Very interesting and thought-provoking post, David! Maybe once I know more about the issues involved I can help answer your questions!

Excellent post Mr. Sidhu! Good discussion.

As you quite make the point w/o stating the explicit theme: ECONOMICS.

Anglo-Saxon Protestantish values is the rule of law based upon economics; or, rather, private property and money rule the law! Corruption being guaranteed to imbue the means, ways, and ends through and through when her/his/theirs is outlawed from me and you.

Not that this is any different from any other kingdoms . . .

cepting one I hear tell

peace

Illegal immegrants should be allowed to stay unless they commit a serious crime. It is cruel to ship them back having getting benefited from them so far.

This was aready discussed in a previous post. Simple legalise their status.

Dave,

This is a complex issue. While I understand why illegals are coming to this country, and if I were in similar situations I too would consider these actions, the country MUST have some control over its borders. Every country has an obligation to monitor and control who comes into the country.

I would disagree with those that state that illegals are doing the jobs that "Americans refuse to do". Rather, Americans will not do those jobs for the money that is paid to illegals. The reason that employers can pay illegal aliens so little is because they are illegal...essentially it is black market labor. The moment that you make them "legal", then natural market forces will force employers to pay higher wages...when that happens the wages will attract other Americans etc. In order to then get "cheap" labor, more "illegals" will have to enter the labor pool, which again depresses the labor market.

This is a cycle that will repeat continuously. Ronald Reagan went down this road back in the 80's assuming that it would solve the problem, and here we are again.

In my opinion, the only way to begin to change this problem is to make it easier for people to enter the country. The way the system is set up currenlty, only those that do not need to be here can afford to be here. In other words (understandably) an immigrant must prove that he or she can financially take care of themselves and will not be a burden on the system. That means proving that you have a marketable skill and some means to support yourself until you can acquire a job. Sadly, many of these people coming across the borders illegally are low skilled workers and that is why they are trying to get in.

Ultimately, the long term answer is to help Mexico become financially viable. Corruption and bribes are open and frankly just the way things are done in Mexico. If the government there can get its act together, there would be less need for many of these people to come to the U.S.

For as much criticism as the U.S. takes concerning its policies on illegals, take a look at how Mexico treats illegals coming up from South America. I suspect that you will find a bit of hypocracy there.

Peace,
Scott.

Just one other point concerning the current demonstrations: Mexicans tend to be hard working and family oriented; sacrificing much of their hard earned money for the upkeep of families far away. I think American citizens would be MUCH more likely to support their cause if they were marching in the streets waving American flags and showing appreciation for the place they want to stay and be accepted in. Rather than waving Mexican flags and shouting how they are "owed" rights equal to those that have come here legally.

Peace,
Scott.

Just one other point concerning the current demonstrations: Mexicans tend to be hard working and family oriented; sacrificing much of their hard earned money for the upkeep of families far away. I think American citizens would be MUCH more likely to support their cause if they were marching in the streets waving American flags and showing appreciation for the place they want to stay and be accepted in. Rather than waving Mexican flags and shouting how they are "owed" rights equal to those that have come here legally.

Peace,
Scott.

Aloha Dave

Listening to Alan Watt on Coast to Coast I copied and pasted part of the transcript that was about the immigration to the US and Canada from Mexico and South America. The whole transcript is on Alan Watt's site: http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

George: Alan, this series of protests in support of illegal immigrants in the United States that has been going on now for a couple of weeks seems to be so organized it's absolutely stunning. One would never expect this. Do you believe that this could be the work of the secret societies, the illuminati. Call them what they may be?

Alan: There's no doubt. There's no doubt at all. The illuminati under Weishaupt - and he was only one branch that popped its head up in time. They'd always been around. You can find them in the Oxford Dictionary from the 12th century onward but Adam Weishaupt's particular group wanted to create a "citizen of the world." That's the first time that term was used.

Mr. Rockefeller, who's one of the big players in this movement calls himself a "citizen of the world," and gives titles to his high members of his society. I actually have a video tape of him awarding these Citizenship of the World awards to certain people. So yes, Adam Weishaupt had a big part to play but he was not the originator of the plan.

George: Well what's their goal then lets say against supporting these protests. Is it to topple the United States? Is it to split it up? Is it to create a one world government? I mean what are they trying to do? What do they want?

