Excellent Rahul.

BTW, I'm so not looking forward to watching your movie with Malika Sharawat, but hey, you're not expecting us to watch it either right? Glad you're getting yourself into the commercial side of the business, I think you deserve that recognition and security that comes with it.

i don't think we should blame anyone.
we are all innocent.
we are all culpable.

who should we forgive?

Good article Rahul. I know a few right wing nutcases here in this forum will argue like the right wing journalist you are talking about. But I think the world will soon become more civilized. Like any big transformation, the losers in the transformation process will whine a lot before they vanish in the history. What we are seeing in the form of Hindu terrorists, Muslim terrorists, Christian evangelicals, etc. are just the last bits of the primitive society which we are going to leave behind in this transformation.

Just a few observations:

1. I think if the "rabid right-wingers" (great way to construct a Halo for yourself by boxing the "other" guy) have a "simplified" version of reality.. so do the rabid peaceniks like you. If Israel is not the right model, Gandhi also isnt the right model.. ask the folks who lost everything in partition - but heck they were "collateral damage" that was of the acceptable kind.. so who cares. The point is simple... just because you take a Moral High Road doesnt make you r view a practically useful one for the folks who are dead or will certainly die.

2. A doctor - Ansari - was caught.. he was a normal guy next door. The question that I have top-most in my mind is a simple one, that I challenge you or the others to answer: How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"?? This is not a rhetorical question.. it is at the very BASE of the strife that the world is in today!! And the way out is obviously not to bomb every living Muslim out of the world.

If Jehad - as the moderate Muslims are wont to suggest - is indeed a personal introspection... then isnt it time that someone actually turned the face of "Introspective" Jehad TOWARDS Quran itself as well as its tenets that create the terrorists?

Sati is ostensibly not finished but it is not at the same levels as it was a century ago. Its decline and end is predicated on the introspection of a few leaders like Dayananda Saraswati and Ram Mohan Roy.

3. "What if the obvious communal card is played by cynical religious and political leaders?" Is it just a communal card? If you were analyzing this entire terrorism world as a Statistician - what would be your conclusion? No matter what method you apply - the fact that there is a SIGNIFICANT CORRELATION BETWEEN ISLAM and TERRORISM cannot escape a DISPASSIONATE mind!!!

I know this is enough to get me the "rabid right winger" label from you and some nuts here.. but that is what I call the argumentative style of the BRAINLESS.. for such a strategy requires no unpleasant or thorough think through. Just create the box for the other guy... .put him in it. .and just dust you Halo.. wear it. VOILA! The debate has been won.. without an answer.... until the next crowd is rammed into by another Ansari!!

... the box business meanwhile does a great!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"What we are seeing in the form of Hindu terrorists, Muslim terrorists, Christian evangelicals, etc. are just the last bits of the primitive society which we are going to leave behind in this transformation."

some people were obviously so busy doing their physics theorems that they never read History... they get up once in a while and keep talking about a utopia that - one, is not there; and second, noone has achieved....

... for those who take such nonsense seriously.. make a will and get some insurance!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Growing up is not a skill. Any Tom and Harry can do. It appears some dicks are still having struggle growing up. The transformation will take care of them.

Ravi,

Do you mean to say colonial Britishers were civilized. You are way too off my friend.

Now that is the Krish I remember!!!!!

"Transformation" for peace - temporary though it ever was - has never been brought about by arrogant, fascist minds but by humble spirits who looked at themselves first and never shrugged at asking and answering the tough questions!!

That is precisely the tragedy of our age - the Peaceniks have gained a lot of self-importance under the heavy weight of their self-constructed Halo...

..... and have become their own caricatures!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

Ravi:

Just read your poem on non-violence and liked it.

It is nauseating to see when people launch on their Moral Journeys in the safety of their offices or metropolises on the wings of ABSOLUTE NON-VIOLENCE without understanding it in proper context!!

Non-violence was never and can never be a Moral on its own. Whenever you are faced with a dilemma where on one side is a non-violent reaction and on the other side are the lives of many.. all you need to ask is a simple question:

- Does my "non-violent" behavior hurts the victim or the Violent! If the answer points to the FORMER then what you are indulging is INACTION and not Non-Violence!!

That is why I believe a pacifist like Guru Nanak thought nothing wrong with their Isht Dev - Ram.. the pacifist with arms!!

To borrow from my Business Intelligence verities (businessintelligence.typepad.com) :

Information + CONTEXT = Intelligence

To base your action on Information and not considering the context leads you to inherently take inappropriate actions!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com
BusinessMusings.com

No one ever wins a war. It only causes loss of all kinds.

"No one ever wins a war."

And non-violence... Against a war?

Nimita - taking action for self defense and hurting the other is not very different. Its semantics.

I think it wreaks of Moral Bankruptcy when YOUR Non-violence has to be paid with someone else's life!!

if you want "brownie points" in the larger Universe of Moral Heaven... then please BUY the passage through YOUR life....

... and stop forcing innocents into becoming your Sugar daddies!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Rahul as always intersting reading...

Desh,
How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"??
The truth is you cannot differentiate between the two...i've seen people's smile fade away when they ask me ...you are from india,you are a hindu?I tell them no i'm a muslim...Some people plainly ignore me after that and thats okay.

Andaleeb:

"The truth is you cannot differentiate between the two"

That.. precisely is the challenge of our age!!

I have a post on my blog (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2845) where I talk about the doc - Ansari - who was caught. The question I have in there is: How come when an "islamic maulvi" touches an ordinary man - he becomes a terrorist?

This is the sign of COMPLETE DEFEAT of all of us!! I am not sure how this differentiation can be done... but someone .. probably amongst the Muslims .... needs to find/devise that mechanism!!

I have a basic principle -

"Either I put a Cost to My Failure.. or the Failure will put a Cost on Me!"

The ability to put a cost to your failures - here, failure to create the framework where differentiation is natural - will be the key to the world peace!! So that someone like you would not be ignored and an innocent be killed!

I hope, Andaleeb, you can appreciate that the act of ASKING QUESTIONS is not necessarily an ANTI-MUSLIM act.. Faith and blind belief got no one nearer the truth! If Buddha had listened to his palace priest or Jesus followed on his Jewish faith.. they wouldnt have become what they did!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Why is there a need for YOU to differentiate THEM?

Fear.

The natural solution IS for you to mind your own business and let them mind their own. But that's not how humans react because they have their pride to save and fear to conquer.

The talks of ceasefire failed, well duh, unless each party agrees on minding their own business, there is no true ceasefire. But someone got to make money......so the cycle continues.

The talk of violence and non-violence tacticts is all bull, it is as same as believing in God and not believing in one, show me the freaking difference!. There is no goddamn God when your stomach is empty, and the God of excessively filled stomach is nothing but a fart.

Desh,
Rest assured i do appreciate your posts and do like to read them. Questions need to be raised and if possible discussed amicably.For once, i myself donot understand given my upbringing,and my childhood that how islam had become a breeding ground for terrorism...Terrorism baffles me and i am born as muslim and am a practising muslim.I am disgusted by the acts of terrorism etc and terrorists.
I can understand,how mind boggling it can be for someone who looks from outside.I am sure they must wonder why people glorify this religion, whose followers commit extremly violent acts on other human beings......

Andaleeb:

Thanks for understanding!

I think the questions you have as a Muslim are the sort of questions that most people - non-muslims - have as human beings.

I often wonder the scenes and the temper of discussions in Akbar's court before he came up with the framework of Din-i-Ilahi. I am sure the Maulvis of that time were no less vocal as today.. and I am sure the questions and counter-questions were as sharp. Why and how did that happen then?

I think there was one major reason - because Everything... EVERY belief and core thought was ON THE TABLE to be discussed and analyzed and debated.. dispassionately!

If we all can accomplish just such an environment.. .then the resultant debate will take care of the future peace.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

We should blame the weakness of humans, to overcome anger/hate; and the compound effect it has when pitted with religious beliefs; which then ultimately becomes a socializing agent for abuse/hate, poverty, genocide of race and girl infants, and the profitable mongering of war.

DID Condolezza Rice, deliver "anything" on her "surprise" visit, I ponder, wonder, and flounder for an answer..... other than professionally written press-conference speech's?

I feel, sending Rice; shows the USA is involved up to their eye-balls.... as per the usual war-norms of their past/present historical accounts!

Can anyone tell, I'm not impressed with the US?

Looks like they are going for a world-record of balancing multi-war-involvements con-currently?

