For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
Kavita Chhibber - March 18, 2006
Last night I sat at the house of a Muslim couple, as their son, and a few other boys were playing together, and this 12 year old boy-a prodigy of sorts, turned to her son and asked-why does Islam
always instigate violence? My friends both very secular muslims, were left speechless. Twelve year old boys don't usually ask such questions. The young boy went on to rattle specific incidents from history, and then he turned to us and asked if we had read about Dr Wafa Sultan.
The New York Times article which appeared on 11 March, and the video of Dr Sultan's interview, which was sent to me, were two of the most thought provoking pieces that I have seen recently. The courage of a lone woman to stand up and speak what has been on the minds of so many moderates, without worrying about the consequences, has won her many admirers, but the death threats that have filled her voice mail and emails to the brim, made the little boy say-it brings me to my original question-why does Islam always instigate violence?
For those who have not read this thought provoking article, I'm posting it here.
I wish for a world where religions can indeed co-exist together, but the truth sadly is so far from reality because of not the outsiders, but so often because of the insiders within.
"For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: March 11, 2006
LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.
Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.
In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.
She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.
Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.
In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.
"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.
Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."
Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."
She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."
She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.
She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.
DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."
"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."
The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."
Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.
But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.
"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County.
After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.
BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.
An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.
In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."
Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.
Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.
"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."
She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.
The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.
Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.
One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."
Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.
"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."
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Posted by Kavita Chhibber at March 18, 2006 06:00 AM
Comments
Hi Kavita, your blog is very timely. Thank you Kavita. Andaleeb one of our fellow bloggers had commented on another thread about how Koran was altered after the death of the Prophet. I have been curious since I have not read the Koran. I have many muslim friends. Common sense tells me that there are the good and the bad in Islam, as in any other religion. The sad part is the bad in Islam are in influential positions in religion and politics. As quoted in the article, political leaders, holy warriors, and clerics are the ones that have a distorted view of Islam.
Dr Wafa Sultan is definitely a fresh voice of reason, with common sense and great courage. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the article. God bless her and keep her safe. God bless you kavita.
Dear Kavita
Dr. Sultan's position, and her ability to articulate where she stands with such passionate sensibility, are critical today.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for standing up yourself and having the courage to share Dr. Sultan's courage and insight here.
Love, Heather
interesting...thanks for sharing.
i too have wondered why islam condones violence so readily (at least more readily than most of the other world religions). most of the conflicts in the world right now are between extreme islamists and everyone else (US vs. iraq/afghan, india vs. pakistan, israel vs. palestine). notice the second country is always a muslim majority country, and that islam perpetually uses violence as a means to solve conflict.
that being said, i think its also a cultural thing bc my muslim friends raised here (in the US) do not believe in violence at all.
hooray for dr. sultan! god bless her.
Fareed Zakaria in his book 'Future of Freedom' higlights the conflicts within the Islam world very well.It probes deep in the lack of religious authority in Islam and how some terrorist(s)with some recognition can issue a 'fatwa' whereas it was not meant to be that way.
What Islam needs today is more political reforms in countries like UAE ,where terrorism is the second biggest import to the world.
Fareed Zakaria in his book 'Future of Freedom' higlights the conflicts within the Islam world very well.It probes deep in the lack of religious authority in Islam and how some terrorist(s) with some recognition can issue a 'fatwa' whereas it was not meant to be that way.
What Islam needs today is more political reforms in countries like UAE ,where terrorism is the second biggest export to the world.
Aloha Kavita
Mahalo for your post, for myself to share about peace I have to go over there to come back to here or vice versa:) So please bare with me and if you are more confused just put it on the shelf.
Dr. Bruce Lipton in Biology of Belief shares our bodies with 50 trillion cells create communities of cells that work harmony with other communities of cells and we have trouble with just a couple of billion people. We have given our power away by creating a hierarchy of religions to talk to God for us an a hierarchy of doctors to heal us.
Dr. Lipton shares we are like walking Petri dishes. If you take unhealthy cells in a Petri dish place the Petri dish in a healthier environment the cells become healthy.
On the Larry King show in memory of Dana Reeves Deepak shared the importance of going to a doctor, is to listen to the diagnosis, take action but don’t believe the prognosis. What he is saying in essence what he is saying is to step into the fear, hear the diagnosis but don’t throw the baby out of the bath water because the power of the prognosis is not just a external view it is a internal view and more. It is a joined experience of a peace without conflict.
It is a given when we step into fear to reclaim our power our internal environment will be reflected in the external. We are the field of possibilities. Dr. Sultan did that in listening to understand to be understood. The baby is self-knowledge becoming self-power. Love patty
Kavita....Most in the world think or equate like Islam=Violence. Is the world wrong to think that way is a thought provoking question by seeing the present scenario of the world. Tampering?? Mind you Islam is not the only religion which has been. It's a Classic point actually in religious studies...that down the road after the Prophets each one has been tampered by the followers over centuries according to their views and convenience. THE Saddest part of the religion.
Anyway...I do see a lot of turbulence everywhere in the world. No country is going to sit quiet. There will be questions flying all over! God knows in which directions will mankind as a whole wiil head to in the coming times.
Love..Sachin
type error..will
It's all part of taking out the industry of religion.
It is what is happening.
Hi Kavita,
Thanks for posting this great article. I am in awe of courageous women like Dr. Wafa Sultan who put their own lives on the line to reform Islam.
I still have always beleived that terrorism exists because of power vacuums in countries where a wealthy minority are the "haves" and the impovrished, uneducated masses are the "have-nots". Throw in a little fundamentalism (power-hungry clerics and radicals who want to imortalize themselves as those who changed the world order) and BOOM, you have people blowing themselves up to prove a point that's not really theirs.
I remain positive that most people would be moderate if given the opportunity and the advantages that most of us on this blog have.
Kanika
oops, that would be "had the opportunities that most of us on this blog have."
I don't think the issue is one of religion but one of culture and civilization. There are Jewish and Christian groups alike who would commit barbaric acts in the name of god is the cultures they live in would condone it. Do you think Pat Robertson wouldn't put people to death if he had the permission? He has already called for the execution of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, what if he were given license to expand upon these ideas with societal permission? What would he be advocating in 10 years? There are Jewish elements who advocate the same thing, there's just so few jews in the world, and most spend so much energy assimilating, there's even more cultural pressure on them to live peacefully. Even in India there are Hindu groups who advocate brutality against Muslims.
So you see, this isn't about religion, this is about culture and society. Exactly like Dr. Sultan says, a clash between barbarianism and modernity.
Great article. God bless us all.
I don't think the issue is one of religion but one of culture and civilization. There are Jewish and Christian groups alike who would commit barbaric acts in the name of god is the cultures they live in would condone it. Do you think Pat Robertson wouldn't put people to death if he had the permission? He has already called for the execution of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, what if he were given license to expand upon these ideas with societal permission? What would he be advocating in 10 years? There are Jewish elements who advocate the same thing, there's just so few jews in the world, and most spend so much energy assimilating, there's even more cultural pressure on them to live peacefully. Even in India there are Hindu groups who advocate brutality against Muslims.
So you see, this isn't about religion, this is about culture and society. Exactly like Dr. Sultan says, a clash between barbarianism and modernity.
Great article. God bless us all.
Dear Kavita,
It's so good to see you back...
I can understand all sides. I don't think violence and intimidation are only an Islamic issue. I cheer for the women who stand up against threats from any side. It's too bad that Sonia Gandhi had to resign when she received death threats. I understood her reasons, but justice did not win on that occasion.
I wish all women (and men) in the world that they'll soon live in peace, respect and dignity.
Love,
Donatella
I read the article on the day it came out. Dr. Sultan joins the ranks of people like Salman Rushdie and a few courageous other moderate Muslims, who have decided to take the risk of saying truthful things that need to be said.
Whoever becomes a public truthteller always irritates those for whom the truth is a downfall. Whatever it is. Telling the truth to a loved one or family member you are having problems with is risky. Telling the truth about your job or company to your boss is risky. Telling the truth to politicians who profit from war and corruption is risky. Telling the truth to religious fanatics is among the most risky of all these.
On another note, the 12-year-old boy's question, while thought provoking, is not completely accurate. Islam does not always instigate violence. The sad truth is that some violent people use Islam as a pretext to commit their ugly acts against God, man, and nature.
I was also reflecting that it isn't just Islam. The same question could have been asked of extreme fundalmentalist Christianity. Or, what about the USA's new policy of pre-emptive war? Soon some American 12 year olds are going to start asking "Why does America always instigate violence?"
What would our answer be for that? What would we say to the 12 year old who sees Americans bombing away in the Middle East on the pretense of "We thought the other country was capable of attacking so we attacked them first?"
The question is difficult because the answer goes something like this: on the whole, Americans don't believe in attacking other countries before they have started attacking. Unfortunately, power has been usurped my a minority of extremists who think violence will give them even more power and influence.
Then the real hard question is going to come: "Why do we give power to people like this?"
It's soul-searching question that cuts deep. From Ghenghis Khan, to Alexandria the Great, on down through history to people like Hitler, Stalin, and now Osama Bin Laden and George Bush:
Why do we give power to people like this?
Cheers,
Yogi
I am amazed to see your atrocity in the post, Kavita... Really sorry, but I had always been a fan of your blogs until today.
I wonder if this blog was just to fill in a space or was it actually supposed to mean something. I dont understand, why, when anyone has nothing at all to say, he brings up the topic of Islam to criticise?
With due respect everybody... But religion is something very personal. Why do you always have so much to talk about Islam? Have you solved all the matters that should be your priority at the moment? Also Islamists are all a family. some agree and some disagree. This is our personal matter and none of you is invited to discuss it.
I dont understand why the US war against Iraq is labelled as Fight against terrorism and not violence itself. Are these not double standards?
Why dont you discuss demolition of Babri Mosque by Hindus in your next blog, Kavita?
Sorry Kavita..I had to comment here. Maybe you can find out the name of this Anonymous. I can tell you with certainty it will be khalid ahmed or salim. Did you wonder btw why the actual name was not given?
Atrocity Kavita?? Can u believe that You've commited Atrocity. Now wait..I'll issue a Fatwa against you:)) Jesus Christ!! This is the world we live in.
Sleep!! Was from Pallavi....that is what most are doing in the name of Tolerance and Progression. Sleep and you'll find out what will be there One morning!
Sweet Dreams....Sachin.
Hey Sachin,
dont worry about finding out my name... It is Sadia Haashmi. Even I am an Indian and a Proud Muslim.
Now better stop budging into my religion... do what your religion tells you to do, instead of issuing a Fatwa
Hey Sachin,
dont worry about finding out my name... It is Sadia Haashmi. Even I am an Indian and a Proud Muslim.
Now better stop budging into my religion... do what your religion tells you to do, instead of issuing a Fatwa
Thank you very much all, for your thought provoking posts. Sachin what are you doing up so late!
Steve, Geeta, Heather, Magenta, Utopian, thank you very much for your posts. Magenta that was a really interesting observation- that most of the conflicts in the world right now are between extreme Islamists and everyone else (US vs. Iraq/afghan, India vs. Pakistan, Israel vs. Palestine). Notice the second country is always a Muslim majority country, and that Islam perpetually uses violence as a means to solve conflict.
Utopian I will order Fareed’s book shortly. I have always enjoyed his articles.
Sachin and Patty, you are so right in your observations, and I resonate with your thoughts.
Yogi-one, your post has touched on so many pertinent points that we could have a discussion on just that one post for days taking each aspect. Thank you so much for posting. Thank you very much Mark-ditto about your thoughts.
Thank you Donatella. You are one of the gems here.
Anonymous, sorry if I inadvertently hurt your feelings. I do have to say that I never write anything to fill empty spaces, nor do I write to win popularity contests.
I feel that you have missed the entire point of the post. It is not to indulge in Islam bashing as you may have presumed but to look at the points a young child raised after perhaps reading media reports, or as a result of a school project. A friend of mine told me his 8th grader and many of her friends had done projects on the Middle East in schools studying Pakistan, Israel and Islam along with it last month. She has asked her parents the same question. I’m sure when they study Christianity or Hinduism, America or the world, other questions will crop up that will be as difficult to answer.
For me the bigger religion is humanity and I look at life without looking at scriptures and react to what I see before me. And like Dr Sultan I wonder what if it was my brother blowing himself up in the name of religion. How does it affect the clerics and fundamentalists who brainwash these young boys and tell them they will attain paradise if they blew themselves up and took some more innocent lives. I wonder if you saw Barbara Walters’ interview with a Palestinian man in an Israeli Jail answering questions on why he became a suicide bomber. It was most heart breaking
What I see today is my moderate Muslim friends being ostracized and shunned because they have the last name Khan. Why? Perhaps the answers lie in some of the points that Dr Wafa Sultan has raised in her interview. The video I saw showed the cleric who was addressing her totally at loss for words. Not once did he defend himself or Islam articulately against her remarks. Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.
I would request you to think through the article would love to get a feedback, backed with facts and your thoughts on it, instead of being mad at me. And btw Babri masjid has been discussed on this blog as have many other issues that are supposedly volatile, and many of the people who have written their comments don’t use an alias.
Kanika thank you for your comment. Your blog really resonated with me because I have grown up in Jammu and Kashmir, gone to many of these shrines and prayed with my Muslim friends, until the world began to change..mercifully people that I know haven’t-and that is a blessing I cherish.
I think some of the most bigoted people I have seen are also the most educated and privileged, so I don’t know if it has anything to do with being a privileged lot. I used to see rich men sipping wine of the most expensive kind talking about being staunch communists.
I believe firmly that it’s never religion but our environment, upbringing and our circumstances that make us who we are and that is why Dr Sultan’s comments are so important in today’s world. We really need to take a step back and think why things are the way they are and whether this was how it was originally supposed to be.
Hi Sadia,
just saw your post.
Nice to get to know you with your real name as well.
Again, please do read the post and do tell me what you think about Dr Sultan's interview. would love to get your feedback. Maybe we can all learn something from you
Thinking of You as always:)) and being your Guardian Angel:)). I think it must be something to do with Past lives Kavita...I wonder why does it comes so naturally to me to Protect you.
No..No..No..No I' going to Issue a fatwa. Huh..How dare you do that?
Take care..Sachin
I also have to add that what Yogi and Mark said are really key-it depends on who holds the reins and the supposed answers to issues..a gun in the right hands becomes a weapon of protection-in the wrong hands it becomes a weapon of mass destruction-the same can apply to religion or anything that can be potentially divisive or can create hatred and close-mindedness.
Also Magenta, I strongly feel that US is greatly responsible for the tragedy of Iraq, and training the Taliban in Afhanistan. The wtc tragedy and the hatred America arouses in the world is the price we've paid for handing over reigns in the wrong hands.
thanks Sachin for your kind words.
Oh Yeah Now back in a serious frame of mind Kavita...Wonderfully written in reply!! That Typical sensitive down to earth writing of yours.
If you take a brahmin infant and bring him up in the fundamentalist atmosphere...he will come out like that. If you take a muslim infant and bring him up in a brahmin family doing rituals after waking up every morning, he'll turn out like that.
So...as you said circumstances have a big role in such matters!!
OK...now if you behave yourself properly I'll cancel the Fatwa, the same as I did against Gotham...but if you say one word more...I'll issue Double Fatwa! One already for Dr Sultan and one for you. Is my humor ok? What if someone Issues one for my humor?
Love..Sachin
Sadia – I appreciate your courage in taking a stand against the entire crowd on this blog. But I don’t agree with your statement that Islam is not anyone else’s business. Islam is very controlling and aims to extend its control to as many people as it can. Many of us resent this and are well within our rights to complain about it and discuss it.
Your point about the Babri Masjid is also not particularly valid. Are you aware that Islam has destroyed over 600,000 temples in India. What’s one lousy mosque in comparison? And as Kavita pointed out, the Babri Masjid has been discussed ad nauseum by hindus who still have a dhimmi mentality. You do know what dhimmis are, I hope? What is your opinion on dhimmitude? Does that make you proud to be Muslim too? I could say a lot more, but since you are probably going to battle this alone, I’ll stop here.
You’re right though, the U.S. war against Iraq is a terrorist act in every way. It’s double standards of the worst kind - with complicity from both liberals and conservatives.
Age Old Nonesense!
Every major religion, at some point in its evolution and history, has used violent means to quell opposition to its dogmas beliefs. When you think that religion's main purpose is to propagate peace, love, harmony, goodwill and forgiveness, it is hard to understand why it has used violence against those who dared to speak out.
The Roman Catholic Church has used the Crusades to slaughter millions, conquer lands, gain power, spread its teachings and proseletizing its many tortured and scared victims, while the Inquisition has silenced its own for standing up for they believed to be the truth. Bruno was burned to death at Rome in February 1600 for postulating the existence of other worlds in the universe, Galaleo was asked to recant his claim that the earth revolves around the sun or face death, Copernicus was put under house for 15 years for suggestion that the universe was heliocentric as opposed to geocentric, and so on.
One of the main tenets of Islam is its claim that to die as a martyr, one is guaranteed a place in heaven, hence the perversion of this religion by so many fanatics, resulting in these incredibly horrific acts of human destruction and the disturbing rise of jihadism in the world.
It is imperative that we educate the world and not continue to spread ignorance and nonsense. Education and the discovery of truth are our only hope. Not so long ago (500 yrs. to be precise) we believed that the earth was flat and that the sun magically swung around it every 24 hours.
Can you now see how stupid that concept was?
We must end dogmatism and fanaticism and embrace reality and science. Religion is an institution whose time has long become superfluous and irrelevant. It's time to move on.
All the power to Dr. Wafa Sultan! Millions more in the Muslim world ought to emulate her stance and emerge from the age of darkness. The truth shall set you free!
Religion must end violence as a means to keep its subjects in check. Muslim clerics, instead of condemning Dr. Sultan, must asks its own followers to abandon this damning culture of suicide bombings and human destruction.
We must embrace truth and peace; not age-old lies and violence!
Peace.
Aloha Kavita
One thing that the Dalai Lama shared about China, that it is the Chiense that have lived abroad, Canada or America, are able to go back into China and will make a difference. Their veiw will have changed and it is forgiveness that bridges. I wonder if Dr. Sultan is in formed about the Scholars for 9/11 Truth. The link is: http://www.st911.org/ That was so very sad what happened to her professor. Justified anger is just as unhealthy as unjustified anger. I
love how Shekhar on another thread acknowledged he not a director but ficton. We all have to go deep to come out abstract. If not we are sucide the bombers. We have to keep cleaning house, trusting and having faith (acting as if) for we live in a world of delightful uncertainity. love patty
Sadia: I also "Ditto" Divya's comments toward your stance here--and I might add, Divya's positions rarely agree with my own, yet in every instance, Divya clarify's and articulates her postions with an amazingly astute mind and "laser-sharp" reasoning.
We have learned much, and on many diverse issues, from Divya, and consider her supremely independent and exceptionally well-thought out stances to be of invaluable contribution to the nature that the Intentblog, as it has revealed itself to be.
I do indeed hope you will consider Kavita's invitation-by-questions, as one that invites you to be inclusive, regarding your feelings of "exclusivity" as it pertains to the orientation you've expressed, or at least strongly "implied," and that you will indulge Divya's style in developing your contributions here, so that we may learn from you.
As for my own paradigm-of-thinking, I was dumbfounded by the courage and reasoning of Dr. Sultan, when I recently turned on CNN, after weeks of "media fasting," to find this woman's indomitable spirit taking on the massive power and influence of the hard-line entrenched power-structure that has, in my estimation, considerably damaged the true meaning and intentions of the Prophet Muhammad's most distinctive lifetime.
Look forward to hearing whatever it is you might feel moved to share here on this "illuminating" forum of such diversity!
Thanks for actively "stepping into" in the Intentblog. Dave
some might be interested to take a glance:
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1674_0_25_0_C
Dear Sadia
Religions are a personal matter when they do not attack others, are practiced with tolerance, justice and for the advancement of one's own consciousness/soul. However if they choose to disrupt/denegrade and violate others lives then I'm afraid they become a public issue.
As a muslim and a woman, you, me and Dr. Sultan epitomize Islam. All three women, literate, and living or at least exposed to the oppression of an accident of birth.
All three of us have known the discrimination, suppression, denigration that we are assigned by birth as women, thanks to Islam. All three of us have also known the secular intellect which allows freedom of thought, raising of consciousness, and access to the truth of being. Unfortunately that's where the comparison ends.
Dr. Wafa Sultan is the rare miracle of being for she has taken on that where now even the Gods fear to tread. She has staked all personal safety, security and even her life to stand up for what she believes in. For frankly that is what it means to speak out against Islam. I have thought every word she has spoken and more, known every truth she is mouthing and yet I have no courage to speak it out publicly so I am a mere shadow of who she is. And there must be scores of women and possibly some men like me too. Fearful of articulating the truth they carry in their hearts. This is the legacy of the great religion of our birth. Indeed it is a personal matter as you say, unfortunately so personal that we do not even have the freedom to let our lips articulate it , lest our ears betray us to the wrath of the protectors of Islam. And that is who you are Sadia, one who lives the lie, perpetuates it and joins hands with those who can justify laying down others lives for speaking their own truth.
It is not the muslim clergy, the jihadis or the terrorists who keep Islam in the dark ages. It is people like you who have access to every living advantage of being a human being and yet pledges herself to the spirit of barbarism.
The question is why? Unfortunately Sadia you are the one I address only because you happen to be a prototype of the worst modern malaise. In effect, I address all those like you who call themselves secular muslims, progressive muslims and so forth. There is no such thing in Islam, they are only oxymorons. Dr Wafa rightly gives you invoilable truths to ponder. The Jews have not blown churches or created live bombs to 'teach the 'gentiles' a lesson even after a modern RECORDED horror like the Holocaust. They have instead used ther intelligence and modernity to stake their place in the world. Three priceless statues of Buddha have been blown up recently by the Taliban. The buddhists did not retaliate in any violent way. Islam can set the world on fire over some two penny cartoons, it can force a writer like Rushdie to spend half his life underground for having a literary perception of his own. These are events in your time and your age. They are the writing on our wall Sadia as muslims. We bear witness to these and must be held accountable for them. But you cannot see them why?
The gift of Islam my dear. Brew endlessly in your victim psyche and perceive all as the enemy. Whether you officially call them kafirs or not, live in fear and hence anger. Any thought and reason which may intervene thanks to a larger/modern/humane perception of life must be sacrificed at the altar of lies and an exaggerated sense of tragedy.
You wrote as Anonymous first only because your truth is not your own. And logically how can one feel rooted in a story which dates back to a man called a prophet whom you never met, his life story and his beliefs which reverberate of a time you cannot even imagine? His tale only generates fear, paranoia and a massive victim psyche. Is it a surprise that his legacy carries a singular barbaric code of being in a world where others have moved on in light years. Dr Wafa is right when she says civilizations don't clash they only compete. The Islamic world clashes for it is not a civilization.
As for being a proud Indian Sadia I don't think that is possible either. Your India extends to the Babri Masjid and as Divya rightly points out now the history of 600,000 temples once destroyed by muslims. You are only a muslim Sadia and that means fearful, angry and paranoid. Leave pride to those who can step outside the confines of their identities, intolerance, untruths and ghettos.
I am sorry for the harsh tone of my post. Perhaps the anger is as much at myself for not having the courage and the clarity of Dr Wafa. Or perhaps also somewhere being part of the same lies for the longest time in my life. Sadia I have spent precious years working in Pakistan as an activist. Struggling with the barbaric veils of lies and misogyny to give other women and children just a slightly freer air to breathe. I guess my anger goes back a long, long time.
I just want to add that I understand where you speak from yet I don't. For in attacking Kavita and Dr Wafa you ally yourself with something which is not even your own- a borrowed belief system. But what you do manage to do is decry everything else which is yours-your mind, your intellect, the great gift of a modern world of easy access to myriad knowledge and information, the adventure of expanding your own consciouness and the passionate journey called individuation.
I dont know if you know the story of Al Hallaj Sadia. He was the muslim who transcended the confines of his religion and declared An al Haq (I am truth) and for that his eyes were gouged out, his tongue ripped out, his limbs torn out, by the religious clergy whilst liberal and fanatic muslims watched on....that is the legacy that still holds true. Think about it.
Sadia,
Your point about leaving islam alone raises a laughable tinker. Did you and your ilk leave other cultures alone? Did you and your ilk not have a point of view against other countries and their way of life? Did you never come across an elementary concept of life that tells you when you give one, you get one?
Thank you Sachin, Divvya, AJ, Patty, David and Sumant for your posts, and for adding to the discussion here and making us all think.
Anusheh, I felt really sad reading your post. You frustration and sorrow came through and moved me deeply.
I think your thoughts are relevant for all of us in more ways than one. We fumble only because we are afraid and none of us can say we havent been there. I have -many times, but losing that fear is such a liberating thing.
I hope all of us can take baby steps in our lives and work on eliminating that fear. It's a very debilitating emotion and always stops us from being honest, makes us hesitate and become unfocused and also stops us from fulfilling our true potential.
thank you all for sharing
Hello Kavita and Everyone,
Anusheh, a beautifully articulated comment, and yes, the courage of Dr. Wafa is breath-taking.peace ruth
Stunning Posts!!! Terrific! My first thought when I saw the name "Anusheh Hussain"...I thought he wud blast off this site and people, which humorosly in mild form I was trying to do for Kavita..the fatwa. Such an honest "Self Reflective" Post from yourself Dear Kavita! No more Fatwas for you:)). Pardon me for the humor if at all you're not enjoying it Kavita. Inke Ragon mein kya hai main jantha hoon, Inki samajh kithni hai main jantha hoon, Ye kis hudh tak apni Deewangi leja sakthe hai main jantha hoon! I'll never fold my hands and watch the madness! Anyway....
SUPER!!is all I've to say abt Anusheh's Post. He has put in so much time&energy to write it at that level, perhaps very well knowing it wud fall on deaf ears. Good on you Buddy!
I don't know how many more Rushdies and Sultans will be needed to see the shift which we dream of, Oh not to forget the Anushehs...that's where it's got to percolate after all. Knowing the power of fundys(not underestimating their power) it wud require close to a Million of Sultans and Rushdies to have that shift. I've never been Fond of Dreaming! I like to see things as they are, not color them to my liking and wishes...like to see The Hardcore Reality!
Thanks&Love..Sachin
"You are only a muslim Sadia and that means fearful, angry and paranoid" - Wrong generalization based on one's own experience.
"His tale only generates fear, paranoia and a massive victim psyche" - False observation due to the limitation of the perception
"He was the muslim who transcended the confines of his religion and declared An al Haq (I am truth) and for that his eyes were gouged out, his tongue ripped out, his limbs torn out, by the religious clergy whilst liberal and fanatic muslims watched on.." - Wrong observation due to ignorance. He is still reverred by many muslims, who understand what he said and why he said.
"I have spent precious years working in Pakistan as an activist. Struggling with the barbaric veils of lies and misogyny to give other women and children just a slightly freer air to breathe. I guess my anger goes back a long, long time." - hope your efforts bear fruits soon and you can overcome the anger and make good will as the foundation of your socail work. And best wishes
Generalization!! IS the Rt word for what Anusheh So wonderfully Expressed. Only a small % of exceptions to what he said...that % is perhaps in millions. I myself can write tonnes of Posts of that small %.
Shall I Kavita? The Bright side? Are you shocked to know that it Exists?? It Does Exist! Vaise Identity Rashid Khalid Liaqat tho nahi hai? I sometimes wish I was the Contributor like you people, I cud have found out so many things.
Truly..Sachin
Dear RKL,
thanks for posting this link. I'm posting this in it's entirety. Divya, your knowledge far surpasses mine in this area, and anusheh, yogi-one, David and others who have commented here, please do tell me what you think of Dr Hassaballa's opinion.
Dr. Wafa Sultan: A Lost Opportunity
As I listened to Dr. Wafa Sultan speak about the crimes committed by Muslims throughout the centuries, I thought to myself, "Here we go again."
By Hesham Hassaballa, March 13, 2006
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At first, I had hope in Dr. Wafa Sultan and her stinging criticism of the Muslim World. I had hoped she would shed light on the darkness in which the Muslim World today is wallowing and help it out of this darkness by showing it the light of true Islam. I had hoped this international sensation would add to the debate raging within the Muslim World between the extremists who - with their murderous tactics - threaten to destroy the Muslim ummah and the reformers to wish to save it from utter destruction.
Unfortunately, however, I was wrong. As I listened to her speak about the crimes committed by Muslims throughout the centuries, I thought to myself, "Here we go again, another one of those." Her story is typical: a daughter of a devout grain trader from Syria, Dr. Sultan was raised a devout Muslim and remained one into her adulthood. That is until she witnessed the murder of her medical school professor in 1979 by Muslim gunmen shouting "God is great!"
"At that point," Dr. Sultan said, "I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
Her search for "another god" has led to her conclude that "The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings."
Although I hoped she meant that the "clash" we are witnessing is between civilization and religious extremism, in listening to other statements made by the good doctor, I realized that the "Middle Age mentality," the "backwardness," the "primitive," the "barbaric" to which she was referring was Islam itself. Her response to a question about who started the Crusades left me near speechless:
"The Crusader wars about which the professor is talking – these wars came after the Islamic religious teachings, and as a response to these teachings. This is the law of action and reaction. The Islamic religious teachings have incited to the rejection of the other, to the denial of the other, and to the killing of the other."
Are you kidding me? The Crusades were a response to Islamic teachings? Does not the good doctor remember that the Crusades started more than 400 years after Umar (R) first entered Jerusalem? And to what were the Crusaders - who slaughtered both Jews and Muslims until their blood was knee-high to the Crusaders' horses - exactly responding? What did the Muslims and Jews who were killed in Jerusalem in 1099 do to those European Knights?
The more I listened to what she had to say, the more I realized that she was simply the latest of a legion of critics who reflect upon the religion of Islam the sins of some of its followers. It is a tired, old tactic, but in today's age, people who do so are in no shortage of an audience. Dr. Sultan said: "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them." She also questioned why "a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?"
Good point and good question. Yet, does the good doctor not know that the overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world also do not destroy churches, kill people, destroy embassies and burn flags? Does she not know that the majority of Muslims around the world reject the violent rhetoric and tactics of the extremist mutants? Does the good doctor not understand that Islam does not condone suicide terrorism, even if said suicide terrorist claims that Islam is his (or her) motivation? Apparently not.
Does the good doctor not realize that simply because some Muslims horribly twist the faith of Islam for evil ends, it does not follow that the whole faith of Islam is evil? Does the good doctor not realize that simply because some criminals murder in the name of Islam, it does not follow that Islam itself is criminal? Does the good doctor not realize that simply because barbarians have usurped Islam for their bloody barbarism, it does not follow that Islam itself is barbaric? Apparently not, and this makes me truly sad indeed.
Yet, whatever she had to say about Islam and Muslims, the reaction of some Muslims to her comments are nothing short of absurd, immoral, and patently ridiculous. According to the New York Times article, shortly after the Al Jazeera broadcast, clerics in Syria declared her an infidel. The article said that, "one [cleric] said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported."
The other guest on the Al Jazeera program, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because "she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad, and the Koran." Since then, according to the New York Times, she has received numerous death threats. One message on her answering machine said, "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." An email was sent to her saying: "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."
Why? Why are some Muslims so threatened by her criticisms of Islam, however misplaced they are, that they are willing to threaten her - a fellow human being, a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister - with death? Certainly God is not threatened by her statements. So, why should we be?
Rather than silence her with the threat of death, why not engage her questions in an open, honest, and forthright debate? What if she has some valid points? Wouldn't the whole ummah be benefited by her insights, if there are any? No, these Muslims refuse to listen to what she has to say and would rather declare her an "infidel" and end the discussion. They are acting like the people of Abraham (pbuh), when they were confronted with the absurdity of their idol worship. Rather than admit that Abraham (pbuh) had a point, they responded by saying: "Burn him and give aid to your gods..." (21:68).
Now, I am neither equating Dr. Sultan with the Prophet Abraham (pbuh), and nor saying these Muslims clerics are defending idolatry. Far from it. Nevertheless, the violent reaction to Dr. Sultan's criticisms of modern-day Muslims only serves to solidify her apparent point: that Muslims have become a backward, barbaric people at odds with modernity and civilization.
Truth, it is said, does not fear investigation. The Qur'an itself calls upon its readers to ponder and reflect over the Sacred Text: "Do they, then, not ponder over this Qur'an? Or, are there locks upon their hearts?" (47:24). What is essential is that such questioning and pondering be sincere and in good faith. Are the commonly-held beliefs and practices of Muslims truly rooted in the Divine, or are they simply taboos and cultural norms wrapped in the cloak of Islam?
There are many practices that many Muslims deem to be "Islamic" which have no basis in Islam at all, such as the shame of so-called "honor killings." Yet, this would never be found out if no one was allowed to question such practices free from threat of death. Muslims have to learn how to debate and discuss critical aspects of their faith without resorting to threats and ex-communication. Otherwise, the problems that fester in the Muslim World will never be solved, and the entire world will suffer because of it.
Hesham A. Hassaballa is a Chicago physician and writer. He is the co-author of "The Beliefnet Guide to Islam," published by Doubleday in 2006. His blog is at drhassaballa.com.
Dear Sachin,
I think this has become an interesting discussion. I have defintely been forced to think a lot as I read through the posts. And I hope I will continue to learn and also correct any presumptions I have or mistakes I may make as I go through the learning process.
Anusheh - very powerful post. Thanks.
Kavita - I don't relate to Hassaballa's article. But then, that's because I do not believe Islam has any redeeming features. I think Wafa Sultan should go for a double whammy and include Christianity in her indictment of religion. She weakens her case massively by only attacking Islam. Christianity is every bit as evil and by not including this fact Wafa Sultan gives her opponents ammo to say that she's only attacking Islam whereas "all religions" have some bad people, etc. The truth is that only Christianity and Islam kill in the name of religion or enforce laws based on religion. It is about time people began making this distinction. Where we're at right now people either insist on not criticising religion at all, or if they do criticize religion, they critcize all religions in the same breath. None of this helps move religion out of its mire or affords any relief to the victims of religion. IMO.
Kavita,
I agree the the upbringing of a child plays an incedible part in the future of "who they are."
If you read the book about the jewish woman who went undercover as a muslim women it was shocking to me....
She watched a dance recital at an Arab school in Chicago seeing young children dance to a song about killing others...it was disgusting and so so sad to me....I couldn't even finish the book!
So I applaud Dr. Sultan in many many ways. I will pray that she andher family stay safe. No one should have to feel that kind of fear...for speaking their true feelings.
joanie
joanie
Kavita
This is not an intellectual debate for me. It comes from a long personal history where I have had to construct and re-construct my being through arduous and painful choices, especially in understanding what is spiritual and how it defines me. So responding to Hasaballa's tirade against Dr. Wafa would drag me into the world of dialectics and that is not where I speak from.
Sachin
With no offense meant. I really don't think this is a matter for off the cuff jokes and lightness. Perhaps that is why you have overlooked my gender and continue to address me as a man.
RKL
Thank you for your expert insight into how my observations are generalisations and your patronising tone towards my life experiences. Since you don't reveal the context of your experiences/insights I'm just going to have to ignore them as the unfortunate play of a bored and self serving intellect.
Divya
I'm not sure Dr. Wafa weakens her case by not including Christianity. While I agree that monotheistic religions have been patrons of wars, violence and manipulation, having thus forfeited any right to spiritual intent or content, Dr. Wafa for me becomes more authentic for she speaks directly as one who has experienced Islam as a Muslim. Taking on a theologians stand on religions per se may contribute hugely to unmasking the polity which hides behind the facade of religions like christianity and islam. But it would weaken the intensity of one who is speaking it as her truth. I saw her video and I was overwhelmed by the honesty of her voice and the intensity of her words. As one who is treading a similar path of searching a self beyond the untruths of religious legacies I know that the fire that burns in her is the kind of fire that can torch many more flames in many more hearts, like in the heart of the twelve year old Kavita mentions. I too was inspired to share what I did, for she connected to a consciousness in which I have always felt so isolated.
Kavita
This is not an intellectual debate for me. It comes from a long personal history where I have had to construct and re-construct my being through arduous and painful choices, especially in understanding what is spiritual and how it defines me. So responding to Hasaballa's tirade against Dr. Wafa would drag me into the world of dialectics and that is not where I speak from.
Sachin
With no offense meant. I really don't think this is a matter for off the cuff jokes and lightness. Perhaps that is why you have overlooked my gender and continue to address me as a man.
RKL
Thank you for your expert insight into how my observations are generalisations and your patronising tone towards my life experiences. Since you don't reveal the context of your experiences/insights I'm just going to have to ignore them as the unfortunate play of a bored and self serving intellect.