Alan: They want - Jacque Attali wrote about this, and is a very good book they he wrote. It's called Millennium published in 1990 and it's subtitled Winners and Losers in the Coming New World Order. Now Jacque Attali he was the Kissinger of Europe. He spearheaded the unification of Europe from France and he advised various presidents of France and then he went to work at the United Nations and in that book he gives a scenario of America with the borders coming down towards the end of the millennium into the new. That's when it was scheduled to happen, the move 2001 and he said initially that people will be upset because vast hoards of people will come from Latin America and come in through the south causing mayhem just like the Huns attacking Rome but eventually America would end up being - the foreign America would end up being a Spanish speaking people and he said, when America finishes its work which is to police the world, bring democracy to the Middle East then its commerce would collapse through debt and the next boat people would leave America looking for work abroad.

George: That's amazing. It all seems to be happening.

Alan: Oh it's happening right on cue. One thing I found out about these fellows the big players like Kissinger and so on and Jacque Attali they come from the high level meetings with the Bilderbergers et cetera and whenever they write something about a plan or agenda they never alter it. They follow it through.

George: You know Alan, I'm in support of legal immigration, controlled immigration where we have a certain quota. We allow them into the country. Let them prosper. Let them have the American way. My opposition is with the illegal immigration. I mean you can't have a country where people just enter in droves illegally. You just can't do that. People don't seem to understand that people who support legal immigration think that there are no walls, that you can just come and go as you please. Why is this by design in that past administrations nobody has done anything from this current administration on back to stop these illegal immigrants. I mean were they part of the plan?

Alan: Absolutely they're part of the plan. Under the "Free Trade" negotiations which carried on in the late 1980s into the early '90s prior to the NAFTA, they discussed the eventual taking down of the borders between Canada the U.S. and Mexico and then they go ahead at that time it was decided would begin and be signed into law in 2005. Now in 2005, when the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Canada when Mr. Bush, Mr. Martin and Fox met at Waco, Texas they did sign "Fortress America" and Tom Clark from CTV asked them is this the beginning of a European Union type of deal and when the borders come down and Mr. Martin said, it's not quite the Big Bang. You've have five more meetings to go before it's completed. In other words, it is the same agenda as the European Union, exactly.

George: So letting the millions of illegal immigrants into the United States was done on purpose basically?

Alan: Yes it was, yes. This was written about in the 1840s by Karl Marx.

love patty

I don't know where to post this, but I was really surprised that no one had commented on the Darfur crisis in this blog site yet!

In Canada, there has been greater media coverage over the past few days, but despite the rally in Washington on Sunday I haven't heard nearly enough on American news channels. What's the American perspective on this??... american neighbours please comment, I am curious to understand. Does the immigration debate take precedence because it hits home? Is the attention of Americans being drawn to in-home issues and to 'war against terror' while conveniently avoiding the ongoing human slaughters in Sudan? I have heard way more about the Kaavya Vishwanathan story than about Darfur on American news!.. and that's reflected in the blog posting on this site as well.

I am just baffled at the selectivity of news broadcasting in the US, how self-centered can it get??... or is this an illusory difference that only I am percieving?

-Perplexed-

Great post Dave. Thanks for providing some context with your example of slavery. People make much of the notion that the country will come to a standstill if it did not have a steady supply of cheap labor. The price of labor will simply go up and the work will continue to get done no matter what. But the pull to immigrate will not abate unless Mexico (and other poor countries) do not achieve at least somewhere near the socio-economic status enjoyed by the U.S. To the extent the U.S. employs unfair trade practices, provides farm subsidies and such, it will continue to pay the price in the form of illegal immigrants. I understand the need to preserve their way of life and if they seriously want to do that they should begin to revise some of their trade policies.

I am both the grandchild of "border-hoppers" (on my Papi's side), and live in America. I am mainly sad to see the amount of racism that is becoming evident. I don't think half the time we are truly having discussions on "Immigration," but instead, are just scared because lately many Americans have been made to realize how much of the US is brown, as well as been made to be afraid about (dark) foreigners. But I am also happy to see the courage and unity of this immigrant part of America, they show us how to be united, joyful, grateful, and strong.

I do write more about this, article links are here:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joaqu_edn__060326_home_of_the_brave_2c_l.htm

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_joaqu_edn__060502_fear_and_courage___p.htm

-- if anyone is interested. It's not that I mean to make this comment an "ad," but i would just be rehashing myself here if I went on too long, and I'm tired for the day of typing. So I summarized above, and linked. I thought it was better than copying and pasting the whole thing.