It is easy to slip a knot down the rope of hope, when all most of us can do, is sit back and watch the world's leaders kill innocents.... and never knowing "truthfully" why!?

Dear folks,

Some interesting questions have been raised here. I believe in peace and non-violence, but in-action can't be an answer to violence. I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my loved ones, else I have failed the test of living.

How do we distinguish between a peace loving muslim and an islamic terrorist.

Every community, religion has its share of terrorists. What matters is not whether one can distinguish the "Good" and the "Bad", but how the community treats its "Bad". It has been my observation that in Islamic community, there is a reluctance on the part of the "Good" ones to chastise its "Bad". This also extends to the intellectual debates. There are only a handful of Salman Rushdies in a community of more than a Billion! That says something of the level of tolerance in the community for dissent. On other hand, just on this one blog, there is a Krish and there is a Rahul.

Perhaps there was a time when there was a lot of dissent and a lot of tolerance. That's why Islam rose to the heights it did during the first half of the second millennium. Dissent and tolerance are the hallmark of a great community and the resultant diversity enriches everybody. Islam stopped living somewhere along the way and we all see the results. Until the community realises its folly, the "Good" and the "Bad" will continue to pay the price.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Dear Rahul,

I reread your post after I posted #22. Your last paragraph is incomplete. Your dread of what is to come is justified. However, it also needs to be pointed out that the over reaction of Hindu zealots will stop once the Islamic community starts taking responsibility for its terrorists. Once they start identifying the terrorists and suspicious characters among themselves and let the law take its course. Once they stop their mosques from being used to spout hatred and violence. And most importantly, once they stop their madrassas from brainwashing their young and turn them into these killers.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Hi rahul
i admire the work you do on screen and in real life as well. We need more people like you

Ravi K, I'm in agreement with you. There seems to be a selective denial in Islamic communities (I won't say all because that would be gross generalization), but you're correct, they have found themselves in an odd situation of forced cleanup, which they must do or else their survival or better yet, an enlightnment of future generation is at stake.

well..this is for Krish and other ' vegetarian Indian’ folks.
Indians have history of losing to almost all colors of people except Black . What would be the reason behind timid response to bombay blastS. Is it vegetarian food or something else.
Indians should learn something from Israel.

Dear Rahul,

Wish you a very very happy birthday...May all your wishes and dream come true....

dear Rahul

great reporting: very moving, and psychologically very perceptive, regarding terrorists' motivations and strategic goals.

love, heather

Happy Birthday Rahul!

Here is an article in Indian Express:

"Terrorism: Battle within the Muslim community"

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=71579&headline=Terrorism:~Battle~within~the~Muslim~community

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Rahul:

Ok .. now that you have turned 45.. its time you did more mature roles, buddy!! ;-) Just kidding..

.. have fun on the wrong side of 40's!! ok.. kidding again

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hello Desh,

I fully agree with you.

All i can say for Rahul is

"Little knowledge is a dengerous thing, drink deep or taste not the perenial spring"

regards

What's wrong in the Israel's eye for eye policy?

For me things are pretty clear, I am an Indian even before being a human being, then I am a human being , then a hindu and so on so forth, so even if 1 Indian is killed my blood boils and I think we have to hit back no matter how and when, if it stops this ambush we should do it.

If we can't do that then lets even stop protesting and holding vigil, it's just another photo opportunity for the Page 3 people.

Many of whom don't forget have been dance every now or then in Dawood's party, the most wanted terrorist of India.
So its upon us to tell our elected representatives, if u think an Indian life has no value u are very wrong and get ready to face the consequences, lets show them the door, we don't need politicians or Page 3 making statements, we want to see the casualties coming down , we want to see that the terrorists are exterminated, we just want that done , how that has to be done , on our part we have to be vigilant and on their part the government has to talk tough, besides there are not bomb blasts every week in USA, so talking tough helps, we should remember even before being human , we are Indians, I don't forgive anyone who either kills or misguides any Indian , so kill if u have to , but stop this blood-shed.
I become restless when I see the lady(she has a 30 day old baby) who is speechless with shock after losing her spouse, or the helplessness of the 13-year old , who lost his father and whose mother is not ready to accept this fact and keeps on telling him all are liars , ur dad will be back.
We need to show our teeth , nails and bullets and missiles , etc. and I don't beleive in getting lost in the whacky jokes of a Pakistani performer, when their land is the hot-bed of anti-India activity, its time to react lest they will conitinue to kill and misguide our people.
Our plural society is threated by the mechanisations of Pakistan and they have to pay for this.

And if a rabid right wing politician can ensure that , I will vote for them, so should everyone else, and if they too fail, pick someone else, but they have to stop this and Uncle Sammy (US) is no one to dictate us what to do or what shouldn't be done.

If I am hurt and I need medication, I will have it come what may.

I've been thinking about this for the last week or so. Following articles on the internet and the UK Nationals (in relation to Israel's response to Hizbullah, by striking Lebanon).

There are three prongs to the approach to Terrorism in my view:-

1. Address the root cause of terrorism. How?; Cut off the oxygen supply. The biggest issue that has to be dealt with in todays world is the arms trade. A selling arms to B, B passing on arms to C. C being politcally supported by A etc etc. Israel has one of the biggest arms contract with India. Switzerland, is the most hypocritical, as it is actually the biggest arms dealer in the world, despite its foreign policy of neutrality. Kalashinikovs sold to terrorist groups after war torn situtaions in Eastern Europe. The issue is that, politically, Governments are publicly combating Terrorism and taking the high moral ground, and yet behind closed doors countries are sealing arms deal with the very groups that they are trying to conuter attack-of course these links are tenuous, but they are known.

2. Political Approach. The 'eye for the eye' approach has been morally accepted, by some in the 'War against Terror'. This is the biggest problem. If Bush advocates this, how can his actions or Isreal's action not been deemed as Terrorism itself. Attacking innocent civilians in the way that Extremists attack innocent civilians in Bombay/London etc.

3. Negotiation. Perhaps its time to bring the extremists to the table. The process is a long arduous one, but it eventually brought some form of agreement between the IRA and the UK Government.

In terms of dealing with the threat of terrorism on a daily basis, unfortunately what can a civilian do? Only that they are more alert to their surrounding environment and try and maintain some sort of calmness. If a suicide bomber want to blow up a marketplace, transport system, I dont think there is anything you can do about it-except put such stringent secuirty mechanisms in place, that youare checking everybody everywhere all the time. This is physically impossible in communter situations where you have millions of people passing through stations etc all the time.

Most people have been living with the threat of Terrorist attacks all their lives. You cannot create a bubble around yourself and never go out again. After the London bombings, communters were back on the tube and trains the next day. What's your option? You have to go to work, to go shopping for food, to go out! The basis on which Terroristic attacks work, is to cause as much chaos and public disruption as possible and of course to take lives. Isn't this what Isreal is currently doing in Lebanon?.

The problem with Terrorism today, is the strong belief that Terrorists have, that in taking their own lives, they are committing the ultimate sacrifice in the name of God/Freedom whatever is their doctrine.

In Kanika Sethi's post she mentioned her boss saying that effectively, the value of an Iraqi human life was not worth more than the value of an American life. This philosophy is cutting both ways in the 'War Against Terror', advocated by Bush. In todays world an eye for an eye seems to be the short cut to peace for some Governments..but is it? My fear is that one of these days a Terrorist group will get hold of a nulclear weapon and use it (or possibly a Government will use it)..perhaps its already the case, with the arms trade you don't know who has got what-but you hope to hell they're not going to play war with the Big Boys.

Rahul,

I have mixed feelings about your views. While I read with interest about your interviews on the local and admired your taking up the assignment I felt it finally went off at a tangent in coming to an answer as to who should we blame. The end result is that we are back to discussing a subject we are most comfortable with, attacking or defending Islam.

Reading your account of the plight of the daily commuter, isn't it pertinent that no one brought up the issue of Muslims and Islam? They were simply expressing their insecurities and unfortunately that is what needed to be addressed first of all. That is the problem of the ordianry Indian. We know, or think we do, who is responsible. What people want to know is what is being done and why are we seeing Mumbai becoming such an easy target. So who do you think is responsible and what needs to be done?

It is apparent that the idea of communal riots and the problems of the Muslim community were interjected into the discussion by those conducting the interview not by those who were expressing their plight. Perhaps there is a lesson in that.