Divya
I'm not sure Dr. Wafa weakens her case by not including Christianity. While I agree that monotheistic religions have been patrons of wars, violence and manipulation, having thus forfeited any right to spiritual intent or content, Dr. Wafa for me becomes more authentic for she speaks directly as one who has experienced Islam as a Muslim. Taking on a theologians stand on religions per se may contribute hugely to unmasking the polity which hides behind the facade of religions like christianity and islam. But it would weaken the intensity of one who is speaking it as her truth. I saw her video and I was overwhelmed by the honesty of her voice and the intensity of her words. As one who is treading a similar path of searching a self beyond the untruths of religious legacies I know that the fire that burns in her is the kind of fire that can torch many more flames in many more hearts, like in the heart of the twelve year old Kavita mentions. I too was inspired to share what I did, for she connected to a consciousness in which I have always felt so isolated.
Anusheh,
thank you for your thoughtful post again.
These lines caught my eye in Dr Hassabala's post- "Does she not know that the majority of Muslims around the world reject the violent rhetoric and tactics of the extremist mutants? Does the good doctor not understand that Islam does not condone suicide terrorism, even if said suicide terrorist claims that Islam is his (or her) motivation? Apparently not."
If that is the case why is it that the voices that we hear from time to time are solitary voices like those of Wafa Sultan, or a salman rushdie.
I also wanted to post this here because perhaps it reflects a section of well educated muslims and their opinion, and if they channel it to bring changes it could be the start of a good thing.
and then if most muslims are moderates and believe in peace then why does he say
"Why? Why are some Muslims so threatened by her criticisms of Islam, however misplaced they are, that they are willing to threaten her - a fellow human being, a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister - with death? Certainly God is not threatened by her statements. So, why should we be?
Rather than silence her with the threat of death, why not engage her questions in an open, honest, and forthright debate? What if she has some valid points? Wouldn't the whole ummah be benefited by her insights, if there are any? No, these Muslims refuse to listen to what she has to say and would rather declare her an "infidel" and end the discussion. They are acting like the people of Abraham (pbuh), when they were confronted with the absurdity of their idol worship. Rather than admit that Abraham (pbuh) had a point, they responded by saying: "Burn him and give aid to your gods..." (21:68)."
He hesitates to acknowledge the obvious validity of some of the things she has said with a what if in the beginning of the sentences-to cover his own rear end? I wonder.
I think what I would wish would be for people like Dr Hassabala, who are educated and financially sound, to stand up and inspire others to come forward and stand united and create the change that Dr Wafa hopes for.
I was moved by Dr Wafa's interview because of the passion and honesty with which she spoke, and yes I wish there had been a healthy debate, but will years of history of what is expected and projected be wiped out and a new beginning usher in a kinder ,more loving tomorrow? I doubt it, but atleast this may be a start.
Anusheh, could you also contact me offline kavita@kavitachhibber.com..I'd like to speak to you about a couple of things.
Divya, thanks for your input..I think Anusheh has a great point in that when you speak from experience and knowledge based on what has impacted your life deeply, it makes more of an impact. I feel the same intensity from your posts whether they are about Hinduism or other topics that you choose to write about-I may not agree with some of it, but I have always appreciated that you write straight from the heart and with passion.
Somehow I have always believed that what comes from the heart is seldom frivolous or non impactful.
thank you everyone..I'm moved and enriched in many ways and I know will be thinking about the posts in days to come.
Heeeyyy Kavita....What a way to go!! If someone of Your Potential goes the way you talked above, you can take it in writing from me...you'll hit the top brackets. Yeah..I forgot actually, that it does take courage to get such a post here Kavita. So..you're Bold&Beautiful eh?
Hassaballa(Laughing bat eh?). Humor is taking over me Kavita even in these serious discussions Why?
Yeah...Wonderful! What can I say? I loved the this part the most.
"Rather than silence her with the threat of death, why not engage her questions in an open, honest, and forthright debate? What if she has some valid points? Wouldn't the whole ummah be benefited by her insights, if there are any? No, these Muslims refuse to listen to what she has to say and would rather declare her an "infidel" and end the discussion."
Debate...Muslims? A friend of mine once said "That's an Oxymoron". What Hassaballa says.. they simiply refuse to listen...Infidel Khafir! Chapter closed! Go home, if you don't Fatwa. That's the level at which the minds work for them.
"Here we go again". Spot on! I know that story of history. Aj said that I think Age old nonsense. It's not just age old...it's going to be newage nonsense...becoz that same story will be repeated, Old wine in new bottle!! Just becoz a tiny fraction of human population is Spiritual is not going to prevent that repetition. Who&How it's going to be stopped is a herculean task. I repeat my same point...there have to be innumerable Sultans, Rushdies and of course many Anushehs, not to forget our Dear Laughing bat:)))
Truly..Sachin
Yeah Anusheh I was mislead by this comment of yours in your post...
"And there must be scores of women and possibly some men like me too."
But, I didn't miss the earlier point either where you said three women. Sometimes, we do miss the gender on the blogs becoz of word structure punctuation. Anyway..I'm sorry. You're a woman. It Needs Courage Anusheh!!!! Wow! What a Post!! I cudn't believe my Eyes!!
I didn't understand that point however "Tirade against Sultan by Hassaballa". Unclear.
Anyway...Take care of yourself. You Stunned me but!!
Truly..Sachin
Misled..silly type errors! Got to check.
Anusheh - I agree that everyone needs to proceed in a manner most authentic to themselves. I too was over-awed by the quality of WS's video-clip and watched it 3 times in a row. I would not want to see her lose any of whatever it is she has by intellectualizing her stance rather than coming from the heart.
Nevertheless, Islam was modeled on Christianity. Christianity only relaxed its grip after it had conquered the entire planet (except Asia, but they're getting there). Many of the U.S. foreign policy decisions are based on Christian doctrine. Their interest in the Middle East is not simply about oil. In this sense it is grotesquely hypocritical of the US to be talking of freeing people from the clutches of religous tyranny when they themselves are so caught up in it.
Moreover, one of the biggest reasons that western intellectuals do not challenge Islam is precisely because they would then have to examine their own religion. Doctrinally, it is a load of crap and they know it (the libs do the conservatives are in denial of course). Someone like WS is in a great position to open up this Pandora's Box. Although I agree it would not be worth it to do so at the cost of losing her magic. In any case, someone needs to do it. So far, only philosophers have discussed the scourge that religion is. The debate needs to move into the public arena. Just wishful thinking, I suppose.
Woo... that was a long, long discussion... I have alot to discuss. Sorry, I will not be able to address anyone individually, becoz that will be alot to ask from me... Atleast, I remember your name Kavita:))) See, I have a sence of humor aswell, Sachin. But Sachin, instead of poking fun on others and calling it your sence of humor, why dont you be sensible enuff to know what sence of humor is.
Yes, I am no more mad at you.. Obviously, I understand... This is all you know about Islam... But may I please add, If ever you become a judge, never give your judgement on one side of the story. Always have the courage to listen to the other party too (and this goes for everyone else in here)
Before you criticize Islam try to read and learn about it, not just from talk shows or such but by at least just reading the Quran.
Somewhere up there, you mentioned about suicide bombing.. Very true.. But May I please quote a story about someone I heard about years ago. I saw the interview of a Muslim boy who had suffered thru the Palestine war. He said "Everything and everyone that once mattered to me are no more. Life means nothing to me but to pay back the people who took away everything from me" Do you think, if this boy turned a suicide bomber, Islam taught him to do so. No, it was the circumstances. so why blame Islam for his actions? why not blame the people who led him to do so.
My dear Kavita... what Dr Sultan has done is questions beliefs. putting a garb of religion does not make all other beliefs sacred.
sati is a common practice in Hindu society and the world is living with countless other social evils.. Is it all about Islam?
May I also add here that all these evils are not becoz of a certain religious sect, but the education level. The less awareness and education you have, the more evil you go.
Anusheh, I choose to be a muslim by choice and not by force. I can honestly say it is a very peaceful religion, defends women's rights and prohibits terrorizing people. It also teaches to accept people of different faiths and to treat them as any other.
It is true that Islam's image is very bad right now but that is due to the fact there are extremists who misinterpret the teachings of Islam.
I would also like to point out that there are extremists in every walk of life not just Muslims.
In response to Dr Wafa Sultan's remark that Jews aren't blowing up German restaurants I agree with that, but isn't their occupation of Palestine and the deaths ,that have been going on for years but are now "forgotten" because the media's attention is drawn away, an act of terrorism?
And yeah Divya, or whoever pointed that out up there... I am not alone. I have my God with me so you need not stop at this point... Ask what you have to:))
this is courage in the wrong place for the wrong reasons. I have studied the text of islam and i know what i'm talking about. most of what she said is invalid. her quotes from the quran or the prophet's [Mohammad's] tradition are not correct. she's twisting the truth to catch some attention. We have inflected way more pain on Arabs and Muslims and against all that were different. Think of the wars of the crusades, the wars in spain in the middle ages, the two gulf wars, the war in afghanistan, etc. And also remember that radical islam was our dearest friend when the USSR was in power. it's mere politics. And also never forget that most mumlim behavior is not a reflection of what true islam is. if you wanna learn the truth about this religion, or if you care about the truth, go read it in the books. pick up the translations [hard copies] for the koran and Mohammed's traditions and read things in context. this woman is a liar.
I just watched a 7 minute clip of wafa sultan "debating" with a professor from Algeria, and I must confess that I was disappointed by wafa sultan. I understood her position re: the teaching of extremist/fundamentalist islam and the hatred it encourages, and I don't disagree; but her lack of understanding re: history was astonding - and it greatly diminished her credibility.
For instance, she'd made a comment about america representing a hope/idealism/optimism for its inhabitiants, and the algerian professor asked her about this hopeful, optimisitic society, as it related to native americans. Her response was that Christopher Columbus discovered america in 1492, and the country was formally founded in 1776 - and this was proof positive that america as a nation didn't have anything to do with the destruction of the american indians (she seemed to suggest that they dies off during the nearly 300 years after Columbus discovered america, but before the nation was established). Anyone who knows history knows that this is plainly wrong. Columbus discovered america - but he was primarily in the west indies and central america. As for the indians, they were driven out/wiped out as more while/european settlers immigrated to america, and moved further and further west.
In this very article, she alluded to jews having never acted as terrists - and this is simply not true. When Palestine was a united nations sactioned, british contolled territory, the jewish settlers engaged in a campaign of terror not unlike what the insurgents are doing to us/allied forces in iraq. In fact, it was this campaign of terror that ultimately forced the UN to establish isreal as a state.
Now, that said, I understand her point that america has proven to be a place of refuge for her, and I'm glad for her - but it doesn't change the fact that we in this country live as well as we do largely because of our exploitation of other people (lopsided trade agreements, robbing them of their natural resources, et al).
Sadia..didn't you read my post to Kavita..where I said I cud write tonnes on the bright side of it. You'll be Stunned to know I'm a Sufi by core. It's an Offshoot of Islam. Some say it is actual Islam some say it is Crap.
Sadia...this is my field. I'm deep into all this....but it's Good that you came in to have a discussion...I thought you were preparing a Fatwa or just ran away to some Holy Islamic website. As you yourself have mentioned Islam rt now has a bad name. Good to see you catching and acknowledging that point.
But I wonder why you said "Atrocity" to my Dear friend Kavita? This site is not for Bigoteds or Dogmatics...it's a damn Open site....these are the rules of this site. Play the game by these rules or find another playfield.
Islam Defends Womens Rights? I'll hand over this to Divya. She's a very good ripper of hypocrisy.
Truly..Sachin
Sachin,
By atrocity, I meant the way she has hurt my sentiments by criticising my religion.
Diviya is most welcome to discuss the women rights I have mentioned.. but I again would like to comment... dont you dare call it hypocricy
Sadia,
Why do we need religion?
Why the Left doesn't blame Muslims for Muslim violence
Feb 28, 2006
by Dennis Prager
There's a certain consistent pattern regarding the worldwide Left's assessment of culpability for Muslim terror. It is the fault of the murdered.
The most recent example is the blaming of Denmark, or at least the Danish newspaper, for publishing cartoons of Muhammad. From Kofi Annan to The New York Times -- and the other American newspapers that declared respect for religious symbols a new journalistic virtue -- liberal and leftist opinion always condemns violent Muslim demonstrations, but always with a "but." The "but" is that in the final analysis, it was the Danish and other European papers' faults for insulting the Muslim prophet.
This is only the latest example of finding the victims of Islamic violence responsible for that violence.
For a decade or more, it has been a given on the Left that Israel is to blame for terror committed against Israelis by Palestinian Muslims (Palestinian Christians don't engage in suicide terror). What else are the Palestinians supposed to do? If they had Apache helicopters, the argument goes, they would use them. But they don't, so they use the poor man's nuclear weapon -- suicide terror.
The same argument is given to explain 9-11. Three thousand innocent Americans were incinerated by Islamic terrorists because America has been meddling in the Middle East so long. This was bound to happen. And, anyway, don't we support Israel?
And when Muslim terrorists blew up Madrid trains, killing 191 people and injuring 1,500 others, the Left in Spain and elsewhere blamed Spanish foreign policy. After all, the Spanish government had sent troops into Iraq.
When largely Muslim rioters burned and looted for a month in France, who was blamed? France, of course -- France doesn't know how to assimilate immigrants, and, as the BBC reported on Nov. 5, 2005, "[Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy's much-quoted description of urban vandals as 'rabble' a few days before the riots began is said by many to have already created tension." Calling rabble "rabble" causes them to act like to rabble.
If you wish to test the thesis that the Left blames those blown up for being blown up by Muslim terrorists, have your son or daughter at college ask some liberal arts professors who is to blame for 9-11 or Muslim suicide bombers in Israel, etc.
In fact, one way to describe the moral divide between conservatives and liberals is whom they blame for acts of evil committed against innocent people, especially when committed by non-whites and non-Westerners. Conservatives blame the perpetrators, and liberals blame either the victims' group or the circumstances.
We Americans are used to this. For decades, liberals have blamed violent crime in America on racism and poverty, i.e., on American society far more than on the murderers, rapists, arsonists and muggers themselves. Conservatives blame the criminals.
During the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, black mobs murdered innocent Korean shopkeepers and burned sections of the city. The liberal response in America was virtually universal: We must understand the anger of these people at American racism. The daily special section on the riots in the major local newspaper, the Los Angeles Times, was titled, "Understanding the Rage."
Though Thomas Friedman, the New York Times foreign affairs correspondent, has been among the few prominent liberals to support the Iraq War, he regularly blames Islamic terror on unemployment in the Arab world.
Since examples of liberals refusing to blame criminals and terrorists for their behavior are legion, let's try to figure out why this moral inversion is so common.
Here are three hypotheses:
One is that liberals tend to blame outside forces for evil. This emanates from the secular humanistic view of people as basically good -- and therefore human evil must come not from the bad choices and bad values of the evildoer, but from the unfortunate socioeconomic and other circumstances of the person's life.
The second explanation is that as you go further left on the political spectrum, it becomes increasingly difficult to blame the "weak" for any atrocities they commit. The Left does not divide the world between good and evil nearly as much as it does between rich and poor, and between strong and weak. Israel is stronger and richer, so Palestinian terror is excused. White America is stronger and richer than black America, so black violence is excused. The West is stronger and richer than the Muslim world, so Muslim violence is explained accordingly.
And third, liberals tend to be afraid of the truly evil. That's why the liberal newspapers of America refused to publish the Danish cartoons, probably the most newsworthy cartoons ever drawn, but have never had any hesitance about showing cartoons and photos that mock Jewish and Christian symbols. Christians and Jews don't kill editors.
We don't know who will be the next target of Islamic or other murderers from poor or non-Western or non-white groups. All we can know is that liberal and leftist thought will find reasons to hold the targeted group largely responsible.
Sachin, I have to agree with Anusheh and Sadia here. Your jokes are offensive in this context. Of course, much of what I say is offensive too. But since this is a forum to express one’s opinion, there you have it.
Sadia – If sentiments are all you can appeal to, you’re out of luck as far as I am concerned. These matters are way too important to allow anyone to hide behind the sentiments bogey. You’ve certainly got a nice long free ride on that one in India, haven’t you.
In case you haven’t noticed, sati is not practiced in India any more. Every ten twenty years or so, you hear of one case that crops up. This is less than the instances of cannibalism in Europe or the United States, just to give you a frame of reference. Nobody goes around saying that Europe is a society of cannibals. Besides, sati is officially banned. Hindus have no problem revising or challenging their sources of scriptural authority. Muslims do. The Koran is believed to be the final and unalterable word of God and Mohammed is his final prophet. This gives Islam the static character which we are confronted with today. You can have your head chopped off for trying to alter the Koran. This is why Wafa Sultan's life is in peril - because she has challenged the word of God.
You claim that Islam is about peace. On the contrary, it is full of hatred for the Other. There are innumerable verses in the Koran to prove this. Here is one of the most infamous ones: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)" So you see where their doctrine of slaughter or convert comes from. This is still practiced.
Islamic apologists contend that these verses are taken out of context and that Mohammad was actually involved in sectarian conflicts at the time. But based on verses such as the above, Muslims have plundered and slaughtered Hindus for over a thousand years. All of these facts are very proudly and carefully recorded by contemporary Muslim historians. The Hindu Kush mountains literally tranlates as mountains of the “Slaughter of the Hindus”. To me, it’s clear that you’re the one who needs to do some serious research into the religion you are defending. In the entire history of Islam there are two common themes of Islamic conquest: slaughter and plunder. You might say that this is common enough in warfare, but the Muslims did it in the name of religion, without shame, and their massacres tended to be indiscriminate, 30,000 in one day, including women and children, the old and the infirm. Again, all very proudly recorded by Muslims and the material available in Muslim archives. Even more to the point, most Muslims have yet to repudiate these dark chapters in their history, as the Christians have repudiated theirs.
As for the status of women in Islam – this is so laughable it is not even worth responding.
Umer - Your impressions are probably valid. Any critique of Islam falls flat without also including a critique of Christianity. But a defense of Christianity is an outright blunder on the part of WS. Perhaps she’s caught in the “sensitivity” trap and doesn’t feel comfortable criticizing others’ religion.
AJ,
I can go on and on to reason why we need religion... Before that I would like you to go thru the following links:
http://thewaytotruth.org/religionandman/necessityofreligion.html
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=327&sscatid=391
And in case you think I am just mentioning Islamic sites, Here goes something from Christianity:
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2003/08/26/171558.php
Coming back to your question... It is quite a thought provoking question:
Why do we need parents, when there are people who are orphan?
Why do we need a house, when people survive on roads too?
Why do women continue living after their husband's death when they can be a sati?
If you have the courage to ask... then there is loads unanswered... But you donot necessarily have to answer all that. Religion gives an answer to questions... It tells the difference between right and wrong. Here we are talking about religion and not Islam particularly. No religion teaches the immorality... Every religion teaches the right and moral things. I tend to believe in what I said, becoz I tend to believe in the basic goodness of humanity and becoz I believe that God lives between the space that individuals leave inbetween each other.
Lots of Love to everyone up there, especially Kavita, Sachin and Diviya, from:
Barrister Sadia Haashmi aka Sado
Ok no more Fatwas from me now:)))
A Human Tragegy!
Closed-mindedness is a truly human tragedy, an illness! It is the epitome of ignorance! Seriously! To zealously employ violence in defence of your religion (to maintain status quo) is completely abhorrent, sickening. Such fools are plain sick! What religion, may I ask, do most suicide bombers practise? Isn't it time to abandon religion and rethink all things anew!
Emerge from the dark ages, people, use your mind, your brain; liberate yourselves from the ugly claws of religion. Grow up! Be an independent thinker. Be an an adult! Do not let this insiduous institution of religion do the thinking for you! The discovery of truth shall set you free!
Divya, you a bang on! Kavita, great blog! David, well said!
Peace~!
Thank you every one for the informative posts.
Sadia, thanks for saying you are not mad at me and also for remembering my name:)
Let me firstly say that no where have I criticized your religion. What I did was to simply put forth the question of a child and Dr Wafa Sultan’s interview. Before I focus on the posts let me add that my brother a Hindu Brahmin is an Islamic scholar-he has written several books and two of his best sellers are the 100 names of Allah, and his English translation and interpretation of the hanuman chalisa. The hundred names of Allah has received rave reviews everywhere including the dawn newspaper in Pakistan. He is an IAS officer in india..and guess what is his name..Parvez. So I come from a pretty liberal and secular family.
You mentioned about Islam having a bad name these days, and if it is because of the mindset of only a handful of people then why has it not been nipped in the bud just like the practice of sati was many years ago? If Islam is indeed a peaceful religion why does it give the impression to the contrary? If we talk of underprivileged people who became terrorists, then we have to look at the fact that not all of the Islamic nations are poor-in fact Dr Jagdish Sheth a world famous marketing guru whose latest book I just reviewed and who did a very provocative interview on my website, has made the prediction that in a few years the Islamic nations will become a trade bloc by themselves because they have the man power and money to do so. If the state of Israel and a Jewish community that makes a fraction of the earth’s population can stand up for its own and empower their own why hasn’t say Palestine been offered the same support?
I actually asked that question in the streets of Jerusalem of a Palestinian street vendor last November when I visited the country. Only in a democracy could he stand there and get a picture taken and lash out openly against Israel and the Jewish community and not have a fatwa on his head as we stood there talking and his frustrations were unleashed in a 40 minute verbal diarrhea.
He however said to me that he hates the Palestinian government equally-that Hamas does more for the people and it would come to power. When I asked the scholars of Palestinian origin why weren’t they receiving help from their richer brethren, they had the grace to look embarrassed and say that initially money came but was pilfered away by Arafat’s men.
I don’t see the poor man on the streets of India becoming a suicide bomber..and India is a horribly poor nation even today in large chunks-how many acts of terrorism have you seen there that were not linked to a Muslim terrorist group?
The saddest thing in the Kashmir conflict is not only have the kashmiris paid a heavy price for it, but a lot of them have been Muslims as well. Hatred begets hatred. If it is not religion then why do the terrorist groups always dedicate it in the name of their God.
You said “My dear Kavita... what Dr Sultan has done is questions beliefs… putting a garb of religion does not make all other beliefs sacred.” Well, Dr Sultan happens to be questioning certain beliefs attributed to her religion. If these were erroneous assumptions on her part, I wish one of the esteemed scholars pitted against her had corrected her instead of saying-there is no point discussing anything with you because you have blasphemed against Islam etc..
You are right that it happens largely due to lack of education or may I add due to the education being imparted in the madrasas from childhood. It happens when we get mad and take things personally, instead of sitting down and educating each other-it also happens when we are too afraid to speak up against the elements that are working against any religion to use it as a divisive and destructive force. It happens when people are not willing to engage a wafa sultan in a healthy dialogue and show facts and statistics to prove her wrong, when it comes to her interpretation of Islam.
Our circumstances, personal experiences and environment make us who we are, but just because our past has violence in it, should we create a future out of it, and is the Muslim community so weak that they can’t stand up and put a stop to it? The money that is sent to the terrorist organizations of any kind and filtered into a bank account of a suicide bomber, comes from the coffers of the rich. Why can’t that money be used for education?
Growing up, surrounded by the love of my Muslim neighbors, having a best friend who is Muslim and seeing what they have to face because of their last name and religion, and to look at a 12 year child and hesitate as I fumble to say its not the religion perhaps and have stats rattled off before me, angers and frustrates me. I wish I could go back to those idyllic days when the temple bells rang in harmony with the chants of allah-hu akbar as I woke up to get ready for school, choosing to eat breakfast at my Muslim neighbor’s house and being more pampered than their own daughters, but my world and the world of many has turned upside down when faced with the dark side of terrorism and hatred, and all coming from one source..a supposedly divine source at that. When all paths lead to the same God-why can’t the path be one filled with peace and harmony?
Great article, Steve. Refutes every point I've ever made on this blog and I'll be the first to admit it. But what do you make of "moderate" Muslims like Dr. Sultan? Are they "evil"? I'd say they're just being dragged along for the ride?
I personally believe that evil is a very subjective thing.
I also feel (sorry Sadia) that the Koran is essentiallly an intollerant religion. I have tried my hardest not to believe this, by searching for translations of the Koran to find the truth and, sadly, I haven't found any evidence to refute it.
Anyways, I gave up my affiliation to any one religion long ago and filled my life with other meaningful things to make up for this void.
In my opinion, religion is for those with true faith in a particular interpretation of God, for those who succumb to societal pressures (or have no choice...oppressed women in purdah, for example), and for those who are true politicians, disguising themselves as holy men.
Anyways. Thanks for reading my rambling, everyone.
K.
"......your patronising tone towards my life experiences. Since you don't reveal the context of your experiences/insights I'm just going to have to ignore them as the unfortunate play of a bored and self serving intellect." - There is no attempt to patronising anybody or even arguing with. Based on your experience, you tried to define what is meant to be muslims and what is being invoked when one remembers Prophet (PBUH). I said it is different for me. Surely, you may not want to speak for me too.
"Since you don't reveal the context of your experiences/insights ....." - The context is me, my life, how i learned it, how I experience it.
"I'm just going to have to ignore them...." - You could well ignore this post too.
".....as the unfortunate play of a bored and self serving intellect." - This is condescending, and making judgement about a person, whom one does not know beyong the limits of a comment .
Responding to Sadia, Kavita states:
"You said “My dear Kavita... what Dr Sultan has done is questions beliefs… putting a garb of religion does not make all other beliefs sacred.” Well, Dr Sultan happens to be questioning certain beliefs attributed to her religion. If these were erroneous assumptions on her part, I wish one of the esteemed scholars pitted against her had corrected her instead of saying-there is no point discussing anything with you because you have blasphemed against Islam etc."
"When all paths lead to the same God-why can’t the path be one filled with peace and harmony?"
Well stated, Kavita.
AJ,
You asked why do we need religion, here is one reason, pay particular attention to the last paragraph:
SUNDAY, March 19 (HealthDay News) -- More than a third of adults say they are lonely, especially people in their 40s, a new study shows.
U.K. and Australian researchers conducted 30-minute phone interviews with 1,289 adults in the state of Central Queensland, in Australia.
They found that 35 percent of the respondents said they were lonely. People aged 50 and older had the lowest levels of loneliness. Levels of loneliness began to rise at age 20 and peaked between the ages of 40 and 49.
People with strong religious beliefs were less likely to be lonely than people who had no such beliefs. Women were more likely to have strong religious beliefs, which may explain why women reported lower levels of loneliness than men, the researchers said.
I just approved Sadia Haashmi's comment above (posted March 19th at 12:49pm) . There are some interesting links in the post.
Mallika
I'm not sure if Dr Sultan is revolutionary in her thinking. I have many muslim friends in both the UK and in India, who have increasingly felt a sense of suspicion and hatred towards their beliefs and religion. What exactly is Dr Sultan asking:- 'Why young men turn to suicide bombing in the name of religion?'. So, well, lets ask the same questions of the other so called terrorists, who classify themselves as Freedom Fighters.
What I have always found quite bizarre about the whole situation today, whether you want to address it as the haves v the have nots, the Christian v the muslims, amercian foreign policy v middle east politics, or Bin Laden v the USA.
The point is that many of the extremists live in the western world and seem to be mobilising the young muslim men and women to attack the very society which has given them livelihood, security etc etc. I'm thinking specifically of the men who were responsible for the London bombings. One man was born and brought up in the UK and had married an english girl who converted to the muslim faith. The young man was a primary shcool teacher. In line with Dr Sultan's comments; yes, why would this man be driven to go to Pakistan, train in a masdera and then go back to the UK and kill innocent people in the name of Islam?
The bombings were celebrated by some hardliners in the UK. One in particular who is a notorious fundamentalist (and has lived in the UK for 30 years), basically said that the reasoning behind the bombings was the fact the Britain supported the US in Iraq. Most of the British population were/are against the war in Iraq, however, you don't kill innocent people because you disagree with a country's foreign policy, in which you live. I wonder if these fundamentalists would be just as comfortable sitting in Kabul?
I think the correlation with the Jewish struggle is justified in one sense, but lets be honest the Palestinians have suffered too much at the hands of Israel, in the Jewish attempt to maintain their own sense of freedom.
I think the questions asked should be who exactly is a freedom fighter, and who is a terrorist?. There is a fine line. The origins of the suicide bombings go back to the 70s in Iran, when a young man ran into the front line, in the war against Iran and Iraq. As a result the Iranians were able to defeat the Iraqis in that particular war zone. The young boy was 14 (I don't remember his name) and was delcared a martyr.
Religion and politics go hand in hand. The first thing you do when you want to dominate or rule a society is to essentially indoctrinate and take away the belief system that the society is fundamentally based on.
To much empahsis is placed on the wording of the Koran and not enough emphasis on the issue itself-as to why and how this one particular man has been able to wage a war against the 'infidel'-and mobilise so many to sacrifice their lives in the struggle. If you listen to many of the fundamentalists, the answer for them is simple. Free our brothers and sisters from the Infidel's clutches and stop killing innocent muslim men women and children.
I think it was Madeline Albright who made a famous statement that bascially said, the death of 1 million Iraqi children was the price you paid for sanctions against Iraq. You ask a mother or a father or a son or brother or sister whether they see their fellow suicide bombers as heroes or traitors of the islamic faith?
Unfortunately, for me, this was put up during the week end. It has however an impressive post with some tremendous posts. I had read Dr. Sultan's interview earlier a few days ago and was most impressed with it. However, I am now even more impressed with Anusheh's comments here.
Having just gone through the whole post I am simply too saturated and I think generally most of what I could say has probably already been mentioned here by others. However, the one think that strikes me is that I have seen, specially in the last few weeks, the beginning of a purposeful dialogue being initiated and that has to be a good sign. For far too long has the silent Muslim majority avoided open debate, to their own disadvantage. I hope this continues.
Am most impressed with how this discussion has evolved towards becoming an enlightened debate for all of us - thank you all.
I was Almost going to Issue a Fatwa again for all those Blasphemous:)) Sorry, I can't keep the humor not going.
Especially to you Kavita...no more discussion for you, becoz you've Blasphemed like Wafa Begum. Oh God!:))) Did you watch an old movie titled "Gods must be Crazy"? that thought often runs thru' my mind when I see the world.
Coming back to a Serious vein....I just think Sadia and Anusheh are very sensitive loving and reasonably open people! Anusheh was awesome! an Example to be Emulated really!!! Whoever talks of peace, harmony, love sincerely in the heart...cannot be a Crooked case I think, no matter what culture, religion one comes from.
Like Sadia....I cud talk for hrs on the Benefits of Religion...it does have, don't be shocked...but Unfortunately there's a Far darker side which has troubled humanity for long and will for long. Period. No Deepak chopra, No wayne Dyer, No Dalai lama No Swami Satchitananda Can stop that age old deep rooted nonsense. They can talk and make attempts.
Facets! Facets! Life doesn't come in two shades Black and White. If it is not White then it has got to be Black!! It doesn't work that way. There's always a mix!
God Bless!
Truly..Sachin
When people do something good the props go to their identity as a person but when they do something bad it is the fault of the religion they stand for?
Mohammad was not and is not a Muslim
"Christ/Jesus" was not and is not a Christian
Promoting hatred in all its forms maybe paying but not for long...
Thank You Dara, Sachin, Ruth,Divya and kavita for your warm words.
Indeed Rita
Muhammed was not a muslim and neither was Jesus a Christian. This fundamental fact unfortunately escapes all who bear allegiance to a religion of birth. As Deepak Ji said aptly in his recent post, "The future of God, however, lies in spiritual evolution, and the next step of growth is for people to start to awaken one by one, just as Jesus, Gautama, and Muhammad did."
And unfortunately most religions desist from opening the frontiers of personal evolution, bearing down on you to prostrate before a messiah endlessly, keeping your self-perception servile if you will before those who were 'chosen by God'. And Islam carries that to an art form by bearing a sword down on you should you even 'think' of treading down another road.
RKL
Apologies for sounding condescending for that was/is not my intent. I feel your comments were merely opinions and hence not open to discussion. Fair enough but when you call me 'angry' all I can say is that my anger if you will comes from my direct experience of life as a muslim. I do not wish to drag in Bush, Jews, the birth of Islam or Sati etc as reasons to question a truth which for me is as close as breathing life. For me the question is neither for nor against but purely about truth.
I often find that as soon as a question of violence and Islam is raised someone will begin to ask you to read the Koran or 'understand' it. As one who has done both I still find it an irrelevant point.
As Mark Bohn chooses to question Dr Wafa on her 'interpretation' of the Koran. Here is what I have to say. If a school is regularly producing a majority of students who are addicts, violent, and failures does it move us any if the authorities say we should come 'check out the excellent teachers,the shining curriculum' and the fantastic text books they have? Not really, the students are the overriding truth.
Many here say that religion is a personal matter. Well if so personal then how does one tolerate the untruths of something which is so personal. Something is amiss don't you think?
For instance reading a holy text in an alien language (arabic), rattling off prayer in that same alien language 5 times a day is a definition of good, virtuous and spiritual. Being treated as a lessor mortal because of my gender at so many levels because of that same alien text is virtuous. Looking upon others who practice life/prayer differently as intrinsically 'flawed' and justifying 'murder' in the name of a holy war is all virtuous. Why?Because of a man called a prophet, unlettered, who never recorded his own words, leaves behind a text(recorded by who knows whom) from a time which confounds even my racial memory!!!!
What does one do with one's intelligence and scientific thinking is my question. Bury it in the rubble of a word called blasphemy?
And speaking of racial memory Sadia here's a question for you. If you are from India then chances are that your ancestors like mine were converted to Islam by the sword some hundreds of years ago. What about our ancestors before that? Maybe they were dalits or God forbid Brahmins, pagans who had different Gods and ways. Now how do we decide whose religion is ours. Since this is all about birth and race which memory should decide our spiritual allegiance?
No Sadia religion does not teach us about good and virtue. Our heart does that for us if we leave it free from the meddlesome politics of our mind. Many, many really 'good' people exist outside the pens of religion and access a deeper truth within to find the meaning of 'humane and virtue'. Religion is an opium of rituals, pens and safe corridors where our fears and paranoia proliferate, seemingly protected by a 'God.'
Just want to add that my words are not intended to attack/hurt anyone's feelings. I speak only as one who has stood in the midst of her own confusions, often lacked courage and clarity and also functioned with fear and defensiveness. So i am not here to judge. But having walked an extraordinary road to discovering a Self which is free and beyond religious incarceration, I hope my words emit the relief, hope and joy of discovering that Truth lies within, truly frees, embraces and uplifts the soul.
love
Kavita...I was seriously reading your post. Beautiful!! That's the way you discuss and debate. Good on you!!! Had been a while since I read that typical heartfelt post of yours.
I was just wondering though Is this Parvez same as Sunny you talked before? Your family always fascinated me!!
Thanks for the answer in advance..Sachin
Anusheh...You got to Stay here Woman!!!! You found a very good site for yourself and We've found AN AMAZING WOMAN!!!!!!!! On our Spiritual path...We Adore Women! I for sure!!
On behalf of Intent and other liberated open minded people...Here's Red Carpet Welcome to you Anusheh Hussain Saheba!!!!
Aayiye Hamare Mehfil mein aayiye aur Rang Jamaiye. You'll BE ADORED HERE!!!! But just be a little careful of those fatwas from the other camp. No kidding this time...it can happen. I know the dynamics. Just be a little aware of that, but otherwise...It'll be great to have you here...Well actually I may not be here, but others will simply love you! Take my word.
May the Divine within you Bless you!!
Peace&Love..Sachin
Thank you very much every one for your thought provoking posts again. Sadia I will check out the links, in between what is going to be an overfull working day. Kamini, Steve and Anusheh, your posts stood out again in the many aspects they covered.
I feel one's religion is very important to one's well being-it gives you faith and hope in the days when you have no faith and hope, both integral to life.
Kamini, I quite agree that its our circumstances as I said earlier that often make us who we are-at the same time, there is always that little voice inside us that tells us what is right, and it is often suppressed when we do somehting that isnt right, or healthy for us just because we want something badly, or are afraid..I had just put the today show on, in the middle of a report on some police shooting with some innocent bystanders..a woman said.."I was hoping more people would protest this action, but people are afraid-they dont want to get involved"-that is perhaps the key word-people dont want to get involved. I think unless something affects us personally, we dont stick our necks out.
Your line about there being a fine line between terrorists and freedom fighters is very key. It takes superhuman abilities to remain forgiving and kind when your child or an entire family in the case of the Palestinian man Sadia mentioned, gets wiped out.
At the same time when I look at the rules and regulations laid down by society and the holy books, written by as Anusheh says god knows who, I tell myself and my friends who have gone against the so called traditions and done things, that these traditions were created by men and women as imperfect as ourselves-do what feels right for you as long as you dont destroy someone else in the process.
