David if I was on the jury I would have voted for life in prison - let him contemplate what he did and give him the chance to change for the better. Compassion is the one emotion that should trump all others.

what a joke, to imprison this bit player for "stopping us from capturing the hijackers."

there are many more in my govt who had many oppotunities to act in a way that would have helped stop the tragedy.

we started this trial when we thought he was the "20th hijackers," learned he was not, and went ahead because we thought America needed a scapegoat, but all it has done is point out all we knew when we did and why we didn't act.

pah.

ultimately roles we play...

question is :

how willing are we to see it all within ourselves ...

what would we find ???

How would we change ???

an approach that stretches me when I fall into the box of separation and accusatory righteousness ...

I wonder ...

what leads someone to be part of plot that kills innocent people ... while being willing to die for it themselves???

what imbalances are we facing that feeds such a distorted perpective of life and living ???

how do we contribute to it as a whole ???

after all we all part of the dance ...

and yes compassion is a key ...

question is ;

how can we experience compassion without being willing to step into anothers's shoes ???

I recall an Oprah show ...

a woman's interaction with the man who had killed her only son ...

how she went on a mission to talk about it here and there ...

till she saw a young man in one of the prisons ...

he could be my son ... she reasoned ... what would I do then ???

it was only after she allowed such possibility that she was able to meet the man who had killed her son...

able now to melt in absolute compassion ...

as they bowed ...

holding each other's hands ...

later becoming friends ...

of the rarest of kind ...

I recall a few of his words in one of his letters ...

"the day you came ... I received more love than I ever had in my entire life ... I thank you "

I do not agree that this is about the justice of America ...

it goes far deeper than that...

like

what destructive patterns are we facing that leads to so much hatred .. where young adults are willing to destroy their own lifes as well as those of others???

How can we account for the fact that there were many who danced in streets when they heard about 9/11?

What world view are we missing that contributes to this insanity of actions and reactions?

possibilities I would love to explore and expand into ...

starting with :

what would I do .. how would I feel if this man was my son???

would I fall into analitical discussions of life versus a death sentence or would I reach out and touch him with the power of my compassionate, merciful heart ???

What led you into it ??? I may ask ...

wanting to understand ...

and yet willing to love him ... no matter what ...

the alchemy we yearn for ...

only possible

when we are willing to give it all ...

from the inside out ...

the power of thoughts we so easily talk about ...

in need of actions of a very different kind ...

at least where I stand ...

aware of those I felt so profoundly let down ...

at times where I could barely stand up ...

unable to this day to express it with the power of their hearts ...

eye to eye .. heart to heart ...

till I became willing to see it differently and to to let go ...

like melting wax ...

it is all within me ... I reasoned

I have the power to transform it and to let it go ...

my contribution to this better world ...

I yearn so deeply for ...

Dave: I like what you said in the end - ". . . what really "won" in this case is American justice system."
In my opinion: I do believe that Moussaoui's life in prison would be worse than a death sentence. How secure is this "20th hijacker" in prison from other mates?
As far as being a martyr is concerned, I don't know who is considered a martyr by the Almighty, but he is already one for those who believe in his ideology. For the rest of the world he will be a criminal who committed the one of the most heinous crime in the history of world. Let’s not give him any more importance. He is better forgotten from this day onwards.

-jasleen

There's several good points about his trial:

He was vrought into the American justice system, given rights, given access to representation, given a fair trial, and judged by a jury of regular people.

I believe that every prisoner in Guantanamo should have the same rights, and that it is the Bush Administration that is anti-American in spirit by not not granting the Guantanamo detainees the rights to American justice.

2.Moussaoui was not tortured. You know where I am going with this point...

In WWII, Korea, and even Vietnam, one of the things that made the world respect America was our insistence on treating even our enemies humanely when we took prisoners. German and jaoanese soldiers expected to be beaten, tortured, and executed when taken prisoner by us. Instead they we surprised to be fed, clothed, and given medical attention if needed.

What on God's green Earth has happened to us???

Dave: Another excellent blog on your point--and the feelings and views you've cited from the different perceptions others have expressed regarding this most exemplary case.

I thoroughly agree with you--that this verdict is a triumph for the American legal system to have rendered.

It rises above the "eye-for-an-eye, and tooth-for-tooth system," which has never broken the cycle of violence, and consequent injustices in this world, ever; whereas the extensive studies that have exploded surrounding the healing, both individually and collectively, that comes from the emerging patterns of true forgiveness techniques, have "rendered" successful the intended results that "man's courts" so rarely achieve.

