The Ties That Bind
Kavita Chhibber - April 04, 2006
"During the heated immigration debate on Capitol Hill, some Republicans have portrayed immigrants as invaders, criminals and burdens to society, but
for Senator Pete V. Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, the image that comes to mind is that of his mother and the day the authorities took her away."
These are the opening lines of an article by Rachel. L. Swarns, in today's New York Times. While working on a criminal investigation story (that is scheduled for June), where 43 Indians-all with the last name Patel, were arrested for supposedly selling over the counter ingredients that make methamphetamine, what struck me was a key side issue- the fact that some of these people were illegal immigrants and had lived and built a life for themselves for more than one decade and at times two, and today as they were being deported back to India, all the money spent in attorney fees, they leave as foreigners for their own land. They dont know any one in India and have to start all over again-something that is a lot tougher to do there. Their attorneys found their hands tied and did not even bother to fight the case regarding their innocence or guilt in the meth case, because even if they were not guilty they were still being deported.
This becomes such a moral dilemma as tempers fly and heated discussions ensue. Should illegal immigrants be given legal status, for many of them have lived here and led exemplary lives-after all they broke the law in the first place. Is it such a crime to want to go elsewhere to improve your lot?
What do you think?
I'm publishing the article in its entirety. Its long but worth a read.
"An Immigration Debate Framed By Family Ties
"By RACHEL L. SWARNS
Published: April 4, 2006
WASHINGTON, April 3 — During the heated immigration debate on Capitol Hill, some Republicans have portrayed immigrants as invaders, criminals and burdens to society. But for Senator Pete V. Domenici, Republican of New Mexico, the image that comes to mind is that of his mother and the day the authorities took her away.
PETE V. DOMENICI of New Mexico says his mother, was taken away by the authorities in 1943 when they discovered she was an illegal immigrant from Italy.
"You ought to try and give people with five years and more the opportunity for some kind of break."
It was 1943, World War II was raging, and federal agents were sweeping through Albuquerque hunting for Italian sympathizers. They found Mr. Domenici's mother, Alda V. Domenici, a curly-haired mother of four and a local PTA president who also happened to be an illegal immigrant from Italy. Mr. Domenici, who said he was 9 or 10 years old then, wept when his mother vanished with the agents in their big black car.
Now 73, Mr. Domenici surprised many of his colleagues when he stood up on the Senate floor last week and shared the story, which he has kept mostly to himself for much of his life.
But his powerful account reflects a broader reality that has gone almost unnoticed as Republicans feud over whether to legalize the nation's illegal immigrants. Among the most passionate Republican voices in this debate are lawmakers with strong immigrant ties, who have woven the strands of family history into an outlook that has helped shape their legislative positions.
The close connection has convinced some lawmakers of the importance of providing citizenship to illegal immigrants, while others say it should be granted more sparingly.
Senator Arlen Specter, Republican of Pennsylvania and chairman of the Judiciary Committee, which voted last week to legalize millions of illegal immigrants, said his parents came to the United States from Russia in the early 1900's. Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, who supports a more limited temporary worker program, said he grew up listening to the stories of his grandparents, who arrived from the Netherlands sometime before 1910.
And Senator Mel Martinez, Republican of Florida, fled Cuba for Florida in 1962, when he was 15, and lived in orphanages and with foster families until he was reunited with his family four years later.
These men carry the memories of relatives who spoke with the sonorous accents of their homelands, fading black-and-white photographs of the newcomers to the United States and the names of villages in faraway places. All four support bills that would allow illegal immigrants to work here for a period, though their singular experiences have resulted in different perspectives on the question of whether the immigrants should become citizens.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, when foreign-born senators and those with immigrant parents were much more common, their stories would have been unremarkable, Senate historians say. These days, the lawmakers say, their family histories — particularly those of Mr. Domenici, Mr. Specter and Mr. Martinez — give them something of an unusual vantage point.
"I understand this whole idea of a household with a father who is American and a mother who is not, but they are living, working and getting ahead," said Mr. Domenici, whose mother was married to an American citizen. "I understand that they are just like every other family in America. There is nothing different."
Mr. Domenici's mother was 3 when she arrived in the United States with her family from Italy and about 38 when the authorities came looking for her. She was married to an Italian-born American citizen, who owned a grocery store, and thought her papers were in order.
After she was picked up on that day in 1943, Mrs. Domenici was released on bond to return home to her family. Over the next six months, she completed the necessary paperwork to become a citizen.
Mr. Domenici said his experience had persuaded him to introduce legislation that would grant illegal immigrants like his mother, who have deep roots in the community, the chance to become citizens, while more recent arrivals would be allowed to work here only temporarily.
He does not support the bill passed by Mr. Specter's committee, which would not distinguish between recent arrivals and those who have spent several years here. "You ought to try and give people with five years and more the opportunity for some kind of break," Mr. Domenici said.
Of course, supporters of temporary work programs are not the only ones with immigrant relatives.
Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, one of the fiercest critics of efforts to legalize immigrants, said his orphaned father was about 11 when he arrived at Ellis Island from Italy around the turn of the 20th century and made his way to the Rocky Mountains.
Mr. Tancredo pondered a bit when asked whether his immigrant background had played a role in shaping his views. Then he thought back to his mother's parents, also from Italy.
"I certainly think back on the fact that their greatest desire was to be Americanized," Mr. Tancredo said. "This desire to cut with the old and attach to the new, speak English, stuff like that. If there was anything, maybe that was an influence."
James A. Thurber, director of the Center for Congressional and Presidential Studies at American University, said lawmakers in Congress often reflected, to some extent, the demographics of the nation. Dr. Thurber also said he believed that the current wave of immigration from Latin America would fuel an increase in the number of foreign-born members of Congress.
"First and second generation, we had larger numbers of those in Congress in the 1800's and early 1900's," Dr. Thurber said. "Now, for most people, it's third and fourth generation. They remember the stories, but they don't feel it in their guts the way you would if you were socialized by parents."
Mr. Specter says he still feels it. He keeps the old photographs hanging in his office, on the wall behind his wooden desk. There is his father, slim and solemn in his World War I uniform, standing alongside his young bride draped in lace.
His father fled anti-Semitism in Russia and arrived in this country when he was 18. After the war, he settled in the Midwest, where he sold cantaloupes from the back of a car and ran a scrap yard.
Mr. Specter said his parents' struggles and successes had profoundly influenced his thinking in shepherding immigration legislation through the Judiciary Committee.
"You talk about America being a nation of immigrants," he said, "well, my two best friends were immigrants, my mother and my father. I saw how they struggled. They struggled with the language. They struggled with anti-Semitism. They struggled to make a living. It was tough. You knew you were different.
"So I have a lot of simpatico for the individuals who are immigrants. I have even more of an understanding of what immigrants have done for the country."
Mr. Martinez, the Florida Republican, echoed those thoughts, saying his own success in the United States had convinced him that given the opportunity, illegal immigrants would also succeed. "America has a way of bringing us in," he said, "welcoming us and allowing us to become a part of the whole."
Mr. Specter, 76, and Mr. Martinez, 59, whose parents fled oppression in their home countries, both support a plan that would eventually grant citizenship to illegal immigrants who spend six more years here, pay fines and back taxes, and learn English.
But on Monday, Mr. Specter said that he and other Republicans were also willing to consider a proposal along the lines of Mr. Domenici's. Senator Kyl, the Arizona Republican, backs a much more limited program. He said that his grandparents, who settled in Nebraska, spoke Dutch and heavily accented English and emphasized old-fashioned values, "frugality and the ability to make it on hard work, grit, honesty."
If they were still alive, Mr. Kyl said, they would look at modern-day illegal immigrants and shake their heads. "I suspect they would be very upset about people who didn't do it the right way," said Mr. Kyl, 63.
His legislation, which would provide for a temporary-worker program without a path to permanent residency or citizenship, emphasizes that illegal immigrants should not be rewarded for breaking the law.
Mr. Domenici sees it differently. Both his parents are dead, but his mind sometimes flies back to his childhood, to memories of his mother raising money for the local Catholic school, the smell of his father's cigars and that awful day back in 1943.
Mr. Domenici said he decided to tell his story when the hostile rhetoric about illegal immigrants started to boil. He said he wanted to remind his fellow Republicans that the sons and daughters of this century's illegal immigrants could end up in the Senate one day, too.
"I wasn't trying to impress anybody," he said of his story. "I think it just puts a little heart and a little soul into this."
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Posted by Kavita Chhibber at April 4, 2006 06:26 AM
Comments
We live in a complex world and immigrants, whether legal or illegal, are everywhere. Even in India we have illegal Bangladeshis. I think packing them off to their native lands is not the solution because after all, at least when it comes to America, most "Americans" have come from somewhere else. I know this is rhetorical because America is a well-defined nation now and they have all the right to define their own laws but still, illegal immigrants, now that the system has somehow allowed them to stay in the country for several years, should be given some chance to become legalized citizens.
I'm not sure what to say about the "Patels" case because no country would like to naturalize people just to keep them in jail. I think for them the best option is to come back to their country of origin and restart their lives. It would have been a different matter had they been legal US citizens.
A question though: can people who have become US citizens too be deported in case they do something illegal, or are they kept in the American jails? I'm talking about the current scenario, not the post Specter bill time.
Hi Kavita - I'm glad you blogged about this topic. Not a particularly insightful article from the NYT but they're not that great at handling contentious matters.
The US totally deserves to be overridden by immigrants. First off, they usurped the land from the Native Americans and have no right to it. They also stole California from the Mexicans. Such sweet justice that Mexicans are slowly taking California back. Not to mention Texas.
One might make the case that it's not fair that current generations have to pay for the sins of past generations. But it's not quite like that. The current generations are every bit as sinful. I recently read an article which made a very strong case that if only the US employed fair trade policies, they would not have this problem on their hands. I also recently read a very sad article about the plight of farmers in Andhra. They still haven't stopped committing suicide. The Indian government has completely sold out to US trade pressure and the poor Indian farmers are forced to buy seeds from the likes of Monsanto. These seeds are very expensive and are not re-usable. Monsanto has engineered these seeds so that they bear a harvest only once and the seeds produced by that harvest are not re-usable. Each year the poor farmers are forced to buy these expensive seeds from Monsanto and they are slowly literally starving to death or committing suicide. Meanwhile the ugly American gets fatter and fatter each year. All of South America is also suffering in one way or the other due to US bullying.
The US also talks about free trade but heavily subsidizes its farmers. As a result, the US products are very cheap and flood the third world markets. It is cheaper for a Jamaican to buy (US-owned) Chiquita bananas than to buy their locally produced ones. It is also cheaper for them to buy Nestle milk than to use fresh milk produced by their own cows.
It is impossible for any nation on the planet to live the lifestyle led by the Americans through honest means. If the US wants to keep immigration under control it needs to stop looting other countries.
On a personal note I found out on Sunday that the owner of my favorite Indian restaurant was prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants. In my mind it’s very unfair. If you are interested you can read about this case at http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/14238135.htm
That’s how I found out about it.
Here’s my take on it and the letter I sent to the local paper yesterday. Of course I don’t know these people personally, and maybe he was taking advantage of his employees, but it didn't seem that way to me.
Dear Editor,
This is in reference to the Sunday, April 2nd article, "Case reveals lives of illegal immigrants." According to the article, Nagappan Mylappan, the owner of Udupi restaurant in Columbia Heights, is "the first employer prosecuted for illegal hiring in more than three years." We all have our opinions regarding illegal immigrants in the United States but the fact is that MANY other employers are hiring workers without work permits and not being prosecuted. The only difference I can see with regards to Nagappan is that he seemed to really care about the people he hired. He broke the rules and I can see fining him for that, but taking his house and his duplex and surrendering his permanent residence status and also doing jail time. That's ridiculous.
Besides the great food, one of the most striking things about the Udupi restaurant was the atmosphere. The employees were happy and seemed to be treated really well. They may have worked long hours, but he provided them food and a place to live as well as money for working which they were able to send back to their families. And he even took them to lawyers to try and obtain legal status in the United States. No one can say for certain what Nagappan's intentions were, but it seems to me that while what he did may not have been right, he was trying to help the people that worked for him.
I think it's terrible and unfair that he was singled out for prosecution and received such a harsh punishment.
Sincerely,
Kristin Masterton
Amrit - The Bangladeshi situation is not analagous. They chose to create their own country because, ahem, they needed freedom to practice their religion. They have absolutely no business being in India. Moreover part of it is a deliberate political move to try and expand their borders.
Kavita:
My views are very clear on this - Illegal is Illegal. It ought to be dealt with whatever punishment that the current law provides. Period.
I came here legally and it took me 2 years more because the Prez announced Amnesty for the illegal folks .. and here I was working my ass off.. paying the Social Security and Taxes and all other dues.. and was PENALIZED for that!! Just NOT DONE! The incentive to remain within the law slowly erodes in such a situation.
As for the Bangladeshis - I am with Divya ... either you work within the confines of society and its complexities - but once you or your parents have decided that a society is not for you ... and demanded a new one and killed to get it.. (like the Western Pakistanis did - it is a little known fact that frustrated from Congress' refusal Jinnah had announced a Day of Direct Action sometime in June of 1947 when he said the violent campaign will start - which started from... Bihar!) .. in that case just stay the fuck out of our society!! Simply. I have no respect nor regard for people who kill for their own selfish interests and THEN demand sympathy!!
Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com
Amrit, you said, "now that the system has somehow allowed them to stay in the country for several years, should be given some chance to become legalized citizens."
I think so too.
Love, Kristin
Illegal Immigrants are breaking laws of USA still they are getting good sympathy from media. However I am not against Illegal Immigrants. They are contributing to economy of USA.I support bush, John McCain approach.
TO Divya: If you think everything is bad in USA. And USA is society of opportunist. Then your guess is correct. Only one advice to you and other socialist is THIS IS FREE COUNTRY if you do not like this place go to FRANCE or INDIA
Jignesh
Jignesh - Please tell me where I said that everything is bad in the US. Besides how do you know my only purpose in life is not to loot these looters and that's the reason I'm here.
Desh,
I'm not saying I wouldn't be angry if I had to wait 2 extra years as you did. But do all of those who come to the US illegally even have the oportunity to come in legally? How does one get chosen?
Divya,
From one ugly American to another,
I'm guessing that your only purpose in life is not to "loot the looters". If so, how could the outcome be anything but tragic?
Love, Kristin
Aloha
Conversations with God Book II had a wonderful solution to the world economy. There would be a ceiling amount of money that people could make. Say the money that people made over the ceiling amount would be divided up to the people that didn’t make the ceiling. Neal asked God the question would that be fair, “What if someone didn’t work for 10 years?” God’s response was, “Maybe after 10 years that person would write a sonnet that change the lives of everyone in the world.” Competitiveness would still be allowed it is just the reward would be shared.
I feel America should have a peaceful revolution where everyone is welcome. We would have a sovereign citizenship. As Deepak shares in Peace Is the Change, people could live walk down the streets without fear for there isn't any need for the fittest to survive. Those who still want to be competitive would still be welcome it is just the extra money goes into the pot for the country. The poor need the material world to survive and the rich can never have enough. We would still have many wants but our needs would be taken care of. Let everyone feel his or her life has value in the boundless.
love patty
Dear Kristin,
I read through the link you provided and while everything about the kind way with which Chettiar treated his employees even housing them rent free at a duplex owned by him is commendable, he did so knowingly for a long period of time and got caught, while others have managed to get away. His punishment? The following is a direct excerpt from the article.
'Chettiar was indicted in January by a grand jury on charges of aiding, abetting, harboring and transporting illegal immigrants. Prosecutors agreed to drop 13 of the 14 charges and he admitted to one count of knowingly hiring unauthorized aliens, a felony.
He is the first Minnesota employer prosecuted for illegal hiring in more than three years.
Before Chettiar struck the deal, his attorneys had argued that Chettiar was unfairly singled out for something that many other Minnesota businesses do all the time. They complained that defendants in two other illegal-hiring cases were allowed to plead guilty to misdemeanor charges, including a personnel employee at the Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Worthington who sold work papers to illegal immigrants.
Prosecutors responded that Chettiar was targeted because of overwhelming evidence that he harbored and helped transport illegal aliens. Magistrate Judge Janie S. Mayeron ruled that Chettiar failed to prove he was being selectively prosecuted.
Chettiar is awaiting sentencing, said his attorney, John Lundquist. Based on the plea agreement, Chettiar could receive from six months of home detention to 18 months in prison and a fine between $2,000 and $30,000. He also has agreed to forfeit his Shoreview home and the Columbia Heights duplex to the government. He will surrender his permanent resident status and return to India. He is eligible to apply for readmission to the United States."
Is it too heave a price to pay? The prosecutors will say absolutely, because he broke the law knowingly. Just because others are doing it and he was the one to get caught, doesnt take away from the crime itself. But is it such a heinous crome that he has to pay such a heavy price? That is the moral dilemma
Divya, I was reading about the plight of the Andhra farmers and we had a discussion about this. One of my friends said if America is supposedly reaping the benefits, why is USA facing such a huge trade deficit? The seeds evidently have been engineered to produce 10 times the harvest and of course they are not reusable because billions of dollars have been spent in research and intellectual property has to be protected. But I'm wondering what is it that is preventing these farmers from saving enough from those harvests to enable them to buy the seeds again? Do you know anything about it? I guess I need to read up more.
Perhaps there is rampant corruption or they have to go through middlemen? are the sale prices hiked up heavily that it leaves them with little?
Amrit, if my information is correct, you can be deported if you are a resident alien but not if you are a US citizen.
A colleague was talking about her best friend who has her entire family-her sister and brother living here illegally since the past 15 years and running businesses in her name or her husband's name. She says she knows many others like that.
"All these people work 12 to 14 hours and are oxymoronish though it may sound law abiding people, who come home to their families, and live an exemplary life-so what do we do with them and their lot who have in their own way contributed to the economy?" she asked.
Desh you have a relevant point too. All I can say is I just dont want to be in the shoes of the decision makers right now.
Hi All,
This is a complex situation. On the one hand ALL countries have the right and obligation to protect their borders and to regulate who comes into the country. Although difficult, I suspect that entry and exit from the US is probably easier than most places in the world. Becoming a resident of the U.S. does require some money and proof that you can care for yourself and are willing and able to work; this is not unfare, but can be difficult to prove. Also, there are requirements that you are not a criminal...this is logical to protect the people that already live here (and after all, we have our own homegrown criminals to deal with, without having to "import").
On the other hand, no one can blame poor Mexicans (or any group for that matter) for wanting to improve their lot in life. Which includes allowing their children an opportunity for education and advancement; and the chance to live in a free society.
Whether the government decides to give amnesty to current illegal immigrants or not will not solve the problem. The problem can only be solved by making it easier to enter the United States and easier to stay. They need to make it easier for those without expensive educations or a lot of front money to stay and build their lives. Frankly, these are the people that tend to really make leaps ahead and add to society when given an opportunity.
Peace,
Scott.
PS - Divya, in your opinion is there any problem in the world that is not due to the U.S.? It seems impossible to me that the U.S. is as big a deal as you make it out to be.
Kavita,
Thanks for reading the story about Chettiar.
Love, Kristin
Thanks for posting the NYT article. It's such a complex issue and it helps to read stories about the people and families who are actually effected.
Kristin - I didn't mean that quite so seriously, but immigrants do send back a lot of money to their countries which helps. Also it is vital for all countries to have a presence in the US so that they can see first hand what things are like and learn how to retaliate. If I hadn't been in the US, I would never had learnt how to fight back about the way Indian culture is depicted (for example).
Scott - I did not say all of the world's problems were created by the U.S. In fact most of the world is still suffering the after-effects of problems created by the U.K. But yes, the US has very deftly taken over the imperialist mantle. In any case, it would be helpful to stick to just this topic because the generalization makes it a false accusation.
Are you saying that the US does not dump it's cheap goods on other countries? Ask the Russians who are forced to eat plastic US chicken and the Jamaicans who feed their babies powdered milk. Are you saying that the US does not under-pay its labor so that no American will do the job and only immigrants will. Did you know the entire state of Texas will come to a screeching halt if the Mexicans left?
And all of this aid that the US claims to provide to the poor countries, if you begin to examine what exactly it consists of, you will find that 80% of it is in the form of weapons. The newspaper headlines will scream "$10 billion aid provided to Such and Such country". In reality, it turns out the aid is all in the form of weapons or aircraft to keep the US economy going. If you're on NetFlix, see if you can watch a movie called Life and Debt. It depicts a slice of this whole operation very well. And why should poor farmers be forced to buy American seed? Of course they claim it produces more wheat. But so far the only thing the farmers have been able to reap is misery and despair. (Kavita, the government officials in India must be making a windfall somewhere).
And where's Craig when we need him by the way?
the United States has every right to further itself as a nation economically. if other countries allow US imports, goods, and companies to enter their borders, then it's fair and it's the choice of that country (if you don't want coca-cola and mcdonalds in india, then don't let them set up shop there- but the truth of the matter is that there is a high demand for american goods and services all over the world).
the US also has an obligation to its citizens and taxpayers to protect this country's borders and economic stability.
that being said, i do think that LEGAL immigrants contribute alot to this nation and we should change immigration laws somewhat so that it is easier for people that just want a better life to come into this country, get a job legally, pay taxes, and create opportunity for themselves and their children.
On the topic of immigration, I would like to point out a very good article by Fareed Zakaria
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12114153/site/newsweek/
As usual, it is funny to see that people apply different standards to immigration in US and India (with their own twists ofcourse).
PS: Hey everybody, Nice to be back. My venture in India had taken most of my time in the past few months. Happy to see that Intentblog is buzzing around very well. Will try my best to do the usual "krishgiri" from now on in whatever little time I have :-)
Divya -
Yes, it was a sweeping generalization of me to ask that question of you. It is simply my perception that when there is a problem you usually find some way to point a finger at the U.S. (or Christianity). I may sound like I'm being defensive of my country (and I suppose I am), but from a more pragmatic, logical standpoint, it seems virtually impossible to me to blame so much on one country. Are none of the other countries in the world responsible for themselves and/or their policies?
Please don't pull Craig into this...I just can't handle another twenty page diatribe on the evils of Capitalism and the joys of his utopian/Marxist revolution: "Welcome to the future and enjoy your unisex unitard comrade!" :)
I am quite aware of the role that immigrants (legal and otherwise) play in the U.S. economy (and Texas). And I'm impressed by the amount of dollars that are sent back to their families and homes. The main reason that there are so many "illegals" in the States, is that life is pretty good here. There's lots of opportunity and low poverty. These people are illegal because we've set the bar at such a level that only people who don't need to be here can get in. I would like to see that change. If people believed that they could apply for entry and the odds were good that they could enter then most people would do that rather than risk death, leave their families, etc. to sneak across the border. I think the U.S.' current debate over immigration is a MUCH needed one, and an opportunity for Americans to see how REALLY important immigrants have been and continue to be to the growth of this country in general. Locking the "doors" to the country ALWAYS fails. 18th century Japan and China are perfect examples.
Having said that, immigration has to be done logically and safely (just like every country in the world) as there are definitely criminal elements that we do not want.
Peace,
Scott.
I agree with Scott when he says that we do not want criminal elements in the crowd of illegals. However, I disagree when he says immigration should be done like every other country in the world. Why do you think the other countries are doing immigration well. Do you think those Indians in Intentblog who support immigrants apply the same standard when it comes to immigration into India. No. They will blame Christianity when it comes to supporting immigration to US and islam when it comes to opposing immigration into India. Pure double standards. Take many countries in Europe (except may be Britain and few others). How are they doing immigration? They are messing up. See Germany and France. The immigrant community will never integrate with their society due to bad immigration policies. Riots in France is a good example of such bad policy. US, on the other hand, was doing immigration well (as Zakaria had noted in his article). It was a land built by immigrants and their policy was based on that fact. They are doing well on this front. Thatz why you don't have France type attack here. Thatz why immigrants here love America (except some bad apples) and integrate with the society well (unlike immigrants in Europe). Trying to change this system to something similar to other countries is a disaster. Trying to designate 12 million illegal immigrants as felons will force them to do other forms of felony. Trying to alienate huge latino population will lead to france kind of disaster. Even the "cream" who migrate legally will not integrate with this society. Do you want America to go towards such a scenario by following immigration process in other countries or do you want America to show the world how to do immigration correctly and be a leader. The choice is for Americans to decide.
I agree with Desh, illegal is illegal. I feel bad for the families who come here illegally and then someone is deported - but then they should have thought about the consequences and tried to immigrate or work here legally.
"The US totally deserves to be overridden by immigrants."
"The Bangladeshi situation is not analagous. They chose to create their own country because, ahem, they needed freedom to practice their religion. They have absolutely no business being in India" - divya
OMG divya.. your so funny! ur always ruled by ur personal grudges & emotions and thats why what u say makes no sense sometimes.
Jignesh,
As usual you are contradicting your own words.
"THIS IS FREE COUNTRY if you do not like this place go to FRANCE or INDIA"
I agree it is a free country and I think one can express their opinion freely. Isn't it? Or your definition of "free country" is also Bushian in nature?
Krish -
I didn't mean to imply that the U.S. should follow the exact procedures of other countries when it comes to immigration, only that other countries have immigration policies and it is their right to have them. America too should have the right to control its borders. Originally, controlling the borders was one of the few Constitutional functions of the federal government...of course, over the last few decades, the Constitution has had very little to do with how the U.S. handles itself. And many function of State government have been handed over to the federal government (a huge mistake in my opinion).
It seems to me that there are some that just believe that because it is the United States that the door should just be open up. So you and I are pretty much on the same page.
Peace,
Scott.
Scott - this is probably the first time I have said anything anti-U.S. so your impression is dead wrong. I generally leave the anti-US ranting to the liberals. In fact I must be the only one on this board who has never once railed against the U.S. about the war. I do blame everything on Christianity (including Islam) and generally support my argument with examples. There is no denying the (unwelcome) scope and influence of this religion in every facet of life. You need to show how my opinion is incorrect rather than simply state that I blame Christianity. And when I say I'm anti-west, I specifically mean the influence of Christianity that constitutes the west. Prior to that, intellectual discourse was governed by Greek influence. I think we discussed this once when I clarified that the "west" by my definition constituted the intellectual shift from Greece to Jerusalem.
You say: "The main reason that there are so many "illegals" in the States, is that life is pretty good here." This is precisely what I am trying to pick apart. Life is good here at the expense of other nations. If the U.S. implemented fair trade practices many of these immigrants would be much less miserable and stay home. This would be one way to deal with the "immigration problem". Of course the U.S. needs to do whatever it takes. But I simply cannot contain my joy that California will have a Mexican majority in the near future.
