Excellent Rahul.

BTW, I'm so not looking forward to watching your movie with Malika Sharawat, but hey, you're not expecting us to watch it either right? Glad you're getting yourself into the commercial side of the business, I think you deserve that recognition and security that comes with it.

i don't think we should blame anyone.
we are all innocent.
we are all culpable.

who should we forgive?

Good article Rahul. I know a few right wing nutcases here in this forum will argue like the right wing journalist you are talking about. But I think the world will soon become more civilized. Like any big transformation, the losers in the transformation process will whine a lot before they vanish in the history. What we are seeing in the form of Hindu terrorists, Muslim terrorists, Christian evangelicals, etc. are just the last bits of the primitive society which we are going to leave behind in this transformation.

Just a few observations:

1. I think if the "rabid right-wingers" (great way to construct a Halo for yourself by boxing the "other" guy) have a "simplified" version of reality.. so do the rabid peaceniks like you. If Israel is not the right model, Gandhi also isnt the right model.. ask the folks who lost everything in partition - but heck they were "collateral damage" that was of the acceptable kind.. so who cares. The point is simple... just because you take a Moral High Road doesnt make you r view a practically useful one for the folks who are dead or will certainly die.

2. A doctor - Ansari - was caught.. he was a normal guy next door. The question that I have top-most in my mind is a simple one, that I challenge you or the others to answer: How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"?? This is not a rhetorical question.. it is at the very BASE of the strife that the world is in today!! And the way out is obviously not to bomb every living Muslim out of the world.

If Jehad - as the moderate Muslims are wont to suggest - is indeed a personal introspection... then isnt it time that someone actually turned the face of "Introspective" Jehad TOWARDS Quran itself as well as its tenets that create the terrorists?

Sati is ostensibly not finished but it is not at the same levels as it was a century ago. Its decline and end is predicated on the introspection of a few leaders like Dayananda Saraswati and Ram Mohan Roy.

3. "What if the obvious communal card is played by cynical religious and political leaders?" Is it just a communal card? If you were analyzing this entire terrorism world as a Statistician - what would be your conclusion? No matter what method you apply - the fact that there is a SIGNIFICANT CORRELATION BETWEEN ISLAM and TERRORISM cannot escape a DISPASSIONATE mind!!!

I know this is enough to get me the "rabid right winger" label from you and some nuts here.. but that is what I call the argumentative style of the BRAINLESS.. for such a strategy requires no unpleasant or thorough think through. Just create the box for the other guy... .put him in it. .and just dust you Halo.. wear it. VOILA! The debate has been won.. without an answer.... until the next crowd is rammed into by another Ansari!!

... the box business meanwhile does a great!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"What we are seeing in the form of Hindu terrorists, Muslim terrorists, Christian evangelicals, etc. are just the last bits of the primitive society which we are going to leave behind in this transformation."

some people were obviously so busy doing their physics theorems that they never read History... they get up once in a while and keep talking about a utopia that - one, is not there; and second, noone has achieved....

... for those who take such nonsense seriously.. make a will and get some insurance!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Growing up is not a skill. Any Tom and Harry can do. It appears some dicks are still having struggle growing up. The transformation will take care of them.

Ravi,

Do you mean to say colonial Britishers were civilized. You are way too off my friend.

Now that is the Krish I remember!!!!!

"Transformation" for peace - temporary though it ever was - has never been brought about by arrogant, fascist minds but by humble spirits who looked at themselves first and never shrugged at asking and answering the tough questions!!

That is precisely the tragedy of our age - the Peaceniks have gained a lot of self-importance under the heavy weight of their self-constructed Halo...

..... and have become their own caricatures!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

Ravi:

Just read your poem on non-violence and liked it.

It is nauseating to see when people launch on their Moral Journeys in the safety of their offices or metropolises on the wings of ABSOLUTE NON-VIOLENCE without understanding it in proper context!!

Non-violence was never and can never be a Moral on its own. Whenever you are faced with a dilemma where on one side is a non-violent reaction and on the other side are the lives of many.. all you need to ask is a simple question:

- Does my "non-violent" behavior hurts the victim or the Violent! If the answer points to the FORMER then what you are indulging is INACTION and not Non-Violence!!

That is why I believe a pacifist like Guru Nanak thought nothing wrong with their Isht Dev - Ram.. the pacifist with arms!!

To borrow from my Business Intelligence verities (businessintelligence.typepad.com) :

Information + CONTEXT = Intelligence

To base your action on Information and not considering the context leads you to inherently take inappropriate actions!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com
BusinessMusings.com

No one ever wins a war. It only causes loss of all kinds.

"No one ever wins a war."

And non-violence... Against a war?

Nimita - taking action for self defense and hurting the other is not very different. Its semantics.

I think it wreaks of Moral Bankruptcy when YOUR Non-violence has to be paid with someone else's life!!

if you want "brownie points" in the larger Universe of Moral Heaven... then please BUY the passage through YOUR life....

... and stop forcing innocents into becoming your Sugar daddies!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Rahul as always intersting reading...

Desh,
How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"??
The truth is you cannot differentiate between the two...i've seen people's smile fade away when they ask me ...you are from india,you are a hindu?I tell them no i'm a muslim...Some people plainly ignore me after that and thats okay.

Andaleeb:

"The truth is you cannot differentiate between the two"

That.. precisely is the challenge of our age!!

I have a post on my blog (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2845) where I talk about the doc - Ansari - who was caught. The question I have in there is: How come when an "islamic maulvi" touches an ordinary man - he becomes a terrorist?

This is the sign of COMPLETE DEFEAT of all of us!! I am not sure how this differentiation can be done... but someone .. probably amongst the Muslims .... needs to find/devise that mechanism!!

I have a basic principle -

"Either I put a Cost to My Failure.. or the Failure will put a Cost on Me!"

The ability to put a cost to your failures - here, failure to create the framework where differentiation is natural - will be the key to the world peace!! So that someone like you would not be ignored and an innocent be killed!

I hope, Andaleeb, you can appreciate that the act of ASKING QUESTIONS is not necessarily an ANTI-MUSLIM act.. Faith and blind belief got no one nearer the truth! If Buddha had listened to his palace priest or Jesus followed on his Jewish faith.. they wouldnt have become what they did!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Why is there a need for YOU to differentiate THEM?

Fear.

The natural solution IS for you to mind your own business and let them mind their own. But that's not how humans react because they have their pride to save and fear to conquer.

The talks of ceasefire failed, well duh, unless each party agrees on minding their own business, there is no true ceasefire. But someone got to make money......so the cycle continues.

The talk of violence and non-violence tacticts is all bull, it is as same as believing in God and not believing in one, show me the freaking difference!. There is no goddamn God when your stomach is empty, and the God of excessively filled stomach is nothing but a fart.

Desh,
Rest assured i do appreciate your posts and do like to read them. Questions need to be raised and if possible discussed amicably.For once, i myself donot understand given my upbringing,and my childhood that how islam had become a breeding ground for terrorism...Terrorism baffles me and i am born as muslim and am a practising muslim.I am disgusted by the acts of terrorism etc and terrorists.
I can understand,how mind boggling it can be for someone who looks from outside.I am sure they must wonder why people glorify this religion, whose followers commit extremly violent acts on other human beings......

Andaleeb:

Thanks for understanding!

I think the questions you have as a Muslim are the sort of questions that most people - non-muslims - have as human beings.

I often wonder the scenes and the temper of discussions in Akbar's court before he came up with the framework of Din-i-Ilahi. I am sure the Maulvis of that time were no less vocal as today.. and I am sure the questions and counter-questions were as sharp. Why and how did that happen then?

I think there was one major reason - because Everything... EVERY belief and core thought was ON THE TABLE to be discussed and analyzed and debated.. dispassionately!

If we all can accomplish just such an environment.. .then the resultant debate will take care of the future peace.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

We should blame the weakness of humans, to overcome anger/hate; and the compound effect it has when pitted with religious beliefs; which then ultimately becomes a socializing agent for abuse/hate, poverty, genocide of race and girl infants, and the profitable mongering of war.

DID Condolezza Rice, deliver "anything" on her "surprise" visit, I ponder, wonder, and flounder for an answer..... other than professionally written press-conference speech's?

I feel, sending Rice; shows the USA is involved up to their eye-balls.... as per the usual war-norms of their past/present historical accounts!

Can anyone tell, I'm not impressed with the US?

Looks like they are going for a world-record of balancing multi-war-involvements con-currently?

It is easy to slip a knot down the rope of hope, when all most of us can do, is sit back and watch the world's leaders kill innocents.... and never knowing "truthfully" why!?

Dear folks,

Some interesting questions have been raised here. I believe in peace and non-violence, but in-action can't be an answer to violence. I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my loved ones, else I have failed the test of living.

How do we distinguish between a peace loving muslim and an islamic terrorist.

Every community, religion has its share of terrorists. What matters is not whether one can distinguish the "Good" and the "Bad", but how the community treats its "Bad". It has been my observation that in Islamic community, there is a reluctance on the part of the "Good" ones to chastise its "Bad". This also extends to the intellectual debates. There are only a handful of Salman Rushdies in a community of more than a Billion! That says something of the level of tolerance in the community for dissent. On other hand, just on this one blog, there is a Krish and there is a Rahul.

Perhaps there was a time when there was a lot of dissent and a lot of tolerance. That's why Islam rose to the heights it did during the first half of the second millennium. Dissent and tolerance are the hallmark of a great community and the resultant diversity enriches everybody. Islam stopped living somewhere along the way and we all see the results. Until the community realises its folly, the "Good" and the "Bad" will continue to pay the price.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Dear Rahul,

I reread your post after I posted #22. Your last paragraph is incomplete. Your dread of what is to come is justified. However, it also needs to be pointed out that the over reaction of Hindu zealots will stop once the Islamic community starts taking responsibility for its terrorists. Once they start identifying the terrorists and suspicious characters among themselves and let the law take its course. Once they stop their mosques from being used to spout hatred and violence. And most importantly, once they stop their madrassas from brainwashing their young and turn them into these killers.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Hi rahul
i admire the work you do on screen and in real life as well. We need more people like you

Ravi K, I'm in agreement with you. There seems to be a selective denial in Islamic communities (I won't say all because that would be gross generalization), but you're correct, they have found themselves in an odd situation of forced cleanup, which they must do or else their survival or better yet, an enlightnment of future generation is at stake.

well..this is for Krish and other ' vegetarian Indian’ folks.
Indians have history of losing to almost all colors of people except Black . What would be the reason behind timid response to bombay blastS. Is it vegetarian food or something else.
Indians should learn something from Israel.

Dear Rahul,

Wish you a very very happy birthday...May all your wishes and dream come true....

dear Rahul

great reporting: very moving, and psychologically very perceptive, regarding terrorists' motivations and strategic goals.

love, heather

Happy Birthday Rahul!

Here is an article in Indian Express:

"Terrorism: Battle within the Muslim community"

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=71579&headline=Terrorism:~Battle~within~the~Muslim~community

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Rahul:

Ok .. now that you have turned 45.. its time you did more mature roles, buddy!! ;-) Just kidding..

.. have fun on the wrong side of 40's!! ok.. kidding again

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hello Desh,

I fully agree with you.

All i can say for Rahul is

"Little knowledge is a dengerous thing, drink deep or taste not the perenial spring"

regards

What's wrong in the Israel's eye for eye policy?

For me things are pretty clear, I am an Indian even before being a human being, then I am a human being , then a hindu and so on so forth, so even if 1 Indian is killed my blood boils and I think we have to hit back no matter how and when, if it stops this ambush we should do it.

If we can't do that then lets even stop protesting and holding vigil, it's just another photo opportunity for the Page 3 people.

Many of whom don't forget have been dance every now or then in Dawood's party, the most wanted terrorist of India.
So its upon us to tell our elected representatives, if u think an Indian life has no value u are very wrong and get ready to face the consequences, lets show them the door, we don't need politicians or Page 3 making statements, we want to see the casualties coming down , we want to see that the terrorists are exterminated, we just want that done , how that has to be done , on our part we have to be vigilant and on their part the government has to talk tough, besides there are not bomb blasts every week in USA, so talking tough helps, we should remember even before being human , we are Indians, I don't forgive anyone who either kills or misguides any Indian , so kill if u have to , but stop this blood-shed.
I become restless when I see the lady(she has a 30 day old baby) who is speechless with shock after losing her spouse, or the helplessness of the 13-year old , who lost his father and whose mother is not ready to accept this fact and keeps on telling him all are liars , ur dad will be back.
We need to show our teeth , nails and bullets and missiles , etc. and I don't beleive in getting lost in the whacky jokes of a Pakistani performer, when their land is the hot-bed of anti-India activity, its time to react lest they will conitinue to kill and misguide our people.
Our plural society is threated by the mechanisations of Pakistan and they have to pay for this.

And if a rabid right wing politician can ensure that , I will vote for them, so should everyone else, and if they too fail, pick someone else, but they have to stop this and Uncle Sammy (US) is no one to dictate us what to do or what shouldn't be done.

If I am hurt and I need medication, I will have it come what may.

I've been thinking about this for the last week or so. Following articles on the internet and the UK Nationals (in relation to Israel's response to Hizbullah, by striking Lebanon).

There are three prongs to the approach to Terrorism in my view:-

1. Address the root cause of terrorism. How?; Cut off the oxygen supply. The biggest issue that has to be dealt with in todays world is the arms trade. A selling arms to B, B passing on arms to C. C being politcally supported by A etc etc. Israel has one of the biggest arms contract with India. Switzerland, is the most hypocritical, as it is actually the biggest arms dealer in the world, despite its foreign policy of neutrality. Kalashinikovs sold to terrorist groups after war torn situtaions in Eastern Europe. The issue is that, politically, Governments are publicly combating Terrorism and taking the high moral ground, and yet behind closed doors countries are sealing arms deal with the very groups that they are trying to conuter attack-of course these links are tenuous, but they are known.

2. Political Approach. The 'eye for the eye' approach has been morally accepted, by some in the 'War against Terror'. This is the biggest problem. If Bush advocates this, how can his actions or Isreal's action not been deemed as Terrorism itself. Attacking innocent civilians in the way that Extremists attack innocent civilians in Bombay/London etc.

3. Negotiation. Perhaps its time to bring the extremists to the table. The process is a long arduous one, but it eventually brought some form of agreement between the IRA and the UK Government.

In terms of dealing with the threat of terrorism on a daily basis, unfortunately what can a civilian do? Only that they are more alert to their surrounding environment and try and maintain some sort of calmness. If a suicide bomber want to blow up a marketplace, transport system, I dont think there is anything you can do about it-except put such stringent secuirty mechanisms in place, that youare checking everybody everywhere all the time. This is physically impossible in communter situations where you have millions of people passing through stations etc all the time.

Most people have been living with the threat of Terrorist attacks all their lives. You cannot create a bubble around yourself and never go out again. After the London bombings, communters were back on the tube and trains the next day. What's your option? You have to go to work, to go shopping for food, to go out! The basis on which Terroristic attacks work, is to cause as much chaos and public disruption as possible and of course to take lives. Isn't this what Isreal is currently doing in Lebanon?.

The problem with Terrorism today, is the strong belief that Terrorists have, that in taking their own lives, they are committing the ultimate sacrifice in the name of God/Freedom whatever is their doctrine.

In Kanika Sethi's post she mentioned her boss saying that effectively, the value of an Iraqi human life was not worth more than the value of an American life. This philosophy is cutting both ways in the 'War Against Terror', advocated by Bush. In todays world an eye for an eye seems to be the short cut to peace for some Governments..but is it? My fear is that one of these days a Terrorist group will get hold of a nulclear weapon and use it (or possibly a Government will use it)..perhaps its already the case, with the arms trade you don't know who has got what-but you hope to hell they're not going to play war with the Big Boys.

Rahul,

I have mixed feelings about your views. While I read with interest about your interviews on the local and admired your taking up the assignment I felt it finally went off at a tangent in coming to an answer as to who should we blame. The end result is that we are back to discussing a subject we are most comfortable with, attacking or defending Islam.

Reading your account of the plight of the daily commuter, isn't it pertinent that no one brought up the issue of Muslims and Islam? They were simply expressing their insecurities and unfortunately that is what needed to be addressed first of all. That is the problem of the ordianry Indian. We know, or think we do, who is responsible. What people want to know is what is being done and why are we seeing Mumbai becoming such an easy target. So who do you think is responsible and what needs to be done?

It is apparent that the idea of communal riots and the problems of the Muslim community were interjected into the discussion by those conducting the interview not by those who were expressing their plight. Perhaps there is a lesson in that.

I wish you had mentioned the name of the 'rabid right-wing journalist'. For one I would like to keep myself informed and also because I would like to form my own opinion about the individual.

In fact, having written this blog almost a fortnight later, I think the ordinary citizens of this city should have been commended for maintaining peace and trying to get back on their feet. However, I am now apprehensive of even this peace lasting, for the simple reason that I find the media and those who put forth their views through it, are at times almost mocking and baiting this calmness. There are enough hot heads and idiots who will rise and take up this bait. Who then will take responsibility for that calamity? No one. The baiters will put on their bleeding heart robes and start airing their views and raising questions on their programmes asking for people to send in their votes on silly non-sensical questions and the victims and the families of those who suffered this trauma will be consigned to the back burner.

To me the real problem seems to be of good intentioned people, bringing up the bogey of communal discord instead of trying to understand where our security and administration went wrong and learning lessons from it. The result of all this is that the people who suffer are those who shouldn't. People like Andaleeb, who are striving hard and facing embarrassment because of their co-religionists and searching for answers within themselves. They need to be helped and encouraged to look for answers within their religion, not be forced to become defensive because of our condescension and sympathy.

Andaleeb, all I can say is that I feel for you and your discomfiture, and the only solution I can suggest is that maybe it is using the teachings of Islam to counter the claims of the jehadists and those who so obviously distort its teachings to justify their crimes. Not a very comfortable or even practical suggestion perhaps, but then, like you too, everyone is groping for answers.

Rahul,

Just saw its your birthday. Many many happy returns. All I can say is that please listen to me - the one who knows! I'm the guy who took a small bet in January that the Sensex would cross 25,000 in July. ;)

But Dear Kamini...How will they become rich if they don't sell? World runs on buy and sell model, and how to become rich as fast as possible is the dream of many. What do you think Dear Deepak kept on talking for so long abt Military Industry complex. Bitter but True! Pathetic story of humans! For money, they are ready for killing and wars. That's the ground reality sadly.

Anyway..How are you doing? Just wanted to write to you, and not get into any discussion. I've always liked your posts.

Love..Sachin

I think anyone who participates in a discussion of virtues/vices of non-violence/violence ought to watch this video. A part of myself has died after I watched it. Don’t use the link if you are faint-hearted or even too squeamish.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/american_hostage_eugene_armstrong_beheading_video_killed_by_zarqawi_militant_group_Sep_21_2004.html

Desh
"How do you differentiate (pre-empt) a "peace-loving Muslim" from a "sleeper cell-acting as a peace-loving Muslim"??"

I will tell you. It is the same way how you differentiate a vegetarian hindu who splits open the belly of a pregnant woman and burn the foetus in fire and a 'normal' Hindu, (probably like you)

One more thing Desh, Islam existed for 1400 years. So the statistician in you should refer the whole history to see the truth.

If you are not ideologically driven, you will realise then that every community had showed such abhorrent behaviour from time and again.

Tell me which society had not.

"So the statistician in you should refer the whole history to see the truth."

Naj: I was talking in modern context.. but dince you bring up history ....lets talkk about that too...From Chengiz Khan to Babar to Aurangzeb to Osama today... when I consider the entire body of evidence - I find an overwhelming correlation of Islam with Violence. if you could do the numbers - the number of human beings killed by people espousing Islam as the motivating ideology behind their actions is certainly the LARGEST!!

Similar extent and level of instances are hard to find in any other society.

It is great to talk in generalities but specifics speak for themselves.

After reading the history, I am convinced, that had it not been for the Sufis (and they are maligned so much by the Maulvis and Islamists these days - I have talked to enough to know how they are viewed) - the body of evidence of Violence oriented history would have been even more overwhelming! In a way, the Sufis really gave Islam a "Spiritual-Peace" backbone!

Also, it is the PET squeak of every moderate Muslim and a Secularist in India when you bring up some tough but direct questions on Islamic mess in the world to divert the issue to others! But that doesnt help and is not the answer!

I wonder where Sati practice would have been if Dayananda and Ram Mohan Roy instead of looking at the reality of inhumanness of Sati had countered the British by pointing to the Witch-burning and smacked their lips that they had "won" the debate!!

.... that is why I am asking again - BE HONEST.. and DISPASSIONATE!

The first step to bringing change is to accept that there is a NEED for change. That has been the bane of Islam. The basic ideology of "Prophet was perfect and last and so no amendments" - brings about a host of complications.

One, Saints like Guru Nanak becomes heretics and fountain-heads of non-believers and often game for blasphemy killings (look at Ahmediyas)

Second, there is no rethinking possible. Every society and group in this world and in history has peculiar issues... it is no longer possible to address all of them from the paradigm of a guy's view from a tribe that lived in a desert 1400 years back. Thats just plain nonsense.. sorry but thats the truth!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Chengiz Khan is not a muslim when he terrorized the whole world. Only after he destroyed the middleast and muslim lands did he convert to Islam and saved the muslim world from further destruction with his violent campaigns. Islam is a saving grace to the world to control his barbarian instincts.

Talking of history, the cruel acts of Christian Crusaders over a period of centuries (and which is still going on) over the Muslims is unparalleled. It was the crusader exchanges with the muslim world which brought much of civilization, wisdom, knowledge, science and medicine to the Europe which was in dark age.

What about the cutting of tongues and killing of witches and black magicians in rural India which continued much later after the British left India? Witch hunt was illegal in any part of British controlled territories. There were no witch trails in British territories after early part of 17th century much before British East India Company entered India. Sati was also illegal under British rule. Unfortunately, it is saddening to see reports about sati(widow burning) in media in modern day India.

One can be emotional, but history is history. To quote examples to conform ones beliefs is easy. “Honesty” comes from one’s personal beliefs. What’s important though is to not have bias, hatred or take sides or interpret evidence to conform one’s beliefs. One can quote thousand facts and have a Belief Overkill to prove his point. That is a distorted point of view.

Let us take some examples from the history of India.

First we have Ramayana. Rama's wife was kidnapped by a king of Lanka. Rama destroyed the whole country to save his wife. (only to abandon later). You can read chapters describing how the country was burned by Rama. Then Mahabharata, which was supposed to be a dharma yudha but in fact a pure adharma yudha, as it was fought for a land which was not legitimately theirs. Do you know how many were killed?

Then the princely state warring each other, upto 1947. Do you have a record of that? Have you counted the dead? In some places, there were suicide squads too.

You mention about Ahamadiyas. Do you know how many were killed for entering in temples in India in its long history? Do you know that even Rama has killed a shudra for practising Tapasya? Do you know that such killings happen nowadays too in states like Bihar?

(Lest misunderstood, this is not an attempt to justify the misdeeds of some of the muslims by pointing out that such things happened in other communities too. But since Islam was single handedly attacked by folks with vested-interests or by fellows who has little knowledge about it, I need to do this)

Your lack of knowledge about history shows up when you say that "Chengiskhan to Babr to ...". He was not a muslim when he waged those wars. In his later part of life, he converted to Islam and stopped his war games. You need to read (Iqra) more.

