.. this is my attempt to thrash out my "known" quantities.

"Questioning" Richard wasnt a critique as it was my own attempt to understand this further.

So... I guess its a journey where one moves from a lower consciousness to a higher one.. and while one is in the lower level - one can gather as much wherewithal to gain the energy to breach the next orbit.

Its like looking for the moon on "Karva CHauth" (Indian Festival when women fast all day and break it when they see the moon). When someone sees the moon... and has to explain where it is ... how do we do that? "Honey, do you see that large round building... and the tree next to it.. that rather longish branch of the tree on the right.. the Moon is just behind it!"

We have used ALL the knowns.. and then lead to "far off" thing using its lead... to go "beyond"!

RIchard:

Universal Accountant? Interesting word there!

I can only say what I believe in.. and it may probably show lack of sophistication of thought but this is the only way I could understand this Karma and God issue.

I liken God to the three branches of Government - Legislative, Executive and Judiciary.

As a Legislative body - HE created laws that even HE has no powers on... those laws dont get any "Constitutional Amendments" either! He and we are stuck with them for whatever they may be worth.

Now, HE can function ONLY as an executive or a judiciary.

As an executive of a "minimalist government" He can at best point us to inevitability of the "laws" through the "stirring of our conscience". Nothing more.

As a judiciary - He HAS TO implement the law as they were laid down. He is more of basic software program or a "postman" capacity. To think that He can change a Death Penalty to a Life Imprisonment will make him a corrupt judge - in my eyes. So he just looks at my list of Karmas and dispenses the verdict as the "box" tells him (another role as an executive).

In all these "roles" He "does" work but without it being "towards a deliberate end". Its His duty. Nothing more and Nothing less.

I know this is a very simplistic way to look at things.. but this helps me understand my role in my own evolution much better. For anything that happens.. I cannot point any finger elsewhere then.. nor look for help over and above that anyone else may be entitled to.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hi Shekhar,

It would not do us harm for a re-evaluation of Karma, this time as intended by seers and cooroborated By The Buddha himself..

This is a quote ‘Karma is a Sanskrit term. It means action or deed. Any physical or mental action is Karma. Thinking is mental Karma. Karma is the sum total of our acts, both in the present life and in the preceding births.
Karma means not only action, but also the result of an action. There is a hidden power in Karma or action termed 'Adrishta' which brings in fruits of Karmas for the individual. The consequence of an action is really not a separate thing. It is a part of the action and cannot be divided from it.
Karma is of three kinds, viz. Sanchita or the accumulated works, Prarabdha or the fructifying works, and Kriyamana or the current works. Sanchita is all the accumulated Karmas of the past. Part of it is seen in the character of man, in his tendencies and aptitudes, capacities, inclinations and desires. Prarabdha is that portion of the part of Karma which is responsible for the present body. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced. You pay your past debts. Kriyamana is that Karma which is now being made for the future. It is also called Agami or Vartamana.
In Vedantic literature, there is a beautiful analogy. The bow-man has already sent an arrow; it has left his hands. He cannot recall it. He is about to shoot another arrow. The bundle of arrow in the quiver on his back is the Sanchita. The arrow he has shot is Prarabdha. And the arrow which he is about to shoot from his bow is Agami. Of these, he has perfect control over the Sanchita and the Agami, but he must surely work out his Prarabdha. The past which has begun to take effect he has to experience
.In the case of Charles Sobhraj and in the light of the above, not only was he reaping his sanchita and his prarabdha, but has condemned his agami karma as well. The ostrich-head-buried-in-sand stance, is only a momentary escape ritual he has adopted. When the time for fructification of the seeds of these arrives, there will be no escape.I will want to go a step further to elucidate. Not only in extreme examples of Sobhraj, but in our day to day life, all emotions, feelings, sentiments, which may seemingly be just a little sarcasm ,or barbed comment, has its roots in a thought which has taken seed. It will now enlarge into a tree over time, further laden with fruits and therefore seeds, and so it goes on..Habits so difficult to erase, seemingly innocuous and innocent but with disastrous results ,only for the doer.Watchfulness therefore towards our thoughts motives and intentions and alertness that we are in the cumulative process of perpetuating for aeons either a good vibration or a negative one, gains precedence over any other channel of dissipation of our energy.

