Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
Kavita Chhibber - May 24, 2006
I recall being around ten or twelve
and sitting in my maternal uncle’s garden, when a neighbor’s daughter who must have been about 20 came in to the house and complained to uncle that some men were passing lewd comments as she walked past them to catch a bus. So could he send one of his security guards to escort her to the bus stop?
Uncle took one look at her short skirt and said-“look at how you are dressed. You are talking about lewd comments, the fact that you dress so inappropriately is why girls get raped and molested. You bring it on yourself. Go and change into something decent, and I’ll get the guards to take you there.” The girl hung her head and went back.
At that time I was too young to realize that what my uncle had uttered was a blatantly sexist remark. As I grew older, I realized, it didn’t matter what you wore, or how much you covered yourself, many of my girl friends were often blamed by their families for drawing attention to themselves. When I went to interview celebrities, I was always escorted by a soldier with a gun, because my dad who never had a sister, was overtly protective of his 17 year old daughter venturing into the world of men by insisting on becoming a sports journalist and interviewing “all those jocks”. What was funny was that most male celebrities approved and took it totally in their stride and one well known sportsman even mentioned to his wife-see this is how girls from good families conduct themselves..no matter what they do in life they are always properly escorted.”
So I could have been a hooker on the street, but if I was demurely dressed and escorted by a man I automatically became a “good girl” in the eyes of the world.
Today when I look at the Kobe Bryant case, the case of the lacrosse runners from Duke university, accused of raping two women against their will, the women too scared to come forward, because of the stigma of being known as a raped woman and a gold digger, many comments not just from men but from women, have come my way. Many of these comments suggested that indeed these two women are likely gold diggers who want to make money off of this. Not one of them stopped to think that Kobe Bryant or these lacrosse runners may have violated these women, that even in the new millennium, it requires a lot of courage to come forward if you are a woman, to accuse a man of wrong doing. I see so many women stay in abusive, dysfunctional marriages because they are so scared of losing respectability in the eyes of the world. Somehow having a tag of Mrs. so and so, makes them a cut above the other.
A thought provoking article that Kaveetaa Kaul sent me, and it was published in this month’s issue of my online mag carried this report from the BBC. The report said
“Women get blame for being raped"
Fewer than 6% of reported rapes result in a conviction. A third of people believe a woman is partially or completely responsible for being raped if she has behaved flirtatiously, a survey suggests. The Amnesty International poll of 1,000 people also found over 25% believe she is at least partly to blame if she has worn revealing clothing or been drunk.
Amnesty says the "shocking" findings show government policies are failing. The director of public prosecutions told the BBC, the report "highlights some areas of real concern".
Ken Macdonald QC, who is in charge of prosecutions in England and Wales, spoke to BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour.
"The idea that a third of our people think that if a woman flirts she has only herself to blame if she is raped is, I think, quite shocking," he said.
"These are jury trials. The jury is the community in the courtroom and it is reasonable to suppose the jury brings into the courtroom a lot of the attitudes we have been reading about."
You can read the rest of Kaveetaa’s article on my website, but for me these discussions raised another question-are many women also to blame for not raising their sons to treat women with respect? I see in many households men treating women the way their fathers treated their mothers.
Does that behavior-good or bad spill over into the work space and other spaces where men and women work together? Or as one lady said when her son was harassing a girl-oh boys will be boys. Just last weekend at a movie star live concert, a close friend’s husband leered in front of his wife and asked me if I could introduce him to the sexy actress back stage, since I had access to the actors.. he went on to say his standards had been lowered by his marriage and so he wanted to raise them now. His charming wife stood there with a fixed smile, pretending it was a joke and swallowing the insult. She told me later she doesn’t believe in divorce and again that she has such a cushy lifestyle and he hasn’t been unfaithful in deed, only in words, so she is staying put .
Also do women behave towards men as they see their mothers behave towards their fathers..do they become submissive when they see their mothers give in to abuse. I have seen it work both ways. I remember a woman telling me when I did a story on divorce..well my dad used to beat my mom 16-17 times in a month..my husband only raises his hand on me once or twice..so its not a big deal..and I have a very good life style..why would I want to give it up for a few slaps here and there. But there was another one who chose to walk away and went on to excel in academics and finally her brother and she pulled their mother out of the marriage she had suffered in so long because of fear and stigma.
I see many women say-oh I didn’t leave because of the children, when in truth they didn’t leave because they were scared, or financially dependent or just too lazy to make the huge change. Many who left were blamed by the family-oh she must have done something wrong. I have also seen many well adjusted happy children of divorced parents and many messed up kids of parents who stayed together in an unhappy relationship. Many of my girl friends are refusing to marry young because they “ don’t want to end up like my mom”. And there are others when talk of marriage came up whose first words were” I want a guy just like my dad.”
I have met far too many good men to feel that there is a gene in men that makes them ticking time bombs ready to erupt at the slightest provocation-I have also seen men being emotionally abused by some women, but by and large the number of men sexually, physically or emotionally harassing women surpasses the number of women doing the same thing, if one looked at organizations handling cases of abuse of any kind and checked numbers as I did for the story on divorce. What is the reason for that and are women too at fault for allowing this to happen?
I’d love to have all of you on intent share your thoughts, what you’ve learnt from your own life’s experiences about this.
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Posted by Kavita Chhibber at May 24, 2006 06:55 AM
Comments
Hello Kavita and Everyone,
Last night I watched a PBS show, Frontline, about sex trafficking. This program was about the sex traffic between Russia and Turkey. Women thinking they have jobs waiting in Turkey are being sold as sex slaves. Pretty horrific stuff awaits these women. In one case a sex trafficker was arrested but when it was time for his trial the victim was not notified of the date and the man who could have gotten 5 to 10 years was given 5 years probabtion. It seems in Russia sex trafficking is NO BIG DEAL. Hey, boys will be boys.
This morning on CNN online faces of women from the Congo, victims of rape, victims of a depravity that is swallowing a Continent.
After watching this program and reading this article I am left feeling vulnerable, frightened for myself as a Woman, and for all Women of the world.
On the one hand you want to believe that we are moving toward an enlighted future for humanity, on the other we have depravity, depravity with an AK-47 in his hand.
If Women are to blame it is because we are not shouting, not standing up as a Gender to empower ourselves against the depravity that uses us and then throws us aside at it's whim.ruth
Men abusing women, women abusing men
Question: What is the reason for that and are women too at fault for allowing this to happen?
Answer: "...there is a gene in men that makes them ticking time bombs ready to erupt at the slightest provocation-"
And perhaps there is a genie in women "that makes them ticking time bombs ready to erupt at the slightest provocation-"
A corrigendum
The question must read as follows:
Question: "What is the reason for that and are women too at fault for allowing this to happen?"
And now an addendum: It seems it is all foreordained in genes and genies.
Impulse! A lot of people react to thier "impulse's" and have never learned to control this outbursts, which may actuall become contrary of a normal behaviour action.
Most of us look and admire youth and beauty. Society has taught us since the beginning of humankind, that perfection of body and face, were as rare as a desert flower.
WE see a rose. We either are moved to stare and admire it's beauty; or one might have a "need" to have it, as a possession.
I find, men are possessive of women-always have been. But, slowly over the past twenty years, we have seen a drastic stance against sexual abuse.
It is wrong for men to submit women to their sexual fantasy-impulse's. It is wrong for women to be the same way.
Respect, shouldn't be an option; respect for each other should be the normal behaviour action.
Some people, just can't control their impulse's. Some people walk around with anger/hate for the opposite sex, due to upbrining, and negative experience, with the opposite sex; rejections perhaps, or an over-bearing mother, and/or sisters and Aunts?
Regardless, it is each of our responsibility to respect each other's "space" which is technically, an arms length from each other!
All we can do, is raise our son's and our daughter's to respect another's life and space. Unfortunately, not enough parents adhere to their parental responsibility!
North
(really long, sorry!)
My dad was a fantastic father as i remember him - when i went to california to stay with him every summer.. and he'd call me every day in ohio to see how my day had gone. He somehow managed to not get drunk around me (except once.. but thats more than you want to know). I have no idea how, but he did. I'm lucky.
Unfortunately my mom wasn't so lucky. After they got together and married she realized he was an alchoholic. And an abusive one. Mentally, emotionally, physically. It was awful for her, but at the same time when my dad wasn't drunk, he was the greatest guy in the world. They loved eachother passionately.. but my mom knew that it wasn't right to have to take his abuse. She knew how wrong it was for him to hit her. She tried running away lots of times.. but her love always drew her right back. She prayed for a daughter.. a little girl that would give her the strength to leave him once and for all.
She did get pregnant, and everyone told her it would be a boy - but she knew this was the answer to her prayer, she knew it was a girl. I took a lot of (non physical.. i think) abuse before i was born. They say you get influenced by these things even in the womb. After i was born, he fell in love with me. I became the epitomy of daddy's girl. But still, dad had a disease, and he couldn't stop no matter how hard he tried. Finally when i was 2 or so, mom laying sobbing on the couch, and I walked up to her, looked into her eyes, and wiped her tears away. Mom said it was the most eerie thing in the world.