Do you know how many were killed in crusade wars? Do you know who ordered it?

Have you counted the deaths in the two world wars? Have you counted how many were killed by US so far in its few hundred years of history? Have you counted howmany were killed by Isreal so far in its exitence of few decades?

Your other sentence about Sufis also shows your utter lack of knowledge about Islam. I doubt whether any Sufi will attest to what you say. Also, I remember you wrote sometime ago that Sufis do not respect Prophet, though they mention about Islam superficially. Every Sufi, except some who are popular in west in these times, trace their sil-sila to the Prophet. Take the case of Ibn Arabi. One of the most controversial figures in Sufi. He is known as both Shaikh al-Akbar greatest of spiritual guides)and Shaikh al akfar (greatest of heretics). But whenever he refers to Prophet in his writings, he adress the Prophet as 'Our Master". I do not know whether you get his message.

The problem with you and many others is that since you - I presume - have a decent paying job and has some knowledge from here and there and a media to express it, get emboldened to say anything about anything. This is why you are writing sentences like "The basic ideology of "Prophet was perfect and last and so no amendments" - brings about a host of complications. " There were many interpretations about his deeds and sayings. And even in prayers, there are different, though slight variations.

(it is an hastily written post, so forgive any errors)

"Talking of history, the cruel acts of Christian Crusaders over a period of centuries (and which is still going on) over the Muslims is unparalleled"

Ok... so the Islamic Violence has another parallel - the Christian violence! Great! So is that supposed to be a consolation??

Talking of Chengiz Khan and the Muslim lands of mid-east - have you heard of the Parsis who existed before the land of Persia was turned into a Muslim heartland? And honestly... and very frankly asking the basic question - except from having a different belief and "Praying to Idols" which for some reason Prophet found "unacceptable" - why were those Tribes so damned and hunted for by Prophet and his men??

"What about the cutting of tongues and killing of witches and black magicians in rural India which continued much later after the British left India?"

You are comparing the one off incidents in rural India with Terrorism??? THAT was precisely what I was talking about! The closed and the UNREPENTENT and the unchanging minds of the Muslims and "secularists" in this world will NOT let peace be!! For they dont see anything wrong with the picture!!

Its like the "Cut in my Arm gets better because you have a bruise on your leg" philosophy.. Medicine be damned!!

Like I said earlier - the very occurence of Din-e-ilahi in the Muslim history was an amazing feat - given the rigidities.... .and its demise very predictable.

We could consider ourselves BLESSED if within our lifetimes we could simply create an atmosphere where the discussions of the likes that happened in Akbar's court could occur in the Open Society... with every belief and thought ON THE TABLE to be thrashed thread-bare! If ONLY this thing can be achieved and a mechanism instituted that can SUSTAIN it - I am confident that the resultant IDEA VECTOR will be a PEACEFUL one!

But that would mean taking care of our egos and antiqiuated logics and REVISIT everything!!

Personally, I have found Gita to be the most profound writing. And the central message for me was that "Be Skeptical and Question Everything" - for if Arjun had LISTENED to Krishna's first command to fight - he would have never gotten the message of Gita. The only reason the message even came out was because Arjun DID NOT BELIEVE in the Krishna OUTRIGHT or throughout the discourse UNTIL the time he was shown the "Universal Form"!

If I can treat the same book infront of me even with a MODICUM of Skepticism and disbelief that Arjun showed towards Krishna ..

...(if you read plain translations or sanskrit text you would know that there are places where he challenged Krishna on his utterings outrightly)....

....then I would have inculcated the central message of Gita in my life! And in my eyes - Quran and Bible and their teachings - also will not escape such a treatment!! So, for me EVERYTHING ... is ON THE TABLE!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

A skeptic should be skeptical about the skeptical philosophy too...so he is no more a skeptic.

One needs a poem to explain this Convoluted logic.

Well, as I said, I can conviniently quote distorted facts to have a belief overkill.

I quote facts. Not to support some one or some ideology.

That be it. Quote facts. I wouldn't try it interpret them in a way to confirm my beliefs which may have grown out of my culture.

I appreciate your Indo-centric views. That doesn't make your views FAIR to the whole world. If you come to realise that you will see the whole world differently.

Naj:

Thanks for mentioning Ibn-Al-Arabi. I will try and read up on him and get his works in English translation to benefit from them.

What I read on a simple search seems interesting:

"Many Wahabis reject the notion that Ibn Arabi was a Muslim, despite the fact that he openly accepted shahadat. Reasons for Ibn Arabi being branded a heretic were some of his statements in his books such as Fusoos Al-Hikam and Al-Ahkaam. One example is where Ibn Arabi said, "Al-`Abdu Rabbun Warrabbu `Abdun" meaning The slave (human) is the Lord/God and the Lord/God is the slave (human)." Sufis claim that such statements were always considered to be the most elevated exposition of mystical thought in Islam, and therefore unsuitable for the untrained mind.

A profound visionary capacity, coupled with a remarkable intellectual insight into human experience and a thorough comprehension of all the traditional sciences, marks out Ibn Arabi from comparable figures in Islam. It has been tempting for scholars to characterise him as a mystical philosopher, a formulation which is rather at odds with his own teachings on the limitations of philosophical thinking. He was as much at home with Qur'an and Hadith scholarship as with medieval philology and letter symbolism, philosophy, alchemy and cosmology. He could write with equal facility in prose or poetry, and utilised the polysemous ambiguity of the Arabic language to great effect. The characteristic resonances of rhymed prose (saj’), which are to be found in the Qur'an, abound in his works. "

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

I think the Mumbai blasts are a repercussion of the Gujarat riots of 2002. With the complicity of the state government, thousands of innocent Muslims were killed in the riots that followed the death of 60-odd Kar sevaks(Hindu devotees engaged in construction of a temple at the site of the demolished Babri mosque at Ayodhya) at Godhra Railway Station, Gujarat. These devotees were traveling on a train on their return journey from Ayodhya, where they’d gone to participate in the construction work of the Ram temple. Allegedly, Muslim miscreants were behind the fire that engulfed the train and charred to death the Kar sevaks.
The government of India had constituted an investigative committee to determine the cause of the fire. The committee submitted its report 4 years later. The report says that the fire was an accident and not the handiwork of wayward Muslims. There is no reason to doubt the veracity of the report. An upright retired judge of the Supreme Court of India headed the commission.
While revenge killings of innocents can never be condoned, the genocide of the Muslims that followed the death of the Kar sevaks has become all the more reprehensible after it’s been proved that the fire was an accident. Muslims in India make up 14% of the population as against 82% Hindus. Being hopelessly outnumbered, they can never take on the Hindus one on one. So what does a fanatically-inclined Muslim who nurses a grudge against the riotous Hindus do to wreak his revenge? Being numerically weak, stealth and sabotage are the only two weapons in his armour to execute his vengeance. It isn’t a coincidence that the bombs on 11th July were kept in first-class compartments, which are used predominantly by Gujarati businessmen. An overwhelming number of those killed in these blasts bear Gujarati names. There’s an unmistakable nexus between the Mumbai blasts and the Gujarat riots.
I feel that the Rath Yatra(a journey undertaken on a modern-day mechanically operated chariot) undertaken by L K Advani in 1990 was a watershed event in the communal history of India. To garner votes, the Bhartiya Janata Party(the Indian People’s Party, a pro-Hindu political outfit) needed an issue to rally the people around and build up its support-base amongst them. It resurrected the dead Babri Mosque issue. The then president of the party drove through the streets of India on a decorated, mechanical chariot whipping up people’s sentiments--Hindus’ sentiments rather. In no time, the country was polarized on communal lines. The “efforts” of L K Advani finally bore “fruit”and the Babri Mosque was demolished by Trishul-wielding(Trishul is a three-pronged assault weapon used by Lord Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction) Hindus on 06 December, 1992.
Come March 1993 and the commercial Indian city of Bombay witnessed its worst-ever terrorist attacks. A series of bomb blasts left hundreds dead. Pakistan-based Indian underworld don Dawood Ibrahim was the one who engineered the blasts. The motive? Did you think all Muslims are saints and they’d forgive the Hindus for pulling down their mosque? Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, a secret service agency on paper but a terrorist organization in effect, is ever ready to fish in troubled waters. It can easily find recruits in the galvanized ranks of Muslims who’ve been victims of Hindu bigots.

Sanjeev

Changez Khan was converted to Islam??? Wow, that's a revelation.

You guys must be kidding.

He was never converted to Islam, it was his later generation (way later after the carnage) who got converted.

Don't even include him in the history as Muslim, he did everything possible to remove the Muslims from the face of the earth.

Sanjeev:

You are embarking on a very difficult terrain:

Hindu zealots killed in Gujarat for a cause they shouldnt have..

.. but Muslims are now killing because they have a "cause"!!

----------

It is this precisely that helps condone the killings! I too believed that the Gujarat riots started off because of Godhra - but I soon realized that it was foolish!

Foolish because - in the "Revenge Paradigm" - the killing of A CANNOT be revenged by killing B! The Killing of A can only be revenged by killing the KILLER OF A - SPECIFICALLY .. not generally!

Until when will the gujarat riots be used as a boggie for every terrorist act?

If Gujarat riots could not be condoned .... so cant be these terrorist acts... and if you are wont to find a "cause" for the terrorists.. then there was enough immediate "cause" for the Gujarat killings too!

The sick mentality of your logic is something that gets us nowhere!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Some serious comments and views expressed in this EIR REVIEW, in connection with India's battle with terrorism.
http://www.larouchepub.com/eirtoc/2006/eirtoc_3329.html

Dear Desh,

Your definition of “Revenge Paradigm” is not understood by the Hindu bastard who ripped open the belly of a pregnant Muslim woman and burnt the foetus to death. Nor does it get down the throat of the Muslim scoundrel who placed the bombs in the trains in Mumbai. I wonder if the Muslims have a cause with inverted commas, why don’t we see bomb blasts in Switzerland, Brazil, Italy, et al?
We don’t condone the demolition of the Babri Mosque. We don’t condone the demolition of the original Ram temple by Babar either. Tracing the blame on a linear timescale is akin to determining which one came first—the hen or the egg?
If the “sick mentality” of my logic gets us nowhere, can your erudition show us the way, Desh?

Sanjeev

Is religion banned and/or totally separated in the above countries mentioned by Sanjeev?

"Changez Khan was converted to Islam??? Wow, that's a revelation." ~Noname

Noname, thanks for correcting the blunder. Some of his descendents converted to Islam in middleast and Budhhism in China and some remained as nomads in their original ancestral homeland.

To point Genghis Khans barbarism to show the relation between Islam and violence is pathetic on the part of people whose eyes are blinded in their beliefs.

To bring philosophy of skepticism of Baghwat Gita into the discussion of History, about historical facts is intellectual foolishness.

They also confuse Assassins of Syria with all its mythical relationship with Islam. The Marco Polo's fables on the assassins legends have all been proven false by modern studies, but the allegations continues on the premise of old, incorrect and biased history.

History is one who controls it. It is ridiculous to go tit-for-tat on who did what in the past, and I'm speaking for both sides. The current day fundamentalists in Islam are no saints and they can't go scott free by just blaming Israel and US for all of their own problems (and no, they are not all blowing people up, most fundamentalists are just affed up in heads).

But USA should take all the blame for inserting their nose on every other godamn Muslim countries. They seem to have problem living without any enemies in the world. They need to listen to what that racist sob Buchanan has been propagating for a while: get the hell out of everywhere and mind your own freaking business.

Sanjeev:

I was talking about your post where you clearly propose that the Mumbai blasts were BECAUSE of Gujarat riots in a sense of an acceptable cause-and-effect.

"I think the Mumbai blasts are a repercussion of the Gujarat riots of 2002."

That to me is sick!

The other sick and truly nauseating implication you seem to forward is the one that was made by Teesta Setalvad in her now infamous response to BBC - that "we cannot forget the Godhra train had Kar Sevaks"!!! Even kids and women?? Even if building the temple at Ayodhya was a bad thing.. was that enough of a reason in your mind to smoke a KID???

There are reasons.. and then there are alibis.. and further there are sicko statements from the blind posing as the Enlightened!!

There was no business for anyone - despite Godhra being a carnage by Muslims on Kar Sevaks or whoever - to kill in GUjarat.. PERIOD! For the death of a Hindu kid by a Muslim zealot in Godhra CANNOT be revenged (I dont subscribe to revenge - so I refer to "Revenge Paradigm") by killing another Muslim! If at all the revenge had to be taken.. the crowd should have found the people who set fire to the bogeys and shot them alive! But to even touch Another Muslim is NONSENSE!!

By the same implication - for someone who is incensed by the Gujarat carnage, he/she should go target Modi. To target another "hindu" or "Indian" is NONSENSE!!

Like you/Teesta/Rahul, I do not go about having a selective reasoning and cause-effect stories!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hindus and Muslims

religions and the duds
following religions
are interesting people.

Muslims invaded India,
raped the land,
raped the Hindu women.

converted Hindus
in millions by force
to Islam.

changed their holy
Hindu temples into
their God's mosques.

Hindus are now free
from Muslim rule in India,
but are living among Muslims.

most of whom were ealier
holy Hindus. Hindu bhangis
and Hindu chamars - the lower castes.

so the time for revenge now. Right?

convert Muslims
in millions by force
to holy Hinduism.

change all Mosques
of Muslims back
into Hindu temples.

rape all Muslim
women to have
Hindu children.

wait. were the Muslim
women of now not the
Hindu women before?

Why everybody not
become a Muslim,
a Hindu or a Christian?

or why not everybody open
his or her head, leave the
religion and become a human?

Ravi:

"All religions are evil. We do not need religions to be ethical."

The basic reason why "Religions" are evil is because they submerge you with an EGO! The same Ego that creates LUST, LOVE, ANGER etc.. is the EGO that creates religious fantaticism!

A few months back I had written on "Open Source Spirituality" (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/1551) here which not many people take seriously..

.... but if you were to look minutely at the basis of most religions - all they do is add another layer of Ego over the more normal Human Egos of MyHouse, MyMoney, Myfamily.... with religion comes - MyGuru/prophet, HisWord, HisBook, HisHonor..

... So gurus/prophets/saints have NOT helped the mankind.. they have instead ADDED to the egos..

.. so if we were bad.. we went to WORSE.. for now, instead of just fighting for My Land.. I start fighting for My Guru!!

Given that the Gurus/Prophets/Masters have not distinguished themselves well in the course of the history...

.... despite their good intentions of improving the lot of humans..

.. then what is the way out for them?

I propose in my blog that

... When Knowledge is Diseminated as an OWNER then it will inevitably lead to Increase in Egos...

... however, if the knowledge is diseminated as a CONTRIBUTOR.. then it will lead to better results.

The problem has been that all the major Gurus/prophets/masters simply "Patented" the Knowledge .. that they themselves claimed was UNIVERSAL in essence!!

The other point is that while EACH ONE of them was a heretic in his/her own temporal and societal context.. still .. each and every one of them.. kept insisting on Faith in them!!

I am convinced, notwithstanding their bonafide intentions.. Gurus/Prophets/Masters have MESSED up this mankind!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,

Reference to your post # 58, I appreciate your thoughts. You are a thinker and I agree with some of your thinking. The problems is most people do not think, especially when it becomes to religion. And if such people have power- elected officials, politicians or religious zealots with guns and bombs, havoc ensues. We are witness to this almost daily in some or the other part of the world.

So it's all religion and blind faith, and the people unified behind by all this nonsense that are the cause of unrest and loss of peace. Had we not selected a president of the USA because of the red states - the inhabitants of which are basically as religiously zealots as those in the middle-east, perhaps the world history would not be on the current course.

Your post inspired me to write a poem. I hope I'll compose it soon. Thanks.

Rahul - I wonder if you realize you sound like a rabid left winger.

Also, I'm curious to know if Shabana Azmi has ever done anything to help Muslims in India (specifically the women). I know she's big on dumb press releases about minorities. But other than armchair stuff like this, has she ever stuck her neck out, taken on the mullahs, stuff that made a difference?

Desh

If you are interested, you can start with this book: "Divine Governance of the Human Kingdom by Ibn Arabi". The book is available from http://www.fonsvitae.com

In your post to Ravi, you write: "When Knowledge is Diseminated as an OWNER then it will inevitably lead to Increase in Egos...

... however, if the knowledge is diseminated as a CONTRIBUTOR.. then it will lead to better results."

It seems to me that there is some misunderstanding here too. None of the prophets, as far as I know, have claimed that they are the owners. (May be their followers might have imposed it on them)

Jesus never said so. Prophet Mohamed did not say so. He had said repeatedly that he has brought nothing new and never claimed the ownership. Furthermore, Islam acknoweldges that there were a multitude of prophets before him. But we all know that none of them formulated certain practices of Islam, for example the prayer. If Prophet Mohamed thought the islamic form of prayer (which 'he' formulated) is the only way, and those who did not pray in this way will perish ultimately, will he acknowledge the earlier prophets, who never practised the five times parayers? what does that mean?

Nonname,

thanks for the correction. It is funny while I accuse others of ignorance, I too am caught red-handed! Somehow I still have memory of reading so somewhere.

Dear Ravi Kopra,

Apropos your post #52. You have singled out blind faith in religion and God and said any association with it should be banned. By the same token, we should also ban association with blind faith in science, economic theories, medicine, political theories, you get the drift. Blind faith is blind faith, so why discriminate. Let's see if you can find one individual without a blind faith of some kind.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Got the Drift?

Einstein always wrote
All his research papers in German –
His mother tongue.
Though he knew English so well.

But there are people who
Like to debate in a language
Two or perhaps three languages
Away from their village mother tongue.

They think in their desi bhasa.
They talk at home in their desi bhasa.
In their blood and brain is desi bhasa.
Their friends are all desi bhasa friends.

So one can communicate with
Such desi people in a foreign tongue
Up to a level: how are you today, sir?
It seems it might rain today.

Beyond that, you must be kidding
To have some serious talk with them.
When I say ‘blind’ I mean: not based on reason or evidence.
When they say ‘blind’ they mean: unwilling to see or understand.

And then they try to teach me and
Convince me with their philosophies
And ask me: “got the drift?”
“No sir, I didn’t,” I say and keep my silence.

Naj:

Thanks for the reco!

"Furthermore, Islam acknoweldges that there were a multitude of prophets before him"

What about after him? Why and how does that say about his ego? The only reason why someone will "close" the route to revision is when one believed that what he said was the FINAL word! Some Hindus and priests said the same Vedas .. little realizing that if Vedas were indeed the last word - then what was the reason for Krishna to come out with a Gita later?? There is NO LAST word!!

"f Prophet Mohamed thought the islamic form of prayer (which 'he' formulated) is the only way, and those who did not pray in this way will perish ultimately, will he acknowledge the earlier prophets, who never practised the five times parayers? what does that mean?"

If they were indeed so blessed and so correct.. then Why start a religion that wants to differentiate from theirs??? Why say that this path is the best or even better?? It is only when there is an ego!

The real test in my eyes of a greatness is how does one clear the existing cobwebs.. by drawing another line on already crowded paper to show how small the other lines are .. simply makes the paper more messy and black!!

"Nasha pilakar giraana to sabko aata hai magar;
Mazaa to tab hai jab girton ko thaam le saaki!!"

(EVeryone knows hows to get others drunk and fall over;
The real test of a person is if he can keep the drunk from falling over)

[saki means a "bar tender" for lack of a better word]

Further - what does it mean when he said that they were all prophets? Does that mean that everyone's word carries the SAME WEIGHT?? If that is true.. then what is the need of reiterating it again and claiming yourself as the fountainhead of the new truth??? And if indeed it requires a Revision.... then all those before him were "Equal" only in name!!?? And was there any criteria for who "could" be a prophet and who couldnt? Were the priests or Saints of Mecca's idol worshippers also Prophets? Why not? And who gave Muhammad the Arbitrary Right to decide who could be a Prophet and who couldnt?

Furthermore, who said that he was the last Prophet? He himself .. that He was told that he was the Prophet.. and you know that because someone else - a follower or wife Aisha put that in the verses?? hearsay upon hearsay.. upon hearsay!! And everyone else is to assume that His word was the Final!!! Get a life...

Every scripture is a hearsay as Ravi said so well.. so to consider any word in it as the Final Word is nonsense!! That was my precise point. First it was MyLand now it is My Prophet... or HisBook! The Ego layers just keep adding on!!

And really speaking.. no one can "impart" truth to anyone... truth is experienced.

Knowledge is AT BEST an approximation of the Truth!!

Knowledge is only possible when there is a dichotomy between the Observer and the Observed.. only then the Observer can claim "Knowledge" of the Observed - otherwise it is the experience!! Until the Observer BECOMES the Observed... the Truth CANNOT be witnessed.. until then ... there is always a "NOISE" in the experience and articulation of that is conveniently called Knowledge! You can impart knowledge.. but Truth is an experience that no one can provide!

So whoever ever said that He or She could show the path.. you could very easily see that they had no freaking idea of what they were saying!

For no matter which Guru or Prophet is in front of you.. if your inner conscious is not awakened through YOUR self effort.. no Guru/prophet can do anything (or Jesus, Guru Tegh Bahadur etc would not have been killed and tortured)... and if your inner conscious is awakened then the Guru/Prophet is of no use (eg; Valmiki - a Bandit who awakened by repeating "Mara Mara").

As far as the contributorship is concerned vs ownership - the real test of the Saints or Prophet's honesty to me is if anyone started a religion after him. If they did .. its pretty clear that he was a failure! That is why I consider the Rishis of Vedic times very high in my esteem.. for they were at par with the Saints or Prophets like Jesus or Guru Nanak.. but you do did not have religions starting after them. Not all were at that level.. but those who were did not leave behind a religious legacy!! That was, in my view, the first Open Source Movement in the world!

If you read Swami Vivekananda's lectures - despite his HIGH acclaim of Buddha - he considers Buddha and Jesus "second rate".. for they wanted to "Preach" people.. thinking they could "change" them.. which in his opinion is not possible or even worth it from the larger Cosmic Consciousness perspective. And I agree!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Naj:

I listen to two Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan qawwalis regularly that to me hves taught a lot and fashioned my spiritual view. To understand what I have written I invite you to listen and try an contemplate on these two:

1. Tum Ek Gorakh Dhanda Ho
2. Tere Hundeyan Sundeyan Mehbooba

In the latter one - the poet says something to this effect - (paraphrasing the poet)

"Jithe Hai Ikko ..... Othe safaat ki te Jaat ki"

Which means - If indeed there is one.. then of what use are any distinctions or castes/creeds?

Now, evaluate a Prophet or Saint.. in that light!

If there is indeed only ONE.. then what is the need for any Prophet to draw distinctions.. ANY DISTINCTIONS? Even those between Believers and Non-Believers.... even Good or Bad and Devil or Godly? "Gorakh Dhanda" says that in very clear terms.. and I cannot help but agree!!

It is amazing that all the Saints and Prophets say those lofty things but Utterly fail in their own utterances and legacies!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Divya! You never contacted me about meeting up In New York! Nevermind-next time!

To the rest:

'Amandla Awethu '

Rahul: You have immense exposure and opportunity to participate in the socio-political network of India. I generally enjoy your insight which you share here.

However, this article seems a bit contradicting within its own parameters. On July 13th you state, "I opine that the age of terror is here to stay . . ." I agree - It has been a reality especially after 9/11/01. But what brought out this age of terror!