During my own studies of "forgiveness," it was almost always reported that the "execution" of capitol punishment did not effect a genuine release from the overwhelming sense of anger and grief that is the certain lot of those who remain in the wake of such violations--but....

.....when the emerging steps-of-forgiveness are applied with real devotion, a true soul-hunger to find relief from the secondary hell that settles in to permanently plague those directly affected by the seemingly unforgivable offenses experienced in this world, that freedom and healing is found. Dave (too!)

If the defendant stated, America loses, He wins,
then the discussion is about his perception, and not the legal system.

Did America Lose. Did he Win.

As baba above asks, the more compelling questions are - what leads someone to do these kinds of acts - to plot, and to intend to participate in a murder mission.

For sure, Moussaoui cannot escape his inner thoughts and interior feelings. No outer appearance can show his tormenting thoughts or how he may be suffering. He can hide well, it seems. But, not to himself.

My opinion is ..... He did not Win anything.

~ Kate

The goal as I see it is alchemy...

requiring a whole different vibration...

not possible when we stay trapped inside our boxes ...

in our thoughts ...

as well as in our actions ...

Maybe this is a case of American justice system working but what about all those unfortunate people locked up at Guantanamo Bay without any normal US justice.

Everyone knows the Australian, David Hicks, is not a terrorist, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Because the Australian government would NEVER do anything that might offend Bush, the unlucky young man is just having his life wasted in a wire cage.

Still, fortunately he hasn't be executed by US justice!

Dave,

Excellent, well balanaced post. I would have to agree with you completely on this one.

While the baser part of me whispers in my ear of revenge ("Fry the SOB!"), the higher part of me knows that his death would answer no questions nor make the world a safer or more just place. In fact it would add one more piece of violence and insanity to a world that has been knocking at the threshold of the "Rubber Room" for centuries. And that we can all do without. Better to have a cup of tea and watch the Simpsons.

I like your viewpoint that the "winner" was our system of Justice...for my part I agree with you.

Peace,
Scott.

Read in the newspaper yesterday ...

comments from his mother " Now he is going to die in little doses. He is going to live like a rat in a hole. What for ? they are so cruel"

His words " Look at yourselves . I fight for my belief"

Nine Jurors foud that Moussaoui suffered a difficult childhood spending many of his years in and out of orphanages . Three found that Moussaoui played only a minor role in the attacks.

Judge words " Mr Moussaoui when this proceeding is over , everyone else will leave to see the sun ... hear the birds and they can associate with whatever they want . You will spend the rest of your life in a supermax prison. It is absolutely clear who won. You came here to be a martyr in a big bang of glory . "But to paraphrase TS eliot , instead you will die with a whimper . You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending"

I think of the words " you can never solve a problem with the same energy that it was created"

Who did absolutely won????

it is not clear to me ...

i agree with u that american justice system won the battle.this is not a justice where the defendant was denied of counsel,was not given the opportunity to addres the court.well i'm not astonished becauce american justice system acted in this way in guantanamo bay prison,abu ghribe prison... .i think it's the true color of american society.

Please,

The American justice system won what? Huh . . .

What did they win? This isn't a basketball or football game, and one does not win by scoring a point (look-see we didn't torture him this time), or by saying that he was tried by a judge 'of his peers.' What peers of Moussaoui's were presiding in the jury? The ones that wanted 'to fry him . . .'

Please . . .

This spectacle of a 'court drama' did no more than re-live September 11th for the media/governmental complex, that just so happened to have been conducting their reporter/politician gathering throughout the same timeframe. Distracting and keeping the masses angry is a major component of conquering and dividing them . . .

I know all about 'your' 'justice system' so spare me. When you have ten to fifteen detectives and police officers harassing a thirteen-year-old little kid while feeding him soda pops and cigarettes, and lying to him about coming clean with all of his sins (crimes) and saying they will say a good word to the judge on one's behalf, because they really do know you are a 'good kid,'

and then come sentencing time the only screw around is you getting screwed . . .

spare me your 'American justice system!'

Can we get five dollars a gallon b4 the end of summer . . .