There has to be discipline and guidelines, but not if its affecting people to the extent that it destroys families or has become invalid because the world has changed. Another child once said to me -I think Bush is the biggest terrorist on earth and so is the America he represents..and that sentence got me thinking too-I think child is truly the father of man-and the thinking of children is often uncomplicated by fear and other complexities.
This has been a very enlightening discussion for me and I hope we can have many more such discussions-not only does it forces us to think, I'm learning so much thanks to so many diverse voices.
Sachin, sunny is another brother-his real name is Sunjay
Finally I must mention what Gandhi said-Be the change you wish to see in the world.
Lots of love
Sadia writes:
"Religion gives an answer to questions... It tells the difference between right and wrong."
But do we need religion to tell us this? Do we need the government to tell us this? Are we not intelligent enough to figure this out for ourselves?
Religion is an insiduous anachronistic institution whose time has long come and gone, whole role in society is now superfluous and irrelevant.
We pander to it primarily because of an accident of birth, because we were thrust into it, we didn't have a choice then, it was just the way it was. But now, as 'enlightened' adults, we do have a choice, we can disrobe ourselves from it, we can discard it, we can liberate our minds.
Religion is really the bane of our civilization. As Vladimir Lenin said: "Religion is the opium of the people." It provides a false sense of security and a false sense of hope!
If this does not bother you, then, by all means,
have your religion, provided that you do not impose it and your will on others, provided that you do respect the sanctity of human life and freedoms everywhere.
Kamini - You completely missed the import of Wafa Sultan's video-clip. This woman has dared to take on the Establishment. So what if your muslim friends whisper among themselves about how disillusioned they are with Islam. Have they taken a public stance? It’s a world of a difference. Please do not belittle Wafa Sultan's courage.
The Freedom-Fighter vs. Terrorist issue is a total cop-out. Of course there's a point in there somewhere. That doesn't mean you can indiscriminately apply it to all situations. It certainly does not explain why Sunnis are busy killing Shias in Iraq. It most definitely does not apply to Kashmir. Maybe the Irish had a point. Palestine? Sorry. I don’t agree with you there. That area was a dry worthless desert. It was the Jews who nurtured it, and made it into a prosperous state. I am utterly convinced it is Islam that is keeping the Palestinians in their wretched state of misery and it has very little to do with Israel. In any case, as Kavita pointed out, why do the enormously wealthy oil states near Palestine not help them. Do you know that the biggest donors to Palestine are the Scandinavian nations and Europe in general. What happens to your freedom fighter theory here? Why are Europeans getting suicide-bombed?
Thanks for the fairy-tale about the origins of suicide bombing, but it would be more informative for the rest of us if you checked your facts. What were the Kamikaze pilots if not suicide bombers? That's just what I can think of off hand. Who knows how far back this concept goes. I'm sorry, your entire post is so full of holes that I just had to say something.
Imposing will cuts both ways AJ
Steve
Not related to the question raised here but still wanted to post this after reading the responses here -
What is it about religion that makes it a passionate , hot button issue which can divide/unite a larger group of people, much more than any other social concern.
Human rights groups, environmentalists ..( you can add your pick here) can scream till they are blue in their face about something, but they will get minimal attention when compared to an event which has religious overtones. ??
Is it because most people belong to a religion and have a strong urge to protect which is their's ??
Ambasteve:
"Imposing will cuts both ways AJ."
Steve, if, by asking people to have an open mind with respect to the truth, is considered a twoedged sword, as you are implying above, you are wrong, friend!
The only way for mankind to move out of the dark ages, to advance, to embrace reality, is to have an open mind. Humans have always defended the status quo (sometimes to the death) by anathemathizing, criticizing and ostracizing those who dared to take a stand, who dared to speak out against comfort zones.
Your meek attempt at this above is not surprising. In fact, it is to be expected.
Asking humans to view the matters of the universe with an open mind, is not cutting it both ways. It is a reasonable expectation!
Well if you are asking to have an open mind that's fine, just please one request, no more Lenin quotes :) I understand your point, however, to hear it from my Russian girlfriend who left the former Soviet Union in 1996, it aint no open society.
Steve
Thanks AJ, Divya, Steve and Namita.
Divya as always you've made some key points. AJ and Namita, I think if I was to speak from a personal perspective I grew up deeply influenced by my maternal grandmother who taught me the rituals of Hindu religion-in fact funnily I'm more ritualistic than my mom or dad-They believe in the theory of Karma-do good and make that your religion. I strive to do that but I also just have to get up, take a shower, light my diya and chant my mantras and chalisas before starting my day. I feel empowered and ready to face the world, and my day seems brighter.
All the good things grand ma taught me were based on stories from our epics-though I would question her incessantly why Rama gave up on Sita because of gossip and she would say the deeper message was of sacrificing your most precious and personal possessions for the general good, and God showed that by taking on a human form.(hmm I'm still not convinced!).
So I attributed everything that was noble and good to the hindu philosophy and believed that the virtues we are supposed to possess and value are somehow interlinked deeply to our religion. I learnt as I grew older that things were a lot more complicated than that- just that because we made it so.
I therefore imbibed what worked for me and ignored what didnt. But in my darkest hours when I'm sad or need help, I turn to my version of God ..strangely the days I pray with conviction, the answers come quickly and so does help.
Maybe that is why we cling to our own individual versions of religion.
Many atheists may turn to another human being or mentor or even look within themselves for answers.
Sometimes you need that just to get through each day-even for a terrorist.
whether it brings hope or hopelessness in its wake-you simply cannot undermine the power of religion- and that is why many have exploited it to destroy and plunder and others to bring succor..
Aj I wish we could remove everything that causes dissent and hatred among people-religion is only one of the weapons of mass destruction when used unwisely-there are many others. And they are all in the hands of mankind.
Thanks Kavita for publishing this. It is outstanding. It reminds me of the Arabs who have been targeted with death threats for wanting to do business with the United States. I hope that there are people of all faiths that are willing to stand up to the noxious fractions of all the the religions and follow suit.
Again, thank you.
Very Good Read Kavita!! It was almost you had written on my behalf of why religion is imp while reading your post. Each one has his/her own connection with God...which is of Immense help in terms of crisis.
You didn't know why Ram left Sita (transiently) becoz she was acting smart!:)) I'm getting these Spontaneous answers the moment I read a line. Just being Jovial Kavita...I know you're a sport and do understand.
I'm being reminded of Old Kavita of late... the way again you're writing from the heart. So damn well anchored in your chest! That's just a Gift! Not everyone is blessed to have the heart so well placed and anchored, your Heart chakra is Awesome. It gets reflected so well in your writings. Hope all this doesn't get into your ego, it's just meant to foster the beauty I see...that's all, nothing more nothing less.
Take Care..Sachin
PS: Also don't be fearful of others opinions. Remember this golden saying as a contributor: "You can't keep everyone happy all the time"...if you choose that track, you'll only waste lot of time&energy.
Dear Kavita,
Great blog. I used to participate in a muslim website until recently, but was kicked out by the moderators because of my comments. I have always spoken with respect and raised questions about Muhammad's life and Quoran in a respectful manner. But that didn't stop the moderators from banning me from the website. There were many others who were outright offensive, on both sides, but they still continue to participate there.
The reason I bring it up is because I believe there is a serious lack of dialog amongst Muslims about Quoran. If there is any dialog, it is mainly to say how good it is and how timeless it is etc. They always find long winded explanations for every ill that is illustrated by Muhammad's life or documented in Quoran and Hadith. Even the most enlightened muslims are very reluctant to openly discuss the not-so benign verses in the Quoran. I am really heartened by Anusheh's posts here, not so much because she denigrates Quoran in anyway, but she has demonstrated her willingness to question it openly and take a stand.
This lack of openness is what is causing the moral and spiritual degradation of muslims world over. To add insult to this injury, the Islamic intellectuals have taken the head-firmly-buried-in-the-sand approach and that is damaging muslims furhter. It is not enough to practice good things said in Quoran. You must also take care of the weeds that grow amongst you, just as other societies do, even though they quote Quoran as justification for their heinuous acts. I hope the so called clash of civilizations will bring out more openness among all the people of the world and consider all the holy books for what they are: books that were relevant to some peoples and some times but not always and not for everybody.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Ravi - ha, ha, I've been kicked out of *Hindu *(Indian) websites for my comments on Islam!
Kavita - my view of the Ram/Sita affair (at this point in my life) is that since human beings are essentially fallible creatures, any decision you take is going to have a mix of right and wrong in it. So it's pointless looking at it in terms of absolute right or absolute wrong. I've always been for Sita and love that she ditched rama, but the rama side of the story is what actually gives the drama punch. There aren't as many lessons to be learned from a happliy ever after tale. This is better coz we get to criticise, analyze, discuss and really reflect on what it means to be dharmic and the tension of dharma sankat etc. etc. Guess this came out all garbled but have to run to yoga so hopefully it makes some sense.
Kavita, I generally dont try to spend a lot of time thinking about religion, it seems like a subject where a lot of research is done by a lot of people with no benefit to anyone. But here is what I thought about it
I think every religion has its comforting dictates and controversial ones at any instant in history . The controversial ones I think become obsolete over time , since religious teachings are both dictates of the religion but they are also a mirror of the society which is practising them. I think for a religion to survive ( over a long time) it would have to evolve with time.
But the rate at which they evolve ( shed their controversial dictates) is dependent on the society which practises them. A free thinking society which allows for debate would have a religion which is more acceptable to a larger group of people than a society where debate is not tolerated. So a democracy for example would allow for an advanced version of religion to function as opposed to a dictatorship where an older version of the religion would still be used. I am a software engineer , so excuse my terminology.
I think people practising different religions are pretty much the same, (by the law of randomeness) and it is the society they are living in, which governs which parts of the religion they practise. And if the society does not allow for changes , then the society itself needs to be changed.
But the change needs to come from within a society , it cannot be forced from outside.
I still think though that in a free thinking society you cannot blame a religion for the problems facing the people practising that religion.
Aloha Steve
Are you aware that the communities that were burnt down by the African Americans were their own communities? Are you saying their rage wasn't due to oppression? Did you know most Asians who have stores in African American communities come to America with money exchanging contents? Why do you think they are the owners of stores? Most African Americans are generations of generations of children having children. Their ancestors during the slave trade were lucky to survive the boat ride.
The Asians, know oppression, as that is why they migrated to American and those who had empathy and know money, wrote on their windows, Burn Baby Burn. This happened in the San Francisco Philmore district and their shops weren't touched. Most Asians have family back in their home country where they can exchange money to create money. There is a lot of work under the table. They have advantages that the African American never will have.
I guess it was the fault of the liberals that no one showed up at Katrina. Give me a break. I wonder what religion Dennis Prager is? And let’s talk about disallowing Native American Indians practicing their religion. Apache helicopters, how dare we?
The problem with Dr. Wafa Sultan answering the child’s question of violence was she didn’t tell the child the West believes is not the weapon that shoots or kills it is humanity. As the Dalai Lama shares take away the weapons from Saddam, that the West provided, and take away his army, who is he? Love patty
Aloha Steve sorry of misspelling of Continent. I escaped education. love patty
Aloha Patty,
Just one question, I lived in LA during the "riots", in fact it happened on my birthday and that weekend I was moving, plus I went directly into the main riot zone to pick up a Fed. Ex package since that was the only office that was open. Interesting, an African American man was waiting for a package as well, he told me that he walked 2 miles to the office since he couldn't drive for some reason, don't recall. I offered to drive him back to his home, and I must say it was scary, but glad I did it. I saw some frightening scenes. OK now to the question, why did some as you say "oppressed" African Americans burn and loot their own neighborhood, and others equally oppressed , didnt'? Same oppression , caused by very different circumstances and history, yet not all rioted, in fact the man I drove home lived in not so great neighborhood, and was very thankful and I was happy to oblidge. He didn't riot. Why?
Could it be the values or character of the individual? Why don't Palestinian Christians blow themselves up, when their Islamic neighbors do?
I think that's where Prager, a Jew, is coming from.
I would dare say, most minorities who came to America were oppressed in one way or another.
I don't want to take a stand by saying some were more oppressed than others, I know what happened, yet, as Dr. Viktor Frankl who survived
Auschwitz said, to him their were two types of people, the decent and indecent.
Nice to hear from you, just wanted to make a comment.
Love, Steve
Divya,
I am not belittling Dr Sultan. I was trying to make the point that as a meoderate Muslim, what exactly is she saying that's different from what other Muslim Leaders have said in various other countries.
1. I was trying to discuss the point that she makes where she questions the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?"
My point was, that these men and women ultimately believe that they will die martyrs for a cause which they deem to be worthy of sacrifing their lives. I then went on to ask the question why some of these men and women are attacking the very people and society they have grown up with and become integral parts of (hence my comment about the UK bombers).
I think your comment that she has dared to take on the establishment is odd. She is being outspoken about the very fact that she has lost faith in her own religion, and then generalises about this very religion by making statements such as:-
"Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
I'm sorry, but this to me is an extremely controversial statement. Not every Muslim is going out there burning churches and killing people in the name of Islam.
You seem to have missed the point that I made regarding my friends (who happen to be Muslim). They are not disillusioned with Islam in the conventional sense. They are proud to be Muslims and practice their religions. They certainly don't Americanise their names either (This I don't understand. If you have the courage to speak out, then do it wholeheartedly). My point was that due to the anti-Muslim sentiment that has built up since the implementation of Bush's policies on 'the war against terror' (which I think Dr. Sultan is fuelling by making general statements as she did above), my friends feel that they are treated with an element of suspicion. Yesterday there was an article in one of the Indian National Newspapers that was essentially saying that Muslims are being categorised. Dr SUltan seems to becategorises Muslims herself. The anti-Bush demonstrations in New Delhi held by Muslims had caused them to be branded fundamentalists-although they were demonstrating against Amercian Foreign policy). Let's face it if you have slightly dark skin and wear a beard and have a strange sounding name, you are probably a terrorist according to the US Government and most European Governments. Dr Sultan's loss of faith in her religion is down to her personal experience, but I don't think it helps by making such sweeping statements. Why is she any more courageous than her fellow Muslims who are speaking out in the rest of the world? Why is she talking to the Jewish lobby. This is an interesting political move on their part. Get a moderate Mulsim to discuss publicly how the Muslim religion is essentially a violent one, and then perhaps we can get more empathy regarding the Palestinian issue.
The point I made about the terms Freedom Fighter and Terrorist was regarding the psyche of what drives a suicide Bomber. From one angle they are seen as a terrorist, from another as a freedom fighter. The same applies to the IRA, the activist faction of the ANC etc.
I also find it interesting that Al Jezeera invited Dr Sultan to debate with a Cleric on TV, and at the same time is used by Bin Laden as the medium through which he incites violence and then congratulates his followers for a suicide bombing. Is Al Jazeera trying to present two extremist viewpoints, or are they using Dr Sultan strategically?
I'm afraid your comment on Palestine is one of complete tosh. You are saying that the Jews nutured this 'dry worthless desert'? Only yesterday a group of organisations were contesting a wall that has been built around one of the camp areas (to apparently keep out suicide bombers), but is infact cutting off the Palestinian water supplies even further-by 75%. The people already do not have enough water and supplies to live, let alone survive. Your statement that Palestinians are responsible for their own wretched state of misery is down to their own religion and nothing to do with Isreal dumbfounds me. What planet are you living on?
The whole Palestinian issue has veen the very crux of the struggle of Muslims for freedom in the Middle East. What does the fact that the biggest donors to Palestine are EU Member States have to do with anything? What's your point? The Palestinian freedom fighter (or terrorist, as some may call them) is being driven by the release from opression and yearns liberation and freedom.
Politics is a dirty game. The biggest arms dealer in the world is Switzerland which happens to have a foreign policy of neutrality. India supplies arms to Israel, yet condones the Palestinian struggle. The US supplies arms to both Pakistan and India. The British will not reduce their arms delaings, as it generates a huge revenue which they cannot afford to forfeit. Basically everybody is arming everybody.
Why are Europeans getting suicide bombed?. Well, isn't it an obvious link?. Blair supports the war in Iraq and is deemed an ally to the US in the 'War on Terror'. Balir sanctions the killing of innocent Muslim men women and children, so the UK populus gets embroiled in and becomes part of a targeted campaign by the extremists.
Of course everybody knows about the Kamikaze pilots. However, I was trying to make the point in the context of what drives a suicide bomber? Also to highlight that this tactic has moved from a military target to a civilian one.
'Suicide attacks throughout history have taken various forms and have been encouraged by the lionization of those who laid down their lives for causes they deemed righteous. There are numerous examples, from Samson's suicidal destruction of a Philistine temple (as recounted in the Book of Judges) to the legendary Swiss hero Arnold von Winkelried to the Japanese kamikaze pilots of World War II. The first modern suicide bombing—involving explosives deliberately carried to the target either on the person or in a civilian vehicle and delivered by surprise—was in 1981; perfected by the factions of the Lebanese Civil War and especially by the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, the tactic had spread to dozens of countries by 2005. Those hardest-hit were Lebanon during its civil war, Sri Lanka during its prolonged ethnic conflict, Israel and the Palestinian Territories since 1994, and Iraq since the invasion in 2003.
Dr Sultan is not anymore courageous than any other moderate Muslim speaking out. I'll finish with the following comments, by British Mulsims made after the London Bombings:-
More than 500 British Muslim religious leaders and scholars have issued a fatwa in response to the London bombs.
The religious decree expresses condolences to the families of the victims of the atrocity and wishes the injured a speedy recovery.
It states Islam condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives and says suicide bombings are "vehemently prohibited".
The fatwa was issued by the British Muslim Forum (BMF) outside Parliament.
Prayer for peace
More than 50 Muslim religious leaders from around the UK stood together outside the Houses of Parliament to hear the fatwa read out.
We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world
British Muslim Forum
In full: Fatwa issued by BMF
In full: MCB statement
Gul Mohammad, secretary general of the BMF, quoted the Koran saying: "Whoever kills a human being ... then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life it is as though he had saved all mankind."
He went on: "Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.
"We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world.
"We pray for the peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain."
Separate statement
The BMF is an umbrella group launched in March 2005 with nearly 300 mosques affiliated to it.
The fatwa will be read out in mosques across the country on 22 July.
On Friday, a separate public statement was made by more than 40 Islamic leaders and scholars at a meeting at London's Islamic Cultural Centre, organised by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB).
That declaration also denounces the suicide bombings.
Aloha Steve
And Mahalo for responding to my post. I too was in the mist of the San Francisco race riot as I was going home and was treated with kindness. I guess you never grew up in the projects. Some people act out what others feel. African Americans I am sure would have loved to migrate to America by their own free will. Just with that I would say they have been the most oppressed race in America.
Marianne Williams who is Jewish and her father a immigration attorney suggested we build a Wall of Atonement for African Americans. I shall put Prager on my prayer list. How shaming, Rosa Park refused to give up her seat in the back of the bus to a white man and Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. It had been a 100 years since the civil war.
I am glad you brought up Dr. Viktor Frankl for he shared that the reason the survivors of the death camps didn’t tell their stories was because the best never survived. What does that tell you, the mentality of reptilian brain, the strongest and fittest? Are you telling me they were all decent? That is what killed me when Dr. Wafa Sultan shared about Jews vs. the Muslims. Symbolically the war in Germany was fought so we would know there is no perfect race. Morality, Dr..Viktor Frankl put that question to rest because people did what they had to survive regardless if it was their own race. God Bless his Soul.
Do you know how many Japanese died from Hiroshima because Roosevelt baited them to bomb Pearl Harbor so that we could get into the war? George Bush’s Grandfather was a shareowner of a bank that helped finance the war machinery of Hitler. History repeats it self. 911 was a open door for President Bush could go to war without looking at the consequences of murder of so many innocent people. I don’t think he was from the left.
Howard Bloom in his book, Jesus and Yahweh : The Names Divine, shares the Old Testament was edited by Christians. Why haven’t the Jews ever spoke up? Religion is a hierarchy to steal power from those who are not. Easy for Able difficult for Cain. I know it is an accepted fact. No one has more God than the other! Love patty
Kavita, you have disappointed me with this blog entry. I don't know if you were always an intolerant Hindutvaite or if these constant comments by all the bigots here have made you pander to the Hindutva brigrade, but I am shocked and saddened that even our journalists are no longer untainted by this vile Hindu supremacist philosophy.
So one Muslimah has only to question her religion, and all of you Hindutvaites jump onto the Islamophobic brigade. What of the centuries of Hindu oppression in the name of caste? What of Gujarat? What of Babri Mosque?
I'm sorry to say that your entries reek of irrational and highly intolerant Islamophobia. I hope you'll awaken soon and come around to the peaceful secular side. Kavita Chhibber, an in-the-closet Hindutvavadi. Who would have thought it!
I'm not a Muslim so I feel that I can look at this from a clearer point of view. All religions seem to "promote" some kind of negativity. Muslims are terrorists Catholics are child molesters Sikhs and Hindu's beat there wives and treat women like garbage. These statements are not the truth. There are good and bad people from all sectors of life and religion. Religion is like an abstract painting. You take from it what you preceive. It takes a pure soul to truly understand one's religion. The problem here is that we have people who take from there religion what is being conditioned into their minds. Islam itself is one of the oldest religions of the world with a text that has never been changed. What has chaged is that there are "bad" people out there who use this text, this abstract art to control people and to use them for a cause that is evil. Not all Muslims are bad. The prophet Mohammad peace be upon him states in his teachings
-Those who ill treat others do not win Allah's favor
-Refrain from anger
-True heroism lies in the conquest of anger
-honor and hatred cannot coexist
Then again the Quoran speaks of an eye for an eye. This can be taken in so many ways. If a man were to rape my little sister I would seek justice and I would probably kill him with my own hands and I would feel that I have done nothing wrong. The problem is that these so called leaders out there who are committing crimes in the name of God and Justice are full of shit because these bastards are using people weak in the mind, easily manipulated to do as they command. I don't agree with the Bush administration but the problem here is who will rule the world. Islam has been used as a tool to recruite people, soldiers to take over. When Bush talks about the was he speaks of God and Justice as does Bin Laden. Religion is not the issue its a tool used to gain acceptance of war for power and a means to find loyal followers. In my opinion this Dr. Sultan was not a true Muslim because if she was she would understand that her faith did not represent what we see today. Her faith was represented by people who don't understand what Islam or any religion is about. God is powerful and some people are weak and try to read between the lines of the Quoran or any religious book and just don't get it. What about the KKK? These are christians who are convinced that they are killing black people and Jews in the name of God. Is it the religion that told them this or was the religion a front to justify their evil ways? If I am wrong than all religion is evil because anyone can do bad things in the name of God and convince people of their justification.
Anusheh,
Quoting: “Apologies for sounding condescending for that was/is not my intent. I feel your comments were merely opinions and hence not open to discussion” – I do not see any reason for you to apologize. Certainly, you have not offended me. Besides, what is the difference between you and me ?
It is true that often I sound not ready for discussion. Usually, I do not engage in discussion to defeat somebody or to prove that my ideology is the best or to satisfy my ego. Lest misunderstood, I would like to say that I did not mean somebody else does that here. What I meant is that before I reply, I will check myself to see for what reason I am posting. Absurd, isn’t it? May be, but somehow I do that. “When should I keep mum”, someone asked his Master. The Master said, “when you have the strong urge to talk”
Quoting: “Fair enough but when you call me 'angry' all I can say is that my anger if you will comes from my direct experience of life as a muslim” – Sorry for creating such a feeling in you, but I did not call you angry. I recall that in your first comment, you made a remark that your anger goes back to a long time. That is why I said so. Pls also take note that I did not question your right to be angry at the social circumstances that harmed you, or the people who made that circumstances in the way it is. As Dr Hassabala pointed out in his article, surely there is something for the society to learn from your anger.
Quoting: “I often find that as soon as a question of violence and Islam is raised someone will begin to ask you to read the Koran or 'understand' it” – I agree, it is irrelevant. As Andaleeb has opined in one of her comments elsewhere, a religion is known by its followers. Those who answer in that way either do not understand the depth of the problem or are unwilling to work to prepare the society for welcoming the wind of change.
Quoting: “If a school is regularly producing a majority of students who are addicts, violent, and failures does it move us any if the authorities say we should come 'check out the excellent teachers, the shining curriculum' and the fantastic text books they have?” – I disagree fully. The religion has existed for 1400 years with Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), though in fact, it has existed all along the history. Even Prophet (pbuh) has said that “every child is born with a disposition towards God, it is his family that makes him/her a Christian, Jew etc” There are about a billion of muslims in the world now. Most of them are living their own life, some poor, some rich, some educated, some illiterate without harming others, co-existing with other people, interacting with them intellectually or commercially in a peaceful manner. If majority were violent, addicts, then world would have been in flames. The proof that majority were not violent, is that muslim societies existed this long, even in remote villages in various parts of the world, where the ‘sword’ never went to exercise its power or did not show any interest. I do not think a community will last this long, if majority were violent. On could claim that the current turbulences are the signs of the setting of the sun. Let us wait and see. But it will not be helpful if one forgets that there is a propagandist element in it, a media sensation and a counterpart in the corporate terrorism. It does not mean that there are no problems or muslim terrorists . There are. I do not need to list it here, as everybody should know about it. It will change with proper work and guidance. “Until you are ready to change yourself, God will not change it for you”
Quoting: “Many here say that religion is a personal matter.” – Though at the deeper level it is true, I do not exactly agree with that. I think certain religious concepts should be the undercurrents of political science or even in the practice of politics. The problem arises, when it is used for acquiring power. Unfortunately, power tends to attract precisely those who should not have it.
Quoting: “For instance reading a holy text in an alien language (arabic), rattling off prayer in that same alien language 5 times a day is a definition of good, virtuous and spiritual. Being treated as a lessor mortal because of my gender at so many levels because of that same alien text is virtuous. Looking upon others who practice life/prayer differently as intrinsically 'flawed' and justifying 'murder' in the name of a holy war is all virtuous” – Imam Ghazali in his “The beginning of Guidance” says that the soul purpose of prayer is to “influence the heart.” If it is understood in that way, meaning that if one engages in any form of prayer that can influence the heart, there is no difference. Thus it is really ignorance. I can understand well that this answer will not be comforting at all to the brothers of other communities, or to the victims of the same community. But as an ordinary person, I am only able to point out that there is a deeper level of meaning and at that level there is no difference and do some work to change the general perception within the community and outside. There is no justification of murder in the name of holy war or anything else. Period. As long as I know, no one has done it. I say this with the ayat, which Divya quoted in her comment, in my mind.
Quoting: “What does one do with one's intelligence and scientific thinking is my question. Bury it in the rubble of a word called blasphemy” – My opinion is one should not. It is usually said that a believer has a static mind and, it is true too in many cases. However, I think the opposite can also be true. Invariable, the mind of a true believer is progressively evolving, it is very dynamic. In order to transcend the mind or heart to that state, one should use his/her intelligence or as they say in the traditional parlance, wisdom.
Quoting: “If you are from India then chances are that your ancestors like mine were converted to Islam by the sword some hundreds of years ago. What about our ancestors before that? Maybe they were dalits or God forbid Brahmins, pagans who had different Gods and ways. Now how do we decide whose religion is ours.” – Though it was meant for Saidia, hope you would not mind if I try to answer too. There is another possibility that the ancestors converted without any interference of sword. As for deciding the religion, why do you think one need a religion? It seems you believe in God. That is enough. Now, even if you do not believe in God, it seems to me that that too does not make a difference.
Quoting: “No Sadia religion does not teach us about good and virtue. Our heart does that for us if we leave it free from the meddlesome politics of our mind” – Remember the hadith “Every child is born with a disposition towards God (or Oneness)”. If you are not bored with me yet, I would like to quote from “The Secret of Secrets” by Abdul Qadir Jailani (May God sanctify his secret) “Dear friend, your heart is a polished mirror. You must wipe it clean of the veil of dust which has gathered upon it, because it is destined to reflect the light of divine secrets.” There are many ways to wipe the dust off the heart. I do not know about you but I think, in a certain sense, there is nothing wrong if one calls any or all of the ways, a Religion.
Thank you every one-I got home very late and am rushing out again for several meetings, but just wanted to quickly acknowledge how much I appreciate the amount of reserach some of you have put in to write your posts.
Kamini Gul Mohammed's sentiments are felt by thousands of Muslims all around the world.
Amongs all my muslims friends there is nothing but heart break and sorrow over being ostracised because every one has been lumped in one lot. Many Sikhs and Hindus too have been targeted because of lack of education. I had a personal experience where a cop decided to harass me thinking I was middle eastern, because of the way I look and his demeanor suddenly changed when he realized I was Indian and not Muslim. I cannot even begin to describe the anger I felt against him and a system that punishes an entire race because of the acts of a few, and also at the double standards that not every one has become Timothy Mcweigh and been profiled after the Oklahoma tragedy.
I have also noticed many of my Muslim friends and their kids being sidelined for work and from colleges because of their last names. One of the articles I did a few months after 9/11 was heart breaking to write because several Maulims mentioned that they were being turned away in job interviews, that people would look at them with suspicion while they travelled in subways. Emory university and all across the nations, classes on Islam 101 and introduction of sikhism were being introduced but in spite of that racial profiling hasnt ended.
For me the key thing about this discussion is not whether violence are part and parcel of a particular religion, but whether we can do something as individuals to make sure the past is not repeated to affect the future generations.
There has to be an indepth study of past history to see why certain religions used violence and we have to realize as Dr Sultan said that it is no longer desired in today's times.
King Ashoka massacred thousands until he embraced Buddhism, America's invasion of Iraq can as easily be called the worst act of bullying and terrorising a nation. For me Wafa Sultan questioning certain aspects of her religion raises a hope that this may open doors for questioning certain aspects that may not be valid in today's age and time and must be discarded and the positive and good aspects followed. Before partition so many Hindus and muslims lived in peace and love-they followed the same religion even then..what has changed? The same thing applies to hinduism and christianity, judaism and others.
I would love for people to educate us on the various tenets of these religions. I know there are many scholars on the blog who can do that.
Secular Indian, I wish you would read the posts in detail and in their proper context and not hide behind an alias to make presumptuous sweeping statements about who I'm-simply because you dont know anything about my religious beliefs. In any case I wish you would enrich the discussion here by adding some information, as many have done than waste cyber space with silly comments. I would love to get your feedback about the various posts written here. what do you resonate with, what doesnt work for you.
If you think Hinduism is such an unpalatable philosopy back it up with facts, instead of telling me what you think of me. I was laughing as I read your post.
I think you were actually attacking Divya indirectly, and I suggest that you rebut anything she has said by coming up with valid information.
I want to also thank many of you, including some muslims on the blog who have written in directly telling me how much they appreciate that I wrote this blog and that they hope these discussions, will help us all learn and understand each other better.
I will end by saying, its the people who decide who they want at the helm- in any sphere-be it religion or politics, or anything else and its about time we stopped the herd mentality and stood up for the universal truths that strengthen us and unite us. It will be a life long struggle but atleast we would have paved the way for the future generations to work towards making this planet a good place to live in.
Thank you RKL-very thought provoking post. I am going to be thinking about all that I have read as I drive through a congested highway in my morning commute.
Kavita: Your "pre-traffic post" continues on with that relentlessly-exceptional pattern of the Buddha's "narrow middle path," the path that is called the "Razor's Edge," regarding it's intial difficulty in learning to walk with one's "proverbial feet of clay," as one steps tenuously onto the flat-edge of the Persian mystic's "Blade of Chinvat," the double-edged sword of this world's perception of duality, and how that very blade flips to one it's "razor sharp" edges, to bloody the feet of the true initiate, as he/she is traversing the the deepest of abysses of the soul's human trials and tribulations, as it attempts to again cross the "chasm of Chinvat,"--that of it's own inner-darkness--that which veils the soul's most-impeccable and eternal light with fear, while still in a human body!
Actually acheiving this inner/outer crossing requires even the mental/emotional bodies of the initiate to be overcome by the three spiritual bodies of the Egyptian's "Mother Religion," the Power Body of the Sekem, that then carries within itself the Spiritual Soul, the Khu, which in turn makes way for the final accomplishment before ascension on all levels, the raising of the Spiritual Body--the Sahu.
In all there are nine bodies to "tamed," the physical composite of three, the mental/emotional bodies also three, and the spiritual bodies--each with a body, soul, and central heart--it is said that the mastery of each of these nine bodies is like "learning to drive a different kind of chariot--yet each as hard to drive as if that chariot were harnessed to wild elephants with tigers leaping upon their backs!" (taken from page 292 of "The Nine Faces of Christ."
The Mother-Religion of the Egyptians is said to be the source of the "Father-Religion" known as Druidism.
And yet all of the high points in the millenia of development that brought all of the world's 12 greatest "religions" to their highest places of development, generally speaking--sharing one great interwoven thread throughtout the world of 2,000+- years ago--spiritual traditions that do not even declare themselves to be religions, such as forms of Buddhism and Hinduism alike, and yet....
.....for those willing to forgo even the shred-of-a-possibility that their certain historical and cultural conclusions indicate that we are currently at our highest point of human evolution.....well, study the current and past teachings of just the last 110 years--coming from four vastly different sources of the "truly ancient records," records that are indeed being discovered and verified to be, by the most forensic scientic tools employed by modern-day arcahelogists, engineers, geologists, historians; and then combine some of these finds to the claims put forth in the 110-year-old accountings that begin to emerge in 1894, and.....
.....as the India-based Spalding Foundation financed one of the most incredible expeditions in "humanity's antiquity," and the verified and documented records of humanity's most-ancient past also matched very precisely the same history that was brought forth by the 45-year compilation of the nearly 15,000 readings given by one of history's greatest Seers--Edgar Cayce--"The Sleeping Prophet."
These same combined "records" also match up with the nearly 20,000 recorded hours of discourses and disciplines given by "Ramtha, The Enlightened One," whose school is currently the source of the "three students" responsible for the two "What the Bleep.....?!" movies, the second one hitting the theatres as I write--whose school also just sent one it's premier female students to give a profound lecture on quantum-physics to a most-illustrious gathering of NASA scientists at their recent convention in New Mexico.
Ramtha says some of his favorite students are the more elderly women who've given up on the things of youth, their looks, and are now beginning to acheive the experiences of bi-locating, and the more intense psychic experiences that accompanying the true awakening that precedes the stages of full enlightenment.
And through what is brought forth in "The Nine Faces of Christ," just one foundation from four utterly diverse and seemingly unrelated sources from different corners of the same world, spanning just 110 years of the last century in what is increasingly been verified through all forms of scientific inquiry, as well as the broad and deepening reach of all the "soft sciences," we are now aware of some "authentic records verified to be 70,000-year-old records of considerably more advanced civilizations than where we are currently at, but will soon surpass in the next 50-100 years of the greatest awakening in the 10,522,000-year-history of human incarnation, according to three of these sources; and these 70,000-year-old "records" go into civilizations reaching back to 230,000 years ago; with Ramtha's stuff adding some incredible genetic understanding that goes back to a great shift in humanity's evolutionary direction that occurred 455,000 years ago!
Now, what does all this "most-unbelievable mumbo-jumbo" have to do Hinduism? Well, the first tracings of the 8,000-year-old re-surfacing of some of the "earlier thought systems" of what is put forth by the "Upanishads" were some of the fuel that would bring to mankind the "mystery schools" that would emerge in all parts of the civilizations populating the surface of the planet, and led by the efforts of a dozen-or-more different Avatars, and their "strategically-incarnated" students throughout time.
It is through these studies that I come to know only the most superficial understanding of the truly spectacular heritage that underlies the basis of Hinduism's mysterious depths--and why Edgar Cayce's "Akashic Records," known as the astral/etheric world's library--"The Book of Life"--constantly referred to the ancient land of India as the "Library of the World."
What are my credentials to speak of these things, in this manner--well, that's another lengthy rambling in and of itself--and in no-wise would add any needed credibility to anyone's own personal exploration into any one of the source's mentioned above--throw "A Course in Miracles," and the source of it's origination in this soup, and.....
.....even the hardest-core skeptic, such as I once was an eighteen-year-old science student who had just been awarded first place in the six-state intermountain Colorado-Wyoming Junior Academy of Science Fair--and that happened as a result of my first experience of a deep-trance reading putting me out--and waking up "standing in the same place on a stage" I had lost all awareness of as I "blanked out" nearly one hour before; and suddenly "waking up" to a standing ovation of scientists who were the judges of this competition.
It took many many years of study, and subsequent experience, to come to even the most cursory understanding of what had happened that afternoon, shortly before my eighteeth birthday.