On July 15th you were placing blame on the politicians, religious leaders, etc. painting it as a power game. But the pattern and evidence works in their favour for once. It is clearly a terrorist act committed by infiltrators.

Desh: #4 great points

Dear Ravi Kopra,

I know exactly what you meant by blind faith. This Desi's angrezi bhaSHA (english language) may be deficient in grammar, but certainly not in comprehension. The fact that most of us on this blog are desis (including yourself, unless you are a bleached white angrez using a psuedonym) and converse in her majesty the queen's tongue, shows that serious conversation is indeed possible between brown sahibs. Either you are hypocritical or supremely naive, I don't know which, but you show a certain lack of debating etiquette by attacking people instead of their points.

Distractions aside, let me illustrate a common blind faith in science people have. Let's say a child has a sore throat. Parents go to a doctor and doctor (typically in US) has a common prescription: a dose of antibiotic. Child takes it for 10 days, the cold vanishes in a few, child is dull for a few and everything is fine. What's wrong with this picture?

Typical child has a few of such infections every year. In many cases, the infections become more and more frequent and a low dose antibiotic ceases to work. The doctor is forced to prescribe stronger and stronger antibiotics and even those don't work. The germs are becoming all the more stronger and the hospital stays are becoming extremely dangerous for the sick because of this.

We hear about such things in the media, but most people still go to the same doctor for the same prescription. Why do they do it? Blind faith. These doctors are "educated" (indoctrinated is a better word) in the so-called scientific manner where every procedure and process is "scientifically" proven to work, who prescribe potent drugs which have been shown to be effective using double blind studies by the drug companies. All the fluff and sterile whitecoat is enough to convince the gullible people that what they say is the utlimate truth and what they prescribe is the panacea. Tell me how this is different from a gullible person believing in a witch doctor? Same difference :).

So you see Mr. Ravi Angrez Bleached-white Kopra, blind faith is not the exclusive domain of religious minded people. There are many ways people blindly believe in things they want to believe and it has nothing to do with logic and being logical is not the same as being right.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

PS: I am not religious by the way.

Who should we blame for this attack????????

If you actually read this line and just think calmly for a few minutes you might probably realise the depth of this question.

Few more questions come to your mind

What is that which has emboldened every terrorist to kill and maim innocent people.
???

What goes inside a terrorists mind when he sees people sitting and going on with their lives when he plants a bomb to end their life??????

Who is responsible??????? We all are responsible...............We live in a democracy where the government is a extension of us......policies are our thinking..the way we think.

Lots of people have different ideas and logic....Desh has his killing A and avenging A logic while as someone has something else.

Almost everyone unanimously bashes modi.

The saddest part in our country is that no one cares fot it. Every single incident involving a the minority community(muslims) is highlited by the media, because it sells. Because a cartoonist bloke in denmark gets a fatwa declared on him from someone in meerut who does not even know where denmark is on the map. Is this acceptable.
How long can our governments play votebank politics and continue to promote and shield what is unjust.

It is really sickening to hear that bombay blasts were a result of gujrat killings. What are people trying to imply...This is a pure threat that too very caterogic and straightforward.

terrorists have been killing hindus in Jammu & Kashmir systematically since last two decades. How many right wing hindu organizations (as per Rahul and likes) have become terrorists. The answer is none.

I would like to ask Rahul and like who use wings to describe peole and organizations. What is a right wing hindu. Or what is a hindu zealot.

Do hindus have madradssas flourishing across the country shouting 24x7 that there is only one God Allah. And all non-muslims are kafirs and need to be exterminated.

Do hindus plant bombs in busses and trains.

Have hindu terrorists infiltrated pakistan, indonesia, bangladesh etc...

Eight million hindus were thrown out of their homes in 47 and forced to migrate here in India. Why?????? because they were non-muslims.....Now after 5 decades they are again threatened with terrorism. History stands testominy to the fact that whereever muslims tend to get an overwhelming majority they systematically wipe out non-muslims. Look at the figures of Pakistan and Bangladesh post independence and now.

Hundreds of temples have been destroyed in Pakistan since 47. Who cares....But babri masjid is a black spot on indida. Comparatively Pakistan and bangladesh look all black to me. I don't support the destruction of Babri masjid or any masjid anywhere.

All muslims are not terrorists......but all terrorists are muslims. This is a warning sign not for non muslims but for the muslim community, because of the antihuman thinking of a certain percentage the entire community is blacklisted. Most muslims i know are like myself good old folks leading a life..striving for the better. But a lot many of them have a different outlook towards life and world..they get easily swayed by religious politics and brainwashing.

What is it that makes a politician use some incident in some other country(denmark) to further his political gains. Why do muslims listen to such nonsense. The question is what comes first country, ethics, humanity or religion in the hierarchy of things.??? If we have thousands of muslims endorsing such fatwa statements the answer is clear...and if don't have any politician critising such acts the clarity becomes more transparent. Means ""chalta hai"" such things are acceptable.

Who is responsible and makes us accept such nonsense.

perhaps we all need to think....and strive for peace and a better life.

Amit

Amit,

Very interesting analysis and in total agreement with your conclusion "perhaps we all need to think....and strive for peace and a better life."

Desh,

What appears sick to you seems like simple common sense to me. The fact that I believe that Mumbai blasts wouldn’t have occurred if Gujarat riots hadn’t happened does NOT mean that I am condoning the blasts. How could you even think that I would stoop so low? Every time I hear about a killing, I feel a part of myself has died. I am a “Hindu”, but when I imagine and feel myself to be a Muslim, I experience a tremendous paradigm shift. All of a sudden, the entire scenario falls in perspective. I can feel how a 140-million strong Muslim feels in a 820-million strong Hindu India.
I tell you what Desh, we need to “feel” more than we “think”. The world would be a much better place if we all began to FEEL just a little bit more. Harmony isn’t about eliminating the differences; it’s about reconciling the differences.

Sanjeev

I was called a terrorist yesterday, but when I came out of jail, many people embraced me, including my enemies, and that is what I normally tell other people who say those who are struggling for liberation in their country are terrorists. I tell them that I was also a terrorist yesterday, but, today, I am admired by the very people who said I was one.

NELSON MANDELA,

Kamini,

Very nice quote. I think you'll agree its not pertinent here. Mandela was fighting for the rights of his own people to rule their own country.

Here we are discussing people who are not fighting for liberating their country but at the behest of minders, in another country, who want to bring down this country. There's a big difference.

One fact I will not dispute is that the world is still struggling to come with a comprehensive definition for terrorism and terrorists.

"What appears sick to you seems like simple common sense to me. The fact that I believe that Mumbai blasts wouldn’t have occurred if Gujarat riots hadn’t happened"

Sanjeev: And what was the motivation for 1993 blasts??

I am saying there is NO reason for any terrorist attack EXCEPT the sick mind of an individual or a group!! PERIOD!!

Like Amit Tikkoo says very rightly - if your quid-pro-quo theories were to indeed be true then by now we should have a bomb blast daily in a Muslim area by Kashmiri Pandits! Have you heard any such an act? Do you think they were treated any better than pieces of furniture? The Muslims across the country are still doing fine..

.. btw, here is blog post on my site (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2888) -

... what I found crazy was that three Muslim organizations were paying the Attorney to fight the case for the Accused in 1993... and where did the money come from? The Muslim community at large! Why? Because they IDENTIFIED with them!!

Where the F was Shabana Azmi or Rahul or Teesta when an entire community in an area identifies with those folks????

A lot of people in Pakistan and elsewhere tell us that Kashmir is the "cause" of all this.... to me such people are first imbecile and second, they freaking insult my intelligence!! Kashmir is a SYMPTOM not a cause!! If it wasnt Kashmir it could have been Junagadh or Hyderabad or something else! And if the Muslim/Paki heart did beat so loudly for Kashmir then the state of those in Gilgit would be better.... the portion that Pak sold off to China would never have been!

It is imperative to see whether what you quickly categorising in a simple cause-and-effect relation is actually that?

THERE IS NO and CANNOT BE ANY reason for terrorism!

And Why does the Muslim commmunity always require to come out maim and kill folks to get rid of their anger??/

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"I tell you what Desh, we need to “feel” more than we “think”. "

Sanjeev:

I have said this earlier somewhere here once - I have seen and felt the strife of muslims at least once when I personally visited at least 60 villages across UP while doing a research project. We went from Madrasa to Madrasa and Mosques to talk and find out the causes and ways to better the socio-economic situation. What I found there made me sad and frustrated!

The Muslim community's mindset in the rural areas was consistently by the Maulvis and Madrasa leaders - where they would not give education the role it deserves... I saw the absolute frustration and resolve of the youth who wanted to study in the "normal schools" but could not.. who wanted to earn like any other kid but could not because their community leaders would seal their fate by sending them to madrasa!

Because they had not much education, the Muslim community by and large was made of artisans... there was no improvement in their lot because they could not get out of that rut!

The Wakfs and the community properties that could be used to better their lot was being held by some individuals by fraud! I havent seen any Wakf Board reps who were straight and honest!

The Youth was frustrated but some gave a ray of hope! There was one such guy in his late 20's who had started a school for Muslim boys and girls... and names it after Maryam to emphasise that girls were especially welcome. It took him years to get some girls for his school!

He had his own curriculum .. ..where he would have books that would declare Ram, Krishna, Buddha etc as "Prophets" and so he was trying hard to inculcate a sense of secularism in the kids! As he said - "I want them to come out as Indians, and not Muslims from my school!"

What I saw was ostenibly impressions and thoughts gathered over a short period of time... but of significant value for me! Because it brought out the ABSOLUTE HYPOCRISY of the Seculars and the Muslim leaders so starkly!!

To every kid I met - Shiv Sena or the Bajrang were NOT a threat.. it was the neighborhood IMAM or MAULVI! Yet, none of these idiots of the "Secular" combine ever go and fight ON BEHALF of those kids against those wretched group of priests! Because that doesnt look sexy!

Sanjeev - a lot has to be done... but the need is always to do an HONEST action.. not one that is being propogated as the sexiest way out for secularism to live!

I will end with a "case study" during that tour.

There was this Sikh family in a village near Saharanpur who lived next to a Muslim family. The village had a Madrasa and a Gurudawara school. We first talked to this lady bathing her son.

"Do your kids study?"

oh yes!

"Where? in the Gurudwara school?"

No, in the town nearby.

"Oh in the government school there"

What nonsense! Is there any education in the Govt schools? We send them to private ones!

"What about your daughters"

Same education.

Now we went to the Muslim family..

"Do you kids study?"
The son does.

"And the daughter"
No.

"Where does he study"

In the madrasa in the nearby town.

"Why not in the normal school?"
because it doesnt have Deeni Taleem. Our Maulvi told us that we shouldnt send our kids over to those schools!

SIdenote: UP Govt. has a program where they started a special board called "Arabi-Farsi Board" where the schools curriculum includes Deeni Taleem as well as normal subjects. The schools that implement such programs are paid the teachers' salaries! YET most Muslims REJECT such a board!!

Do you want to guess why? Because the Maulvi doesnt want his bread and butter giving Madrasa to be closed! Which in turn is controlled by the larger Madaris like Dar-ul-uloom - which are controlled by the political minded Muslim leaders and religious leaders!

Folks like Syed Shahbuddin and Imam Bukhari are the ones who strangle the lives of kids in the rural and poor areas DAILY!!! WHo cares!!

Because it is not a Natural "Cause-and-Effect" to think that someone from a Minorities OWN community could be responsible for its mess.. we need to find and EQUAL AND OPPOSITE CAUSE!! The truth be damned!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Well Desh, as I said in my first comment at # 47, what I have seen, heard and read from news reports, 1993 Mumbai blasts were the direct fallout of the demolition of the Babri mosque. Dawood Ibrahim, aided and abetted by Pakistan’s ISI, engineered those blasts. Mosque pull-down takes place in Dec 1992. Blasts happen in March 1993. As far as I know there was no bomb blast in Mumbai prior to 1993. Now in making these connections, I am not in any way trying to condone anything by establishing a cause-and-effect relationship. I am just trying to trace the roots of terrorism. A numerically weak adversary resorts to stealth to “settle scores” with his numerically strong “enemy”.

Having said that, I am fully aware that Hindus in Bangladesh were persecuted horribly in the wake of the demolition of the mosque in India. Tasleema Nasreen has brought out the atrocities committed on hapless Hindus in her book. She was exiled and a fatwa was issued on her head. She has become Bangladesh’s Salman Rushdie. In contrast, Teesta Setalvad is a heroine in India! I also have no doubt that if Muslims were in the majority in India, our country would be an Islamic state. India is secular because of the Hindus.
In Bangladesh, where Hindus’ numeric proportion is much smaller than the proportion of Muslims in India, we haven’t seen Hindu jehadis blowing themselves up as suicide bombers, despite such grave atrocities committed on them. What does all this mean? The Hindu culture is a passive one. For hundreds of years, all sorts of invaders—the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Moghuls--have come here, looted and plundered us. We’ve been welcoming everyone with open arms. Today India bears no grudge to anyone. If the Hindus had a Bin Laden, they’d launch an attack on the United Kingdom to avenge 200 years of subjugation!

Historical wrongs can not be righted by force. It would’ve been ideal if the Muslims had surrendered to the Hindus the Babri mosque site to atone for the sins of an unjust king. They did not. Every community is equally paranoid of each other. But two wrongs do not make a right. Pulling it down by force, the campaign being spearheaded by a political party struggling to revive its political fortunes, was appalling.

Today we say terror is here to stay. Did we ever use to say it in 1990?

Sanjeev

"Today we say terror is here to stay. Did we ever use to say it in 1990?"

If your point of reference was India - you did!!

Hello all,
Whenever any tragic incidents in the form of blast due to terrorism take place,v all r sad,off-course!!But we all forget,that the people who undertake these acts are human-like us all!(I am a psychologist 2 go into psyche of man!!)
Wat v all need 2 reason within ourselves is y these "so-called terrorist" actually get ready to all this!!Arent they afraid 2 c human-blood like us all??
The seeds of hatred is not sown in 1 day!!
These incidents were 2 come,if v c,the events in couple of yrs.when communal violence take place in Godhra or any city or town as such ,be it kashmir,Mumbai always had 2 face the brunt!!
When Politicians give speeches giving rise to communal-riots,its here that the seeds of terrorism is sown.And the children of these victims become terorist in future!
Cant v ,as citizens of India,stop these vote-gaining politicians frm giving such speeches,yatras etc!!Censors scan what public shud watch on Tv ,dont v need such rules 2 watch wat speeches these politicians make??
Politicians shud b held responsible for anything happening in our country!!Its high time that our Constitution make ammendments wherein politicians trying 2 gain vote in the name of religion shud not b allowed to stand 4 elections!
Else, v hav no right to call ourselves democratic!
regards,
Soumya

It is very clear that whenever a call comes from the clerics of Islam....That islam is in danger.....It traverses continents and not only countries. Most muslims are brought up on the ethics that religion comes first and country and humanity last. We have terrorists from sudan and afghanistan fighting in kashmir. What do they have in common with the kashmiries....nothing.

Indian subcontinent has created two Islamic countries, and India right now supports a muslim population which is larger than both the countries. Eventhough india is a democracy it does not have uniform civil code. There are different laws for muslims, it means the community already as a fence around itself. Our politics has already become slave to the community votebank. No one from the ruling party issued a official statement against the declaration of fatwa for a danish journalist, who has got nothing to do with our country.

The terrorist who killed 9 unarmed airforce officers in cold blood(apart from other kilings) in kashmir is heading a political party now and is considered an apostle of peace.

The terrorist who killed and tortured 100+ kashmiri pandits, and acknowledged on national television in an interview that he lost count after 41.He even recalled the first few murders and said he killed them because they were pandits and he was told to do so. Even he has not been convicted so far. Can you imagine any hindu killing 100 muslims in the first place......and that too in a islamic country......and then left alive....would go too far. Such a thing cannot even be dreamt. People have no idea of the horrific life that hindus have been leading in bangladesh and kashmir.

I am a kashmiri pandit and have been exiled from the land of my ancestors where we had been living since 4000 years. The sad part is i am one among hundreds of thousands. Why have we been driven out, why were we hounded like dogs and killed in cold blood. Things are obvious...there is a threshold level for every geography in this world. When the muslim populace of that geography crosses this threshold the geography becomes an islamic state. Does anyone refute this fact????
India is slowly inching towards one more threshold. Muslims are not responsible for this but we are responsible. Instead of creating vote banks we need to create an awareness for right and wrong. Acceptable and not acceptable.
Even our politicians who thrive on muslim vote banks do not want muslim community to grow and prosper. They just want them to multiply and continue to live in misery and create more votes. For if they prosper get education, get jobs, get a good life they will cease to solve their purpose...voting....Such politicians are responsible....such political process, ethos, thinking, psyche is responsible for all this. We still cannot impose a ban on SIMI which controls hundreds of madrassas and been linked to almost every terrorist bombing in india.

Pseudo secularists, people who think like Rahul and likes. Hey Rahul don't get me wrong i am not targetting you or anything....but your knowledge of things is little and your thinking warped towards the wrong side. Perhaps some people who have lived a goody goody life never get to trespass on they grey side of things.

Our country has people like arundhati roy who for the sake of publicity do anything. She has written scores of articles about gujrat riots....most of which was her imagination...about kashmir...and defends jeelani, the accused in parliment attack. The problem is, she has no knowledge about kashmir or godhra. She just has a good command over english. And she knows that it sells...bashing modi sells....branding people as hindu zealots sells....right wing hindutava sells...But these very people will never have enough courage to come up and say that issuing a fatwa against a Danish citizen is not only wrong....hell it does not bear any relevance. Simply saying we got nothing to do with it.

Anyways it is good to see that minds like Desh, Dara, Sanjeev are thinking and sad to see people like Rahul in a reverie.

regards and peace to all.

Amit

"1993 Mumbai blasts were the direct fallout of the demolition of the Babri mosque. Dawood Ibrahim, aided and abetted by Pakistan’s ISI, engineered those blasts."

In that case, Sanjeev - the GUjarat riots were a CAUSED by the 1993 blasts, Godhra and the terrorist activities in the country!

If event A caused event B then it stands to reason that Event B would have been the direct cause of event C!! Unless of course, only one group of people have the RIGHT to be offended!! Just because a person is "boxed" as a Majority does not mean that he/she will not have any emotions or should lay flat while he/she is raped and killed!!

And Soumya, if you are so wont to do the psycho-analysis of the terrorist then please let me when you get the time to do the psycho-analysis of the "Hindu zealot" who killed Muslims during the Gujarat riots! For, if the terrorist is a HUMAN BEING.. so is MODI!

These selective Psycho-analysis theories are a bunch of hog-wash and they stand in the way of an honest analysis of the situation!!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

"Most muslims are brought up on the ethics that religion comes first and country and humanity last. "

Here is the statistical evidence. "Nation vs Religion: Differences between Muslims and Christians" (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2770)

Two nation theory was not an abberation - it was the norm! And its not kashmir.. its this two nation theory that is the CAUSE of all problems between India and Pak.

Why is two nation theory a norm? In Islamic lifestyle the "Deeni Taleem" has to be interwoven with the "Duniyavi Taleem". Which means that the "Deen" (or religious) cannot be separated from the "Duniyavi" (Mundane). What is true of education is also true of politics.

Towards that end, it becomes a "duty" of every believer to make sure that they can do the Deeni dictats in the Duniyavi tasks or actions. That is not a possibility in a non-Islamic framework. For example, Islamic banking or banning of music or arts or special dressing of women (an issue in France).... so if there is enough of a populace (threshold as Amit calls it), then it is "kosher" for the populace to declare its freedom and fashion the nation's Duniyavi laws and order along Deeni framework!

And if the Islamic populace is in minority, then there is a struggle between the Shariat dictat and the available infrastructure. That is when a 'struggle" is launched... where killing or hurting the other is not out-of-bounds within the religious dictats!

Its a brilliant concept if I had any aspirations to become a Prophet.

First declare that all you revered before me were also reverable but I am the final!

WHo said that.

Well God told that to me when I was in a cave alone.

And btw, what I am telling to you now is the final word of God.
So if there is any dispute between what others before me have said and what I say....

refer to this text alone.. .

for as I said at the outset this is the final word!

God has now gone dormant and silent.. so no more revisions... hence the Barriers to Entry are unsurmountable!

Also, it is my dictat that none of you can lead a life sans the religious duties.

For it is important that you remember God.....

as I have told you to do ...

which is.. given in the text I just gave you..

as having been told to me by God himself .. in a cave.. alone!!

=========
Michael Porter will be proud of such a strategy.. with Unsurmountable Barriers to Entry and insurance of NO affects of the Environment. So the only person anyone can refer to in times of dilemma is ME and how I LED MY LIFE!

How is that for Ego fulfillment?

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

people killing people

people fighting...
people killing...

blowing up building...
blowing up brains...

blowing up trains...
blasting their bombs...

they're fighting for
Hinduism, Christianity and Islam...

people, don't kill people...
kill Hinduism, Christianity and Islam...

"kill Hinduism, Christianity and Islam..."

Kill Reverence First;
Faith next;

So reason could live.

Kill all the Gurus and Prophets;
So everyone could be enlightened.

Truth doesnt reside in Borrowed light;
let each human being become Light itself!

Lets be Joyful for once;
and not just have Knowledge of Joy.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

I'm a Muslim First

he is so called
an educated dude
with some bombastic degree
from a school in Karachi.

In star bucks I bought
him coffee with latte
and sat to talk many things:

well, tell me, I asked
why is religion important to you?
"well, err..yes, I tell you,
because I was born a Muslim."

"so I do what Muslims do -
my deen is first, everything else
is second, third, four of fifth..."

"I'm a Muslim first
my father was a Muslim first
and his father was a Muslim first..."

and if your father's father's father
a devout Hindu wasn't converted to Islam
by brutal force by followers of Islam?

would you then not be a devout Hindu,
doing what Hindus do, worshipping idols
reading Vedas, doing puja and holi?

and suppose you were born a Christian,
would you not be worshipping Virgin Mary
who being a virgin gave birth to Father's son?

is only God not absolute? I asked.
"yes, he is," he answered.
"no idols, no Shivas, no son of God either,
only Mohammad, may God's mercy be upon him."

was Mohammad God? I asked
if not, he wasn't absolute.
so why follow him?

"err.. he was the last prophet.
my father followed him, I follow him.
and if my fore fathers' father was a Hindu
who cares! that was long long in the past."

he got up and left.
it was prayer time.
the fourth in a row of
five day after day.

Where Gods need help!

They broke Ram's Temple;
So I need to break their mosque.
Ram needs help.
The one who is a savior;
needs our help.

They caricatured Mohammad;
Peace Be Upon Him.
So muhammad needs help;
The one who is the most Perfect of all
on this earth;
Needs Peace from us!

Gods were supposed to be saviors;
Now they need to be saved!
From us.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Kamini - Don't get all passive aggressive on me, girl. I gave you my email address on a public forum, and you chose to respond on the public forum giving me your email address! I wasn't able to figure that out and moreover felt the ball was in your court. Whatever.

Great discussion guys. Hope some of it penetrates into the author's thick left wing head. Sorry to rub it in, but celebrities must be held to a higher standard, imo.