Nimita - spare me the character analysis. I have given reasons for my opinions which seem to have totally escaped your grasp in your eagerness to condemn. If you don't see a poetic justice in the Mexican takeover of America then your heart is obviously some place else. My cousin is totally anti-immigration by the way, and comes up with long lists of reasons for her opinions. I admire people who have the courage to state their opinions. Half the people on this board who will pay lip service to all the great work done by immigrants actually are horrified by the idea of immigrants. They don't realize that it's actually very good to have two sides of the issue clearly stated, otherwise there will be an imbalance. It's perfectly legitimate for some Americans not to want their country overridden with latinos or indians but they should come out clearly and say it.
Hello Kavita and Everyone,
There is an excellent article in the WashingtonPost today by Fareed Zakaria on the US Immigration policy.
Excluding the American Indian, we are all citizens of this Nation becuase of the courage of an Immigrant to venture forward into an unknown land. Compassion must guide our law-making.peace ruth
Divya,
I stand corrected and appreciate your clarification of "west". Although I believe that what has become known as "western" thought is as valuable and insightful as "eastern" thought (though decidedly different); I can see how you would view it as the root of many of the worlds current problems. Would it be fare to say that you believe that the worlds overvaluing of western ideals (which in my viewpoint is masculine or Yang) and the undervaluing of eastern ideals (feminine or Yin) has unbalanced the world? If that is your belief, I agree with you completely.
Christianity is an eastern religion that has been interpreted by western thinking (as is Islam) and that is the heart of its problem. Left brained thought says a thing is or it is not...it cannot view things symbolically. So to me, Christianity isn't the problem, only the inability to see it as symbolic.
American trade policy sucks. I believe in free trade with free countries. If you trade with countries that are not free, then state endorced slavery (socialism, communism) deflates the price of labor to such a level that free countries can't compete. Governments that are not free can threaten their "employees" with prison or death should they not produce. Of course, Craig would say just socialize the whole world, then all would be fare (when everyone is a slave, than no one is?????).
As far as the Mexican majority in California, I have no problem with it. The U.S. is going to change and it's always safest to go with the change rather than fight the tide.
Scott.
Me cyber ears is burning!! 'unisex unitard'??? What is that Scott? Leotards for eunuchs, an overcoat for nuns, a rubber for a protestant . . .
We really know what the Mexicans are for, slave laborers for the local 'Cowboys', and macho fighters to kill the homosexuals for the evangelists; also, the U.S. Army needs more bodybag material to safeguard (Iraq) and explore (Iran) for more oil. Additionally, it keeps the inner-city blacks and poor whites busy with yet another tried and true tradition, another race to kill and fight with, of course 'necessitating' the buildup of yet more police forces and prisons.
Keep the 'diverse' peasants fighting for the grape-picking and house-cleaning job, whilst the rich man sits back and gets richer, makes more laws, and more guns . . .
capitalism 101
But I did once know a beautiful senorita named Juanita in Sedona (actually Cottonwood); fiery and beautiful she was . . .
Anyone want to illegally smuggle me into Sweden (heck even legally would be fine) . . .
Now let us hath some poetry . . .
Craig -
Who here loves you more than I do?
Peace,
Scott.
Scott, what sort of socialistic dogmas do ye speek of? I contend that we, US, me and you, and everybody else would be the government, so we would simply distribute the goods of life, to everybody equally. Unless you and Kristin have about ten million dollars or more, your standard of living would likely increase.
Scott, I get the feeling you would have been a champion martial arts fighter because that is what you wanted to be, or did you become such a great fighter simply for the money?
The passion I sense in you does not NEED money to become alive (in fact, I would contend that financial matters have probably been more of an impediment to you than any other thing in this world). Again, that is, unless you are already fabulously wealthy.
I just happened to have been watching Jack Van Impe the other night (I just lost my cabe TV so channel 7 [PBS] is the only channel I get now: wwaaaaaa), and he was saying how Mammon is the root of much evil in this world, and how one day soon we shall all throw the gold and silver to the ground, being the 'lifeless' minerals that they are, and we will treasure that which is truly most precious: each other.
And then he immediatley says "for fifty dollars I will send you these two books that explains to you how worthless money is."
Some funny stuff brother . . .
We should write a book together, with a comparative analysis of capitalism and Jesusianism, and we could bill it 'the clash of life', money versus God, and who shall win.
The Jesus I preach shall manifest himself in a union of a brotherhood of humankind, a spiritual, cybernetic, and physical union that will last for a thousand years, conversely, the Jesus I see commonly being preached by mainstream evangelicals is going to lead this nation into ever more wars . . .
I am just trying to fulfill Scripture as I see it, that is all brother, I do not know what else to really say.
Economics keeps my, keeps our, people imprisoned within these city walls, with no hope, no future, and with nowhere to go except back to the bar. You say, 'well, they should choose not to go back to the bar,' and then I say to where then shall they go, we have no resources, we have no 'base of operation,' we have no nightly or weekly television show with which to discuss and manufacture new ideas or ways of thinking.
Our selfish egos and economics keeps us divided, but I cannot hope to reach out to other selfish egos if I am economically unable to do so. Economics, money, is the only physical barrier to me reaching out to my, to our, people out there suffering and dying. Oh well, heavy sigh, time to drink I guess . . .
peace
"It's perfectly legitimate for some Americans not to want their country overridden with latinos or indians but they should come out clearly and say it." - Divya
This is another immature and rather irritating attempt to villianize everyone with a viewpoint different than your own.
It is not an emotional question of any race of people overriding this country. The US has a right to protect its borders to ensure its economic stability and the safety of its citizens. It also has a right to further its economic standing worldwide by selling American goods and services in any country that will legally allow it.
This isn't about the cowboys and the indians and the mexicans having a showdown, and "getting back" for something in the past. Letting anyone come into this country, at any time, in any fashion they want illegally without repurcussions is unsound and unsafe domestic policy (for any country).
Please take your biases, ego-driven immaturity, and emotions out of the picture and look at things objectively.
Hi all,
I just got back and will need some time to read through the comments, but am posting Fareed's article since more than one person made mention of it.
Please feel free to post the articles in their entirety.It saves all of us time I think..I have to interview someone in a few minutes but had to fill out this whole form to get a password etc and then get in.
"By Fareed Zakaria
Tuesday, April 4, 2006; Page A23
Seven years ago, when I was visiting Germany, I met with an official who explained to me that the country had a foolproof solution to its economic woes. Watching the U.S. economy soar during the 1990s, the Germans had decided that they, too, needed to go the high-technology route. But how? In the late '90s, the answer seemed obvious: Indians. After all, Indian entrepreneurs accounted for one of every three Silicon Valley start-ups. So the German government decided that it would lure Indians to Germany just as America does: by offering green cards. Officials created something called the German Green Card and announced that they would issue 20,000 in the first year. Naturally, they expected that tens of thousands more Indians would soon be begging to come, and perhaps the quotas would have to be increased. But the program was a flop. A year later barely half of the 20,000 cards had been issued. After a few extensions, the program was abolished.
I told the German official at the time that I was sure the initiative would fail. It's not that I had any particular expertise in immigration policy, but I understood something about green cards, because I had one (the American version) myself.
The German Green Card was misnamed, I argued, because it never, under any circumstances, translated into German citizenship. The U.S. green card, by contrast, is an almost automatic path to becoming American (after five years and a clean record).
The official dismissed my objection, saying that there was no way Germany was going to offer these people citizenship. "We need young tech workers," he said. "That's what this program is all about." So Germany was asking bright young professionals to leave their country, culture and families; move thousands of miles away; learn a new language; and work in a strange land -- but without any prospect of ever being part of their new home. Germany was sending a signal, one that was accurately received in India and other countries, and also by Germany's own immigrant community.
Many Americans have become enamored of the European approach to immigration -- perhaps without realizing it. Guest workers, penalties, sanctions and deportation are all a part of Europe's mode of dealing with immigrants. The results of this approach have been on display recently in France, where rioting migrant youths again burned cars last week. Across Europe one sees disaffected, alienated immigrants, ripe for radicalism. The immigrant communities deserve their fair share of blame for this, but there's a cycle at work. European societies exclude the immigrants, who become alienated and reject their societies.
One puzzle about post-Sept. 11 America is that it has not had a subsequent terror attack -- not even a small backpack bomb in a movie theater -- while there have been dozens in Europe. My own explanation is that American immigrant communities, even Arab and Muslim ones, are not very radicalized. (Even if such an attack does take place, the fact that 4 1/2 years have gone by without one provides some proof of this contention.) Compared with every other country in the world, America does immigration superbly. Do we really want to junk that for the French approach?
The United States has a real problem with flows of illegal immigrants, largely from Mexico (70 percent of illegal immigrants are from that one country). But let us understand the forces at work here. "The income gap between the United States and Mexico is the largest between any two contiguous countries in the world," writes Stanford historian David Kennedy. That huge disparity is producing massive demand in the United States and massive supply from Mexico and Central America. Whenever governments try to come between these two forces -- think of drugs -- simply increasing enforcement does not work. Tighter border control is an excellent idea, but to work, it will have to be coupled with some recognition of the laws of supply and demand -- that is, it will have to include expansion of the legal immigrant pool.
Beyond the purely economic issue, however, there is the much deeper one that defines America -- to itself, to its immigrants and to the world. How do we want to treat those who are already in this country, working and living with us? How do we want to treat those who come in on visas or guest permits? These people must have some hope, some reasonable path to becoming Americans. Otherwise we are sending a signal that there are groups of people who are somehow unfit to be Americans, that these newcomers are not really welcome and that what we want are workers, not potential citizens. And we will end up with immigrants who have similarly cold feelings about America.
"I have given reasons for my opinions which seem to have totally escaped your grasp in your eagerness to condemn " - divya
Its your reasons in this context that are really funny.
If u would have said that india is already overpopulated and incoming immigrants cause more instability - then it would have made much more sense to have the same opinion. But the problem comes when your reasons are based on your prejudices & hatred, like ' they should not be allowed bcoz they chose their country to practise their religion'!!(perhaps the ones who immigrate had a different opinion & didn't want a separate country?)
Then your stance on US is completely opposite and shows your double standards. If you would have stated that illegal immigration in US is ok because it does contribute to the economy or something - would have been much more rational. Rather you showed your opinion was very much based on your hatred and feeling of revenge for US.
[I am not saying I personally agree or disagree with the reasons I stated above, but they don't sound based on prejudice and thus can be used in logical debates]
I admire people with rational reasons. People with prejudices are very dangerous when given power or put in leadership positions - e.g. hitler! I am sure he had his "reasons" to do what he did ;)
Nimita, I have to agree with the double standard part. You will see many Indians having this double standards based purely on religion. It doesn't stop with Immigration alone. Thatz why I always say "Indians - Liberals abroad conservative at home". They have proved this again and again. Such double standards arise due to purely selfish reasons.
Clarification: I used the word "many Indians" very loosely.
An odd odester’s interlude
As a plundering white bull gores the mountainside,
releasing the waters of a poet’s ode
awaken O’ Nature’s great buttered planes
unto humanity’s united soul --- One
Women’s songs,
sung by generous men sacrificing Soma
transfigure the cybernetic kaleidoscope of humanity
and our earthly shells as well
The sun’s shining brilliance making dark light
with piercing minds unifying our collective might
our minds afire
as the chariot’s wheels spin
A waterous child of life rebirthed
by our rich earth
undesiring speech
releasing us all from consuming grief
The golden Seed of Nature’s changing seas
the nourishing sacrifice of NOW
fabulously green and tall
becomes the butter covered grass, ferns, and evergreens
As spying Caleb proclaims the land of milk and honey
flows presently before us, as my graped breath reveals
a 21st century golden bull -- AgniMammon
is ready for sacrifice --- are you . . .
Agni! Agni! Free the poet’s dream
a bird afire released from previous desire
‘by Indra’s cows freed’ drink deeply dear Gotama
the mountains milkous flowing waters
By speech, by nothing, may our inner beings be freed
Well, Illegal immigration is really complicated problem. People are breaking law. And they are getting rewarded with amnesty for their illegal conduct.
Still I am not against illegal immigrants however what about raising Mexican flag in Pro Immigration rallies all over USA. This is like keeping ex wife’s big photos in your house and talking about your ex wife all the time with new wife.I mean this is too much Still I favor Bush , John McCain and Ted Kennedy’s immigration bill.Because we live in capitalist society and if economy is benefiting from cheap labor then I am going to support it.
Nimita :I somewhat agree with you.
Krish : I thought you are in India…Well, you are right, this is free country and people can speak whatever they want however I thought you,divya and other socialist including Deepak Chopra may not comfortable with capitalist society like USA.
Jignesh
The only bill that makes sense is the one that Kennedy and McCain drafted and put forth - every other version of the bill will not take care of the illegal immigration problem - it will just allow immigrants to be here legally for a time, at which time, they will go back to being here illegally.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants here do the jobs that no one else wants. That is a fact.
And I think everyone has the right to try and make his or her life better, and that of their families. The US government needs to officially recognize and honor this part of the American work force.