The religiously conservative ‘right’ is forgetting all about it’s hardcore right, you know, like those McVeigh type of Aryan-nation punk-asses, and the religious nuts who bomb hospitals. Bush has not the personal charisma of a Mussolini or Hitler, but somebody like Feingold, or Lieberman (even the spineless with a lot of guns are powerful) if we have to, might do the trick . . .

peace is for pussies, I want some real war . . .

uh,

peace all

Craig,

The American justice system is imperfect and vastly flawed...it's simply not as flawed as most systems. After all, it's run by fallible humans and not matter how you try, you will not develop a perfect system. Which ultimately leaves trusting in the law of Karma and the understanding that we can't see the whole picture but again, we must trust that "someone" does.

Timothy McVeigh by the way, was executed for his crimes. No matter what you feel about the death penalty, he certainly wasn't "forgotten" by the right, or by the justice system.

Zip up your fly Craig, your bitterness is showing.

Peace,
Scott.

The 'zip up your fly' part I do not understand.

But I thought you would like it now that I wholeheartedly support war!

Come on Russia and China; those communist red bastards anyway; kill em, kill em, kill em . . .

uh,

peace

Craig,
I was just being glib.

I can tell that you're in a bitter place right now, and feeling cynical about the justice system. Fair enough, I too have felt cynical (and still do) about the system. If you honestly think about it though, what would you replace it with? What way can you make it more just? We all agree that injustice happens all the time, but what system, new or used, should replace it?

Peace,
Scott.

Scott,

Yeah, I just see our capitalistic ways are going to be the death of us, I mean, one cannot even walk through the shopping mall w/o little kids with gel in their hair trying to sell you the newest cell phone: our standards of success are measured by money, and . . .

our ‘justice system’ is predicated upon ownership and ‘private property.’ With these standards we are doomed!

So, what could we change, w/o trying to write a book b/c I am actually going to try to read one today, I am going to be a pithy as possible, here goes:

-) Our government must not be allowed to keep secrets from us, especially the military branch. They have to keep secrets you say to protect us from those ‘evil’ people over there somewhere, well then it is time to unify then, it is time for the people of the world to unify, b/c the ruling plutocracies that are now governing us only want to stay in power at whatever cost. Here in the U.S.A. in fact name me one NON-millionaire senator or governor, shoot; you can probably safely say almost all of the congress-people are millionaires also . . .

the rule of the rich shall always guarantee injustice, and the rule of the rich with generals and armies to command shall always lead to war.

-) Lawyers are not to profit from serving the community, they have already been richly awarded enough with having the finest educations this nation has to offer, in fact, lawyers and judges should live in the ghetto with the people they are sending to prison, not serve them dinner once a year at the local mission (if they even do that . . .).

-) I do not know if police officers and detectives still unjustly interrogate little children, but the juvenile detention centers should not be allowed to release children into the polices’ hands w/o their being a lawyer, family member, and alternate figure of authority (a seasoned ex-con would be the ideal person . . .) present also;

and Commissioner O’Connor (I still remember her name) should not have allowed a thirteen-year-old to rat himself out, like a kid has any idea what one’s Miranda rights are . . .

but she was the primal accomplice within this tyranny of injustice, and after I got dogged out at sentencing all I had was hate for your criminal justice system, THEY all but guaranteed that I would re-offend b/c revenge is all I was thinking about for the next year and a half. So much for providing opportunity for a troubled kid, they were more concerned with giving an ex-soldier a job by keeping me within the vicious chains of lack of opportunity and poverty.

I understand that not all impoverished people are criminals, but then again, not all impoverished people have uncles and fathers who train you to drink and hate ‘the man’ . . .

And we are simply talking about a Spokane white trash ‘hoodlum,’ I could only imagine the injustices suffered by black inner-city children in L.A., Philadelphia, New York . . ., throughout the last fifty years (or four hundred . . .)

-) Most importantly, the entire paradigm of our criminal justice system needs to be destroyed and rebuilt in a just and honorable fashion. That is, we do not need defense attorneys and prosecuting attorneys, we simply need people to gather the facts as meticulously as possible, and with the outstanding technology at our disposal now-a-days, we can get pretty meticulous, and decide the case based solely upon the facts. Period! Simple. Just the facts man. Lawyers spouting Latin verbiage and intellectual sophistries serve not the ‘common man!’ They serve more to obfuscate justice rather than bringing the truth to light.

-) ‘Criminals’ should be provided Harvard-like schooling and should have excellent jobs provided for them, and they should get the best of medical and dental treatment. Empower the poor, do not imprison them! We could turn our prisons into mansions of opportunity, we could turn jail cells into computer labs and technical halls of training; instead of depriving the minds of the least amongst us, we should be feeding them, intellectually, spiritually, and physically. Empower the Other do not seek to further deprive them!