I share this "nonsense" with the Intentblog, as I have in pieces before, for the benefit of those who may actually wonder just "how deep," "how long," and truly, "how magnificent" our real heritage and capabilities for unlimitedness are, esp. at the abyss of this most-epic of human sojourns through the veils of time-and-space's many dimensions --and the full magnitude of that "remembrance" is what we stand collectively perched-at-the-edge-of during the coming years:
"And the old Wizard led them to the edge, and they were much afraid, and He pushed them, and they flew!" From Stuart Wilde.
With greatest sincerity, respect, and love for you Intentbloggers--most especially those who so patiently tolerate my ramblings, let alone read them!
Ultimately I have no recognized authortiy to speak like this, except the reckoning of my own soul's memories and experiences, and the Spirit created by the invincible and Eternal principle often called God, that is in truth the Living Light and energy of unconditional Love--It has to be, It's tolerated and loved me all of these immeasurable eons of "forever," and then beyond even that--Eternity, which holds the "Forever of Time" in the palm of It's hand! Much Love--Dave
Kamini - you start off by saying you are not undermining WS's courage and continue on to say that she is not particularly courageous! Your post is entirely meaningless from beginning to end. Although you do make up in length what you lack in substance. I guess it does fool a lot of people into believing you're actually saying something. It you hadn't dragged in a thousand different issues into your one single post, I would have addressed in detail what is wrong with what you say. Rest assured I will take them up one by one in future blogs but really do not want to get sucked into it now.
Secular Indian - You need to do a little better than just turn up and hurl insults. Do you have an intellectual, emotional or moral stance that you want to share with us or do you just believe in passing judgment?
RKL - Did you by any chance say no-one has killed in the name of religion? Can't believe you could have said that, but on reading it a few times that's what it seems you're saying.
I've Got My Fatwa papers ready again, after seeing this discussion:)) Only those who are sensible and not blasphemed will be Spared, the rest I'm going for Fatwa!!! No more discussions for you.LOL!!! Kavita..did you see the true colors of Secular Indian? You keep discussing while I prepare Fatwas!LOL! My God!
Kavita, I'm saying those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones. Look at the state of people's rights in your own religion before you bleed your heart out for some other.
- Look at women being burnt alive by their husbands and in-laws.
- Look at how widows are nothing more than prostitutes where Hinduism is strongest like in UP.
- Look at another sublime contribution of Hindu culture: sati
- Look at the literacy rate of women compared to men.
- Look at the state of women in India: fearful, belonging to their fathers then husbands throughout their lives, having to worship them.
- Look at the state of the lower castes. For instance, in the recent tsunami, the lower castes were discriminated when it came to availing of aid. Lower castes have a very bad life in general. It has improved somewhat in the cities because of laws, but in the rural areas, casteism is alive and thriving. Another great Hindu contribution.
- Look at the religion itself: worshipping stone shapes of monkeys, live snakes and whatnot.
So before you speak about Islam, clean up your own religion. Let them worry about theirs.
I find it very interesting that one Muslimah has to question Islam, and all of you raise her to hero status. That smells like a grand conspiracy to defame Islam to me.
And Kavita, if you make incendiary remarks about a religion, you should be prepared to handle their reactions. Just a thought. I'm not Muslim, but if you incite someone, they're obviously going to react.
As a responsible journalist, you should be building bridges with the moderate Muslims rather than maligning Islam, a religion of 1.5 billion people, most of them peaceful and just like you. That is, if you aren't a closet Hindutvavadi, as I now suspect and am trying to confirm from other sources.
I forgot to add, from all these examples, little boys will also be asking: Why is Hinduism so oppressive?
That is, if the media constantly gave them this information. Where is your objectivity?
I use an alias because names mean little here. I could call myself whatever, but would it matter. It would cause people to box me into stereotypes whether religious, casteist, nationalistic, whathaveyou. I prefer to remain what I label myself below: A Secular Indian. And you, Kavita, are straying over or have strayed over to the Dark Side, wherein lies death and destruction of humanity. Speak well of other religions that they may do the same of yours.
Dear RKL
Thank you for your effort at responding. You're right we are all one. Except I would just change pbuh to mean peace be upon all humanity.
Secular Indian - There are religions issues. And then there are social evils. You are conveniently mixing up the two.
1. Sati - this was already addressed. Do a search for sati on this thread and you will get your answer.
2. Dowry, widows, (and all other women's issues) - has nothing to do with religion. The status of women all over the world is worse than men. There is no need to attack hindus in particular. At this point in the planet's history, status of women is directly proportional to wealth/poverty. The question you should be asking is why the richer nations still have this discrepancy. And while you're at it please use your eyes and see how Hindus have the strongest women in most prominent places compared to *anywhere* in the whole wide world. But of course you will choke before you admit that this could be related to the our culture.
3. Caste - Too big to take on here, but this is also a social issue and not a religious one. This is a problem unique to South Asia. The Buddhists in Sri Lanka follow the caste system. The Sikhs in India do too. And of course the Christians of India are deeply mired in it. On one level this is a bad thing, but on many other levels caste has several benefits. The Hindus of Indonesia do not follow the caste system, so it's clear it has to do with south asia. As for social disparity, this is natural. Social oppression (its evil cousin) exists everywhere. Did you see the state of the poorer castes in the U.S. during Katrina. These are universal problems that go by different names.
4. Worshiping stones and monkeys - why we love them and the whole planet and this is hindusim's biggest virtue. What about you - worshipping a dead pedophile and rapist.
Yes we should build bridges. The ball is in the Muslim court. But what is your opinion of Wafa Sultan, by the way. This is about her and not Kavita.
And stop alluding to the British as a "common enemy". That's childish rhetoric.
They have done much more for Hindus than you have.
When they abolished sati, they faced just as violent a retribution as you accuse Islam of here.
When they abolished thuggee, a murderous Hindu cult (they sacrificed people at the altar of their goddess, not sure if it was Kali), people cheered for having delivered them. No Hindu or Muslim king had had the guts to do this before.
If they hadn't introduced Indians to parliamentary democracy and English common law, India would have remained a bunch of primitive Hindu and Muslim monarchies battling each other.
The railway system that they laid for their ends is still the legendary railway system that Indians use today.
They didn't massacre thousands of people like some Islamic invaders. And they didn't forcibly convert millions of people to Christianity like the Portuguese.
In the time of Hindu absolutism, there was hardly much progress, society-wise. People were rigidly bound to their castes, forbidden to travel for fear of losing their castes. The Muslims brought about the concept of the equality of all men first to the Indian subcontinent. So India today is what it is because of contributions from all over the world, not just Hinduism. To some people, it feels good to fantasize that our own ancestors were the only ones who were imaginative and inventive. That's a typical supremacist fantasy. But for sensible people of whichever faith:
- All religions have their good and bad.
- We should do something for rights in our own religion before pointing fingers at the faults of another. And Hindu culture has a LONG way to go.
- Neither were Britishers better or worse than all the others in India. They did their good and their bad.
S.I. - The truth of the matter is that if anyone so much as says one word in praise or defense of Hinduism they are instantly labeled Hindutvadi or hindu fanatic. A muslim will be called a devout muslim. A catholic will be a devout catholic. A hindu is simply a fanatic. That is why people are so scared to say anything in favor of hindus. At the most they'll say, I like yoga or vedanta, or some such crap. Just so long as they don't take the H word. George Bush on his recent visit to India had an inter-faith meeting. The media managed to write full reports of it without once saying the H word. This is how demonized hinduism is in its own country. That is why you hear of people speaking of hindu oppression because they simply do not have the guts to say anything positive about hinduism. Only the people in the west who practice hinduism understand how liberating it is compared to the Judeo-christian traditions.
Anyway, tell us how should we label you? Islamofascist? Sounds good to me.
S.I. - History as the British would like to tell it is history. It's over. Only hindu-haters like you repeat it. In the U.K. they're well aware of the harm they wreaked on India and are actually beginning to express remorse.
The railway system that you are praising was made precisely so that the Brits could loot India's wealth with greater ease. Why do you think India was called the Jewel in the Crown of the British empire. Precisely because it was wealthy. So your attempt to paint it as some kind of backward backwater has no basis in fact.
Please give us one example of this wonderful concept of Muslim equality you talk about. I'm sure it's written in some dusty book somewhere. Please point to the ground reality. Yes, Indian culture owes a lot to the Muslims. We owe it to the muslims that our wonderful society where women roamed around bare-breasted had to begin covering itself from head to toe.
India was always a democratic society. The panchayat system is very much indigenous. In fact, one of the reasons India is stuck in its misery is because we still have the centralized British system in place.
Divya, it's quite obvious that you are a Hindu supremacist who believes that all that is good came from Hindus and Hinduism.
Yes, the British did harm India and quite badly. They impoverished it as no one had before. But that doesn't mean they didn't do good things too, whether it was to benefit themselves or not is moot now if it ended up benefiting society.
In Islam, all Muslims are equal with equal rights. This was a new and refreshing concept for the caste-mired Indian society. Can you have the humility to accept that?
The rest of your writing is just the ranting of a Hindu supremacist, no different from the ranting of a Christian or KKK supremacist: all that is good came from him and his kind.
I prefer to believe all human products are from my kind, the human kind. I love the invention of the concept of human equality by humans of a time when feudalism and hierarchical societies were the obvious norm. I love the invention of human flight by humans who were constantly told it was not possible. I love the invention of yoga by humans who explored the deepest realms of human experience.
S.I. - India has 100,000 books that are considered hindu scriptures. These books *also* talk about equality. To take just one example, the Gita talks about varna based on division of labor, as well as it talks about every one being equal. It is a slim book and you can read it to confirm.
Now, as for your wonderful Islamic notion of equality. Um, there's just one problem. I'm not included. Islam believes and teaches that it is okay to slaughter people if they do not convert to Islam. Sometimes they are so kind they allow you to live as long as you accept Islamic supremacy. This is called living as a dhimmi. And you have the nerve to talk about Islamic equality! It's the biggest sham on the planet. You yourself made fun of hinuds a while back becauase we worshipped stones and snakes. Does this not convey your sense of superiority at being a prophet-worshipper instead? Please do not throw your text book at me. Let's stick to the ground reality.
Anyway, I've had enough of this. This thread has spent itself and the blog can only handle a certain number of comments. Of course, such topics will crop up again so see you then.
anusheh, at least to me your post - and even subsequent posts which showed the furstration at seeing the main point of your first post being derailed/diluted because of one reason or the other - conveyed the full anger, the pain, the frustrations, the confusions, the hurts, the lostness you went through as also finally the rediscovery of your own self perhaps even beyond all religions.
no need of getting frustrated. people at the top are lonely, so not many will be able to understand exactly what you have written and from where it is coming from. i am not writing much on blogs these days but could not resist responding after reading your so-true-to heart post. just felt like standing by you.
Dear Harb,
Your words to Anusheh convey the Truth of experiential Knowing, which comes to each of Us in different ways. It is a journey, often we stumble, to finally fall into clear awareness, Self. To wander, and then to return back to the One.
It can be an alone experience. Yes. (it is never a mass movement, these kinds of discoveries).
It is a great joy when One finds another, where this truth and understanding resonates. That is why words are often not needed. It is a deeply felt connectedness.
Love to you.
~ Kate
...I have missed your writings here at intent. Thank you for your presence here Now.
Hey guys... sorry I am late... actually, I have been busy with my work. Anyways, coming back to the point...
This one is for you Divya... You have constantly been talking about Dhimmi and about killing all nonmuslims. so May I please quote a website.. do visit it..
http://islamicweb.com/begin/myth10.htm
Coming to my second point... I understand, you have a right to laugh, but only if you know the facts.. otherwise you might be a part of laughing stock yourself. I mentioned about women rights in Islam, and this made you laugh. I am quoting a website... It has numerable topics that tell about how women are treated in Islam.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
In case you donot have enuff time to read this all out... Please do visit the following page:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ruqaiyyah09.htm
I could have argued about all this myself, but I thought you might consider these more authentic.
Secular Indian, since I seem to have riled you let me respond to your post.
Firstly I loved the lines where you said, ‘I prefer to believe all human products are from my kind, the human kind. I love the invention of the concept of human equality by humans of a time when feudalism and hierarchical societies were the obvious norm. I love the invention of human flight by humans who were constantly told it was not possible. I love the invention of yoga by humans who explored the deepest realms of human experience.” Awesome, and if that was truly the case you would have seen the plea for humanity and compassion and understanding in my posts.
Instead you tell me you are trying to find out if I’m a closeted hindutatvavadi-(this is the first time I’ve even written a word like this let alone pronounce it-it’s quite a tongue twister)- from your so called sources? Why don’t you come forward with your name and information as to who you are so I can answer anything you want to know, after confirming your identity- on the blog itself- that way you will get the facts straight from me, and not from your “so called sources” whoever they may be.
Where did you see me insulting Islam, or do you represent those who wanted to shut up anyone who asks for an opinion or asks for a healthy discussion? The title of my blog is the title of the article I posted from New York Times. The 12 year old is of mixed blood-part Sikh, part Muslim and part Hindu. The friend in California whose daughter asked the question is Muslim. Incidentally how do you know that I’m not going to blog about other religions and ask questions? Are you Sylvia Browne in disguise and have read my aura on cyber space or have you already decided what my writing schedule is going to be ?
No one has catapulted Anusheh to a heroine status..people appreciate the fact that she is not a blind follower and I hope neither you nor me nor anyone will be that in anything we chose to do or follow and not just religion.
Even if everything you wrote about my religion- (and again my father’s great grandmother was a Pathan woman, one of my uncles married a Muslim lady-so what religion does that make me), was true, and everything negative that you have claimed I have said about Islam- which again is souch an unfair accusation-is true-wouldn’t it be better to set the record straight if you have facts and figures to prove them and enlighten me and others instead of lashing out as you have done?
You didn’t read the fact that my brother is an Islamic scholar and pro-Islam- and yes he backs it up with information that he sees pertinent- some people agree with him and others disagree but he keeps the dialogue open both on Islam and Hinduism- you didn’t read the fact that I come from a secular liberal family, nor did you pay attention to the things I have said in a respectful way, the questions I have asked in a respectful way-..what the hell are you reading on this blog secular Indian? If your reading is so selective, maybe you need to call yourself selective reader but try and get out of the dark side yourself.
Asking others to be responsible and accountable must go both ways. your comments unfortunately sound neither secular, nor gracious nor enlightening.
Also please give me statistics, and facts when you speak about anything, even when you comment on my writing-look at my posts carefully, and please do take the trouble to also point out places where you see me being respectful and compassionate and secular and walking that narrow middle path as David mentioned and you will see that it is pretty much everywhere.
I asked the Palestinians pretty hard hitting questions respectfully and they were happy to answer them and even appreciate the fact that I asked them. Ignorance stems from unanswered questions. There are many aspects of life which arouse deep emotions in us, and that is why religion can be such a powerful tool to heal and I hope you will be one of those who would help in doing just that and not lashing out without carefully reading what is being said and putting it in its proper context. I would really appreciate that.
Also, Divya made some very pertinent points, but her last line on one of her posts caught my eye, “But what is your opinion of Wafa Sultan, by the way. This is about her and not Kavita.” It really isn’t about me, it’s about how the community at large that you talk about responds to an interview like this. And you don’t come across as either a moderate Hindu, Sikh or Muslim because you have not done one bit here to build the bridges you are asking me to. I also see you contradicting yourself in several places.. Building bridges happens as I said in a previous post, when we talk respectfully, clear fallacies, don’t take things personally and don’t presume things-it begins with respectful dialogue and if we took a poll here, I doubt too many people will accuse me of being disrespectful to Islam or anyone else who has posted here.
You failed to address the issues the interview raised which is the main segment of my blog. I also posted Dr Hassabala’s comments which was really the flip side. Nothing from you on that as well. Instead you went into several tirades about me and Divya and it did nothing to enrich the dialogue here-I’m really not that important-the issues are far larger than all of us.
I would love for you to give us some really wonderful insights about Islam and why people should be educated; but as you said to me, you too must be prepared for rebuttals and come with more facts to rebut anything that is erroneous without taking it personally. Having said that believe me I’m re reading your posts and thinking about some of the things you’ve said as well. For me hearing diverse voices on sensitive issues is the best way to learn, once I remove the superficiality of personal outbursts, and the first few lines that I posted written by you, were wonderful. I would greatly appreciate more of that from you.
Thank you Harb for posting here and Kate-you are the true healers. Thank you David, your writing skills and knowledge always touch my heart.
Guys... I have posted something quite informative... It is waiting approval at the moment... but dont miss it at any cost... You gotta read it
but Kavita... You have many a times mentioned about your muslim friends suffering becoz of their surnames... I donno how far it is true. But I myself have lived in England all my life... I was born and brought up there. Now I work in the High Court as a lawyer and believe me I have never suffered anything due to the name Haashmi... Infact, believe it or not, I donot have a single Indian, Pakistani friend here... They are all Europeans or Americans... And even in the Courts I am not treated any less from any Haydens or David:))) Maybe I am Lucky
With Love Sado
Kavita...I vouch for you! Not at all being disrespectful!
First things first....Get his name out Kavita! I really suspect on that...my earlier one was right on dot!
You thought most people come here to read sincerely and discuss Kavita?? God! How naive still!! Had that been the case...there wud have been some wonderful discussions on the topic itself in the first place. Oh Yeah...really loved that part of yours in the post...It's not abt Kavita!!! I love that Humbleness in you!! I'm sorry if I talked a little much on you...but people do Way more than that! LOL!
Anusheh is Awesome!! My words! She's an example for so many!! IT wud be shame, if you don't welcome and foster her and make her feel at home!
It wud be great, actually to see heading back to the original topic. What was it? Just kidding!!
Truly..Sachin
PS:Get his name here on the blog Kavita, that will be clear up lot of things.
Sadia..That was Astonishing for me! You were born and brought up in a western country and you were like that! Think abt those who are born and brought up in a real Islamic country?? My God! What a world we live in!!
Hey Sachin,
Lemme tell you something more astonishing... Noone in my family wears a hijab(by choice).. I donot practice my prayers, regularly. I come from a very liberal family... My parents have never imposed any religious barriers on me or on my sister. We can choose what to do and what not to.
Still, I am as much a muslim at heart as I expect anyone else to be.. Not becoz I was born to a muslim father, but becoz I choose to be one... After all the readings I have dont in my religion.
Dear Sadia,
lots of love to you too..you may know of Justice Mota Singh then since you are in England. He was the first Indian and sikh to become the top man in the British legal system. He told me in an interview which I will be publishing soon that though he came to england in the late 50s or early 60s, that though he was a fully turbaned sikh he never ever faced any discrimination. So I guess the legal system there is awesome. Also I will be interviewing on of your mega culinary kings-Ghulam Noon shortly.
thanks Sachin. Actually, I have still learnt a lot. I think as I said soemthings affect us deeply and we hit out because we are hurt- not for any other reason.
I have to run now for some more meetings. This is a crazy week for me, but I'm learning a lot here.
lots of love to everyone-secular Indian included
Kavita
I wish to add here that a few days back when I logged in to intentblog... I was quite pissed off at everyone here... I could not believe that people in here were poking fun at my religion and talking about muslims as if they are criminals...
But after being here for some time... I have realised that everyone doesnot necessarily have to agree to what I think... And becoz they think they are right, it doesnot make me wrong...
Patience is a part of the teachings of my religion... And I have to be patient... If I want to be heard, I gotta learn to listen to others too.
I have to admit, I have started to enjoy my stay in here,,, even though, Sachin didnot welcome me:))) I am glad I came and I stayed
Love you all
Sado
Sadia....My readings were right on abt Anusheh and yourself. Sensitive and loving!
My God!! Anusheh Stunned me first with her beauty of Self Reflection! Now you seem to Stun me! Wow! Sadia! What I read in your last post was unbelievable, after reading your very first post!
Beautiful! Do you understand a little of hindi or Urdu Sadia? Same for you Sadia....Aayiye Is mehfil mein aayie aur Rang jamaiye..Jiske dil mein Pyaar mohabhat Aman ka Jazba kisibi Mazab ke upar hotha hai...Uskeliye Hamare Dil ke Darwaze hamesha khule rahenge!
Yes Yes that was very beautiful from Sadia, abt the choice! Yup! If it's by choice, then most certainly yes. So you weren't as Anusheh and most of us thought abt you!!
Speak up Sadia...you do seem to be a Gentle woman...So, if you speak to me, I Promise to be even more Gentler than you in the discussion.
What's happening?? I can't believe...here I'm reading posts abt War and all its dirty things, and all of a sudden...Something beautiful comes up. Wow! That's Life! You never know when Beauty strikes you!
Welcome Sadia Saheba!!! I've grown up in Hyderabad India...which has a rich history of muslims! So...I know lots abt it, and Respect and Sweet language mean a lot to me!! Hence you see that from me sometimes in my posts.
Truly..Sachin
PS: Kavita I'll wait till you get the real name of Sub Inspector!(SI):)))
Sadia..I was typing in my last post when you were. I hadn't read your last one. It happens here at blogs sometimes. Oh damn this net communication! These are the typical drawbacks of this communication. Wish it was in person. Wud've been so different. Isn't it? This is all the more reason for me to just shut this net communication.
I hope you enjoyed my welcome for you in my last post. Here's again....Come and Blossom here! Love..Sachin
Sadia, glad you are liking it here. Sachin, no need to beat up on Secular Indian. I think, there is no personal vendetta here. Islam has been criticized more than ever after 9/11 and I don't blame people for becoming overtly sensitive. Plus there is diappointment in me, because I havent lived up to expectations of what he/she expects of me. sorry about that S.I. Hopefully we can work together on the blog to make your first lines in my previous post come true.
At the same time its not just limited to Islam-Divya's comment about Bush's visit and what it brought in its wake is also something I'm thinking about. Dr Sheth who I quoted Divya, said soemthing very interesting-he said of all the trade blocs he expects Asia to become the most successful because the only religion there is money. It doesnt have any huge religious icons like other trade blocs do-maybe Bush's visit and the example you quoted is a manifestation of that..Dr Sheth also said that economics will replace ideology in the way the world does business, and Israel will lean towards Russia who is close to middle east...
interesting thoughts-have to really run..
take care all
Beat up on SI? Are you Mad Kavita? By asking for his real name, is it a crime?
You say all these things to others.."Plus there is diappointment in me, because I havent lived up to expectations of what he/she expects of me"
You never express such things to me? Why? Scared? Or just becoz I'm humble and not focus much on myself? Or Is it that you don't see goodness in me? Not fair!
Remember the world doesn't become a Good place by just saying goodie goodie to everyone. You seem to do that! I've often seen this in you and I've told you this point a few times now as a Friend. Especially as a contributor, it's a Blunder!! You'll screw up your life in wasting your energy.
If one is so proud of being a Muslim and not ashamed of that name Identity, then one shud proudly come and do that...as Sadia did! She's a proud muslim, and she has those convictions and she's not afraid of revealing her name! Do I've to tell you these basic things Kavita?
You seem to be in Rush. So..no Rush. At leisure, you can write...and this time I wud like to listen to the answers to my questions. You know me well...In what faith and Intention I do?
Thanks..Sachin
Sachin,
I see nothing goody goody in looking at things objectively. S.I. doesnt know who I am I dont know who he/she is...why should I take it personally.
And btw way that line to you was said with a smile..not in a critical way- yep running around so forgot to put the smile icon next to the line. sorry about that.
I personally think people come here at times to educate, at others to discuss, at others to lash out-whatever their motives-I take what I have to take from here, and leave the rest-I try to explain my point of view respectfully and with humor, as much as I can. I learnt this very important lesson-that at the end of the day the only personal opinions that should matter are of people who know us well and truly care about us.
You wrote out of affection which I greatly appreciate-at the same time I addressed S.I.about the post. I also appreciate the fact that he/she at least thought I was a responsible journaliist and while I can't please every body we must always give people a couple of chances and then if they dont understand where we are coming from just end the dialogue and move away.
Anyway appreciate your support. Now I'm going to be really late..!!
take care
You're in a Rush..But still find time to write back immediately.
If you CAN DO ONE FAVOR for me Kavita, wud be great. All that I've said to you(An Intention which you understand fortunately) take it to your SELF REFLECTION activity, whenever you do that(driving, before sleeping at night,whenever). With no Defensive Ego at all...with a cool head think abt it...what's this Man Sachin saying? Does it have substance and logic in what he's saying? What's his point when he says that. I Understand each and every point of yours, the logic behind it. Try the same.
That will do!
God bless you!
Truly..Sachin
Daer Sachin,
I am majoring in English in my first year at university. I am 18. It means I pay close attention to details.
Please Sachin, why do you spell words like ...wud, cud, becoz, abt, etc.?
Love, Angie.
For those who might be wondering what Divya and and others mean by "sati", please see below.
Sati" means a virtuous woman. A woman who dies burning herself on her husbands funeral fire was considered most virtuous, and was believed to directly go to heaven, redeeming all the forefathers rotting in hell, by this "meritorious" act. The woman who committed Sati was worshipped as a Goddess, and temples were built in her memory.
Regards.
Dear Angie...When I saw you were that young and doing english majors. It Softened me Instantly. Oldies wouldn't care a damn to such things, they would've seen enough of world. It's basically the net lingo, short cuts.
But Hey..I'm sorry! I will write in full, so that it doesn't hurt you in reading and in your studies.
Which University are you in? I was about to write Uni:) Actually, if you could write in how you find Intent would be great to hear, how does a teen of today find Intent?
I'll try my best not to write those shortcuts, but pardon me if I miss sometimes.
Thanks&Take care...Sachin
Dear Sachin,
I attend the University of London. I want to be a doctor. I find Intent very informative and educational. I think that almost everyone who blogs here is intelligent and smart, and I enjoy visiting and reading what people have to say, in my spare time.
love, Angie.
Ron Saywack, your definition of 'sati' is a Christian/Western interpretation. There is no concept of a heaven, hell or eternal damnation in Hinduism.
A woman who sacrificed her own life on her husband's pyre (purportedly out of love or worship) was considered to be the epitome of virtue and hence worshipped. Also, she and her husband would become couples in future lives as well, that would be the fruits and blessings of her deed (karma).
Sachin, your persistent demand to know my name is amusing. How tied people are to knowing names so they can immediately place them in neat little boxes to fit their reference frames. Muslim name => a certain perspective, behavior, etc. Hindu name pointing out problems with Hinduism => certain characteristics. As I said, I'd have preferred to remain just a 'Secular Indian', nameless and identityless with only my words to speak for me. But since you're having such a hard time dealing with someone like that, my name is Arjun. Yes, I'm a Hindu Brahmin. I'm a smartist and believe in the Advaita school. Is that sufficient?
I (or rather the ancient Advaita school) believes that (our) Consciousness (also called The Observer) itself is God and so, when consciously directed can Create. When Muslims or anyone pray en masse, they are directing their consciousnesses to a common point and that creates a very powerful Creationary force. Mass human experiments (radio shows that asked listeners to pray for rain, mass meditations in Washington to reduce crime) all bear this out. So Consciousness is the Creator. It forms the support for Creation. Check out the very good movie 'What the bleep do we know?' to see some of this philosophy explained.
Kavita, I will respond to your points later.
This movie also talks about quantum physics and how that too is leading to the conclusion that we truly create our own reality. I'm not too conversant with the science, but from what I understood, apparently, at the quantum level, everything is just probability clouds and only when The Observer enters the picture and observes/measures with the expectation of something does one of the probabilities become observable reality. A fascinating idea..
But to come back to this thread, I believe whichever religion one belongs to, prayer or focussing your consciousness holds the key to literally making things happen. And that is why I hold Islam, at least the idea of the five prayers and 1.5 billion humans praying en masse in high esteem and believe that to have great creationary energy.
As to points raised by Kavita and Wafa Sultan, I'll respond to them later on.
Thanks all and Hi Arjun/S.I,
I get back and read this very interesting last post, about putting people in neat little boxes..I did a story some time back on the gay lesbian, transgender and bi-sexual community and one of the guys I interviewed, an only child of two physicians said that after being in denial about his son's sexuality, and when threats and talk of-lets all kill ourselves as well as a hunger strikes failed..his father said, hinduism does not put itself in any slots..so dont call yourself gay-leave room to explore to know(this guy had dated women and yet said he felt happiest with his boy friend). I think just what you said here in your last post actually resonates with my underlying request-lets think out of the box, have a dialogue-there will be ruffled feathers but there are so many people who are very knowledgeable and can enlighten us..there are also some really kind learned souls who hesitate to speak here because of the negativity that a sensitive issue like this can bring..and well we put a lot in neat little boxes not just our names!
I'm sure you will know about Dr larry Dossey who talks about the power of prayer- a scientist and a physician, and a man of logic, he said he had to bow before evidence..he had segregated heart attack patients in two groups-the ones who were prayed for anonymously healed faster without knowing they had been prayed about-the ones who were not prayed for took longer to heal. He even experimented with negative vibes..on plants..the plants that received negative vibes wilted and the ones that received loving nurturing blossomed.
I have experimented with this enough to believe in the tremendous power of prayer and again that is why religion becomes such a powerful took towards healing-but as I said the only way to ensure that is to remove what is obsolete and negative in any religion and it begins with dialogue.
You cannot realistically expect to have everyone agree with you all the time, but I have never had a problem when I sit face to face and talk with someone on any issue..have you?
well its been a long day-time to get some dinner and do some work.
take care
S.I. - Since you lashed out so strongly against the caste system, you are obliged to do your bit to end misconceptions about it. Our scriptures are full of descriptions of what a Brahmin is. One of my favorites is Yudhister's description in the Mahabharata, sorry I don't have a link to it. But there are many, many other references. It has nothing to do with birth - although it invariably ends up being that way because children learn from their parents. But unless you lead a very simple life, do not drink alcohol or eat meat, oberserve some measure of daily rituals, are well-versed in the scriptures, have the ability to chant mantras from at least one of the vedas, and are ethically irreproachable, you do not have any right to refer to yourself as a Brahmin. Please either drop any reference to caste, or introduce yourself as a shudra. Gandhi said we were all shudras by birth and only those who developed the above qualities merited the label of Brahmin. From this perspective we can see that Brahmins were indeed worthy of respect and shudras not so much. If we tie it in to birth only then it becomes an injustice. I hope you will do your part and stop calling yourself a Brahmin. Of course, I'm assuming you do not meet the requirements, because if you were familiar with the vedas you would not harbor such intense hatred for hinduism.
I don't mean to pick on you, but I have said this to others as well and I do feel strongly about this. And as you said, reform must begin at home.
Kavita, that's a great story about foreclosing free development of your own mind by labelling yourself.
Divya, what do you mean by 'organized religion'.
The caste system today is as it is seen: a heirarchical birth-based system. Whether some scriptures may speak of a different system is not relevant when the reality isn't so.
Just as you point to Muslim terrorists and say 'that's Islam', the caste system can be pointed to as an example of Hinduism. So we need to change the reality of the system in India, not just mouth repeatedly that that not 'true' Hinduism.
I accept your point about labelling myself a Brahmin. I was only using a designation, I don't actually consider myself a learned person, far from it.
You rant a lot about people defaming Hinduism. I hear the same from Muslims. I'd rather you did something to improve the situation, improve people's lives instead. All the problems I pointed to are real problems in Hindu society (whether it's a result of the religion or not is irrelevant) and need to be addressed before we a. shout from the rooftops about its greatness, or b. denigrate the problems in other societies that may follow other religions. I haven't done anything much to improve the lot of fellow Hindus, but I don't claim my society and its religion is the best in the world. I like it, others may prefer other ways (Islam too is a beautiful faith if you truly know some decent Muslim families).
Hello All,
This was a very sensitive and thought provoking blog...i have read each message.Appreciate the courage of Wafa,anousheh,sadia and others to evaluate their faith and undertake a journey of self relisation too find their own truth....
I have to add a blog on Islam like this ...is a space for discussion and raises all the right questions.It doesnot need to be hindu v/s muslim issue.We cannot justify terrorism perperated by muslims by bringing caste system ,woman status and hinduism.These are two seprate issues....and mixing these two issues doesnot solve the issues which are real for muslims...the issues they face each day.
My biggest struggle everyday is to raise my two children on the right path.To teach them not to read namaaz 5 times a day as a ritual but to thank GOd for the bounties....lead their life with humility and gratitude.Question everything in religion if it doesn't make sense.
I donot know when i'm struggling to define my own truth how can i sit and pass judgement on hinduism or anyother religion.
I strongly object to criticism on kavita...she is a journalist and as a conscientious journalist she raises right questions....she presents both sides and comments like "closet hindutva vadi etc etc"are in a very poor taste....
Muslims and we followers of islam need to evaluate and understand other people's prespective on us.This can be a learning experience for us.......our journey to define ourselves...
Yesterday i went to religious ceremony...and speaker said...our problem is we try to define and find answers to our metaphysical quest via material things...(this is a poor translation of what he said...)In a nutshell we need to search our soul and find our own truth.......
All the posts are informative....i really wanted to contribute more on this blog but school,work and sleep deprivation has taken its toll.Intent has taken a backseat for now.....
Dear Sachin,
Thank you for providing the audience with the true Hindu interpretation of "sati."
Whether it is the Hindu or Christian/Western interpretation that is the acceptable form around the world, is of little consequence to me since I consider such matters, as with all religions, fictional, ludicrous and primitive.
My contribution to the discussion was to provide some explanation/information to my fellow bloggers who may not have been familiar with the term; not to engage in a bebate of its interpretations or semantics.
Thank you.
Dearest Andaleeb,
I bow to you!
~ Kate
The unfortunate thing about life is that it only takes a few bad seeds to ruin the crop. In life and in the media people tend to only look at the negative because that is what will grab someone's attention. I feel that anger and hatred is the enemy of the ego. It's easier to hate and put blame rather to understand the true meaning of anything. True ignorance does not mean that you are stupid, it means that you are intolerant and too lazy to see things for what they are. It's easy to say that all muslims are terrorists and its easy to say that catholics are all child molesters because that's what we hear. When was the last time you picked up a news paper and the headline read "Muslim family opens there home to needy children of war" or Mixed race/religion youth group work together to bring racism to a stop" we don't hear of these things because story's like these don't matter because they comprimise the fact that Hatred and Ignorance is what people really want to hear. The media plays a huge past on the portrayl of human depiction. Remember that a lot of people out there never knew what Islam until 911, that's reality and for these people who don't know any better are going to think only negative about Muslims. People are so freaking ignorant that they will mistaken a Sikh for a taliban member because of the turban. I know the difference and all of you out there do as well because the majority of you guys are Mulsim,Hindu and Sikh. I'm Catholic and 23. I met my first Mulim person my second year of highscool. I din't know what a Mulim was but I din't care. Sad to say though, if time was changed and 911 happended in my second year of highschool and I met a Muslim person I would probably be scared and hateful towards this person only because the information that I would of been provided about Muslims would be negative. People feed from the information thatthey are provided. It sucks and its not fair but it is reality. People need to spread more positives out there so that our youth can understand that Muslim people are not bad it's that there are bad Muslims as there are bad Catholics Sikhs and Hindus. The reality of life is there are bad people in all religions and in all cultures. Religion does not make a person, VALUES, LOVE AND TOLERANCE IS WHAT MAKES A GOOD PERSON, A GOOD MUSLIM A GOOD CATHOLIC....
Divya,
Once again you fail to impress me with your personalised retort to my comments. Since I have been on this blog, I find your comments to be ascerbic and patronising. You seem to be very pissed off alot of the time. Yoga not helping your spiritual development?
You seem to have a problem with other people voicing their opinions. On this particular blog post, to me you have come across as some sort of Hindu fascist, with your anti-muslim comments bordering on the xenophobic. It is people like you who are fuelling this anti-muslim sentiment by making such critical remarks about Islam. For every one Muslim extremist, there are thousands of peace loving Muslims who are entitled to practice their religion in peace. How dare you. Who are you to criticise people's belief?. You don't even have the ability to understand that this whole debate is about intepretation of a religion. Not only do you not ask questions, but you point fingers. You seem to be confused about the origin of religious belief versus the practising of a religion.
I am a Hindu and when the genocide happened in Gujarat, alot of Hindus were disgusted by the actions of their fellow Hindus (who killed in the name of the religion). Hindusim is at heart one of the most tolerant religions, but over the years has been re-interpreted to instigate a system of inequality and repression of women (I'm referring to the HIndu Laws as accroding to Manu).
Quite frankly, your ranting is irritating. The statement you made about the Palestinians was quite disgusting.
Perhaps you should learn to listen to other people and accept they have a different viewpoint, maybe you'll learn something. If somebody makes a comment, rather than slating them, you should respond intelligently.
I look forward to your retort to my comments. I hope your response is an intelligent one-as I have not seen this as yet from you.
Perhaps I should call you the pissed off ranter?