After that, mom filed for divorce once and for all and took me back to ohio, where she was from. Where we could live with her parents a while so she could get on her feet (she left with nothing but a bag of our clothes and my toys), and so that she would really not go back again.
It took a long time, many attempts, and me, but she did finally leave an abusive situation. Where most people want to stay together for the kids, i was born to give her the courage to leave (after over a decade). She did the right thing, even though she is still to this day deeply in love with him, but she has had to face the consequences of being a single mother. She never joined the church i grew up in and our family goes too - because she always felt (rightly or wrongly) looked down on by all the couples. She says all the women take a single woman as a threat and keep themselves and their husbands away. Since moving back, mom has had a couple of not-serious boyfriends, and barely even 2 gal friends.. but since they are both married she never gets to see either of them.
Mom did the right thing, yet she's still been living like she was in punishment. She works in a factory, and has two kids to support. She never got remarried because she never wanted another man in the house with me.. which was also the request of my dad. Then when I was 12, my dad's liver gave out and he died.. and I'll always remember her sobbing at the phone. I think she still considers herself a window now, even though they were legally divorced. I hear her talking to him all the time, angry that he left and now she had to deal with me on her own. Her life has made her quite tough, and quite angry which unfortunately and unwittingly to her became verbal and emotional abuse towards me... and lots of programming which has made me growing up like i'm a hardened not-trusting-men outcast of society - that i'm still trying to deprogram so i can have a normal life.
Abuse definately goes round in cycles. It infiltrates the psyches of all involved, including the children, whoes lives and interactions it also interferes with, and then they pass it down to their children. Abuse is a virus.
Wow this is long. thats my experience with it. I haven't gone into how its all effected me as much, but its tremendous. Ha, i'm actually writing a script about them and this whole situation now, so its a timely post. I really think abuse, espeically non-physical is extremely overlooked by society in honestly, so these things happen to the dark, and with little available to illuminate these people and help them understand psychology and all thats going on, little ever improves until it gets so bad that someone basically breaks down and its either get better, break the cycle - or death. And fortunately, i reached that point early in my life and i chose to change things and break the cycle. But its sad things have to get so bad, first.
Dear Kavita,
Good article, you have raised several interesting points. Here are my observations:
Children are abused sexually, boys and girls. I have noticed in Indian society and there it is much more prevalent than is commonly acknowledged. The abusers are both men and women, though I wouldn't claim to know the statistics or whether it is men or women who do it more often.
I agree with you that just because a girl clothes herself invitingly or seductively does not justify rape. However, in the end what matters to the girl is what happened not why it happened. Perhaps you should see your uncle's remarks in that light. We are all biased in our own ways, because of our upbringings and society, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was indeed sexist. One should not throw caution to the winds and be oblivious to the surroundings. I would advise the same to muslims (women in particular, but men as well in some cases). Dress cautiously especially considering the location you are going to and the people there. You wouldn't want to be caught in an unpleasant situation just because you wanted to exercise your right.
Regards,
Ravi Kulkarni
Kavita,
No matter how revealingly a woman is dressed, rape or molestation is indefensible. Under every circumstance, indefensible. Plain and simple.
But let's take up the issue separately. I, for one, don't understand why women (a large percentage, mind you) have to dress like that. I mean, why do they have to show their bodyparts to an extent that side of dignified? Why do they have to dress phoneyly and show their innerwear to the world? How can they not squirm if the whole wide world gets to see what they are wearing under their tops/jeans/skirts/whatever? What kind of behaviour is this, really?
And stop before you jump it here. The point-of-view is not sexist at all. I am eqally disgusted by the useless, crude male samples of humanity who wear jeans too loose.
To me, it's a matter of taste. I can't be even a trifle impressed with women like that. For the same reason I can't be a fan of people who scratch their crotch in public, beat up their wives, hurl abuses in formal gatherings, exhibit the maximum of arrogance, and so on.
That can't come to mean the men are suddenly free to pass lewd remarks loudly, chase and rape women dressed as such but again, don't expect respect. When was the last time you looked lovingly at the guy who passed noises from strange places sitting in the bus or brushed his nose-pickings under the seat? Honest now. See, a matter of taste again.
Truth is, we all loathe things in bad taste. So anything even remotely sexually abusive I will never condone but a scornful, dismissive brush of hand for such women, and I won't die of surprise.
Here is something interesting - through ages - on abusive women:
“Kali, the Hindu mother goddess, is both life-giver and destroyer; she wears a necklace of skulls on her blood-smeared breasts. The Aztec Earth goddess Coatlicue, about to be slain by her progeny, popped another son from her womb to whack his wicked siblings. Cybele, the incestuous Greek deification of Mother Earth, had an all-male cult that culminated its rituals of dancing, drumming and sword-clanging with self-castration, cross-dressing and the assumption of female identities.
I leave you to deconstruct that last one. But if Cybele's pagan trannies were trying to get into a peace group, they needn't have removed their testicles at the door.”
~Judith Levine
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/columns/poli-psy-psyche.html
I sometimes finding myself gag when i see skankily dressed girls, are guys with their belt loops at their knees, but then i remember:
Clothes are just a cultural thing.
Showing your stomach in India isn't that odd, but if a girl shows her stomach in america, its slutty. Women in tribes all over the world walk around with no tops of any sort, and its not odd and in someplaces its not right to show the hair on your head.
Why do we encourage conformity? That women especially need to dress as appropriate for our culture? Espeically people like us who encourage thinking for yourself and NOT with the rest of the sheep. So why are prejudices on clothing still help without thought? Why is it bad to show the body? Animals don't go around covering their 'shame'. Why should it be shame? Theres nothing unholy or shameful about the human body.
Sure, people couldn't start walking down the street naked and not get arrested or become the object of a lotta sexual energy directed at them.. but thats cultural. Do you think thoes tribal people get turned on anytime they look at any woman because they dont have tops on? No.. its not out of the ordinary.. thats just what women look like.. as opposed to 'societies' where you dont see it all the time, so it just gets people excited. But it starts in the mind. Why judge people even if they did walk around without any fabric draped over them? Why do we assume they are trying to dishonor themselves or trying to get attention of people? Maybe they just like their body. Like you like your eyes so you don't walk around with eyepatches on. And even if they are doing it for attention.. even if they were in a suit of tin armor, they'd be doing something else to get the attention.. so it their attitude, not the clothes.. the clothes are truely insignifican't, just a tool for whatever the wearer wants.
I have no idea if i made any sense there... but i tried.
--What is the reason for that and are women too at fault for allowing this to happen?
It is a bias, if we blame the victim of domestic voilence, generally woman, for her fate.
In a study, subjects were told two versions of a story about an interaction between a woman and a man. Both variations were exactly the same, except at the very end the man raped the woman in one and in the other he proposed marriage. In both conditions, subjects viewed the woman's IDENTICAL actions as inevitably leading to the VERY DIFFERENT results.
Studies have shown that those who believe in a "just world" may be more likely to believe that rape victims must have behaved seductively, battered wives must have deserved their beatings, that sick people must have caused their own illness, or that the poor deserve their lot.
If women are the victims they are not at fault.
It is the Man who is the agressor who is to be blamed and held accountable for.
Dear Ameya.. amazing disclosure-a critical perspective on this subject. I admire your courage to face this with such grace and humbleness. My Mom too, had to leave an abusive husband; though he didn't drink then. He was a control-freak, beater, starved Mom and us kids. One day, we should write books about our stories; because even though some may see it as karmic, others as whining, yet those in the "now" will see it's capacity of messages...
A woman's sexuality.. is her beast of burden; what I don't understand is.. how can men be so careless and reckless, with the life-bearer's of men(and women)?
It would be interesting to know what makes a man or woman, cross those lines of decent morality, an apparent flaw in their character?
WE all know right from wrong; what makes a person cross that line?
I've had nasties happen to me in life too, just for being a woman; yet, I've never crossed that line?
Why do some people break this code of honour; and some don't?
Ameya.. you have spoken well and proud; on behalf of all of us single parents, striving to raise our children in an unjust global society.
I go through many of these same issues your Mom faces(d) for fifteen years now. It has made me stronger; yet, perhaps now, too-far detached, with an echo of cynical? I was an Eucharistic Minister at my Parish the past ten years(retired Feb/06) and in that entire ten years; was constantly scrutinized, segregated and gossiped about. I was accepted in that supposed house of God, by one woman, and my beloved priest Des, now deceased.
Needless to say, lone-parent women, tend to self-isolate, and abandon our desire for a social-place.
WE merely do not fit into the social-palate?
Regardless of my social counterparts-I never stop swimming among them...there is only one "way" and it was intended for ALL.
God Bless you and your Mom-your courages, and your willingness to express this issue from experience.