I wish you had mentioned the name of the 'rabid right-wing journalist'. For one I would like to keep myself informed and also because I would like to form my own opinion about the individual.

In fact, having written this blog almost a fortnight later, I think the ordinary citizens of this city should have been commended for maintaining peace and trying to get back on their feet. However, I am now apprehensive of even this peace lasting, for the simple reason that I find the media and those who put forth their views through it, are at times almost mocking and baiting this calmness. There are enough hot heads and idiots who will rise and take up this bait. Who then will take responsibility for that calamity? No one. The baiters will put on their bleeding heart robes and start airing their views and raising questions on their programmes asking for people to send in their votes on silly non-sensical questions and the victims and the families of those who suffered this trauma will be consigned to the back burner.

To me the real problem seems to be of good intentioned people, bringing up the bogey of communal discord instead of trying to understand where our security and administration went wrong and learning lessons from it. The result of all this is that the people who suffer are those who shouldn't. People like Andaleeb, who are striving hard and facing embarrassment because of their co-religionists and searching for answers within themselves. They need to be helped and encouraged to look for answers within their religion, not be forced to become defensive because of our condescension and sympathy.

Andaleeb, all I can say is that I feel for you and your discomfiture, and the only solution I can suggest is that maybe it is using the teachings of Islam to counter the claims of the jehadists and those who so obviously distort its teachings to justify their crimes. Not a very comfortable or even practical suggestion perhaps, but then, like you too, everyone is groping for answers.

Rahul,

Just saw its your birthday. Many many happy returns. All I can say is that please listen to me - the one who knows! I'm the guy who took a small bet in January that the Sensex would cross 25,000 in July. ;)

But Dear Kamini...How will they become rich if they don't sell? World runs on buy and sell model, and how to become rich as fast as possible is the dream of many. What do you think Dear Deepak kept on talking for so long abt Military Industry complex. Bitter but True! Pathetic story of humans! For money, they are ready for killing and wars. That's the ground reality sadly.

Anyway..How are you doing? Just wanted to write to you, and not get into any discussion. I've always liked your posts.

Love..Sachin

I think anyone who participates in a discussion of virtues/vices of non-violence/violence ought to watch this video. A part of myself has died after I watched it. Don’t use the link if you are faint-hearted or even too squeamish.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/american_hostage_eugene_armstrong_beheading_video_killed_by_zarqawi_militant_group_Sep_21_2004.html

Desh
"How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"??"

I will tell you. It is the same way how you differentiate a vegetarian hindu who splits open the belly of a pregnant woman and burn the foetus in fire and a 'normal' Hindu, (probably like you)

One more thing Desh, Islam existed for 1400 years. So the statistician in you should refer the whole history to see the truth.

If you are not ideologically driven, you will realise then that every community had showed such abhorrent behaviour from time and again.

Tell me which society had not.

"So the statistician in you should refer the whole history to see the truth."

Naj: I was talking in modern context.. but dince you bring up history ....lets talkk about that too...From Chengiz Khan to Babar to Aurangzeb to Osama today... when I consider the entire body of evidence - I find an overwhelming correlation of Islam with Violence. if you could do the numbers - the number of human beings killed by people espousing Islam as the motivating ideology behind their actions is certainly the LARGEST!!

Similar extent and level of instances are hard to find in any other society.

It is great to talk in generalities but specifics speak for themselves.

After reading the history, I am convinced, that had it not been for the Sufis (and they are maligned so much by the Maulvis and Islamists these days - I have talked to enough to know how they are viewed) - the body of evidence of Violence oriented history would have been even more overwhelming! In a way, the Sufis really gave Islam a "Spiritual-Peace" backbone!

Also, it is the PET squeak of every moderate Muslim and a Secularist in India when you bring up some tough but direct questions on Islamic mess in the world to divert the issue to others! But that doesnt help and is not the answer!

I wonder where Sati practice would have been if Dayananda and Ram Mohan Roy instead of looking at the reality of inhumanness of Sati had countered the British by pointing to the Witch-burning and smacked their lips that they had "won" the debate!!

.... that is why I am asking again - BE HONEST.. and DISPASSIONATE!

The first step to bringing change is to accept that there is a NEED for change. That has been the bane of Islam. The basic ideology of "Prophet was perfect and last and so no amendments" - brings about a host of complications.

One, Saints like Guru Nanak becomes heretics and fountain-heads of non-believers and often game for blasphemy killings (look at Ahmediyas)

Second, there is no rethinking possible. Every society and group in this world and in history has peculiar issues... it is no longer possible to address all of them from the paradigm of a guy's view from a tribe that lived in a desert 1400 years back. Thats just plain nonsense.. sorry but thats the truth!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Chengiz Khan is not a muslim when he terrorized the whole world. Only after he destroyed the middleast and muslim lands did he convert to Islam and saved the muslim world from further destruction with his violent campaigns. Islam is a saving grace to the world to control his barbarian instincts.

Talking of history, the cruel acts of Christian Crusaders over a period of centuries (and which is still going on) over the Muslims is unparalleled. It was the crusader exchanges with the muslim world which brought much of civilization, wisdom, knowledge, science and medicine to the Europe which was in dark age.

What about the cutting of tongues and killing of witches and black magicians in rural India which continued much later after the British left India? Witch hunt was illegal in any part of British controlled territories. There were no witch trails in British territories after early part of 17th century much before British East India Company entered India. Sati was also illegal under British rule. Unfortunately, it is saddening to see reports about sati(widow burning) in media in modern day India.

One can be emotional, but history is history. To quote examples to conform ones beliefs is easy. “Honesty” comes from one’s personal beliefs. What’s important though is to not have bias, hatred or take sides or interpret evidence to conform one’s beliefs. One can quote thousand facts and have a Belief Overkill to prove his point. That is a distorted point of view.

Let us take some examples from the history of India.

First we have Ramayana. Rama's wife was kidnapped by a king of Lanka. Rama destroyed the whole country to save his wife. (only to abandon later). You can read chapters describing how the country was burned by Rama. Then Mahabharata, which was supposed to be a dharma yudha but in fact a pure adharma yudha, as it was fought for a land which was not legitimately theirs. Do you know how many were killed?

Then the princely state warring each other, upto 1947. Do you have a record of that? Have you counted the dead? In some places, there were suicide squads too.

You mention about Ahamadiyas. Do you know how many were killed for entering in temples in India in its long history? Do you know that even Rama has killed a shudra for practising Tapasya? Do you know that such killings happen nowadays too in states like Bihar?

(Lest misunderstood, this is not an attempt to justify the misdeeds of some of the muslims by pointing out that such things happened in other communities too. But since Islam was single handedly attacked by folks with vested-interests or by fellows who has little knowledge about it, I need to do this)

Your lack of knowledge about history shows up when you say that "Chengiskhan to Babr to ...". He was not a muslim when he waged those wars. In his later part of life, he converted to Islam and stopped his war games. You need to read (Iqra) more.

Do you know how many were killed in crusade wars? Do you know who ordered it?

Have you counted the deaths in the two world wars? Have you counted how many were killed by US so far in its few hundred years of history? Have you counted howmany were killed by Isreal so far in its exitence of few decades?

Your other sentence about Sufis also shows your utter lack of knowledge about Islam. I doubt whether any Sufi will attest to what you say. Also, I remember you wrote sometime ago that Sufis do not respect Prophet, though they mention about Islam superficially. Every Sufi, except some who are popular in west in these times, trace their sil-sila to the Prophet. Take the case of Ibn Arabi. One of the most controversial figures in Sufi. He is known as both Shaikh al-Akbar greatest of spiritual guides)and Shaikh al akfar (greatest of heretics). But whenever he refers to Prophet in his writings, he adress the Prophet as 'Our Master". I do not know whether you get his message.

The problem with you and many others is that since you - I presume - have a decent paying job and has some knowledge from here and there and a media to express it, get emboldened to say anything about anything. This is why you are writing sentences like "The basic ideology of "Prophet was perfect and last and so no amendments" - brings about a host of complications. " There were many interpretations about his deeds and sayings. And even in prayers, there are different, though slight variations.

(it is an hastily written post, so forgive any errors)

"Talking of history, the cruel acts of Christian Crusaders over a period of centuries (and which is still going on) over the Muslims is unparalleled"

Ok... so the Islamic Violence has another parallel - the Christian violence! Great! So is that supposed to be a consolation??