Personally, I don't have a lot of empathy for those who wait in line to get their US student visas to come here, get their higher education or do their post-docs and internships and then to stay on. So what if you waited two years to get here. Did you risk your life. Did you pay a coyote who cheated you and turned you in instead. Do you have family members who are the targets of political harassment or blackmailing back in your home country?
Perhaps a bigger crime than being here illegally is being here with a higher education that could serve your countrymen and nation. Think Swadesh.
I have known many illegal immigrants whose hearts and work ethics that should put "real" Americans to shame.
In shock and awe at some of the sentiments expressed above.
Jignesh,
If Kathrina is capitalism, I am a proud socialist.
BTW, do you know the difference between what Bush has proposed and what Ted Kennedy has proposed. You cannot support Ted's bill and still claim
"People are breaking law. And they are getting rewarded with amnesty for their illegal conduct."
Hi Craig -
I suspect we have had this conversation concerning money before, but....here's my take on it again:
Money is a symbol, that's all. The Biblical admonition in the New Testament against mammon was the same warning against worshipping idols in the Old testament. Idols and money are both symbols; they are neither good nor bad, but morally neutral. An idol is helpful if it reminds me to keep my attention on the Divine, but a hinderance if I mistake the idol for God. If a fire is burning my house, and I save the idol but neglect my family, I have missed the boat. Money is the same way...it's a tool that simply represents trade; it can be used for good or for ill. But if I worship it...if it becomes my reason for living; if I surrender my values for it, it is a tremendous drag on me. It makes it more difficult to step outside of illusion...it represents the attachment to physical reality.
Christ wanted people to give up their attachment to worldly things and follow a simple path. If one hates money and is angry with capitalism, then one is more attached to money than the richest of Billionaires.
If you are not attached to money, you will see it as a tool, nothing more and nothing less. Acquiring it will be easy and losing it will be easy. There will be no change what-so-ever.
"Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?' For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
This quote from the Sermon on the Mount has been said in every spiritual tradition and every sacred text. It is clearly about non-attachment to earthly things. That attachment includes anger with money. It is just a thing. So don't be so attached, money comes, money goes. By itself it is just a tool, it is we that can turn into a weapon.
Peace,
Scott.
Magenta – Are you by any chance suggesting that all people welcome immigrants with open arms? I am willing to bet 50% of the U.S. hates immigrants. Kindly tell me where I villanize such people. I happen to state that I understand their point of view and you turn around and interpret it to mean that I am villanizing them! What exactly did you read? And where? Show me the quote. Or were you just itching to cuss and swear and did so at the first opportunity?
And I beg to differ. These certainly are emotional questions, albeit they require rational solutions. I agree the U.S. has a right (and duty) to protect its borders. However, the U.S. can never, ever, in a hundred million years have the *moral* right to declare an anti-immigrant stance, even if it has to or needs to. If you don’t feel emotional about the genocide of a culture does not mean others don’t. And I happen to see this current situation as some sort of justice. That’s all I’m saying.
Nimita – The Bangladeshi immigrants in India *are* causing instability. I did not know that had to be spelt out. And religion is a very valid area of concern. Du-uhh.
I notice you want me to state the obvious with regard to the U.S. as well. And why should it have to come down to only illegal immigrants being able to contribute to the economy in the manner they do? Is that not an issue of concern to anyone? US trade practices are very much at the heart of this matter. And you see hatred when I point this out? By the way, I happen to like the U.S. You must be full of hatred yourself so you can only see hatred in my motives. As for the Hitler analogy – pleeeez.
And here's what double standards look like: (1) It's okay for the Indians to commit genocide but it's not okay for the US to do so. (2) It's okay for the Indians to price gouge but it's not okay for the US to. From this framework, you're the one with the double standards because you think it's okay for India to be inflicted with problems in spite of the fact that India helped Bangladesh in good faith but you don't think Bangladesh has any obligation to reciprocate the goodwill.
Dear Scott - your last post was really good and really it. thank you and best wishes.
Scott,
I'd say you have won the debate over Craig...on this one, anger is sometimes a waste of time...sometimes not. Do you want to be good? or effective? If your not efficient with eternity, it will turn into a fleeting moment, like chasing your tail! And your having so much fun, you forget what time it is...then you remember, your on vacation!
If life is only a graceful gesture, as I believe it is, then we're always "on vacation"! I find I'm in a much better mood all day if I wake up thinking this way...instead of waking up worrying about the world's problems...such as capitolism, Craig. Or illegal immigration...
By the way ,Craig, Wow! Good poetic, Cosmic cartoon-like, I'd thought someone slipped me the Soma Syrup, kaleidescopic visions of pleasure! Keep writing...Dog Pound...Ooh!Uuh!Oh!
I work, lucky me, with immigrants from (no bias order intended)Mexico, Columbia, Chile, Ukraine, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Africa, and more at a Japanese Plant. I really don't care if they're legal or not...if they work with me, I expect them to "carry their weight" and work on speaking English. I would if I were to stay in they're country for an extended period of time!
Some people are lazier than others, a lot of people don't give a shit about the quality of their work! I know "Pride" is a sin, but why not make your work something your parents , at the least, could be proud of?
Another sermon accomplished, Father!
me2
Woooops! I've made a mistake Father, please forgive me,again...and again...again...hurts so good..."their" not "they're" numbskull! From me2 U, Dad!
I concur with much of what you say about money in and of itself. It has been a useful means by which to conduct trade, alas, rendering impotent the very phrase ‘free-trade,’ and of placing value upon naturally occurring resources, and therein lies the very fallacy of economic value. The value of oil right now is unparalleled in today’s world, and ‘we’ are killing for this most precious of commodities at this very moment. The economics of supply and demand, demand that certain people will, and are, benefiting from taking over the oil fields, especially when WE pay for the war. So the oil companies and security companies are making bank from our banking accounts, and from whatever benefits they garner for themselves over there as well.
The ‘guaranteed’ oil supply does benefit us all, but only a few people are making vast sums of money from it’s use. Is this fair? Or, just because ones grandfather shot or hung some Indians and Mexicans, stole their land, and that selfsame land was a sea of oil, future family gains immense power because of previous injustice, and then makes laws saying ‘you newcomers cannot do this, this, and this, but you can work on my ranch, but you will need to pay for insurance first . . .” And this is fair?
For example, the Forbes, Rockefellers, Kennedys, and Bushes; their father's fathers got immensely wealthy, through illegal means and war-making, and then they buy the political arena of their area, and viola, the same people are senators, congressman, and presidents, generation after generation, making the law as benefits them.
And of course it works on the local scale the same way, with the families that first homesteaded this land from the Indians, the Cowles, Blacks, Hagadones, Pleses, and Robinsons, setting up the local government, and allowing people into their ranks they deem suitable, and casting the ‘others’ like my grandfather and his father, into their wars and dungeons (the silver mines) . . .
Leaving my 4th generation drunkard by eleven ass with little hope, nor little opportunity, and then throw on a couple of stupid felonies, and bam, I am officially knocked out of contention for even the humblest of jobs, and denied entrance into the local law school naturally (and I am not the only one to experience these things) . . .
So I am condemned to slavery in a ‘free’ country, the government itself will not aid me in acquiring gainful employment, same goes with the ‘private sector,’ and in fact, this government will not even allow me to kill for their oil, and they want their school loan money back with interest even . . .
Alright enough! Sorry man just feeling a little frustrated so my argumentative rationalization is lacking right now: no Masters for me, can’t find a job, got bills bills bills, and my weak desperation is crawling me back into the damn alcoholic box which is not killing me quick enough (what we really need are public euthanasia chambers dammit . . .). Ah, but no, that is illegal too . . .
peace brother
Let's not drag India into the picture since the issue is about America, which is a very Very different country, culture and society compared to India.
Magenta, I agree with your point that it's common sense for a country to not ignore illegal behavior. However, there is such a thing as prosecution within a reasonable timeframe after a crime was committed. So I don't agree with penalizing people who came in say 10 years ago (not sure what the statute of limitation is here). They should have been prosecuted within the statute limit.
For the future, the crucial need is to pinpoint the causes of so much Mexican immigration (I don't see the same problem with Canada, for instance). If it's cheap labor for American farmers and the lure of American prosperity for Mexicans, that's never going to change till Mexico and the US reach similar wage or prosperity levels. It's unsustainable for a society to have such a large inflow of foreigners, so legalization don't seem like a good option in the long run. The guest worker program is totally bogus because Mexican workers won't opt for it if they can continue to come in and live and work without a time limit on their stay.
Brother Craig,
You wear yourself out, and I wish you would come and join in the place and space, where you will not 'find' politicans, and corruption, and anger inducing scenarios.
Certain kinds of Death - don't seem bad at all.
Die to your need for escape through alcohol. Die to the need to transform the US government.
Your compassion will make you die to wanting to die physically. Life is precious. You will be amazed what transformation can take place in you. Start in yourself, and watch a miracle happen.
With love,
~ Kate
I am not making any suggestions about who likes and who doesn't like immigrants.
Nobody should be allowed to remain in this country illegally, because this is poor economic and domestic policy.
Immigration reform through more legal venues (i.e. policy change) will perhaps be a more viable and respectable option in the future for those wishing to move here and have a go at the American dream.
Cheers,
HK
Secular Indian - I agree wholeheartedly with everything you wrote. And specially the point about not dragging India into the mix.
"because you think it's okay for India to be inflicted with problems in spite of the fact that India..." - divya
really? when did i think that? pls don't create ideas to mislead everyone.
"The US totally deserves to be overridden by immigrants. First off, they usurped the land from the Native Americans and have no right to it. They also stole California from the Mexicans. Such sweet justice that Mexicans are slowly taking California back."- divya
"how do you know my only purpose in life is not to loot these looters and that's the reason I'm here." - divya
pardon me if i thought that you don't like US. I think many people on the blog thought so ( too many comments to quote).
where is that place Kate, where is it?? And can I bring my people, my Native 'American' brother who is too drunk to even talk,
can he come too. Sure, we may have gotten a little drunk, and gotten a little high, but if we didn't feel so RAPED I am sure I could get alot of us to be really cool.
We are not bad people, if given half of a chance . . .
Yet liverous burns and fleeting time, and money, deny me, DENY US, generation after generation . . .
f**k
peace
Brother Craig,
If I could have you come into My presence Once, and if you would bring your brothers, high, low, scourged by society, and join with me, in the circle of healing, I promise you, you would be transformed, in the blink of an eye. It's that powerful an experience.
My question to you is .... do you believe this is possible? Do you believe you can discard your past, in such a way, as to seemingly never have had it happen?
Do you believe you can be free of the US government, and this particular administration, and with its justifying actions?
Your value and the value of your brothers and sisters, has no connection to the world you are currently engrossed in.
It will take a kind of strength, a courage and willingness to Believe in something stronger than your current beliefs and opinions.
We can shatter your bondage forever...
If you really want this badly enough.
With love,
~ Kate
Craig, I don't know if your posts are tongue-in-cheek, presenting a strawman, or subtle humor. On the Web, and my not being American, it's hard to tell. But taken at face value, your posts are a sad blame-everyone-for-my-ills rant+whine combos.
Only You have the power to change Yourself and Your life, no one else. Happy Drinkin'!
"because you think it's okay for India to be inflicted with problems in spite of the fact that India..." - divya
Nimita: "really? when did i think that? pls don't create ideas to mislead everyone."
You act like you understand that there are problems associated with BG infilteration. In spite of this you accuse me of double standards when I claim that India should be protectionist about it borders. Perfect example of your own double standards. Or else you should be able to provide an explanation for why you believe BG's who are creating havoc, and are in a deliberate ploy to expand their borders should not be considered a threat by India. Bearing in mind of course that India has been helpful to BG but any expectation of the same from them is considered double standards (just to reiterate your own double standards once again.
As for your second post, I happened to clarify it to Kate later on. Or did you deliberately miss that? Please try and recognize rhetoric when you see it. Or do you seriously think I'm sitting here looting the country? If so, do your duty and call the cops or you are an accomplice in crime. And what are your thoughts on genocide by the way. Do you love it?
Once we start talking about crimes...we should probably clear our schedule. And bring our mirrors.
Divya,
really... there is no point answering you...but i guess i'll repeat things for the last time...
I think u should re-read my post, i did not take a stance on anything, except in my first post where i said illegal is illegal.
I just said that please come up with more rational reasons than 'BG infiltration is wrong bcoz they wanted another country' which seems very prejudice based - I gave an example like India is overpopulated n infiltration causes instability - which infact goes for all immigrants to India and ofcourse india shoudl be protectionist against its borders.. (ur prejudice based opinion then goes only for BG, and thus ur not thinking really about India with it - ur thinking about bangladesh's obligations)
but then doesnt the same go for US about protecting its borders? which is not ur opinion - hence the fact that ur showing double standards... i guess u should confirm the meaning of having 'double standards' i guess ur a little weak on that...
i dont think i can make it simpler than that, and really don't wanna engage in further meaningless & immature discussions.
Divya....sweetheart....this would be one of those 'hellacious' arguments!! You'd go homicidal....I'd laugh my ass off at your fire!
Your thinking in most of these posts is antithetical to just about everything I believe, but for some reason...I just like you!