North
North
Hi Kavita -
No woman deserves to be raped or harrassed no matter how they are dressed. As others here have said, what is provocative in one culture may be the norm or even conservative in another culture.
Now, the other side of this. I think sometimes what is viewed as harrassment is just really bad courting. I don't say this to minimize harrassment, only to suggest that there are some so socially inept that think that waggling their tongue at a woman on the street is somehow a "chick" lure (despite many attempts as a dorky adolescent, I have found this never to work...however this never seems to stop sixteen year old guys from trying this hapless technique). While we all agree that dressing provocatively is not and never has been an open invitation to rape, dressing provocatively is a bit of an advertisement that you are an available male/female and interested in some sort of sexual attention, be it flirting or a relationship. Teenage girls that wear hip hugger jeans with their thong strings showing KNOW that this has an affect on teenage boys...that's why they do it. It's no different than dressing in a bathing suit to go swimming or a business suit to go to work or a wedding gown to marry. Certain clothing has certain connotations that society attaches to them.
How you dress, move and speak sends signals to other people. So I think it's fair to say that you will probably get a certain amount of attention from the opposite sex if you wander around with barely anything on. Just as you get a different response when you dress in a business suit, a formal gown or sweatshirt and baggy jeans. They all send different messages.
Peace,
Scott.
Yea you are right. The dress does not determine who should be raped and who not. If that would be true, then no muslim woman wearing burkha never would not have been raped. Almost every day the newspaper writes about raping of a abnormal, mentaly retarted girl. They never wear short skirt to be sure. So why were they being raped? Dress of a girl is not an invitation to rape. A criminal of this type needs no invitation.
Kavita: I was waiting for a post from you all these days. I had been busy so could not get to Intent anyways.. but it takes your post to get my thoughts going anyways! :-)
Ameya: VERY touching story.. reading your comments and your blog I always had a high regard for you.. now all that has gone up manifolds!! YOu are indeed lucky to have a Mother like yours!!
Treating women as sex objects - I think it is the weakness of men themselves.. In many religions, women are supposed to be dressed in a certain manner lest they "lure" men.. or live in a certain place lest the men get to see them and go beserk....
.. it is as if.. men dont have any balls which can control their "stunted sexuality"!! The urge and the need to subjugate others is one that is born in the minds of the oppressors and has nothing to do with the oppressed!
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com
Aishwarya Rai confessed to journalists in Cannes during the premier of her new film “Provoked” about a real life victim of domestic violence that she was a victim of domestic violence herself for a long period of time during a troubled relationship with her ex-boy friend.
A woman has to be blamed for not coming out of a violent relationship,
Woman has to be blamed for not reporting to authorities about rape, sexual abuse or exploitation due to social stigma.
It is like a sick person who doesn’t take medication but accepts his/her fate (Karma)
….for some men cannot help it. It is a Sicilian thing which runs through the family for generations.
If the women come out strongly against such violations by men, it would make the oppressor think twice before he oppresses one more time.
Women have long suffered from violence. It is time for more men to be held accountable for. Women can make a difference and bring a change, and hold a leash on the trespassers.
Kavita, I just want to say I'm glad you're back again and I miss you when you're not around--BTW, this is a very interesting topic.
Ameya, YOU are a very strong person! Thank you so much for this story--it inspires me to go on with my own personal writings about growing up and my family. Many times I've thought about being brave enough to post a story or two on this blog, but I just don't have the nerve I guess. So I'm seconding North's suggestion of all of us writing our own stories. I've often thought of it as "whining" too, but really it's more something I've just been avoiding.
Anyways, I know of a Mormon couple where for years the woman in the relationship has been a victim of constant verbal abuse and some minor physical abuse. And do you know why she is still in that relationship and she won't leave her husband? Because the *bishop* of her church told her not to!
Quote unquote, It's better for the kids.
Well, the kids are all grown up and she's still there...And really it's very sad that someone can have that kind of control over someone else.
Men need to be blamed completely for these offenses towards women. Generally we hear of women in abusive marriages, why does she stay? But we need to start asking, why is a man so weak that he beats his own wife--the woman he is supposed to love. Why does society, along with the man's family, normally either look the other way or actually condone the behavior.
I feel very strongly about this topic. People need to get very clear that abuse of women is wrong. A woman may stay for any number of reasons. These situations oftentimes become very difficult for a woman to extricate herself from. We need to start holding men accountable. It is very easy to get caught up in asking why the woman stays but it is a complex weave of problems oftentimes entrapping the woman in the abusive marriage. I am more interested in the question which asks why so many men lack the backbone to act like real men, to treat their families and wives with respect. These men who abuse women need to be exposed for what they are--total and complete cowards who have no respect for the family they are destroying.
Hypocrite,
I agree with your comment that people who want to believe in a "just world" will not quite grasp the concept that the agressor is at fault. People should stop blaming women for having an enraged man assault her for not completely fulfilling his demand that she act as his servant. It is amazing to me that this society is still in the Dark Ages when it comes to its understanding of abuse of women.
But Scott, surely when a man goes into automatic lust-mode; he may read a woman's sensuality wrong? Let us access that fact, at least as well?
Yes, some women like to pronounce their movements sensualy; this in no way should be regardes as an invitation to "invade" the woman?
Let's not displace responsibility for the man's attitude about self-restraint, respect and control of their "own" impulsive-desire?
North
Dear Hyp-let's access the victimization of women-abuse. The victim ultimately becomes "shell-shocked" in her existance.
Let us not forget, that every human being; will ultimately in time, free themselve's for survival-sake-it is instinctive.
However, an abuser takes away the victim's instincts to run; and rules with an iron fist, and fear of pain, deprivation and humiliation and death.
Who can free themselves' from such thick chains, when pounded down again and again? It takes a course of miracles to help break free frum such a rigid and en-cagedment of constant fear.
Sadly, some women never reach that stage before it's too late.
North
Dear North
I agree with you. It is tough for a woman to break the bonds and escape from the vicious circle of domestic violence and the loss of hope.
I think that all the problems in this world including domestic violence are closely related. The suppression of the feminine nature of spirituality by the materialistic masculine in the human societies hasn't changed much through the ages.
Materialistic instincts have grown over and below our spiritual existence.
Definately Hyp! Most definately.
North
Thank you every one-I just got back home after spending the whole day with a good friend from London and shopping with him for his wife-and on returning found my bedroom flooded with water from the ac..you can imagine how much it is when in spite of heavy carpeting, my feet went sqooosh as I stepped into the doorway..iam on to my fifth towel, the ac is off the temp in the 80s..so I will read the comments carefully in the morning while I wait for the crew to come and fix the damage.
Everyone has the responsibility to be respectful and to demand respect. Both men and women have a long way to go, but I believe I see progress in the United States. Recently I stayed "assertive" as my male boss tried to intimidate me. His brow furrowed and he called me "combative" after I didn't let him interrupt me. Really-- all I did was not let him interrupt me. Still, I didn't lose my job or anything, I just lost some brownie points. I'm going to study up on that fine art of communicating with men when you're a woman, because I live in the real world and can't expect my boss or similar people to suddenly become enlightened. At the same time, he's not excused for his behavior and if someday I rise to a position of power over him I will crush him. :)
Dear Kavita,
I am dashing now, for a late night concert, in a nearby coffee shop, but
I am sending over several fans to your place, pronto.
And some more towels, too.
Love,
~ Kate
(I have really missed you)
Its such a touchy topic. It seems very black and white. Don't abuse other people. And we condemn both the abuser and the abused (for not getting out of it). The verbal abuse of my mother by my father helped me to adopt the 'woman are victims' dogma of feminism 30 years ago. But when my sisters started to condemn my mother for not being stronger against my dad, it made me really reconsider personal responsibility of victims.
Too often we see women leave an abusive relationship, only to end up in another one. Why? The simple equation of abuse-equals-'goodbye' should work every time. Is there some deeper meaning in all this? And why do women support the abuse of other women so reflexively?
Western society has constructed itself to make this equation simple. Marriage is only a contract of emotions to create happiness. Women do not rely upon men for money, since they can work. And society is non-plussed about divorce now, expecting half of them to fail.
In relationships, I think it is more of a failure of the woman to seize her power, her wisdom, and her love, to force the abuser to see the error of his ways. She refuses to tell him the truth. If there is real love, caring, and wisdom into the issues of the abuser, there would be the courage to confront the jerk, come what may, and let him know the truth is not going to stop telling him what he doesn't want to hear. At least then, the punishment will be for a reason, not cowardice. And a real deeper relationship may develop if the abuser can accept the truth and change. But that is a choice for both involved. We are more interested in enforcing rules, which can actually mask over personal issues that are deep. Abuse is just an expression of something deeper in the individual, needing to see his own truth to come to a greater one.
I think that is what marriage is all about, two individuals confronting each others' 'shit' to learn and grow. There is a reason why a woman is in an abusive relationship that is given to her to deal with. How she uses her wisdom tells a lot about her. But our society is allergic to pain. There is no meaning in it. We just want it to stop. We don't want to face why it came in the first place. We believe we are innocent.