I will ask a couple of questions about Islam here that have been bothering me. Hopefully someone has an explanation:
1. My understanding is that according to Islam, human beings only live one life. And this is the life they have been given to enter the gates of heaven by submitting to and worshipping Allah and living a good life as a Muslim. But what of those millions of people (say in South America) whom Allah has let live and die for millenia without any exposure to the message. What is their fate according to Islam? And also what of the millions of people who came before the Books were revealed? Are they condemned to hell?
2. How do people observe sunset/sunrise fasts in places where days and nights last 6 months? What does God say about people in those regions and the schedule they should follow, assuming he knows all?
Thanks.
Ron, just wanted to clarify the sati definition, not debate anything. Just as body material is recycled and takes new forms, Hindus believe the energy of consciousness also assumes new lives in different forms, but the forces of karma would still be at work. The funeral pyre is when all consciousness is released from the body by cremating it.
Hello Harb
Good to talk to you in cyber space after so long. Thank you for your understanding. Yes indeed it is a lonely jouney (I'm not sure if I'm at the top of anything) and one I usually rarely feel moved to share. Perhaps something in Dr Wafa struck a truth so powerfully that I entered this space of 'sharing'. Actually for the longest time when one is stuck in the painful process of shedding artifice and donned identities you can only be silent and self-absorbed. But I remember hitting a phase of experiencing such 'freedom' from the lies of created selves especially religion (and mine) that I just wanted to run out and tell everyone-hey we don't have to walk through our lives questioning and re-questioning every instinctive truth because of some 'legacy'.
But something always stopped me because I realized it was not possible. Sharing at this blog spontaneously, I guess took me back to that time and feeling. It has of course taught me valuable lessons all over again and for that I have Dr Wafa, Kavita and Intent to thank.
Truth is indeed an arduous road Harb which can be only undertaken from one's own conviction. How can one even begin to define the concept of freedom for others unless they have not accepted the notion of imprisonment.
love
k, anusheh,
k :)
anusheh, yes, we experience what in science is called quantum jump...in which our past in a way gets totally cutoff for a while and we see the whole thing in a new light. we are never the same person again. we begin living in the present in which that vision of freedom is further realised consciously, step by step.
and yes, becoming aware of the imprisonment first is sort of necessary precondition for such a quantum jump. because otherwise we never question ourself, our situation. but once we have realised our freedom, our own truth within, we live our own, self-directed, life and not as directed by any other self/legacy may that be even of a very highly placed messiah.
i become and i live what i am.
Dear Anusheh,
I think Harb
is
Wisdom
embodied!
And it is so nice
to meet in the place
of Freedom.
Thank you for coming here to intent
and sharing!
~ Kate
Sadia,
I am intrigued by two of your statements and wonder if you would care to clarify them. In your first comment you mention at the end that you are an Indian and subsequently mention that you were born and brought up in the UK and are a professional there. Do you have Indian citizenship or were you implying Indian origin? Not that it matters really but am just naturally curious.
Arjun (Secular Indian),
I grant your point about being one of the millions upon millions of Indians who are secular and that the true name is really reduntant here. However, if you have been following this blog for some time you may recollect that a few months ago there had been a problem over anonymous bloggers.
I must admit to being a bit cynical when I first saw your ID and thought to myself "Oh no! Not another one of those." I am very wary of people who proclaim that they are Secular Indians at the drop of a hat. In my mind I associate that term with unsavoury politics. The real problems in India are not secularism but many many others, medical care, education, poverty, shelters for the poor, infrastructure etc etc. Having failed to really make significant changes and improvements most politicians fall back to their last refuge of pronouncing themselves as Secular Indians. They then go about wrecking the solid secular fabric of this country by their divisive policies. Come any election and you will hear most of the wannabes staking their claim to governance by saying they want to give this country a secular govt. That is their sole claim and appeal, as if secularism were the only and most important of all ills plaguing us. It certainly isn't.
That apart, since you and Sadia too also brought about the issue of the Babri Masjid etc in your opening comments, I would like you and all of us to seriously consider just how long are we going to continue looking back and pointing fingers at each other? Would you agree that it really serves no other purpose than to evade the real issue which is, where do we go from here? How do we move forward now and consign the Babri Masjid, the Bombay blasts, Akshardam, Rath Yatras et al. to history, where they belong, without forgetting the lessons we have learnt from them. When do we start to look ahead with hope and useful sugestions on how to avoid these situations? Aren't we tying ourselves into knots just like the Israeili and Palestine problem where a suicide bombing is justified by an israeli air raid which fuels more bombings? We desperately need to move beyond seeing issues only in terms of Islamic militants and Hindutva fundamentalists, more so at Intent where I feel people do have the aptitude to discuss things threadbare, intelligently and constructively. Failing that we let yet another oppurtunity pass us by.
Kavita,
In one of your comments here you mentioned something about Muslims being dependant on Madrassas for education or something like that. BTW Im confused about the very word, is it Madrassa or Madarssa, as I have seen elsewhere? Anyway..I too was under the impression that these institutes are the cause of laying seeds of discord among Muslims. I was therefore quite surpirsed to read recently that in India, at least, only about 3% of Muslim children attend Madrassa education. This piece of information has certainly changed part opinion about the influence of madrassas in India.
Kamini,
You mention the Israeli-Palestine issue in your comments. Here again my perception of the whole problem has changed recently when I came to know of one minor relevant fact which I was totally unaware of. It seems almost bizzare to me that this dispute has been going on for over 50 years and getting even bitter daily. Yet in a larger global perspective it is actually almost irrelevant. I was shocked to hear that Israel covers an area of just about 20,000 sq. km with a population over about 6 million. That is less than the size and population of an average Indian city! Palestine is even smaller. Doesn't give me any confidence in our ability to clear up any differences of opinion or disputes.
Having roots is hardly a form of imprisonment. It helps the tree to draw water and nutrients to sustain the life force. So that it can expose its leaves to sun light and fresh air to draw further energy from other sources too. Once the roots are cut, the tree falls down. Can we then say the tree has achieved its freedom?
Possible too, if the roots some how did not function the way it was supposed to.
One can hardly have 'our own self-directed' life, it is the same Self. There is no external exalted self or messiah for others to obey, it is the OneSelf which passes thru every one. Some knows it, realises it to varying degrees and some does not. By removing the dust of the karma from heart, each of us will realise it.
Hi Angela,
The one gift you can give this world, is the gift of yourself.
And unless you Are that which you want the world to Be,
you will never See it manifest.
Consciousness is the way by which One shapes the world.
Here is a strange secret:
You need change no one else.
(you really cannot change anyone else).
Continue to cultivate the qualities of love, compassion, and tolerance.
You are on the way, I can see in your writing. This is an exciting journey you are on!
Blessings,
~ Kate
ho thr u wonderful intelligent beings,i feel like a cave woman when i read all ur comments,plsss do wait for me when i come back here next life as intelligent as u all,till then i shall just sit on my chair at the pc table and forget all my household chores (including having left half eaten lunch on the dining table,and half done washing of clothes)and enjoy this site and polish my rusty brain of centuries.
Kate,
Thank you for the wonderful words. My frustration lies in the fact that the world just wont take the time to back up their opinions. If people would just take the time and understand all sides before making judgement the world would be a better place, not perfect just better.
angela
A Lion once told me that it is better to save the Hen and have the egg tomorrow. Greed of life leaves us empty later. To wait and savor is life's own reward. Why is it that we always eat the Hen first? Why can't we just take the time to savor? With life there is no end, no beginning, just a continuation. What we do today affects tomorrow which influenced the day before which then became part of the continuation.
Ego is the enemy of the human race and knowledge with true understanding is what shall save us.
Hey SI, Dara or Arjun:)))
I have loads to talk about at the moment. First of all, the answers to your curiousity. Yes, by Indian I meant Indian Origin. Sad but true, many people who live all their lives somewhere abroad forget where they come from. They tend to call themselves English(in this case). I am not one of them. I have always believed that the roots of a person have to be stronger for him to have a stronger personality. I donot at all believe that if I live someplace all my life, I will become a part of those people.. If the case was this, then why when some foreigners meet us in the UK, they always ask us where we come from. Why dont they ask the same question from the English men??? becoz no matter how hard we try,we are different. And I take it as a compliment.
Yes, you are right it is high time we forget about Babri Mosque, magar humain bhoolnay ka moka tau do. Everyone keeps on reminding the muslims of their mistakes and if we speak back, we are asked to forget about the past. My question for you, why these double standards??? You forget about our mistakes( committed by some illiterate just for the sake of violence) and we forget yours. I am giving you a fair deal.
Well, I am quite new to intentblog so I really dont know about anonymous bloggers:))) Though, I'd love to know:))) Actually, I quite accidently bumped into intentblog. My Colleague is writing a book called the "Pride of Asia".. and it is about all youngsters... and we thought this site is quite about young people too...
Coming to your question:
1) About the people who know nothing about Islam or the people who lived long before Islam...
Allah says that every person will be questioned according to the knowledge he has. If I didnot have any resources to find out, If I was never told about Allah and His teachings. I cannot be questioned about these things. But if I had all the resources and I was told about His teachings and I still went astray then I am deemed to be in the darkness of punishments.
Here I would like to add that Allah says He can forgive HakookUllah but not HakookulIbaad. Which means that He can forgive if we didnot pray, but He will not forgive us if we were not good Humans. HakookulIbaad means the rights of fellow Humans. In Islam, we believe that we will even be questioned about the fact that our neighbour was suffering maybe due to hunger or whatever... and we had all the resources to help him but we didnot. Islam has always stressed upon the rights of other humans. so for the people who didnot know about Allah's teachings simply had to be good humans to enter Heavens.
2) YOur second question was quite interesting. The point is we can only ask this question if we have not visited those areas and we have just read it in books. My Best friend comes from Norway and it is not that in whole 6 months you donot see the sunlight at all... sun rises and sets even in winters... It is just that the duration of the day is shorter than summers. Similarly in summers sun sets a little later than it usually does,,, This only means that fasts will be longer in summers and shorter in winters... If they are suffering with longer fasts.. at times they have the benefit of much shorter fasts. Islamic months are not the same as the ordinary calender. They keep on regulating. Some year Ramadan is in Januray, the other in February and so on. So it is not that people in the areas you mentioned cannot fast at all. Infact I believe, this is the case in the whole world. Even in India, fasts would be longer in June than in December.
I hope I have answered your questions properly. I am not an Islamic scholar, so I have tried to tell you all I knew to the best of my knowledge.
Also Kavita, you have been mentioning madrassas. There is no concept of studying in madrassas only in Islam. Yes, madrassas are a good place for Islamic Education.. And one should be fully acquainted to the religion in order to practice it. Nowadays, many wrong people have come up in madrassas and so the image of these places is not the same as it should be. In Islam, it is said that we should seek education from cradle to grave... and this goes for both men and women. It is said that we can travel anywhere at all just to seek education, nowhere does Islam mention that seek education from madrassas only:)))
Sachin, Thanx alot:))) As I mentioned above that I have not forgotten my roots. I do speak Hindi, and yes even Urdu.. becoz I have always liked the element of respect that Urdu language has in it which no other language has. Maybe Kavita next time we can start up a discussion on this topic:))
Love ya all
Sado
Sadia,
Just out of curiosity-wherabouts do you live in the UK? I'm of Indian origin and grew up in the UK and now live and work in India. I know several 2nd 3rd generation UK born Asians and Africans who are very aware of their origins-however they consider themselves British as they were born there, grew up there and now live there(some are not really interested in their countries of origin, as they only know the country where they have grown up. Like you I always say that I'm of Indian origin, but grew up in the UK (I was born in Australia!). I'm proud of ebing Indian and I'm proud of the UK. Its liberalism the freedom of speech.Anybody can say what they think about anyone, whether its the Queen, Blair, etc.
Interesting that you say you are always deemed different in the UK. I have always felt this in India since I was a child. I am constantly being asked where I'm from in India (although from my name its self evident that I am an Indian), but don't recall this happening in England. Even though India is my country of origin, I am always a foreigner-even though I have alot of family here and know the country well. That would be an interesting post-how do you define nationality?. I agree with you. A piece of paper does not necessarily dictate what's in your heart e.g. holding a British passport, doesn't mean I consider myself English. However, there are times when I relate more to the western mindset than the Asian.
I'm not sure that most people who live abroad forget their origins-why do they then form communities and gravitate towards their own kind?. Infact, I think that has been one of the issues regarding immigration to the UK in the 50s. Some have not forgetten where they came from to the extent that they still live in the past and according to how they lived in their countries of origin. I think this is why some of the children are in turmoil-growing up in the West, but still expected to live their lives according to a different cultural mindset etc.
Some of the older generation still live in a time warp to a certain extent, when the country they left has moved on socially etc. However, we all know that there is an element of security in familiar language, food, culture, people.
What did you mean by forgetting your origin? Some people don't want to be different, and try and integrate fully in a society-others choose not to. I think you have to integrate into a society on some level, just to establish some sort of identity within yourself. If you live in a different society with different values, it is only beneficial to relate to them and understand them, but not ostracise yourself from them.
This is actually what led me to ask the question why the suicide bombers from the UK, (even though they grew up and lived in the UK and were very much part of the society) were driven to do what they did. I don't know if you agree-but I think the UK is one of the most tolerant societies in the world. There is an element of respect for different cultures and peoples-which is why it takes pride in calling itself multi-cultural.
Divya, Kamini, and Sadia: In spite of, and in light of, some of the contentious feelings you may feel as barbs between some of you, or toward my own posts here, I continue to learn much from your discourses; about Islam, Hinduism, as well as many more things about the subtleties of the psychological contructs that govern just a "smidgeon" of the diverse spectrum of human perceptions.
I thank you each for your in-depth contributions that so deeply supplement my own learning--and "Sado," if you do not mind, I'm much pleased that you've stepped forth with such great force, into the ever-evolving and ongoing "Intentblog 'conversation!'"
I find it most interesting that the name "Abraham" may have originated from "Ah-Brahm," and "-in" the same fashion as "Allah" may have originated from "Al-Ilah."
It is then strange "beyond belief" how that sound of "Ah," and "Om," or as "AUM," are found somewhere in the almost all the names, in any culture or timeframe, that are attributed to the one universally creative "source," and eternally-sustaining "force," of us all--and all the universal dimensions--both "Known, and Unknown" to each of us, as it were.
I have even found some historical tracings of the "Ten Commandments" as attributed to Moses, or Moshe, to have had their true origins "rooted" in the Hindu systems-of-thought, and indeed were usurped from Ancient India as portions fo these thought-systems migrated, over great expanses of time, through the Persian empires, and into the Middle East.
I hope these "thoughts" are not taken as declarations of any set-in-stone truths, again, as it were: just something to consider, in return for your individual and combined willingness to contribute, and render vulnerable to personally unknown sources of scrutiny and sometimes supremely harsh and unfounded criticisms; that which you each hold most-precious in your deepest personal beliefs.
Much love and sincere respect for each of your provacative posts! Dave
The previos reference to "Allah" should have appeared as "Al-Ilah"-capital "I" and lower-case "L." Dave
Kamini - You think I am a moron. And I have also made it abundantly clear that you write like a perfect moron. Unfortunately, this does not move a discussion forward. When I take apart what you or anyone else has to say, I attack your statements and not your personality. You on the other hand let loose your personal opinion on what you think of me. Hope you can see the difference. This is nothing personal, at least not for me. I attacked the fact that you grandly came in here to make a splash and say that WS is not particularly courageous. Really? Is that a moronic thing to say or what. Whether that indirectly makes you a moron is a separte issue and not worth taking up on a blog.
So, if you want to label me a fascist, please produce the sentences I wrote that makes you believe I am one. Hope its not asking for too much of you to know what a fascist is. Please look it up in the dictionary if you have to. If you think I am a racist, please produce the sentences I wrote which makes you say so. I have spelled out clearly, without making any bones about it that I believe Islam and Christianity are totalitarian ideologies with no redeeming features. I can back this up with historical facts (both from the past and the present). I am not alone in thinking so. Nietzsche said the same. So did Bertrand Russell. Innumberable other philosophers have said the so. This is based on oberservation and is an example of calling a spade a spade. If it bothers you, or if you think there is no truth to such a stance, please provide us with some counter-logic, or counter-evidence to support your stance. Just coming in here to say that your sweet sensitive sould only observes goodness in all things may go over well with your friends and lovers, but it only makes me want to throw up.
Angela - I skimmed through all the messages real fast but I think you said something about the fact that if there are so many sexual scandals in the church that doesn't mean that all catholics are perverts, and that if so many muslims are terrorists that does not mean all muslims are. The fact of the matter is that if there are so many sexual scandals in the church, and if there are so many muslim terrorists, you absolutely need to examine the ideology, or the structure behind these institutions to see why there are so many perverted priests and so many muslim terrorists. Unless you want to hide behind primitive taboos that religion must never be questioned. If you can bring youself to display some courage you absolotely need to get to the bottom of this by studying the history of these religions. By pretending that there is no correlation you are in effect blessing the perpetration of child abuse and terror.
WoW To Kavita first!! To what level this thread has gone! Incredible! Many factors involved in it basically...but wonderful to see the level which it took later on.
Dear Angela...I would guess, you already know that I'm a Medical Doctor, mainstream basically but later on got into Integrated Medicine and from there into Spirituality. So..hey anything you would like to know more from me as to what are the Essentials to become a good Doctor, how beautiful and Enlightening medicine is..you're most welcome to ask me..and if at all you're inclined towards the search for Truth..Medicine itself can be a great subject to Investigate and you'll invariably Find the "Beautiful hand of God" in the human body. I've always considered to be a blessing or just the fruits of good karma of past life that I was destined to be a Doctor and then onto the Spiritual path. Then, to find someone like Dear Deepak. It's been Icing on the cake for me!
Oh yeah..Thanks for letting us know how a teen of today's era sees Intent. All the best to you in your Endeavors!
Love..Sachin
Divya....You do make some wonderful points! Especially pertaining to hypocrisy and double standards.
Mr.Ron...Is someone else playing with your name? It was quite funny to read the post, posted by Ron later on saying that Thanks Sachin for your explanation of "Sati". Generally I crack jokes, but good one, I had a good laugh. I think someone else played with your name. I don't think you're such a Crook.
Truly..Sachin
Sadoji...I was glad you understand the language. Spot on! There isn't any other language as Respectful, Sweet and Grand as Urdu is. No wonder you see lot of poetry in it, even by many hindus, and our romantic film songs are filled richly with it. I've basically grown up in this culture, here in Hyderabad. So, I know a lots about it. Why Kavita Sado?:))We both will start the topic together, how beautiful and sweet is the language Urdu! Aap Tashreef laiye, aur Hum Pahunch jahenge...Aapki Ada, Aapki Khubsoorthi, Aapki Nazakat ka Muzaira Dekhne ke liye. Aur Umeed karthe hai..Aap bhi humein kuch Usi tara Pyaar Mohabhat ke nazron se dekhenge Jis tarah Hum Aapko dekhthe hai.
Aadab Arz hai...Sachin
Arjun - Do you really think that India is capable of keeping a "system" in place from the entire length and breadth of the land, down to its remotest villages and tribal areas? Do you really think that such a "system" can survive in the way that it has for centuries on end just by external control? This is absolutely impossible. Whatever you see, is a natural grouping of people. There is only one way to change this and that is through genocide. Let's wipe out the entire evil population of evil India and replace it with enlightened western-educated secularists like you. This is what the Christians did by the way. They wiped out entire continents - north america, south america and Australia and now they have a homogenous population and they preach to Indians about homogeneity. Go ahead Arjun, take up an axe and go kill all Indians because that's the only way you can wipe out the caste system. Or wait for globalization to do the job.
By the way, did you read the article that Kanika posted about goodwill between Hindus and Muslims? That is an example of the caste system. Do you see Indians raping each other each time there is a crisis? Even in Pakistan this did not happen during their earthquake whereas this routinely happens in any American crisis. This is an example of the protection provided by caste (jati). Caste creates cohesiveness among social groups. As a contrast, look at the shape Africa is in today. Their society too was structured around tribes. Tribal loyalties and tribal culture has been wiped out and replaced by loyalty to the One True God. Look at the consequences. That is precisely what will happen to India if you wipe out its indigenous social organization.
I think I'm going to have to start saving all this stuff I write about caste. It follows the same pattern each time. No matter what the topic under discussion, some secularist "Brahmin" will jump up and start talking about caste and sati without knowing jack of what they're talking about but just repeating what their white colonial masters have taught them say about caste.
My Persistent Demand has worked Dear Sub Inspector Arjun(SI)!!LOL!! Just kidding buddy!
I'll leave aside your silly interpretations about me asking for your name for a while...becoz I Simply Loved what you talked there!! So beauties(Positives) first...Uglies last(preferably overlooked). Do you agree with this point?
I was exalted to know your name is Arjun! You may not have an Idea of what Useful info is that for discussion!!! Don't forget the box theories are ABC's of what I Teach. Yes, box theory is filled with flaws, but it is not the same as "infering a lot just by a little data". To me, it has worked! Coming back to the real points:
Arjun!! That name itself Inspires! Arjun is my Fav character in Mahabharat. He's the Symbol of what it means to do one's duty! He shows us (thru'Krishna) that No damn Bloody relationship is more imp than the Truth or the Right. Now..it's an altogether diffferent chapter what is it? The whole battles in the world are going on based on that point.
You got a very good understanding friend! I really like it When a Hindu Bashes Hinduism and When a Muslim bashes Islam...that is almost a sure sign of Unbias!! You may have never seen me bashing Hinduism...I used to do in my teens, I was a Rebel. Otherwise, it's looks the same story of me defending my thing you defending your thing. At the end of the day, both parties are more convinced than before that I shud stick to my guns. The day this world reaches the Stage where a Muslim talks about the flaws about Islam and when a Hindu talks about the flaws about Hinduism and likewise for Christianity and others, that will be the Day of Real Spirituality!
But knowing human minds and its patterns, its rich blood filled history...I, don't see that happening at all.
You did raise some wonderful points, so did Divya. There's lot of hypocrisy in Hinduism, just as is in others.
I've to keep repeating the concept of Spectrum! Life doesn't come in two colors, if it's not Black it's Got to be White! No! It's a Spectrum of colors. When we say muslims..they come in hundred shades. When we say Hindus..they come in hundred shades. But you do try to find what's majority and what's minority in that spectrum sometimes.
Peace&Love..Sachin
PS: Hey..Are you the same Arjun by any chance who used to visit here before? Maybe not.
That right there is the true power of God working through Dr. Sultan! What an amazing "Woman"! Incredible!
Sachin,
aap ki khidmat mein mera aadaab,
Very true about Urdu... Apart from the poetry, I like the andaaz-e-biyaan of the language.. especially addressing with aap and hum... seems so much of respect and ek tehzeeb.
On the other hand, Hindi mein jo apnapan hai woh kisi aur mein kahan:))
Sorry Kavita, you must be wondering that where is this discussion heading to.. From religions to Language... Now what next:)))
Kamini, I live in Euston at the moment - it's very urban and central which I love, but I miss the riverside culture of Chiswick which is where I used to live as a child:)) There can be loads to discuss about the multicultural sides of UK... For the moment I want to stop right here... becoz there is someone else I gotta address at the moment.
Yes Divya, it gotta be you:))Out of curiousity, I really wanna know. Where did you grow up?? I mean, I have always believed that the place where you grow up plays an eminent role in your personality. and the personality should be accepting, like the mughal architecture. Have you ever noticed the mughal architecture? The vast and large buildings, high walls, so many windows... seems like almost everything and anything can be gathered under its one roof... A person's heart should be like this and not encased in a tiny box. Do you get what I mean by this? I mean, the way you are acting in here is not being smart, it is being STUBBORN. It does not seem like you are here to prove a point, it seems like you are here to make people believe what you have to say By hook or by crook. You dont have to agree with everyone... But you donot necessarily have to disagree with the people who dont agree with you. If you are willing to say, you should have the heart to listen aswell and sometimes even admit that others might be right true..
Love ya all..
Sado
Sado....Hai Allah! Kya Khub! Don't worry too much about Kavita...She's a Sport and very embracing in her heart! But nowadays she's become a Hindutvavadi Kavita as SI was saying.LOL!
Sadia..it's ok to interact here, or one can do it on the open thread too. Well...If you want to be in Heated arguments...then you can do it here. Main Hawadeeno se Argue nahi kartha generally, main samjtha hoon Pyaar is more important than arguments going nowhere.
Maybe I can gently ask you a few questions and have a gentle discussion.
Over to you...Sachin
Sado - I assume you are referring to my discussion with Kamini. Could it be you don't find her statement closed-minded because it happens to coincide with what you believe? Considering you must be aware that taking a public position against Islam will get you death threats, I find *you* to be locked in a box in not granting Wafa Sultan her due. Maybe you've lived in England too long and need to take a tour of some Mughal architecture.
You say that you believe that a personality should be accepting. Well, do you accept the tortures at Abu Ghraib? Do you accept child molestation? It's all very well to make lofty statements but in the end they turn out to be pretty meaningless. Please go over your own posts and see how unaccepting they happen to be. As they should be. If you claim to believe in something then you have to take a stand.
Anyway, I appreciate dissenting voices, and it's nice to get feedback of any kind. But I prefer to stick to the issues and not get into a personality psychoanalysis.
Hey everyone once again,
well Sachin, I sort of enjoy the heated argument environment in here... This is the same environment I am used to in Courts:))) And then in these discussions, you have so much to participate... In the open discussions, you cant discuss so much.
Yes Divya me again... Yes I am referring to your comment to Kamini... And it has nothing to do with who agrees with me..
Divya, if you read one of my earlier posts.. I have very clearly stated "I have realised that everyone doesnot necessarily have to agree to what I think... And becoz they think they are right, it doesnot make me wrong...
Patience is a part of the teachings of my religion... And I have to be patient... If I want to be heard, I gotta learn to listen to others too"
Like Sachin and I have totally different view points... This doesnot mean he is a moron. I pretty much like him and his attitude. You have to accept others to be accepted...
But in your case, you are as stubborn as you were when you started posting in this particular blog... You seem unmoved, even with valid arguments.
By the way, you dont need to continuously visit the mughal architecture to have a good heart. You just have to make up your mind to be one. If you are Great, this doesnot make others Morons. Infact greatness is not in being stubborn but in being accepting.
Love
Sado
Sado - Again you miss the fallacy of your position. Let's say you think that child molestation is wrong. Someone else thinks it's right. Are you going to simply shrug your shoulders and say he's entitled to his opinion. What is the purpose of discussions and blogging? To arrive at the truth of something, isn't it? I am not a moral relativist and do not respect moral relativism in the least bit.
Next you go on to say that I am unmoved by valid points. Please produce one single example of this. This is my challenge to you. And if you cannot, please stop lecturing me. And do me a great favor and stop talking about how good your heart is.
And by the way, Sado, that moron statement was just by way of example to Kamini that there is no sense in calling each other names. Guess you completely missed that in your enthusiasm to give your lecture.
Now, unless you want to continue to be stubborn, and unaccepting and closed-minded, please do not respond with a long moral lecture.
Ok Barrister Sado!:)) I understand your points. You seem to be quite young Sadia to blogs. I understand your viewpoints...but let me caution you on this one..Divya is very good in debates. She's a Ripper! She can rip apart anyone with Facts. Mostly her presentations are Fact based. You can't really win against that, unless you're a twister in head. You being a Barrister, actually cud be a great learning experience with her...becoz Ideally that's what you do in courts.
So...if you wish to further your debating skills, go for it...but don't mess around with her, cautioning you as a friend. She's very good with history, she's deep and most importantly she is fact based. The only way, if you want to beat her in debate will be to come with hardcore facts and present her, or else it will be a closed chapter. I'm saying all this to you becoz...you're a barrister and you really seem to want to get into this and learn. So yeah...not a bad idea. Focus on the debate, not on religion and personalities. Ok? Just some friendly advice for you.
Go ahead...
Love..Sachin
PS:Main badhmein baath karunga tumsein:))
Hey Divya,
Me again... First of all I am not trying to tell you that I have a heart better than yours... Even I have flaws... But I believe I am great enuff to admit my mistakes.
Hey, I have suddenly found myself lost in a forest... How come we are discussing child molesting... And how come you think that either Kamini or I are child molestors??? We really are not, we are quite normal humans:))
Coming to your Challenge... By now, I know one thing for sure that You think Islam is a violent religion and all muslims are terrorists... Atleast this is what I get from your discussion... Let us take it vice versa... I challenge you to bring any valid point against Islam and I will defend my point of view to my fullest. May it be Rights of women in Islam.. becoz this has been an issue of quite humor for you... Atleast, this way I will feel good that while making my point clear I am making you laugh too... And not just demeaning your heart:)))
Dont worry at all Sachin,
Me being new doesnot make me any less intelligent than Divya... Infact I find nothing but stubbornness in her comments. Maybe you people have never seen her discussing with someone like me:)) I have been debating all my life and you dont know my track record in the courts, maybe this is why you are saying all this:)))
Infact Divya is the one who should be warned!!!
Infact Divya,
I had posted earlier about Islam being tolerant of other religions... But it is still waiting for approval... That post was especially for you... A must read I must say:)))
Ok Dear Sadia...if you've good track record already in the courts, it's a good sign. I felt you're a young barrister. So...you both seem to be raring to go. As you wish..but I hope it turns out to be a good debate and not mud slinging and cutting each others hearts for no reason.
A good debate between you both can be very good for the blog and the site. Sadia..I know and most others know...there are lot of wonderful muslims around and also there are lot of wonderful things in Islam...but in a debate one's got to be precise to the point
Good luck to both...Sachin
And Sadia when are you going to have a Gentle debate with me?:))
Sado - Whew, I thought that's exactly what you were trying to do - tell me that you have a better heart than me. Funny, I wonder why I got that impression. Well at least you've admitted you have flaws. Some progress. But you still haven't stopped hurling personal insults. As I said, you can call me stubborn and I can call you stupid and we can go on all day long. I will not respond to any more of your posts if you don't stop doing that. Unless of course you qualify your statement by saying "I think you are stubborn because . . . " [with valid quote]
If you are itching for a debate, please go through this entire post and pick up any of my comments you want to take apart. There's plenty of material right here.
And I do not appreciate your saying that "rights of women in Islam is an issue of humor" for me. It is not. As I said, if you continue to mischaracterize me, I simply will stop responding to your posts.
Frankly, I think we should simply drop this thread and pick up on these issues another time.
Sachin,
First things first... I am a young lawyer... just 24 at the moment... but yes, I have an experience of 1 year... 12 cases in total:))) including the ones under supervision:))
Divya,
Impressive, atleast you have a heart to back out of the discussion BECOZ you know you are going to lose BECOZ you think I am better than you BECOZ I have valid arguments BECOZ I am supporting what is Right and Not just being stubborn.
You are Stubborn:
1) BECOZ you fail to admit you are one
2) BECOZ you are continuously singing the same old tune I am right and you are wrong
3) BECOZ you tend to ignore all facts that refer to you being wrong.
Coming to the Women Rights in Islam... Is it not an issue of humor for you??? Am I seeing things or Are you suffering from Amnesia??? I am asking this BECOZ you yourself in one of your earlier posts said that you wanted to laugh at it when I said that Islam supports Rights of women.
Yes Sado...you win on that last point sure! Hmm! I think you got stuff and clarity.
Yup! That's the way you debate!
Thanx Sachin.
I am glad you thought so BECOZ next time at least you will back me up instead of Divya:))
Ok Sadia...Let me ask you a couple of questions like a Gentleman. I don't think I can be harsh with you at all. Try to answer it point wise by pasting my question preferably and then answering.
1. Islam does allow the man to have four wives. What if the woman decides to have four hubbies? Is it possible? If not, Why? Is it because women are different inherently from men?
2. Anusheh had said Women generally are treated inferior and like dirt in many cases in the name of Religion and Allah. I just think it's the Male chauvinistic Ego at play to treat women like that. Mind you, I understand it's not just confined to Islam,it's just the male psyche/ego...but we think it's more in Islam than anyother religion.
Be short, concise...that will be a good read. Lenghty ones are boring for me for sure. Many short ones are better than long ones.
You can be dead sure, I'm asking with total respect to you.
Truly..Sachin
Sado - So that's what you were talking about! I thought that was something you had simply pulled out of your hat. But nevertheless you are wrong. Please do a search for the word "laughable" and re-read the relavant post. When one uses the word laughable in that context it is meant to imply contempt and not humor. Please check this with your english teacher or any of the native english speakers you interact with. Unless you are simply a dishonest person and want to deliberately twist the meaning of what I say. But judging from your english, I am willing to concede that you did not originally understand the implication of the word laughable in that context. Hopefully, now you do.
I back up Logic and Truth Dear Sadia! If in the next Divya wins...I'll show it clearly.
To me....there is nothing bigger than those two things which I said above. Individuals can be bigger than things like Justice and Truth.
So...if you show us clearly...then you win all the time..but if someone else shows it...he'she wins. My posts are taking a little time to go thru'. Is it happening to you too Sadia? IS it Intent Server or my Net servers I wonder..
Love..Sachin
In response to Sadia, Divya, writes:
"But judging from your {E}nglish, I am willing to concede that you did not originally understand the implication of the word laughable in that context."
I notice that, too, Divya!
I second that thought!
Short and Precise for Sachin.
1) Yes men are allowed 4 wives and women are not. Simple reason.. Let us take is this way that a woman has 4 husbands and she gets pregnant.. who will be the father of the child? On the other hand, if a man has 4 wives and even if the 4 get pregnant at the same time. There is no confusion at all.
2) I quote from Quran:
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)
Infact, I am quoting a web address. It is quite short and concise. You can just read the titles.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womens_rights_references.htm
Hope this is clear to you
Yes contempt is exact! She may win thru' the word game. One can say contempt thru' humor..
Go ahead..hoping it doesn't turn out to be futile.
Hey Sachin,
Yeah the posts are taking quite a long time to go... Maybe this thread is sort of overloaded:)))
Coming to you Divya and AJ(Since you 2 are making the same point)
I do understand what you are referring at. Maybe, my English would not be as upto the mark as you want it to be.. But believe me, I am not sitting an English Language exam at the moment. I just want to make my point clear BECOZ your mind seems quite polluted with STUBBORNNESS.
I do understand when someone uses the word laughable he might be saying that he finds it funny or he is trying to poke fun at the other in hidden context of contempt. In either cases, it refers to the humor of the person.
By the way Sachin, I am off for today, gotta rise early morning for court:))) Will continue from where I leave tomorrow
Sachin - You are totally beginning to get on my nerves. Please go watch a cock-fight or some mud-wrestling and relieve yourself. Remember to throw some pennies into the ring while you're at it. This is not some cheap circus for your entertainment so please stop treating it like one.
Ditto, Divya.
Of course...I meant "Cannot be bigger" in my earlier post.
Sadia...you'll have to battle it out with others here in debate. Perspecs will soon come into play and you'll soon see deadlocks. anyway...
I'm ok with what Islam has to say about the second point...it's the men who do nasty things by not following it.
The first one...in today's era becoz of dna testing...one can easily find out the father. Gosh! I'm not enjoying this discussion but...
What do you say then....
Sachin,
Do you have to opine on everybody's post? You are beinning to piss me off, too!
I thought that you guys were upset at poor North for over blogging! What do you think you are doing, dude? Chill out, take a break! Whoa!
It's your Damn Perception Divya!! You can make out anything you like! My perception..Clearly told in my above posts.
Yeah...with People like this who talk of Debate and turn this crap. No way! I'm out of this.
Sadia...You take care of yourself...this is why I warned you before...it may not be worthwhile at all.
God bless you!
Love..Sachin
Just got back home after being out all day at meetings. I see the blog has derailed a bit..may I request all to please stay on course and discuss what is relevant.
Sadia, womens's rights is a very huge topic and not just in the context of Islam-if we leave religion aside, and just look at how women have evolved through the centuries, it would make for a very interesting discussion in itself. If we take it in context of different religions and the evolution and status of women, that would be a pretty interesting discussion too.
So any one wants to take a stab at that? :)..and poor wafa sultan-her interview is buried under somewhere and the issues she raised..as did many others..
Also would love to know what each of you are picking up here-personally I see some amazing minds here-I also see some who reacted quickly without giving the posts much thoughts, and that happens as there is a lot here right now to think about.
I also decided that I will blog only once in 7-10 or more days..just absorbing the posts from this one blog will take me days, and bring many more questions. I have been guilty of this myself-where I would think of a topic and blog three tiems a week, and have all the posters run from one blog to the other-not to mention great many blogs with diverse topics from other esteemed bloggers here.
Today, if I can go through the responses on my own blog and manage to read a couple others I count my blessings.