I don't have any answers for this. I am not a politician or land-divider. I dont feel ownership over this Earth. I just want to promote less hatred and intolerance. I am so tired of all the Fear they are spreading and forcing upon us.

The truth of the matter is how Dave Sidhu said it.. for the right to work and live in the USA; and anywhere, where they will not be murdered by a thief of life, in the night; like in their own countries just for uttering out loud, a word against their government.

But, the second truth of it is the over-crowding of people in a smaller, segmented country like the USA.

Since the 60's when the immigration up-flux was an instant almost invasian(Cuba's infamous crime wave)in size of people arriving; created a to be expected hysteria!

North America changed. Suddenly, north americans had to give up their rights, to talk about God in school. NO flags allowed in some. No singing of God Save the Queen.

Suddenly, immigrants to north america; are fighting IN< north america, to live like they did, in their abandoned countries!?(that always has confused me.)

I mean, when in Rome, do as the Romans do and all that saying and how it goes?

Suddenly, north americans are fighting for their customs, for their cultures; which seem to all but have vanished into the melting pot of time, and over-population of a country with so many cultures to satisfy.

I don't think, once we boil down the melting pot; that it is so much race-significant; but, more an over-crowded issue.

It has come to the time, where immigrants must now fight for more rights; and it won't be easy for north americans to give more.

Now, north americans know - how north american Indians(like my ancestors) felt like, in giving up, to the flux of people coming in. My people remember..when this Canada was less populated, less polluted, a garden to live IN and OF. The last of my oldest Indian ancestors are all gone; so goes the old stories.

On the other hand, my other ancestry is french, english, dutch and scottish! (a human mongrel I know, but adorable, oui?)

This means, one part of my ancestors were fighting to keep out the whites; and the other half of my ancestors were fighting for the rights to live in Canada. This means, my Dad's ancestors side, were killing my Moms ancestors side, etc.. then, they made peace, some got married, had some young kids, and here I am, as one of them, one hundred plus years later.

I giggle about it sometimes, I mean, who wouldn't; in my shoes & multi-cultural blood? lol

So, I can neither condemn, nor condone.

But, I do believe in the right to protest an error of moral code/ethic against any race/religion which now exists as part and parcel of north american countries(Canada & USA.)

OK< in a long-winded view, I am FOR the protest, and the right for immigrants to have equal job and life opportunity, once in our countries(Canada & USA.)because I believe in equal freedom, to live and work where we want to.

It would be nice, to legalize the one's here now; to make ready, better ways, for those to come in the future. WE must ensure, there will be ample supplies of water and food, to take IN the flux of millions of people over the past 30 years? WE must ensure, we will have ample job opportunity as well, enough medical teams, for future births, deaths and medical care?

So much to mull over in life. Life, should be less-constrained, and less complicated for ALL!

North

North

Can someone tell me what it is you do not understand about the word "ILLEGAL"? The argument here should not be about the fact that these immigrants are Mexican, South Americans or any other nationality but that they are ILLEGAL.
They make a mockery of the laws of the US. They make a mockery of all the legal immigrants who have worked hard to be here.

To legalize them now would be the same as telling me that I can rob you, then protest that you did not have enough "stuff" for me to take.

To equate them to slaves is the most absurd argument I have heard to date. They are here of their own free will for heavens sake. They are ILLEGAL period!!! As such they should bear the full force of the law. Period.

To delve into the root cause of why they are here would be a much more productive argument. Perhaps if they marched and protested in their own country(ies) for their "rights" then we would not have this problem.

I for one do not feel I "owe" them anything except for my fervent prayer that economic conditions and quality of life in their respective countries improve to such a degree that it becomes unnecessary to risk life and limb to escape.

Some good points, North, but I have to offer the thought that overcrowding is not the fault of the current immigrants from Mexico (which is the target of HR4437), and much of what I'm reacting to, and which is at the heart of this current dialogue).

There are ten million people in New York City, and they would be there even if the current immigrants from Mexico were removed from the city. But then, we'd have the Irish, Little Italy, Spanish Harlem, the many Hasidic Jews, the Greeks in Queens, and the other immigrants who make up New York. Such is the draw and the history of the "Big Apple," even before the Irish arrived, fleeing the potato famine and were shunned and hated upon their arrival.