On the issue of rape, yes, it is a crime, soul murder in the case of children, massive trauma of the worst sort.
But I read a book years ago that gave an interesting counter point. Women gave confusing signals. A woman on a date says 'no' at the last moment. It found, statistically, that men who carried through with the act overwhelmingly got another date with the woman. However, the man who respected her request, did not. Odd. In the black and white world of rape, no means no, it should have been the opposite. Respect for a woman's wishes is paramount. It is plain that she says no, then the act should not take place. What gives in this bald communication by the female?
Do women really want to talk about these complexities about themselves? Do these two examples reveal why women condemn other women in abusive situations? Women have an understanding among themselves that does not get aired around men. Perhaps one of the ways to stop sexual abuse is for women to look inward instead of outward. Victims are more powerful than they realize. The black-and-white issue of rape is too often talked about in a very limited way. It is always saying 'stop the pain.' Then the issue becomes merely political, instead of spiritual.
Uncle is right (even though he said it wrong), if your neighbors are stupid and can't handle a simple mini-skirt and you need an escort to the bus, wear a long skirt over it and change at the party, be aware of where you are and the circumstances. These Russian girls who think they have jobs, that is terrible and criminal. Here in America the lines are blurred...
I don't think that men who make lewd comments and rapists are always in the same category. I think there needs to be a more clear distinction of what constitutes sexual harrassment, and a new category added called personal space invasion. Woman need to stand up for themselves in the moment if possible, and have an escape plan for new situations. If someone dares to touch me, whether in my mini skirt or space suit, then that's harrassment. Someone can say all the stupid shit they want to me as long as it's not threatening, and if I don't like it or like them, I'll fire right back verbally and usually they're sorry they opened their mouth, or it becomes a joke or an understanding.
I also don't go to men's apartments and hang out with men that have an obvious sexual interest in me that I am not attracted to. I don't lose vision and hearing when drinking. How women can be "talked" into bed in a dating situation, with a man they "sort of" like I don't understand. If I am actually harrassed or threatened, or a man displays inappropriate anger over something, I'm gone so fast they don't see me leave. I'm a small person and can't be fist fighting with people. Now if someone is making a joke or flirting and I like them and we have a good relationship or friendship, then I'm not so uptight that I call it sexual harrassment. Male idiots will always talk, hug and invade people's space; there are women like this too - they think because they are a woman that they can invade people's personal space hugging and touching. Then there are the nice men, too shy, afraid to ask a woman out, don't want to offend. Somewhere there needs to be a middle ground.
North -
I completely agree. Men are responsible for going over the top, and misinterpretations happen all the time. I was not addressing the obvious cases of sexual harassment (like propositions made in return for promotions at work or wherever), rather I was addressing everyday juvinile "cat calls" etc. That's kids stuff that most (certainly not all) men get over.
Peace,
Scott.
My parents are the most loving couple I have ever seen. They have been married for 46 years and they can't live without each other. My parents always say that they will go together.
My sister's marriage was a mistake, it wasn't so much bad from a husband but from the in-laws. It had gotten worse when she had twin daughters. Basically, husband couldn't do anything to defend his wife or said anything to his family but he started abusing my sister and when he badly shook three months old twins in anger, my sister thought that it should end. My sister left with just few clothes and toys to my parent’s house. My parents and brother are supporting her in every way.
Even till now she has not got all her stuff back even her college certificates and all, which she needed to, go back to school. She had to get all her transcripts again from India.
The worst thing for Indian divorced woman is the society (sometime the close relatives kill you). I know my in-laws have started treating me and my family differently after my sister’s divorce. My father-in-law thinks that divorce happens only when girl doesn't compromise. He thinks that today's girls are less tolerant and more independent and it results in divorce.
I think rape and divorce are considering bad thing in this society and to keep the so called status alive in the society, people try to hide it.
I am really glad that my parents don't care about what world have to say but what is good of their daughter and granddaughter comes first. They close their ears from gossip.
I don't know if any of these make sense; forgive my writing if it is bad. I just wanted to share my thought.
Sun Warrior,
While I am sure you are well-intentioned, what you just did was blame the woman. Now it is her job to "teach" the man the error of his ways??? Sun Warrior, how many of these men who are bullying their wives and getting away with it, do you think, want to see the error of their ways? And even if they can "see" the error of their ways, how many are interested in changing their ways and becoming equal, respectful partners? Also, many of these women are trying to point out these errors to the man. Few women have NEVER spoken up to their abuser or taken other very courageous stances against him.
This is one of the many reasons abusers will continue getting away with their bullshit. Women are blamed for so many things--whether it is the perception that they have failed to hold their families together or the perception that they have failed to rehabilitate their abuser when studies have shown that even professional batterer's programs have a very low rate of success turning these men around.
Don't you see that an abusive man would love to hear that his wife is at fault for his behavior? He will rejoice hearing this. It is a logic that feeds abuse. It is not a healing logic.
Desh, Tiffany and Kate-thank you for your kind words. Ameya, and SF, thank you for having the generosity to share your very personal stories.
Marek: You have a valid point in that many men don’t come forward to tell their personal stories of emotional abuse by their female partners. I know some of them. I still feel that unfortunately its women who bear the brunt, nevertheless.
Ruth, your point “If women are to blame it is because we are not shouting, not standing up as a Gender to empower ourselves against the depravity that uses us and then throws us aside at its whim” really hit home.
I realized in conversations with women who were highly educated and self sufficient financially, there were many who stayed in emotionally and physically abusive relationships because they were afraid of the stigma of being a divorcee..It is perhaps more intense in the south Asian community. Fear of the unknown and the known as perceived in their minds, is I think, the single most compelling reason why people don’t make changes for the better.
North: your words “Respect, shouldn't be an option; respect for each other should be the normal behavior action.” Is right on. Ravi, and Sumant thanks for your well written posts. I see many more case of sexual molestation coming to light these days, when all I heard growing up were hushed whispers about some uncle touching a friend or a teen relative inappropriately, and mom making it a point never to leave me alone anywhere with any male relative, help or friend.
Sumant, I personally feel there is grace and beauty in not being an exhibitionist, but again interpretation of what is being an exhibitionist and what is not is so relative.
Hypocrite’s comment “it is the Man who is the aggressor who is to be blamed and held accountable for,” made me think, because so many men say the opposite, just as my uncle for example did.
I also wonder like North has- when women wear revealing clothes how is it that not all men pounce on them or behave inappropriately”?
Scott I don’t know if wearing skimpy clothes is always an invitation that the person is available. Many of my friends have worn skimpy clothes when they have lost a lot of weight ,because they are so proud of the hard work they put in. But your post had me thinking..Why do certain young girls and women wear clothes in a provocative manner? I suspect many of them are struggling with low self esteem and that may be one way, pathetic as it may be to feel desired. Who taught these young girls to be this way? Here I see the role of prime time television and the kind of indecent content and exposure I see there. How many young girls want to be like Brittany Spears. I don’t know many who want to be like Mother Teresa in their teens.
It is a sad statement about the way we project woman hood and sexuality to girls. Some one had made this point that majority of the lead dramas on TV has women being portrayed as sex objects and not role models. I think the one series to the contrary which has Geena Davis as President is being cancelled?
Dulcie very thought provoking posts. Families do look the other way when a man abuses his wife in many cases asking the woman often to try and compromise. While life is all about compromise I have always felt very strongly that the major compromises must be the ones you want to make because the man or woman with you inspires enough love in your heart by their actions and deeds of love and kindness towards you.
My parents are very different people, and yet theirs is one of the best marriages because they have made their different point of views a point to learn something new from each other. Even little things have had them balance stuff- like for instance dad hates to shop and mom’s a shopaholic..So he will go with her and take a book and remain in the car reading, until she is done with shop hopping and shopping, and then take her out for dinner. In spite of having a chauffeur he will insist often on driving her there..and I think that is really cool.
Andrea and every body else thank you for your input. All of the posts made me think and am still thinking.
Kavita - you need to address this issue in a print publication for South Asians. Many of the people who would benefit from this are not plugged into the Internet/blog world...Please do a piece for Little India or Khabar on this topic.
Hi Anon,
thanks for the suggestion. A slightly longer piece is appearing in the next edition of my online issue. It is also appearing in my syndicated column for a southasian fortnightly emag, and being sent to the largest southasian emag in Canada.
I figure between just intent and three others I will be reaching about a million readers world wide. A start I guess and if it makes even one person think and make positive changes, I'd be grateful.
I have actually addressed many different aspects facing the southasian community in articles I've done for Khabar and Little India..a lot of those cover stories are also on my online emag..but let me see if I can do a cover feature related to this..
I think personally that this topic is really a universal part and parcel of humanity. May be certain cultural angles give a different twist to the same tale.
what do you think?