Talking of Chengiz Khan and the Muslim lands of mid-east - have you heard of the Parsis who existed before the land of Persia was turned into a Muslim heartland? And honestly... and very frankly asking the basic question - except from having a different belief and "Praying to Idols" which for some reason Prophet found "unacceptable" - why were those Tribes so damned and hunted for by Prophet and his men??

"What about the cutting of tongues and killing of witches and black magicians in rural India which continued much later after the British left India?"

You are comparing the one off incidents in rural India with Terrorism??? THAT was precisely what I was talking about! The closed and the UNREPENTENT and the unchanging minds of the Muslims and "secularists" in this world will NOT let peace be!! For they dont see anything wrong with the picture!!

Its like the "Cut in my Arm gets better because you have a bruise on your leg" philosophy.. Medicine be damned!!

Like I said earlier - the very occurence of Din-e-ilahi in the Muslim history was an amazing feat - given the rigidities.... .and its demise very predictable.

We could consider ourselves BLESSED if within our lifetimes we could simply create an atmosphere where the discussions of the likes that happened in Akbar's court could occur in the Open Society... with every belief and thought ON THE TABLE to be thrashed thread-bare! If ONLY this thing can be achieved and a mechanism instituted that can SUSTAIN it - I am confident that the resultant IDEA VECTOR will be a PEACEFUL one!

But that would mean taking care of our egos and antiqiuated logics and REVISIT everything!!

Personally, I have found Gita to be the most profound writing. And the central message for me was that "Be Skeptical and Question Everything" - for if Arjun had LISTENED to Krishna's first command to fight - he would have never gotten the message of Gita. The only reason the message even came out was because Arjun DID NOT BELIEVE in the Krishna OUTRIGHT or throughout the discourse UNTIL the time he was shown the "Universal Form"!

If I can treat the same book infront of me even with a MODICUM of Skepticism and disbelief that Arjun showed towards Krishna ..

...(if you read plain translations or sanskrit text you would know that there are places where he challenged Krishna on his utterings outrightly)....

....then I would have inculcated the central message of Gita in my life! And in my eyes - Quran and Bible and their teachings - also will not escape such a treatment!! So, for me EVERYTHING ... is ON THE TABLE!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

A skeptic should be skeptical about the skeptical philosophy too...so he is no more a skeptic.

One needs a poem to explain this Convoluted logic.

Well, as I said, I can conviniently quote distorted facts to have a belief overkill.

I quote facts. Not to support some one or some ideology.

That be it. Quote facts. I wouldn't try it interpret them in a way to confirm my beliefs which may have grown out of my culture.

I appreciate your Indo-centric views. That doesn't make your views FAIR to the whole world. If you come to realise that you will see the whole world differently.

Naj:

Thanks for mentioning Ibn-Al-Arabi. I will try and read up on him and get his works in English translation to benefit from them.

What I read on a simple search seems interesting:

"Many Wahabis reject the notion that Ibn Arabi was a Muslim, despite the fact that he openly accepted shahadat. Reasons for Ibn Arabi being branded a heretic were some of his statements in his books such as Fusoos Al-Hikam and Al-Ahkaam. One example is where Ibn Arabi said, "Al-`Abdu Rabbun Warrabbu `Abdun" meaning The slave (human) is the Lord/God and the Lord/God is the slave (human)." Sufis claim that such statements were always considered to be the most elevated exposition of mystical thought in Islam, and therefore unsuitable for the untrained mind.

A profound visionary capacity, coupled with a remarkable intellectual insight into human experience and a thorough comprehension of all the traditional sciences, marks out Ibn Arabi from comparable figures in Islam. It has been tempting for scholars to characterise him as a mystical philosopher, a formulation which is rather at odds with his own teachings on the limitations of philosophical thinking. He was as much at home with Qur'an and Hadith scholarship as with medieval philology and letter symbolism, philosophy, alchemy and cosmology. He could write with equal facility in prose or poetry, and utilised the polysemous ambiguity of the Arabic language to great effect. The characteristic resonances of rhymed prose (saj’), which are to be found in the Qur'an, abound in his works. "

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

I think the Mumbai blasts are a repercussion of the Gujarat riots of 2002. With the complicity of the state government, thousands of innocent Muslims were killed in the riots that followed the death of 60-odd Kar sevaks(Hindu devotees engaged in construction of a temple at the site of the demolished Babri mosque at Ayodhya) at Godhra Railway Station, Gujarat. These devotees were traveling on a train on their return journey from Ayodhya, where they’d gone to participate in the construction work of the Ram temple. Allegedly, Muslim miscreants were behind the fire that engulfed the train and charred to death the Kar sevaks.
The government of India had constituted an investigative committee to determine the cause of the fire. The committee submitted its report 4 years later. The report says that the fire was an accident and not the handiwork of wayward Muslims. There is no reason to doubt the veracity of the report. An upright retired judge of the Supreme Court of India headed the commission.
While revenge killings of innocents can never be condoned, the genocide of the Muslims that followed the death of the Kar sevaks has become all the more reprehensible after it’s been proved that the fire was an accident. Muslims in India make up 14% of the population as against 82% Hindus. Being hopelessly outnumbered, they can never take on the Hindus one on one. So what does a fanatically-inclined Muslim who nurses a grudge against the riotous Hindus do to wreak his revenge? Being numerically weak, stealth and sabotage are the only two weapons in his armour to execute his vengeance. It isn’t a coincidence that the bombs on 11th July were kept in first-class compartments, which are used predominantly by Gujarati businessmen. An overwhelming number of those killed in these blasts bear Gujarati names. There’s an unmistakable nexus between the Mumbai blasts and the Gujarat riots.
I feel that the Rath Yatra(a journey undertaken on a modern-day mechanically operated chariot) undertaken by L K Advani in 1990 was a watershed event in the communal history of India. To garner votes, the Bhartiya Janata Party(the Indian People’s Party, a pro-Hindu political outfit) needed an issue to rally the people around and build up its support-base amongst them. It resurrected the dead Babri Mosque issue. The then president of the party drove through the streets of India on a decorated, mechanical chariot whipping up people’s sentiments--Hindus’ sentiments rather. In no time, the country was polarized on communal lines. The “efforts” of L K Advani finally bore “fruit”and the Babri Mosque was demolished by Trishul-wielding(Trishul is a three-pronged assault weapon used by Lord Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction) Hindus on 06 December, 1992.
Come March 1993 and the commercial Indian city of Bombay witnessed its worst-ever terrorist attacks. A series of bomb blasts left hundreds dead. Pakistan-based Indian underworld don Dawood Ibrahim was the one who engineered the blasts. The motive? Did you think all Muslims are saints and they’d forgive the Hindus for pulling down their mosque? Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, a secret service agency on paper but a terrorist organization in effect, is ever ready to fish in troubled waters. It can easily find recruits in the galvanized ranks of Muslims who’ve been victims of Hindu bigots.

Sanjeev

Changez Khan was converted to Islam??? Wow, that's a revelation.

You guys must be kidding.

He was never converted to Islam, it was his later generation (way later after the carnage) who got converted.

Don't even include him in the history as Muslim, he did everything possible to remove the Muslims from the face of the earth.

Sanjeev:

You are embarking on a very difficult terrain:

Hindu zealots killed in Gujarat for a cause they shouldnt have..

.. but Muslims are now killing because they have a "cause"!!

----------

It is this precisely that helps condone the killings! I too believed that the Gujarat riots started off because of Godhra - but I soon realized that it was foolish!

Foolish because - in the "Revenge Paradigm" - the killing of A CANNOT be revenged by killing B! The Killing of A can only be revenged by killing the KILLER OF A - SPECIFICALLY .. not generally!

Until when will the gujarat riots be used as a boggie for every terrorist act?

If Gujarat riots could not be condoned .... so cant be these terrorist acts... and if you are wont to find a "cause" for the terrorists.. then there was enough immediate "cause" for the Gujarat killings too!

The sick mentality of your logic is something that gets us nowhere!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Some serious comments and views expressed in this EIR REVIEW, in connection with India's battle with terrorism.
http://www.larouchepub.com/eirtoc/2006/eirtoc_3329.html

Dear Desh,

Your definition of “Revenge Paradigm” is not understood by the Hindu bastard who ripped open the belly of a pregnant Muslim woman and burnt the foetus to death. Nor does it get down the throat of the Muslim scoundrel who placed the bombs in the trains in Mumbai. I wonder if the Muslims have a cause with inverted commas, why don’t we see bomb blasts in Switzerland, Brazil, Italy, et al?
We don’t condone the demolition of the Babri Mosque. We don’t condone the demolition of the original Ram temple by Babar either. Tracing the blame on a linear timescale is akin to determining which one came first—the hen or the egg?
If the “sick mentality” of my logic gets us nowhere, can your erudition show us the way, Desh?