And have you been to the midwest US, North? or even to the North? Even in New York (upstate)there is plenty of land that is very, very empty! In fact, lots of America has lots of air and space. But most Americans flock toward the many cities in our country. Again, this is is no way related to the immigrants, it is just the draw of cities' technological, cultural and economic pace.

But I do agree with you, and am for the naturalization of all those contributing.

Aloha Joaquin

I loved your sites. I agree with the content and the colors remind me of the beautiful colors that you see in the craft works from Mexico. I remember a story about Mexican Mythical Bird. The only time the bird would touch ground is to give birth. I find what is happening exciting and the birth will be open boarders. I feel is a given. Love patty

Bonnie, some families have been in Canada or the United States illegally for a generation or more now! Why condemn their children, and return them to a country they know nothing of, or maybe no longer even speak their country's fluent language?

I think it was terrible of Canada to throw out that immigrant family that was here and working a long time! Who cares if they worked hard jobs and didnt' pay tax's? Maybe it was a desperate measure? In Mexico, many can't find work. Many become desparate, and criminalize themseve's a living, whore, or suicide? Poverty is rampant. Would you not flee to a country, to provide that opportunity for your children? My ancestors did.

Dear Joaquin.. sorry, I was very vague in my thoughts; I really hadn't meant to be that vague. I was speaking for all immigrants to have the right to live, where they want to live.

I included some "inside, bird-eye views" of many north americans that feel they are losing their right to preserve their culture, while bending school's and church cultures of north americans, to suit our immigrants cultures?

I thought listing some why's might be beneficial to know - but, they do not reflect my heart or view..

the right to live and work where one wish's is my view. : )

Much respect, for your efforts, and a marshmallow kiss, to the wee lass babe, from me.

North

sorry for taking it a little off topic target of the specific HR4437 issue. (blush)

North

Aloha Bonnie

Deepak has shared the US takes up 5% of the country in the world and uses up 1/3 of her energy. I feel that is criminal. And I am grateful that the “Illegal immigrants” are saying, “No” to being treated like they are invisible in the US. They have the right to have a dignified life without the fear of being punished. It is time they are credited for trying to have a better life. And their countries will change as we change. Fool I am to think I can know let alone own anything. We are all guests and maybe that is the lesson they reflect. Mirrors back to back reflect eternity. love patty

I had my radio tuned in to NPR for most of the day and spent listening ot different arguments in regards to this issue.

To answer Dave's question: To be fair, I think the solution would be highly dependent on an examination of what prevented the authorities to act on the issue of 'illegal immigrations' so far? What do they intend to do or how do they plan on amending the law in the future so that this issue does nto persist?

There are people who have been living an important part of their lifetime in a community which considers them "illegal". We can't deny that they are an important part of the system either. To expect them to restart their life in a land which they chose to leave would be unfair to them and their families.

Limited by my know - how on the matter, to the best of my understanding, I would let those who are here stay and work towards eradication of this matter in the future.

-jasleen

Bonnie, you state that "The argument here should not be about the fact that these immigrants are Mexican, South Americans or any other nationality but that they are ILLEGAL."

The debate regarding immigration is particularly interesting because what is "illegal" can change: an illegal immigrant can, with a stroke of Congress' pen, be legal. The question is whether some or all of those who are classified as illegal today, should be declared legal through a change in immigration law.

In other words, something being illegal doesn't preclude us from discussing whether that thing should remain illegal. Relating this comment to the original post - if we accept illegal status as the 'be all, end all' of a discussion, slaves themselves would still be in chains.

Dave:

You state".....what is "illegal" can change: an illegal immigrant can, with the stroke of Congress'pen be legal.

Hmmmmm this logic sounds eerily similar to what Bush wants to do regarding his illegal wiretapping of American citizens. Break the law, then retroactively change the law so you haven't broken the law. Scrambled logic?

I honestly do not think writing another law will solve the problem. We have perfectly sound laws regarding immigration but they are not being enforced. We should ask ourselves why and who benefits? Is it the people who get "cheap labour" or is it the immigrants who supposedly have a better life than they did in their home country? Is it mutually beneficial? Are the rest of us being made fools of by both..and does it matter?

I also reject the slave analogy. There are legal ways to immigrate and work in the US. If being a US citizen is what they want, then shouldn't they respect that to which they aspire. This is the question immigrants should ask themselves. Or do they just want to manipulate the system. I am sure there are many in both camps.