Dear Desh,

Brilliant! Very well said. That's my take on Islam and Muhammad as well. He was the best strategist of all times. He was basically a profiteer in every respect of the word and it reflects in the Quoran and hadiths. He built the best crony system in the world as well. He was supposed to be the best man ever lived, the people closest to him were the next best and then the people around those people and so on.

As I have said in the past, muslims need our sympathy because the veil of islamic ignorance is very powerful indeed. Let's hope wisdom will prevail and one day they will begin to see Quoran for what it is.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Desh,

Good posts and good questions - so many of them actually. Obviosuly, I will not be able to answer all the questions. But asking these questions will help us to move forward.

"If they were indeed so blessed and so correct.. then Why start a religion that wants to differentiate from theirs??? Why say that this path is the best or even better?? It is only when there is an ego!"

-No, it is not. It is the compassion. When one reaches a level and become part of something else, one will feel the compassion and a duty. You may not recognise that now. It could be your ego that may be preventing you to see this.

"Furthermore, who said that he was the last Prophet? He himself "

-Who said Budha was enlightened? It is Budha himself. That is not an expression of ego. But now if you ask me why he is considered the last prophet, to be frank, I have no answer. I will not dismiss this as pure nonsense or a mere show of egotism either as I know that men of depth have agreed to it. Yes, that does not mean that I am accepting it 'blindly' but I think this is a matter to be pursued further.

"And really speaking.. no one can "impart" truth to anyone... truth is experienced."

- True. But I understand that there are powerful minds that are capable of influencing others and change their way of life.

"So whoever ever said that He or She could show the path.. you could very easily see that they had no freaking idea of what they were saying!"

- Totally disagree. I have excelled in one subject and I have used certain methodology to reach that. If I can get a comprehensive view of the methodology used and the forces behind, then I may do a mapping of it for the benefit of others.

"what does it mean when he said that they were all prophets? Does that mean that everyone's word carries the SAME WEIGHT?? If that is true.. then what is the need of reiterating it again and claiming yourself as the fountainhead of the new truth???"

- There is a hierarchy and ontology. And never claimed a new truth was revealed. Budha said that everybody can 'get' enlightened but nobody else is treated with same reverence as he is.

"The real test in my eyes of a greatness is how does one clear the existing cobwebs.. by drawing another line on already crowded paper to show how small the other lines are .. simply makes the paper more messy and black!!"

- There is another possibility to make the paper neat and whiter. What is that?

"First it was MyLand now it is My Prophet... or HisBook! The Ego layers just keep adding on!!"

- True. In order to progress, all these layers have to be discarded. Like the raft that has to be left behind when one reaches the other shore. But remember you discard the raft only after reaching the shore and not before. And it is the duty of the traveler to know when is the time to do it.

"If you read Swami Vivekananda's lectures - despite his HIGH acclaim of Buddha - he considers Buddha and Jesus "second rate".. for they wanted to "Preach" people.. thinking they could "change" them.. which in his opinion is not possible or even worth it from the larger Cosmic Consciousness perspective. And I agree!"

- I disagree and it is not true that no one can influence others. Budha after enlightenment traveled to meet his former colleagues, with whom he practiced austerity earlier but abandoned him after he rejected austere practices. It is recorded that one of them - I can't remember the name - after Budha's discourse, became an enlightened soul. There are other such stories of people who had tryst with Budha. However, it is to be noted that it is essential such people had such a disposition before they experience it . Yet it is also known that even kindling of such fire can be initiated by someone else. It is also known that you get what what you were asking.

""Jithe Hai Ikko ..... Othe safaat ki te Jaat ki"

Which means - If indeed there is one.. then of what use are any distinctions or castes/creeds"

- I will quote from another of your post, which was about Ibn Arabi. "Sufis claim that such statements were always considered to be the most elevated exposition of mystical thought in Islam, and therefore unsuitable for the untrained mind” It is about the confusion which will impede the progress and getting with familiar with certain kind of knowledge for which one was not prepared.

I appreciate the questions and most probably I have not satisfied you with my ramblings. But I think it will be better if you probe yourself to see where from these questions arise in your mind. Is it becoz of some prejudice, like this has to be wrong since what I understood earlier does not agree with it. Or is it because of mere intellectual curiosity? Or is it because of some unfortunate personal trauma you had to go thru?

Anyway, this should not be taken as a covert attempt to dilute the way your express your questions or 'opposition' about your perceptions. Best wishes.

Hi All
Interesting discussion.
I just wish to add that Islam is not just a religion but also a political movement and a very agressive one too. Nehru either did not know or did not realize that and aggreed to annex Kashmir with India. India Government is fighting a losing battle. Sooner or later they will have to deal with this issue. Sooner the better. It is the Kashmir problem which is the root cause of terrorism in India.
Morris

A seemingly bizarre but practical and possible solution to the Hindu-Muslim fighting problem in India:

As Muslims do want to live in peace in India with Hindus, they should be sent to Pakistan and Bangladesh to live in peace with their brethren. All Hindus, and Sikhs in Pakistan and Bangladesh should be welcome to India to live with their brethren.

It happened during the partition of India in 1947. It can happen now peacefully. It was because of the idiotic ideology of people like Gandhi and Nehru that many Muslims did not leave India and now India is paying the price.

What good are Muslims to India anyway, if they they cut the hands of those who feed them. If their religion is more important to them than their nationality to live their lives peacefully, as a recent survey worldwide shows it is, India would want them to live in peace and happiness and would like to ask them to leave the country. If Pakistan and Bangladesh, their brethren, to do accept them, they can go to Saudi Arabia, Turkey or other countries of their ancestors, roam the deserts with their caravans of camels and goats and do whatever they like to do. Perhaps they are missing their mother lands and need a change. They have lived in India for few hundred years. Is enough not enough already? Is there no time to go back home?

Each family should be given free transportation and a week's ration of food, and left in a buffer zone area in tents along the India-Pakistan and India-Bangladesh borders for the host countries to take them in. Perhaps UN can also play some humanitarian role in this process as it is doing all over the world.

What is wrong with this solution? It will be peace once for all for all Hindu and Muslims. No train blasts. No bombing of Masjids. No bombing of buildings and killing of thousands of innocent people. And no Babri, no Rama-Ayodhya nonsense.

Desh,

missed one point.

"What about after him? Why and how does that say about his ego? The only reason why someone will "close" the route to revision is when one believed that what he said was the FINAL word"

It is not closed. Ibn Arabi is one example. There are many rituals added in to which did not exist at his time. There will be some who say such actions are banned. But that is becoz, as you say, they use it to enhance their ego.

ITS DEFINATELY THE TERRIORIST & PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT BEHIND IT.

D-I sent you an e-mail! Obviously technology ain't working for us! :).
No matter, I'll be back in NYC in September-and this time I promise to let you shout at me!!!(kidding)

take it easy

K

Hi Ravi,

I wonder how a bizarre solution can be also practical and possible. Actually I feel Pakistan should never have been created. If Hindus and Muslims were to remain at daggers drawn for ever, why would we experience such bonhomie between the people of the two countries during cricket matches? Indian visitors to Pakistan in 2004 during the cricket series were treated like VIPs. Shopkeepers in Lahore refused to take money from Indians for the things they bought. There was such goodwill and outpouring of emotions, it was unbelievable that these two countries could have gone to war thrice.

Obviously there is something more to the Indo-Pak relations than meets the eye. Amisha Patel got letters from Pakistan telling her that some people had named their new-born daughters Sakeena, so overwhelmed were they by the role Amisha played in Gaddar. The only source of entertainment for Pakistanis is Indian cinema. They’re simply crazy about our film stars. I think your admittedly bizarre suggestion is an insult to patriotic actors/writers like Feroze Khan and Javed Akhtar. Feroze Khan said in the press conference in Pakistan that he was proud to be an Indian. Pakistan was created on the ostensible ground that Muslims in India won’t have equal rights; that they’d be oppressed by the Hindus. No such thing has happened. In fact, Muslims in Pak were killing each other. (The shias, the sunnis, the muhajirs--the 1947 migrants from India, they still haven’t been accepted at large by Pak society--the balochees, et al). In India we have a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister, a perfect example of India’s secular credentials, Feroze Khan said.

No wonder Feroze Khan got banned in Pakistan! Musharaf has ordained that he should never be allowed to set foot in Pakistan.

And Javed Akhtar. Do you know why he was denied visa by Pak authorities? Because he had composed the lyrics ”Doodh mangoge to kheer denge, Kashmir mangoge to cheer denge”!!

A happy and proud Indian Muslim is a slap in the face of Pakistan. However Pakistan welcomes with open arms L K Advani, a right-winger Hindu, because someone like Advani validates the two-nation theory!

I pray to God to restore democracy in Pakistan. We need someone like Benazir Bhutto at the helm of affairs in Pak. She’s promised in an interview to an Indian channel that she’d dismantle the terrorist-training camps in Pak if she comes to power there. At least she acknowledges that these camps exist. Musharaf denies having them at all.

Sanjeev

Desh

60 villages are too little sampling to conclude anything in a country like India. While I agree that there is a dire need for modern education in the community, (it should also be told that there are much work going on this direction) to say that that is the only problem the community is facing, is nothing but a gross manipulation. To say that muslims do not face threat from RSS, Shiv sena and Modi et al is, simply put, a total lie. However, I am not saying this threat is only problem the community is facing.

It is similar to saying that India conducted nuclear test only to reveal to the world that Pakistan has it! As if until then, the world did not know that! If that was the purpose, why should India conduct five tests on two different days? Why, was one blast not enough to raise the ‘testosterone’ to the required level? How did they calculate exactly five blasts are necessary to raise the hormone level?

We are innocent; you see, it is because of the neighbor we are acting in this way!

Furthermore, you seem to have a tendency to speak to those who will tell you what you wanted to hear. Earlier you said that you had talked enough to know how sufis are viewed while the truth is that the vast majority of muslims everywhere in the world revere them. And again, now in the villages, you met exactly those people, who tell you what exactly you wanted to hear!!

Is there a real threat from shiv sena, RSS etc? Let us see some examples. I am depending on various media, commission reports to present the facts here

i)Muslims in Modi’s Gujarat:

“Just as USA has taken advantage of 9/11 for invading Afghanistan and Iraq, the BJP has taken full advantage of the anti Muslim feelings making use of the stereotype, distorting history, generating feeling of victimhood among the Hindus and providing divisive politics of hatred and animosity.”

The ruling party is following simultaneous policy of exclusion and inclusion - exclusion of Muslims and Christians and producing solidarity among the Hindus, choosing selectively when and where different formula is to be pursued

Today there prevails a psychology of polarization in almost all spheres of life. Muslims are ghettoized, separated and segregated. Mixed schooling is made impossible with most of schools declaring their inability to guarantee security of Muslim students.

There is also economic boycott. A silent campaign to keep them out. Often, young Muslim boys are picked up and kept in custody for an indefinite time. As a result Muslims live in constant fear.

Often called "Gandhi's Gujarat" the state presents a unique example of bitter communalism, polarization of communities with an atmosphere of hatred and insecurity, especially for the minority communities

How have Muslims reacted? Positively by opening educational institutions providing modern education to Muslim boys and girls. Some have quickly adjusted to the new reality. At the same time, they seem to display their identity in a more vigorous way than before - beards, long shirts and a round cap.”

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Religion-communalism/2006/plight-worsen.htm

ii) Encounter killings: at RSS head quarters

“The alleged encounter death of four terrorists in Ahmedabad on 15 June 2004, who according to the police were on a mission to assassinate the Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, struck headlines even as political circles were rife with comments on Vajpayee’s demand for Modi’s ouster. It is well known that in recent years, since the Post-Godhra carnage Gujarat has become a site for ‘encounter’ deaths where the same motive has been attributed to the slain ‘terrorists’

Full article at http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Religion-communalism/2004/ahmedabad-encounter.htm

iii) Terrorist attach at RSS head quarters

The nation awoke on June 01, 2006 hearing the shocking news of an attempted attack on the RSS headquarters building. It was a respite that the news of police foiling the attempt too came along.

The news of attempted attack on the Head Quarters of the RSS reportedly by 'Fidayeen', Pak based terrorist group, sent a spine chilling fear in the minds of millions of peace loving people in the country. We all know very well, the potential of such a happening to ignite a trail of tragic clashes among the communities. The peace loving masses heaved a sigh of relief as the leaders of every community promptly condemned the heinous act and appealed to the masses to maintain peace, and peace did prevail.

Questions about Police version

When the police had prior information about possible attack on RSS Head Quarters and the police were prepared, as stated by the Commissioner of Police (CP), to handle possible attack, why did they allow the attackers to go close to the RSS HQ? Why did the Police not stop them at first sight?

2. We hear from the residents, that the police had a kind of rehearsal to the 'encounter' few days back on the same spot. Police even fired on air on the occasion, they claim. And when the actual encounter took place, these residents said, they first thought that it was yet another demonstration. Why did the police take a demo few days ago?

3. The CP has said, "when the ambassador car with red beacon atop moved towards RSS HQ, one of the constables in the Tata Sumo casually asked the young occupants about their intentions. Rattled by the inquiry the militants opened fire on the police vehicle even as they tried to get away." For the constable to ask casually, either he must have brought his car (the police vehicle) side by side to the terrorist vehicle or he (the constable) come by foot close to terrorist vehicle (and asked them). In either case the constable must have been exposed to the terrorist attack at close quarter. How did the constable escape unhurt? The narration of the incident doesn't have any detail to clarify this.

4. There is no eyewitness to the whole happening. The encounter took place according to the police at 4.15 AM. The bodies of the assailants were removed even before the press reporters (who were the first people other than the Police), reached the spot, close to 5.00 AM. Why this hurry?

5. Day one media report says, Deputy Commissioner Mr Prabhat Kumar was in the patrolling team and he smelled foul and started tailing it in their unmarked blue Tata Sumo. Why did the CP not bring him (Mr P Kumar) in his (CP) narration of the encounter? Why did CP hide the DCP?

6. Another report says that the patrolling police that tailed the ambassador at one point "presumed the car might have gone towards Ayachit mandir the police stopped the chase for a while. However when the police jeep came back to the same place during their routine patrol, they noticed the same car in a small alley between Lakdipul and Gajanand Mandir towards the eastern gate of the RSS Head Quarters. As the point where the police missed the ambassador car and the place where they saw them again are the same small alley, do the police mean to say that the attackers were waiting over there until then?

8. The exchange of fire took place for twenty minutes, it was reported. Can anyone explain how the police disabled the terrorists from using the dozen hand grenades and the 360 rounds of bullets?

9. That the terrorists had 12 hand grenade, 360 rounds of bullets, 5.6 Kgs of highly explosive material which was later stated to be RDX, and they battled for twenty minutes 'hopelessly' not using any of them, is a narration that fails to convince common sense.

10. It was reported that the police recovered from the terrorists' vehicle a sealed case containing 12 hand grenades. The terrorists coming on a deadly mission carrying their munitions in sealed cases does not comply the logic of terrorist attack. They did not even open them when they were fighting for 20 minutes in a losing battle makes the narration all the more unconvincing.

12. The reported information that the police recovered wet underwear and soaked bathing soap from the white ambassador car suggests that they could not have been 'terrorists' on a mission involving their very life.

From: http://countercurrents.org/comm-report130706.htm

iii) Mumbai riots in 1993 (occurred before the blasts):

In December 1992 - January 1993, Mumbai set a record of sorts for itself in the matter of communal madness. In the riots that followed the destruction of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, more than a thousand people were killed. Unlike previous riots, violence was dispersed and it spread to relatively newly urbanised areas. Arson, killings and the destruction of property occurred in distinctively different kinds of areas. Violence affected not only slums but also apartment blocks and chawls. What was common to all the areas was the systematic targeting of Muslims, who comprised 17 per cent of the city’s population.

There was migration on a noticeable scale by Muslims out of Mumbai during the 1993 riots. According to police accounts, more than two lakh people fled the city. Economic necessity caused a large section of this population to return within the next year. While some people went back to their old occupations, others switched jobs and started working in places where they felt safer. Many of the Muslim families that fled Central Mumbai were of migrant workers who returned to their villages in Uttar Pradesh. After their initial fears subsided, male members of these families returned to Mumbai. They did not think it safe to bring their entire families back. The city came to be divided into two categories - Muslim and non-Muslim.

The riots did not merely create physical boundaries; they also resulted in the conceptualisation of the `other’, which in this case was the Muslim population. Migration of Hindus from Muslim-dominated areas did take place, but this was on a small scale when compared with Muslims who moved out of localities where they were in a minority. The consolidation of communities and the number of migrants have not been recorded by any government department. Such an exercise is rendered difficult by the fact that the migration from Muslim minority areas was not a mass movement of people from one locality to another. It occurred over a period of time and is discernible only through a close examination of the city’s population distribution.
The impact of this migration is clear in Central Mumbai and Dharavi, which have long formed the empirical basis of popular speculation about the riots. At the time of the riots, many Muslims, who lived in certain pockets in Hindu-majority areas, moved to locales such as Nagpada, Mohammed Ali Road, Bhendi Bazar and Millat Nagar in Central Mumbai and stayed there. Over the years, Central Mumbai has become a Muslim-dominated area. The insecurity and fear among Muslim residents led them to add extra floors to their houses and build workshops on rooftops and in multi-storey buildings. Social worker and lawyer Yasmin Ali Shaikh says: "Slowly changes have followed in Nagpada. The identification of people on the basis of religion set in after the riots. On the face of it Hindus and Muslims continue to live together for the simple reason that, in their everyday business, they are intrinsically linked to each other. However, the feeling of insecurity and bitterness between them is obvious any time tension rises anywhere in India." Before the riots, the adjoining Madanpura locality was dominated by Gujarati Hindus who ran small businesses. Now most of the businesses have been purchased by Muslims, many of whom earned money working in West Asia.
Dharavi, which houses a million people, is called Asia’s largest slum. Muslims constitute 40 per cent of Dharavi’s population. Located in the industrial belt of Mumbai, Dharavi is a centre of small-scale entrepreneurial activity, particularly garment manufacturing, leather processing, waste disposal, pottery and suitcase manufacturing. Mumbai is plagued by an acute housing shortage, and it is not unusual to find doctors, lawyers, clerks and members of political parties living in this area. In the 1993 riots, Tamils, Dalits and members of the Shiv Sena fought against Muslims in Dharavi.
http://india.eu.org/247.html

Where did the threat originate, at least partially? Here is what Golwalker, the RSS man says:
In this book, he (Golwalker) rejects the notions of Indian nationhood, India as a Nation in the making. He rejects the idea that all the citizens will be equal. He goes on to harp the notions of nationhood borrowed from Hitler's Nazi movement. He rejects that India is a secular nation and posits that it is a Hindu Rashtra. He rejects the territorial-political concept of nationhood and puts forward the concept of cultural nationalism, which was the foundation of Nazi ideology. His admiration of Hitler's ideology and politics is the running thread of the book and he takes inspiration from the massive holocaust which decimated millions of people in Germany. He uses this as a shield to propagate his political ideology. It is this ideology which formed the base of communal common sense amongst a section of the population. "German national pride has now become the topic of the day. To keep up purity of the nation and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races, the Jews. National pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into a united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by." (We…, 1938, p.37)
In the Sangh circles this book is regarded as their Gita. The implications for Indian minorities are presented here in a forthright manner. Today the swayamsevaks brought up on this Gita, do believe in all this but the language of expression is being made more polished so that the poison is coated with honey and administered with ease. Golwalkar goes on to assert, "From the standpoint sanctioned by the experience of shrewd nations, the non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and revere Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of Hindu nation i.e. they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ingratitude towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must cease to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, for less any preferential treatment, not even the citizen's rights”

Naj:

reading your posts I felt two things:

1. you contemplated on the points I had honestly
2. you wrote your reply "because you had to write something".

Honestly, I do not agree with your answers completely, but they are useful.

When I wrote those posts they were written in my skepticism which I value. So your answers were valuable.

Sanjeev:

regarding your assertion on Benazir: read this post on my blog: http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2751

All I can say is - Dil ke Bahlane ko Ghalib ye Khayal achha hai!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hi Desh,

I know Benazir Bhutto is unlikely--actually she can not--to keep her promise of dismantling terrorist infrastructure in Pak if she regains power there. Still I feel she'd be less of a risk to India and the rest of the world than a military dictator like Mushy.

Anyway I read your blog, and appreciate it. But I wish the font size were a little bigger. :)

Sanjeev

Dear Naj,

There is no doubt in my mind that some elements of RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal are ultra nationalists and fanatic. Though there have been some manifestations of this intolerance in the form of Gujrat massacre, and there can no excuse for that kind of atrocity, on the whole India is a tolerant nation. I agree that there is a certain bias against muslims among hindus that reflects in a general economic boycott. For example, people are reluctant to rent their property to a muslim or to hire one. The reasons mainly historical and cultural, but I certainly don't condone this phenomenon. Bias based on religion, language, color, caste is common in India (and elsewhere too) and it is unfortunate.

Many people show corruption and incidents of booth capturing, generally bad choice of political candidates as the proof that India is a sham democracy. I disagree. There are obviously all these problems, but almost every election and subsequent change of government has been peaceful and the losers have accepted the verdict. Bad performers have been rejected umpteen number of times by the Indian people. A large segment of the population does participate in the elections. If these factors do not contribute to the fact that India is a democracy, I don't know what will. Because of this factor, the political parties like BJP have a tough time pushing a overtly communal agenda. So your fear of Golwalkar's influence on the present generation of political leaders is largely misplaced. Just as you can point to his thesis and say that political leaders follow it and create a fear psychosis, the other side can do the same and point to so many verses in Quoran that explicitly urge its followers to kill and otherwise subjugate the idolators.

You must also remember that the popularity of BJP has something to do with communal and casteist politics played by Congress. History is full of examples when the general populace is fed up of biased politics of a certain party, they swing the other way and vote for the lesser evil. This is true of India as well. Even today Congress and the parties on the left adopt casteist policies. For many in India to be secular means to be anti hindu. That's the perception anyway.

Best way for Muslims to overcome this problem is assimilation of the populace rather than alienation. Assertion of individuality by growing beards, wearing clothes that are foreign to India will increase this subtle hostility. I am not advocating that muslims should start smearing tilak on their foreheads, or wearing mangalasutras. Muslims need to get more engaged in the social and cultural events, as they undoubtedly used to in the past. This will help reduce the xenophobia and ghettoisation that has unfortunately taken place. The interesting point here is that most of what is called Muslim identity in India is largely based on "Indian" culture rather than Arabic culture. This is obviously so because most of the muslims in India are converts and there are very few who can say they have direct lineage to Arabs. So it is futile and in fact dangerous for Muslims of India, in the name of assertion of identity, to adopt a culture and practice that is totally alien to India.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Naj:

"It is similar to saying that India conducted nuclear test only to reveal to the world that Pakistan has it! As if until then, the world did not know that!"

The main trigger was absolutely the Pakistani proliferation that was going on. I have checked that with various Army people and that is the sense they have. It was pretty clear in the years leading up to those blasts that there would be no reaction from the US when Pakistanis get the nukes from china and missiles from North Korea or the Pakis give Nukes to NK blatantly! It was obvious to most Indians. Subsequent events and disclosures confirmed these "allegations" in very uncertain terms!

That was the real reason.

Now about the 5 blasts: If I was Vajpayee or the Army Chief - I would obviously say - look guys we would be hounded after these blasts. So as much as this action has a "message" effect.. it should also serve our purpose! So whatever the scientists need to do should be finished in one go.