Also to make one more point about madrasas..I should have added that my knowledge was based on intelligence reports my father and uncle had access to- in madrasas specifically in some parts of Pakistan. There are many in India that are doing great work in teaching underprivilged Muslim kids since they provide free food and boarding. There was however a very interesting discussion on how some of these are becoming obsolete because of the inablity to introduce subjects relevant to modern times. As a result most graduates were either relegated to becoming teachers or priests and there were more people and less jobs and that created a huge financial problem.
Okay I need to make a cup of tea and I hope I get to see some interesting posts.
Kate...I bow to you...Your unique simplicity speaks volume...
regards
"Yes men are allowed 4 wives and women are not. Simple reason.. Let us take is this way that a woman has 4 husbands and she gets pregnant.. who will be the father of the child? On the other hand, if a man has 4 wives and even if the 4 get pregnant at the same time. There is no confusion at all."
Brilliant! I've never seen this angle before. Today, DNA testing allows us to identify the parents virtually unambiguously. Any chance Islam and Sharia would update itself in light of this advance? Ever?
There is absolutely nothing more diabolical than getting the victims to justify your perversion for you. The neocons are eons behind PBUH.
Agree with Kavita's comment about staying on track. With all this talk about winning rounds I was wondering if this were degenerating into a boxing match. Its been a good discussion, hope it stays that way.
Hey everyone,
yeah Sachin and Stuart... DNA testing is quite a valid point but may I please inquire, Would it be feasible to have a DNA test for each child. I mean, is that all that one gotta do all his life??? And what about some remote places where such facilities are not available as yet? You might find it difficult to believe that DNA test is not easily available in Pakistan at the moment. It is only available in one particular city. What about the women who cannot afford to go there? Should they wait until this facility is available in their particular city? or Do you think that Islam should introduce a rule that women who live in modern areas are allowed to marry 4 times and rest are not? Why the discrimination???
And Sachin, there is one thing for sure... Divya is not here to prove a point, she is here to argue over anything at all. You might find it funny indeed.... that almost everyone have started to irritate her by the end of the day:)))
Love ya all
Sado
Well Divya,
I rest my case. You are incapable of having an intelligent, balanced dicussion with anyone.
I don't think there is any point in retaliating to your comments to me. I am here to discuss issues that I think are important, not enter into slanging matches with fellow bloggers.
I think your insults to Sado and me and others are unfounded and unnecessary. You may think we can't speak English, but you have proved that you can't read it. You totally miss the point of other viewpoints because you're too busy being the 'pissed off ranter'.
For the record I am not avoiding backing up my statements; I just can't be bothered to enter a dialogue with narrowminded, sanctamonious, self obsessed people who are using this medium to promote themselves.
I will NOT enter a personal vendetta with you, not just in relation to this post, but others where I have contributed and you have insulted me.
I can give as good as I get, but you really are immature.
Kavita....there's one woman who comes from Islam (Sadia) here to discuss nicely...and Instead of welcoming her and sharing the views...what do you do? On one hand you talk...let Islam come into open debates, and when someone nice like Sadia comes around...you talk about derailment. Most of the threads after the main topic is talked for a while goes in other directions...it is but natural. Here, we're not talking about how beautiful life is in Switzerland. Anyway...bias Undhar hee chupavho tho kya kar sakthe? No one can dig and oust it. This is why I say that point all the time...if at all it has to happen, the change has to come from within. It's a longway, you can see it easily. Anyway...
Sadia...I really like the way you discuss. How wrong I was thinking that Intentbloggers are good in discussion and not someone with a muslim name. As said earlier, Anusheh and you both stunned me. Arjun too later on!
I've seen it here Sadia...it gets way too dirty and hence I generally try not to get into that. You're most welcome to stay and do it here, but I suspect they will Tear you apart, without paying any attention to what you're saying, without a respect...and that's not a healthy discussion at all to me.
If at all you like to have the discussion with me...I suggest you address Exclusively to me. One you can have with others and One discussion has to be Exclusively you and me...and no interference really, that way it will be interesting discussion with you. We can still do that.
You brought out some points...which I also didn't think of. One thing Sadia...I've always believed there is good and bad everywhere. I've seen lot of good in muslims and Islam too. I just think you're one of those. It's very true...the peaceful loving muslims have suffered terribly because of terrorists and some fundamentalists. This is a Universal principle btw for all the religions.
Here are another couple of questions:
1. When Islam forbids alcohol...why is that you see even those Sheiks in Saudi drinking it? Maybe you'll just say they are not muslims.
2. Tell me in short, what Do YOU personally understand by moderate muslims and fundamentalists?
Peace..Sachin:))
We are so much more civilized in the US. We have a modern military industrial complex to do the killing and grab whatever resources we need and a corporate press to spin it with a benevolent theme.
Dr. Sultan is very brave. Yes, we ALL need to move beyond barbarism.
Kamini - I totally understand your not wanting to get into discussions. I feel the same way about many people, including you of course. Anger and ranting is one thing. Dishonesty is another. My "insult" regarding Sado's English was not unfounded. She used her lack of comprehension to mischaraterize what I said. The record is here for all to check. There is no way you can simply call it a frivolous insult on my part without being dishonest. Hope this demonstrates why I pick apart your posts. You do nothing but get personal (see your last two posts) and even that doesn't seem to be enough so you're now stooping to dishonesty. Well, here's some more rope for you . . .
Sachin, spare us your nonsense. You first rave about Divya to Sadia, and her immense debating abilities and knowledge- then when Divya righly takes you to task, for annoying the jeepers out of not just her with your ridiculous jokes on fatwa, which is not a joking manner and your innane banter that is totally without any kind of insight you lash out at her and start sucking up to Sadia. You've done that in the past also. Then now you start ranting at Kavita for asking people to stay on track-where did you see her mention Sadia's name? It was a universal appeal which included jackasses like you..and may be you didnt notice that both Sadia and Arjun started with being mad at Kavita, but I didnt see her talk crap like you-she earned my respect because of the patience she displayed to explain her point of view and I think she has two new friends on the blog because of that.
Your question in that post are ridiculous-whay do arabs drink? There are Catholics who practice birth control, and brahmins who eat meat-duh!
What does a moderate muslim mean? Another duh.and who the hell are you to pompously procalim to Sadia to address only you-if the woman has any intelligence she would not waste time on morons like you.
If you have nothing to say-say nothing.
Don't waste this space..and I saw you proclaiming in another post that you will be leaving soon-do so-and stop polluting this blog with your crap. I don't agree with everything Divya has said but atleast the woman has the guts to stick to her ground and not be wishy washy like you-you should be a politician and not a doc-you'll fit right in.
Sadia, a muslim friend of mine expained to me that one of the reasons four wives were okayed was because after the war many women were left widowed and destitute, and that was the Prophet's way of providing them protection. Is that true?
I can take you to task Matt! But is it worth the time&energy? No! Even though there were some good points but had same rotten perceptions. Nothing, absolutely nothing can be done with the latter! It's Never worth it.
I wanted to make a correction to my statements: Before the Muslims, Gautam Buddha exposed the caste-mired Indian society to the concept of the equality of all men and women through his Buddhism.
S. I. - Before the Buddha, the Upanishads spoke about equality of all humans. Again, these are very slim books, readily available and you can check for yourself. In addition, India has a dominant guru culture and all of these gurus talk about equality and always have been. Also, either you go by what's written in textbooks both for Islam as well as Hinduism. Or you look at the ground reality for both religions. You cannot conveniently give a text book example for Islam and point to the ground reality for Hindus.
Coming to the Buddha. Nowhere does he say he did not believe in caste. He made fun of Brahmin rigidity but that's a different matter altogether. He was very proud to be a Kshatriya and till his dying day was referred to by his caste name, Gautam. Check the Ambatta sutta for one example of his pride in his kshatria-hood. There is no evidence to prove that Buddha was into social reform. Buddhism traveled to Japan and China and became the dominant religion in both those countries without making any change in their sense of social heirarchy. This is visible to this day in Japan. Chinese culture was annihilated by the commies so there may not be any evidence there. If Buddhism was into equality, why would these nations continue to have their hierarchies?
Buddhism was the first (and only) instance of state sponsored religion in India. Ashoka (the god-almighty) send his missionaries all over India. If they were against caste, surely caste would have ceased to exist by now. Remember, Buddhism was the dominant religion of India for a full 1,000 years - until the 7th century when the (equality-minded!) Muslims came and wiped it out. Are you telling me that a thousand years are not enough to get rid of something if the entire nation is for it? Buddhism was created in London and Paris. They produced whatever scholarship they wanted to and we idiots are simply repeating it. Anti-caste rhetoric is solely a western concept - churned out by the departments of Indology who have no clue what they're talking about. The true tragedy is that Indians too get their information from these worthless scholars and simply don't use their eyes or their own experience.
Speaking of scholarship - all of the teachers at the famous buddhist universities of Taxila and Nalanda were Brahmins. Yes, every single one of them. When the Muslim hordes came swooping down on these universites and razed them to the ground, all that was left was one solitary Brahmin with a few scraggly pupils. Do a search for the rout of nalanda - you may come up with something - it is very touching story.
hey everyone,
am quite in a hurry today... still wanted to be a part of the discussion, lest i would have to catch up on loads.
yeah Matt, your friend is quite right. this was one of the reasons... along with many others. and i wanted to add that seems like you have read the comments in parts. i agree that i was pissed off at the topic, but in another of my posts.. i have clarified my point.
coming to you Sachin... i have a question for you... (in case of some families) there are many youngsters whose parents donot allow them to smoke, whereas they smoke??? does this mean, they are not real children of their parents or do they love their parents any less??? obviously, parents have their own reasons to stop their children from smoking... and the children donot get that:))) this is my answer to your question for alcohol...
i will answer the second question tomorrow... have someone else to deal with at the moment.
by the way thanx for being you:))
Also thanx to Kamini:))) I am honoured!!!
as far as Divya is concerned... Have you ever heard the word Sarcasm... I was being sarcastic.
But yeah Sachin in a way you were right... i should not continue discussing things with divya... BECOZ, she is not my class, not my standard... she is a third class citizen who needs to shout to be heard. according to the way she talks, she is definitely not even half as educated as i am... and even if she is, she has definitely not gained any bit from her education. she is a real MORON, who thinks that everyone around her is one. she definitely needs to be outcasted from the society, atleast from the people who have some ettiquettes... or she should learn the basic norms of communication...
I am sorry Kavita for behaving like this but Enough is enough. there has to be some place where one has to put his foot down.
Hi Sadia...I've been on the blogs long enough to know how it works. That's why warned you a couple of times before. Don't take the dirty perceptions too seriously. Their whole Idea is to crack you, not discuss. Once you catch that who's who then you can choose to discuss or not. Look at Kavita..She's one of the best in keeping the discussion clean. She's an example really to follow in that aspect of discussion. But how many Kavitas are there? Handful.
I care a damn about what others think of me. Either way...they think Black of me, so why waste time. I just Be myself. I'm Sweet mostly, so why should I change just because someone perceives it as sucking up. Should I stop being Sweet. My foot! The sun has to rise from the west for that. Anyway...
You could come back whenever you find time Sado, and we can continue with the basic decent norms of communication. One's got right to address anyone exclusively here...don't forget that, and most definitely I would prefer that way when you're talking to me. Yes, you were very clear to my first question...It is the Followers who mess up but not the source. Same with all the religions. Yeah...the second question can take us into little depth as to the why and how of it.
Love..Sachin:))
PS: If at all you find it bitter here at the site. I suggest you..it's not worth spending your time.
Dear Divya,
I was all set to scan the entire blog and cut and paste your statements to illustrate how you lack the emotional intelligence to deal with other people. However I was delighted (because I agree with you on many subjects) to see that you are not as offensive as they perceive you to be. But I will list some of your statements for the sake of argument:
"Sadia – If sentiments are all you can appeal to, you’re out of luck as far as I am concerned. These matters are way too important to allow anyone to hide behind the sentiments bogey. You’ve certainly got a nice long free ride on that one in India, haven’t you."
There is some presumptuousness on your part here. You don't know enough about Sado to make this statement. But all in all, you have been fairly balanced and, unlike what other perceive, you have actually not attacked anyone personally.
However, I don't know if this is how you speak in person when you are engaged in a debate. It is likely to be even more offensive, in person, to those whose statements are called "moronic" or "not researched well" etc, regardless of their merits. We can make the same arguments without such implied insults. I guess Internet becomes impersonalized to such an extent that we tend to forget that there are real warm bodies on the other side of the net. Because of the tone you use, it becomes difficult for readers, especially those who do not agree with you, to take it all in objectively.
I am totally on your side as far as the Quoran is concerned. There are a lot of things that are just plain wrong in that and all other so-called books from God. However, we need to distinguish between the book and the adherents. We need to distinguish between the philosophy of islam and the culture of islam. No matter how much we try, but we will never succeed in changing minds if all we do is just point fingers at them and say how bad they are. Eventually we have to admit that there a lot of people who are following that path, and they are going to remain with us no matter what we think of them. If we have to do what our Dharma tells us (Vasudhaiva Kutumbakkam - entire world is one family), then we have to find ways to work with them and find a middle ground. I don't think your tone will help us find that path.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Dear Sado and Kamini,
There is no point in engaging in slug fights. It just wastes time and doesn't produce any objective results for anyone. Even if you perceive someone to be wrong or offensive, you can always find forgiveness within yourselves. Ignoring those posts could be a very powerful weapon as well. :)
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Dear Ravi - I am acutely aware of my shortcomings. But thanks for your post, I appreciate it. I was thinking of something we had touched upon on this very thread when I claimed that Wafa Sultan should include the crimes of xtianity in her speeches and someone (Anusheh?) responded by saying that WS spoke from experience close to her heart and so could not possibly include something she was not too familiar with. I acknowledged that such an exercise would take away from the gripping authenticity of her speeches. So, I guess what I'm getting at is that either one is fired up about something, in which case the fire comes through, or one does not really care but is here merely to poke around, in which case it is a non-issue. Of course there are a few who have the gift of behaving the way you indicated would be right and proper as well as they are passionate believers in a particular cause.
I don't think this has anything to do with the internet or even anonymity. In my personal life, unfortunately, I am equally fiery. But I've improved. Otherwise, I used to end up trashing my phone from the amount of times I'd slammed it down on people.
Just so you know, my new years resolution this year was to calm down. I guess I'm flunking it. But I was actually looking at this in exactly the analytical way you have described. If my purpose is to get a certain message across it would be way more effective if I did it in a manner that was inoffensive. You have no idea how aware I am of this, and how easy it is to lose track of it. That is why I laugh at people who go around saying how they are in control of their destinies, etc. etc.
I disagree with the example you give of presumptuousness on my part.
["Sadia – If sentiments are all you can appeal to, you’re out of luck as far as I am concerned. These matters are way too important to allow anyone to hide behind the sentiments bogey. You’ve certainly got a nice long free ride on that one in India, haven’t you."]
You say: There is some presumptuousness on your part here. You don't know enough about Sado to make this statement.
I do not need to know anything about Sado in order to make such a statement. She said that I ought to be respecting Muslim sentiments. I replied that I don't care two hoots about sentiments and that Muslims have gotten a nice free ride on sentiments for the longest time. This is a generic fact and has nothing to do with any particular individual.
I agree with and appreciate all of your other observations and am glad you expressed them.
Sado writes:
"But yeah Sachin in a way you were right... i should not continue discussing things with divya... BECOZ, she is not my class, not my standard... she is a third class citizen who needs to shout to be heard."
Dear Sado,
In my opinion, the foregoing words are highly offensive and uncalled for, if, as you imply, you are a first-class citizen. Such comments do not usually come from the higher classes. I think they are pretty classless, to say the least.
I think that Divya reasons relatively well on most issues and has a general tendency to be blunt which can be perceived as offensive by some. But being blunt is not an unacceptable form of debate. For example, when she alluded to the poor quality of your English, was she wrong? For someone of your (purported) level of education, most will concur, you are expected to write a higher standard of English.
Have a nice evening, everybody!
extremely disturbing news report.
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
KABUL, Afghanistan - Senior Muslim clerics demanded Thursday that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."
ADVERTISEMENT
In an unusual move, Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under
Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.
His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.
"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.
The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry.
President Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects the country to "honor the universal principle of freedom."
Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.
"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said. "They are a sovereign country."
Still, Rice's direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country is an unusual move.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.
"I have the impression that he (Karzai) has a firm willingness" to abide by the human rights requirements, Merkel said going into pre-
European Union summit talks. "I hope we will be able to resolve this."
Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.
But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.
"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque.
"The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."
Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, agreed. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."
"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."
He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.
But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."
The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.
"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."
Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.
Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "there will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.
"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."
Meanwhile, human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience."
"The charges against him should be dropped and if necessary he should be protected against any abuses within the community," the London-based group said in a statement.
Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.
It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial will resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.
Its been a long day-and I have another interview coming up, but just had to say...
Sadia, you are new to the blog as is Kamini-I hope both of you will acquaint us with the UK you know. Both of you bring fun and positive energy to the blog, but I have to remind you as I remind myself that no one should take things personally because none of us really knows the other well enough to say-yeah he/she knows me and is being mean deliberately.
All of us have our own styles of addressing issues-and because we dont see the other person's body language, so we stand a risk of misinterpretation. Plus I think many of us dont stop to absorb what the other person has said and respond right away. I often write on the run or doing several things together, and have at times written something that was misinterpretd as a result.
I dont think I need to defend Divya, but I have to admit I quite like her, because I have never felt that she is malicious or mean spirited when she writes something no matter however hard hitting it may be. Like Matt and many others there have been times I havent agreed with her and she with me, but the fact remains that she makes me think.
Yeah you are slipping a bit Divya :) but I think you are doing a lot better than last year..and as you said in context of the ram/sita query, and may I add here-what's a blog without some drama either!
Kamini, you know I love your writing-I have published your piece this month. I hope you will take what you need to take from here and leave the rest behing and not get bogged down by what really shouldnt matter in the first place. Blogging can be very exhausting business once you are here for some time
Sadia, there is no need to apologise to me, and again the same request to you..there is so much to learn from each other and I am going to sit and read through all the comments over the weekend and think some more..I'm sure you are going to teach us all a few things here.
Sachin, thank you for being gracious and taking Matt's comments in the right spirit without adding to it. It takes a lot of class to walk away even when you want to hit back.
Matt, I think your points are worth thinking about, and Sachin did just that.
I have to say at the end of the day I dont want anyone to live in la la land..I rather have hard hitting, knowledge backed debates anytime, over people gushing at each other..but if we can stick to the debates and discussions and set this blog on fire with our knowledge and research, and also manage to learn, it would be quite a ride!
Sadia and Andaleeb, what comments do you have on Matt's post? Is it true that the Qu'ran forbids a person to leave Islam under penalty of death?
Divya,
You're entertaining, I'll give you that! Just one point though, I'm not a dishonest person at all-infact the opposite. Now that's one of your quips which I will not accept. You can call me any name under the sun etc, but not that. You need to calm down Divya. If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it. I think in your post to Ravi Kulkarni, you admit that you get angry etc. We all do-but this is a disussion forum, where people are going to disagree and not necessarily like someone else's point of view. So what?? The world is made up of different people, that's the beauty of it. We are all here in my opinion, because we want to express opinions about certain topics/issues, enjoy debating and actually want to learn something from others (I do). So let people learn and don't trash them because they disagree with you. This has got personal which was never my intention-as it makes us all come across as petty. So let's drop it now-as Ravi Kulkarni says, it doesn't help anyone or anything.
I look forward to our next ranting session on another topic. Kavita thanks. Infact I've written another humourous piece which I will be sending you shortly. I thoroughly enjoy this blog experience. Sado-keep the faith (in all essence of the word) It takes courage to stand up for what you believe in and yourself-many people are too afraid to do this in life! My philosophy is that there is nothing or no-one to be afraid of in life, only ourselves ultimately.
I have to admit this blog experience does teach you how to argue your point of view in a discussion and how not to argue your point of view, which is always a good lesson to learn.
Kamini
Dear Divya,
"Just so you know, my new years resolution this year was to calm down. I guess I'm flunking it."
I remember you told us this earlier and also how exactly you were trying to implement it with a photograph next to the comp, and brought a smile to my face - albeit a nostalgic one. You had already started succeeding in your endeavour before you told us. I'm glad you do slip now and again, because in some strange way I also miss the old straight talking, honest to goodness fire-brand, may your tribe increase!
I don't really know a sausage about you personally, but I am almost certain that under that fiery exterior there is also a very intelligent, compassionate, soft at heart human being who loves to laugh at life and herself.
"However, we need to distinguish between the book and the adherents. We need to distinguish between the philosophy of islam and the culture of islam" - what a generosity!
" Eventually we have to admit that there a lot of people who are following that path, and they are going to remain with us no matter what we think of them "- what a megalomania!
Kavita and Dara: Ditto again, Babies"--or more precisely, to my Sistern and Brethren whom I much adore as siblings, fashioned forth by that most-unspeakably creative Spirit/Soul/Heart/Mind of our parents--our Mother/Father God--or as another "Sistren" put it so simply--in the way of the K.I.S.S of life (Keep It Simply and Sweet)--"
The Force!"
And if anybody is too insulted at how much I tease Norm (well, he's an idiot--rumor has it, he's related to George), my teasing is, in truth, a directly proportional to just exactly how much I respect this man (but don't dare tell that hopelessly-deluded Republican clod about this personal truth; he'll get even more confused and withdraw further from us--and we can't afford to let the "village idiot" lose the perpetual happiness that comes from his innocently-naive imbecile-level IQ; that's "why" he's a Bush-Republican, they share a common perception of the world--so "shush" about our private conversation herein, about Norm's....ahh..."deficiency" of genetics--"mumms the word"--go easy on Norm!) Dave
Okay guys - PEACE - OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI!
Special thanks to AJ, Matt, Cherry, Dara and David for rescuing me from the total tarring and feathering. Just so you guys know, in the cyberworld of internet exchanges, a discussion is not said to have deteriorated until the first Hitler or Nazi analogy pops up. We didn't really get there, so this wasn't that bad after all. Just kidding. We've got to try and do better. As Kamini points out, we're all in this to learn something so why thrash around uselessly. Dara, the photo technique doesn't work anymore. I've gotten used to it and it feels just like a photo now. Any alternatives?
Kavita...It's good to see that you are understanding me better and what I'm saying in the discussion. Other contributors are struggling to get into double figures with responses and you've scored a Double century! And you still want to beat SRK in the no: game eh? Quality matters! Not quantity! Common saying, but not many follow it. Fortunately...this thread Had quality! It's perhaps the best blog of yours both in quality and quantity. It's very easy actually for the contributors to make good in the no: game, they just have to get such sensitive volatile topics and they will get their no:s. My Opinion: Of late many of the good contributors have disappeared. That Section sucks! I wish Mallika keeps reminding some of the brilliant ones.
Knowledge research and learn Ride Hmm?...You can sit on the rear seat and I'll take you for a good Ride.
Would be nice if Sadia finds time and comes back for the debate...but I'm myself not sure if this is a good enough site for her to discuss and debate with the basic level being maintained.
Truly..Sachin
Wow, I never read this guy before but I guess we get our ideas from the same place. Just found this on HuffPo and have read the article thoug still have to go through the 71 comments which I totally intend to do. Curious to see if he get's flamed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/no-tolerance-for-islam_b_17807.html
Divya, you are obviously an highly intolerant Islamophobic bigot. HuffingtonPost, JihadWatch and all those sites are just making hay out of the current wave of Islamophobia, emphasizing the negatives, ignoring the vast majority of people in the Islamic world who're normal, happy, peaceful human beings. Basically, only the ones that make the loudest noise make it onto TV and media.
So Afghanistan and maybe the Qur'an has laws preventing conversion out of Islam. How is that different from what happens in India when dalits try to convert to Christianity. Do I have to mention the missionaries that are killed, and the converts that face persecution at the hands of the VHP/RSS/BJP combine? The Christian converts and the clergy are constantly hounded and not allowed to live in peace. Do I have to mention the "shuddhi" ceremonies where thousands of newly Christian tribals are forcibly "converted" to Hinduism? You should be more objective.
And it's not just informal persecution either. Today, states actually have anti-conversion laws that prevent poor low-caste untouchables from escaping their sad fates by converting to other religions. Would you Divya, say we should do something about that before jumping up and down about Afghanistan?
I looked at some of the comments on that post-I guess as many voices and as many opinions and bashing as well-what's new or enlightening about that. Its interesting that when my father was posted to Afghanistan as military attache, he tells us the country was very liberal-women were encouraged to go for higher education and not wear the hijab. The king and one of the Presidents after him Daoud, I think were very liberal. Mom actually got all the military attaches' wives and the high ups in the govt to keep karva chauth(a fast where the woman doesnt eat or drink till the moon comes out to honor her husband), with her. They happily did so. While India and Pakistan were busy barking at each other, mom's closest friend was the Pakistani Military attache's wife-the culture is so similar they were naturally drawn together.
Things changed when the clerics took over -I guess the same thing happened in Iran.
So is it Islam or the way Islam is interpreted by those who become the symbolic religious leaders, that is to blame?
The same applies to any other religion I guess.
Any thoughts?
Sachin,thanks-the dig at Shahrukh was all in fun, Having met him enough times, I wish he would write more-he is a genuinely good person with a really witty and bright take on things.
Kamini look forward to your new article.
Thanks everyone.
Secular Indian - You have no idea what you're talking about. Huffington Post is a liberal site. Liberals are in the business of calling everyone else bigots. If even a liberal site carries such a story you can imagine how mainstream these ideas are becoming.
And as usual you miss the point. The article addresses ideologies not people. There's no need to drag in redundant comments about peace-loving people. And stop calling me names. You Brahmin-wannabe ass-wiping loser. You closet supremacist. Stick to polishing your masters shoes. I've let your hatred slide for the past couple of days but no more. Name calling is not going to be your prerogative alone.
Your comparison of Christian conversion tactics with hindu shuddi ceremonies is an outright falsification of the truth. For every penny hindus put into the cause Christianty spends million dollars. For every person a hindu kills, christians kill a hundred thousand, if not a million. Learn to be objective you outright lying, cheating, dishonest, bigot, hater who cant tell his elbow from his ass.
And get some perspective while your're at it. Are you seriously incapable of seeing the difference between executing a person for his beliefs and anti-conversion laws. They are an absolute necessity in order to deal with Christian fanatics. Even the Buddhists in Thailand and Sri-Lanka have called for them. There's no stopping the xitan cancer otherwise. Or did you think that by shouting the loudest and repeating your nonsense enough times you'd get people to believe you, Brahmin wannbe pretender that you are.
Kavita..I understood your humor. Did you understand mine? You don't have the courtesy sometimes to answer questions. SRK? I wasn't a fan of his before ddlj 1995. From then on...I've been watching him. He truly is the King of Romance! Not only that...he's amazing insights(someone for a bollywood hero) on certain subjects.
Your question about the Islam. I'm sure you just asked for the sake of discussion and not for yourself. I'm sure you know the answer. It's Very basic! But that's exactly where the world has gone wrong. I don't mean to say everything in the scriptures is flawless...but the way Interpretations have been and are made according to their convenience is mind boggling, you wonder how low can the human minds stoop. If at all as a curious mind reader, you want to study the human minds.."how religion is followed" is one of the best topic to choose. Applies to each and every religion. The degree and the intensity varies, that's all.
Truly..Sachin
I'll address the namecalling later. Getting to the points:
>For every person a hindu kills, christians kill a
>hundred thousand, if not a million.
What *are* you talking about?
You're somewhat right about the Huffington Post site (not about the other sites), but there are quite a few bigoted articles on there, hardly liberal.
I suggest you read the following article:
Why Cenk is wrong
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/why-cenk-is-wrong-let_b_17819.html
About the name-calling:
Whoa, whoa, Divya, the language on you.
Do you deny that you are an Islamophobic bigot?
I *do* deny all the ridiculous names you've called me.
If at all as a curious mind reader, you want to study the human minds.."how religion is followed" is one of the best topic to choose. Applies to each and every religion. The degree and the intensity varies, that's all.
Very good point. Scriptures may say one thing. What we end up with is bride-burning, widow-assaulting and caste-based persecution. Things that are crying for a cleanup.
Secular Imbecile - I did read that article when I went back to read the comments on the Cenk article. It wasn't there the first time otherwise I would have posted it too. Read the comments on both of them though and you'll see what I mean.
Oh yeah, when you have to hear the name calling you're all whoa. How convenient. It's not for you to deny the names, they're simply a matter of opinion you turnip. You cannot deny my opinion of you, you blind bat, who supports stoning women to death, and beheading people for believeing in the wrong god and wants the world to believe that that's not bigotry but condeming such practices is.
You cannot deny my opinion of you, you blind bat, who supports stoning women to death, and beheading people for believeing in the wrong god and wants the world to believe that that's not bigotry but condeming such practices is.
I agree with Kavita's assessment that the fact is that some extremists and clerics have hijacked Islam, which is a religion of peace, kindness and tolerance, and are misleading the Muslims. In no way do I support them. But in the same way, I feel there's much to do in our own religion.
Shouldn't we concentrate on fixing things at home before denigrating situations in other places? I feel we should better ourselves and our society first before judging others. They should be allowed to fight their own battles against such barbarisms as you mention.
"I agree with Kavita's assessment . . . "
There's a hole in the bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa.
Read what Dr. Wafa Sultan has to say. She does not agree with the two of you.
Wafa Sultan's comment
"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."
I find this comment very interesting. Is it because Islam is barbaric or is it so because of the mind set of the Islamic clerics, and if it is Islam why did the Islamic nations become more liberal minded when not ruled by the Khomenis of the world?
It will be interesting to see how everyone who has written here will interpret this.
Divya I havent read the Koran and cannot comment with your expertise..but as I said earlier I prefer to see what is before me today and ask my questions. I would love to get a good english translation of the Koran and study it. Any suggestions? I remember you had recommended another translation when someone had gifted me a set of vedic translations.
Have to run..will be back late but plan to sit and read through all the comments again if I can over the weekend which is full of out of town visitors and event coverage.
Wow Kavita...Looks like you will score a triple century like Sehwag, at this rate. What a topic you chose for Blog! My God!
After reading your last post, I myself went into deep thinking. It is almost like a GRE test now....reading comprehension and logical analysis. When I re-read Sultan's post, Suddenly 3-4 tracks opened up for me to think deeply on it. I liked the logical sequence you used in your last post. There could be angles again to that. Also....what she is saying there is the battle amongst the muslims. But you can't deny that there is a Clash of cultures in this world. It is Staring at us! Perhaps to emphasize...the Inner conflict the muslim community is undergoing, she must have said that.
There was one point from Sultan...where she says
"The clerics have distorted Koran for the last 14 centuries". That's a gem and a Classic common factor in religions. I wonder how many of them really think that Islam as a whole Inherently is corrupted? My God...I cannot think of that, but knowing human mind's hatred and narrowmindedness, I shouldn't be surprised.
Kavita...got to tell you this. I thought it would just be a routine round of responses and talk of the religious conflicts..when I first read your blog. Now, I'm myself getting a chance to read other people's minds a little more deeply and am finding myself surprised. It's always fascinating and a never ending process of learning to study other minds(after you've studied your own in depth i.e)LOL!!! So much to Unravel in life Kavita! Isn't it?
Truly..Sachin
Sachin, very good comments in the your last two posts. I'm enjoying your posts as I am everyone else's.
Kavita, no offense to Divya, but she is hardly the person you should be asking for a good translation of the Qur'an! And you know why as much as I do. She is likely to recommend a version that brainwashes you into Islamophobia.
Andaleeb or Saadia should suggest English translations they recommend that stay true to the Qur'an and Islam.
All three of us who are still not infected by the rabid hatred for Islam around here should read this translation. I promise I'll read it this very weekend if someone can recommend one. That should settle the matter and defeat the bigots posting here.
SI....I think way up in the thread I confessed openly what I thought of you, to be specific your posts to me. Terrific! It's been a long time, friend...that I saw someone criticising his/her own thing(whatever that is). I told you in that post itself...if the world has to reach that stage of spirituality...then each one has to be the harshest Self critic first and move into higher patterns.
I can make out that genuinity as I came to reading your last posts...where I thought it was clear indication that you were a born and raised hindu(I cud still be wrong). It takes courage buddy, to criticise our own and then support the most anti to ours. When you eliminate the bias totally where you're able to See the Bright side to it...which most def exists in any religion for that matter...then you can do what you did.
SI....these changes which you are talking about will never never happen thru' Imposing or forceful discussions, when both are blazing guns from opposite ends. It will happen only thru' within or when two people or more sit and decide ok...go ahead with your logic and perspecs, I'll carefully examine and then see. It's not a child's play to reach that level of discussion. Most of the sites are in Emotional bashing. At the end of the day...the hurts get even deeper, leave aside the thought of healing. Why do think the world is as it is now?
These two people Dr.Chopra and Dalai lama talk great about that change...how it is possible and how not.
Truly..Sachin
Sachin, yes, yes & yes. Very thoughtful post. I agree. I will be more humble in my posts to Divya rather than calling her out. I hope she gets to see things from a different perspective.
Kavita & Sachin, here's a link to what seems like a genuine translation of the Qur'an:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM
That website has translations by Westerners too, but I feel the one above might be the most genuine and free of agenda.
Dear Secular Indian,
I am quoting two verses from Chapter 4 (Women):
15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
16. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Do you see anything wrong here? Or is the translation/interpretation somehow deficient. I will write a more detailed response to your comments a little later.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
I have not read Quran in english...the sad part about islam is that the umaayyids khaleefa have denigrated prophet muhammad to no end.
I'm including a link i hope it works...it is about a book written by Ali Tejani "Ask those who know"...It questions hadith written in the islamic books which indulge in character assaisnation of prophet mohammad and he has questioned its authenticity.
I will include the number of Al-Khoei center in NY which has a list of quran which is translated in english
The other book i like is Nahjul Balagha by Ali ibne abitalib
http://www.al-islam.org/ask/
I hope this helps...if anyone is really interested.
Secondly,I've heard a lot on the blog about prophet breaking pagan's idol in Kabaa.Kabaa was always under the control of abdul mutaalib he had the keys of Kaaba.Kaabaa was orignally build by prophet abraham and had no idols in it.In islam the concept of GOD /Allah is in the form of energy..which is not created from anything..it is not born from anyone and it doesnot give birth to anyone.It has no hands or eyes....it is a very complex concept.
This is what a muslim should believe regarding Allah.Muslim writers have already done enough damage to islam...if any one reads chapter wise "ASk who know" can find specific quoted texts that how ummayeed's khaleefa have written false hadiths....
If anyone has time to read they can read...AS i am also reading about Quran and my religion.AS i am a shite muslim i strongly believe in Ahle- bait and imamat.I love my religion because i was raised with this belief that i should not hurt anyone with any of my action or my words.I should be thankful to Allah for being blessed that i am born with all the body parts. I should respect each and every religion because it is path to one God.I was given equal opportunity like my brother.I never felt oppressed or suppressed so i never read or questioned about my religion.
I don't feel i will ever feel disgusted by Islam.I love all my Ahle-Baits(referred as 14 infallibles) and their life teaches me valuable lessons.
I hope this helps...
Ravi, if the Qur'an and Islam are interpreted literally and are as blatantly discriminatory as you quote, why would millions upon millions of the world's women not only be willing but fiercely-proud Muslims? It doesn't make sense. Surely we're missing something.
S.I. I just got back, and read through the comments.
Firstly thank you for that link. When I asked any suggestions-I asked everyone here. Sorry was running out so it came in one line- it was addressed to everyone Divya included. I'm also going to ask my brother. I like to believe that people are honorable and have integrity until they prove otherwise. I will not presume that just because Divya feels a certain way about a certain religion tnat she will deliberately go looking for a translation just to have the last word or act maliciously. It's just not her. Also while I take suggestions from people, I do my own research, and my brother is one major source for me. He is travelling right now.
Let me also say, I have far too many Muslim friends who are amazing people and many Hindu friends who are jerks and close minded, for me to attribute anyone's attitude to life to their religious upbringing. My brother was once stoned by some Hindus in Jammu because he walks around in plains clothes when he was commissioner because they thought he was a muslim.
But you must also remember that any one of us , if we want to believe something will continue to believe it, no matter how much evidence you provide to the contrary, and no matter how much you appeal to their better sense.
It applies to anyone who is guilty of being narrow minded and unreasonable-but how do we judge that? I may seem narrow minded to one person and liberal to another. Its all relative.
What Ravi has provided is extremely negative from our perspective-but you ask ayatollah Khomeini and he would have told you-its the right thing.
I'm sure the practice of Sati which is condemned now conitnued then because it was accepted in society then.I guess I have been shouting myself hoarse saying why do we make the past a barometer for the present and why do we take what is obsolete and still stick to it, in any walk of life? And that is what Wafa Sultan is asking as well.
I only wish that we could have these dialogues peacefully.