I'm enjoying a couple of silences on this blog. One is about the ports....you preachers of tolerance and love...watched as your favorite lib politicians went 'xenophobically' (new word!!) out of their minds with joy because they thought they had a chance to 'outbush' bush on a security issue....not much said on here about that....think maybe there was a little bit of political opportunism going on?? The party of Deepak, who thinks we have no enemies...found one when it was convenient!! Shazaam!! Secondly, on this immigration issue....the prez has a pretty liberal stance, and has had...but no way would anyone on here give him credit for that! I don't think he deserves credit for it personally....but I'd think y'all would do it... I guess the personal animus is just too deep!! I'm loving it!!
It's a beautiful day here in Kentucky! I'm gonna fire up my big zero turn mower, get my ipod, light a big stogy, and mow all afternoon!! Kids are on springbreak this week.. think we'll go fishing tomorrow!
Everything is beautiful...in it's own way...
norm
This is why the Bangladeshi illegal immigrant situation is 100% different from the Mexican illegal immigrant situation.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?storyID=2006-04-05T100644Z_01_DEL217880_RTRUKOC_0_US-INDIA-ARRESTS.xml
"Indians - Liberals abroad conservative at home"
At the surface, you are right in this characterization. Of course, both are labels given by the media. They mean totally different things when coupled with the ground realities. I mean to call the Congress party in India "liberals" belongs to the humor thread? Many successful Indian intellectuals in the US seem to support the BJP back home and the Dems out here. I believe the reason they do that is because they hate the "minority" pandering in India (the 49.5% reservation issue is currently raging wild). And they hate the overt militarization and anti environment face of the Repubs. To lump these differing issues as "double standards" is disingenuous to say the least.
Back to the topic, the illegal immigrants in the US serve a needed role in the society - that of low wage workers. One empathizes with their protests when they say "we clean your bathrooms and do the other jobs none of you want to do, and then you deny us rights". The illegal immigrants in India don't fill any role and further stress the semblance of an infrastructure that broke years ago. One can empathize with them for moving to a relatively better society only if they embrace those ideals that made that society better.
All ye Indo liberals, here is my question. If all Bangladeshi immigrants can be termed terrorists and stopped from India because of few bad apples in them, then all immigrants can be stopped from USA because Mohd. Atta and 18 other hijackers are immigrants, many drug gang members are immigrants, I have read news about many Indians who had committed the crime of killing people, etc. If Bangadeshi immigrants are no for India, there is nothing wrong in US saying no to all immigrants. If you want US to allow immigrants, then keep your mouth shut about Bangladeshi immigrants. What a shameful double standards these Indians have. If you can come to US for a better life, what is wrong in Bangladeshi coming in for a better life. There are bad apples coming into US along with you. Similarly, there are bad apples coming in with Bangladeshis. It is unavoidable. Such cheap double standards are hall mark of many Indians. It is shameful and disgusting.
Again, as I said earlier, I am using "many indians" loosely.
norm, good to see you back buddy. I missed you a lot in our discussions before I absconded for 2 months on business issues.
Somebody spoke about Bangladeshi immigrants causing instability in India. If the conservatives in US say that Mexicans are causing instability in US, it is cheap christian tactic. If Indians give similar attributes to Bangladeshi immigrants, it is wisdom and they cannot be even called conservatives. Whoa, isn't it called Hypocrisy?
Vedant,
"Many successful Indian intellectuals in the US seem to support the BJP back home and the Dems out here. I believe the reason they do that is because they hate the "minority" pandering in India"
Dude, it is funny. First, an intellectual cannot support BJP. If anyone supports them, he is not an intellectual. None of the academics support BJP and its tactics. Just because herds of H1Bs here support BJP doesn't mean intellectuals are supporting them. Second, you say that you don't like Congress party because of its minority pandering. Though I don't agree with your terminology, I will accept it for argument sake. If you don't like minority pandering, then you shouldn't like Democrats also as they are also supposed to do minority pandering according to many white males in this country. Under such a scenario, people who support democrats here and support BJP at home can only do for two reasons
1) They don't understand politics
2) They are hypocrits. They support BJP at home because they are majority at home. They support democrats here because they are minority in US.
This is a clear case of ignorance or double standards.
I said "One can empathize with them for moving to a relatively better society only if they embrace those ideals that made that society better".
If the majority of Bangladeshi immigrants are embracing the ideals, we have no beef do we?
Why stop at Bangladeshis. Should we also allow poor uneducated Pakistanis to immigrate illegaly to India due to economic compulsions? Hasn't there been a correlation between poor uneducated Pakistanis and Madrassas?
Make no mistake - if even a few bad-apple Mexicans had conspired to blow up churches in the heartland, there would be no illegal immigrant debate in congress.
Ah but then we know Americans, like me, are hypocrites :-)
"If the majority of Bangladeshi immigrants are embracing the ideals, we have no beef do we?"
This is illogical. Do you behave like Americans just because you are in America? Come on. I can show millions of Hindus who eat beef and other meat stuff. Well, expecting sense from Hindu fundamentalists is like expecting sense from evangelicals or islamic fundamentalists. No point.
BTW, 19 hijackers of 9/11 are all immigrants. In spite of that millions of immigrants are coming into this country. Come on. Talk logic.
Many people talk about not comparing US scenario with Indian scenario saying they are culturally different. In fact, there is one big difference between Hindu culture and christian and muslim cultures.
In both Christian cultures and Muslim cultures, the support for religious fundamentalists will be predominant among people with lesser education and people who come from states that are not cosmopolitan in nature. However, in Hindu culture, the support for religious fundamentalists come only from educated people and people who live in somewhat cosmopolitan places. This is due to the failed education system India has. This is the reason why you see so many people in this forum (mind it only educated Indians visit this forum) who have conservative ideas when it comes to issues in India. We cannot blame them but we can only blame the education system that has mass produced people who cannot reason.
Nimita - You bet I noticed that you did not state your own opinion. Either you simply don’t have the guts to or you don't have a brain. All you can do is heap insults upon other's opinions. Seems to me that name-calling is all you can do. Here's a list from your posts:
(1)your so funny! (2) ur always ruled by ur personal grudges & emotions and (3) what u say makes no sense sometimes. (4) Prejudiced (5) Hitler (6) Double standards (7) Meaningless (8) Immature.
Not to mention the fact you keep telling me how I ought to be thinking and what I ought to be saying. And in spite of the fact that I clarified my position you keep repeating what I ought to have said. Who could have imagined certain people were so clueless that they needed every single thing spelled out. It would be helpful to all if you made your point without getting into my character. Ooops I forgot, you don't have a point to make. Never mind.
Why hello Norm! You bet our Prez has a liberal stance on this issue. Who'd help him clear the brush on his wonderful ranch otherwise? And how about all the additional taxes to be collected for all the bombs we need to make. Slurp. Eleven million mexicans, let's see how many dollars per year would that be . . .
I can laugh with you on the ports issue though.
Hi Vedant - You make good points. I was talking to one of my Canadian friends the other day and he was grumbling his head off about the amount of taxes they have to pay. Canada is so underpopulated and it's a huge country. So the tax burden falls on very few people for a very large country. No wonder they are so liberal about immigration. The U.S. has similar issues though not quite as bad as Canada so their immigration policy is a lot stricter. India on the other hand, does not need additional labor. It can barely find work or even a place to live for the people it already has. Only the truly retarded would think that the situation is the same as the U.S. But we have many of those on Intent as you can see.
Ha ha ha! Krish, we are obviously having communication problems. I meant "we have no beef" as "me and you having no disagreements on the matter". No underhanded pun was intended on the sensibilities of Hindus with respect to eating beef. That being said, if you care, please reread what I wrote.
I think that a majority of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants care two hoots about religious freedom and tolerance for people of other faiths. You seem to disagree. Lets leave it at that, and free up the space for debating the issue in the US, which is not the same.
Yup, I overlokked what you meant.
As far as immigration is concerned, it is one and the same. Certain sections of the society not wanting people from other country to come in. Trying to say US issue is different from Indian issue is selfish in nature. We cannot have different standards based on whether we are at the receiving end or not.
I am against the attempts of conservatives to stop immigration into US and I am also against the attempts of Hindu fundamentalists to stop immigration in India. There is just one issue called illegal immigration. We need to approach it in the same way everywhere.
Divya, Divya, Divya....my respect for your vast intellect is suffering a blight....the Mexicans don't work on the ranch...that's what the Secret Service is for!! :-) As for the taxes the illegals pay....that's one of the issues....they don't..at least most of them....all this migrant farm labor goes untaxed...so if we'll make'em legal, we can tax'em, then we can get to building bombs, and drop'em on innocent Iraqi's or whomever y'all say we drop'em on!!
Krish, good to hear from you too! I can't figure something out...I virtually never agree with you, I hardly ever agree with Divya...yet, you two never agree on anything....hmmmm!! Oh well....love to both of you!!
Have agreat day...I'm outa here for a few!!
norm
The length of discussions here is directly proportional to the the probability of the posts being about Muslim-Hindu problems. Starting to get tiresome..
Norm, it's raining here in California. One of the rainiest winters I've ever seen. You have a great day now!
"As for the taxes the illegals pay....that's one of the issues....they don't..at least most of them....all this migrant farm labor goes untaxed...so if we'll make'em legal, we can tax'em, then we can get to building bombs, and drop'em on innocent Iraqi's or whomever y'all say we drop'em on!!"
Norm - But that's exactly what I said!! What kind of grass are you mowing? I'll have some too.
Craig -
Your "rage against the machine" thoughts and postings are interesting, but you have really set up a bit of a straw dog here. Consider what you are really angry about rather than pointing fingers at those dead for generations.
To be perfectly blunt: you are mad at you. You made the choice to drink and/or do drugs. You made the decision to commit a crime or several crimes. So, you have made some bad decisions in life...no big deal, we all make bad decisions from time to time. And those bad decisions always have repercussions to them.
Now the question is, what decisions can you make that are going to lead you to more happiness, abundance, health and love?
Blaming the system and rest of the world is convenient. You don't have to take responsibility for you actions or choices, you don't have to do anything...all you have to do is wait until the rest of the world changes. Guess what my brother?: You're going to be waiting the rest of your life. If you set it up so that others have to change before you can be happy, then you are a slave to others and to circumstances beyond your control. The sad part is is that you are a slave that has shackled and caged himself. You hold the key in your left fist and are begging everyone outside your cage to let you free. But they don't have the key to your cage...they only have the key to their own.
Let yourself free, stop waiting for the world to be different and make yourself different instead.
We don't have any choice over what cards in life we are dealt, we only have a choice as to which cards we play. You've been dealt some shitty cards, but you have also been dealt some pretty damn good ones. You have a brilliant mind and a gift for language.
You have the key...let yourself out of the cage for God's sake.
Peace,
Scott.
Krish -
I can see where you are coming from and appreciate your consistent view on immigrations. However, I have to agree with Divya on this. I don't think that every situation can be tackled the same way in every situation. The U.S. and India are different especially when it comes to population. If India's economy is not able to support its current population, it is not fare to her citizens OR to those wanting to immigrate to India to further strain her economy. The U.S. has an economy that demands more "unskilled" and skilled labor. Market forces should be key to any countries immigration policy, and it just doesn't make sense to further load India's labor force.
Peace,
Scott.
"you did not state your own opinion.Either you simply don’t have the guts to or you don't have a brain."
LOL
so it takes guts and brains to put up an opinion on intent?
having some complexes here are we ? ;) (since u almost always put up an opinion)
"....made your point without getting into my character" - dviya
yup, ur right, i should not be judging u. but wait.. didn't u say before that its ok to judge?
having some contradictions here!
"All you can do is heap insults upon other's opinions" - divya
Let me quote something from u too....
-certain people were so clueless
-truly retarded
-don’t have the guts to or you don't have a brain"
In need of introspection here, are we? :)
anyway, its all good. Its always amusing to read some of ur posts.
Nimita - what do you expect after all of what you said? You think you're the only one who's going to be doing the name calling?
The remark about judgement was made in a certain context (I forget what). I certainly couldn't have said let's all come out here and call each other names. Trust you to completely miss the point and pull it up out of the blue. Anyway, I'm done with this exchange. I hope in the future if you need to comment on what I say you will stick to the issues and not simply let loose a long string of adjectives.
Scott, well said.
I think the US illegal immigrant situation can be solved reasonably well. Here is my solution:
1. Create an existing low-skilled worker non immigrant category only to be filled by people already in the US, legal or not. Impose a number restriction on this category (like H-1s) based on supply-demand and considering stats like the number of illegal immigrants believed to be in the US at this point with the aim to absorb a majority. Also impose a time restriction for people on this status, starting now. If employability based permanent residency is not applied for during the time period, the individual has to leave the country (but can reenter as a new applicant).
2. Create another category like H-1, for absorbing new lower skilled workers into the country. Legally. Sponsorship may be via companies or individuals. Like H-1 sponsorship, sponsoring entities must pay an application fee for people sponsored and this cannot be passed on to the person being sponsored. The workers must be payed at least minimum wage. Make paying less than minimum wage a prosecutable crime.
3. Provide a reasonable yearly quota for allowing permanent resident applications from 1 and 2. Provide incentives for familiarity with the language, and efforts at education, trade school, polytechnics etc.
4. Allow direct immigration applications to absorb people already married to permanent residents or citizens.
5. Create a process for automatic immigration of people who have lived here at least 20 years and can prove they have worked for at least 10 of those. Also allow people with serious disabilities that occurred before the date such law is enacted, to apply in this category.