Meditation through vippassana, as taught by Buddha, has afforded me occasions,, whereI have experienced first hand the dissolution of my body, and an outpouring of an immeasurable gush of great love..something which words cannot do justice to. A state of ‘bhangura’ as described in his words. The feeling as you have mentioned is surreal and divine, coming out of it is torturous. But as was advised by my teacher, so simply and rightly, that what I was doing was getting attached to a sensation, when the purpose was to be a mere observer.. We have to go beyond those sensations too. These are only an important junction to have reached, but now has to be crossed. RE-living amounts to stagnating and craving , which has to be avoided. Obviously, we are all seekers, on our individual journeys. Had any of us been there, we would not have been here. But this is the sacred purpose of sharing in virtual realm..No personal gain only a giving for the sole purpose of enveloping as many into a possibility which may seem remote. An inspiring and energizing attempt, to say the least. One cannot pursue ones highest good without at the same time necessarily promoting the good of others. Who knows? Maybe it is inter-dependant!!

"lol, you are a perfect example of man stuck in the Age of Reason and Anxiety..." ~Harb

I had heard of the Age of Darkness (Kal Yuga) and the Age of Truth (Satya Yuga) in the philosophy of Hindu thought. Now what am I hearing ! Some new Age System of newer Hindu thought! Or did I forget the Vedas were being revised and are now in the process of self evolution. Pardon me Harb, my friend. It is so hard to get you sometime.

Are these annunciations coming after few goblets of some refined high grade stuff going down the gullet?

Oh, the foretelling looming large on the horizon!

Kind regards
TS

PS: I feel tempted to continue further with your other statements. But I am afraid you might take them to your heart. And I will, once again, have to pack those fried cheese balls dipped in hot sugar syrup for you.! Cheers.

Hi Kaveeta,

Thanks for sharing this knowledge and your insight into it.

Cheers, Heather

Dear Craig,

Quoting you: "Time itself is an illusion" Unquote

Correct.

Dear Ameya,

Quoting you: "I believe that people wouldn't age so quickly if they didn't measure their lives in years and ages.. they hit a certain age and expect things to happen (wrinkles, aches) and they do! The universe doesn't want to dissapoint, afterall." Unquote

I am glad to see that you know the secret at such a young age. But then, age is in the mind! LOL Right? Right.

Dear Bob,

I've observed your posts around here for some time and I know that you are a saint.....what we call a "fakeer" in the East. Enjoy!

Dear Kaveeta,

Your detailed explanation of the three karmas....Sanchit, Prarabhdha & Kriyaman was lucid. That is the base of Vedic Astrology as well.

Dear Andaleeb and Divya,

Quoting you:"Here is this man in Paris who wants to sell his life story and dismisses killing 30 people as Karma."

Both of you are absolutely correct at your indignation at someone who is passing off his crimes as Karma.

Dear Magenta,

Your post is the one which is the most precise and relevant one to this blog and answers the questions raised by Shekhar directly.

It all boils down to the intent of a person. The laws of the Cosmos take effect at the level of intention of a person and not at the surface level. A person maybe the most humble looking person in the whole wide world, but if that person secretly takes pride in being humble then the whole good effect is nullified. That's what Wei Wu Wei meant as Ravi has explained.

It's not about what you say, it's about what you mean and what your real intention is.

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Shekhar,
I took the liberty of sharing an "absurd" story in your New Year Resolution entry.

Let me try and give a direct explanation of the absurdist view (i did invoke Camus's "The myth of Sisyphus" on earlier occasion). The worldview of absurdism is one step ahead on "nihilism" (nothing matters, God is dead, everything is allowed - Nietzsche school), it says that even though nothing matters in this world, even though the age of reason is a failure, there is hope! The hope is in "revolt"! Absurdism says that even though, we know that we'll die one day, we still must build, we still must live each moment to its fullest. We must be our own gods, set our own rules and live life to full. This is the revolt that absurdism advocates. Objectivism (Ayn Rand et al) advocates free market materialism as the implementation of that ideal.