Sanjeev

Is religion banned and/or totally separated in the above countries mentioned by Sanjeev?

"Changez Khan was converted to Islam??? Wow, that's a revelation." ~Noname

Noname, thanks for correcting the blunder. Some of his descendents converted to Islam in middleast and Budhhism in China and some remained as nomads in their original ancestral homeland.

To point Genghis Khans barbarism to show the relation between Islam and violence is pathetic on the part of people whose eyes are blinded in their beliefs.

To bring philosophy of skepticism of Baghwat Gita into the discussion of History, about historical facts is intellectual foolishness.

They also confuse Assassins of Syria with all its mythical relationship with Islam. The Marco Polo's fables on the assassins legends have all been proven false by modern studies, but the allegations continues on the premise of old, incorrect and biased history.

History is one who controls it. It is ridiculous to go tit-for-tat on who did what in the past, and I'm speaking for both sides. The current day fundamentalists in Islam are no saints and they can't go scott free by just blaming Israel and US for all of their own problems (and no, they are not all blowing people up, most fundamentalists are just affed up in heads).

But USA should take all the blame for inserting their nose on every other godamn Muslim countries. They seem to have problem living without any enemies in the world. They need to listen to what that racist sob Buchanan has been propagating for a while: get the hell out of everywhere and mind your own freaking business.

Sanjeev:

I was talking about your post where you clearly propose that the Mumbai blasts were BECAUSE of Gujarat riots in a sense of an acceptable cause-and-effect.

"I think the Mumbai blasts are a repercussion of the Gujarat riots of 2002."

That to me is sick!

The other sick and truly nauseating implication you seem to forward is the one that was made by Teesta Setalvad in her now infamous response to BBC - that "we cannot forget the Godhra train had Kar Sevaks"!!! Even kids and women?? Even if building the temple at Ayodhya was a bad thing.. was that enough of a reason in your mind to smoke a KID???

There are reasons.. and then there are alibis.. and further there are sicko statements from the blind posing as the Enlightened!!

There was no business for anyone - despite Godhra being a carnage by Muslims on Kar Sevaks or whoever - to kill in GUjarat.. PERIOD! For the death of a Hindu kid by a Muslim zealot in Godhra CANNOT be revenged (I dont subscribe to revenge - so I refer to "Revenge Paradigm") by killing another Muslim! If at all the revenge had to be taken.. the crowd should have found the people who set fire to the bogeys and shot them alive! But to even touch Another Muslim is NONSENSE!!

By the same implication - for someone who is incensed by the Gujarat carnage, he/she should go target Modi. To target another "hindu" or "Indian" is NONSENSE!!

Like you/Teesta/Rahul, I do not go about having a selective reasoning and cause-effect stories!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hindus and Muslims

religions and the duds
following religions
are interesting people.

Muslims invaded India,
raped the land,
raped the Hindu women.

converted Hindus
in millions by force
to Islam.

changed their holy
Hindu temples into
their God's mosques.

Hindus are now free
from Muslim rule in India,
but are living among Muslims.

most of whom were ealier
holy Hindus. Hindu bhangis
and Hindu chamars - the lower castes.

so the time for revenge now. Right?

convert Muslims
in millions by force
to holy Hinduism.

change all Mosques
of Muslims back
into Hindu temples.

rape all Muslim
women to have
Hindu children.

wait. were the Muslim
women of now not the
Hindu women before?

Why everybody not
become a Muslim,
a Hindu or a Christian?

or why not everybody open
his or her head, leave the
religion and become a human?

Ravi:

"All religions are evil. We do not need religions to be ethical."

The basic reason why "Religions" are evil is because they submerge you with an EGO! The same Ego that creates LUST, LOVE, ANGER etc.. is the EGO that creates religious fantaticism!

A few months back I had written on "Open Source Spirituality" (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/1551) here which not many people take seriously..

.... but if you were to look minutely at the basis of most religions - all they do is add another layer of Ego over the more normal Human Egos of MyHouse, MyMoney, Myfamily.... with religion comes - MyGuru/prophet, HisWord, HisBook, HisHonor..

... So gurus/prophets/saints have NOT helped the mankind.. they have instead ADDED to the egos..

.. so if we were bad.. we went to WORSE.. for now, instead of just fighting for My Land.. I start fighting for My Guru!!

Given that the Gurus/Prophets/Masters have not distinguished themselves well in the course of the history...

.... despite their good intentions of improving the lot of humans..

.. then what is the way out for them?

I propose in my blog that

... When Knowledge is Diseminated as an OWNER then it will inevitably lead to Increase in Egos...

... however, if the knowledge is diseminated as a CONTRIBUTOR.. then it will lead to better results.

The problem has been that all the major Gurus/prophets/masters simply "Patented" the Knowledge .. that they themselves claimed was UNIVERSAL in essence!!

The other point is that while EACH ONE of them was a heretic in his/her own temporal and societal context.. still .. each and every one of them.. kept insisting on Faith in them!!

I am convinced, notwithstanding their bonafide intentions.. Gurus/Prophets/Masters have MESSED up this mankind!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,

Reference to your post # 58, I appreciate your thoughts. You are a thinker and I agree with some of your thinking. The problems is most people do not think, especially when it becomes to religion. And if such people have power- elected officials, politicians or religious zealots with guns and bombs, havoc ensues. We are witness to this almost daily in some or the other part of the world.

So it's all religion and blind faith, and the people unified behind by all this nonsense that are the cause of unrest and loss of peace. Had we not selected a president of the USA because of the red states - the inhabitants of which are basically as religiously zealots as those in the middle-east, perhaps the world history would not be on the current course.

Your post inspired me to write a poem. I hope I'll compose it soon. Thanks.

Rahul - I wonder if you realize you sound like a rabid left winger.

Also, I'm curious to know if Shabana Azmi has ever done anything to help Muslims in India (specifically the women). I know she's big on dumb press releases about minorities. But other than armchair stuff like this, has she ever stuck her neck out, taken on the mullahs, stuff that made a difference?

Desh

If you are interested, you can start with this book: "Divine Governance of the Human Kingdom by Ibn Arabi". The book is available from http://www.fonsvitae.com

In your post to Ravi, you write: "When Knowledge is Diseminated as an OWNER then it will inevitably lead to Increase in Egos...

... however, if the knowledge is diseminated as a CONTRIBUTOR.. then it will lead to better results."

It seems to me that there is some misunderstanding here too. None of the prophets, as far as I know, have claimed that they are the owners. (May be their followers might have imposed it on them)

Jesus never said so. Prophet Mohamed did not say so. He had said repeatedly that he has brought nothing new and never claimed the ownership. Furthermore, Islam acknoweldges that there were a multitude of prophets before him. But we all know that none of them formulated certain practices of Islam, for example the prayer. If Prophet Mohamed thought the islamic form of prayer (which 'he' formulated) is the only way, and those who did not pray in this way will perish ultimately, will he acknowledge the earlier prophets, who never practised the five times parayers? what does that mean?

Nonname,

thanks for the correction. It is funny while I accuse others of ignorance, I too am caught red-handed! Somehow I still have memory of reading so somewhere.

Dear Ravi Kopra,

Apropos your post #52. You have singled out blind faith in religion and God and said any association with it should be banned. By the same token, we should also ban association with blind faith in science, economic theories, medicine, political theories, you get the drift. Blind faith is blind faith, so why discriminate. Let's see if you can find one individual without a blind faith of some kind.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Got the Drift?

Einstein always wrote
All his research papers in German –
His mother tongue.
Though he knew English so well.

But there are people who
Like to debate in a language
Two or perhaps three languages
Away from their village mother tongue.

They think in their desi bhasa.
They talk at home in their desi bhasa.
In their blood and brain is desi bhasa.
Their friends are all desi bhasa friends.

So one can communicate with
Such desi people in a foreign tongue
Up to a level: how are you today, sir?
It seems it might rain today.

Beyond that, you must be kidding
To have some serious talk with them.
When I say ‘blind’ I mean: not based on reason or evidence.
When they say ‘blind’ they mean: unwilling to see or understand.

And then they try to teach me and
Convince me with their philosophies
And ask me: “got the drift?”
“No sir, I didn’t,” I say and keep my silence.