Sachin, you are the one hitting all the sixers..you have come up with some excellent points and I really think this has become such a great discussion because of stellar inputs from everyone.
Ravi, I really don't resonate with the examples. Remembering that wonderful article I published on forgiveness by you, I wish you could lead some discussion on the solution.
Btw every one-what do your muslim friends think of wafa sultan? I'm curious. Mine are sympathetic mostly, but there are some who have ripped her Jewish analogy to shreds.
Ravi,
I checked my Quran with Urdu translation this is "Suarh Nisa"...It uses the word repentence in context of both man and woman.It says if they repent leave them alone.
Ravi,
You have raised a powerful point. Nice to have scholars like you contributing so brilliantly. Wow!
I am quoting two verses from Chapter 4 (Women):
15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
16. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Do you see anything wrong here? Or is the translation/interpretation somehow deficient. I will write a more detailed response to your comments a little later.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Posted by: Ravi Kulkarni at March 24, 2006 04:20 PM
Andaleeb thank you.
Thank you Andaleeb. As I suspected, that translation that Ravi quoted wasn't quite right. Could you recommend a good translation. If not English, do you know one in Hindi? Even Urdu in Indian script will do.
Ravi,
Show the evidence, irrefutably!
Regards.
AJ.
Dear Secular Indian,
The quote was from the source you had listed:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM
I did some more research for online versions of Quoran and here are the results:
Quote:
[4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
[4.16] And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Source:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839
Quote:
"4.15": And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
"4.16": And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Source: http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html
Quote:
15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
16. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Source: http://www.arab2.com/quran/
I can go on and on. If you somebody finds a more humane and unbiased translation please post it.
SI and Kavita this is the best translation i found on the internet...which is closest to my urdu version.
I am trying to cut and paste these two ayats...infact the Ayat # 16 doesnot even mention 2 men...but it says two...either man or woman.I found it very interesting...
Thanks Kavita for helping me see my faith in new light.I will always be indebted to you for doing my own research and let me find my own truth...
15. "And as for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you (Muslims) against them; then if they bear witness (to the fact), confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah makes some way for them."
Commentary:
The punishment of filthy women who have husband and are polluted with lewdness is pointed out in the above verse, where it says:
"And as for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you (Muslims) against them..."
Then, the verse continues saying:
"... then if they bear witness (to the fact), confine them to the houses until death takes them away ..."
Thus, the punishment of lewdness for the women who have husband has been assigned 'life imprisonment' in this verse.
But, immediately after that, it says:
"... or Allah makes some way for them."
From the above mentioned sense, it is understood that this ordinance had been a temporary ordinance,
*************************
َﻥﺍَﺬَّﻠﻟﺍَﻭ ْﺍﻮُﺿِﺮْﻋَﺄَﻓ ﺎَﺤَﻠْﺻَﺃَﻭ ﺎَﺑﺎَﺗ ﻥِﺈَﻓ ﺎَﻤُﻫﻭُﺫﺂَﻓ ْﻢُﻜﻨِﻣ ﺎَﻬِﻧﺎَﻴِﺗْﺄَﻳ ﺎًﻤﻴِﺣَّﺭ ﺎًﺑﺍَّﻮَﺗ َﻥﺎَﻛ َﻪّﻠﻟﺍ َّﻥِﺇ ﺎَﻤُﻬْﻨَﻋ{16}
(this is verse 16,where ravi quotes as two men) "And when two of you commit it (lewdness) punish them both, but if they repent and amend, then turn aside from them. Verily Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."
Commentary:
In this verse the ordinance of fornication is stated. It indicates that the man and woman, who have not spouses and commit this indecent action, lewdness, both must be punished. It says:
"And when two of you commit it (lewdness) punish them both..."
The punishment mentioned in this verse is a general punishment,
At the bottom of the verse, it points to the matter of repentance and forgiveness about these kinds of sinners, and says:
"... but if they repent and amend, then turn aside from them. Verily Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."
In the meantime, it is understood from this ordinance that the persons who have repented of their faults should never be blamed for their former sins.
I will post the link of this Quranic commentary and translation for you SI.This website has tonnes of islamic book translated but you specifically want quran translation which is under the heading
"Enlightening Commentary into the light of the Holy Qur'an - Volume 1 by by Ayatullah Sayyid Kamal Faqih Imani and a group of Muslim" These have all the volumes
http://al-islam.org/enlighteningv3/
Dear Kavita,
I am addressing you because after all you started this blog. And let me apologize if I have disappointed you when I posted those quotes from the link that Secular Indian provided. Perhaps an explanation is needed here.
I believe, like Divya, that Quoran has no redeeming features. To be fair, I believe all books that have purportedly come from God have no redeeming features, irrespective of their background. I make this assertion not because these books don't have any good in them, some of them do, and perhaps even Quoran does. However, I take offence at the arrogance of the authors of these books for claiming that they know what is good for all of humanity for all of the time to come. There can't be any such book for the simple reason that morality is a human concept. Man at first turned to God only to find answers to unanswerable questions. Unfortunately that concept was hijacked later on by organized religions and the agents of God took over all of the human affairs, Quoran being extremely so.
I have great respect for muslims, their contributions to India have been many. You just have to look at architecture, music, poetry (gazals), language (Urdu) and so many other fields. No doubt they have also committed atrocities, but some of the others have committed much worse. Every religion, including so-called peaceful ones like Hinduism and Buddhism have committed murders at one time or the other. If there is a difference it is only a matter of degree.
People often say, don't blame Islam for the ills committed by a few terrorists. I like to say don't blame the poor people when the fault clearly lies in their book itself. If anything muslims have been the victims of a perfect fraud committed fourteen hundred years ago. To their credit, not all of them follow Quoran blindly; they use their common sense and just plain human decency. Notice that whenever they have tried to adhere to Quoran in toto, they have failed miserably as a community. It is not a co-incidence. If you haven't read Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses, I suggest you do, not as an authentic source of Islamic wisdom or even as a literary pearl, but to learn what could plausibly have happened then. It is hilarious and at the same time tragic.
Whenever they have broadened their minds and opened their eyes, they have done exceedingly well. Just look at the earlier part of the second millennium. Then debates were encouraged, and people were allowed to question. Their downfall started, the moment they started suppressing dissenting voices. Look at all those countries where any kind of thinking other than Quoranic thinking is discouraged; it is not a pretty sight.
To reiterate what I have always said, there are good people and bad people in every community. If muslims deserve anything, it is not scorn, it is not fear, it is sympathy. Even educated people, like those who have written on this blog, are not entirely conversant with original Quoran because it was written in the medieval Arabic and most of the muslims don't even speak Arabic.
There are many self serving arguments put forth by so-called Islamic scholars, but if you put them to the test of logic they don't stand a chance. I have been engaging in such debates for a long time now (since early 90s to be precise). So it is nothing new. Even Quoran is full of exceptions for Muhammad himself. I don't know what can possibly justify marrying a nine year old girl or asking your foster son to divorce his wife, so Muhammad could marry her. If you don't believe me, please google Muhammad's wives (12 of them in all). A book that was written for all of the humanity and for all of the time, couldn't possibly spend so much time making exceptions for Muhammad. There is something rotten here.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Dear Andaleeb,
Thank you for taking time to find the "correct" interpretation of verse I quoted. The purpose behind my quoting those verses was certainly not to denigrate muslims; I was just showing Secular Indian from his own source, what he was dealing with. Given that majority of the muslims don't read or speak Arabic, given that most of the translations of Quoran are of such dubious nature, I believe there is much scope for misunderstanding. This is just the reality.
I am sorry if I offend you in anyway, I am not saying you are a bad person or I am not even questioning your faith. We all need some faith, otherwise it is impossible to function. But I sincerely believe that Quoran is seriously flawed, and needs to re-interpreted with an objective mind, and accept those which are good and reject those that are not. I will say this about all religious books, including Geeta.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Just another note. I posted some more versions of the same verses from different sources on the internet before I posted the one addressed to Kavita. It is still pending approval from the moderators for some reason. The sequence of my posts is important, thus the clarification.
Regards,
Ravi
Much as i like the discussion and do agree in parts with all the writers including Ravi.Ravi your last post very aptly describes what ails the community.I still maintain that "Ask who know "sheds some important life on prophet's life.I do believe in his message of peace and piety.My this belief is my faith.I will always see things from my perspective and non - muslims will see things objectively from their prespective.
Illiteracy and narrow thinking has confined muslims and the religion which came to set them free and was based on equality devised the downfall of muslims...
I rest my case now...as always a good discussion.
Every one have a great weekend...
Ravi,
I think we are posting at the same time.Your messages have not offended me .It was a very interesting discussion.I value each and every opinion because it helps me re-evaluate my truth.
Life is a learning experience and from each discussion we should be able to take something constructive and bring some positive change in our life.
I hope i have not offended you in anyway....
Enjoy your weekend.
Andaleeb & Ravi,
Ravi you have stated exactly what I feel about interpreting religious books. As far as possible, I try to keep away from commenting on quotations or discussions pertaining to any religious book which is a translation or interpretation.
Andaleeb, as far as the Koran is concerned, I wonder if there is any one source which is universally accepted as an authority on translating the original? One reason I have not even attempted a reading of it is because I believe there are over 10,000 verses in the Koran and before I really attempt to understand the enormity of it I would like to be sure that it is an authentic version. None of my friends have given me a clear cut answer, they have made sugestions and even here there have been differences of opinion.
In fact I think this is a problem pertaining to many religious texts. Specially when the original itself is a rendering of what has been revealed to one and then been written out by a person who was not the original recipient of what was revealed. I am more inclined to agree with Thomas Paine's description of such texts as hearsay in his "Age of Reason".
Thank you Ravi, for taking the time to address me in such a thoughtful post. I was right about you-you have the touch of a healer, and you are a thinking man. You know I had said in more than one of my posts that I dont focus on scriptures but react to what I see before me. After reading your post I think that must be one of the smartest things I've done in the light of what you've written. It also brings me to Anusheh's earlier post-we dont know who has written the books in any religion. Look at the number of translations available.
I think I will continue to take what resonates with me and leave the rest behind.
Andaleeb and Dara, thank you for your posts. Both had me nodding my head in assent.
Again, as I said atleast in my case when I sit down to think there is a little voice inside, my jiminy cricket, which doesnt belong to any religius group, that tells me what is right, and when I really listen I do the right thing. I stumble only when I suppress that inner voice.
I have out of town guests coming today and wont be on the blog much.
But please keep the dialogue going, because it has made us all delve deep within ourselves and even take a look at ourselves and what we believe in.
Ravi,
you said
"I believe, like Divya, that Quoran has no redeeming features." I think the impression everyone has here is that Divya thinks Islam has no redeeming features. You may be putting words in her mouth.
I think had she said what you've said, she would not have been dragged through fire on this blog.
I personally admire Kavita's style of thinking and the grace with which she conveys what she thinks. I have read all of her blogs, and saw how some people have tried to bring her down, and how in the end they have had to leave themselves.
Having said that I would like people to address the historical facts Divya has put forward in her posts and comment on them and not lash out at her just because she shoots from the hip-a bit too soon at times:) but I think as Kavita said I rather have some one who is a straight shooter, who gets into hot water but gets people to think.
Kavita does the same thing but not all of us can emulate her style and her grace.
Sachin, bro-you redeemed yourself in my eyes. Very intelligent points..may be I made you think too eh?
Dara,
Unfortunately there is no one source...I have to struggle to find a decent english translation which corresponds to my urdu translation...I do agree with your thoughts and Thomas Paine words do make sense. There is so much out there and what is the real truth what is not.Religion is always used to control the masses.Quran was always in Arabic and people learned to read it but not really understand it.Instead of questioning the merit of their own learning people went to so- called religious leader to decipher the quran.
In delhi jama masjid imam bukhari was always politically motivated and controlled the masses with his instigating speeches..The mullahs always found a way to decipher the word of quran in their own way.Keep your woman safe became lock them in the house...or if anyone go by Saudi Arabia standards..then woman should not even walk alone or drive a car.Absolutely ridiculos nonsense.
These so called islamic countries are more so responsible for this condition of islam.
Quran was always in Arabic and people learned to read it but not really understanding it...
Dara I do not have an answer which translation is relevant which is not...whats true ...what appears to be true.What is the right path....
This is my weekend off from work and have a big exam on monday...so i'll not be as active but will contribute after monday...
Two points:
Love, peace and piety are universal messages. My grandmother believed in them and she did not consult the bible, quran or gita before she talked about them. Sesame Street can teach you about love and goodness, your illiterate gardner can do the same, as can your school-teacher, brother, uncle, neighbor, friend, story book, movie, or any number of things. Religion is something that capitalizes on these things. After all, love and piety existed before Islam and Christianity. These religions have simply created a God, said that love and peace are his messages, and by the way if you don't believe in all of this other crap you shall die. It is insanity to believe that human love and goodness are a product of religion.
Secondly, it's all very well to nitpick on verses and their interpretations and what personal message you take from them, but the fact of the matter is that what counts is how the mullahs interpret them. A woman is stoned to death for adultery and often on trumped up charges of adultery. A pit is dug in the ground and she is made to stand in it, a crowd is assembled, and the first stone is thrown by her closest relative. There have been cases where children as small as 9 years old (sons of the woman) have been made to throw the first stone. Please picuture this scene which is not a relic of the past but is very much present in current Islamic society and then say whether Wafa Sultan was right in rejecting this ideology or not.
In Iran a young 16 year old girl was hanged because she dared to open one of her shirt buttons. If you see the movie The Circle you will get an idea of the oppressiion that women are faced with in Iran and how they are routinely thrown into jail and the whim of men.
Whatever the problems with hindu society at least the laws are against social injustice. In Islamic society even the laws are for stoning and beheading and illiteracy.
It is beside the point to come up with arguments like "I know many good muslims." On the one hand people say they don't distinguish on the basis of religion and on the other hand they spout nonense like this all the time. Kavita Chibber is of course the queen of such discourse. Muslims would be good without Islam as well and are good in spite of Islam. Just as Buddhists can be violent in spite of Buddhism. But we need to look at the effect of ideology on society as a whole. While the Dalai Lama is giving long lectures on ahimsa the Buddhists have been ousted from their land and are stuck twiddling their thumbs for 60 years. Similarly, Islamic nations are rotting, not just at the core but all round. How can you not fault the ideology that is dragging them down. This I know many good muslims argument is basically to make it sound like I'm such a nice person while you're a bad person. Religion should not be made an issue of identity unless it is absolutely relavent. Otherwise I can turn right around and say that all of you make statements such as this are discriminating bigots.
Divya,
interestingly my lady, you have spent the first several lines of your post saying what Kavita has said throughout the blog and elsewhere..that people are good or bad irrespective of their religion.
I will anoint you Queen instead.
What many people do here is show us all a mirror, you included-and sometimes we lash out at others because we dont like what we see in the mirror.
well I'm out kayaking this weekend at a river-so this is my last post over dregs of coffee-enjoy your weekend.
Andaleeb, thanks for your pointers and info about the Qur'an.
Ravi, your's was a VERY enlightening and thoughtful post. I find myself strongly drawn towards your viewpoint.
Lots to chew on. Have a good weekend, friends!
Matt - my last post was in response to Andaleeb's statement that she believes in the message of love and piety taught by Islam. It was meant to show that love and piety have nothing to do religion. This is a differnt point from the one you are trying to indicate. If you must act sarcastic and find fault please make sure you understand what you are attacking.
The latter part of my post was a jab at people (including Kavita) who defend sadistic religions by saying that they know many good muslims or xtians, etc. and I am trying to say that this is a socioligical issue and it does not serve the purposes of our discussion to point to individuals. Please re-read my last post and see the difference in my stance compared to Kavita and others. I hope that will help you contain your sarcasm.
Excellent Discussion Stuff from everyone I thought! Ravi's long but very clear post was Awesome Kavita! Wasn't it? Yeah...Kavita, it was nice to see the discussion back to a high level, where objectivity logic was placed much above emotions hurts and sentiments! Discussion actually means that...your sentis have to be kept in the back pocket for a while. We're not doing a romantic film in discussions. Maybe we should have some Romantic threads at Intent from now on for that imp aspect of we humans? :)) Where brains and logic should not be used....only sentis and sentis and sentis. Howz That Kavita?:))) Oh God!! Ok back to seriousness now...
Hey Andaleeb...I've to admire, for the way you've come up and talked about it. I've known mainly three groups of muslims sunnis shiahs and ahmedias, let me know if there are anymore..I can expand my horizons further. I've got to tell you this....that almost instantly I can sense the energy of shiaha and ahmedias. Have you heard of Bahaullah? Who was from Islam basically...Founder of Bahai. Bahais are mostly rasogullas!!
Coming to some of the points Kavita...The point which I mentioned way long back in this thread, which is a classic one and I thought it was nicely elaborated here. Ravi seems to be an Expert on this muslim/others and Islam/other debate, Divya is no less. Maybe both have done a thesis on this subject. About religion...
TAMPERING ACCORDING TO THEIR CONVENIENCE!
In capitals.....that's the story of not just Islam, but every! None spared. Every I repeat! that's the Typical Human nature at its best! Most of them claim themselves to be original and authentic in the texts. There are lot of commentaries too, commentary tho pucho math....it's just like our Cricket commentators. Each one basically dishing out their takes.
One point which always stared at me though out of many from Islam was...the men/women issue. I don't think anyother community must have ill treated women so badly, if you take out the complete history. They are just like sex toys for them. The toy does something wrong to them...throw the toy, burn the toy...but by chance if you've another toy to play with, it's ok..God is there no? He'll forgive you!
And Allah has got to be HE...no question of SHE. If you dare to think, even think then Fatwa! No scope for futher discussion. Have you ever wondered why God has to be he? It's called Projection of oneself, one's Identity onto God!
Well...having talked this far. I can suggest to those who resonate to this post to have a read at htkg(How to know God) becoz in that book..Our esteemed contributor at Intent Dr.Chopra talks so beautifully about the MINDSET of the religious followers...from the fundys to the moderates. Also the shift from religion to spirituality, and then just further on, how the human mind responds in different stages to any given situation. Only suggestion! No Imposing...needless to say.
Truly...Sachin
Divya,
was about to leave but had to respond to this. I like your kick ass attitude, but don't agree with you.
I see nothing that Kavita has said here for you to be sarcastic. The fact remains that all of us know people from different religions who are jackasses, and then others who are cool people.
I'm a little curious-what is it in your personal experience that has made you feel this intense hatred for Islam? I hope you won't find this question offensive, but I love to see where people are coming from, and I have always felt that we resonate with that which touches a nerve somewhere.
There are many here who probably feel you are self contradictory, others feel that you are right on-I feel you are somewhere in the middle-intensity and passion are great qualities to possess but they must carry the right message.
I see a soft side in you from time to time but I feel there is a lot of anger and hurt somewhere deep inside.
Would love for you to share it.
I must say there are bloggers and posters here that I have come to admire, and Kavita is one of them-so your sarcasm really doesnt matter-people who like her will continue to like her irrespective of what others have to say about her. If you ask others to stick to the points you must do the same, and I hope you don't mind my saying that. I like that fact that you have the courage to see your own flaws. I dont post that often but I lurk a lot.
Here's looking at you kid-or tipping my hat.
And hope to see some insight from you when I get back. Kayaking is great therapy-be one with nature and live on the edge
Matt - Either one gets the point or one goes around in circles. This statement of yours seems to indicate that you don't get the point.
"The fact remains that all of us know people from different religions who are jackasses, and then others who are cool people."
Perhaps the point is subtler that I realize but the rest of your post falls apart if you see the point I'm trying to make. The above is a meaningless statement for the purposes of our discussion. Do not constantly bring it down to the individual level. This is bigger than individuals.
We do not get to figure out if the muslim woman who is imprisoned at home is a cool woman or a jackass. She is imprisoned by religion. On the other hand I do get to find out if you are a cool person or a jackass. Of course, we are also imprinsoned but to a lesser degree. How much imprisonment do you wish to condone?
Take religion out of the picture for a second and talk simply about the essence of what I hate - oppression, control, brainwashing, instigation of man against man, cruelty, greed, bullying, lust for power, genocide. You will find we have much in common don't we. The difference between you and me is perhaps only that I am willing to place the blame squarely on ideology and you condone it and make excuses for it. I have spoken out against all ideology, including communism and liberalism, not just Islam. And now I've simply had it with all of you holier-than-thou types characterizing me as a hater. By the same token I label you a lover of genocide and lover of stoning women to death.
I can almost anticipate your next response. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are many nice people among the ones who throw stones at women who are stuck in a pit with their hands tied behind their back. After all, can you fault a nine year old boy forced to throw stones at his mother? Hope you can see how idiotic such a defense is. Or perhaps you don't. Do tell me if my sarcasm is misplaced.
"Take religion out of the picture for a second and talk simply about the essence of what I hate - oppression, control, brainwashing, instigation of man against man, cruelty, greed, bullying, lust for power, genocide. You will find we have much in common don't we. The difference between you and me is perhaps only that I am willing to place the blame squarely on ideology and you condone it and make excuses for it. I have spoken out against all ideology, including communism and liberalism, not just Islam. And now I've simply had it with all of you holier-than-thou types characterizing me as a hater. By the same token I label you a lover of genocide and lover of stoning women to death."
Very true and key points Divya, and if you remember I had mentioned from the economics perspective, according to Dr Sheth, ideology will be replaced by economic pragmatism by the three emerging and realigned trade blocs.
I hope that it translates to other areas of life, but religion is such a sensitive matter, and it is unrealistic to hope it will change overnight.
Blaming the ideology that leads to anything that destroys, humiliates, and dehumanizes, is not easy but every drop makes the ocean and it's the first step in recognizing what needs to be corrected.
Matt, thank you for your kind comments, but again its really not about me-its about what matters. People liking or not liking me on the blog is immaterial on one hand, simply because they dont know me on a personal level, and on the other hand, they have every right to be critical, sarcastic or appreciative of my writing as they evaluate it. If anything, constructive criticism makes me think and in the end, makes me a better writer, a more analytical person and a better human being. So these are two different matters and again I'm not here to win popularity contests. It has taken me a long time to write and think by looking at the issue and not the person, to not take things personally, and always look at the source that comment came from. I started writing when I was 18 for major newspapers and publications, and because everything fell in my lap, it took me a while to understand the tremendous responsibility that comes with wielding a pen. It took a few more years, maturity and a strong resolve not to respond fast to anything that may irritate me or sound obnoxious. When I did that and looked at the same thing after a few hours, it made a lot of sense many times.
Again, when we get the number of posts as we have here, we tend to forget what was said earlier and react to only the post before us.
I know I'm going to be looking at this blog for several days.
I just got back after 4 hours of laughter-a funny movie, the warmth of friends-of different ethnic groups and realized that humanity and inter personal relationships is perhaps the greatest balancer in life.
Ah well now to cinderella mode and cook dinner for my out of town guests..
Hey everyone,
Thanx Sachin for remembering me:)) Have loads to catch up.
Andaleeb, you are a good muslim but I am a afraid you are not well researched. I advise you not to talk about what you are not sure about!!!
Someone up there asked about different sect of muslims, apart from ahmedi, shia and sunni... Lemme correct you... Ahmedis are regarded as nonmuslims. All others are Muslims, whether they are Shia, sunni or AhleHadith.
Coming to the issue of Authenticity of Quran:
Everyone up there has mentioned Quran being in an alien language.. This is for the UNIFICATION of all Muslims. And contrary to popular belief, muslims donot just have to recite the Quran, they gotta understand the text aswell. I notice that everyone is always pointing out the Arabic language... But if you look around in our everyday life.. Even in countries like India, medicine and law education is in English. Had English not been the international language, was it not an alien language? keeping in mind the fact, that back then Arabic was the largely understood language. Also, some wellread people might agree with me in here.. that even today the major technical terms in medicine are in Latin.. same goes for Law, all the LAWS are in Latin... Is that not an alien language or do we make exceptions?
Regarding different versions of Quran, I quote two different sites which tell the same story
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=55934
http://www.islam4all.com/new_page_32.htm
To be precise, there is a copy of Quran preserved in Tashkent, written by one of the Prophet's (PBUH) scribes. After Prophet's death, Caliph Uthman compiled the Quran thru all written sources with consensus of 50 companions of Prophet Muhammed(P.B.U.H). All the mosques today, have the copies of the same Uthmani Quran. All the other versions are not authentic and therefore are not kept in the mosques and neither are they sold. I would like to mention here that some corrupted versions of Quran which are compiled by some nonmuslims are being sold at amazon.com.. BUT those versions have nothing to do with Islam.
Coming to my point, all the translations of Uthmani Quran are the same and authentic. The rest are not recommended.
I would also like to comment on Ravi's comment that the fault lies in the book, Quran. I dare you, you write another book which is as widely accepted and read by people as Quran and you take my word, I will stop reading Quran but only, and only after your book also include all codes of Life.
As for the authentic version of translation... Go for any translation of Uthmani Quran.
Quoting Divya:
"After all, love and piety existed before Islam and Christianity. These religions have simply created a God, said that love and peace are his messages, and by the way if you don't believe in all of this other crap you shall die. It is insanity to believe that human love and goodness are a product of religion."
Absolutely bang on, Divya! You tell them, like it should be told!. If one die-hard religious zealot sees the light of day and change their mindset, you will have accomplished a hell of alot.
Cheers!
Wow.. this has been one of the most exhaustive discussions on Islam and one that I learnt a lot from reading. Divya - you are a powerhouse of Knowledge and CLARITY of thought!
To me, the "Smoking Gun" of any religion's/Prophet's lack of Enlightenment is when it says it is THE ONLY TRUE ONE! First of all, having followers whom you can "redeem" is a falsification - that's plain nonsense! And on top of that to suggest that redemption is possible ONLY THRU their word and none else is the absolute lack of understanding of the spiritual journey. So in that sense, like many I have my doubts about Mohammad as even having much awareness.
Further, I cannot help remembering the statement of Divya that he was a "pedophile" - whenever I watch a 6 yr old girl. What kind of man would consider thinking of a girl THAT young as a wife??? In fact how can you think of her as ANYTHING OTHER THAN a daughter? Or was that tribe not know of ANY OTHER relationship with women other than slaved prostitutes and wives??
The problem is that there is no adequate questioning of the icons in any religion... and that creates the greatest leverage for bigotry!
Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com
Divya: So you recall my previous comments regarding your "clear potential" as a trial lawyer?
If I am not mistaken, "Matt's" current posts remind of the mind of a law student named Matt, who posted here more frequently last fall.
Regardless as to whether this is the same Matt, the message is still resonatingly the same--you have an exceptional and uncomprising gift for hard-hitting "debate"--the kind that can actually change things for the better--should you continue to refine your skills for such, as you done so diligently over time on forums such as the Intentblog.
You need not become an attorney, per se, to further develop these burdgeoning skills. In some ways, a full-fledged legal education may even prove to be a detriment to this direction, in the sense that law school itself will reveal to it's more dedicated students that it is indeed a thorough form of mind-training, so that one may learn to operate successfully and effectively within a system that has it's "own rules and corresponding language" for applying same.
Instead, you may find it useful to just find a NYC school (isn't NYC where you are at?) that will allow you to "audit" some of it's pre-law courses, it's debate-oriented legal training coursework, and even paralegal courses may provide a basic framework that could assist you---sit on "moot court" classes, or seek participation in some way with the "legal aid" programs some law schools use as training grounds that serve their local communities in very practical and utterly "affordable" as avenues for those who need genuine legal services, but can't afford them.
There continues, at least for me, to be a lingering "feeling" that you have something a "destiny" for some sort of powerful advocacy voice that serves the benefit of both individuals and collectives; both directly and indirectly as well.
I don't know that you will have to go out and consciously "find it"; rather, when the time is right, and by following the interests that "pull you," such as public speaking and debating activities, "it" will find you! Dave
Wow, this was a surprise. I thought for sure I'd come here to find a couple more messages about how bigoted I was! I'm just so glad that HuffPo is also carrying articles along the same lines.
David - For the longest time I wanted to study logic but never dared to because I'm so hopeless at math. Just the other day, I was at Barnes & Noble and I saw this GED math book staring me in the face and on an impulse I bought it. Unfortunately, I couldn't get past the division. Then, yesterday evening I met a young Ph.D student who's looking to supplement his income and we arranged for math tutoring. All of this just happened on an impulse within the last few days and it's really quite out of the blue. Now hopefully if not by the Fall at least next spring I'll be ready to study what I've always held to be something quite unattainable. Did you know many a great soul has attained enlightenment just through logic? So it will be of great help not just in writing and thinking clearly, but also as a spiritual exercise.
Divya: You've got it girl--you saw the magic of coincidence--Spirit (whether you hold that designation to be of any worth--as "It" doesn't care one whit what you call "It") is "listening" and arranging for you, what you will need, before you even know what you will need!
Logic courses are most interesting in how they bend and re-work our thought patterns; and I found them to be difficult at first, unlike math was to me, until the logic of Logic began to reveal itself to me!
About math, depending on far you go with those courses, there is saying that if you are naturally quick to learn geometry, you may find calculas difficult to comprehend; and the reverse is also true regarding a relatively effortless flow with calculas--did you know that besides being considered autistic until the age of five, because he didn't speak, Albert Einstein also flunked out of high school math?
During the years that Einstein was developing his many revealing theories that set the ground work, often in competition with the seemingly opposing theories of Neils Bohr, both of whom provided a composite platform (often unbeknownst to both of them--as they were each certain the other was wrong, so many times!) for the "geometrically-accelerating" progression of the quantum physics of today (changing moment-by-moment now as we more consciously engage the grand totallity of understanding of this master unity of forces "at play"); well, Einstein would simply engage the minds of his more mathematical cohorts to teach him the math he needed for mapping out his ideas--nothing great is ever done alone (well, Newton and his solitary work of deriving calculas in pretty much 9-18 months flat, and by his most-reclusive self, as it were......).
In short, I sucked at Geometry, which I took two years ahead of schedule, but I now realize it may have been partially due to having a gorgeous blond female figure-skater for a teacher, who loved wearing short mini-skirts to class, and of course, I was seated directly in front of her teaching desk---and yet, she was the one who helped me garner a true insight into the wonders of geometry--the very math that was once so difficult for me, later became the one I remembered so well!
Modern-day "fractal geometry" has all but reduced lifes fundamental life-giving and life-perpetuating force into one grand equation; there are computer software systems that use this equation to evoke a graphic visual of this equation "in action"; maybe your PhD mentor will know of it, and be able to show it to you--your subconscious will know what to do with your perceptions of it!
I am really happy to hear of this endeavor Divya--it is a true treasure to see your child-like excitement at the wonder-of-learning you are being given, and I can also anticipate just how much fascinating insight you will be a source of for this "teacher" whose been brought into your life, as you have his, and for grander purposes than you may yet be aware of! Yeah baby! Dave
Dear Sadia,
Thank you for your comment. You asked if I could write a book that would surpass Quoran. Sorry, it is not a popularity contest. If popularity is any indication, I would bet Harry Potter has been read front page to back, more often than Quoran in the original. Facetious response to facetious challenge!
The question is not whether Quoran is a good book. In my mind it is not, but that's irrelevant. The real question is do we really need such a book in the first place. As Divya said, love and compassion and all those desirable human traits existed long before the Quoran and other books were written. There were good people and bad people before and after. So what is the big deal about the books then? Has it taught us anything that we are not likely to discover on our own? Does simple human dignity have to be taught in a foreign language, written 14 centuries ago?
The fault lies in the paradigm of the religions. Man created God because he had many questions he could not answer. Who are we? Why are we here? Where do we go from here? You get the drift. People thought there must be a gray bearded guy sitting in his comfy chair who knows all this stuff. But they didn't ask how to deal with their neighbor. They didn't ask him if they could beat their wives. Or whether a woman needed four witnesses to prove that she was raped. No, it is simple common sense and anyone with a little human decency could figure out.
Along came these wise men who thought they had to tell every one how to behave. In the process they corrupted the beautiful and intensely personal relationship between man and God. Now God can not be approached unless you did this or that. These books are supposed to be timeless; immutable; unmatchable; name your superlative here. But everytime anyone brings up an anachronism (like slavery, like polygamy) they mention that it was in the context of 7th century Arabia. You can't have it both ways. There is a real dichotomy here. By nature human beings change; their morals change; their cultures change. Any book that claims to determine all these things for the rest of the time, is a monstrosity. It is a bondage on the free spirit that is human mind. It will not succeed.
Dear Sadia, please do not take my comments to heart. I condemn all religious books in the same tone, especially those who claim to come from God. I suppose the best one could say about these books is perhaps they were inspired by God. One can always claim inspiration to do good things from God. My only hope is that we don't abandon our dignity and decency in the name of following these old books of dubious value.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Hey Ravi,
sorry if u misunderstood me about writing a book. I am not talking about an adventurous fiction book and not even about the popularity of the book. I am talking about the acceptance of the book by millions of people..
And the book is not a fiction, The Quran, the last revealed Word of God, is the prime source of every Muslim's faith and practice. It deals with all the subjects which concern us as human b eings: wisdom, doctrine, worship and law, but its basic theme is the relationsh ip between God and His creatures. At the same time it provides guidelines for a just society, proper human conduct and an equitable economic system.
Can you write a book that can boast of all these qualities??
Yeah right, what is the need of this book, when anyone with a little decency can figure out? I ask you a question now... What is the need of all these medical and law educations... when someone with a little mind can solve all these cases and then ofcourse law changes every year? Becoz, we still need some guidelines... And Quran, my dearfellow is not just a guideline for certain aspects of life... it is about ALL aspects of life
Order Order! The court is adjourned for the wknd, it will reopen again on mon mor.:)) Just some lightheartedness here!!
Sadia...You are against all odds now. Here's the best challenge for you as a lawyer. For you, I reckon it would like me visiting an Islamic site. I'll be stacked against high odds, I've been before. Everyone will just rip me apart there. If one can stand that ripping and get thru' it, then one's really good I reckon.
I thought it was fairly clean this time the discussion part. It's a very sensitive issue mind you....Emotions have to be Ideally kept in the back pockets...and has got be all mind and logic!
My reason of being in this and fostering the discussion was to have Islam in the open, because that was one of the last things most followers did. If the level of discussion is kept clean, just good rationale....then it will be terrific.
It's nothing personal here Dear Sadia...if at all anything is personal, I can say I feel lots of love and respect for you. But really the discussion is not personal. It's about religion and all its other associated aspects!
Truly..Sachin
I came across this very interesting link:
Mathematical Miracle of the Qur'an
http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html
Does anyone know more about this?
After having read the link, the mathematical qualities don't seem that exceptional. The thing is, old Hindu texts long before the Qur'ans time also have such mathematical encoding and they're attributed to human authors. It was probably a tradition of the time to marry language with numbers.
Thanx Sachin, I will keep in mind what you have said:)))
S.I.,
I quote some other sites for you to visit which might be more interesting for you:
http://www.famousmuslims.com/The%20Quran%20on%20Clouds.htm
http://www.islamicity.com/science/quranmiracle/
http://www.angelfire.com/vi/islam/miracle_of_quran.htm
To read the rare wisdom, intelligence and clarity on this thread of a Divya or a Ravi K or a Desh, gives a glimmer of hope for mankind with respect to moving forward from the shadows of the dark ages and ridding the shackles of the past.
On the contrary, to peruse the trite, recycled and closed-minded nonsense confidently emanating from a Sadia reminds me how deeply tied we are to our 'ignorant' past and how little hope there is for us to move ahead and to begin to rethink all things anew.
Religion, truly, is a powerful opiate, and man is hopelessly addicted.
No prop!
It is clear to me that a few foolish people are using their "education" as a prop to justify their impaired thinking. Let me remind us all that acquiring a piece of paper after a few years in university is not a licence to practice nonsence or justification of same.
There is a clear difference between being 'educated' and being intelligent. Intelligence is a natural talent; eduation is that limited field of expertise you acquire in school, and seldom do the twain equate.
Here on this forum, you can leave your 'education' out and reason on your on. You shall rise or fall, accordingly. It nauseates me each time someone uses their 'schooling' to justify their foolish reasoning.
AJ.
P.S. Look Maa, am a l..yer, I must be smart!
AJ: Are you verifying that "common sense is indeed 'most uncommon!'" Dave
David,
Yes!
AJ,
I agree!
'A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step'.....old chinese proverb.
'If ever revolution occurs in ISLAM ,it will be brought about by it's women.'
Hats off to WAFA, SADIA and ANUSHEH for taking this bold and unprecedented albiet dangerous first step. And if there is a GOD or a SUPREME INTELLIGENCE, may HE/SHE protect and guide you to success.
"Aurat ne janam diya mardon ko...
Mardone ousse bazaar diya....
Jab dil chaaha masslaa kuchlaa...