Coming back to action and its consequences. Consequence and action cannot be disengaged from each other, neither causally, not in the moral sense. These are woven together howsoever far they may be in space or time. On second thoughts, this relationship between action (say, a random smile!) and its consequence (date! ;-) ) is quite complicated. In fact there is whole science dedicated to this aspect of causality in material world (Dynamical/Non-linear systems).

So where does this leave our moments of "being"! amoral, alive to the moment and its music?
I have had those moments, mostly in mountains. I guess it is always mountains because they give a clear context, a clear goal and the actions required (climb!). Urban life is far too complicated to escape into the flow of action as the lurking alligators of mean studios, big egos, conceit and falsehood. I'll share my experience of those moments, with your permission, of course! We are waiting for your description of those "nirvana" moments.
thanks again for this post..
Tanzan.."cheese balls" remind me of Calvin...
Kaveeta, that was great post on dharma...

TZ,

Bertrand Russel in his book A History of Western Philosophy has divided our present AD era cultural cycle into Ages which if a little modified for the sake of brevity can be written as

1. The Dark to Middle Ages
2. The Age of Romanticism
3. The Age of Reason and Anxiety

I was speaking of the third from this book. According to my own book we are as a whole now passing beyond the Age of Reason and Anxiety and entering into the Age of Intelligence or Intuition...

The rest I will write after taking a peg of Old Monk...lol.

Harb

Hi Harb,
Is there, or was there ever
the Age of Truth?

Just wondering.

Cinda

Sorry Harb...just read Tan posted about the Age of Truth.

I must be in the age of confusion.

Cinda

Harbji,Tanzan,Kaveeta...or any one who can help me..

I am looking for a hindi poem ARJUN KA TYAG
I want to teach my children this beautiful poem..it goes like this.
Shama daya tap tyag manobal sabka liya sahara
nar wyaghr suyodhan kaho kahan kab tumse hara...

something like that...this poem was part of seventh or eighth grade NCERT hindi syllabus.shekhar's humility post reminded me of this poem..it has excellent lines like Shama shobhti us bhujang ko jiskey pass garal ho uska kya jo vish heen vineet saral ho)
Thanks

cinda,

The coming Age will be the Age of Truth as well. Things will change on our very face...It is happening in India..already...though in a small way...

Andaleeb, sorry I do not know about any such book. And thanks for appreciating my post on another thread some time back...

How can someone be ONE as long as one has some thoughts, some perspective, and worse--judgement like this?

And also:

* Does PRESENT exist? OR it is only transition between PAST and FUTURE? (not boundary made by line of some thickness, not a point of some dimension, but just transition where PAST ENDS and FUTURE STARTS)

* Given one has memory, won't it be just a pretension to claim living in present?

Kaveeta :

I love reading ur posts,they r Treasure and pleasure...

If I was
What I am not
And
If I was not
What I am

What would I be
If I had no lather
From whipped-up emotions
A crack in the heel, may be
If I had no lather

What would I be
If I lived on the hem
An unhinged door, may be
If I lived on the hem

What would I be
If I had not seen illusion
A cog in the wheel, may be
If I had not seen illusion

What would I be
If no demon lived in me
I would have been a demon
If no demon lived in me

What would I be
If I could dance
A fox doing fox trot
If I could dance

And what would happen
If I was
What I am
And
If was not
What I am not

http://sanitysucks.blogspot.com/2006/01/that-night-of-1990.html

What do you think, Harb?

Bertrand Russell's book on the History of Western Philosophy and your book on the Predictions ( perhaps already a history in some fire-watered minds) of Future Eastern Philosophy making a two-volume set!

Happy Fire-Waters
Tanzan Senzaki

Valmiki (the great poet of the epic Ramayan-not that I am a big fan of a story where "God" kicks his wife out into a forest while she is pregnant with twins) was a murderer to begin with, but that is not how he is remembered.
I only heard once that Baba told someone in an interview that even murders are meant to happen. The one being murdered chose it and the one murdering chose it for whatever reason. It is a mutual agreement about a lesson that wants to be learned by both parties.