Naj:

Thanks for the reco!

"Furthermore, Islam acknoweldges that there were a multitude of prophets before him"

What about after him? Why and how does that say about his ego? The only reason why someone will "close" the route to revision is when one believed that what he said was the FINAL word! Some Hindus and priests said the same Vedas .. little realizing that if Vedas were indeed the last word - then what was the reason for Krishna to come out with a Gita later?? There is NO LAST word!!

"f Prophet Mohamed thought the islamic form of prayer (which 'he' formulated) is the only way, and those who did not pray in this way will perish ultimately, will he acknowledge the earlier prophets, who never practised the five times parayers? what does that mean?"

If they were indeed so blessed and so correct.. then Why start a religion that wants to differentiate from theirs??? Why say that this path is the best or even better?? It is only when there is an ego!

The real test in my eyes of a greatness is how does one clear the existing cobwebs.. by drawing another line on already crowded paper to show how small the other lines are .. simply makes the paper more messy and black!!

"Nasha pilakar giraana to sabko aata hai magar;
Mazaa to tab hai jab girton ko thaam le saaki!!"

(EVeryone knows hows to get others drunk and fall over;
The real test of a person is if he can keep the drunk from falling over)

[saki means a "bar tender" for lack of a better word]

Further - what does it mean when he said that they were all prophets? Does that mean that everyone's word carries the SAME WEIGHT?? If that is true.. then what is the need of reiterating it again and claiming yourself as the fountainhead of the new truth??? And if indeed it requires a Revision.... then all those before him were "Equal" only in name!!?? And was there any criteria for who "could" be a prophet and who couldnt? Were the priests or Saints of Mecca's idol worshippers also Prophets? Why not? And who gave Muhammad the Arbitrary Right to decide who could be a Prophet and who couldnt?

Furthermore, who said that he was the last Prophet? He himself .. that He was told that he was the Prophet.. and you know that because someone else - a follower or wife Aisha put that in the verses?? hearsay upon hearsay.. upon hearsay!! And everyone else is to assume that His word was the Final!!! Get a life...

Every scripture is a hearsay as Ravi said so well.. so to consider any word in it as the Final Word is nonsense!! That was my precise point. First it was MyLand now it is My Prophet... or HisBook! The Ego layers just keep adding on!!

And really speaking.. no one can "impart" truth to anyone... truth is experienced.

Knowledge is AT BEST an approximation of the Truth!!

Knowledge is only possible when there is a dichotomy between the Observer and the Observed.. only then the Observer can claim "Knowledge" of the Observed - otherwise it is the experience!! Until the Observer BECOMES the Observed... the Truth CANNOT be witnessed.. until then ... there is always a "NOISE" in the experience and articulation of that is conveniently called Knowledge! You can impart knowledge.. but Truth is an experience that no one can provide!

So whoever ever said that He or She could show the path.. you could very easily see that they had no freaking idea of what they were saying!

For no matter which Guru or Prophet is in front of you.. if your inner conscious is not awakened through YOUR self effort.. no Guru/prophet can do anything (or Jesus, Guru Tegh Bahadur etc would not have been killed and tortured)... and if your inner conscious is awakened then the Guru/Prophet is of no use (eg; Valmiki - a Bandit who awakened by repeating "Mara Mara").

As far as the contributorship is concerned vs ownership - the real test of the Saints or Prophet's honesty to me is if anyone started a religion after him. If they did .. its pretty clear that he was a failure! That is why I consider the Rishis of Vedic times very high in my esteem.. for they were at par with the Saints or Prophets like Jesus or Guru Nanak.. but you do did not have religions starting after them. Not all were at that level.. but those who were did not leave behind a religious legacy!! That was, in my view, the first Open Source Movement in the world!

If you read Swami Vivekananda's lectures - despite his HIGH acclaim of Buddha - he considers Buddha and Jesus "second rate".. for they wanted to "Preach" people.. thinking they could "change" them.. which in his opinion is not possible or even worth it from the larger Cosmic Consciousness perspective. And I agree!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Naj:

I listen to two Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan qawwalis regularly that to me hves taught a lot and fashioned my spiritual view. To understand what I have written I invite you to listen and try an contemplate on these two:

1. Tum Ek Gorakh Dhanda Ho
2. Tere Hundeyan Sundeyan Mehbooba

In the latter one - the poet says something to this effect - (paraphrasing the poet)

"Jithe Hai Ikko ..... Othe safaat ki te Jaat ki"

Which means - If indeed there is one.. then of what use are any distinctions or castes/creeds?

Now, evaluate a Prophet or Saint.. in that light!

If there is indeed only ONE.. then what is the need for any Prophet to draw distinctions.. ANY DISTINCTIONS? Even those between Believers and Non-Believers.... even Good or Bad and Devil or Godly? "Gorakh Dhanda" says that in very clear terms.. and I cannot help but agree!!

It is amazing that all the Saints and Prophets say those lofty things but Utterly fail in their own utterances and legacies!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Divya! You never contacted me about meeting up In New York! Nevermind-next time!

To the rest:

'Amandla Awethu '

Rahul: You have immense exposure and opportunity to participate in the socio-political network of India. I generally enjoy your insight which you share here.

However, this article seems a bit contradicting within its own parameters. On July 13th you state, "I opine that the age of terror is here to stay . . ." I agree - It has been a reality especially after 9/11/01. But what brought out this age of terror!

On July 15th you were placing blame on the politicians, religious leaders, etc. painting it as a power game. But the pattern and evidence works in their favour for once. It is clearly a terrorist act committed by infiltrators.

Desh: #4 great points

Dear Ravi Kopra,

I know exactly what you meant by blind faith. This Desi's angrezi bhaSHA (english language) may be deficient in grammar, but certainly not in comprehension. The fact that most of us on this blog are desis (including yourself, unless you are a bleached white angrez using a psuedonym) and converse in her majesty the queen's tongue, shows that serious conversation is indeed possible between brown sahibs. Either you are hypocritical or supremely naive, I don't know which, but you show a certain lack of debating etiquette by attacking people instead of their points.

Distractions aside, let me illustrate a common blind faith in science people have. Let's say a child has a sore throat. Parents go to a doctor and doctor (typically in US) has a common prescription: a dose of antibiotic. Child takes it for 10 days, the cold vanishes in a few, child is dull for a few and everything is fine. What's wrong with this picture?

Typical child has a few of such infections every year. In many cases, the infections become more and more frequent and a low dose antibiotic ceases to work. The doctor is forced to prescribe stronger and stronger antibiotics and even those don't work. The germs are becoming all the more stronger and the hospital stays are becoming extremely dangerous for the sick because of this.

We hear about such things in the media, but most people still go to the same doctor for the same prescription. Why do they do it? Blind faith. These doctors are "educated" (indoctrinated is a better word) in the so-called scientific manner where every procedure and process is "scientifically" proven to work, who prescribe potent drugs which have been shown to be effective using double blind studies by the drug companies. All the fluff and sterile whitecoat is enough to convince the gullible people that what they say is the utlimate truth and what they prescribe is the panacea. Tell me how this is different from a gullible person believing in a witch doctor? Same difference :).

So you see Mr. Ravi Angrez Bleached-white Kopra, blind faith is not the exclusive domain of religious minded people. There are many ways people blindly believe in things they want to believe and it has nothing to do with logic and being logical is not the same as being right.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

PS: I am not religious by the way.

Who should we blame for this attack????????

If you actually read this line and just think calmly for a few minutes you might probably realise the depth of this question.

Few more questions come to your mind

What is that which has emboldened every terrorist to kill and maim innocent people.
???

What goes inside a terrorists mind when he sees people sitting and going on with their lives when he plants a bomb to end their life??????

Who is responsible??????? We all are responsible...............We live in a democracy where the government is a extension of us......policies are our thinking..the way we think.

Lots of people have different ideas and logic....Desh has his killing A and avenging A logic while as someone has something else.

Almost everyone unanimously bashes modi.

The saddest part in our country is that no one cares fot it. Every single incident involving a the minority community(muslims) is highlited by the media, because it sells. Because a cartoonist bloke in denmark gets a fatwa declared on him from someone in meerut who does not even know where denmark is on the map. Is this acceptable.
How long can our governments play votebank politics and continue to promote and shield what is unjust.

It is really sickening to hear that bombay blasts were a result of gujrat killings. What are people trying to imply...This is a pure threat that too very caterogic and straightforward.

terrorists have been killing hindus in Jammu & Kashmir systematically since last two decades. How many right wing hindu organizations (as per Rahul and likes) have become terrorists. The answer is none.