At any rate, I think that until the root of the problem is solved, we here will have illegals for a long time to come. The root being conditions in the countries of origin.

I pray that changes for the better.

Bonnie

Aloha Back Patty:

Not sure I would call the use by the US of 1/3 of energy in the world as criminal but I will call it unwise..

We can always task ourselves to change for the better, but I question whether by our changing other countries will change for the better. Just as the US will continue using 1/3 of the energy until it hurts too much not to change or there is a catalyst to change. I will send my thoughts in that direction. That I think is all that I have the power to do.

Yes I agree, we are all guests on this planet and we are all mirrors.

Bonnie

Dave Sidhu: You fired off a really clean, to-the-point, and practical-reality blog here; and the posters have responded in kind, Thank You.

What kind of America would we have if all those first waves of immigrants had to pass today's litmus tests.

Our 'rules of law' need to account for the vast population swells that have hit every part of the world--just the last 3-4 decades have seen the world population more than double, and it's beginning to look like a geometric swell, not a linear arithmetic one.

Building "walls" to keep "them" out is the same as imprisoning ourselves--America, and the world at large, is a vast melting pot, N'est Pas?

God loves "wondrous variety," so it is not possibly the "higher will," if you will, to keep anybody out--but yours, and Scott Masterton's profiles of the situation show that the "answers" are, as always, somewhere in the middle-gray area, less in the way of hard-and-fast 'rule-of-law.'

Buckminster Fuller showed economically that there are more than enough resources on this planet for everyone to experience life on this planet as if he/she were a "millionaire," and God knows we've certainly got the space available--but the rub of it is that there is interests like those given in Patty's posted interview about the likes of those who fit this "illuminati" profile--power and greed, and the "haves and have-nots," and who they shall be.

Like Joaquin, I do not propose to have the answers to the seeming "economic and human imponderables," but until I do, I'm certainly not into the Bush-version of anything.

Dubai, interestingly, has verily the same problems that erupt from such runaway economic growth and change; and it is very much like Las Vegas in it's use of immigrant labor for building a big-and-better "New Babylon."

Until we begin to "get it," that individual people are the basis of it all, and the "bottom line" comes from that, and not the other way around, we will continue to sink in the quagmires we've created with our nationalist interests, now completely inflamed with the corporate veils that give a business the ability to sidestep all forms of accountability, and yet maintain equal, or greater rights, than the individual entity with all rights vested, that "it" is legally identified as.

I do feel these massive, and almost always peaceful protests, are vitally important to the changes-across-the-board that are needed to make our swelling global civilization a viable one--sustainable, and with a real future--and King George Bush & Co.'s plans are not a viable reality for sustaining civilization--except of course, "their" tribe! Dave

Scott & Dave,

Your posts are well thought out and make much sense! ... enjoyed reading them!

Regards.

Additionally...what does "legal" mean in the context of a land/government/people/set of laws that can be made to justify years upon years of invasion, war, and other tidbits (e.g., torture, rendition, wars of aggression, etc)?

We are not bound by this Universe to any Man's law. We are bound by what we know to be right in our heart. If a person feels it is right to criminalize people trying to better themselves; if a person feels it is right to kill and die for soil, or to make felons those who lend a hand to hungry women and children or humans who speak another language, then I cannot argue them.

I will act upon my conscience, as I'm sure you will. My conscience never tells me to exclude or condemn or hate others. Never once. Only my ego and my greed and my fear tell me such types of things.

Aloha Bonnie

If you agree we are all guests on this planet and we are all mirrors I don’t understand how you can question if we have the power to change other countries it wouldn’t be for the better. The world is inside of us. We reside in a universe of a net of diamonds. When one diamond connects to another the whole net connects.

What I feel what the illegal immigrants (who risked being visible in marching) are saying is, “Trust in Yourself.” I am sure you know justified anger and unjustified anger is unhealthy and that is why it is so important to look where your identity resides. As you identify we are all guests and mirrors you connect the diamonds of the universe. I can’t see how that is un-American. We live in a quantum self-correcting Universe. Love patty

Only prohibitively attractive people should be awarded the adjective "illegal." (e.g. Deepak's son is illegal.) How can a person be legal or illegal? Undocumented, yes.