Dipal Gala, that is a beautiful story. I would like to share my experience at Badarinath temple.Usually, I am a shy person, who believes in not speaking unless spoken to, not singing unless asked to.We went for morning Aarathi. They had closed the doors to get Badarinath ready for Aarathi. We were about 40 people waiting. A young lady started a bhajan, and we all followed. Then suddenly I heard my own voice singing loudly "OM NAMO NARAYANA" and "JAYA JAYA BADARIVISHAL". Everybody was following.Everyone in my group were happy but so surprised. Then after the Aarathi we went to Mahalakshmi temple and prayed to her. I sat infront of the temple and started singing and crying. I cried for the longest time. I was so moved by something there.It was such an unforgettable experience.I have been to many many temples. This temple of Badarinath is very special in my heart and mind soul.

Yes, Rita, those are indeed the spiritual laws,
as stated, but can you imagine taking that to a human court..?

But that too would be on pri-mordial level,

..lousy 'parties' people create for themselfs..
Culpa in Causa is the legal term for Vedanta..;)

Is ignorance bliss? or is bliss pri-mordial..;)

Love, Passion! and a good party ;)

"even murders are meant to happen. The one being murdered chose it and the one murdering chose it for whatever reason. It is a mutual agreement about a lesson that wants to be learned by both parties."

Dear Rita,
Yes, that's correct. But it makes sense only if you believe in the many lives theory, not if this is the only life we have.

That opens up another question. I would like to know from Intentbloggers if anyone here has seen (firsthand or trustworthy second hand) any proof of re-incarnation/re-birth happening during their lives? Do share with us.

Cheers!
Navin

Andaleeb

Sorry, I know nothing about this poem. But if you find it and your children do not speak/understand Hindi, I might be able to render the poem into English free verse for their pleasure. Please send it with a literal English translation.

Regards
Tanzan Senzaki

Dear Ravi Arapurakal,
Thank you for elicudating what Wei Wu Wei said.
I need all the help I can get because he is not an easy read. And when I, hopefully do understand what he says, it usually blows away old concepts.

It appears that Wei Wu Wei attaches great importance to this concept of time. It is the first chapter in the book I'm reading and is forty pages long. It starts with the verse:

The Seeker is the found,
The found is the seeker,
As soon as it is apperceived
THAT THERE IS NO TIME.

I would like to ask you a question, if I may.
In the chapter on Time, Wei Wu Wei, mentions the concept of 'ksana', the shortest space of time.
Are you familiar with this idea and it's signifiance?
Namaste, Bob

"And what would happen" ~ Rahul Pandita

Nothing would happen
My dear friend Pandita.
Heavens would not fall,
Earth would not shatter.

Moslems would keeping on fighting
Their holy war in Kashmir,
Killing their Hindu neighbours,
Raping their women,
Looting their homes.

And you would keep on writing
Your Yambarzal stories,
Stored in your memories,
To tell how cruel Islam is!
How mad man is!

Kind Regards
Tanzan Senzaki

Followers of Wei Wu Wei

The Seeker is the found,
The found is the seeker,
As soon as it is apperceived
THAT THERE IS NO TIME.

~ Wei Wu Wei

****

The dog wants to be hound
Not knowing it’s a hound itself,
But when all this is found
The TIME ceases itself.

It sounds all absurd,
Senseless stringing of words,
Seems to be coming for a nerd.

I don’t know who Wei Wu Wei is,
No sense lies in words like these.
But followers will follow him,
To get as confused as he is.

~Tanzan Senzaki

PS: Apologies to Wei Wu Wei and his follwers if there is something really profound in it.

Aloha Navin

How about the many worlds concept? Could it be possible we each have many worlds/cells within our bodies. We also have stem cells that revent cells all the time. I am sure you have had a wound that healed. Now if you want to say you witnessed the cells reincarnated I would have to agree. love patty

Dear Bob Fisher,

Terence is a unique writer because, unlike most of us, he focuses upon the conceptual infrastructure between us (consciousness or awareness) and the apparent physical universe (content of awareness).