I would like to ask Rahul and like who use wings to describe peole and organizations. What is a right wing hindu. Or what is a hindu zealot.

Do hindus have madradssas flourishing across the country shouting 24x7 that there is only one God Allah. And all non-muslims are kafirs and need to be exterminated.

Do hindus plant bombs in busses and trains.

Have hindu terrorists infiltrated pakistan, indonesia, bangladesh etc...

Eight million hindus were thrown out of their homes in 47 and forced to migrate here in India. Why?????? because they were non-muslims.....Now after 5 decades they are again threatened with terrorism. History stands testominy to the fact that whereever muslims tend to get an overwhelming majority they systematically wipe out non-muslims. Look at the figures of Pakistan and Bangladesh post independence and now.

Hundreds of temples have been destroyed in Pakistan since 47. Who cares....But babri masjid is a black spot on indida. Comparatively Pakistan and bangladesh look all black to me. I don't support the destruction of Babri masjid or any masjid anywhere.

All muslims are not terrorists......but all terrorists are muslims. This is a warning sign not for non muslims but for the muslim community, because of the antihuman thinking of a certain percentage the entire community is blacklisted. Most muslims i know are like myself good old folks leading a life..striving for the better. But a lot many of them have a different outlook towards life and world..they get easily swayed by religious politics and brainwashing.

What is it that makes a politician use some incident in some other country(denmark) to further his political gains. Why do muslims listen to such nonsense. The question is what comes first country, ethics, humanity or religion in the hierarchy of things.??? If we have thousands of muslims endorsing such fatwa statements the answer is clear...and if don't have any politician critising such acts the clarity becomes more transparent. Means ""chalta hai"" such things are acceptable.

Who is responsible and makes us accept such nonsense.

perhaps we all need to think....and strive for peace and a better life.

Amit

Amit,

Very interesting analysis and in total agreement with your conclusion "perhaps we all need to think....and strive for peace and a better life."

Desh,

What appears sick to you seems like simple common sense to me. The fact that I believe that Mumbai blasts wouldn’t have occurred if Gujarat riots hadn’t happened does NOT mean that I am condoning the blasts. How could you even think that I would stoop so low? Every time I hear about a killing, I feel a part of myself has died. I am a “Hindu”, but when I imagine and feel myself to be a Muslim, I experience a tremendous paradigm shift. All of a sudden, the entire scenario falls in perspective. I can feel how a 140-million strong Muslim feels in a 820-million strong Hindu India.
I tell you what Desh, we need to “feel” more than we “think”. The world would be a much better place if we all began to FEEL just a little bit more. Harmony isn’t about eliminating the differences; it’s about reconciling the differences.

Sanjeev

I was called a terrorist yesterday, but when I came out of jail, many people embraced me, including my enemies, and that is what I normally tell other people who say those who are struggling for liberation in their country are terrorists. I tell them that I was also a terrorist yesterday, but, today, I am admired by the very people who said I was one.

NELSON MANDELA,

Kamini,

Very nice quote. I think you'll agree its not pertinent here. Mandela was fighting for the rights of his own people to rule their own country.

Here we are discussing people who are not fighting for liberating their country but at the behest of minders, in another country, who want to bring down this country. There's a big difference.

One fact I will not dispute is that the world is still struggling to come with a comprehensive definition for terrorism and terrorists.

"What appears sick to you seems like simple common sense to me. The fact that I believe that Mumbai blasts wouldn’t have occurred if Gujarat riots hadn’t happened"

Sanjeev: And what was the motivation for 1993 blasts??

I am saying there is NO reason for any terrorist attack EXCEPT the sick mind of an individual or a group!! PERIOD!!

Like Amit Tikkoo says very rightly - if your quid-pro-quo theories were to indeed be true then by now we should have a bomb blast daily in a Muslim area by Kashmiri Pandits! Have you heard any such an act? Do you think they were treated any better than pieces of furniture? The Muslims across the country are still doing fine..

.. btw, here is blog post on my site (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2888) -

... what I found crazy was that three Muslim organizations were paying the Attorney to fight the case for the Accused in 1993... and where did the money come from? The Muslim community at large! Why? Because they IDENTIFIED with them!!

Where the F was Shabana Azmi or Rahul or Teesta when an entire community in an area identifies with those folks????

A lot of people in Pakistan and elsewhere tell us that Kashmir is the "cause" of all this.... to me such people are first imbecile and second, they freaking insult my intelligence!! Kashmir is a SYMPTOM not a cause!! If it wasnt Kashmir it could have been Junagadh or Hyderabad or something else! And if the Muslim/Paki heart did beat so loudly for Kashmir then the state of those in Gilgit would be better.... the portion that Pak sold off to China would never have been!

It is imperative to see whether what you quickly categorising in a simple cause-and-effect relation is actually that?

THERE IS NO and CANNOT BE ANY reason for terrorism!

And Why does the Muslim commmunity always require to come out maim and kill folks to get rid of their anger??/

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"I tell you what Desh, we need to “feel” more than we “think”. "

Sanjeev:

I have said this earlier somewhere here once - I have seen and felt the strife of muslims at least once when I personally visited at least 60 villages across UP while doing a research project. We went from Madrasa to Madrasa and Mosques to talk and find out the causes and ways to better the socio-economic situation. What I found there made me sad and frustrated!

The Muslim community's mindset in the rural areas was consistently by the Maulvis and Madrasa leaders - where they would not give education the role it deserves... I saw the absolute frustration and resolve of the youth who wanted to study in the "normal schools" but could not.. who wanted to earn like any other kid but could not because their community leaders would seal their fate by sending them to madrasa!

Because they had not much education, the Muslim community by and large was made of artisans... there was no improvement in their lot because they could not get out of that rut!

The Wakfs and the community properties that could be used to better their lot was being held by some individuals by fraud! I havent seen any Wakf Board reps who were straight and honest!

The Youth was frustrated but some gave a ray of hope! There was one such guy in his late 20's who had started a school for Muslim boys and girls... and names it after Maryam to emphasise that girls were especially welcome. It took him years to get some girls for his school!

He had his own curriculum .. ..where he would have books that would declare Ram, Krishna, Buddha etc as "Prophets" and so he was trying hard to inculcate a sense of secularism in the kids! As he said - "I want them to come out as Indians, and not Muslims from my school!"

What I saw was ostenibly impressions and thoughts gathered over a short period of time... but of significant value for me! Because it brought out the ABSOLUTE HYPOCRISY of the Seculars and the Muslim leaders so starkly!!

To every kid I met - Shiv Sena or the Bajrang were NOT a threat.. it was the neighborhood IMAM or MAULVI! Yet, none of these idiots of the "Secular" combine ever go and fight ON BEHALF of those kids against those wretched group of priests! Because that doesnt look sexy!

Sanjeev - a lot has to be done... but the need is always to do an HONEST action.. not one that is being propogated as the sexiest way out for secularism to live!

I will end with a "case study" during that tour.

There was this Sikh family in a village near Saharanpur who lived next to a Muslim family. The village had a Madrasa and a Gurudawara school. We first talked to this lady bathing her son.

"Do your kids study?"

oh yes!

"Where? in the Gurudwara school?"

No, in the town nearby.

"Oh in the government school there"

What nonsense! Is there any education in the Govt schools? We send them to private ones!

"What about your daughters"

Same education.

Now we went to the Muslim family..

"Do you kids study?"
The son does.

"And the daughter"
No.

"Where does he study"

In the madrasa in the nearby town.

"Why not in the normal school?"
because it doesnt have Deeni Taleem. Our Maulvi told us that we shouldnt send our kids over to those schools!

SIdenote: UP Govt. has a program where they started a special board called "Arabi-Farsi Board" where the schools curriculum includes Deeni Taleem as well as normal subjects. The schools that implement such programs are paid the teachers' salaries! YET most Muslims REJECT such a board!!

Do you want to guess why? Because the Maulvi doesnt want his bread and butter giving Madrasa to be closed! Which in turn is controlled by the larger Madaris like Dar-ul-uloom - which are controlled by the political minded Muslim leaders and religious leaders!

Folks like Syed Shahbuddin and Imam Bukhari are the ones who strangle the lives of kids in the rural and poor areas DAILY!!! WHo cares!!