Nothing wrong or unusual about it .. .isit?

Only Rip Van Winkles of the 80's and 90's would refute the rationale of the Indian blasts!

"60 villages are too little sampling to conclude anything in a country like India."

Well I agree. But Naj, most of the secular folks who talk unabashedly around... have not ostensibly visited even 6! And our main purpose was not loitering around.. but specifically to meet the Minority population.

As for the RSS, it was an organization that grew out of the misplaced actions of Gandhi and COngress to placate a certain section of Muslims. Though RSS had a "beef" for a different reason - this very section of Muslims have been - in my belief - responsible for single-handedly destroying the socio-economic framework of the Muslim population in South Asia!!

This was the other of my conclusions during the days I walked around those madrassas... Indian Muslims do NOT have positive role models! If at all it is sportsmen or film stars... but the top officials and educationists - simply left for Pakistan .... and that void exists largely today too!!

I believe that "Discrimination" and "Perception" are closely related. So the only way to solve the Discrimimation in the LONG TERM - not that it is Right or Wrong but thats how it is - is to work on Perception of the community. That is only possible when the members of the community work in a way to give a chance to at least one generation to prosper. Do you think if the community came out with higher education - not through reservations but in a true competition sense - and participated in the same way as the other communities do - like Parsis and Sikhs.. then the perception would change? Heck yes!! Because right now - for good or bad - the perception is that here is a community that is poor and prejudiced as well shackled in centuries old religious beliefs that they swear by even today. GIven what is going on in the world of terror - as a bearded man in a cave in Afghanistan fights US and the West and India.. it seems pretty clear to a section of Hindus taht they are in threat!!

The worst thing is that even the Muslims have not refuted in a real sense the PanIslamic identity!! I have been living in the US for last 7-8 years - and I have seen that almost 90% of the Indian Muslims I have met either identify themselves with Pakistan outrightly or with Pakistani institutions! Yes, there are filial ties yet that partition could not break - but from a Nationalists viewpoint - that creates an issue.. specially during the time when such blasts occur!!

The answer is not simple. But it would have to start from the progress of the Muslim population.

I am convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that India cannot and will not progress until the Muslims in India TRULY progress!!

THAT is what the Muslims and Secularists need to work on! And when they concentrate on Shiv Sena et al.. they miss this basic and most important agenda!

I have a way of taking revenge that I have endorsed inmy life and it goes like this:

Instead of thinking or working on Hurting your adversary, it is better to work on yourself and grow. Grow so tall that your adversary is dwarfed in front of you. THAT will be a humuliation that your adversary would not be able to stand or ignore.. he cannot keep it in his heart or tell anyone!! The pain of your adversary is truly unbearable! But all the while your actions have been positive. You dont hurt him directly but work on your ownself!!

I hope you get "my drift" here.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh, Your last para was Awesome! You can be a great inspiration. Always found you've the qualities of a leader and a good politician. Good politician? Are u wondering...Isn't that an Oxymoron? Generally speaking yes I would say, but there are some really good ones. Naam desh rehthe vho videsh mein..ye Baath kabhi samjah na aayi putar tumhari. Shayed apne putro ke liye tum apne watan ko chod gaye. Kabhi yaad nahi aathi? Kabhi dil nahi rotha apne watan ke liye? Tum jaise sache Desh premivho ko desh mein hona chahiye, but I know you're there mostly for your kids.

Cheers!

harley:

Thanks for your good words, man!!

desh ki yaad to aati hai... but I did not leave India for any reason.. it just happened. Hopefully, my going back will also just happen. Tab tak apni karambhoomi mein hi apni janambhoomi ko yaad kiya kartein hain! :-)

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh, vho aise hee mazak kartha hoon main, but serious things I mean it. So, if I've said anything good it means I've seen it and I do appreciate it. No, of course all those big decisions are yours and so many factors are imp, but ek aisa feeling zarror aaya, ke aadmi solid hai...shayed yeha hona tha.

Karmabhoomi? shayed tum apni zindagi mein acha kaam kar rahe vho, appreciate that. Good on you! Lekin Vho aur karmabhoomi? Darindo se bhari so hai vho bhoomi, us bhoomi ki humukmath tho dekho? uske Raaja ko tho dekho? Vho bhoomi karmabhoomi? Hur jageh egoistic self absorbed darinde milenge vahan tumhe, who think only states exist and the rest are nothing. I remember your words in of your posts long time back. It was...They deserve this karmic baggage. I coudln't agree more. It's a Universal law Desh! Action and Reaction. What goes comes around. The world is not going to keep quiet. Ek bandook nikalega tho doosra khamoosh nahi baitega, vho bhi apni nikalega. Jiski bandook Bhari Vho Sikander. Ye Basic principle hai human nature aur human affairs ka. One just has to follow up history. Yeha koi Sant Ramdas ya Ramakrishna Paramhansa jaise politicians nahi baite hai. And, honestly I think Sant ko hona bhi nahi chahiye aisi duniya ka leader. Jaise Praja Vaisa Raja. Fair call.

Cheers!

Thanks Sanjeev!! I am trying to upgrade the site to the next version of drupal.. I aint a very technically minded guy.. so hopefully once the site upgrades things will be better!!

Cheers,
desh
drishtikone.com

Hi Dara,

I beg to differ. My quote was in the context of the discussion-as to 'who is to blame'. My point is, and I reiterate again, that the root cuase of terrorism in todays world has to be addressed. Mandela fought his whole life for the freedom of his people and the rights to live as free people in their own land. How is this different from what the Palestinians are fighting for? Or the IRA, or the acivtist factions that want a free J & K? This is not about Bin Laden v The US, this is about the Muslim people being allowed to live in their own land, as a free people, to practice their relgion freely. The comments I read above, disturb me. Why should the Muslim people, who have been persecuted in Bosnia, India and other parts of the world, not be able to live freely without prejudice or persecution? I want to post this article, its a bit long, but I think its very much in the context of why we are living with terrorism today.

Best K

This is about Israel, not anti-semitism

Not to speak out against this injustice would not only be wrong. It would ignore the threat it poses to us all

Ken Livingstone
Friday March 4, 2005
The Guardian

Racism is a uniquely reactionary ideology, used to justify the greatest crimes in history - the slave trade, the extermination of all original inhabitants of the Caribbean, the elimination of every native inhabitant of Tasmania, apartheid. The Holocaust was the ultimate, "industrialised" expression of racist barbarity.
Racism serves as the cutting edge of the most reactionary movements. An ideology that starts by declaring one human being inferior to another is the slope whose end is at Auschwitz. That is why I detest racism.

Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No serious commentator has argued that my comments to an Evening Standard reporter outside City Hall last month were anti-semitic. So I am glad that Henry Grunwald, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, accepted on these pages that "Ken is sincere when he states that he regards the Holocaust as the worst crime of the last century".
The contribution of Jewish people to human civilisation and culture is unexcelled and extraordinary. You only have to think of giants such as Einstein, Freud and Marx to realise that human civilisation would be unrecognisably diminished without the achievements of the Jewish people. The same goes for the Jewish contribution to London today.

As mayor, I have pressed for police action over anti-semitic attacks at the highest level, and my administration has backed a series of initiatives of importance to the Jewish community, including hosting the Anne Frank exhibition at City Hall and measures to ensure the go-ahead for the north London eruv.

Throughout the 1970s, I worked happily with the Board of Deputies in campaigns against the National Front. Problems began when, as leader of the Greater London Council, I rejected the board's request that I should fund only Jewish organisations that it approved of. The Board of Deputies was unhappy that I funded Jewish organisations campaigning for gay rights and others that disagreed with policies of the Israeli governmen.

Relations with the board took a dramatic turn for the worse when I opposed Israel's illegal invasion of Lebanon, culminating in the massacres at the Palestinian camps of Sabra and Shatila. The board also opposed my involvement in the successful campaign in 1982 to convince the Labour party to recognise the PLO as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people.

The fundamental issue on which we differ, as Henry Grunwald knows, is not anti-semitism - which my administration has fought tooth and nail - but the policies of successive Israeli governments.

To avoid manufactured misunderstandings, the policies of Israeli governments are not analogous to Nazism. They do not aim at the systematic extermination of the Palestinian people, in the way Nazism sought the annihilation of the Jews.

Israel's expansion has included ethnic cleansing. Palestinians who had lived in that land for centuries were driven out by systematic violence and terror aimed at ethnically cleansing what became a large part of the Israeli state. The methods of groups like the Irgun and the Stern gang were the same as those of the Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic: to drive out people by terror.

Today the Israeli government continues seizures of Palestinian land for settlements, military incursions into surrounding countries and denial of the right of Palestinians expelled by terror to return. Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, is a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office. Israel's own Kahan commission found that Sharon shared responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

Sharon continues to organise terror. More than three times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed in the present conflict. There are more than 7,000 Palestinians in Israel's jails.

To obscure these truths, those around Israel's present government have resorted to demonisation. Initial targets were Palestinians, and have now become Muslims. Take the Middle East Media Research Institute, run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, which poses as a source of objective information but in reality selectively translates material from Arabic and presents Muslims and Arabs in the worst possible light.

Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe, implying that the most serious upsurge of hatred and discrimination is against Jews.

All racist and anti-semitic attacks must be stamped out. However, the reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims - and they are the primary targets of the extreme right. For 20 years Israeli governments have attempted to portray anyone who forcefully criticises the policies of Israel as anti-semitic. The truth is the opposite: the same universal human values that recognise the Holocaust as the greatest racist crime of the 20th century require condemnation of the policies of successive Israeli governments - not on the absurd grounds that they are Nazi or equivalent to the Holocaust, but because ethnic cleansing, discrimination and terror are immoral.

They are also fuelling anger and violence across the world. For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners.

· Ken Livingstone is the London mayor

Desh

Good to know that you did not refute tne quotes.

I agree with you that the best option for the community is to raise by itself against all odds by its own actions. But a community that has members from Presidents to Scientists to menial workers, each strata will face its own problem in its own way. "Every happy family is alike but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own." So is the case here.

Yet you talk about discrimination and perception. You see even here at IB, we can see people who advise Muslims not to grow beards, as it is not only foreign to India but will prevent the assimilation. You can see the beginning point of what Golwaker says in this argument.

I could not grasp how beards became alien to Indian culture, which is, needless to say, very tolerant. As I understand, almost all of our rishies and ranyasees had/have beards. See the depth of prejudice or even enmity that blinds them from seeing this fact.

Yes, there is a bit difference in the way the rishies and muslimgs grow beards. Then, even that difference is seen as 'foreign' and is depicted as an evidence of no assimilation. And you see, the way to avoid the 'unfortuante' ghettoisation is to do away with beards and clothes which are alein to India.

Again, it is you, the neighbor who need to change. Do you want to assimilate in the way I say ? Or you will face ghettoisation.

This is a part of the reality muslims face.

Naj:

I understand the point about ghettoisation. I was part of the "majority" community in India but am among the "minority" in the US.

It is very interesting that until you are not "perceived" as a threat - your difference is termed EXOTIC... but when you are then it is "ALIEN". It is true everywhere.

I am sure if a pandit with all his finery was to live in a Muslim dominated areas - he would feel the same as a muslim feels in general areas. In fact, most non-Muslims do feel that way in Islamic countries as they cannot practice their religion. Similarly Kashmiri Pandits were thrown out of Kashmir for similar reasons - that they did not conform to the Islamic fatwas of the Jehadis of convert or flee.

Naj, it is a reality now - whether you agree or not.. whether we like it or not.. that the world-wide perception of Muslims is of a community that is PanIslamic in nature without any loyalties to the country of their residence and one that cannot be trusted since anyone could be a potential terrorist "sleeper cell".

It is unfortunate but that is a "Perception" reality.

Now, all you and I can do is work on how to change it. To refute that Muslims are not this or that wouldnt and really hasnt changed much of perception. In fact if at all the perceptions over the years have hardened. Such blasts and the way the accused carried themselves hardly helps to do away with that perception!

After that research study, I used to say to my colleagues in the study that if the idea was to improve a certain community then it would not be a bad idea for the leaders of a community to - borrowing from Business parlance - to Benchmark Successful communities and use their success secrets. The Sahranpur Business Case - true in every aspect - was my attempt to bring out those "differences".

Talking of beards, It is also noteworthy that there was a time in 1980's when a bearded Sikh was dreaded and looked upon with suspicion. As the spectre and the events of Khalistani terrorism subsided and finished, the beard of a Sikh was no longer a threat to anyone! Otherwise in those days, the "advise" to Sikhs were no different than to Muslims!

So, is it the beard? No, I would argue that it is the symbolism that people ATTACH to a terrorist who is a RELIGIOUS FANATIC. So, anyone who displays the same characteristics - howsoever benignly - would bring out a hostile vein in the other person. That is why Sikhs were killed post 9-11 in NY.

It is the same way if a politician wears Saffron. I can bet you that the media will hound him like anything. In fact I am convinced - as I read Swami Vivekananda - that a person like him is cannot even come in this age from India. An intellectual giant as he was, he said his mind in a lot of things and often that wasn't always "politcally correct". For the dwarfs that exist in the Indian "intellectual and political" circles today, such political incorrectness is too much to handle!!

As much as you feel frustrated, believe me, even a person who is proud of his "Hindu" heritage does the same way - as is obvious in this thread itself. Because it has become difficult for an ordinary Hindu to protest any irregularity that is committed to others in his community.

Personally, I loathe conversions and for good reason. Because if indeed there is One, then whom so you convert to "whom"? That is why I place a person who talks of God and Conversion in the same breath at the lowest rung of spiritual ladder (eg Pope John Paul). But as soon as I say anything along those lines - the cries of "Saffron Brigade" /"Hindu Fascist" etc - just like Rahul's contention of "Rabid Right Wing Journalist" - start.. and soon instead of hearing my argument.. they hear to their own minds!!

Just the way Uma Bharatis of this world wrong an ordinary Muslim; the Rahuls, Imam Bukharis, Teestas and Arundhatis of this world wrong an ordinary Hindu. That is why I believe that both these two groups DESERVE EACH OTHER - for they both are BLIND, stunted in thought, and prone to rhetoric over substance. They are so smart that they have made their judgment over what the person has to say EVEN before he/she starts to speak just by their appearance or what they might have believed - addressing it in their own limited contexts!!

You and I face the same problems. There are many things that are incorrect with the way Spirituality is NOW perceived in every religion. It is upto us to question and question at every step.... everything!! I dont lose an opportunity to question every basic belief that the temple priests dish out while talking to them... because I truly feel they just dont get it!! Like I was discussing with a friend of mine recently, in the last few years on this journey, I have had to put EVERYTHING On the table to revisit... EVERYTHING!! I expect the same from everyone else.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh..Bahut acha likhat vho Babuva! Tumar Post padne mein Maza Aavat hai. Depth hai. I really liked Naj's points too about Religion though. The way he discussed before is the Way to discuss man.

Table Peh hum aur tum...discussion, so nice. Vaise Table peh aur bhi kuch kar sakthe hai, patha hai tumhe? LOL! Just kidding! It can be exhilarating sometimes just to place yourself in other person's boots and feel how he/she feels, and then come back into your boots.

Last few posts here at IB have been Insightful.

Dear Desh,

I couldn't have put it better myself. I am in awe of your thinking and writing abilities sir.

Dear Naj,

I think Desh has very effectively answered your post, so I will only add about the muslim identity. The pan islamic identity could be a strength in normal times, but these are not normal times. In general muslims like to identify themselves first with their religion and then the region they belong to. To be politically correct, this is perfectly acceptable, and in fact it is so in the US, as people are addressed as "African American", "Indian American" or "Chinese American". So this society does in fact expect to maintain their cultural and social uniqueness and yet prosper.

Unfortunately that's not the case in India. I remember way-back-when (probably in late 80s) there was this debate between Syed Shahabuddin and M J Akbar. Former is (was?) a politician from UP (not the current one with the same name from Bihar) and the latter a well known journalist. Shahabuddin argued in favor of naming his news paper "Muslim Indian" and M J Akbar (secular journalist who was associated with Congress for a while) argued otherwise. I don't remember the gist of the article, but the point to be noted is that in the Indian political millieu, at least for appearances, patriotism ranks higher than religious or cultural affiliations.

To take the example of christians in India, while pursuing their agenda with equal or more vigor, they have adapted to the local conditions extremely well. This is done to such an extent that all their prayers are in local language, they call their churches, "devalaya" and their saints, "Sants". Bible is translated as "Satya Veda". Some christians even take Hindu names. The point of all this is they do their work with subtlety and without the in-your-face distinctiveness. That's why it is so rare to see hindu christian riots. There have been some problems created by some hindu zealots, but they are exceptions rather than rules.

I don't think it is your point to say that Arabic is native to India. Yet, Quoran is entirely taught in Arabic in Indian mosques as everywhere else. I don't think the chadar is native to India either. In fact you admitted yourself in an earlier post that due to the backlash against muslims, they have chosen to show defiance by growing beards round caps and long dresses. My question to you is, is this defiance practical? It is like shouting om namah shivaya in the middle of a riot in a muslim community. In a free country one should be able to do so, but your principles should be subjected to practical considerations such as personal safety and the safety of the community. If you think otherwise, that's fine by me.

I am glad you are participating on IB and hope you will continue to do so and contribute to our understanding of the muslim community.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Naj, Desh and Ravi
You guys are brilliant. Enjoyed reading this discussion. I cannot present my thinking the way you are able to. But let me say what I feel.
Islam in my mind is a political movement also like communism and its followers' loyalty is to this movement first. This presents a problem wherever they are in miniority. If they are majority they would more likely change the country to an Islamic repubic. Then there is no conflict because loyalty to the state is also loyalty to the religion.
To me this makes sense because Prophet Mohammed was also a politician and in Islam there is no seperation of religion and politics.
Am I wrong?
Morris

Dear Desh,

I would like to connect using linkedin. Could you please send me an invite from Linkedin to visionmanravi-public at yahoo.com

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Hi Kamini,

I think we are actually in agreement in our opinions on how to deal with terrorism in general and also, that the best counter is to examine, in all honesty, the basic cause and get to the root of it. In this instance, however, the focus is on the train blasts. Do you agree that these blasts were acts of terror carried out by terrorists? If so, then we think alike. If not, how would you classify the blasts and the perpetrators?

My point with regard to this thread is that these blasts cannot be equated with Mandela's struggle. The perpetrators here, were and are acting at the behest of people who are neither Indians or even in India. Besides just terror, their not taking responsibility is cowardice. That is why I think the Mandela quote is not very relevant here.

To keep this discussion short, for the time being, I'll give you my opinion on the roots of the separtist cause in Kashmir a little later in the day.

Desh,

The only solution to the global islamic problems has to come from islam itself. The religion has been resistant to change for a long time and needs it deperately now. More and more people should question the wrong dictats

1) Muslims need to speak against polygamy
2) Talak Talak Talak and get out is not acceptable and is wrong.
3) We cannot have barbaric laws of stoning people, whipping women and cutting the hands, gouging the eyes. Civilization has progressed and this is not acceptable.
4) Rape victims cannot be married to the accused this is grossly not acceptable
5) This world belongs equaly to all who are born on it muslims and non muslims(kafirs).
6) Fatwas are not acceptable we have high courts and supreme courts to do the job.
7) Women have the same rights as men. Different laws and rules for them are not acceptable. They have equal righ to education.

I want Rahul Bose to stand up and shout these points and say this is not acceptable in his country.

Religion is a way of life and most ways of life have changd over centuries. Look at our own religion, look at christianity, look at buddhism. Humanity is under a constant process of change which is called evolution. Anything resistant to change is hampering evolution and the general progress of humanity.

regards to all

Amit

Kamini,

It is really unfortunate to see you equating terrorists to freedom fighters. And who told you muslims are persecuted in bosnia and india or anywhere. Your knowledge of things is little and lacks depth. I cannot tell you all in here but please try to read as much as you can about bosnia and kashmir. Ans persecution of muslims is india is the joke of the century.

Do you know that in countries like Saudi arabia you can be arrested for carrying a bible or Gita in public. You can be arrested for eating in public in the month of ramzan.

Do you know close to 1 million non muslims were massacared by the turkish fanatists in 1915.
Do you know who was Amin Al husseni??

Do you know how many non-muslims have vanished in bangladesh since last two decades???

Anyways, terrorists in J&K have killed thousands...torturing them to death...often cutting their tongues, genetials and head. Are you telling me that they are freedom fighters.......You have insulted the souls of the soldiers whose bodies were sent back in bits and pieces by these very terrorists. What freedom fighters.....what freedom do they want....J&K state government is dominated by kashmiri muslims although the state comprises of six different districts. Do you know everything is cheaper in kashmir than rest of india. Do you know that there are no rickshaw pullers in kashmir and no one sleeps on the road. Do you know you cannot buy property in kashmir eventhough you might be a citizen of soverign india. What freedom do they want...Are they being exploited in someway.....if you don't know...try to get info but don't equate barbaric terrorists with nelson mandela. Do you know that J&K has been contributing zilch to the national GDP.

kamini the problem is that in our country people don't care Since you don't care you don't want to know or get indepth knowledge. Your comprehension of anything is based upon 5 minutes of CNN or NDTV.

DO you know that for the first 3,100 years of recorded history—from 2500 B.C. to 600 A.D.—there isn’t a single chronicled episode of Arabs leaving Arabia to conquer, plunder, or terrorize any nation. There isn’t even a record of them terrorizing themselves or of them imposing tyrannies. They were respected and accepted. But then at the dawn of the Islamic Era—622 A.D.—everything changes. What happened?
How could so many good intentions of one Holy Prophet be so “misunderstood” by his followers, and by all others in the world?

Perhaps you need to know

regards

Amit

I beleive in one thing 1 wrong doesn't justify another, and instead of debating on how to counter the menance of terrorism , which beleive is a parallel industry for some, we are arguing about Islam and what not and at no point pondering over the fact about how to plug the loopholes to prevent such recurrances one can see in USA after 9/11 there was no major incident so why in India these things keep on recurring, don't blame this on porous borders , if that is the same make them airtight.
The issue is not who killed whom in 1900 or in 1980 or in Gujrat. The issue is how do we secure ourselves with the menace of corruption within the country and hostile neighbours on all sides, we have to think of a sureshot way of safegaurding our interests.

Dear Ispita,

You make a good point: we can't do wrong to fix a wrong. Having said that, your solution to the problem, that's fixing the borders or whatever else, is only addressing the symptom. We have deep routed problems in both communities (hindus and muslims in the Indian context) and they have to be debated. Some could make the point that let's fix our own problems rather than pointing fingers at each other. That's valid too, but inter community dialogue is necessary for resolving misunderstandings and to develop a long lasting solution. People outside your own community have a different perspective on things and that perspective could be valuable for resolving the anachronisms that plague a religion like Islam (and to a lesser extent Hinduism, in my opinion anyway).

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Dear Amit,

If you read my posts, you will see that from the beginning of this discussion (and previous posts), I have made the point that there are two perspectives taken when looking at what we commonly understand as terorism. The same person (a suicide bomber for example) to some is seen as a freedom fighter, and to others a terrorist.

'And who told you muslims are persecuted in bosnia and india or anywhere'.

Are you serious? Where have you been for the last ten years. Heard of Milosevic? Heard of ethnic cleansing?