Dear Kavita,
Reading again your post, I feel certain that change is on the way. As long as we will honestly discuss this behavior, and you and other writers are willing to write about it. And those of us who are female and male (that covers the whole of human species) do not behave in harassing ways to each other, this problem will disappear from the earth.
I have not harassed another woman. I have never harassed a man. I have not always been kind in the way I have spoken about women, or men. I never want to return to those moments, or to say putdowns or make nasty remarks.
Don't you think we can appreciate feminine and masculine traits, with a sense of gratitude for our beingness, and enjoy it. Instead of critiquing, criticizing, and feeling bad about our bodies, our way of dress, and how others perceive us.
Can we have body appreciation day?
Love,
~ Kate
Did you get the a/c fixed?
You can keep the fans, just in case :)
Dear Kavita...Hi How are you? I'm fine. I think as Desh put it...your post got him to write. Same here. Your posts on Relationiships always have been a Treat to read. Depth, Realistic and so much more. You've a Very Deep understanding Dear Kavita...but the best part is The Spectrum that you talk about it. You can speak on both the ends of the Spectrum...goes to show how wide your horizons are. Keep it up!! Is what I've always told you about this.
But Kavita...I've always wondered, Have you Ever Fallen in Love?? Did you experience it? The reason why I'm saying this to you is, I've known you for a while on Intent, but have always felt that this Woman should fall in Love to know what people do in that State. The kind of phobia which you talk sometimes and the so many other negative emotions which people talk in relationships DISSOLVE. You've known about such relationships, I've. They EXIST!!! I'm telling you from my personal experience of those states. I somehow feel you haven't been there and I wish you're there, becoz I feel you've that in you to be rt there and trust me you'll see an Entirely different world there and it is real, what appears fantasy becomes real. There is no place for any negative emotions there...abuse resentment compromise and all those which you generally see in most day to day relationships. Duniya bahut Haseen hothi hai Udhar(The same world appears very beautiful in those states). I wish for you that someday you go into those states for yourself.
Love..Sachin
Hi Kavita,
No I don't think that dressing a certain way is always an invitation, just that it is naturally interpreted that way. North mentioned that respect should be the norm. I agree it should be this way. The reality is that it is not and may never be. Human beings are sexual beings and have no control over attraction...however, the DO have control over what they do with the attraction. The reason one man will react with a lude, stupid comment to a woman and others won't is simply this: those that don't make comments have good boundries and are emotionally mature. Also, we all have different things that we find attractive. Although a bikini clad 20 year old might catch my attention, the fact that she is my daughters age will automatically put her into the "child" catagory and then the attraction shifts to neutrality or dad mode: "Put something on dammit!".
I think your thoughts on kids modeling themselves after Brittany Spears or whomever is a good one. This isn't a recent thing though. Young people are always looking for role models and the first thing they notice about someone is their physical appearance. This kind of modeling is healthy for a period of time as it helps you discover your voice and your essential self. Most of us pass out of this mode.
Peace,
Scott.
Scott-I agree! We humans are sexual beings. What cages us, is religious law, and societal expectation.
But, why is it, some are willing to stay in the boundaries of that cage, and other's not?
choice? impulse? maturity?
Can we attribute how one is raised, to this equation?
RE: A son see's his Mom being treated with lesser respect than men by his Dad-does this itself, not integrate a man's perception on how he'll treat women in the future?
this mal-treatment because of female-gender is so common! It can be subtle signs that the father shows against the mother too-it's not always black and white cases of wife-abuse that a child needs to witness.
Boys start to become programmed about attitudes from watching their Dad's and other male influences in their lives. If the woman of the house is treated like a house-slave-what is this teaching a son and daughter?
North
Sadly, men learn how to treat women, by watching how other men treat their women. OR, if there is no father in the home-then he learns from the mother-and how she lets people treat her.
So, if a boy has negative influences on the treatment of women-voila-the abusive circle continues.
So, to severe the abusive nature towards women-we must begin at home...and always remembering that children are watching, and learning from us!
North
Dulcie,
I expected that kind of response.
The world is divided in two. The West is post-feminist, and the non-West is barely beginning the battle begun in 1848 in Seneca Falls, N.Y. And I believe for women outside of the West, the battle will be much more brutal to gain the rights and respect that Western women now enjoy. The non-West can still frame their political argument based on the horrible circumstances that women find themselves in.
I used to define women as victims in the classic sense. All of Canadian society did. The political power of the women's movement grew to become a frightening thing 15 years ago. Women could do no wrong. Men could do no right. The poltical correct era.
Then, one woman, with one single act, changed all that. Karla Homolka was implicated in murdering three teenage girls, one was her sister. At first she pleaded that she was a victim of abuse by her husband. Most men bought that argument. I did. We were trained to. But I noticed women did not. I didn't understand.
It seemed that there was a lot more complexity to women than what the political atmosphere wanted to admit. Why didn't women band together automatically to defend this woman, who by definition should have been as much a victim of her husband as the three girls? Suddenly women stopped being victims in Canadian society and became humans, with good and bad. Gender issues have not been publicly heard from since, oddly enough.
The politics didn't vanish. It just went to sleep. No one wanted to talk about it anymore. When I brought up the complexities of women with women, however, I noticed the same circling of the wagons from the Betty Friedan era. Men are not allowed to talk to women about the reality of women. It is still politically incorrect. Men are still the enemy.
The same thing happened again from my post. Of course if a man is beating you, it has to be stopped at all costs! But women are not prepared to discuss openly anything to do with themselves with men beyond men-being-monsters.
If you want the general societal abuse to stop, then you must control the political and social agenda. But if you want there to be genuine communication between the sexes, then you can't be afraid to talk about yourselves truthfully with the 'enemy.' We are both human, with all the same foibles. Why are women afraid to talk about the truth of themselves, both good and bad? Its open season on men! And we have to take it. Are women victims of their own stereotype as victims?
I guess my post brought out too many complexities, and brought out the predictable reflexes that all women have politically when it comes to men. I don't think women are ready to face their hypocrisies. So, perhaps they really aren't equal to men in their own minds, but still victims. I merely presented a new side of the equation of abuse that never gets discussed. The bad-man side everyone knows by rote.
I guess we men will just have to discuss it amongst ourselves. Hmmm, that is an unlikely outcome... perpetuating the 'old boys club.' Women still have to find their own power within themselves before they can help restore the feminine balance in this overly-masculine world. That comes with the courage to admitting the truth to your adversary and gaining strength from the struggle. Men might be able to learn something about themselves from that...
SunWarrior-I suppose women didn't buy much into the Holmoka case; as too many women would have fled..too many women, could not, and would not have sexually abused their own sister. Karla has too many opportunities, including wealth to escape with; yet, she "chose" to stay and play the game... this is where women don't identify with women of Karla's "makeup."
Further-when a woman stays stop; she in no way signifies a weilding of self-power; other than an anticipated mutual-respect.
To call this, a female-denial or man-bashing or anything other than what it is.. is absurd?
I know this from a little experience, when I Founded and were President of a Lone Parent Support Group!
We had a mariad of members. Male and female. Both sides, would character-bash the other. Most of the issues were regarding infidelity and child support. It did not become the group I had envisioned; such as, singles dances, lone-parent barbeques for the families.. etc... an outreach for moral support and I did a lot of work getting government material, including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms(gift from Hedy Fry herself!)
North
North -
You really answered your own question quite adroitly :) (unless of course it was rhetorical). Kids model behaviors based on their archetypal male and female, which is normally their parents. To that I would say to men: If you want your daughters to find good men, lead good lives and develop healthy relationships then you need to love their mothers, embrace your feminine sides and demonstrate to your children that being a man means gentleness and tolerance as well as strength. To women I would say: Embrace your masculine side; show your boys and girls that real women are not doormats. That they deserve respect and love and appreciation. Show them that being a strong woman means nurturing but it also means being able to stand up for yourself.
Peace,
Scott.
Sun Warrior -
Good post...There is truth in that.
Peace,
Scott.
Bravo Scott!! This is how our children should be raised indeed!!
North
As long as we live in a patriarchal world, as long as religions advocate men as head of the household, I'm afraid we're never going to see an end to men taking liberties with women, and women feeling that they have to accept it on some level. It's all too deeply rooted.
Sun Warrior,
I stand by all my comments and additionally, I have no problem dialoguing with men. I do not subscribe to this black and white idea that all women are perfect, all men are evil that you seem to think is the backbone of the feminist movement.
I had adressed your notion that if a woman is being abused it is because she failed to "force" her husband to see the error of his ways. I disagreed with your statement. It is a, perhaps, soothing thought to think that women can "rehabilitate" their abusive spouses but it is an idea built on fantasy--the bad man will turn into a prince with enough feminine love, wisdom and understanding. That is my only point.
I am not familiar at all with the news story from Canada you are talking about. But fail to see how it pertains in any way to my saying that women should not be blamed for being abused and that women should not be expected to be able to or responsible for rehabilitating their abusive partners. I will say no more about this topic of abusive relationships, because I do not consider this to be a dialogue, rather a bunch of men oversimplifying the feminist movement and complaining that they are victims of "male-bashing".