6. Spend less on the military, instead push money into immigration and border security so that illegal immigration is curbed and America regains a working legal immigration bureaucracy. Everyone knows that the legal mechanism is itself currently broken.
This should directly confront the issue, provide means of absorption of the low income and generally hard working illegal immigrants, and be mostly fair to people grinding through the arduous legal immigration process.
Vedant -
Sounds like a plan to me.
Peace,
Scott.
Scott, verily your words ring of truth, as SI cut me to the quick also. Kate, thank you too sister!
I do not want to disrupt the consistency of this threads subject matter, so I will catch up with you 'guys' on the Open Thread k.
peace all
"if you need to comment on what I say you will stick to the issues and not simply let loose a long string of adjectives." - divya
didn't u mention before that u weren't ok with me telling u what to do? and now u can tell me what to do ...umnn contradictions again!!
[I feel our conditioning effects what we say about the issues btw]
perhaps u could confirm the meaning of being judgemental from somewhere too.... name-calling is certainly a subset of it(although that was never my intention)
oooo wait, u mentioned earlier ur not good at math, sorry confirm the meaning of subset too. (I'm sure math doesn't require brains afterall).. wait isn't logic a part of math ?..so thats why u r...
sorry sorry sorry... i guess i'm a slave to my own conditioning too, gotta stop analyzing & judging! :)
Nimita - This is the second time you've done it - used a partial quote to distort what I say. You left out the beginning of my sentence which started with "I hope". By removing that part of my sentence you changed the meaning of my sentence from a request to an order. And then you use it to attack. This is a highly deceitful tactic. Without the deceit you don't have a point to make. But then we've been over that before.
Scott,
I am talking with Market forces in mind. In the current booming economy, it is becoming tough to get labor for low level work. Even though there are many poor people still around without jobs, they are not ready to do some really difficult jobs. This is where the illegals from Bangladesh fits in. These illegals work in construction companies, menial job related to cleaning up sewage (BTW, in India it is still cleaned by human beings in many places. Remember, the infrastructure in India is bad), etc. The poor "Indians" are not ready to work on such jobs even if they don't have any other jobs. Such jobs are being filled by illegals. I wouldn't agree that the situation is altogether different though they are not exactly similar. I can bet that there won't be so much fuss about illegal immigration in India if the illegals are not muslims. Why don't they make a big issue of Nepalese people coming in? Why don't they make a big issue of Srilankan tamils coming in (even after the war between govt. and rebels have subsided)? Giving economic viability is just yet another way to cover up their double standards and religious bias. Let these people who speak about economic viability go to India and get laborers for certain menial tasks. They won't get a single person for the amount of money these guys are willing to shell out. Why can't they apply the same logic of mexicans laborers (they do menial jobs for cheap thereby helping US economy) to Bangladeshi laborers and allow them to fill in those jobs which Indians (including those poor people without jobs) refuse to take up. If somebody claims that this statement (Indians refusing to take up menial jobs) is false, I am willing to produce proof proving that this is the case. I myself saw it during my visit to India last month.
norm, the reason is simple. You apply conservative principles everywhere. I apply the same liberal principles everywhere. But people who are in the opposite sides of both of us use the principle of "liberals abroad but conservatives at home". Honestly speaking, this is the reason.
Thank you everyone. Its a bit jampacked since yesterday and I'm going to be away till late at night, today as well but just wanted to acknowledge the posts.
will write my thoughts as soon as I have some breathing time tomorrow morning.
Krish,
thats interesting, i didnt know that poor indians would reject any kind of jobs.
Divya,
Just to mention somehing about Canada...
Did ur friend also tell u about FREE HEALTH in Canada and the fact that much of northern Canada is covered in ice? (I hope the government doesn't spend money to maintain the ice caps).
Did he tell u about RESP?(Registered Education Savings Plan), about Child Tax Benefits, about OSAP (interest free loans for students), Worker's Compensation, the Old Age Security Act and RRSP(Registered Retirement Savings Plan)?
Canada is a Welfare State.. its policies are much different from US govt. Taxes are not a burden on Canadian citizens and permanent residents if you see the returns and because of that there is much less disparity compared to US. We are underpopulated, but we need legal immigrants, not illegal who won't pay taxes.
Nimita - I'm aware that Canada has generous social policies although I did not know the technical names that you detail. In fact I was tempted to move to Canada when I heard they even cover Ayurveda (just kidding). And yes, we're talking about why they need *legal* immigrants to prop up the country.
Sorry to barge in, but let us not play up Canada's social policies as "gifts."
Most people ON assistance with children, including disability programs; lose half the child-tax credit; off of their monthly checques. So, technically, the working poor families of Canada, are entitle to extra child-benefit; but, technically again, families on disability or welfare's children, are depraved of same.
Healthcare? I have a dead stomach(7yrs) and docs have to manipulate the "system" to enable me to "have" losec!! But, if I had "only" an ulcer, which I do, the size of Manhattan; I would qualify!?
I have glaucoma(tunnel vision) and, I qualify(as on disability) for eye-tests, once every two years! I have to do mountains of paper-work, to get twice annual eye scans, in another province! I had to fight, for the cost of that scan, to be covered; including the trip's gas.
Being my son and I are criticly ill; we fight constantly, for a $67 dollar a month, each increase, in dietary allowance! I just re-won mine a few weeks ago; now have to re-apply for his. The stress, the bullshit; is immeasurable.
WE can work; and claim wages. In my case, If I design and make money; I must claim it, as a wage income. IF I don't go over a base-amount on a monthly basis; I lose nothing in doing so. currently if one does, they lose 75% over the base amount.. come Nov. 2006; this will NOW change, down to only 50%(halleluiah!)
OSAP-post-college grad; Is when my stomach went atrophic-unable to work; my loans went into arrears. Within 2 years, I was bankrupt, lost my car(ant-activists), and spiraled downwardly in many regards..but, always gaining momentum, towards purpose?
To this day; OSAP will not grant me absolution. They will NOT forgoe my loans; even though I will "never" work full-time; if part-time; it will be a blessing! I applied, I was denied.
OSAP Collections, like to call me regularly; they yell at me, call me loser(in tackier terms) and call me a bad Mom. They have NO mercy, and to them, I am a defunct loan, and nothing more valuable than that!!
This summer, my son leaves for college; he's accepted just this past Monday!! AS he embarks on a new, prosperous future; this is what the Canadian Gov't will do "to me."
My income, will decline no more, and no less than between $650-$700 dollars a month, instantly!! I will be allowed $425 dollars a month, inclusive for rent, heat and hydro costs. I will have about $190 dollars a month left, for food/cabs to hospital(regular) clothes, personals, blah blah.
I will lose, child-tax credit, child-support; and a huge piece of a disability income.
I do not intend to bite the hand that feeds me; but, let me tell you; Canada's social programs are not a free ride; nor easy to get in most cases. They have the "right" to enter my home, without notice. They have the right, to stop payments, under any "possible" cause to investigate.
They own you and de-power you... what is so cool, about that?
sorry for my "intrusion" on this issue on Canada's social programs, Kavita; but, being in CAN, living in rural northern Ont; land of ice and snow(still), and on the disability system of deprivation; I had to set some records a little more clarifyingly clear.
Let us not forget too; that it is often the "person" behind the desk, or phone; whom holds your whole life, in their hands!! IF they are prejudiced people in any form-one, is literally "screwed" threw the system, by leaps and bounds.
North
so, considering I am disabled, half white, half-Ojibway... I get the "screwed" road, more oft than not... and that's the truth of it!! Come this summer, I will be living $75 dollars a month, above my "allotted" $425 conclusive for living expenses? lol
WE realize, ppl are tired of tax's going to keep us alive; well, we are tired, of hearing about it!! What are we to do, simply vanish; for money-sake? lol
Living on the system in Canada, is like sitting o a barbed-wire fence!! WE are "given" but, what they take from us; is priceless!!(identity, self-empowerement, dignity, peace, freedom to prosper, etc.)
North
Nimita, they do. In fact, I even support their actions. Why should they clean other person's sewage just because they are poor. I am happy that they are moving out of their slave mentality. At the same time, I used it to show that Bangladeshi immigrants are filling in to do such jobs which Indians refuse to do. I feel for those Bangladeshi's too. I just used it to highlight that they are not encroaching into the jobs which Indians want to do (there might be a few exceptions but it is the case of Mexican immigrants too).
Scott, my philosophy is "countries without borders" (though not practical) and I welcome any immigrant into India just like I am for immigrants coming into US. I don't believe in instability. If the population instability is to cause India to go down, it would have brought it down long back. The beauty of India is the way in which it maintains the equilibrium even under utter chaos. Such small additions to instability will not make it implode. It is just a Hindu fundamentalist tactic to scare people. I will never buy into such arguments.
North - I totally understand. I'm actually anti-welfare state and Canada is almost one. But you can trust liberals to screw up anything they lay their hands on. Heard the new administration is different. Let's see how it plays out. Wish you all the best in your dealings with the bureaucracy. (They do still cover Ayurveda though :))
Scott - I trust you're not going to fall for the alleged beauty of how India maintains its equilibrium. Half of India is undernourished and under-educated if not totally starving and illiterate.
Bull. That doesn't answer the fact that those under nourished doesn't want to clean your sewage which Bangladeshi's do.
North,
I've read ur stories before, and I feel really sad. But I think if you were in US or in India, things would have been much worse for you.( I remember we had a talk about comparison of corruption in India vs Canada).
I know the "person" behind the desk or on the phone is not always the right one.
I have met doctors who manipulate the system too... the doctor I used to goto, did not give us prescription for two problems at the same time - so for e.g. if you have a skin problem and cold, he would prescribe for cold, and tell u make another visit for the skin problem.
But then there are bad people everywhere.
OSAP last year reduced my loan by a couple of thousand dollars, because my loan exceeded some particular amount for one year. I am not sure since you're outta school, what policies apply to you.
I hope things get better for you. Have you done all your research about things? Really, can nothing be done?!
Divya, without liberalism; Canada's disabled, disfunctional and aged, and illiterate would succumb to dpeths of desparity, as in third world nations. Our current "leader" wants to abolish the marijuanna(decriminalization) law. Now, cancer/glaucoma and other chronic disease sufferers, unable to take synthetic, legal drugs; will have to "support drug trade" on the street; so how "dumb is that alread"? I qualify for a pot-ticket; but, I don't get it; b/c I would then become target to jeuvenille, and/or gang related theivery "of" it. It's a catch-22..
ONce on the system, you relinquish all rights and freedoms; as one percieves them to fundamentally, or conceptually be.
I am pro-support; even long before I became technically "disabled." I was married, 15 years, I have worked, I am still legally married; though seperated 15 years.
Nimiti; yes indeed; I'm sure my story is repetitive; but, I could not sit by and allow falsification of the glories of social systems in Canada; that barely penetrate a persons daily expenses. It would be wrong, to invite others; to swim in an already unstable system of failures, corruptions, prejudism and deprivation of resource and opportunity; and over-poplulation of people already on that system currently straining to survive, below sub-standard living.
I would be homeless and starved; if not for what I go get/ will get this summer; will only be a reflection of tax-payer greed; not my minute "need" to survive on fundamental sustenance. thankyou, my dearest, healthiest, strongest peers..I am nothing, without you now.
I would give "anything" to be healthy. I would do anything, to ride above these issues in my life; but, how does one disconnect the negatory vibrations; while striving to remain emotional/mental/soul-neutral; with diseases and social systems which condemn us, simultaneously?
How does one maintain an attitude of choice, and self-empowerement, went control over our lives and choices, are no longer ours?
which has to be severed first? the financial strain; or thoughts that deal with it?
Of course, I've tried everything..and then, some. I even gave it all, back to God the other day; God, gave it back.
North
Divya, Nimiti; sighhhH - Gosh, I sure didn't explain myself without frustration, and fear being vizible, did I?
Can I make that my extreme point and arguement?(wink)
North
The issue of immigration, whether legal or illegal, always baffles me. Some of the posts are pointing out some very interesting issues-such as, most immigrants who go to the 'lands of opportunity', have ended up doing the jobs that most of the 'legal' population does not want to do.
Why is someone enticed to go to another country for opportunities-primarily for work, however, you have the society enticing them, for primarily cheap labour. We see this happening continously in several countries.
One example of this I have seen is the refugee crisis in Bhutan. Nepali, Indian people have been living and working in Bhutan for the last 30 years or so. They were enticed by the Government for the sake of cheap labour requirements. These immigrants now have children, but are being designated as illegal immigrants. The US and other countries are looking to accept the repatriation of some of these refugees, however, do they not have as much right to be in Bhutan, after 30 plus years?
When the UK, were 'recruiting' immigrants from Commonwealth countries in the 50s, many Asian and Africans went to England with the enthusiasm for a better life. Some were escaping political pressures, others war zones, some even had been expelled (the Indians who were packed off and thrown out by Idi Amin etc etc). They also felt that as the ex colonial power was responsible for several of the problems and lack of opportunities in their countries of origin, they had a right as Commonwelath citizens to settle in these countries. They were welcomed with open arms.
What was interesting about a large number of the immigrants who arrived in the UK in the 50s, was that many were not so well educated and ended up being forced to take up jobs in the service sector, manual labouring etc.
That generation of course wanted to give their offspring the opportunities promised by their new country of residence, and hence worked hard and became successful in the monetary sense.
When it came to the second and third generation of their families, they pushed their children into professional careers such as medicine and law, accountancy etc. SOme now have even entered mainstream politics and are pretty much ensconced in the society.