While most of us are still viewing life through the conceptual infrastructure that was programmed into us, he has deconstructed and reconstructed his own to be consistent with his understanding of classical Chan wisdom.

While his prose is turgid, it is informed by this elegant conceptual architecture that is far closer to representing the world as it relates to us, than than our programmed conceptual architecture is.

This is why his work often serves as keys to unlock conceptual knots in the conceptual infrastructre that had been programmed into you.

The very title of the book you refer to is "Posthumous Pieces". He is using even the title of this book to dramatize the point that who his and who you are and who I am are all pure subject beyond time and space, whereas these 'pieces' that come forth through his concepts and his phenomenal existence as an apparent individual are indeed located in time, already dead from the moment they were incarcerated in the limited instrument of language, and therefore truly post-humous.

While this book does give quite some attention to time, there are several other books that use other facets of existence such as space, words, subject, object, concepts, self, no-self and so on.

I suggest you treat his work rather like the I Ching, the Chinese Book of Changes. It is a timeless and alive work. Scan his books. From time to time, you will find yourself tripping over a word or phrase. I mean hesitating. That's where there might have some special meaning for you.

Dwell upon the passage that tripped you; turn it over in your heart, and it is possible that it might yield up some transformative meaning that you are ready for.

Above all, don't take him literally. Your intuition will tell you where there might be meaning. You don't have to look under every word or phrase.

Bob, should you feel especially drawn to a phrase or passage that still doesn't make sense to you, let me have it, and I will try and help with it.

You can find me at my blog: www.ourself.org.

As for Ksana, it represents the shortest period of time that can be noticed. When seeing a movie, you might sometimes notice a single frame out of the 24 that run past you every second. When seeing a DVD it might be a single frame out of the 30 that speed by you every second. Similarly, a Ksana represents the period of time that a single moment of perception has no change occuring within it, no new cluster of atoms or molecules replacing an another noticably in the frame of perception.

Personally, I have no use for this concept of Ksana, as the absence of change is the absence of anything to notice, and the absence of anything to notice is that absence of any noticing, and the absence of noticing is the very absence of being. As change is what allows noticing to occur, long live change, Ksanas nothwithstanding. For otherwise, everything is silence and stillness.

Aloha Ravi

I bookmarked your site for when I have sometime to spend there. You are very impressive.... I never equated change with allow.

It is like the bamboo Chinese finger puzzel where you place your fingers into the bamboo tube and no matter how hard you try to pull your fingers or finger out, it tightens. It is only when you allow them to be they are free.

I had been stuck with the word change for awhile. Mahalo, it is like the one hand clapping...

love patty

MYSTERIOUS ARE THE WAYS OF ACTION.

He, who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is wise among men. He is the Yogi.

His undertakings are free from desire. Who has given up attachment to action and their fruits, does nothing, even though ever engaged in action. Wise call him a Sage.

Who is CONTENDED WITH WHATEVER IS GOT UNSOUGHT, is free from jealousy and IS BALANCED IN SUCCESS AND FAILURE, is not bound, though acting. He is a Karmayogi.

......

Many a times we observe people who earn money the wrong way or who seem to be doing bad things in the world seem to be more successful and happier than the ones who seem to be living their lives honestly and the right way, who help others always, meditate and pray.

Sometimes the good people seem to be getting bad luck always and always seem to find trouble while others who may not appear to do the good things always seem to have good luck. Some people seem to attract money and fame without putting in much effort while others seem to get none of these even after putting in lots of effort.

In short, the world many a times seems unfair. So, is it really unfair? Is God unfair? Even spiritual people, when facing bad times, sometimes question the fairness and grumble "if God existed, then this wouldn't happen to me"!

Oh human! In this universe, there is nothing that is unfair. The Absolute One is not partial to anybody. Everybody is equal for Him...

Hello all and good evening,

Seems there are people around here talking about 'my dog' Bertrand Russell: he is one of my greatest heroes (even though he was a smug prig. . .)!!!

Did not Joe Walsh, formerly of the rock band the Eagles have a hit song, 'living a life of illusion. . .'