I return to intent to this second lot of thought provoking posts.Before I comment on the posts, let me say (if all the people who have been reading my blogs don’t know this by now) the men in my life who have meant anything to me or been role models have all been fabulous people. It begins with my dad and moves to my brothers and then to my male friends. I was also lucky enough that the man who was my first love remains to this day one of the best men I know and one of my favorite people and friends(Sachin I think that answers your question. Thank you also for your good wishes. I can say I’m in a very happy place right now with all areas of my life growing in a positive direction).
So please keep the above in mind when you read what I have to say below.
I think it still remains a man’s world whether we admit it or not. But let me also say I am yet to meet a man who I can say is totally evil-but I have met a couple of women who were so, thought not directly to me. I have also seen women bring down other women, being manipulative and devious more than men.Again no one can change an abusive man or a manipulative woman..the changes have to come from within.
Leaving any kind of feminist movements aside for a minute, let me look at a couple of things that caught my eye in sun warrior's posts..It is not black and white-True.
But, on another point, Sun Warrior you mention, “Men are not allowed to talk to women about the reality of women. It is still politically incorrect. Men are still the enemy.” I’ve actually seen the opposite in large numbers. I think women invite dialogue and discussion far more openly than men do, both among themselves and with men. I see men hesitating to discuss things, clamming up if they feel their ego is being threatened or becoming belligerent at times when confronted with something that they can’t rebut.
Many of my female friends, all top achievers in the corporate world, said to me that even today, in the west, since you mentioned the disparity between women in the west and women not from the west, a woman has to prove herself repeatedly, that most men don’t like having a woman as their boss or taking orders from them, and I’m sure that spills into the home front as well. These women were talking from personal experience and range from 28 to late 50s age group.
I also don’t think its just women who give confusing signals. I see men do the same thing-and that is why books like “He's Just Not That Into You: The No-Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys” become best sellers.
I don’t want to make a sweeping generalization but let’s say among the thousands of men and women I have met from the west and the non west, I see more women making compromises, sacrifices and giving much more generously of themselves than men. I do however totally agree with your statement “Women still have to find their own power within themselves before they can help restore the feminine balance in this overly-masculine world.”
However when you say, “That comes with the courage to admitting the truth to your adversary and gaining strength from the struggle. Men might be able to learn something about themselves from that...” then I wonder. I personally believe that to think of men as adversaries or women as adversaries and not partners is where the entire malfunctioning takes place in the first place.
One uncle I know recently said to me..we should have in our curriculum a mandatory “understanding the opposite sex 101” class in high school..its been 29 years of a happy marriage but I still cant figure out your aunt. And when she looks at me THAT way I still quake in my shoes and say-what does that look mean? What did I do NOW?” He said that jokingly but I think he nailed it. I wish we had more discussions, and indeed more than one class 101 to understand the opposite sex better and ways by which we could grow together and nurture each other. Sun Warrior and Dulcie I think your posts, have made all of us think, as have those of others-no matter how we respond, the fact that we think and debate is the most important thing.
A happy, positive, mutually nurturing environment is very essential for both men and women to fulfill their real potential. Many years of oppression in many cultures for many years means women trying to even come to terms with understanding their own power and potential is a work in progress, and it will take time, but each baby step is a step in the right direction.
Kate thank you for the fans..it was not the ac but the main drain next to it that got clogged..its fixed and the fans and the ac are at full gear trying to dry out the carpet. North and Scott, good posts as always.
I’m writing this on the run, and will be away much of the day..out of town guests and interviews plus some dinners to go to over the weekend..happy memorial weekend every one and may all you men and women make some special memories together this weekend..
Lots of love
Sun Warrior and Dulcie -
I would say a fair way to see this is rather than using the term "blame" as it applies to either sex. I would use the word "responsiblity". Men are responsible for their abusive behavior. It is up to them to change it and not for a woman to "make" them change, which is virtually impossible.
But women are also responsible for their responses to abuse. If they are not responsible (having the ability to respond) and must wait for men to collectively change or rather abusive men to suddenly become "non-abusive" they will be waiting a long time. These things are not done on the conscious level. Most women that put up with abusive relationships have been conditioned to believe that love = pain. Most men that abuse have been conditioned to believe that love = control. BOth are wrong and both are responsible for their misperceptions.
Peace,
Scott.
Thanks, guys.
North, women know the 'type' of woman Karla is. It is part of the whole subculture between women that surprised me in my naive youth (a few years ago?). I think the most shocking thing, after the vicious bullying of my daughter by girls at school, was when a female friend burst out in mocking laughter at me when she told me I knew nothing about women. It was humbling, but she was right. I thought they were innocent victims that needed my protection. No wonder my mother pushed me away. Despite how my father treated her, the last thing she wanted was pity.
Like people of other colors and cultures, 'poor' people, the 'handicapped,' etc., we need to treat everyone as mature adults, just like we are, gender neutral. The truth of each individual is found in their hearts. Then the political crutches evaporate. I may sound harsh, but I know women are up to it... ;-)
SunWarrior-God Bless you, your youth; it is a pity really, you have not had the gift of good role model-parenting for yourself. I didnt either. Fatherless.
Regardless of the missing fragment of normalcy(only a perception)It molded me to be a strong woman in every regard, except physically. Top that with being a leonine feline, and I was "destined" to either rule, or follow. Following is not my forte..though I'm no great leader either.
I like the middle. Most people exist in the middle of the mainframe, right?
Just the fact you end your wonderful post with "women are up to the challenge" is in fact, a male-challenge! lol
And you men think we aren't understandable?
God Bless ya's though-b/c many, are absolutely everything a man should be-women too of course!
The only challenge I see really SunWarrior is the test of time, monotony and dedication.
Well, I"m off on a long hiatus... maybe back in the fall?
North
Kavita..Glad to know that. You're one of those Rare women who openly acknowledge the Dark side of women. I do that about men. I guess, I see a reflection of myself in you when you write that way and therefore resonate so much to your posts.
I was really in a humoros mood, while I was reading your last post about men and women. Excellent points on the serious note Kavita, but it's fun eh? pulling each others leg when it comes to men and women. Well...I wish. Anyway...
Glad to know you're doing well in all areas of life:)) Keep it up!! Bye for now. Love..Sachin
Kavita,
Strangely my comments are not getting through the last few days. Think its my own problem, hope this one makes it.
Have been thinking of the last few media reports on rape cases and the fact is that not one of the victims, as far as I can gather, was dressed 'provocatively'. Think that just sums up my reaction to the charge, which is being made fairly regularly and interestingly generally by males, about women asking for trouble by the way they dress.
Have lots more to say but am not going to stretch this any more and hopefully see it posted.
"Again no one can change an abusive man or a manipulative woman..the changes have to come from within"
I was very happy to read this from you Kavita. YOU GOT IT!!! What has been talked in the thread, most of that happening all over the world, comes from the lower consciousness. The only way is for that consciousness to rise(the conscience and all the associated things) from the lower to higher. Education plays a great role of course, but also one could be uneducated and still have a higher consciousness and the other way also being true(Have you met a highly educated muslim who thinks Allah is the only God and Islam is the only true religion?).
So...do you see now what is the present state of world affairs(the men women relationship). If one decides not to change, not to evolve...then Absolutely nothing can be done. What is the biggest stumbling Block in this? The Ego! The defensive unhealthy Ego holding onto its past till the death, not willing to accept mistakes and change. Becoz if one decides to change, in other words it means the Ego then was wrong. People prefer the Ego to be Propped up(right or wrong)to progress. What kind of world will you see then? What kind of relationships will you see then?
Exactly what You talked in your thread. Exactly what is seen so widely all around the world.
Truly..Sachin
Kavita,
You hit the nail right on the head about women in the corporate world. Men really haven't changed all that much. It is women that have changed by entering into the hierarchical world that men have created. But in the cut-throat competition of the executive suite, the combatants will use whatever they need to get ahead.
Despite this, though, women do enjoy their jobs for the same reason men do: the power, status, money, and interesting work organizing complex structures, whether corporations or research. The motives may be equal, just the attitudes are not.
Let me posit something. I believe women have discovered something about patriarchy, whether they know it or not. Underneath the gender issues, there is a mechanism that is gender neutral. It is not about men, but about civilization. We are a mind culture, as opposed to a heart-centered one. We value knowledge over wisdom, because it is malleable, whereas wisdom is just the truth. The basis of our society is numbers, both in the logic of a scientific equation to explain phenomena, or money, which drives business. There is also conceptual thinking, breaking reality down into variable components. We can use concepts like equations to control our perception of reality. Business, academics, psychology, the snippets of advice on talk shows... everything is reduced to a singular concept that we have to incorporate into our bigger conceptual picture.
Women, upon entering a man's world, is now more affected by this kind of thinking than their opposite gender. Not only must she think like this at work, but then she must prioritize her home life to squeeze all the responsibilities and chores into the tiny time off from work.