The argument that a person who has been living 'illegally' in a country should 'go back home'-on a legal level is understood, but on a social level- where do they go? They have given something back to society, and contributed in many ways which are often overlooked. As someone said in one of the above posts, they do the jobs that no-one else wants to do.
Someone I knew many years ago (a British) guy, married a woman of Ghanian descent. She had been studying in the UK from the age of 15. Her life in the UK was pretty settled as far as her education, career and relationship were concerned. Even though she was married to a UK citizen, she was still on a student visa-awaiting her papers. Every 6 months she had to get the visa renewed. One time, there was an issue with her visa, a complication. As a result, she was detained. Within 24 hours she was put on a plane and deported back to Ghana. During this 24 hours, she was not allowed to make any calls, even to her husband. She had very little family in Ghana, was not given any vaccination shots etc etc. There was absolute outrage in the way she was treated by the UK authorities-the media took up her case, and also many NGOs got involved, including Amnesty International. In the end, the couple settled in France, which was the only EU country where both of them could live as husband and wife. She had been designated an illegal immigrant in the UK-and could not return there, even though she had been in the UK for 20 years.
Why do so many people try so desperately to get to another country? Why do they have so many illegal transportation mechanisms-people being loaded into vans-packed in like sardines, attaching themselves to the wheels of an aeroplane, paying thousands of pounds to get into a country through dubious means-risking death etc, because they want a better life for themselves and their children. We see this happening with rapid urbansiation. Many flock to the cities for the want of work. This urban migration is frowned upon by many, but the fact remains that the contribution made to urban society by this migratory workforce becomes critical for its smooth running. The flip side is that the rural areas start to suffer with a decreasing workforce.
How are illegal immigrants sucking society dry? Firstly, if you do not have leagl status, you cannot claim any type of benefit etc etc. Infact it becomes more difficult to survive-as you don;t exist theoretically. So I'm not sure what this argument means? How do you define someone as illegal?
We talk about freedom of movement in the EU, but realistically, its not so easy to move from one country to another. I'm not saying that illegal methods should be used, because inevitably at some point you get caught out-but there should be more honesty about the policies that are being put into place. Immigration policy in the EU is being curbed more and more, that basically, if you are of Asian or African or non-EU Member State nationality it is increasingly difficult to emigrate. Is the world really becoming more tolerant; is it easier to move freely between countries for employment. I'm not sure that it is.
Perhaps this is why someone would use means as
above, because the pull for opportunity and freedom becomes too desperate.
Thank you every one,
It has been a crazy week, and today is no different. I’ll get a breather I guess after the 14th.
Just now had the time to speed read through the posts. Please excuse me of I miss a few points-its darned hot in Atlanta today and I’ve been out in the sun running around.
Divya, I was told the Mayor of El Centro, David Singh Dhillon is a third generation Punjabi Mexican American. Mexico is now one of USA’s largest trade partners-poetic justice in more ways than one..
I thought Vedant’s suggestions were very interesting.
Kristin made a very valid point. Do all of those who come to the US illegally “even have the opportunity to come in legally? How does one get chosen?”
Many of my friends point to the fact that political asylum has been granted to people who don’t deserve it-some men from the Khalistan movement that even their Sikh brethren don’t approve of have come in..Indeed how does one decide?
Patty, what a utopian picture of the world . Wish it was that easily possible.
Scott’s comment “The problem can only be solved by making it easier to enter the United States and easier to stay. They need to make it easier for those without expensive educations or a lot of front money to stay and build their lives. Frankly, these are the people that tend to really make leaps ahead and add to society when given an opportunity.’ Resonated with me..
This is a direct quote from an article I did on the Sikh community and it brings home the fact that it’s not just engineers and doctors who add to an economy. “The first Sikhs came to Canada in 1902. Between 1903 and 1908, over 5000 Punjabis migrated to North America, mostly illiterate and semiliterate laborers from agricultural and/or military backgrounds. The Punjabi immigration to the United States happened because Canadian borders were shut off. The Sikhs who came in, worked as laborers in the lush lands of California and Mexico, many marrying Mexican women and raising mixed families. Others like Valarie’s grandfather waited till they could go back to India and marry a woman from their own community. Later many of them became affluent land owners.
A Sikh entrepreneur, Jagjit Singh, arrived in the U.S. in 1926 and became President of the newly formed India League of American kin. He won over the media and persuaded Congressmen and diplomats to help in the fight for equality and justice, requesting the restoration of citizenship to Indians, denied since 1910. Finally in 1946 Congress passed a bill granting naturalization and immigration quotas for Indians.
It was a decade later that a Sikh farmer by the name of Dalip Singh Saund from an uneducated Sikh family in Punjab, arrived here in 1920 and earned a Ph.D. in Mathematics from Berkeley. Saund went on to become a judge in 1953 and a Congressman in 1956, a feat that went unrepeated until last year when Bobby Jindal won from Louisiana.
After 1965, immigrant laws were modified and a lot of people, who migrated after world war Two, were mostly students, technocrats and businessmen.” It is on the shoulders of those hard working illiterate men that their future generations stand and excel.
North after reading through all that you have had to face, I wonder if anyone would ever want to migrate to Canada even illegally? Life is very lonely and tough for many illegal aliens-alienated and afraid as many perform poorly paying chores. Can an American do their work? Perhaps. Does the American want to? Obviously not-I have seen many Indian restaurant and store owners treating their Indian and Mexican workers fairly poorly along with some Indian business men I know and getting away with it only because their workers are illegally here. I’ve also seen some of my so called law abiding friends turn the other way and let these Mexicans, Indians and recently many Brazilians come and clean their homes, be their house keepers. I’ve been told stories of Indian illegal aliens working long, lonely hours on terrible pay, sleeping in a closet- many go on to contract HIV-the only warmth accessible to them bin the arms of prostitutes.
Kamini your post was very thought provoking. I have heard many stories of racism in Europe, and thought things were changing slowly.
Why do people choose to come here? I don’t know if life is always good for the poor illegal immigrant-but if they work hard they stand a chance of making it, if not for themselves then at least for their children, and yes how does one decide who deserves to stay and who deserves to go? I have somehow always had a hard time looking at this issue as black and white.
Great last para by Fareed Zakaria in his article, where he says- “Beyond the purely economic issue, however, there is the much deeper one that defines America -- to itself, to its immigrants and to the world. How do we want to treat those who are already in this country, working and living with us? How do we want to treat those who come in on visas or guest permits? These people must have some hope, some reasonable path to becoming Americans. Otherwise we are sending a signal that there are groups of people who are somehow unfit to be Americans, that these newcomers are not really welcome and that what we want are workers, not potential citizens. And we will end up with immigrants who have similarly cold feelings about America.”
Dear Kavita,
The candlelight service to honor Andy Aviles is tonight, April 7th. It was 3 years ago today that he was killed in Iraq.
I will go to honor and celebrate a special young man, and to be with his Mom and Dad.
The ties that bind us one to another,
Compassion, Forgiveness, and Love
~ Kate
Dear Kate,
I will get in touch with them soon.
Give them my love and regards
I can't imagine what immigrants must face.. or why they'd choose here, without knowing the hardships. Maybe only a rare few go through the system here, without stress, strain or frustration. one has to be "squeaky"(make noise) to get anything "extra." Like, our diet supplement, and the trip for glaucoma and eye scan out of province..which is always a fight to retain.
This does not even begin, to express the frustrations of medical travel, for even a simple MRI-it took 3 months, to get my re-injured arm done.(still real bad shape-cortisone-->18th-and that was with much begging, even when wounded 2-1/2 years now!!)
OnTopic:
It is a human tragedy; that the people of the world, unite in abusive trade of people's labours; rather than reward them with equal pay and benefit; befitting a human beings needs for sustenance, lodging and appropriate prosperity.
I know, if I did not have to worry about money, and in particular constantly; I would be able to gather rest, and perhaps break the ties, that bind me to frustrate without relenting a breath or a sigh at times.
North
Dear Kavita,
I think it's a mistake and unjust for the US to allow people to come in as workers in extremely low paying jobs and not give them an opportunity to become citizens. It's unfair to take advantage of their labor and not offer them some chance to create a better life for themselves.
I'm still feeling sad for the owner and the immigrant employees of Udupi Restaurant. It was obvious that the employees were happy and treated well. That was part of the enjoyment of eating there. And now those employees have been deported. And after sentencing Chettiar will have to leave as well. I wish there was something I could have done for them.
Love, Kristin
The recent social policy, re: Canada issues, sparked me to look through some of my very old files, for a tidbit of research with actual facts, and documentation, supporting the downward, spiraling, de-powering effect, social reforms in 96-97, have done, to current suffering families in Ontario... North
This is my first, lone parent meeting manifest, with handouts of same, below. It was only 4-years, post Mike Harris Administration-and his Common Sense Revolution. I cannot begin to start, to research the non-repairable damages done, to the well-being of societies most vulnerable families, post social-reform changes of 96-97; of which I took up the torch, to enlighten others of the plight, 1998-2003..it is very rough; I was totally "new" to public speaking/research, etc..and it shows! lol
-- ---
Single Parent Support Group: Meeting One - March 07/2000.
Introduction: President-Donna Sonnenburg
"While researching the changes being made in Social Security Programs one late night, I was looking for an answer, a reason perhaps, for why the definition of “unemployable and disabled” had changed so drastically, increasing the rates of: suicide, addictions, violence and stress-causing physical and emotional illnesses, not to mention despair and helplessness among thousands of lone parent women, whom suffer recurring health crisis, or are unable to find suitable employment to sustain her family and financial obligations, or maybe she cannot be re-educated.
It is clear as women, we are different. It is certain, these differences will become an apparent hindrance in our early middle years as far as health is concerned. It is a fact, we are as resilient as we profess children to be; or, are we? How can we be? We neither have the youth nor energy for its constant continuance. Circumstance deprives us of these energy sources when one becomes a person of illnesses and diseases, particularly if there is a continuance of chronic recurrence, that necessitates medical treatment.
A person inflicted with this sort of constant health crises changes in many ways:
Physically- she must learn to deal with the changes in health and medication side effects, and the dual role of accepting loss of mobility, and loss's of strength, while also maintaining a family and home responsibilities.
Emotionally-she must endure constant changes in emotional states, as the illnesses effect her, and too the apparent decreases in emotional coping resources and capabilities while loss of mobility and quality of life decline.
Mentally-she accesses and questions her quality state of mind, and oftenscrutinizes herself as incapable, rather than that of lack of resource and deprivation of sleep and still has the responsibility of holding some acceptable level of poise. Loss of normal mobility and stability is devastating to Lone Parents.
Socially-she becomes segregated from her peers, her respectable working class status crumbles, her “couple” status depletes, and suddenly she is in a social limbo, with no social class to fit in. Still, she must find a place to fit in...to be accepted...respected for who she is, and not of what she has become..“unemployable”, stereotyped as lazy, and burdens to country and tax payers.
Financially-she struggles to cope with loss of income, and quality of life. She struggles to cope with the fact of never having the comfort of a second income, therefore, has less chances of success of life’s expectations for one’s own life. Often these women incur debt in an attempt to re-educate, sustain a decent existence, or moreover, and sadly, remain victims of poverty and low incomes regardless of working, or non- working statuses. Their children, though living in a country of vast resources will most likely inherit and continue the circle of poverty, and deprivation, not caused by the woman’s lack of working, but on the lack of compassion and the lesser acceptance of someone whom cannot be financially self-sufficient.
Morally-she questions her existence, her faith, her rights and abilities, and the right to be accepted as a disabled person with special needs, not only are some women facing debilitating losses of physical and emotional health, but, moreover, loss of recognition as Mothers, whom made courageous, unselfish decisions to raise their children away from possible abuse, or less-than-desirable environments. And there will be many hours and days, where she will question her decision, when struggling to exist in a dog-eat-dog attitude society, whom has turned their backs on her and her helpless children.
Professionally-she loses any hope, for a secure career, and the chance to invest for retirement and old age. And too, she loses the opportunities to invest in her children’s education, or health, and dental care. She will most certainly struggle with social, political, and governmental issues on a daily experience!!
Question: If a woman had sustained injury to her person or mental state, or is plagued with the development of recurring disease and debilitating illnesses, calling for constant medical treatment, then how is she expected to possibly gain, maintain, sustain adequate employment, such as full time, to be able to live a decent existent life?
When social assistance cutbacks were enforced, thousands of unemployable or disabled single parent women were forced to return to school to re-educate. What has happened to these women? Are they working? Are they declining, or regaining in health status? Did their college education perhaps magically make their diseases disappear? Or, realistically, are they worse off now, than ever before? I dare say, sadly, it’s the latter.
HOW does anyone have the right to force a Lone Parent to incur an un-repayable educational debt, and then cast us down, when we cannot find suitable employment after graduation? Does this not further harm us more, by holding us somehow responsible for the development of physical or emotional, and physical diseases? That would be like telling a victim of cancer, it was their fault, it is the same as telling a person whom loses a leg in a car accident, it was their fault. What if some of these diseases are incurable, and will only, even if but slowly, continue to plague and deteriorate the quality and state of her life... in every way?
Are these Lone Parent Single Women, being forced into a further, more serious degree of poverty than ever before?.....yes!!!....we are victims of an unjust, prejudiced social system.