Indeed

very fascinating post and comment shares...

i particularly liked that aspect of shekhar sharing his slipping into non-conflict zones a few moments in his life...

to me, residual conflict is an intrinsic quality of mind spaces irrespective of contents in contention.when we start observing this conflict, the witness in us is awakened and we grow in our abilities to witness.as we grow, we are able to see the mind chatter accompanying our experience of the event....our incessant comparisons, judgements,positionalities vis-a-vis the event in q and so on....witnessing enhances our abilities to experience and savour events, beyond mind filters and that allows for a more sustainable harmonios state of existential spaces....conflcits cannot be managed eternally through alternative perceptions...conflict can be "resolved" when one is able to see their emergence, not from events , but rather from something more intrinsic to us...

Hi Seema,

It was a pleasure receiving a note from you as well..If I am not mistaken ,I remember reading one of your earlier posts where you mentioned your hesitancy about writing here since you were not very comfortable with English as your medium of expression.Please do not worry on that score. I urge you to write and reveal your inner self as much as discover the real you in the process..If I know anything of this blog, it is that there is no dearth of warmth and appreciation:)

Thanks Heather I enjoy your posts:

Rakesh, hi and thanks..You mentioned dharma..did you mean dhamma as in vippassana?Just curious..thought you might be a fellow vippassi:)

Andaleeb, still on the look out for your poem:)

Love

Whenever I read these Blogs about so and so writer...this book that book...this philosophy...that philosophy...just this comes to my Mind:

Pothi padh padh jag mua Pandit bhaya na koi
dhai Akshar prem ka padhe so pandit hoi

well said seema,

pothi padh padh jag mua pandit bhaya na koi(the world has come to a dead end reading books but none became self-realized...)

over to Aurora...lol.

Seema and Harb: Why have so many of the Ascended Masters influenced books to be written then, with so many of their teachings and demonstrations about what every human soul is eventually destined to experience as being capable of?

Consider "The Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East"; or why does Sai Baba, or Deepak for that matter, use books and telecommunications so extensively?

Wayne Dyer has been taught by a Guru in India that should he even carry around a spiritual text of great renoun, without even reading it, the book's "high vibrational energy" will still have an impact on the one toting that book around!

Of course the answers are inside--but great written teachings are often the source of even learning where to look.

Love the continued exchange on this thread--Dave

How to act without being attached to the fruits of action. This is the Fernat's theorem equivalent of living. If you have cracked it you have done it, man! It is not only elusive, but impossible to to carck in pure rational terms. This is where realization, intitution, or whatever you call it comes in. This is like realizing a the nature of a GOOD God who also created evil. Or a Omnipotent God who laso gave us Free Will. BUt I know that it is possible ..but the path towards it is a kind of Buddhist path..of right living, right thinking etc. And then it happens. THe detatchment comes through a series of self-less but passionate cats committed across one's lifetime, I tend to think.

A correction to my post titled
"And what would happen" ~ Rahul Pandita

****
In the last stanza:

And you would keep on writing
Your Yambarzal stories,
Stored in your memories,
To tell how cruel Islam is!
How mad man is!

I would like to take out "how cruel Islam is!"
as I do not know Rahul Pandita's views on Islam. I believe he has nothing against any religion, as we all worship and praise the same God - only one God, though we try to realize him through different pathways.

So the last two lines should read as one line:

To tell how mad man is!

Tanzan Senzaki

PS: Apologies to those who might have felt offended.

Thanks Kaveeta...and tanzan

David:
Her is the English translation of second line...

Dhai Akshar prem kapadhe so padit Hoi

(just learn the meaning of two and half letter word prem and u will be scholar or self self realized)

Now Prem is hindi word which means LOVE

so instead of two and half letter word u can replace with 4 letter word LOVE

which is lacking so badly in some of the dry posts

Seema,

:)

You are doing great

david,

if everybody reads the posts running what can i do? the story began with my saying that one should not be COMPLACENT while reading books...

then i explained that there is something in us which burst forth or explodes from within and we have no control over it, it acts as per what may be called design and books have no say in its working BUT there is something (our body as opposed to that exploding force) which changes because of it in our bodies and to adapt to them or to even change them further for our survival and betterment we can take the help of books.

i gave the example of a house, which gets shattered by a explosion from withing. we have no control over thi explosion. but once the house gets shattered we can read books how to adjust to this 'new house' etc. but seems nobody has read about the difference and everybody is playing his own ego games...