Because it is not a Natural "Cause-and-Effect" to think that someone from a Minorities OWN community could be responsible for its mess.. we need to find and EQUAL AND OPPOSITE CAUSE!! The truth be damned!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Well Desh, as I said in my first comment at # 47, what I have seen, heard and read from news reports, 1993 Mumbai blasts were the direct fallout of the demolition of the Babri mosque. Dawood Ibrahim, aided and abetted by Pakistan’s ISI, engineered those blasts. Mosque pull-down takes place in Dec 1992. Blasts happen in March 1993. As far as I know there was no bomb blast in Mumbai prior to 1993. Now in making these connections, I am not in any way trying to condone anything by establishing a cause-and-effect relationship. I am just trying to trace the roots of terrorism. A numerically weak adversary resorts to stealth to “settle scores” with his numerically strong “enemy”.

Having said that, I am fully aware that Hindus in Bangladesh were persecuted horribly in the wake of the demolition of the mosque in India. Tasleema Nasreen has brought out the atrocities committed on hapless Hindus in her book. She was exiled and a fatwa was issued on her head. She has become Bangladesh’s Salman Rushdie. In contrast, Teesta Setalvad is a heroine in India! I also have no doubt that if Muslims were in the majority in India, our country would be an Islamic state. India is secular because of the Hindus.
In Bangladesh, where Hindus’ numeric proportion is much smaller than the proportion of Muslims in India, we haven’t seen Hindu jehadis blowing themselves up as suicide bombers, despite such grave atrocities committed on them. What does all this mean? The Hindu culture is a passive one. For hundreds of years, all sorts of invaders—the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Moghuls--have come here, looted and plundered us. We’ve been welcoming everyone with open arms. Today India bears no grudge to anyone. If the Hindus had a Bin Laden, they’d launch an attack on the United Kingdom to avenge 200 years of subjugation!

Historical wrongs can not be righted by force. It would’ve been ideal if the Muslims had surrendered to the Hindus the Babri mosque site to atone for the sins of an unjust king. They did not. Every community is equally paranoid of each other. But two wrongs do not make a right. Pulling it down by force, the campaign being spearheaded by a political party struggling to revive its political fortunes, was appalling.

Today we say terror is here to stay. Did we ever use to say it in 1990?

Sanjeev

"Today we say terror is here to stay. Did we ever use to say it in 1990?"

If your point of reference was India - you did!!

Hello all,
Whenever any tragic incidents in the form of blast due to terrorism take place,v all r sad,off-course!!But we all forget,that the people who undertake these acts are human-like us all!(I am a psychologist 2 go into psyche of man!!)
Wat v all need 2 reason within ourselves is y these "so-called terrorist" actually get ready to all this!!Arent they afraid 2 c human-blood like us all??
The seeds of hatred is not sown in 1 day!!
These incidents were 2 come,if v c,the events in couple of yrs.when communal violence take place in Godhra or any city or town as such ,be it kashmir,Mumbai always had 2 face the brunt!!
When Politicians give speeches giving rise to communal-riots,its here that the seeds of terrorism is sown.And the children of these victims become terorist in future!
Cant v ,as citizens of India,stop these vote-gaining politicians frm giving such speeches,yatras etc!!Censors scan what public shud watch on Tv ,dont v need such rules 2 watch wat speeches these politicians make??
Politicians shud b held responsible for anything happening in our country!!Its high time that our Constitution make ammendments wherein politicians trying 2 gain vote in the name of religion shud not b allowed to stand 4 elections!
Else, v hav no right to call ourselves democratic!
regards,
Soumya

It is very clear that whenever a call comes from the clerics of Islam....That islam is in danger.....It traverses continents and not only countries. Most muslims are brought up on the ethics that religion comes first and country and humanity last. We have terrorists from sudan and afghanistan fighting in kashmir. What do they have in common with the kashmiries....nothing.

Indian subcontinent has created two Islamic countries, and India right now supports a muslim population which is larger than both the countries. Eventhough india is a democracy it does not have uniform civil code. There are different laws for muslims, it means the community already as a fence around itself. Our politics has already become slave to the community votebank. No one from the ruling party issued a official statement against the declaration of fatwa for a danish journalist, who has got nothing to do with our country.

The terrorist who killed 9 unarmed airforce officers in cold blood(apart from other kilings) in kashmir is heading a political party now and is considered an apostle of peace.

The terrorist who killed and tortured 100+ kashmiri pandits, and acknowledged on national television in an interview that he lost count after 41.He even recalled the first few murders and said he killed them because they were pandits and he was told to do so. Even he has not been convicted so far. Can you imagine any hindu killing 100 muslims in the first place......and that too in a islamic country......and then left alive....would go too far. Such a thing cannot even be dreamt. People have no idea of the horrific life that hindus have been leading in bangladesh and kashmir.

I am a kashmiri pandit and have been exiled from the land of my ancestors where we had been living since 4000 years. The sad part is i am one among hundreds of thousands. Why have we been driven out, why were we hounded like dogs and killed in cold blood. Things are obvious...there is a threshold level for every geography in this world. When the muslim populace of that geography crosses this threshold the geography becomes an islamic state. Does anyone refute this fact????
India is slowly inching towards one more threshold. Muslims are not responsible for this but we are responsible. Instead of creating vote banks we need to create an awareness for right and wrong. Acceptable and not acceptable.
Even our politicians who thrive on muslim vote banks do not want muslim community to grow and prosper. They just want them to multiply and continue to live in misery and create more votes. For if they prosper get education, get jobs, get a good life they will cease to solve their purpose...voting....Such politicians are responsible....such political process, ethos, thinking, psyche is responsible for all this. We still cannot impose a ban on SIMI which controls hundreds of madrassas and been linked to almost every terrorist bombing in india.

Pseudo secularists, people who think like Rahul and likes. Hey Rahul don't get me wrong i am not targetting you or anything....but your knowledge of things is little and your thinking warped towards the wrong side. Perhaps some people who have lived a goody goody life never get to trespass on they grey side of things.

Our country has people like arundhati roy who for the sake of publicity do anything. She has written scores of articles about gujrat riots....most of which was her imagination...about kashmir...and defends jeelani, the accused in parliment attack. The problem is, she has no knowledge about kashmir or godhra. She just has a good command over english. And she knows that it sells...bashing modi sells....branding people as hindu zealots sells....right wing hindutava sells...But these very people will never have enough courage to come up and say that issuing a fatwa against a Danish citizen is not only wrong....hell it does not bear any relevance. Simply saying we got nothing to do with it.

Anyways it is good to see that minds like Desh, Dara, Sanjeev are thinking and sad to see people like Rahul in a reverie.

regards and peace to all.

Amit

"1993 Mumbai blasts were the direct fallout of the demolition of the Babri mosque. Dawood Ibrahim, aided and abetted by Pakistan’s ISI, engineered those blasts."

In that case, Sanjeev - the GUjarat riots were a CAUSED by the 1993 blasts, Godhra and the terrorist activities in the country!

If event A caused event B then it stands to reason that Event B would have been the direct cause of event C!! Unless of course, only one group of people have the RIGHT to be offended!! Just because a person is "boxed" as a Majority does not mean that he/she will not have any emotions or should lay flat while he/she is raped and killed!!

And Soumya, if you are so wont to do the psycho-analysis of the terrorist then please let me when you get the time to do the psycho-analysis of the "Hindu zealot" who killed Muslims during the Gujarat riots! For, if the terrorist is a HUMAN BEING.. so is MODI!

These selective Psycho-analysis theories are a bunch of hog-wash and they stand in the way of an honest analysis of the situation!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"Most muslims are brought up on the ethics that religion comes first and country and humanity last. "

Here is the statistical evidence. "Nation vs Religion: Differences between Muslims and Christians" (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2770)

Two nation theory was not an abberation - it was the norm! And its not kashmir.. its this two nation theory that is the CAUSE of all problems between India and Pak.

Why is two nation theory a norm? In Islamic lifestyle the "Deeni Taleem" has to be interwoven with the "Duniyavi Taleem". Which means that the "Deen" (or religious) cannot be separated from the "Duniyavi" (Mundane). What is true of education is also true of politics.

Towards that end, it becomes a "duty" of every believer to make sure that they can do the Deeni dictats in the Duniyavi tasks or actions. That is not a possibility in a non-Islamic framework. For example, Islamic banking or banning of music or arts or special dressing of women (an issue in France).... so if there is enough of a populace (threshold as Amit calls it), then it is "kosher" for the populace to declare its freedom and fas