Logic is gender neutral. We are constantly making decisions, manipulating our lives to make it all fit. I think this has a much greater affect on women than even the gender bias she feels trying to survive in the work world. Upon entering the patriarchal world of men, she has found that she has had to adopt mind culture whole. There are benefits in prosperity and freedom. But there are also drawbacks. She can now see how modern men are, and why it is difficult to find a wise man. They are trained to be knowledgable, not wise.
It is not a gender issue, as such. It is a structural problem in approaching life that women are now part of. We are both in the same bag now. Women and men both don't like female bosses. But they don't like male bosses either. Is there something fundamentally wrong with a culture based on these premises?
Thanks Sun warrior,
your comment"Despite this, though, women do enjoy their jobs for the same reason men do: the power, status, money, and interesting work organizing complex structures, whether corporations or research." triggered off another thought about the price women seem to be paying for enjoying those jobs.
personally I think there was some sense in division of labor..I see very exhausted women juggling work and home, and frustrated men wondering why their wives arent like their mothers who stayed home and took care of things. My dad has always been very supportive of mom in anything she wanted to do..as a result she went back to school(she married very young and was a mom twice over by 22) and got two masters degrees, she did many adhoc courses but refused to work-which was fine with him..once we grew up and were in college she did what she loved best-teach young kids. Today after my dad retired, she runs a school in India with two other friends and dad helps with the administrative work..
I dont remember anything other than my home beinglike a serene sanctuary where dad always came home to a well rested wife-he insisted she get help and we had people assisting her with household chores and baby sitting. She was always nicely dressed, and focused totally on dad when he got home..today I see tired moms juggling work, their kids and their domestic chores, plus running from pillar to post with after school activities. At times I wonder is this a very heavy price to pay for women emancipation. But it again boils down to the relationship between men and women-how respectful is the husband, how appreciative is he of his wife's decision to be a home maker. Its the toughest job in the world..but for a woman to be financially independent has become equated with being a power..
People wonder why the divorce rates are up, why do woman choose to marry late, or not marry at all these days..its because this new found financial independence means they dont have to put up with abuse or oppression-it also means exploring new territories of fulfilment, and achievement. I do have to say I havent met a single woman who doesnt want to be in a fulfilling relationship. Many women are single not by choice but because of the way things happen-they travel a lot and have no time for long term relationships, or other stuff-if I was to get a penny each time I heard a woman say-my biological clock is ticking away, I'd be a millionaire by now. I also find people having pretty unrealistic expectations of what they want in a relationship as well.
I wish there was a way people worked the way my mom and dad worked.
Kids do get neglected when women juggle careers and work.
Your other points are well taken and I would love to hear people respond to your comment-t is not a gender issue, as such. It is a structural problem in approaching life that women are now part of. We are both in the same bag now. Women and men both don't like female bosses. But they don't like male bosses either. Is there something fundamentally wrong with a culture based on these premises?
I wonder how many of those female and male bosses bring fatigue and stress and being pulled in twoo hundred directions to work with them. Unless your home base is strong and positive it will always spill into the work place.
Sachin thank you for your thoughtful comments.You are right about ego being the greatest probelm that pulls everything and every one down.
Dara, I have noticed it takes time for the posts to load-maybe you are hitting the send button and not waiting long enough. Do write your thoughts-they are always well written.
North where are you off to, till fall? sorry its been hectic and havent been able to read other posts.
Where ver you are I wish you happiness, positive energy and good times
You've Pulled me in Kavita....You got this power over me. While reading your post, felt like..are those my thoughts or hers. Seriously.
I remember at your site, there was a respectable man who said "She writes from the heart,genuine and has that Kavita stamp on it" Spot on! Your posts have that stamp. I think you got it thru' your genes and of course the wonderful upbringing you had. How I wish I was your brother or friend growing up in that atmosphere.
Coming to the points. Wonderful Dissection!! Not at all Ego based or Pride based. Exactly what I've been telling you since day1, and becoz I saw that in you, naturally I get drawn to you and get compelled to tell you. Yes Kavita..the Price!!! Lot of people in that rat race don't have a clue to the Price they are paying. By the time they realize it is too late. How beautifully you talked about it saying you would be a millionaire. I've lived my life there in the west....have been in those fast lanes of life. What do you get at the end of the day? Money...which buys you material. Fulfillment?? Inner Peace&Joy?
Each human being is differently built..in the sense their outlooks their ambitions in life what ticks them. My whole point is...if you're clear the corporate world gives you a kick and offers you fulfillment. Go for it. But if at all you're into love family life and cherishing simple joys of life, then that isn't...and becoz of peer pressure lot of Women get into that lane, only to realize later in life "What have I done?". I think this is the reason why it came so naturally to me to write to you..hey don't lose on that beautiful facet of life while you keep running in your work:)) You always say "I've to run...I'm on the run":)) I'm sure you understand my sentiment here.
I myself have been a runner like you in the fast lanes...so much into cerebral matters, that I was not even aware what it meant to live from the heart, what it meant to just share your emotions of joy and sorrow which transpired in the day. But as I aged, when the lack of love made me feel empty inside...I realized something somewhere was going wrong. That was the time when I fell in Love with a beautiful woman, and the whole world changed for me. An American but Very heart dominated. What I'm today, a lot of credit goes to her and of course the master Dear Deepak.
And the point you made...it's not about competition in the gender, but a structural problem for women as to how to fit in and still make the most out of life. The Fulfillment Part! One has to be clear with that and should never lose focus from that, just becoz others are following a different path than yours.
Well Kavita...I enjoyed reading all your posts in this thread, hope you did mine too. I'll be glad if this rings the bell even in one person(especially a hearty woman)inside and ponder over it, only for the benefit of that person at some point in the journey of life.
Love..Sachin
Wow, Kavita, talk about growing up surrounded by wisdom.
Welcome to my laboratory. Determined not to treat women the way my dad treated my mother, I became that model husband. After an exhausting day at work, I would arrive home and carry the babies til one in the morning, do the laundry, make the meals, vacumm, you name it. Should have been paradise for my wife. Yet she resented the 15 minutes I needed as soon as I got home to de-compress. How dare I? She was at home with the kids all day. Somehow I was in paradise at work. Of course the marriage fell apart.
My female friends afterwards couldn't believe I came fully trained in the domestic chores dept., as they sat down to my candle lit dinners made from scratch for them.
With women fully integrated into our mind culture, economically independent, educated, free, marriage is now just a contract of emotions to provide happiness. We may think that it is more. But the statistics prove that the freedom of choice goes to divorce half the time. Time to re-construct one's happiness. Women and men vote with their feet when they realize what they married.
The price you pay... the transaction of life... based on our 'values.' Its how we think now, our expectations, and how we get them using critical thinking. The equation of aligning components in our lives for the best outcome. The stress and fatigue of making our reality conform to our minds' wishes. It is ironic.
I am a 'boss.' I had to set the record straight for those I supervise the other day. They had lost sight of where they were. They had so many expectations and resentments toward the company. They didn't have a clue when I asked them.
I told them they were in a business. A business is merely numbers. Hold up a number 'five,' and what emotions do you feel? Nothing. Yet that is all a business is. Numbers. Produce the quarterly profit. That way, every employee gets their numbers, money, to feed their kids and pay the mortgage.
What is the employee's relationship with a business? It is merely a transaction for services rendered. If you produce this number for the company, the company will pay you numbers to survive. We, the company, are merely buying your services, just like between you and a contractor for your house. Provide the service and receive payment.
They are free individuals. There is no domination or authority on my part. They either provide the service or they don't. There is nothing more to it. A contract between two equal parties. We don't care about one's life experiences that they bring to the job, from childhood, or other experiences. We just want you to produce numbers to produce our numbers.
Sounds inhuman. But that is what our lives, and our survival is built on. No numbers, no food. A simple contract for numbers between free individuals.
How does this kind of thinking invades our lives? Calculating the components of our lives to provide the service we desire, happiness. Show me the money. Marriage now falls under this kind of thinking. 'Values,' a mathematical term, equating the transactions we make for our bottom line. It can be numbers or concepts. We arrange them as variables the same way in our equation. We are rational, civilized humans, who no longer respect domination, but the freedom to transact with our reality.
This is what is killing women's hearts. You haven't had 5000 years of it like men have to get used to it. Women remember the time before the mind.
Hi Kavita, by interacting with the commenters, in a nonjudgemental, friendly manner, you make the lively subject you have introduced, so much more interesting.
Peggy Orenstein's research concluded that even preteen children equate maleness with opportunity and femininity with constraint. Even the girls who enjoyed every conceivable advantage, saw their gender as a liability. The girls did not think it was advantageous to be girls, and said all kinds of bad things happen to you if you are a girl, such as period and getting pregnant.
Girls self esteem is lost on the way to puberty, the low self esteem slows their progress. Today's girls have low self image, self doubt, self sensorship of their creative and intellectual potential, scathingly critical attitude toward their body.