'Bosnia-Hercegovina is still recovering from the bloody inter-ethnic war of 1992-95. Around 250,000 people died in the conflict between Bosnian Muslims, Croats and Serbs. Almost 8,000 Muslims were killed by Bosnian Serbs at Srebrenica in 1995 - Europe's worst atrocity since World War II. Many Muslims were displaced, as were members of other communities. A peacekeeping force remains in the country, whose frontiers have long been considered the western borders of the Islamic faith in Europe.

I don't watch NDTV, because I find alot of the media coverage in India immature and vacuous.

'kamini the problem is that in our country people don't care'.

What are you talking about? I'm a Hindu and I live in India. I will not and cannot accept any unprovoked attack on civilians/innocent women and children. This applies to the Gujarat killings, as a Hindu I was disgusted at what happened as were many other HIndus. I have made my thoughts known regarding Israel, and what happened in Bosnia was disgusting.

You need to read into what I am saying. I am trying to make the point that the world we live in today, has an elemnet of violent intolerance to it. Whether that is religious intolerance, cultural/political/national, and if we are to combat terrorism, we have to begin to understand why people are motivated to carry out acts of violence or self secrifice with such vehemence. We need to stop pointing the finger at Muslims.

I compare Mandela with terrorists, because as in the quote I posted, he was referred to a terrorist (why do you think he was imprisoned for 25 years). He led an activtist branch of the ANC. However, he makes the point that in the battle for freedom he was called a terrorist by some and a freedom fighter by others.

It is important to understand history and the connotations of colonialism, invasion and historical persecution, but I'm more interested in how today in the 21st Century, and why, we have such strong philosophies attached to identity, land, heritage etc. Palestinians are being driven by exactly the same sentimment that the ANC was driven by-FREEDOM!

'How could so many good intentions of one Holy Prophet be so “misunderstood” by his followers, and by all others in the world?'

Get off this bandwagon, Not all Muslism are terrorists, not all Hindus are terrorists or Christians. Fundamentalism is hijacked by a few and utilised to mobilse the many.

You accuse me of not caring about what? Of course I care. I care that we have a country (US), that has created more anti-muslim sentiment in the last ten years through his ridiculous 'axis of evil' philosophy and dictatorial approach to other cultures and countries-and politically polarised the world into the have v the have nots, the muslims v the christians, the west v the east. I care that inncoent women and children in Lebanon are being killed, because Israel has held onto its historical persecution and used this as an argument to murder people in the name of 'the war on terror'. I care that people are persecuted because of their religion, skin colour, way of life. So please do not patronise me and accuse of not caring. I'm trying as many are today, to see how a situation that has got way out of hand can be combatted in a peaceful, logical manner, so that no more inncoent people will die.

Best
Kamini

Dear Amit,

Please resd this Article (Women in Action). Its very interesting.

K

http://www.isiswomen.org/pub/wia/wia102/mediacarnage.htm

Dear Amit,

Please read this Article (Women in Action). Its very interesting.

K

http://www.isiswomen.org/pub/wia/wia102/mediacarnage.htm

Muslim myths busted

Here are six popular beliefs about Indian Muslims. Over the years, these beliefs have acquired a mythical quality. More and more people believe these without feeling any need for verification.

And here is a reality check. A special focus of the first CNN IBN-HT State of the Nation Poll was the mood of the Indian Muslims. Some questions were posed to all the 15,141 respondents in this survey carried out by the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS). Besides, a series of special questions were asked to the 1510 Muslim respondents who fell within the random sample of the national electorate in this survey. Of these Muslims, 46 per cent were women, 64 per cent from rural areas and only 42 per cent hailed from the north Indian Hindi heartland states.

1. Myth of Muslim Population

According to the latest Census, Muslims are 13.4 per cent of the Indian population. But this is not what people think. When asked to guess the proportion of Muslim population, only one in six persons came anywhere close to the right answer. Three-fourths of the people overestimated the Muslim population, and by a big margin. A majority of the people interviewed gave a figure well above double the real population of the Muslims. Educated people are no different from the uneducated in this respect. Muslims themselves share this myth even more than non-Muslims and overestimate their own population.

2. Myth of Extra-territorial Loyalty

This myth is not spoken about, but hinted at and whispered: The Indian Muslims are not quite loyal to this country. In this survey, all but two per cent of the Muslims said they were 'proud' or 'very proud' of being an Indian. A clear majority of Muslims said they are first an Indian and then a Muslim.

3. Myth of Islam and Democracy

Thanks to the US propaganda, this is now a global myth: Islam is not compatible with democracy. Our survey once again proves what many studies all over the world have demonstrated again and again. Three-fourth of Muslims, about the same proportion as the Hindus, are firm in their rejection of any non-democratic alternatives.

4. Myth of Muslim Personal Law

Personal Law, they say is top on the Muslim mind; they would defend it at any cost. But when asked about the most important problem for the Indian Muslims, 69 per cent chose livelihood issues as compared to only 4 per centwho talked about religious matters. An overwhelming majority of Muslims, more women than men, disapprove of the practice of polygamy as well as 'triple talaq'.

5. Myth of Muslim Appeasement

Muslims, we are told, are a pampered lot. The only trouble, of course, is that this is not what it appears to the Muslims. One out of every five Muslims interviewed in this survey said they had personally faced discrimination on religious grounds. The more educated and better-off Muslims experienced greater discrimination. Muslims experience more discrimination in educational and employment than in politics or matter religious.

6. Myth of Irreparable Hindu-Muslim Rift

This is a secular myth. Many people believed after the Gujarat massacre that this incident caused an irreparable rift between Hindus and Muslims. The survey brings some happy news from all over the country. Only 13 per cent Muslims feel that the rift cannot be bridged, about the same feel that it made no difference in the first place. The largest number of Muslims feel Gujarat did cause serious tensions, but now things are getting back to normal.

http://www.ibnlive.com/article.php?id=4380§ion_id=3

See this too:

http://www.ibnlive.com/features/rday/stateofthenation/graph4.php

What about the Myths which lot of muslims have, especially the fundies, Who is going to Bust them?

Kamini,

After reading your reply to Amit, I think I understand somewhat what you are trying to get across. I think all of us have a problem in understanding terrorism. It isn't who does it it is more as to how one sees the result. Attacking and killing innocents who have no say in resolving your problem is resorting to terror tactics. It doesn't matter who does it, whether a Govt. or a group. That is why I don't buy this terrorist - freedom fighter bull.

Like Amit, I also felt a clarification was required about your statement on persecution of Muslims in India. You mention the Gujrat riots. Haven't the majority of people you discuss this with expressed their resentment and anger in the strongest possible terms, regradless of their religion or any other factor? In fact by that logic Sikhs, after 1984 and the Khalistan issue, can be considered to be persecuted in India. As far as ethnic clensing goes there is no better example than that of the Kashmiri Pandits. The way I see it, these were blots on us as a nation and a people. They are not however a yardstick to judge and make sweeping general statements. It gets us nowhere really.

I think that we are really going about discussing the wrong issues to some extent. I think we don't need to really spend too much time discussing who is responsible. That is a known entity and the problem is not going to disappear in the near future. What we need to concentrate on, at this time, is on questioning our ability to tackle terrorism. Is enough being done? Why do we keep getting the same old answers everytime? The problems are known, what I want to know is how have we gone about overcoming those deficiencies. Are we really learning with each disaster? Somehow that is not very encouraging as far as I am concerned.

Getting to the roots of the problem is another issue. Unfortunately I find that most who say this should be done have almost no knowledge about the very roots they want to be looked at. This is of course with specific reference to our problem and the Kashmir issue. I'm sorely tempted to start another epistle on here but will refrain for now.

Desh and naaj,

have followed your exchange of ideas and views with great interest and personally have benefitted enormously. Above all I have been most impressed with the manner the two of you have gone about this discussion, without personal rancour and with the dignity you have maintained. makes it all the more interesting.

Like Ravi says, Naaj, welcome to IB, we just took one more step forward with your joining the community.

O.k. let me start again................

This discussion is about who is to blame for terrorism.

1. The arms war. The US supplying arms to the Israelis, who then use the very same arms to advocate a 'war on terror' which includes the invasion of Lebanon. In the light of the politically sensitive nature of global terrorism, Al Queda is now vowing to retaliate for the massacre of their 'brothers' in Lebanon by waging increased terrorist attacks on the US and all others who have been supplying arms to Israel. This includes India. So we can look forward to more civilian casualties because of the agressive policy on terrorism that most Western Governments are using and have used.

2.The 'war on terrorism' philosophy that is being practiced by the US and the coalition-giving them an excuse to annhiliate and kill innocent people, and create a public outrage that Muslims are to blame for what is happening to the people of the world.

Its interesting because Robin Cook actually said that before the UK went into Iraq there was no international terrorism per se.

3.Addressing the root cause: the liberation of Palestine, the zionists v the infidel, the Bush v Bin Laden, the Hindus v the Muslims, ethnic cleansing, human rights violations etc etc. Displaced persons, landless people, minority rights not been implemented in countries where Muslims have been marginalised, poverty, unemployment etc.

My point is , stop blaming the Muslim people of the world and the Muslim religion (and how the extremists have used the text) for what is going on in the world today. There are two sides of the coin to be looked at. One is the approach to International terrorism and the other is a religious war. We are talking about fundmentalists, whether they are Hindu/Muslim. Look at the reasons.

What's your soultion-we kill them all? Or should we do what Israel is doing and send the armies in to tackle the terrorist factions head on and in the process annihilate a culture, a people and a way of life for many? Afganisthan/Iraq/Lebanon have already suffered at the hands of this philosophy and in the process have been and are being destroyed.

I would like to hear your approach. Mine was set out in my earlier post above.

Would you call Israel a terrorist nation or a nation that is trying to preserve its national security and its religious beliefs-by stating that they are a free democracy and have the right to go into a country and attack on a military basis, defying all international laws and conventions? How are they any better than the US going into Iraq?

Read what I'm saying. I said that I do not and will not accept persecution of any human being based on a religious/cultural basis. Yes, that includes Sikhs/Muslims/Hindus/Catholics/Tibetans etc. How do you mobilise a people to follow a doctrine, you target their insecurities, you make them believe that in order to fight for justice (in their minds-be it the liberation of Palestine/or the revenge for the massacres in Bosnia or historical persecution) in sacrificing their lives, they are fighting for the freedom of their brethren and recogintion of their faith.

I'm trying to say that in order to move forward, there has to be an objective approach to the root cause. In my mind, the causes are clear. To address them, there has to be a stop to the aggressive approach and a U-turn back to the political/socio-economic approach.

I'm not sure I understand what point you made when saying that in mentioning the Gujarat riots I was making sweeping statements?. I was trying to point out that Muslims (in their minds) have also been persecuted in many countries the world -and this is what is being used to indoctrinate them to go out and retaliate against this percieved injustice. Albeit, the revenge is violent (whihc you must understand I am not an advocate of).

An excerpt below from a Time magazine article may articulate more of what I am saying:-

'A mounting sense of persecution among young Muslims in India, combined with high unemployment and mounting anxiety about what many see as a global crusade against their religion, makes fertile recruiting ground for homegrown groups such as SIMI. Muslims resent the fact that four years after anti-Muslim riots killed more than 2,000 in the state of Gujarat, there have been few convictions. Police raids, detentions and the oft-reported abuses that occur under such detentions only add to their sense of being unfairly targeted. "Perceived injustice is the bedrock upon which all terrorist groups are based,"

The point is that this global war on 'Muslim extremists' is turining the world into a war front..and we cannot deny that with Bush's approach the fire has been fuelled ten-fold.

P.s.

Ravi: Thanks for the good words! Have sent you the invite.

Dara & Morris:Thanks a lot for the good words!

Naj:

Its good that you refer to a survey. But there are enough surveys which will assert something different too. For example this one: http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2770 - from Pew Research which shows how Muslims the world over think about Nationality and Religion.

During my research too, however, the youth as well as some of the functionaries at the Madrasas I met did fall into the category who would "bust the myths" as Naj has articulated. They were opposite of the proverbial Muslim stereotype we all think of.

I asked one official on the board of a big (I think it was the oldest - older than darul-uloom) Madaris - that if you think like that (progressively), then why dont you project it? He said something that put things into perspective:

"If I speak out, do you think they will let me be a member of the board??"

So, if I were to read into this survey that Naj has shared, I would again reiterate that in that case the general Muslim population is speaking out in a voice that is different from those of the clerics and the leaders! Their aspirations are being subjugated!

And Naj, things like appeasement have to be properly understood. Nobody pays for a Hindu to visit Vaishno Devi, but the Government does subsidize the Haj. One of the reason why Kashmiri Pandits have undergone the kind of trauma and complete apathy of the Indian Government is also an obverse effect of that streak!

As far as the Democracy and Islam is concerned, bring a bunch of Muslims at the helm of affairs of India as political leaders where they could set laws - the clamour for Shariat wont be too far. Remember Shah Bano?

I invite you to read the article: http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/2888

Where I was appalled by the act of community contributions towards saving the 1993 accused!! It is similar to community contributions to save Indira Gandhis killers or Nathu ram Godse! I think what that act said was contrary to most of the assertions in any survey!

So, this is all relative. Plus what the community says through its leaders is different from what the common man says.

I would say that instead of trying to show how Muslims and Islam are "different" from what the perception is - i think it will be better to revisit the basis of perceptions again - DISPASSIONATELY! I believe that has been completely lacking in the Muslim community. And whoever tries to do that is subjugated (Tasleema and that Doc from Iran).

You may try your direction, Naj, but I would say that it is not yielding results.. and it is strengthening the belief in the non-muslims that you are but anything - loathe to critically view your own self dispassionately! Revolutions are not created until there is a critical re-examininng! But first one has to believe that a revolution is required.. beyond the lifestyle paradigm of 1400 years!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Forgot to add this! :-)

'Some reports suggest that arms are smuggled into Gujarat from Bombay and Pakistan, and that the weapons used by Hindus to attack Muslims in 2002 may have been provided by the state police. Mobs also killed people with knives and iron bars, and by burning them to death. According to reports, certain militant Hindu groups operating in Gujarat receive funding from Indians living abroad.

"Hindu nationalist groups continue to arm civilians in Gujarat and many other Indian states. Instead of cracking down on these groups, the Gujarat state Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government has included the distribution of arms as part of its election manifesto." [Human Rights Watch, July 1, 2003]

"In April 2003 alone, tridents were distributed to more than 3,000 youth... VHP Gujarat’s general secretary Kaushik Mehta told the Times of India that trident distribution does not violate the Arms Act as tridents are less than six inches in size and therefore cannot be classified as weapons." [Human Rights Watch, Compounding Injustice: Government’s Failure to Redress Massacres in Gujarat, July 2003]

"The sangh parivar [extremist Hindu nationalist movement]-sponsored militarization of a growing Hindu nationalist cadre enjoys political patronage, outright impunity, and, as evidence increasingly suggests, funding from Indians living abroad. ... [D]etails have emerged identifying sangh parivar outfits in the United States and United Kingdom as major sources of funding for sangh activities in India." [Human Rights Watch, Compounding Injustice: Government’s Failure to Redress Massacres in Gujarat, July 2003]

"Huge sums of money have been made smuggling arms, contraband and silver from Pakistan to Bombay via Gujarat. Much of that money has found its way into the hands of religious extremists, both Hindus and Muslims. Crime gangs also quite openly take sides in communal riots, making the violence that much more bloody and vicious." [BBC News, September 25, 2002]

Hi Dara, Ravi,

Thanks! Glad to know you all. Have a nice day.

'The good news is that the United States government has removed Nelson Mandela, Tokyo Sexwale and Sidney Mufamadi from its list of global terrorists.

The bad news is that the removal is only for the next 10 years. George Bush, the US president, and consular officials privately informed the three men during Bush's recent visit to South Africa, according to an official US source.

The US state department is reviewing the status of hundreds of listed South Africans. Some were listed for having convictions against them for terrorism, sabotage, treason or related offences against the apartheid state. Others were members of the guerrilla army, Umkhonto we Sizwe.

In all instances, if they apply as government ministers, they receive special dispensation to travel to the US, but if they apply as private citizens, their visas are rejected, particularly since the US has tightened visa applications in its "war against terror".

One US embassy official, who preferred to remain anonymous, denied that Mandela, Sexwale and Mufamadi were listed as terrorists, but refused to clarify what they were listed as.

Virginia Farris, the public affairs spokesperson for the US embassy in Pretoria, said people were not "delisted as such, they receive 10-year waivers from the department of immigration and nationalisation and the department of homeland security".

Farris said these regulations applied to everyone and that there would be "quite a number of leaders of countries around the world on the list".

"To make an exception for those who struggled against apartheid would require congress to change the law, and that would be a very lengthy process," Farris said.

She advised that those who had convictions against them for anti-apartheid activism apply "at least several weeks ahead of travelling to the US for a department of justice waiver. It could take months."

Another US embassy source said the state department was reviewing its list of "undesirable" South Africans, "but this could take a long time. The 10-year-only limitation is embarrassing in these instances, but that is the way legislation is presently constructed".

The removal of the three ANC stalwarts from the list appears to have been a pre-emptive move to avert a potentially damaging court case threatened by Sexwale, a Johannesburg businessman and former Umkhonto we Sizwe commander.

US sources said Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser, personally intervened about six months ago, asking Sexwale to hold fire on legal action after his US lawyers served papers on the state department.

Sexwale brought the action after he was refused a visa to visit the US late last year. This was despite the fact that he had visited the US, without hindrance, as Gauteng premier several years ago.

Mandela has never been refused a visa.

Mufamadi, as a cabinet minister, would not be refused a visa, but were he to apply as a private citizen, he would be.

Sexwale and Mufamadi, also a senior member in Umkhonto we Sizwe, had convictions against them by the apartheid government. Sexwale killed a policeman and Mufamadi kidnapped a police officer. Mandela was convicted of sabotage.

Late last year Mandela, who has frequently visited the US at the invitation of its government and others, received the US's highest civilian decoration.

Sexwale has extensive business connections with US companies and chairs the world's second-biggest diamond company after De Beers, among other business interests ranging from oil to wine.

The former Gauteng premier was not prepared to comment and Mandela and Mufamadi were not available for comment.

However, a US source said the three had appeared pleased by the news.

A US embassy source said the state department was reviewing its list of "undesirable" South Africans, "but this could take a long time. The 10-year-only limitation is embarrassing in these instances, but that is the way legislation is presently constructed." - Foreign Service '

Just one more post-sorry-but the rhetoric sounds familiar!

Umkhonto We Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation") was founded partly in response to the notorious Sharpeville Massacre of March 1960. Its leader, Nelson Mandela, was to be arrested shortly after this manifesto was published, eventually being sentenced to life in prison, though he was released in 1990, with the end of apartheid.

On 16th December, 1961, Umkhonto We Sizwe, military wing of the ANC, made it known that we, the oppressed people of South Africa, would fight for our rights. We made this known not only with words. Dynamite blasts announced it.

From 13th August, 1967, our men of Umkhonto We Sizwe, together with our brothers of ZAPU (Zimbabwe African People's Union) have been fighting the oppressors in Matabeleland, Wankie and further south.

The Vorster government, through the radio and newspapers, continues to lie bout this fighting.

The truth is very different from what these newspapers have reported. Our men are armed and trained freedom-fighters, not "terrorists." They are fighting with courage, discipline and skill. The forces of the Rhodesian racialists suffered heavy losses. So also did the white soldiers sent to Rhodesia by Vorster to save the Smith regime from collapse.

The freedom-fighters have inflicted heavy losses on the enemy. Apart from those who have been ambushed and killed, hospitals at Bulawayo and Wankie are crowded with wounded Smith and Vorster forces. Several South African helicopters and military transport planes have been brought down over the past three months.

The fighting will go on in Rhodesia and South Africa. We will fight until we have one, however long it takes and however much it will cost;

Why we fight

To you, the sons and daughters of the soil, our case is clear.

The white oppressors have stolen our land. They have destroyed our families. They have taken for themselves the best that there is in our rich country and have left us the worst. They have the fruits and the riches. We have the backbreaking toil and the poverty.

We burrow into the belly of the earth to dig out gold, diamonds, coal, uranium. The white oppressors and foreign investors grab all this wealth. It is used for their enrichment and to buy arms to suppress and kill us.

In the factories, on the farms, on the railways, wherever you go, the hard, dirty, dangerous, badly paid jobs are ours. The best jobs are for whites only.

In our own land we have to carry passes; we are restricted and banished while the white oppressors move about freely.

Our homes are hovels; those of the whites are luxury mansions, flats and farmsteads.

There are not enough schools for our children; the standard of education is low, and we have to pay for it. But the government uses our taxes and the wealth we create to provide free education for white children.

We have suffered long enough.

Over 300 years ago the white invaders began a ceaseless war of aggression against us, murdered our forefathers, stole our land and enslaved our people.

Today they still rule by force. They murder our people. They still enslave us.

Only by meeting force with force can we win back our motherland.

We have tried every way to reason with the white supremacists. For many years our leaders and organizations sent petitions and deputations to Cape Town and Pretoria, even overseas, to London and the United Nations in New York. We organized mass demonstrations, pass-burnings, peaceful stay-at-homes.

What answer was given by the government?

Strikers and demonstrators were shot in cold blood. New acts of oppression and injustice were heaped upon us. Our leaders and spokesmen were banned, gagged, jailed, banished--even murdered. Our organization, the African National Congress, was outlawed. Our meetings, journals and leaflets were prohibited.

The Nazi Vorster, who was interned for helping Hitler, is now the Prime Minister of South Africa. This man is the murderer of Mini, Mkaba, Khayingo, Bongco, Saloojee and other brave sons of Africa. He has condemned Mandela, Sisulu, Mbeki, Bhlaba, Motsoaledi, Mlangeni, Kathrada, Fischer and many others to rot away in jails for life.

They have declared war on us. We have to fight back!

Our Indian brothers know full well the hardships and bitterness of white baaskaap rule. Since the time of Mahatma Ghandi and before, they have had to face persecution--attempts to deport them to India, Ghetto Acts, Group Areas and other forms of oppression.

The South African Indian Congress fought back. Led by men like Yusuf Dadoo, Monty Naicker and Nana Sita, the Indian community marched hand in hand with the ANC for liberty, for the rights of all South Africans.

Our Colored brothers know how even the few privileges they were allowed--crumbs from the master's table--have been taken away from them. Votes, skilled jobs, trade union rights--one by one they are being taken away. Now apartheid madness is conscripting the Colored youth into labor camps and jails for pass offenders. The ghetto walls grow higher. That is why the Colored People's Congress (CPC) pledged its support to the Freedom Charter and why its leaders are driven into jail or exile.

And what of the white minority? For years they have been misled by racialist politicians, dominees and fascists who told them they were the superior race. They have followed the Vorsters and the de Villiers Graffs, and now they are being called upon to fight and die in Defense of apartheid. Let them ask themselves: is it worth it? Has it brought anything but uncertainty and fear, isolation and contempt at home and abroad. Is this a future to fight and die for--a life in an armed camp, surrounded by the hate and anger of the oppressed non-white people?

The African National Congress, remembering also the Bram Fischers and the Dennis Goldbergs, calls on white South Africans to take their place on the side of liberty and democracy, the side of our freedom fighters--now before it is too late.

What we fight for

We are fighting for democracy--majority rule--the right of the Africans to rule Africa. We are fighting for a South Africa in which there will be peace and harmony and equal rights for all people.

We are not racialists, as the white oppressors are. The African National Congress has a message of freedom for all who live in our country.