The following excerpt was taken from A Supplementary Paper Called: Improving Social Security in Canada: Reforming the Canada Assistance Plan (CAP)
.. regarding welfare (social assistance) programs
Through provincial/territorial welfare (or social assistance) programs, persons in need can receive financial assistance to meet their basic requirements such as food, shelter, clothing and personal needs. The programs also respond to the special needs of clients such as essential travel or health-related expenditures, including dental or eye care. About two-thirds of CAP dollars go toward social assistance in a given year. Social assistance is only provided to a "person in need" as a last resort, in other words, after all other reasonable means of support (including income and assets) have been taken into account.
For provinces and territories to secure cost sharing, CAP requires them to provide social assistance through a "needs test." The needs test takes into account the budgetary requirements of the client and any dependants as well as the financial resources (income and assets) available to the household to meet those requirements. Through these tests, each province and territory establishes social assistance benefits payable to welfare recipients, based on family size, regularly-recurring special needs and other considerations. CAP does not control the benefit levels for the social assistance that provinces and territories provide to persons in need. As long as they meet basic cost-sharing requirements under CAP, provinces and territories have the scope to design their own programs and set benefit levels based on their own criteria built into their needs tests.
Almost three-quarters of welfare cases comprise only one or two persons. In March 1993, over half of welfare cases were single persons without spousal relationships or
dependants (many of these were persons with disabilities). Almost one-third of the cases were lone-parent families.
Social Assistance Caseloads, 1981-1994
March 1981: 750,000
March 1982: 800,000
March 1983: 975,000
March 1984: 1,000,000
March 1985: 1,025,000
March 1986: 1,025,000
March 1987: 1,025,000
March 1988: 1,000,000
March 1989: 1,000,000
March 1990: 1,025,000
March 1991: 1,200,000
March 1992: 1,425,000
March 1993: 1,600,000
March 1994: 1,675,000
Source: Human Resources Development Canada.
There are also many lone parents who are not included in this category in provincial/territorial records who want to work but face barriers such as the inability to afford quality child care for their children. Also, among those who are currently considered unemployable due to disability, there are some people who, if not obliged to rely on welfare for necessary items and services related to their disability, could enter the labour market. (This issue is explored more fully in the supplementary paper on persons with disabilities.)
Estimated Social Assistance Caseload by Reason for Assistance, March 1993
Lone Parents: 28 percent
Unemployed Employables: 45 percent
Disabled: 20 percent
Other: 7 percent
Notes:
Definitions of Unemployed Employables and Disabled vary among provinces and territories.
Lone parents may be classified as employable or unemployable.
Source: Human Resources Development Canada
There are also income barriers to employment...
Another barrier that inhibits social assistance recipients from entering the labour market is that, beyond a certain income threshold, they face the prospect of becoming ineligible for welfare and losing health-related and other benefits. Depending on their income, family circumstances and the extra costs of working, they may be better off financially on welfare than in the work force. Figure 2.3 compares welfare incomes with minimum wage incomes in each province (special needs and other benefits added on to the basic welfare payment would further diminish the net benefits of accepting a minimum wage job).
Figure 2.3
Comparison of Welfare Income to Minimum Wage Income,
1 Adult with 1 Child
Ontario
Minimum Wage: $13,500
Welfare Wage: $16,500
My NOTE:
I don’t know how they averaged this income for one adult and one child, as a person living in income housing receives a considerably lesser income, averaging approximately $5,000 annually in welfare income.
Page 13
Lone parents, the vast majority of them women, face special challenges...
Lone parents, over 90 percent of them mothers, face the additional cost of child care in moving from welfare to work. Figure 2.4 compares the labour force participation of married women and lone parents who are in similar situations of having children under the age of six. Since the early 1980's, the participation of women who are lone parents has declined. The federal government has acknowledged the shortage of affordable, quality child care spaces across Canada and is committed to work with the provinces and territories to address this issue. These issues are explored further in the supplementary paper on child care and development.
1976
Lone Parents: 45 percent
Married: 37 percent
1993
Lone Parents: 47 percent
Married: 65 percent
Source: Statistics Canada, Labour Force Survey Annual Averages, 1976-1993 (unpublished data)
This clearly shows the incline in married women in the workforce, forcing lone parent women further out of the labour market, as most married mothers are a second income, therefore compensating for child-care costs.
Current earnings exemptions may not be a sufficient incentive...
Family Type: Lone Parent
Cases with Earnings Exemption: 67,720
Total Cases: 291,900
Percentage with Earnings Exemption: 23.2
Source: Human Resources Development Canada
The Self-Sufficiency Project
What it is:
Human Resources Development Canada, in partnership with two provincial governments, is currently funding the Self-Sufficiency Project. This experimental project, operating in New Brunswick and British Columbia, is providing temporary earnings supplements to lone parents who have been in receipt of social assistance for at least a year and who leave welfare to take a job.
What it aims to do:
The Self-Sufficiency Project tests the effect of a financial incentive to help lone parents leave welfare. The ultimate objective is to "make work pay" for these people and to help them escape the poverty trap which results when the wages they can initially earn are too low to make them better off than staying on welfare.
How it works:
The Project pays a supplement equal to half the difference between actual earnings and a benchmark level. The temporary supplement is offered for a three-year period. It is assumed that participants can increase their earnings during that time - through growth in wage rates, work hours, or both - to the point that they will remain self-sufficient once the supplement ends.
Child poverty is a national concern...
Despite federal financial support through CAP and other programs such as the Child Tax Benefit, and despite a broad range of provincial/territorial programs, the problem of child poverty persists in Canada. Today, 1.3 million children in Canada live in low-income households, and 1.1 million of these children are in welfare families. When not including unattached individuals within the definition of "families", the most common welfare family today is a lone parent with one or two children.
Many circumstances lead to poverty...
The Economic Council of Canada concluded in its 1992 report, The New Face of Poverty, that people move in and out of poverty today due to changes in family status and in the economy.
... and children, particularly of lone parents, are much affected...
Family break-up greatly increases one's chances of being classified as "low income", particularly for the custodial parent (most often the mother). The growth in lone-parent families, particularly those led by mothers, has added to the number of children and families in poverty. Of all families with children under 18, those headed by lone parents have increased from 11 to 16 percent in the last 15 years. Being a lone parent is the second major reason, next to unemployment, for welfare dependency.
Therefore, responding to child poverty is a key reform issue...
The welfare system and other programs that benefit families and children are not doing all they could to provide the kind of support needed to help parents of these children to become more self-reliant through employment. As discussed above, self-reliance was not the main intention of the welfare system. The social security system could do more to prevent the slide of families with children down to where they have no other choice than welfare. More help is needed in breaking down the barriers to training and employment.
... and alternatives to current approaches should be considered within available resources
Rather than welfare as the answer to child poverty, there should be more consideration of approaches within available resources that focus on providing children’s benefits outside of the welfare system to all low-income families. In doing so, another barrier that tends to trap families within welfare could be broken.
And there are other objectives, equally important, that should be pursued, such as improving child care quality and generally providing better supports for the child during the early years of development. Provinces and territories may also want to proceed further with preventive approaches, seeking to deal with problems before rather than after the fact or when on the verge of a serious problem. For example, it may be useful to consider shifting resources towards vital "social investments", such as supports for families while children are in their preschool years, either at home or through resource centres. Within the federal government, Human Resources Development Canada as well as other departments such as Health Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, have funding and other roles to play in support of achieving objectives with respect to child development.
Reform CAP To Promote Greater Independence For People With Disabilities
Many people with disabilities have little choice but to depend on social assistance...
Twenty percent of social assistance cases are headed by a person with a disability. As well, there are other persons with disabilities who are members of families dependent on social assistance and who are not included in the above statistic because they are not the heads of households. Further, as Figure 2.5 shows, persons with disabilities are less likely to have employment earnings and are more likely to receive social assistance than are persons without disabilities.
Persons Aged 16-64 Receiving Income from Selected Sources
Worker's Compensation
Disabled: 9 percent
No Disability: 3 percent
Pension Income
Disabled: 18 percent
No Disability: 5 percent
Social Assistance
Disabled: 19 percent
No Disability: 5 percent
Employment Earnings
Disabled: 50 percent
No Disability: 75 percent
Note:
Persons can receive income from more than one source.
Source: Statistics Canada, Labour Market Activity Survey 1990
Many persons with disabilities are classified, for social assistance purposes, as being "unemployable". This generally means their social assistance benefits are higher than those payable to other recipients who are classified as "employable" and that they also receive disability-related supports and services. As noted earlier, being classified as "unemployable" and receiving disability-related supports and services from welfare can lock a person into the welfare system, even when he or she wishes to join the labour force.
Persons with disabilities would like to be self-reliant...
Today, people with disabilities can benefit from better health and rehabilitation services as well as from new technologies. Even those with severe disabilities are able to participate in mainstream activities if they have the supports and services they need.
But people with disabilities face additional barriers to leaving welfare...
People with disabilities face many of the same barriers to leaving the welfare safety net as do other social assistance recipients. However, they have an additional problem because they often need supports and services to function independently; some of these are health-related but not provided through insured health services. These may no longer be available to them if they undertake
training or get a job, and they may not be able to afford high-cost supports and services on their own (see Figure 2.6).
Figure 2.6
Persons With Disabilities Not in the Labour Force: Main Barriers That Prevent Them from Working
Transportation: 6.7 percent
Discrimination: 6.8 percent
Family Responsibilities: 9.3 percent
Would lose additional supports: 12.0 percent
No jobs available: 13.9 percent
Inadequate training: 15.2 percent
Would lose current income: 19.8 percent
Source: Statistics Canada, Health and Activity Limitation Survey 1991
... and others may leave the labour market and go on welfare
By the same token, persons with disabilities in low-paying jobs who are not eligible for social assistance, may not be able to afford the supports and services they need to live independently. There may be a financial incentive for them to abandon their jobs and apply for social assistance in order to gain access to disability-related services and supports.
Improving Social Security in Canada illustrates an approach to restructuring current programs to pursue more actively the proposed goals of increasing employment and reducing child poverty. Priorities outlined in the Discussion Paper might usefully be considered in this context.
- There could be better income support for low-income families with children.
- Working poor families with children might receive an enhanced working income supplement.
- Child care spaces might be expanded and child care might be linked to broader child development initiatives.
- Child support initiatives might be pursued, reducing the need for some lone parent families to depend upon welfare.
- Employment development services for social assistance recipients might be provided.
- There could be improved access to disability-related supports and services.
- There could be continued federal support for provincial/territorial social service programs, possibly through a block fund with conditions.
The approaches listed are intended to provide an illustrative "menu" of priority initiatives which could support the proposed goals of increasing employment and reducing child poverty.
Taken From: Improving Social Security in Canada: Reforming the Canada Assistance Plan (CAP)æ
researched and prepared by:
Donna Sonnenburg, Lone Parent Support Group, President/Founder
Currently:
As of November 1st, 2006: people on disability assistance, will only lose, 50% of work-related income, while on assistance, instead of losing 75%; which is over a base amount.
For instance, if a woman, single on disability brings in $600 dollars a month income, whe will get to keep half, of the base-amount($300).
Also, being implemented, for assistance, to help disableds enter/retain work, is a $100 dollar a month work-supplement.
This is going to greatly increase the chances of disabled people to find, and retain work in the work-force, as per their disability.
These new changes, will ensure secure transportation coverage, clothes, etc. for work-related costs.
BUT!! It does not, and will never replace the loss's incured to disabled women and their children, during the mothers allowance abolition in 96-97!!
While running the lone parent support group; I"d come to meet, too many women, re-entering into low-rated relationships with abusive, or alchohol/or-drug dependant men...to avoid the pitfalls of social assistance...the damages done, remain invizible... to thousands of disabled women and their children.
Currently: there is NO deb-relief for women, whom incurred educational debt, post-MA Abolition!!
Currently: these same disabled women; taking the giant leap, risk of all time; to engage in educational tools to secure employment; fell rather short of probibility of said security of work, post college-education. Therefore, thousands, and thousands, of Ontarioan disabled women, and their "now" teen children, live in below-standards of living, unbecoming the rich's of this country!
Student Loans, are granted with interest relief; "while educating or" when employed." IF on the system; they go into bankruptcy status. IF in this arena; it is impossible to get out, without drastic, Divine Interventions.
As I"d mentioned, one has to be on their death-bed, to be granted "disdolvement" of debt, with OSAP!! I tried, I lose, again and again.
So, anyway, just thought I'd throw in some facts and figures, though they be OLD< they are still a contention with us.
North
This is cool, you have to try it. I guessed 81628, and this game guessed it! See it here - http://www.funbrain.com/guess/
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Allison Trump commented on The Ties That Bind
This is cool, you have to try it. I guessed 81
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North commented on The Ties That Bind
Currently:
As of November 1st, 2006: p
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North commented on The Ties That Bind
The recent social policy, re: Canada issues, sp
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Kristin Masterton commented on The Ties That Bind
Dear Kavita,
I think it's a mistake and u -
North commented on The Ties That Bind
I can't imagine what immigrants must face.. or
Hi Kavita,
It's illegal, but in my mind it's not a crime. It's something many of us might consider in similar situations. But only if you had a lot of guts. I think it takes a lot of courage to go to a new country where you may not even speak the language, let alone know anyone else. So in my mind most of these people have a lot of courage and I aspire to that.
Love, Kristin