Jab jee chaaha duttkaar diya"....This is the unfortunate reality and nature of MAN ....the animal and when HE takes this trait and writes in religious liberties for HIMSELF AND SHUTS THE DOOR FOR DEBATE AND REASONING.... AN OPPRESSIVE "RELIGION" IS BORN.
AJ, it's one thing to debate the ideology of Islam and the ideas in the Qur'an, and it's quite another to demonize billions of people. The first inevitable leads to the second when the billions of people become entrenched in their ideology in the face of the harsh words of the Divyas of the world. Instead of working with the billions towards reform of their societies, the words of the Divyas tend to alienate them and further lead to the second, which is the demonization of the people. You just have to visit Hindu or right-wing American forums today to see what I'm talking about. From benignly deciding the ideology to be flawed, the tide is turning towards demonizing the people themselves thus further strengthening their belief in the ideology. Divya's words by their confrontationist and harsh tone are counter productive to progress with these societies rather than conducive to it.
Andaleeb, Sadia, thanks for participating in this frank discussion. And may we all work together as unbelievers as well as believing Muslims to turn the tide of hatred and violence sweeping the world. To stop the preemptive wars, to stop the killing of innocents in terrorist attacks. To stop the neocons and the Islamic extremists both with their imperialist agendas to bend the world to their respective cultures.
Andaleeb, Saadia, and other Muslims here: The veracity of the Qur'an aside, I and many many other Indians firmly believe that Islam is not a religion that incites its followers to kill us non-Muslims. I have 1.5 billion Muslims living their lives as peaceful human beings to give me enough proof.
I have travelled in some Muslim countries and as an Indian, I have received more warmth, love and kindness than I had expected. People used to break out in smiles when they knew we were Indians, and tell us they loved us for our genuineness, our obvious tolerance and support for Muslims, our movies, and nowadays for the shining examples of our democracy and economy. These people never had any hatred for us just because we were Hindus. And I hope the Divyas of the world don't destroy this goodwill for India and Indians.
In India, we have so many Muslims who are tolerant, progressive and peaceloving. Our esteemed President, our cricketers, our movie stars, our tennis stars, our software titans, all count fervent Muslims among their ranks, and none of them have tried to kill us for being non-Muslim. So believe me, although there are some terrorists among them who have been bombing and shooting Hindus in India over the years, I don't believe most Muslims support them in any way. And I hope we all can live together in India peacefully and progress.
SI,
I do not agree with you that the Divyas of this world are demonizing bilions of people. They are making the right and the difficult calls which many do not the courage to do.
Divya is a precocious and evolved mind, way ahead of her time. Your attempt at anathema and ridicule is a weak one. The Diyvas of this world are today's heroes. In more primitive times they would have faced severe sanctions or death for speaking out for what they beheld to be the right call.
You mention demonizing without producing evidence or examples. You use words like confrontationalist and harsh, but am sure you do realize that the truth is, sometimes, a bitter and harsh pill to swallow.
Religion is a powerful opiate, and man is hopelessly addicted. The world needs more Divyas Ravi Ks and Deshs. They are the beacons that lead from the pits of darkness!
AJ, I'm shocked that people here including you, David, CherryLane and others, on this supposedly liberal blog are defending Divya's views which to me are nothing more than rabid intolerance of Islam and Muslims. Whatever happened to tolerance for other's personal beliefs?
If women in Islam are happy with the laws of the Qur'an, why does Divya have a problem with it? It's obvious to me that women don't get as much of a raw deal as Ms. "anti-Muslim Heroine" Wafa Sultan, Divya or others would have us believe.
Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, including the United States, with 50% of these new believers being women. Why would women brought up in the US submit to Islam if it were as contrary to women's rights. I still haven't heard an adequate explanation for this from the Islam-bashers.
To me, the obvious explanation is that women find all their needs satisifed in Islam, and are in no way mistreated as Ms.Sultan and others claim for shock value and publicity in the current climate of Islamophobia.
SI,
You are repeating recyled nonsense, pal. Where are the examples supporting your argument? You make outlandish allegations without producing corroborating evidence. Produce the goods or lay off!
Divya, you have made light of the Gujarat riots and Babri mosque demolition many times. I quote a Sanskrit verse to make you think:
धर्म एव हतो हन्ति धर्मो रक्षति रक्षितः।
It translates somewhat as: Dharma (justice, Right) when protected protects, when destroyed destroys.
Keep this in mind when justify the destruction of dharma in the above cases. Thousands of innocent people who hadn't done anything were killed. Can you justify it in any way by pointing to Mahmud of Ghazni?
Another quote that's relevant when you demonize Muslims of today for the deeds of a few invaders in the past:
वैरेण वैराणि न शम्यन्ते कदाचन
अवैरेणच शम्यन्ति एषः धर्मः सनातनः।
Do you want India to burn because of the past, or would you rather we look to the future with a vision of a progressive and peaceful India with a place for Muslims who are tolerant and peaceful?
Secular Indian: For myself, Divya will be the first to tell you she finds many of my views to not even be worth responding to!
I am, however, defending the reasoning she uses to justify her views on whatever topic she posts on.
I agree with many, that she often diminishes the validity of her own platform with her point-blank ridicule of another's stance, or the sometimes "emotional logic" that may appear to be the basis of the very stance Divya is opposing.
If you study Divya's posts carefully, and with as much open-minded scrutiny as you yourself can muster, you will find quite a remarkable heart, one that often hides in fear of too much vulnerability; hence, the sometimes-acidic and laser sharp logic that is characteristic of Divya's exceptional use of reasoning.
You will also find that she is genuinely determined to continue to elevate her communication skills to their highest potentials--a goal that I, for one, greatly admire.
From what you have posted in recent times, I know, that you know, not to "disregard or mis-interpret 'the message,' just because you don't like the message"
I believe it was Siddhartha Gautama who elucidated on the point of "messengers," and so distinctly!
Thanks for your many "thought-provoking" contributions to the Intentblog. Dave
S.I.--Couldn't help the analogy, if you will.
I believe it was last summer when I first encountered the "fiery" voice of Divya, here on the Intentblog.
You'll find that it is not actually acid that Divya throughs on the subject of her critcism; but rather, an ice-cold, and often refreshing, bucket of water on a sultry summer's afternoon.
She will make you think, and feel, what we least like about our own selves that may be truly revealing to us--if will but look at what Divya is pointing at.
And do consider that she spares no one, in the final analysis; not even herself!
She has thrown her "proverbial buckets-of-water" on Deepak, just as quickly as she has anyone else--and I haven't seen Deepak, Mallika, Gotham, or Shekhar shut her off the Intentblog (and it's their Baby, so to speak!). Dave
"Thanks for your many "thought-provoking" contributions to the Intentblog. Dave"
David, why the quotes around "thought-provoking"? Were they not thought-provoking?
I'll try and read Divya in that light. But I feel she needs to get some polish and _engage_ the opponent rather than strike them down and shut them up, if she wants opposing views to be expressed to her.
....and it should have been, "not to kill the messenger, just because you don't like the message," and...vice-versa! Dave
Secular Indian: The quotes are for "emphasis!"--because your comments are thought-provoking and engaging! Dave
Hello S.I.
I challenge you to take away your definition of opponent.
Do this, and
you win
everytime!
~ Kate
Kate, I meant an opponent in a debate, someone who holds an opposing view.
I don't understand what you mean by "take away your definition". Could you elaborate?
Sorry-but I think this is an interesting article by Karen Armstrong:-
Karen Armstrong
The True, Peaceful Face of Islam
THERE ARE 1.2 BILLION MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD, AND ISLAM is the world's fastest-growing religion. If the evil carnage we witnessed on Sept. 11 were typical of the faith, and Islam truly inspired and justified such violence, its growth and the increasing presence of Muslims in both Europe and the U.S. would be a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, this is not the case.
The very word Islam, which means 'surrender," is related to the Arabic salam, or peace. When the Prophet Muhammad brought the inspired scripture known as the Koran to the Arabs in the early 7th century A.D., a major part of his mission was devoted precisely to bringing an end to the kind of mass slaughter we witnessed in New York City and Washington. Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare, in which tribe-fought tribe in a pattern of vendetta and counter vendetta. Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts, and the early Muslim community narrowly escaped extermination by the powerful city of Mecca. The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia.
Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to 'slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them' (4: 90).
In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2:190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2:191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).
Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its 'pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war' but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad,' the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.
Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book" who worship the same God (29:46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49:13)-not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.
So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.
It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.
Karen Armstrong has written many books on religion, including Islam: A Short History, published last year by Modem Library
Hi S.I.
You are correct, when debating a topic - there are two or more views. Each person takes turns discussing their view, and offering 'evidence' to support their view.
In debate, there is an 'opponent'.
But, this topic of discussion, of religious beliefs, really does transcend definition.
It is so deeply personal. For many, religion is a Way of Living.
I walk in Faith, and no religion is needed for present moment Living.
Religions can offer earmarks, and signs to point out, Truth. It includes qualities of caring, compassion, understanding, and forgiveness. These tenets can be found in every religion, or as Divya has said, these qualities can be Lived, by anyone who chooses.
In the present moment, in complete Awareness, no opinions, beliefs or constraints apply. None are felt. This is a universal Truth. Ah, if only it were as Easy as it sounds. And yet, it Is.
I gave up debate in highschool. I did love it, though. I confess!
And it doesn't mean, I do not have opinions! :)
The Cause of Peace, is near and dear to my heart. And I will work for that, within myself, and ask others to join in this too. But, only if they want to!
Namaste,
~ Kate
Sadia, your comment above was blocked because of all the links in it. It is above now, in case anyone missed it. Mallika
Kamini: Your post of Karen Armstrong's article is an arrow that strikes a bulls-eye in the heart-of-the-target that captures the meaning of the saying taught and demonstrated through the life-and-times of Jesus: Not the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the law; learn this, and only this, from "the law!"
Is it not amazing, that Muhammad himself was, for all practical purposes, himself exiled from Mecca by the repeated threat of assasination and/or execution, for many years at a time; and much like the Dalai Lama of today, who is the most sought-after target for assasination currently alive today; and all for their true mission of peace!
Thanks Kamini, for your placing Karen's "arrow" so appropriately in the center of the same target Kavita placed before us here on the Intentblog, and so timely as well! Dave
Divya,
As I have told you many times I admire your thought process and the ability you posses to communicate concisely what is on your mind.
Also I have told you in the past that I don't always agree with your point of view. This is ok as I still respect your ability to communicate clearly.
I know you don't much like getting personal and are not into people analyzing Divya the woman so I will try not to.
For whatever it is worth I felt the need to tell you what I am about to tell you because you make a hugh difference in the way I perceive things in my world.
As I read this thread over the past few days I became more and more irritated with you and others given the level of hostility that I was "perceiving":. I could hear your message and I couldn't.
I felt like posting clever vicious taunts. Then I read your self "analyses", if you will, to Ravi and my anger was completely dissipated.
The post that followed, where you purposely retaliate with insults toward SI while still delivering your message, I read with great laughter. It was hilarious. Turnip? You also have great wit I love that. And you still remained on point.
So why am I saying all this? What David says is so true. You have a deep gift. You feel very strongly about these issues of degradation in our world and you have a powerful ability to articulating them and there causes. This then creates the context for the discovery of solutions.
The downtrodden of this earth need voices like yours. You truly did open my eyes in this string to the absolute danger of all religion. I was getting there. My father called the Catholic Church evil this weekend. You pushed me over the top.
Your message comes through the clearest when you cease to use any negative words or insults. Even though I see that the insults are not personal, negativity in most forms somehow blocks the message.
Anyway whichever way you decide to express yourself I look forward, in the future, to reading you. Now that I am aware that you are fully aware that your passion for a topic, and some vicious attacks on your character, can sweep you away. I like that it doesn't disarm you and I guess that is the main thing.
Hi Laurence,
Agree with all you have said about Divya. I too laughed myself silly over the 'turnip' bit.
Anyway this is not about Divya, it's about you. It's a pleasure seeing you getting out of the wooodwork at last and heres wishing you stay out and share more with us.
Divya your response to Matt first-
“Matt - my last post was in response to Andaleeb's statement that she believes in the message of love and piety taught by Islam. It was meant to show that love and piety have nothing to do religion. This is a different point from the one you are trying to indicate. If you must act sarcastic and find fault please make sure you understand what you are attacking.
The latter part of my post was a jab at people (including Kavita) who defend sadistic religions by saying that they know many good muslims or xtians, etc. and I am trying to say that this is a sociological issue and it does not serve the purposes of our discussion to point to individuals. Please re-read my last post and see the difference in my stance compared to Kavita and others. I hope that will help you contain your sarcasm.”
Divya, I wish you would take the time to read posts carefully-here is my line in its entirety
“Let me also say, I have far too many Muslim friends who are amazing people and many Hindu friends who are jerks and close minded, for me to attribute anyone's attitude to life to their religious upbringing.” You have said the exact same thing in the opening statement.
I have considered you a powerful voice on the blog, but I have also said to you that you often come up with knee jerk reactions. I think some of your most well thought out responses were not immediate responses. I see no where among my posts, any truth to your claim that I’m defending a sadistic religion-sadism exists every where-you must have seen bawandar by Dr Jagmohan Mundra-based on the true story of a dalit woman raped by several high caste Brahmins and still awaiting justice a decade later, the atrocities in Bihar, a predominantly Hindu state, the story of devaki, a film doing the rounds of several international film festivals, right now which I saw two days ago based on the real life story of a dalit woman married to a 70 year old, hindu man, as his fourth wife- who gave his younger brother every right to rape her repeatedly since he couldn’t consummate the marriage and later she was sold off to the highest bidder for 5 thousand bucks by the village elders all Hindus.
If I was to look for sadism I can also find it in Christianity, in Buddhism, in Judaism. But that is not the purpose of this blog-that is not why I wrote it. Wafa sultan questions certain religious beliefs in Islam- if we choose to we can questions several beliefs in other religions-the point is not to attack or pass down presumptuous judgment- as you have obviously done here, but with your tremendous knowledge and wisdom contribute to the solution.
Kamini thank you for the trouble you took to research your post.
For every one else-here is to refresh your minds to what I have said throughout this blog. I’m putting together most of my major comments in their entirety. Please read through and tell me where you find me doing anything that is disrespectful, or supporting anything that encourages sadism etc etc or dehumanizes or destroys what is good and right.
Anonymous, sorry if I inadvertently hurt your feelings. I do have to say that I never write anything to fill empty spaces, nor do I write to win popularity contests.
I feel that you have missed the entire point of the post. It is not to indulge in Islam bashing as you may have presumed but to look at the points a young child raised after perhaps reading media reports, or as a result of a school project. A friend of mine told me his 8th grader and many of her friends had done projects on the Middle East in schools studying Pakistan, Israel and Islam along with it last month. She has asked her parents the same question. I’m sure when they study Christianity or Hinduism, America or the world, other questions will crop up that will be as difficult to answer.
For me the bigger religion is humanity and I look at life without looking at scriptures and react to what I see before me. And like Dr Sultan I wonder what if it was my brother blowing himself up in the name of religion. How does it affect the clerics and fundamentalists who brainwash these young boys and tell them they will attain paradise if they blew themselves up and took some more innocent lives. I wonder if you saw Barbara Walters’ interview with a Palestinian man in an Israeli Jail answering questions on why he became a suicide bomber. It was most heart breaking
What I see today is my moderate Muslim friends being ostracized and shunned because they have the last name Khan. Why? Perhaps the answers lie in some of the points that Dr Wafa Sultan has raised in her interview. The video I saw showed the cleric who was addressing her totally at loss for words. Not once did he defend himself or Islam articulately against her remarks. Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.
I would request you to think through the article would love to get a feedback, backed with facts and your thoughts on it, instead of being mad at me. And btw Babri masjid has been discussed on this blog as have many other issues that are supposedly volatile, and many of the people who have written their comments don’t use an alias.
Kanika thank you for your comment. Your blog really resonated with me because I have grown up in Jammu and Kashmir, gone to many of these shrines and prayed with my Muslim friends, until the world began to change. Mercifully people that I know haven’t-and that is a blessing I cherish.
I think some of the most bigoted people I have seen are also the most educated and privileged, so I don’t know if it has anything to do with being a privileged lot. I used to see rich men sipping wine of the most expensive kind talking about being staunch communists.
I believe firmly that it’s never religion but our environment, upbringing and our circumstances that make us who we are and that is why Dr Sultan’s comments are so important in today’s world. We really need to take a step back and think why things are the way they are and whether this was how it was originally supposed to be.
I also have to add that what Yogi and Mark said are really key-it depends on who holds the reins and the supposed answers to issues..a gun in the right hands becomes a weapon of protection-in the wrong hands it becomes a weapon of mass destruction-the same can apply to religion or anything that can be potentially divisive or can create hatred and close-mindedness.
Also Magenta, I strongly feel that US is greatly responsible for the tragedy of Iraq, and training the Taliban in Afghanistan. The wtc tragedy and the hatred America arouses in the world is the price we've paid for handing over reigns in the wrong hands.
thanks Sachin for your kind words.
Anusheh,
thank you for your thoughtful post again.
These lines caught my eye in Dr Hassabala's post- "Does she not know that the majority of Muslims around the world reject the violent rhetoric and tactics of the extremist mutants? Does the good doctor not understand that Islam does not condone suicide terrorism, even if said suicide terrorist claims that Islam is his (or her) motivation? Apparently not."
If that is the case why is it that the voices that we hear from time to time are solitary voices like those of Wafa Sultan, or a salman rushdie.
I also wanted to post this here because perhaps it reflects a section of well educated Muslims and their opinion, and if they channel it to bring changes it could be the start of a good thing.
and then if most Muslims are moderates and believe in peace then why does he say
"Why? Why are some Muslims so threatened by her criticisms of Islam, however misplaced they are, that they are willing to threaten her - a fellow human being, a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister - with death? Certainly God is not threatened by her statements. So, why should we be?
Rather than silence her with the threat of death, why not engage her questions in an open, honest, and forthright debate? What if she has some valid points? Wouldn't the whole ummah be benefited by her insights, if there are any? No, these Muslims refuse to listen to what she has to say and would rather declare her an "infidel" and end the discussion. They are acting like the people of Abraham (pbuh), when they were confronted with the absurdity of their idol worship. Rather than admit that Abraham (pbuh) had a point, they responded by saying: "Burn him and give aid to your gods..." (21:68)."
He hesitates to acknowledge the obvious validity of some of the things she has said with a what if in the beginning of the sentences-to cover his own rear end? I wonder.
I think what I would wish would be for people like Dr Hassabala, who are educated and financially sound, to stand up and inspire others to come forward and stand united and create the change that Dr Wafa hopes for.
I was moved by Dr Wafa's interview because of the passion and honesty with which she spoke, and yes I wish there had been a healthy debate, but will years of history of what is expected and projected be wiped out and a new beginning usher in a kinder ,more loving tomorrow? I doubt it, but at least this may be a start.
Divya, thanks for your input..I think Anusheh has a great point in that when you speak from experience and knowledge based on what has impacted your life deeply, it makes more of an impact. I feel the same intensity from your posts whether they are about Hinduism or other topics that you choose to write about-I may not agree with some of it, but I have always appreciated that you write straight from the heart and with passion.
Somehow I have always believed that what comes from the heart is seldom frivolous or non impactful.
thank you everyone..I'm moved and enriched in many ways and I know will be thinking about the posts in days to come.
Thank you every one for the informative posts.
Sadia, thanks for saying you are not mad at me and also for remembering my name:)
Let me firstly say that no where have I criticized your religion. What I did was to simply put forth the question of a child and Dr Wafa Sultan’s interview. Before I focus on the posts let me add that my brother a Hindu Brahmin is an Islamic scholar-he has written several books and two of his best sellers are the 100 names of Allah, and his English translation and interpretation of the hanuman chalisa. The hundred names of Allah has received rave reviews everywhere including the dawn newspaper in Pakistan. He is an IAS officer in india..and guess what is his name..Parvez. So I come from a pretty liberal and secular family.
You mentioned about Islam having a bad name these days, and if it is because of the mindset of only a handful of people then why has it not been nipped in the bud just like the practice of sati was many years ago? If Islam is indeed a peaceful religion why does it give the impression to the contrary? If we talk of underprivileged people who became terrorists, then we have to look at the fact that not all of the Islamic nations are poor-in fact Dr Jagdish Sheth a world famous marketing guru whose latest book I just reviewed and who did a very provocative interview on my website, has made the prediction that in a few years the Islamic nations will become a trade bloc by themselves because they have the man power and money to do so. If the state of Israel and a Jewish community that makes a fraction of the earth’s population can stand up for its own and empower their own why hasn’t say Palestine been offered the same support?
I actually asked that question in the streets of Jerusalem of a Palestinian street vendor last November when I visited the country. Only in a democracy could he stand there and get a picture taken and lash out openly against Israel and the Jewish community and not have a fatwa on his head as we stood there talking and his frustrations were unleashed in a 40 minute verbal diarrhea.
He however said to me that he hates the Palestinian government equally-that Hamas does more for the people and it would come to power. When I asked the scholars of Palestinian origin why weren’t they receiving help from their richer brethren, they had the grace to look embarrassed and say that initially money came but was pilfered away by Arafat’s men.
I don’t see the poor man on the streets of India becoming a suicide bomber..and India is a horribly poor nation even today in large chunks-how many acts of terrorism have you seen there that were not linked to a Muslim terrorist group?
The saddest thing in the Kashmir conflict is not only have the kashmiris paid a heavy price for it, but a lot of them have been Muslims as well. Hatred begets hatred. If it is not religion then why do the terrorist groups always dedicate it in the name of their God.
You said “My dear Kavita... what Dr Sultan has done is questions beliefs… putting a garb of religion does not make all other beliefs sacred.” Well, Dr Sultan happens to be questioning certain beliefs attributed to her religion. If these were erroneous assumptions on her part, I wish one of the esteemed scholars pitted against her had corrected her instead of saying-there is no point discussing anything with you because you have blasphemed against Islam etc..
You are right that it happens largely due to lack of education or may I add due to the education being imparted in the madrasas from childhood. It happens when we get mad and take things personally, instead of sitting down and educating each other-it also happens when we are too afraid to speak up against the elements that are working against any religion to use it as a divisive and destructive force. It happens when people are not willing to engage a wafa sultan in a healthy dialogue and show facts and statistics to prove her wrong, when it comes to her interpretation of Islam.
Our circumstances, personal experiences and environment make us who we are, but just because our past has violence in it, should we create a future out of it, and is the Muslim community so weak that they can’t stand up and put a stop to it? The money that is sent to the terrorist organizations of any kind and filtered into a bank account of a suicide bomber, comes from the coffers of the rich. Why can’t that money be used for education?
Growing up, surrounded by the love of my Muslim neighbors, having a best friend who is Muslim and seeing what they have to face because of their last name and religion, and to look at a 12 year child and hesitate as I fumble to say its not the religion perhaps and have stats rattled off before me, angers and frustrates me. I wish I could go back to those idyllic days when the temple bells rang in harmony with the chants of allah-hu akbar as I woke up to get ready for school, choosing to eat breakfast at my Muslim neighbor’s house and being more pampered than their own daughters, but my world and the world of many has turned upside down when faced with the dark side of terrorism and hatred, and all coming from one source..a supposedly divine source at that. When all paths lead to the same God-why can’t the path be one filled with peace and harmony?
Thank you very much every one for your thought provoking posts again. Sadia I will check out the links, in between what is going to be an overfull working day. Kamini, Steve and Anusheh, your posts stood out again in the many aspects they covered.
I feel one's religion is very important to one's well being-it gives you faith and hope in the days when you have no faith and hope, both integral to life.
Kamini, I quite agree that its our circumstances as I said earlier that often make us who we are-at the same time, there is always that little voice inside us that tells us what is right, and it is often suppressed when we do something that isn’t right, or healthy for us just because we want something badly, or are afraid. I had just put the today show on, in the middle of a report on some police shooting with some innocent bystanders..a woman said.."I was hoping more people would protest this action, but people are afraid-they dont want to get involved"-that is perhaps the key word-people dont want to get involved. I think unless something affects us personally, we dont stick our necks out.
Your line about there being a fine line between terrorists and freedom fighters is very key. It takes superhuman abilities to remain forgiving and kind when your child or an entire family in the case of the Palestinian man Sadia mentioned, gets wiped out.
At the same time when I look at the rules and regulations laid down by society and the holy books, written by as Anusheh says god knows who, I tell myself and my friends who have gone against the so called traditions and done things, that these traditions were created by men and women as imperfect as ourselves-do what feels right for you as long as you dont destroy someone else in the process.
There has to be discipline and guidelines, but not if its affecting people to the extent that it destroys families or has become invalid because the world has changed. Another child once said to me -I think Bush is the biggest terrorist on earth and so is the America he represents..and that sentence got me thinking too-I think child is truly the father of man-and the thinking of children is often uncomplicated by fear and other complexities
Finally I must mention what Gandhi said-Be the change you wish to see in the world.
Thanks AJ, Divya, Steve and Namita.
Divya as always you've made some key points. AJ and Namita, I think if I was to speak from a personal perspective I grew up deeply influenced by my maternal grandmother who taught me the rituals of Hindu religion-in fact funnily I'm more ritualistic than my mom or dad-They believe in the theory of Karma-do good and make that your religion. I strive to do that but I also just have to get up, take a shower, light my diya and chant my mantras and chalisas before starting my day. I feel empowered and ready to face the world, and my day seems brighter.
All the good things grand ma taught me were based on stories from our epics-though I would question her incessantly why Rama gave up on Sita because of gossip and she would say the deeper message was of sacrificing your most precious and personal possessions for the general good, and God showed that by taking on a human form.(hmm I'm still not convinced!).
So I attributed everything that was noble and good to the hindu philosophy and believed that the virtues we are supposed to possess and value are somehow interlinked deeply to our religion. I learnt as I grew older that things were a lot more complicated than that- just that because we made it so.
I therefore imbibed what worked for me and ignored what didn’t. But in my darkest hours when I'm sad or need help, I turn to my version of God ..strangely the days I pray with conviction, the answers come quickly and so does help.
Maybe that is why we cling to our own individual versions of religion.
Many atheists may turn to another human being or mentor or even look within themselves for answers.
Sometimes you need that just to get through each day-even for a terrorist.
whether it brings hope or hopelessness in its wake-you simply cannot undermine the power of religion- and that is why many have exploited it to destroy and plunder and others to bring succor..
Aj I wish we could remove everything that causes dissent and hatred among people-religion is only one of the weapons of mass destruction when used unwisely-there are many others. And they are all in the hands of mankind.
For me the key thing about this discussion is not whether violence are part and parcel of a particular religion, but whether we can do something as individuals to make sure the past is not repeated to affect the future generations.
There has to be an in-depth study of past history to see why certain religions used violence and we have to realize as Dr Sultan said that it is no longer desired in today's times.
King Ashoka massacred thousands until he embraced Buddhism, America's invasion of Iraq can as easily be called the worst act of bullying and terrorizing a nation. For me Wafa Sultan questioning certain aspects of her religion raises a hope that this may open doors for questioning certain aspects that may not be valid in today's age and time and must be discarded and the positive and good aspects followed. Before partition so many Hindus and Muslims lived in peace and love-they followed the same religion even then..what has changed? The same thing applies to Hinduism and Christianity, Judaism and others.
I would love for people to educate us on the various tenets of these religions. I know there are many scholars on the blog who can do that.
Wafa Sultan's comment
"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."
I find this comment very interesting. Is it because Islam is barbaric or is it so because of the mind set of the Islamic clerics, and if it is Islam why did the Islamic nations become more liberal minded when not ruled by the Khomenis of the world?
It will be interesting to see how everyone who has written here will interpret this.
Divya I haven’t read the Koran and cannot comment with your expertise..but as I said earlier I prefer to see what is before me today and ask my questions. I would love to get a good English translation of the Koran and study it. Any suggestions? I remember you had recommended another translation when someone had gifted me a set of Vedic translations.
Have to run..will be back late but plan to sit and read through all the comments again if I can over the weekend which is full of out of town visitors and event coverage.
Let me also say, I have far too many Muslim friends who are amazing people and many Hindu friends who are jerks and close minded, for me to attribute anyone's attitude to life to their religious upbringing. My brother was once stoned by some Hindus in Jammu because he walks around in plains clothes when he was commissioner because they thought he was a Muslim.
But you must also remember that any one of us , if we want to believe something will continue to believe it, no matter how much evidence you provide to the contrary, and no matter how much you appeal to their better sense.
It applies to anyone who is guilty of being narrow minded and unreasonable-but how do we judge that? I may seem narrow minded to one person and liberal to another. Its all relative.
What Ravi has provided is extremely negative from our perspective-but you ask ayatollah Khomeini and he would have told you-its the right thing.
I'm sure the practice of Sati which is condemned now continued then because it was accepted in society then. I guess I have been shouting myself hoarse saying why do we make the past a barometer for the present and why do we take what is obsolete and still stick to it, in any walk of life? And that is what Wafa Sultan is asking as well.
I only wish that we could have these dialogues peacefully.
There are some other posts of mine-which dont carry any new thoughts but where I have thanked ravi for instance, that I have left alone.
I have a very long day ahead and will be away from the blog off and on but I want to thank all of you for putting in so much effort, Divya included to have made this a very thought provoking blog.
S.I.I see you are hurt, but remember we must all do and say what we believe in passionately. You must detach from taking things personally and continue to prove point with facts You have to give people the same space that you want for yourself to speak their mind and what they say may not necessarily be what you may believe in-and its okay-nothing wrong with that- Again as I said people will believe what they want to believe, no matter what any one says. Move away from anything that doesnt change or hurts you incessantly.Stay healthy, stay calm and happy. I wish you and everyone else on this blog everything good.
There are enough people who will think the way you do-we always find kindred spirits and our isolations are always a temporary phase.
I apologise to everyone whose posts I have not been able to acknowledge, but thank you-all of you make a difference, and make everyone else think.
As long as we continue to think-there is hope.
Divya,
I read both your posts addressed to me after returning from my weekend trip. Let me say I resonate with what you've said about good values ging beyond religious belief. As I read through your posts across the blog, I was impressed by some insights,(loved the comment about men being different than women and that we do them a disservice by not recognising that difference.)
Having said that let me also say, after reading Kavita's response it is obvious to me that you took something out of context to prove your point.
That is what seems to upset a lot of people about you. I also agree with Kavita that you dont think your responses through many times, and lash out.
Remember that the one who makes the most noise isn't necessarily the wisest-empty vessels make the loudest noise too-don't they.
I see flashes of grace, introspection, humor and a good heart in your writing-I say your writing, because I dont know who you are as a person-but I don't think I have ever seen you apologize for an error, or a contradiction you've made in the past.
I think in this instance you need to acknowledge the error Kavita has pointed out.
Do you want to be someone who earns the right to yell and not be respected? I hope not-because as Kavita said you are one of the most powerful voices here-you have intelligence, insight and lack of malice-but you also need to take time to introspect and then write-you will be a great asset anywhere you go then.
Kavita, while you say it is not about you-let me say, a lot of it is about you, and the love and loyalty you command on intent. No one gets 300 plus hits on their blog, if it wasnt about them, no matter what topic they chose to write on.
Thank you for your contribution. Like Divya you make all of us think, even when at times we dont agree with you.
You just have more patience than many others and I know you will be a world beater wherever you go.
I salute you.
David, you are awesome man, and so is Ravi. Kamini, for a diplomat you kick a lot of ass too and I like that. Sadia, you make me smile with your energy.
AJ, i loved your comment-why do we need religion? Very profound. Has me thinking.
Lets continue the dialogue. Divya I hope you wont respond immediately and think about what I said, and I say it with affection.
Matt - Kavita and me are *not* saying the same thing. I'm sorry I don’t know how to express the difference any better than I already have even though I can see the difference clearly in my head. This is a limitation of my ability to express myself and not of the argument itself.
Good people and bad people exist everywhere. Here we're on the same page. Where we begin to differ is when I say Islam (and other ideologies) create sociological conditions that lead to depravity. I have not seen Kavita acknowledge this fact. Conveniently pulling out examples of evil Hindus does not do the job and to me simply comes across as an attempt to pander to all sides. In India it is against the law to rape a woman. In Islam rape is the law. Ask Mukhtaba Bai. In India it is against the law to discriminate against people. In Islam discrimination is the law - a hindu life is worth less than an Arab life. An Arab male is worth more than an Arab female. In India it is against the law to stone a woman to death. In Islam it is the law. In India among Hindus, people are not taught that they have exclusive claims to the truth from one true God and all others are non-believing devil worshippers. In Islam they are. There are serious cultural, psychological, and emotional repercussions to all of this which effect all people of that society. In spite of this there will be good people, bad people, jerks, clowns, what have you. You cannot point to the diversity of human types to say that the ideology plays no role. On a broader scale it does.
Moreover, you cannot take the context out of a comment. When I say people would be good or bad whether we had Islam, Christianity or Hinduism, I am challenging the notion that religion is a prerequisite for goodness. This is not the same as Kavita's stance that you cannot attribute people's attitudes to their religious upbringing. In fact I hold completely the opposite view. You absolutely can do that. People usually get their sense of ethics from religion whether directly from the scriptures or through osmosis. Again, in spite of this there will be good people and jackasses within each religion. This is an attribute of human beings - that is human beings are all different even if they come from the same cookie cutter. However, the cookie cutter plays a crucial role. I have not seen Kavita recognize the role of the cookie cutter.
Of course she's entitled to whatever she wants to hold true, but it is not the same as my position is all I'm trying to say. If the point is still not clear then I simply am incapable of expressing it. You just have to take my word for it that we are not on the same page or prove with your own logic why you still think we are.
Kavita, could you please start a new blog entry. This page is taking too long to load and comment on.
Matt, I think it's as much the material Kavita has chosen to blog on as herself that's the reason for 300+ responses. I'm enjoying the discussion.
Kate, when I debate, it's from a completely non-personal perspective. I may think someone is bigoted in their views, but I would have no problems inviting them home to dinner with family and playing Holi with them. One of my closest friends is an ultra-extremist Hindu. So viewpoints are just one aspect of a person. I have no doubt Divya is a fun person to get to know. And that is why I'm enjoying talking to her. I wouldn't have posted comment after comment to her if I thought she was a nasty person. BTW, I was chuckling at the name-calling too. We're all trying to hash some issues out here, but obviously we love each other as people, Hindus, Indians, whathaveyou.
Oh, and as for being a powerful voice, let me assure you I get hacked to death at other sites. It is up to Intent to produce a powerful counter-voice and in fact it is much needed here. There are many people with opposing views but they tend to appeal to emotion instead of reason which does nothing to help their case. Or else we have the type who instantly invoke caste and sati as their best counter-argument. One of these days someone who actually addresses the counter-issues will turn up at Intent and then you can watch me get fried.
BTW, I think I'm getting closer to understanding Divya's pov. She hates Islam as an ideology because of the perceived oppression it is wreaking on a billion odd fellow human beings. That is a very valid viewpoint.
However, could I ask again: If these billion-odd people don't think they're being oppressed but are mostly content with their religion, obviously Divya has a mistaken view of the ideology and its effects.
BTW, Saadia and Andaleeb, could you please answer whether the penalty for leaving Islam is death as per the Qur'an?
Exhaustive!!! Oooofff! Way too much to process. Kavita just the last but one post of yours was like a thread when I was scrolling!!
To me...it truly is like Triple century Kavita!! Triple even on a flat track has to have those Incredible shots. Your blog had it!
As a contributor...you can go home, and feel proud perhaps that this has to be the best of yours even in the quality wise. Now that it's gone into archives...I don't think it will interest others much now.
Good on you! Keep the focus on other imp things too Kavita. Main chaltha hoon abhi ke liye.
Bye for now...Sachin
Dear SI...That's the conviction buddy!! Your points are going above the head for many...beware of that. Not many have can see two sides of the coin.
Kavita...I think SI's point is not bad at all. Soon you can start off, just part2 is not bad hey!!! When people get part 3 to part 6....This is the Blog which needs that!!!
Islam part2 and then on and on and on...:)))
Love..Sachin
Hehehe Sachin. You're a funny chap!
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Recent Comments
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Secular Indian commented on For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
Hehehe Sachin. You're a funny chap!
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SM commented on For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
Dear SI...That's the conviction buddy!! Your po
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SM commented on For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
Exhaustive!!! Oooofff! Way too much to process.
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Secular Indian commented on For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
BTW, I think I'm getting closer to understandin
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Divya commented on For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
Oh, and as for being a powerful voice, let me a
Thanks Kavita for sharing this. I found a link to her video interview on Memri TV:
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1050#
Their is nothing I can't add, except the world really need to hear her voice and perhaps this can spark a real reform that is so badly needed in Islam.
Thanks again for bringing this issue up on Intent Kavita.
Blessings, Steve