What you should do

The battle has begun.

In Rhodesia, we have met the oppressors with guns in our hands! That was the start. Soon there will be battles in South Africa.

We will speak to them with guns, again and again, now here, now there, until their day is done and apartheid destroyed for ever.

We call on you to be prepared.

Stand up and speak out against Vorster and his Nazis. Don't collaborate with them! Take courage from our immortal freedom-fighters who died in the name of freedom for all.

Our country will be free. We fight for all South Africans, for you and your children and your children's children.

Prepare to support our fighting men!

Pass this message to your friends and relatives, throughout Southern Africa--in Botswana, Lesotho, South-West Africa, or Swaziland; in Rhodesia, Mozambique or Angola, and in every corner of South Africa itself.

HELP THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS!

MAKE THEIR PATH EASY! Make the enemy's path hard!

WE ARE ANSWERING THE WHITE OPPRESSORS IN THE LANGUAGE THEY HAVE CHOSEN!

THIS IS A WAR TO DESTROY APARTHEID, TO WIN BACK OUR COUNTRY FOR ALL OUR PEOPLE!

WE SHALL WIN! FORWARD TO VICTORY OR DEATH!

AFRIKA! MAYIBUYE! AMANDLA NGAWETHU!

MATLA KE ARONA! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

Dear Kamini,

You wrote """""My quote was in the context of the discussion-as to 'who is to blame'. My point is, and I reiterate again, that the root cuase of terrorism in todays world has to be addressed. Mandela fought his whole life for the freedom of his people and the rights to live as free people in their own land. How is this different from what the Palestinians are fighting for? Or the IRA, or the acivtist factions that want a free J & K?"""""

By just writing mandela and kashmir terrorists in the same line you are uprooting your root cause mentioned above. You probably know that mandela was black and waged a ward against aparteheid against the whites in his country. But you have no knowledge of kashmir or terrorism there. I have debated a lot with muslims groups of kashmir and know first hand what they want. All debates have always ended at kashmir has to be independent just because it has a 99% muslim population. No one in here or anywhere can otherwise justify the independence of kashmir from the union of india where it enjoys a special status. You talk so much of gujrat riots just because so much hype has been given to it by the media. Hindutava bashing and minority appeasement sells in our country. Do you know anything about riots in kashmir in 1984. I am sure you don't know, because it did not get highlited...kashmiri hindu blood does not sell. Scores of people were raped and murdered. Arundhati roy will not even dream of it forget writing an article. Tell me Kamini how many muslim homes are stoned in India when pakistan wins a cricket match in india. And i will tell you how many hindu homes were stoned in kashmir when India used to win against pakistan and don't forget kashmir is a part of india. It is just muslim dominant. You don't know what are the dictats of terrorists or what goes in their mind. Kill all kafirs(non muslims) and islamisize the world is their motto which is brainwashed into their minds across thousands of madrassas. What is the big deal about babri masjid. Hundreds of temples have been destroyed in kashmir and bangladesh since last decade. Tell me kamini you care so much for one babri masjid, which by the way was the result of the destruction of a temple and massacare of hindus. Do you care for all the temples destroyed. First of all did you know...if you knew did you do anything.....something small..probably a blog or an article somewhere or a small discussion with someone.

""""Are you serious? Where have you been for the last ten years. Heard of Milosevic? Heard of ethnic cleansing?""""

I am serious kamini and i was right here but i wonder where are you. I had asked you do you know something about this name Amin-Al Husseini. Let me update you Amin-al husseini was a muslim fanatist who went by the title of "protector of Islam" in bosnia. He was responsible for the massacare of 250000 non muslims. Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs. Amin Al Husseini created the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he called ‘the cream of Islam’. It became the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participated actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat met Amin Al-Husseini at age 17 and started to work for him. Amin Al-Husseini, great-uncle of Arafat, whose real name is Mohammed Abder Rauf Arafat Al-Kudwa Al-Husseini. Anyways lets not get deep in it but you must know and understand that muslims are not persecuted anywhere but are plundering this entire world and holding humanity to ransom. And people like you share some responsibility for this.

""""""Get off this bandwagon, Not all Muslism are terrorists, not all Hindus are terrorists or Christians. Fundamentalism is hijacked by a few and utilised to mobilse the many."""""

I agree with you kamini....All muslims are not terrorists But All terrorists somehow happen to be muslims. What do you have to say about that...not at one place but globally.

And yes you are right again, fundamuntalism has been hijacked by the clerics of islam globally to mobilize the entire community for Islamization of this world. This would probably seem far fetched to your mind but this has been the goal of millitant islam since ages. Remember there is always a HOLY WAR that is going on whether it is kashmir or palestine. And the terrorists are HOLY WARRIORS... mujaheddin. Has it ever occured to you why all these independence movements of muslims globally are HOLY WARS. Probably you don't care because you are busy bashing gujrati's who by the way are the highest tax payers of the country. Modi is the most succesful CM till date and Gujrat contributes 100 times more revenue to the union of India compared to kashmir.

"""""What are you talking about? I'm a Hindu and I live in India. I will not and cannot accept any unprovoked attack on civilians/innocent women and children. This applies to the Gujarat killings, as a Hindu I was disgusted at what happened as were many other HIndus. """"
Kamini i am sorry to say that people like you have cheerfully and with utmost glee accepted unprovoked attacks on civilians when....Minority hindus were murdered in kashmir.......the two bombay blasts killing hundreds.....akshardham blast.......godhra massaare.....innumerable incidents in J&K in which innocent blood has been shed.

Remember terrorism in India or anywhere cannot flourish with local support from any community....without all those sleeper cells.

much thanks

Amit

Dear Amit,

I'm afraid that I cannot even begin to respond to your retort, as you seem to have missed the point of what I am saying entirely.

'By just writing mandela and kashmir terrorists in the same line you are uprooting your root cause mentioned above'. You probably know that mandela was black and waged a ward against aparteheid against the whites in his country.

Of course I know that Mandela is black!!!!!!! I was on the streets marching against apartheid in my youth as a member of the ANC. I'm not sure you get the point.

Mandela was fighting for the liberation of his people, so are the Palestinian factions, so was the IRA, so are the Kashmiri terrorists. In my post, if you read it, Mandela was deemed a terrorist-but called himself a freedom fighter. This is about oppression, persecution, lack of rights, human rights violation.

I have worked in Gujarat, I have worked with mulsims who were affected by the communal riots. My concern is your anti-muslim sentiment.

'muslims are not persecuted anywhere but are plundering this entire world and holding humanity to ransom. And people like you share some responsibility for this'.

Your comment frightens me. I would say that the US government and now Israel is holding the whole world to ransom with their approach to global terrorism.

How can you deny that Muslims have not been persecuted on some level? How can you deny the gencoide in Bosnia? Even when I give you facts, you accuse me of slagging off Gujaratis-and know knowing what I'm talking about. Modi, I dont even want to go there.

I'm totally flabbergasted by your response. However, I think we agree that violence breeds violence and is not a solution, but anti-muslim sentiment and the inability to understand that they have suffered as well does not make sense to me. Who cares about what happened 400 years ago-we care about here, now, today and how to deal with this situation.

All terrorists are Muslim-in what context? To name but a few:-

Abkhaz Separatists - Georgia
East Turkestan Islamic Movement - Central Asia and China
East Turkistan Liberation Organization (China)
ETA (Basque Fatherland and Liberty) - Spain and southern France (founded 1959)
Front de Libération du Quebec - Canada (founded 1963)
Cells: Chenier Cell, Liberation Cell,
Kosovo Liberation Army - (KLA)
Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK/KADEK/KONGRA-GEL) - Turkey
Los Macheteros - Puerto Rico (founded 1976)
National Front for the Liberation of Corsica (FLNC) - France
Armed Islamic Group (GIA) - France, Algeria
Algerian National Movement (MNA) - France, Algeria (disbanded)
National Liberation Front (FLN) - France, Algeria
Zapatista Army of National Liberation - Mexico
Army for the Liberation of Rwanda - Rwanda (Hutu emancipatory;genocidal)
Aryan Nations - United States
Black Panthers - United States
Boeremag - South Africa

If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.
Nelson Mandela

Opinions are like arsholes, everyone has one but they're all different!

:-)

All the best

K

Kamini:

"Who cares about what happened 400 years ago-we care about here, now, today and how to deal with this situation."

This remark shows your immaturity and impatience. Ask a Muslim who is fighting a Jew as to why is he fighting? Is the folk lore of the time of Ishmael's time not the root cause?

Further you are wont to give examples of Bosnia and Gujarat.. but take offence to the religious cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits! The massacres of Bosnia werent too far off from the massacres of Kashmiri Pandits on the temporal scale!!

Everything has a CONTEXT. If you dissociate the context from information what you get is data - lots of argument points but not useful for any intelligent debate!

As much as you consider Amit's view "prejudiced" or one-sided; you could have had a valid standpoint if you had ALSO worked along with Kashmiri Pandits in Delhi at least once! THEN you would have known BOTH SIDES of the coin to argue intelligently.

But then like you say "Opinions" are like arsholes, everyone has one. Some just blow it so loudly thinking theirs is the biggest of all!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

One more thing - the Terrorist vs Freedom Fighter debate is one of the most stupid ones that I have seen in a long time!!

Apparently, as is the wont of many Pakistani debaters, Bhagat Singh and others are brought up when you talk about Kashmiri terrorists - amply displaying their ignorance of history and personalities.

Bhagat Singh was involved in two major "violent" events - One, killing of Sanders, and second the bomb in the assembly.

In the first, Sanders had DIRECT involvement in Lala Lajpat Rai's murder, and in case of the Assembly bombing - they all made sure that the Bomb COULD NOT KILL!! It was created to simply make NOISE - "to make the deaf hear" (as they called it). They could easily have massacred the Brits there at that time - but they CHOSE NOT TO!

Apparently our friendly neighborhood Kashmiri "freedom fighter-terrorists" dont go around with NOISE-ONLY-KILLING-CANCELLATION Bombs!

As I have said in an earlier post, the use for Violence IS THERE - and it is when it is DIRECTED at the VIOLENT vs the VICTIM!

I think Jesus/Gandhi/Buddha paradigm was different (and in my personal view flawed) than the Gita paradigm.

While the JGB paradigm suggests "Thou SHALT NOT kill"....

.... Gita's paradigm suggests "Thou CANNOT kill"!

Krishna merely said that you are taking too much credit if you think YOU killed someone... just do your duty! Non-violence in that paradigm is NOT a moral!! DUTY is!

I believe that second paradigm is useful in most circumstances. If a Red Neck is killing a poor black peasant and you just sit there with a grimace on your face.... saying "Violence against Violence is Useless"...... well the only consequence will be that the black peasant will be killed anyways!!

As regards, Mandela and Gandhi, it would have been interesting to see their reactions if their wives, daughters or nieces were raped and murdered in front of their eyes!!

"Kshama Shobhti US bhujang ko;
Jiske paas garal ho!

Wo kya jo bal-heen, vish-rahit, saral ho!"

(Pardon is worthy from a Snake;
that has enough venom.

Of what use is it from a harmless, venomless one?)

So before you jump on the Non-violence bandwagon, and shout at another Pandit - take someone most dear to you.. someone you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT SEE DYING - and visit Kupwara wearing a bindi and then go door-to-door denouncing violence.

If you or your dear one are back I will like to listen to your reactions...

.... until then please excuse me from this NV bullshit!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Kamini:

"I care that inncoent women and children in Lebanon are being killed, because Israel has held onto its historical persecution and used this as an argument to murder people in the name of 'the war on terror'."

Your rhetoric is so one-sided, that I thought I will just try and address some aspects here.

In all your discourse, I saw your bleeding heart beating for the women and kids in the Islamic countries...

.... did it ever feel for the Israeli bride or her friends or her Mom who might be killed by the suicide bomber?

No apparently.. or its probably so faint a flicker that you couldnt detect to even pen it here.

Lemme guess why? Because they bring it on themselves by having such a Government? (if you have any other reason for your CONVENIENT SELECTIVE AMNESIA OF HEART please let us know)

Ostensibly, the women and kids in Palestine or Lebanon cannot or donot "bring it upon" themselves by definition in the Secularist world!!

Do you even begin to see the hypocritic bleeding your heart indulges in, Kamini?

And btw, WHERE THE FUCK ... honestly .. is ONE KAMINI or a RAHUL BOSE amongst the Islamic WORLD who goes around denouncing and targetting the Islamic clerics and the Muslims love for violence .... and a call for "UNDERSTANDING" a Jewish ultra politician or a Modi and why he/she is acting the way he/she is???

I am convinced BEYOND A DOUBT that people like YOU and BUSH/MODI etc FULLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY DESERVE EACH OTHER!!

And honestly both you groups insult my intelligence!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,

Here are a few:

i) Dr. Wafa Sultan
http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/03/for_muslim_who.html

ii)Irshad Manji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji

iii)Hamid Dalwai

Desh,
I've been looking for this poem for a very very long time
Arjun ka tyag...
Shama daya tap tyag manobal sabka liya sahara...
please if you have this poem,and if you can please post it...
thanks...

I read this blog by Dan Hussain...and I liked it hence i'm posting it here...
==================================================

The Value of Human Life in Islam

I was once fortunate to hear Maulana Syed Kalb-e-Sadiq, Senior Vice-President of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board, at a Shia congregation. The Maulana was speaking on Jehad and terrorism. I do not recall much of his speech except a portion where he expatiated upon the idea of human life in Islam. He said that the most important aspect of a Muslim life is to believe in the principles of Islam and the articles of faith. For a Shia these will translate into the roots of religion and the branches of religion. (You'd find the explanation to these on the same Wikepedia link that I gave for the principles of Islam and the articles of faith.)

Now let's take an example of a devout Muslim, the Maulana said, who follows these principles to the last word. Let's say this man is preparing to go for Haj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, and has his passport with a valid visa and his plane ticket in his pocket. He has money that he has kept aside for religious alms in his pocket, is fasting as it is the month of Ramadhan and decides to offer Namaaz, the daily prayer, at the banks of Gomti river. As he begins offering his namaaz he hears a splash in the river and a shout for help from a man drowning in the river. Let's say this man drowning is Bal Thackeray. Clearly, a man whom any average muslim does not see as a friend. Now what should this devout Muslim do? Should he abdicate his mandatory religious duties to save a man whom he sees as his foe or should he just carry on with his prayers and let Bal Thackeray drown thinking this must be some stroke of luck: The Divine Will?

No, the Maulana insisted. It is mandatory (read religious duty) for this devout Muslim to break his namaaz, jump in the river and break his fast, let his passport, plane ticket and money get wasted and save Bal Thackeray from drowning. This is what the value of human life in Islam is. I wonder Maulana why your words don't reach these self-proclaimed Jehadis who won't flinch from placing a bomb in a rush-hour train and blow to pieces few hundred innocent citizens. May be the Muslim Ulemas (read clerics) like Maulana Kalb-e-Sadiq need to use the mass media more effectively to propogate their words.

written by Dan Husain (from his blog)

Naj: Thanks for correcting me!

Andaleeb: Though it looks like a nice poem from the "Mukhda" - unfortunately, I dont remember it or have it! I would definitely look for it at all the places I can.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Andaleeb

I have remembered these lines since my childhood.. from what I remember this poem was written by one of my favorite poet - Dinkar. He, Bhartendu and Nirala formed my favorite trio. I did not realize that these lines are from the poem YOU referred to!! I will look for it definitely.. I remember to have liked it then... but somehow only these lines stuck in my mind because of their significance! Will post it when I find it...

Cheers,
Desh

Kamini,

Please do not take my views personally. It is the ideology and drishtikone as per desh that counts. Kamini tell me....you are a hindu, i guess your name suggests that. And you say that you went to work for the muslims affected in gujrat riots. It is a good thing for a good cause. Did you visit the families of the people barbequed in the train in godhra. Oh...probably you forgot them...happens.....who cares about a 70 80 roasted non muslims. Arundhati roy also did the same thing she even interviewed scores of riot victims. Can you tell me why she didn't even interview even one kin of the godhra burn. See basically you seem to be a very decent person whose heart bleeds for riot victims and you want to do something for them. All of us appreciate that......after all so many died in gujrat. Bt kamini don't you feel the blood of hindus in bangladesh and kashmir was and is also red. Don't you feel they also must have felt the same pain when they were tortured and maimed. But probably since it does not get aired across the media the pain fails to permeate your heart and soul. Less than thousand killed in gujrat and the kamini's of india are up in arms against hindutava. It is good kamini i like that....but these very kamini's are silent when not hundreds but millions are systematically wiped out in bangladesh and kashmir. They don't have the courage and guts to stand against that.

My question is what prevents the kamini's and roy's to identify or even comprehend the atrocities thrown by islamic fundamuntalists across the indian sub continent??????

why does not kamini care for her community......why????? she never went to kashmir or bangladesh but probably has done something for the gujrat victims. Why don't peope care......It is clear because minority apeasement is the thing in vogue here since last 4 decades and it sells like hot cakes. If you do something for your own community it does not matter and you are a nobody. But if you do something for the minority you are a modern secularist who can talk the talk and walk the walk. You will get media coverage and patronization from the government.And yes you will get the license to brand me as right wing or whatever.

Kamini says who cares about history........
Yes the kamini's Amit's and Desh's of this world don't care about history. Kamini i don't care about history 400 years back when my forefathers were bearing the brunt of islamic forced conversions. Kamini i don't care about history when not even a single muslim existed in kashmir and pakistan where today not even a single hindu exists.

But the problems is that the islamists don't want to forget and keep lingering on. Arab Israel conflict is the best example. Why don't the arabs forget history and let the jews live in peace.

And you have not answered my question why are all islamic independence movements HOLY WARS. And why are terrorists called Mujaheddin.

regards

Amit

Andaleeb

I found the poem and posted it on my blog at http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/3132

CHeers,
Desh

Amit, I'm half Hindu half Sikh actually.

Desh, I'm really shocked at your personal attack on me. If this is a disussion, I should be allowed to voice my opinions. I'm not about to give the satisfaction and fuel your sanctamonious personality and lower myself to your form of argument. You say I don't give examples of Gujarat and Bosnia. Can you read? Check the examples I give above regarding the 8000 Muslims massacred under Milosevic, and the 2000 Muslims in Gujarat. I refer back to the above posts.

I have to sya I'm appalled at the ant-muslim sentiment that you and Amit are fuelling here-but you won't allow others to give a more measured argument.

Yes, I am impatient, because I think the situation being created in todays world is the personification of impatience. Bush going into Iraq; countries such as Israel decide that going into another country to counter attack terrorism, and in the process justifying an invasion and killing innocent people. The flourishing of terrorism today is a result of impatience.

Desh-HOW DARE YOU COMPARE ME TO BUSH. If you have any intelligence, because apprently I don't. Perhaps you can read into what I am saying.

Let me spell it out again:-

1. If my family was murdered by a government or a terrorist group-you think I wouldn't feel that an act of revenge wasn't justfifed?.

How can you accuse me of all the above?

Did I mention non-violence??? I'm talking about the 'war on terror philosophy' American foreign policy. READ.

And yes, I have been to Bangladesh, and yes I have lost family/friends in Kashmir.

And for the record. I think Amit and desh are the type of people who are reventing any solution to the problem of the world today. Let's see, Desh is a management consultant sitting in the US, posting poems and attacking people with a different opinion. Amit,. I have no idea who you are but you are anti-muslim for sure. And your posts are extremely agressive and one sided. You don't even want to listen to the other side. Thank God neither of you are in politics, we'd all be fucked! lol.

Andaleeb:

Nice story! Wonder why these things dont come out.

There is one thing that I have noticed and will comment on. As is the case with so many Quranic verses that I have encountered on mass media which are regular fodder for the Jehadis, there are people like you who do cite the instances where Quran talks of peace.

After listening to and reading writings of so many Gurus and some scriptures, I am convinced that there aint even a single one that is consistent. And it has NOTHING to do with the antiquity of the writing and the supposed distortions... but the nature of word and mind of every person.

Not one book or person is consistent. We just use the Halo effect of one part to exalt another.

That is why it is important to critique every book and every word that you read or hear consistently!

Even though I am so taken in by Gita, my personal introspection tells me that only 75% of it seems consistent with the central message. I am also a great fan of Swami Vivekananda - but even his lectures were inconsistent at times with an earlier message.

I consider three levels of spiritual message
- Profound
- Mundane-general
- Mundane- specific

The level of consistent message falls lower when the level of Mundane increases. Mundane-specific is to do with what a person shall eat .. what he/she should drink.. how to sleep.. etc. There is a portion of Vedas that deals with it.. and even by Swami Vivekananda's estimation that was not the most useful part. I agree. Similarly, a lot of stuff in Quran also deals with Mundane-specific!

In Gita too, we touch areas that are in the Mundane-general realm... and that is where it loses track a bit.

I cant say that I have made sense here.. but I have said what I have been able to gather with my limited mind.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Kamini:

Your "shock" surprised me!!

First things first: it wasnt a personal attack. It was an argument that was taken personally by you. Frankly, if you believe that just because you provide a collage of examples with very little argument - the other folks would just lap it up.. sorry! Your arguments dont carry much sense and that is that.

So, instead of jumping around at the affront of someone questioning your argument and throwing adjectives and making fun of one's vocational credentials - it would be better if you could read into the posts earlier and make some sense out of it!

I have said this earlier and I will say this for your benefit - I am questioning the Muslim/Islamic paradigm. Asking questions is NOT ANTI-Islamic. I hope you understand that!

This is what you wrote:

"Yes, I am impatient, because I think the situation being created in todays world is the personification of impatience. Bush going into Iraq; countries such as Israel decide that going into another country to counter attack terrorism, and in the process justifying an invasion and killing innocent people. The flourishing of terrorism today is a result of impatience."

Specifically read the first and the last line.. to understand the shallowness and inconsistent logic in your post!

I am not here to beat any one up.. but to say my mind! You can too...

.. but please dont assume the greatness of your ideas without having them scrutinized!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

"And your posts are extremely aggressive and one sided. You don't even want to listen to the other side. "

Kamini:

.... and you are saying it??

Chill a bit gal!!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh, you want to turn this into another blog fight! Frankly, I have better things to do. But BRING IT ON! (as I am like Bush, I may as well use hid language-lol)

Why don't you chill and get off your high horse, before you start accusing people of having a lack of intelligence and not being able to comprehend your unintelligent retorts. Now run along and post one your nice poems!

Kamini:

In all your discourse, I saw your bleeding heart beating for the women and kids in the Islamic countries...

Ummmm, post 123:

I do not and will not accept persecution of any human being based on a religious/cultural basis. Yes, that includes Sikhs/Muslims/Hindus/Catholics/Tibetans etc.

Yes, Tibetans are Muslims Desh aren't they?

.... did it ever feel for the Israeli bride or her friends or her Mom who might be killed by the suicide bomber?

No apparently.. or its probably so faint a flicker that you couldnt detect to even pen it here.

Oh, yes,I forgot, I am a cold heartless human being. let me write a poem about that.......

Lemme guess why? Because they bring it on themselves by having such a Government? (if you have any other reason for your CONVENIENT SELECTIVE AMNESIA OF HEART please let us know)

I repeat, I ama cold heartless human being who doesn't give a shit-osnt' that what you're saying to me?

Ostensibly, the women and kids in Palestine or Lebanon cannot or donot "bring it upon" themselves by definition in the Secularist world!!