Here's an analogy for undocumented people who have been living and working here with us for quite some time: common-law spouse. The state has nodded as we all raised kids together, shared chores, paid taxes and attended church together. Once you're that settled in, even the state recognizes that there's a very deep connection.

I say we celebrate another amnesty and then actually start enforcing the immigration laws that are on the books. We can afford it (we're rich), and it would show integrity.

well said, Joaquin!

I have to make decisions in my life; which bear my responsibility; to do my utmost best, to ensure security of freedom and liberty for my son and family.

I could never tell another, to not come here. This earth is so big, so much room.

It is us humans, whom congregate in small spaces; which of course, causes the push & shove effect.

Then, the have's don't want to have less.

The have-not's are no longer happy with never having.

Our thoughts, our greed; is what is the chaos of today's society.

WE tip the scales so low, we put ourselves at risk for World war III.

At this point, I hope every immigrant in north america, escaping a country with death as an option, torture as a possible, is allowed to flee here!! Work here!

Sadly, it is often immigration people; whom prevent honest, hard-working immigrants from gaining access to legal status!!

I am a woman on disability. I am treated the same way at offices of the like.

WE must rise above ourselves.. to turn this tide in favour of mankind.

North

There has been a ton of stuff on NPR on the issues of immigration, and many good points have been made (both for and against) by a variety of people in different sectors.

Personally, I like the new Spanish version of the national anthem - it is a softer, more supple version of the original but I do wonder if all the boycotting and marching etc. isn't going to yield a backlash of negativity not just from the conservatives who might actually support legalization of undocumented workers but from xenophobic Americans who fear that we could become a nation of Hispanics.

I favor the Kennedy/McCain bill but it won't solve the immigration problem - more illegals will come in to replace those who have been legalized. Is that so horrible? Not to me.

But I am not so sure that all the press that the marches have generated will be the cannonball of reform or the cannonball on the foot.

BTW, Sumiti - I alluded to Darfur in a post some time back but that got lost in what actually spiraled into a very negative personal thread.

But don't worry - celeb George Clooney (are you reading this Rahul?) has taken it on which will resuscitate the press it receives in this country. This will bring it back to the major networks as opposed to being forever stuck on PBS after primetime - at least for a while.

Joaquin -
"Additionally...what does "legal" mean in the context of a land/government/people/set of laws that can be made to justify years upon years of invasion, war, and other tidbits (e.g., torture, rendition, wars of aggression, etc)? "

Huh?

Last time I checked, being an illegal alien was not a felony, and so it has not been "criminalized". Having said that if someone is here by means other than legal means, they are here illegally. This is not to cast judgement, only to use a term that is correct rather than one that is muddied in political correctness. Words mean things and to me "undocumented" does not sum up the problem. And it is a problem. All countries have the obligation to protect their borders and citizens from possible harm and knowing who is coming into the country is part and parcel of that.

If someone moves into your house without your knowledge or permission they are not "Undocumented residents" that are entitled to all the rights that you have in your home...they are there illegally. If they knock on your door and request permission to rent a room from you, or if you invite them to stay and you are willing to pay for everything, then they are there legally and would be considered legal residents.

Peace,
Scott.

Hi, Scott~
My point was that illegal doesn't work as an adjective for a person. The adverb illegally is fine for someone who is here illegally. That person doesn't have documents to show that he or she got a stamp coming in.

LS

Aloha Scott

I feel there is a big difference between the words illegal and guest.

A Native American girlfriend of mine and I went up to a Hawaiian Hahu. It is a sacred area where there is a circle of stones where people go to pray for loved ones. There are altars in the circle where you may place a prayer stone (a stone wrapped in a tei leaf). After we had placed our prayer stones and we were scraping the mud off our shoes to get into the car a young man approached us. He started to say something about the Hahu and the Bible and my friend interrupted him. She said, “I bet you think I am Hawaiian and you are a Christian and believe in the 10 Commandants.” He said, “Yes.” She then said, “Well I am Indian and I would like to know if you believe in the 10 Commandants how you could have stolen our land and rapped our young men?”

Right now the Hawaiians are fighting for their seeded lands and it doesn’t look too good. Once we draw a line in the sand of yours and mine we are split. That is the problem. The resolution is to lift the lines. We have to make the quantum leap to know families aren’t born under one roof but under one sky. We are not about houses and cars. We are about empowering life.

Love patty

Scott:

Well said and part of the point, I have been trying to make.