Do anti clockwise motions = clockwise motions
Actions = Reactions
Good = Good
Bad = Bad
omshantie

Harb,

One of the things I agree with you on which is a powerful force that can take one over almost, much like the holy spirit, perhaps it might even be called God's will.

Some would say what about free will?

I would say but you do not know all of yourself, and there are parts greater that what you know as you.

So sometimes we do not know what our true higher will is.

Such as to say the Ego can be overidden, and it strings pulled and carrots held.

By the mysterious force.

Which is nto a mystery when you realize that it is ______

richard :)

Hi Harb,
I don't know about others, but I'm enjoying the fruits of my karma. ;) Had bought Union Bank at 113 a little before Christmas and today it crossed 137, a gain of about 22% in 2-3 weeks. Hope you had made use of that tip too. If not, too bad.

Cheers!
Navin

Navin, sorry no i could not, but what i had picked instead is also going great guns...i picked ifci at around 10, it is now 12.70.

navin, no doubt you are a great stock picker. I hope shekhar reads this and gets some benefit from your talent.

thanks, harb.

Dear Harb,
Thanks for the compliments. Yep, IFCI was also a great technical pick ripe for a bounce around 9-10 levels. I had advised that to some clients too. It is a totally news dependent stock and is going up on hopes of a government restructuring dole out. IF that happens, it can go up a lot. But do not get carried away by the current euphoria and keep booking profits from time to time.

Cheers & Good Luck!
Navin

Aloha Patty!
Is Aloha the name of some virgin island in Hawai? (wink, just kidding)

Yep, our bodies are nothing but the mirror image of the cosmos. What's outside our bodies is also inside. A seeker of truth can either go outside into the vast cosmos or inside into the vast depths of our very beings. Both ways, he/she will get the same result.

I do not know if your example of our body cells recuperating (as in wound healing) amounts to reincarnation. I was interested in knowin about any experiences anyone might have had to corroborate the theory of reincarnation. Till date I have not come across any authentic incident of such kind, that's why would love to know if anyone here has experienced it first hand.

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Navin,
You have so many diverse interests!
And you ask about reincarnation. Do you believe it happens?
If I go away for a while, I may come back with an answer for you!
Love,
~ Kate

Aloha, is a lovely greeting.
I also think of Hawaii, and the breathtaking sun and sky and water, and hula dancing!

Kaveeta:

Thanks for ur affectionate encouragement......

Hi Katie,
Good to hear from you. Yeah, when I was much younger (in my teens) I wanted to be known as the most versatile man in the world. ;)

I don't really have any conclusive proof in support of the reincarnation theory. But many religions/belief systems/para sciences like Astrology are based on the assumption that reincarnation exists. The entire Karma theory will crumble if there is no reincarnation and this is the only life we have. I have an open mind about this subject and haven't yet decided whether reincarnation exists or not.

Cheers!
Navin

"How can I find a way to live in that experience constantly ? It certainly never comes by calling out to it."

When you ask it, it means you want something & when you want something, you have moved away from this moment. So, stop asking & just be in the moment & be a witness to all thoughts, physical movements & emotions.....in other words, all desires.

You might already know all this though. ; - )

Cheers, Rohit

rakesh mawa, i am fascinsted by your travels and by the story you told about yr Tauji. Shekhar

K: Surprisingly, I read that the greeting, "Aloha," has three meanings: Hello, goodbye, and, "I love you!"

I'm sure the word has differing versions about it's Polynesian origing, but I like the triple maening. So, it is a great tool for us here on the Intentblog--and I'm also glad that Patty uses it, and now Navin, Bob, and....you! Dave

Aloha Navin
Actually the first I heard of reincarnation was many years ago at a rebirthing session. Today when I slip into my logical delusional mind of being a victim, my energy instantly changes when I remember to reincarnate in the present. It has always been birth, death and transformation in Hawaii. It is to align with nature.

In Western belief science and the church split long ago where scien