The hidden agenda for girls in schools is trying to be inconspicuous, trying not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, trying not to dress a certain way, to be silent, careful, not active or assertive in life. Independent girls curse their fate at being born a female and try to conquer their nature to become agreeable.
I am not surprised we see anorexia nervosa, bulemia in teenagers. Can we blame these sensitive beings if they do not want to report rape?? What happens when it is reported?? They are sent for a gyn exam, many tests are done, many people ask them questions, every one tries to see if it was the victim's fault, they have to defend themselves, and the poor loved ones go through the intense trauma with the victim. No wonder only 25% of the rapes are reported. Still there are 310,000 rapes reported per year. Women are powerless in patriarchal societies.
God bless you Kavita.
Dear Sun Warrior,
I know I would enjoy a candlelit dinner, and a meal prepared with care, and loving hands.
My experience has been different from yours, and yet, I have had to dismantle most everything I was told about relationships, and how I acted within relationships - to be able to really Love.
~ Kate
Dara -
I don't think anyone here defended rapists by claiming the women deserved it because of how they were dressed. Rape is a crime of violence and power not sex. The original post here was about women being harassed hot raped necessarily.
Peace,
Scott.
Hi Scott,
Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly. I agree the main theme is about sexual harasssment. My observation came about because in the recent past, too often has the media here in dealing with cases of rape, invariably quoted some personality, generally a well known male, who has made the statement that women ask for trouble because of the way they dress. Invariably my reaction to such crassness is one of indignation. I think my comments were conditioned by that.
I agree, now that you have pointed it out, that perhaps I strayed from the issue here and injected my opinion on a related topic here.
Thanks everyone.
Sun Warrior, you seem to be a very special man, because you seem to have gone where not many men have gone before(to grab that line from star trek) and not many venture even to this day-being a great home maker.
I see very high cases of post partum depression in this country.In India we have a tradition where a new mother is not allowed to do anything for 40 days after delivery. Her mother in law or mother and extended family helps out. A few years ago, I heard the sounds of sirens shattering the peace of a dark night..At 4 a.m., on a cold Michigan winter night, one of my neighbors had drowned her new born son in the pond outside our apartment complex. She was Japanese. The news made headlines all over the state as the poor woman was put in jail even after being diagnosed with a severe case of post partum depression-living in a foreign country, no one to talk to due to a language barrier, and a husband who worked late night shifts, and a prematurely born son who cried non stop-it was only a matter of time when her equilibrium snapped.
The west is a very lonely place for people to live in-the work load and fatigue both emotional and physical breaks the back of many a relationship. I've seen some husbands snap at their wives-"what were you doing all day that you complain you are tired. I put in a whole day's work at the office."
And on the flip side, I have seen many a friend
think of her husband as domestic help that shows up only at 7 p.m. and the poor husband has had the crying kid shoved in his tired hands as the harried mother runs off to get some relief.
Its also not financially possible for people here unless they are very wealthy, to hire help,unlike back home where most middle class can get some part time help.
I think somehwere in all the din of making ends meet, handling this sudden shift in your routine when kids come and shoving resentments under the carpet as you run through life and chores like a zombie, marriages have taken a tumble.
You are also right about everything in life becoming a business transaction. People are very practical nowadays..all I can say is some of the best relationships I've seen have been when people have gotten in touch with their emotions and thought with their heart and not their head both at home and the work place.
Geeta, you brough up a very valid point-there were some very key observations that were made in an article I read some time back-one was that girls outshine boys in math and science till middle school and then veer away from the subjects in High school because they are afraid to be seen as nerds and that no boy will go out with them. The second key comment was that girls do very well in girls only schools because the obsession with looks, etc becomes minimal and there are no distractions.
This is another sad side of the society here-the obsession with looks..an ABC television expose and many others done subsequently on different channels, even one where a couple of models like Tyra Banks aided by a make over went out as 300 pound women were quite revealing..prettier women got front office jobs, better looking men landed jobs even when some of their counterparts had better credentials..and Tyra Banks said it was horrible to see how people humiliated her or made nasty comments or just veered away from her, when she was in disguise.
Sachin, your post was deeply touching. I'm glad you found what truly matters so early on in life. All the best to you. It has indeed been very hectic for me since the past 2 months, but hopefully things will calm down.
Thanks Dara, Kate and Scott.
Kavita...Your last post as usual was terrific. I think it's the Frequency basically which is in resonance that's why I like it so much.
I'll just share this with you, becoz you can understand it so well and be appreciative of it. There's has always been a longing to find and rest in deep peace, a longing to know the truth behind all, a longing which made me question who am I? what am I? What for am I? The answers to those are beautiful and becoz you're a beautiful woman from inside you'll understand it and am sure all those like you will too...but swear on God! In all sincerity at the deepest level that's who I'm...and for most if they delve at the deeper levels, they would find the same.
I'm OF the woman BY the woman FOR the woman. My Existence has come OF the woman. Isn't it? What am I driven by in life? Most are by money and other things, a lot are like me too. I'm driven BY her. And Ultimately all this for whom I question, the answer from Inside comes FOR her. Source,Path,Destination for me is SHE!!!
I'll be off again Kavita but will try to be in touch with you and Deepakji. Needless for me to write best wishes for you. My earlier post said it all. Didn't it? God bless you Kavita!!
Love..Sachin
I agree with what you posted Geeta. Too often a girl's self-esteem is lost on the way to puberty. I also think it is unfair the way society places so much emphasis on a female's appearance. I like Kate's idea that we should have a body appreciation day! One only has to go to any department store to see the aisles of cosmetics (unhealthy chemicals) meant for women. A male's natural state is accepted but a woman's is not.
Sun Warrior, regarding the working world outside the home, I don't think we can generalize what people seek. Personally, power (when used over other people), status, money (if used as a measurement of power and status) means nothing to me. I just want to love what I do.
Also, being a full-time homemaker can be very isolating - intellectually and emotionally. It is very easy to lose your sense of self. This is especially the case if one doesn't have the resources to get out on a regular basis, hire a babysitter, take a class, or interact with people other than her children and husband. Problems may arise over distribution of chores but it really goes much deeper. Unfortunately, if these things are not realized and communicated and divorce occurs, it is the woman who is thrust into poverty along with her children. All those years her husband advanced his career, but her career as homemaker is suddenly not worth anything.
Kate,
I know what you mean. I built my life around 'love' and it was a disaster. Quite ironic. What I didn't realize is how it undermined my own integrity.
I became quite contented. When The Great Spirit told me that my wife was 'the one,' I was incredulous. I figured I needed a couple of years more of 'friends with benefits' before I got through that phase. But I listened, and the first few years were tough. I don't know how my wife had the stamina for me. But she did, and when the lightbulbs went off in me, I realized a whole bunch.
The Great Spirit told 'she' is wisdom. It took a while to learn the language. When we listen to the wisdom around us, we can start to see the wisdom in ourselves.
Kristie, thank you. I believe there are both good men and good women, but there are more good women than men. Lots of women come to Earth to learn tolerance. In these patriarchal societies women are victims in a lot of different ways. Some men have their plates full of sorrow too.God bless.
Sto Lat! - May you live a hundred years.
Sto Lat
Sto lat, sto lat, niech zyje zyje nam.
Sto lat, sto lat, niech zyje zyje nam.
Jeszcze raz, jeszcze raz, niech zyje, zyje nam.
Niech zyje nam!
Sto Lat (English version)
Good luck, good cheer, may you live a hundred years.
Good luck, good cheer, may you live a hundred years.
Good luck, good cheer, may you live a hundred years.
One hundred years!
http://www.polishamericancenter.org/StoLat.htm
Na Zdrowie, Kavita,
Have a great one,
With,
Love, Passion!
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Recent Comments
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marek dariusz podsiadlo commented on Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
Sto Lat! - May you live a hundred years.
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geeta jayaram commented on Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
Kristie, thank you. I believe there are both go
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Sun Warrior commented on Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
Kate,
I know what you mean. I built my
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Kristie commented on Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
I agree with what you posted Geeta. Too often a
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SM commented on Should Women be Blamed For Sexual Harassment and How women are treated in general?
Kavita...Your last post as usual was terrific.
Hey Kavita,
sweetheart..with this one.., but I sure love you.. using your freedom of speech!
ok,
This is gonna be a rollercoater ride,
'but by and large the number of men sexually, physically or emotionally harassing women surpasses the number of women doing the same thing,
I have an evil stepmother, wich proves the..;)
and I would like to argue, the differ, with a scientic note to the reseach, stating that men just are ashemed, to even consider reporting, physical, emotional or otherwise, abuse, blackmail and manipulation,
Kavita,
take cover, girl, do not take it personally,
and I be back for some moral support later,
I gotta a hot date this evening, but before that,
I'm gonna do some brainchemistry magic, or state
management..;) in the gym,
No kiddin'!
With, and for,
Love, Passion!