-) Again, furthermore, a justice system built upon economics will always be unjust, b/c the bottom line is money, and when money is what really calls the shots, justice shall never be found . . .

Burn the law schools, tar and feather economic ‘advisors,’ and outlaw economics 101 from every school’s curricula, and make Chinua Achebe mandatory reading . . .

On a personal note. I will still give up and drink b/c of the guilt I have for the poor people I have robbed. But, I would rob George Bush, Hilary Clinton, Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, John Kerry, the Walton heirs; and feel good about it, elated in fact,

and then I would build a grand place of hope, opportunity, and the finest books and computer stuff around, and invite all of my homeless and impoverished brethren to come on in,

then I would finally feel like I did something good in this life . . .

(It seems like women and Africans would be the first to speak about the evils of ‘ownership’ and ‘private property’ since they too were white mans’ property little more than a hundred years ago, but the right to vote and a mule, and the privilege of being able to legally own property, go a long way I suppose . . .)

Peace Scott

Craig,

Who would you get to build your schools and your palaces of learning? Whose labor would you steal to teach these poor criminals? How do you convince teachers that those people that killed their families or raped their daughters or wives should be educated like "Harvard Grads"? You see, you can take away money, but you can't take away what money symbolizes: the labor and talents of people.

All you would need to do in your perfect society in order to get this "Harvard-like" education would be to murder, rape or steal from an innoccent, then the State would lock you up in a "palace of learning" at the expense of all of those that you hurt.

It's okay with you if you steal from the rich...after all just because someone works hard and makes good choices, or sacrifices to move ahead in the world means that they are evil or undeserving. They are "different" after all from the poor and deserve nothing but death and your anger. It doesn't matter that a vast majority of those that you call "wealthy" actually worked their way up from beginnings as humble or more so, than your own. Many have worked hard to build businesses that employ people and provide them with health insurance and better lives; many have sacrificed and failed countless times before they finally became financially successful. Nope...they have worked and scraped to make better lives for themselves and their children and they deserve nothing but your hatred toward them. Because after all they are different and somehow less because they have made other choices than you have.

Are there rich people out there that are undeserving, or unjust or unscrupulous? You bet. But the last time I checked the rich did not have a monopoly on the dark traits of the human race. We share all of that pretty equally: "No Village Idiots Here...We All Take Turns."

Just for fun, print up a dozen or so of your posts and read them in a row. See if you can count all of the beliefs that you hold that keep you where you are. Then count all of the prerequisites that you have set up in order for you to "be happy" and succeed. You have conveniently set yourself up so that the whole world will have to change before you can change your life and the excuses that you hold so dearly for not getting out of your rut will NEVER go away as long as you believe them. The Universe doesn't work that way...If you want to change your world, change yourself first...be the change that you want.

The world right now, is showing you your beliefs...that's all. Change the beliefs...even question the beliefs and the world will reflect he new paradigm.

Peace,
Scott.

Scott,

Hate. No; maybe disgust and despair, but I hate no living human being. And iffin I killed somebody it would not be you, her, him, them.

I am not God, and taking the life of another is not my decision to make.

Don't worry Scott nobody will deprive you or the multimillionaires/billionaires of their 'hard-earned stuff' anytime soon.

Unless it is true and Jesus lives,

but who has time for fairy tales, I got to get me a Ferrari and catch up with Marek . . .

peace man

Craig,
Wasn't worried about my stuff or theirs...only that you seem so bitter. And that the paradigm prison that you have constructed is virtually impossible to escape until you question the value of your prison and why it was built.

Peace,
Scott.

I question it daily Scott,

I really do . . .

But, we all have to believe in something (I think), and I believe in something that has never been successfully tried, or even given the chance; it may be a lost cause, but the track this world is on we need to do something.

You are a smart, empathetic, and by all accounts a cool dude, and this is just my cybernetic knowledge of you.

Yet, I must 'preach' what my heart tells me is true, just as you do, and again, as long as we do not come to physical blows over our differing philosophies, then it is all good,

shoot, iffin you see me hitchhiking down the road, if you recognized me, you might even give me a ride to the next town,

what more could a brother ask . . .

peace bro

Good luck my friend...I'll be looking for your thumb. :)

Peace,
Scott.

The only problem with Minnesota though is this state called Montana is smack dab in me way,

and the last time I got stuck in Montana I at least had a super-fast Camaro to 'get outta dodge' . . .

har har har

peace