Peace

Bonnie

Scott:

Well put. Part of the point I have been trying to make.

Peace

Bonnie

Aloha Patty!

"She said, “I bet you think I am Hawaiian and you are a Christian and believe in the 10 Commandants.” He said, “Yes.” She then said, “Well I am Indian and I would like to know if you believe in the 10 Commandants how you could have stolen our land and rapped our young men?”

While I truly find nothing more obnoxious then religious zealouts out so "save me" by explaining how "wrong" I am. Had I been the young man that you and your friend met I would have responded by reminding your friend that:

"I personally did not rape your women or any woman, and the odds are you were not personally raped. If you were raped tell me how I can help you, but blaming me for it because my skin is white is the same as blaming every Japanese for Pearl Harbor, or every Muslim for 9/11.

"I personally had nothing to do with the taking of your land or your culture; in fact, all these things that happened to your ancestors happened to a genetic relative of yours. It's quite possible (even likely) that my ancestors were living somewhere in Europe when all of this happened, so it is more than possible that I am not even related to anyone that took these actions. So you can spend a lot of time being mad at someone who had nothing to do with an atrocity that didn't happen to you OR you can focus on how to uplift your people in the NOW and we can talk about how I can help.

"One of these will bear fruit and I suspect that you know which will be of the most value."

My point is not be glib or downplay a terrible time in the history of the U.S., but there really isn't anything that we can do about what happened in the past. We can acknowledge it, we can use it to become more conscious of our future choices and how they can impact, but hanging on to our story, not matter how sad it was is valueless to the now.

Immigration is a problem that we are experiencing now. This is an opportunity to find some real answers and make some really changes that will benefit everyone including (and especially) those living in poverty who feel their only way out is to leave their families and risk life an limb to cross a border for work.

Peace,
Scott.

Aloha Scott

Well I hope you would not be overly zealous and obnoxious to approach two women at a sacred place of worship and try to educate them. We did not approach the young man he approached us just as the Europeans came to America and American business people came to Hawaii.

Today Native people are allowed to practice their own religion. As my friend has said, never worry about an Indian the American government will always build them a house.

And how can you help is by being accountable is acknowledging that we are all guests under One sky. It is time we are open minded and teachable that we are all equal not legal or illegal.

Love patty

Hi Patty -

No, I would not be overzealous and approach anyone at a sacred sight and attempt to lecture them about how they "should" believe...although my beliefs are probably more aligned with your friends beliefs than with your hapless Christian "friends".

The native peoples of Hawaii and the Americas frankly got screwed. But land migration and wars were not new to native peoples in the Americas; they fought constantly for hunting grounds, protein and survival of their tribes. Ultimately the native people of the Americas were subsumed by a larger tribe of Europeans. The native peoples lost their lands and much of their culture, just like the Romans subsumed the Celtic and Gaulic tribes of Europe and the British Isles. The Celts and the Gauls too mourned the loss of their native tongues, religious traditions and traditional hunting grounds. Okinawa has become part of Japan when it too had always been distinctly seperate with a seperate language and religious traditions.

There is not one of us that can't count among our ancestors people that did not lose their heritage and traditions.

I believe that the next stage in human evolution will come with an end to tribalism. An end to all of this need to see seperation between Us and Them.

So getting back to the immigration problem, I believe the focus must be on encouraging Mexico to change. Mexico is a beautiful country with many resources and wonderful people. But they cannot move ahead because corruption is so much a part of the system...so much a part of the way that you do anything. Who would leave Mexico for North Dakota if there were opportunity there? No one would. So rather than focus on ways to encourage more people to come to the States, we need to find ways to encourage the growth of justice and peace in Mexico and other countries that are struggling. NOT by jamming democracy down their throat, but by demonstrating what a free society has to offer and by investing purchasing dollars and intention into Mexican owned business. When the tables are more equal, then a relationship like the U.S. and Canada have will just naturally arise.

There are many questions and many answers, but I believe that whatever humans dream and can imagine can be made manifest. It's simply a process of finding out where to put our intentions.

Peace,
Scott.

Aloha Scott

To act collectively we must begin individually. To reform the world he/she must understand he/she is the world. It is always as Amit Goswami shares in Self-Aware Universe that the untangled hierarchy is the quantum field. The only place we have to go is up. Mahalo for your dreams and imagination for miracles will manifest. We are a non-duel One. Love patty