Do you even begin to see the hypocritic bleeding your heart indulges in, Kamini?

No, according to you, apparently not.

And btw, WHERE THE FUCK ... honestly .. is ONE KAMINI or a RAHUL BOSE amongst the Islamic WORLD who goes around denouncing and targetting the Islamic clerics and the Muslims love for violence .... and a call for "UNDERSTANDING" a Jewish ultra politician or a Modi and why he/she is acting the way he/she is???

I am convinced BEYOND A DOUBT that people like YOU and BUSH/MODI etc FULLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY DESERVE EACH OTHER!!

And honestly both you groups insult my intelligence!!

Nice. Very intelligent argument. Let me write a poem about it.

'I am questioning the Muslim/Islamic paradigm'.

Yo question away for the rest of the millenium, inthe mean time let the rest of us try and make some sense of all this-and find soultions. OH, oh....yes, I think I'll mention the title of this post... 'Who is to blame fot his attack'
Mmmmmmmmm, though I was addressing this in post 33.

P.s. I think the next time I got J & K I'll ask my cousin about his persepctive on terrorism. He is the Indian Army's Commanding Officer in
J & K.

Desh,

A rather personal question, you can ignore it if you like to do so.

Below are three quotes from your posts

post# 106: "Like I was discussing with a friend of mine recently, in the last few years on this journey, I have had to put EVERYTHING On the table to revisit... EVERYTHING!! I expect the same from everyone else."

Post # 145: " but please dont assume the greatness of your ideas without having them scrutinized!!"

Now see another one, Post 132#: "And btw, WHERE THE FUCK ... honestly .. is ONE KAMINI or a RAHUL BOSE amongst the Islamic WORLD who goes around denouncing and targetting the Islamic clerics and the Muslims love for violence" (I am avoiding the rest of the sentence about Modi)

When you wrote the above quote, did you put everything on the table, I mean everything, as you expect it from everyone else?

If i am not mistaken, you have participated in the discussion about Dr.Wafa. Then how could you forget her even if I presume you did not know the other two? Why this prejudice? Why this impatience? Where does it come from?

You do not need to respond anyway.

Hey Naj,

I was just revisiting the Dr Wafa Sultan blog exchange. Not sure is you were around at that time-but Divya and I had a pretty heated exchange. Desh are you Divya? (Just kidding :-))Anwyay, perhaps Desh/Amit you can look at that blog again at asome point, and perhaps understand where I am coming from.

K

Kamini,

All i can say from your posts is that you don't read my post fully before responding. Probably you have made a right wing chamber in your mind and placed me there. I don't have anything against you, just pity your comprehension. You are like my great great great grandfather who thought there will never be a day when kashmiri hindus will have to flee kashmir.

Anyways you do not respond to my post.....but just thrust your opinion.

reminder for one of the questions asked in the last post.

why are all islamic independence movements HOLY WARS. And why are terrorists called Mujaheddin.

If possible ask you brother in J&K what is the motivating factor for a pakistani terrorist who becomes a sucide bomber in India to kill innocent people.

regards to all

Amit

Dear Amit,

I don't have anything against you either. However, I have been called unintelligent by Desh, compared to Bush, you have accused me of being uncaring, siding with the Muslims, non-committal etc etc and not having the ability to comprehend your posts. have you understood mine?.

I believe in justice regardless of creed, colour and religion. DO YOU?

There are many conflicts being fought in the world today. This is one of them.

I take your opinion on board, but I did not attack you on a personal level earlier. That's the point-you have no right to make assumptions about my life and who I am, and vice versa. I don't want this to appear as a cop out-as I'm not afraid of confrontation in this forum, but there is a limit.

Let me ask you a question? Do you think that the following issues below contribute to terrorist activity:-

1. Historical,religious persecution
2.Political/economic/reclamation of land motivation

If so, do they apply only to the 'Holy War'and Kashmir or to other conflicts? e.g. Palestine/Iraq/Afganisthan/Rwanda/Gujarat/Ireland/The Basque region

This conflict today has gone beyond the political arena and moved into a religious one.

'why are all islamic independence movements HOLY WARS. And why are terrorists called Mujaheddin'.

Are they? I thought that the Hizbollah were fighting for freedom, the Palestinians for freedom. Lets not forget that the original ethos of both was to attain political/economic freedom-this has now been meshed with the fundamentalists approach that it has become a 'holy war'. This matra is now being utilised by other faction fighting other conflicts. However, most struggles have been driven by freedom from oppression. (I'll probably get slated for this). The Holy War is Bin Laden's rhetoric-which the US, through their policies, have paved the way for in the world today.

Can't you see the link in what is happening in these conflicts? Palestine is being used as the biggest driving factor for the 'Holy War'-but started out as a struggle against oppression-synonmous to apartheid. Is the US waging a 'HOlY WAR' under the banner of Democracy and Christian values?

With the occupation of Iraq, Afganisthan and probably in the future Iran/North Korea. Who is waging a war on whom?.

We all know that politics and religion go hand in hand.

The point is when will it end and how? Annihliation of the human race?

K

Sorry if this does not make sense..but I'm typing very fast :-)

Naj:

I had not forgotten about wafa. Actually, she is an exception but we all know how she is hounded. And she has not gone on to ask for love towards the Israelis.. she is merely protesting against the Islamic claustrophobia that she faces as a woman.

manji is no different.

That you take names of these ladies who are themselves getting death threats and who have been announced as "non-believers" by many someway brings to light the malaise that is prevalent.

And Naj, I am not always right or consistent too. When I am not, I admit.

Thanks,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Also remember that the PLO distanced itself from Hezbollah-as they has opposing manifestos. Reagan and Bush armed the Mujheddin-as did Pakistan, with Bin Laden becoming their frontman in using him/them to the fight the Russians in Afganisthan. Mujheddin means 'struggler' literally, but is now intepreted as 'Holy Warrior'. Interestingly, Ronald Reagan used to refer to the Mujaheddin as 'Freedom Fighters'.

Naj:

The premise of my argument until now was to somehow provoke some way to question the beliefs and assumptions we have made hitherto. I somehow feel now that this debate has lost the relevance.

It was very informative and good learning to discuss with you.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,

Actually, it was interesting to note that you could just regurgiate what the mass media propogate, which in one moment celebrate Dr.Wafas and in the next, retort angrily that there are none.

May be time to bust another muslim myth.

btw,

"Actually, she is an exception but we all know how she is hounded."

May be like what http://hinduunity.org/hitlist.html want to do with some hindus they do not like.

Kamini,

How are you? I did not comment on that blog though I have followed it up to the end.

Naj:

Dr. Wafa is asking the same questions that I have asked. In fact she - because of her superior knowledge - goes even far to be specific than I can.

I dont think I regurgitate stuff from mass media. I evaluate everything on my own and put those views with which I agree or formulate.

I do lapse as do all of us.

By providing me counter-lists from Hindu sites - I doubt that you are getting the message of introspection?

And if I flip-flop on Wafa or Islamic dissent - then it is the same with Muslims the world over too... they would not lose a moment to denounce Wafa but will use her where convenient.

The basic question is - are we willing to sit back and think?

You can call Israelis and Bush terrorists - but is that going to solve the deep mess that prevails in the Islamic world? I doubt.

And if you or someone else doesnt feel the need to address it - because other religions also have the same/similar mess - then Naj, one day the future generations will pay for it.

I think our debate has now turned redundant. Its better to let it go here. We can pick up strings later on some other post.

Cheers,
Desh

Desh,

just one more point, with which I will stip.

here are a few muslims who wants to hug a jew -an affirmation of our common humanity.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2003/01/why_a_hugajew_c.php

Kamini,

Even though I said it earlier, I have gone through your comments again, and I repeat that generally we are all in agreement on many issues. In fact your #34 is a well thought out and definately thought provoking commentary which few can ignore. I agree with you when you state that attacking the Muslim community as a whole for the acts of those who are actually distorting the religion to serve their own purpose is wrong. However, the fact also remains that, at this point in time, most terrorist attacks are comitted by Muslims, that is equally valid. There is thus no harm in questioning what it is about Islam and its teachings that is so frequently invoked by terrorists as an alibi for their violence. In your comment, you too have touched upon this aspect of religion, when you said: 'The problem with Terrorism today, is the strong belief that Terrorists have, that in taking their own lives, they are committing the ultimate sacrifice in the name of God/Freedom whatever is their doctrine.'

Because of what is happening at the moment a terrorist is only too often referred to as an 'Islamic terrorist'. Maybe the problem is because the community, as a whole, barring a few notable exceptions, has not reacted strongly enough against those who have misused its beliefs. In a way that has also given the terrorists an excuse to claim that their co-religionists are totally with them, further harming the community. I think we need to whole heartedly and consistently support those who do condemn. Unfortunately, the media which could play a major role in doing this successfully choses to ignore them, as it does not see any great advantage to their ratings in taking this line.

There are some views of yours though which I disagree with completely:

#104
'Mandela fought his whole life for the freedom of his people and the rights to live as free people in their own land. How is this different from what the Palestinians are fighting for? Or the IRA, or the acivtist factions that want a free J & K?'
and # 130
'Mandela was fighting for the liberation of his people, so are the Palestinian factions, so was the IRA, so are the Kashmiri terrorists'.

You ask what is the difference? Am not sufficiently well informed about the other issues but I do know that they were for a cause which most people considered just. Palestinians want to recover their land which is under illegal occupation. The IRA sought unification of their country. These causes were supported their actions were not. As far as J&K is concerned - is India in illegal occupation there? Did J & K become part of India through treachery or devious means on India's part? What illegality has India committed? Has it deprived the citizens of J & K of any rights of priviledges that are available to ordinary Indians? In fact hasn't it granted certain more priviledges to them than to the rest of its States? I would also like to ask people who talk of a 'free' J & K and also profess concern for the Muslims in India whether they have given a thought to the repercussions that it would have on the Muslims in the rest of India? Other than Pakistan, the epi-centre of international terrorism, who has supported the blood shed in Jammu & Kashmir? These are huge and glaring diferences. In J&K we have still not got to the root cause yet.

Kamini, there is no single prescription or medicine to tackle this madness. Each has its own cause and each its own way to be handled. Granted government mismanagement, misgovernance and apathy are often common causes. There is no precise solution, The best I can think of is Deepak's "Where is peace...' blog. Its still a long haul.

Naj

Thanks for the link. I hope you see that such exceptions and so few and far between.

Even though you are content at scoring point on that question I asked by sending me links - I doubt you have understood the overall significance of it.

Isnt it strange that in the vast pantheon of Islamic religious architecture, those like Dr. Wafa become an automatic outcastes?

To me - I know you would not agree - Islam is in a strange situation.. for it is inflicted with Catch 22. Those outside - non-believers - cannot question and most "inside" woouldnt question.... those who do... are automatically deemed as "non-believers". Case closed!

Do you see the anomaly in this picture?

Dayananda Sarawati - for all his opposition of Sanatan Dharma .. the prevalent Hindu setup at his time... is still regarded as a giant in the overall "Hindu" framework.

Shias and Sunnis have just one different belief - of the last prophet - and that is enough for each other to be enemies for ever. Muslims in the hindu areas would feel scared because they might be killed... but for Shias in Pakistan - their deaths can happen in the serene confines of their mosques! No need to go out to a tension-filled area!

Does that disturb you?

Why does such intolerance happen? Why should it happen? Have you asked those questions?

Shaivites and Vaishnavites were perhaps the same way for a long time. It was upto the saner elements to ask some basic questions and call their bluff!

Its not easy to fix such anomalies... but the first step of asking the questions need to occur!! And where asking question is enough to be termed a heretic and thus a non-believer and an enemy.. is there a hope?

Can you do something to create that hope??

The Protestants and Catholics were also fighting.. still do... but hopefully things have gotten better!

Until when will the INTOLERANCE of others' interpretation of one's belief lead to wars and violence??

That is why I said if at all Prophets/Gurus are the nemesis of the mankind.. they have just been successful in injecting the masses with UNSWERVING, UNCHANGING, INTOLERABLE Egos!! Egos that kill!!

Now, before you send me another link to try and score another point.... please.. for whosoever's sake ... think on these questions.

Naj, in the ultimate analysis it is NOT winning a debate.. it is a question of our kids and future generations.

Personally, I believe that such ego-led groups end up fighting - as Christians, jews and Muslims are currently. And often it ends in a terrible tragedy!

I hope I am wrong.. but I dont see much hope!

Desh
Drishtikone.com

Dear Kamini,

See each and every political movement has different governing dynamics and has to be analysed independntly.

Nelason mandela and Bhagat Singh were branded as terrorists with a different objective and perespective by their oppressors. Both of them did not commit acts of terror. By acts of terror i mean blowing small children to bits and killing innocent unarmed people. So please try to understand that everyone in here is intelligent enough to comprehend the difference between Nelson Mandela and "Bitta Karate"(kashmiri terrorist/butcher of kashmiri hindus). And yes i still reteirate that yoy cannot utter both names in the same breath. You and everyone else is welcome to brand me as unintelligent and right winger for that.

Now lets go to your root cause.......

The only common thing among various terrorists in this world today is that they use Islam and Islamic teachings to a large extent for promoting terrorism and suicide bombings.
Religion is the only way to link a pakistani terrorist to the kashmiri cause or a sudanese terrorist to the arab cause. Otherwise pakistani, sudanese, and afghans have little in common. When religion enters political conflicts reason and logic are on their way out, because everything and every action becomes divine. A suicide bomber becomes a holy martyr.
This is the root cause......Kamini the first step to get to it is to understand it. If you understand and comprehend it only then can you prevent it or do something about it.

During the time of ronald reagon the political dynamics of afghanistan were different than today. Taliban was an aftermath....not that i am justifying all american actions. The US defenitely contributed to the destablization of Afghanistan as did Russia. But the post cold war Islamic millitia is different. Hezbollah and Hamas are different. How can you even dream of them as freedom fighters.......their terrorists have killed innocent people including children innumerable times. Do you justify that...do you justify that the best way to fight opression is to kill the civilians and innocent people. You know kamini that people like Nelson mandela think otherwise. So what do you do with all these people who beleive that the best way to end opression(if at all there is any.....(will debate further)) is terrorism and terror tactics on civilians. Don't get confused by guerilla war and terrorism. They are two different things altogether.

In a nutshell The global islamic intelligensia urgently and desparately needs to find ways and means....needs to educate people so that islam ceases to be used as a tool of terror to promote terrorism and suicide bombings.

best regards

Amit

Desh:

"Thanks for the link. I hope you see that such exceptions and so few and far between."

I would like to see some data to prove that these are exceptions. Then I would see it so.

"Even though you are content at scoring point on that question I asked by sending me links - I doubt you have understood the overall significance of it."

I am not here to score any points. You seemed to have certain prejudices or perceptions. I thought it would be worthwhile to correct it. That is all.

Hello People,

Naj: I'm good thanks. How are you doing?

Desh: No hard feelings? :-)

Amit: I agree with the comments you make, which is why I was a bit confused as to your interpretation of my opinion. I was not comparing the ANC to the Kashmiri terrorists. I was merely trying to point out that for some in the face of conflict, the terrorist is deemed a freedom fighter. In Lebanon today, many civilians will be supporting Hizbollah under the current situation. Also for some, Hizbollah with its political power, has built schools, hospitals etc,and been seen to porvide for the people; the same scenario for the Maoists in Nepal. Many Nepalis actually empathise with them, as they have also invested in schools and improved living conditions for many of the rural population. Now, don't jump down my throat and accuse me off supporting Hizbollah and the Maoist terrorist actions. I say the same thing as you. You have to look at each situation in each context.

Castro was the US number one enemy for years. but has provided healthcare/educational establishments for Cubans, so succesffuly, that Cuba has the best HIV treatment procedure and facitlities in the world.

My example of the Mujahhedin, and how they were intially set up and for what..has seen them uptake the 'Holy War' philosophy over a period of time. The point is that most of these factions have been armed by the Western super powers and now fight the very power that used to celebrate them. Who is fighting what these days?. I do not deny that the Islamist extremists are fighting a 'Jihad', but isn't it interesting why people are attacking the very societies that they have been brought up in and been a part of (I'm thinking of the London suicide bombers, amongst others). My whole angle has been, in relation to who is to blame for all this? is that there are several factors/stakeholders involved, unfortunately because so many parties are involved in arming, indoctriniating, supplying safe houses etc it is a very difficult and uphill struggle to combat. Who do you target?. You get rid one one Bin Laden, another one will replace him. From my knowledge, and I may be wrong-but most terrorist cells operate independently and very rarely know from exactly whom the funding is coming from. For years the US were funding the IRA, but politically making a stand against Sinn Fein. The point is that everything is so messy in this arena, who can you really blame for what? That's why the 'enemy' is so difficult to identify. Let's be honest these extremist movements have been flourishing for the last 30 + years, and building up their cells with the help of governments from every corner of the world in a monetary sense. We all know that Al Queda was a training camp set up by the US to meet their own political objectives in that part of the world. The point is US foreign policy hasn't changed since WWII. They have set up dictators in various countries to counter communism, (post cold war) then the puppet they set up becomes too powerful so they go in dipslace them, and then put in their own person in again. Even now they are drawing up the Middle East peace plan. However, they cannot continue to interfere in other countries' politics or philosophies. If you ask me who is to blame, I will say the post WWII US/EU administrations and their foreign policies. They have armed, funded and politcially supported many of the groups that we see today attacking them on a religious basis.

I understand what you are saying-and I did not call you unintelligent-that was me remember? lol Anyway, this is not about who is intelligent or not-this is a discussion forum. Everbody's opinion is valid. That is the whole point of a discussion forum. You have your perspective, I have mine. However, what you say above I have been trying to say all along. Perhaps because I work in politics, and negotiate with countries every day-I come from that perspective that in order to find a middle ground, you need to look at the other side and then come to some sort of agreement. yes, fo course there's always a trade-off. This does not make my approach any less significant than others.

I did not belittle historical events that are contributing factors in assessing the world's problems of today, but for how long do we keep analysing and talking, isn't time for affirmative action?

Dara: Thanks for your comments I think they are very pertinent. I totally agree that the media could play a much bigger role in all this, its their duty. I also think the general public has a significant role. If we keep allowing the Bush's and the Blairs to come into power, then what do we expect?

Hope you'll all forgive me for not responding one by one to your comments-but I'm knackered (and have alot of work to do!)but perhaps on another post RAHUL BOSE can discuss the definition of a terrorist!

Take a look at Tony Blair's speech at the World Affairs Council 1.08.06. The 'Arc of extremism', sound familiar, to the 'Axis of Evil'???

http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_nt1.asp?a=42436&i=41029&L1=41004&L2=41029&d=-1

Just an excerpt from an article:

The end of the Blair era is a springboard for renewal

Parliament must reassert its rights as part of a new constitutional settlement if the current malaise in politics is to be tackled

Michael Meacher
Thursday August 3, 2006
The Guardian

The UN has now labelled the pulverisation of Lebanon an "illegal war", yet still the UK has not called unequivocally for a ceasefire. This defiance of British and international public opinion not only diminishes our standing in the eyes of the world, but also raises, yet again, the issue of how those in power are held to account for their decisions.

There are many such examples in Britain today. What mechanism is there to prevent the prime minister unilaterally giving support to a US attack on Iran, embroiling Britain in a conflict that the public overwhelmingly rejects?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1835953,00.html

Its time for the people to take action. Idealistic I know, but I have always believed in the power of public protest and will continue to do so, as it is a God given right for every human being on this planet to stand up for their rights.

Take it easy all,

Later

K

For those based in Delhi, who are interested:

CALL TO PROTEST ISRAEL'S DISPROPORTIONATE WAR AGAINST LEBANON AND GAZA

Dear friends,

We have watched with horror as Israel's disproportionate use of force
against the citizens of Lebanon and Palestine has increased daily and
with impunity in light of sanction for Israel from the United States
of America and the United Kingdom. Israel's aggression continues in
open defiance of calls from the rest of the international community
for an immediate cease-fire, and continues to take a heavy toll of
innocent life.

Until today, the 2nd of August, 850 Lebanese including 290 children
have been killed and 9,00,000 Lebanese refugees have been displaced in
response to the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah 22
days ago. The number of Israeli dead in the conflict thus far is 55,
including 19 civilians, as Hezbollah continues to target Israel with
rockets.

Despite this, yesterday, the European Union too provided implicit
sanction to Israel's disproportionate actions by failing to call for
an immediate and unconditional ceasefire. Almost immediately, Israel
has launched a ground invasion in southern Lebanon, involving tens of
thousands of troops.

We, the undersigned, condemn this brutal targeting of unarmed civilian
populations and the systematic destruction of the infrastructure of
Lebanon and Gaza. We demand an immediate and unconditional cease-fire
in Lebanon and in Gaza and that the leaders of Israel, the US and the
UK be tried for war crimes against the Lebanese and Palestinian
people. We mourn the loss of innocent Lebanese, Palestinian and
Israeli lives.

We urge groups and individuals to join in a citizen's protest against
Israel's targeting of civilians which goes against all laws of war and
ethics of combat.

Do come with banners, slogans and solidarity. Please do forward widely
information about the protest on all activist lists, and to the media.

When
Saturday 5th, 11 am
Where
Israeli Embassy, 3, Aurangzeb Road

(As police do not permit protests outside the embassy, the rendezvous
point is the UPSC building)

In solidarity,

Aarti Sethi, editor
Ahtushi Deshpande, travel writer
Aman Sethi, journalist
Amar Kanwar, filmmaker
Anand Vivek Taneja, researcher-writer
Aniruddha Shankar, concerned citizen
Anita Roy, editor
Anita Vasudev, writer
Annie Zaidi, journalist
Anubhav Gupta, writer
Apoorvanand, teacher and writer
Ashwin Aishwaria, artist
Charu Soni, journalist
Colin Fernandes, journalist
Danish Husain, actor & writer
Dharma Sears, educator
Gautam Bhan, activist
George Kurian, filmmaker
Harpreet Anand
Jaya Sharma, activist
Jeet Thayil, writer
Jennifer Dorr, writer
Julia Dutta, journalist
Kanchana Natarajan, educator
Kaushiki Rao
Lesley A. Esteves, journalist
Maria Mathai, educator
Mario D'Penha, historian-activist
Meenakshi Reddy Madhavan, writer
Monica Mody, writer
Narayani Gupta, historian
Niharika Gupta, editor
Ponni Arasu, activist
Pranav Kumar Singh, lawyer
Radhika Kolluru, lawyer
Samit Basu, writer
Sanjay Kak, filmmaker
Shakti Bhatt, editor
Shivam Vij, blogger-journalist
Shuddhabrata Sengupta, media practitioner
Siddharth Narrain, journalist
Sumit Baudh, lawyer
Sumit Roy, filmmmaker
Sunil Gupta, photographer
Susan M Koshy, writer
Vaibhav Vats, student

Dear Rahul,

While talking to my colleagues today, this thought occurred to me. Perhaps this is the case of "Clash of Civilizations (Sam Huntington)". If we think about it, this clash is between those who think there is just one way to live and those who think otherwise. As long as we lived in ghettoes, different philosophies and principles didn't matter so much. Waves of globalizations brought about by inventions of printing press, modern aviation and communication, internet have rendered the entire globe very small indeed. Given that, how do we reconcile the following ideas:

There is one God, and we are still waiting for one more prophet. Some clarity still needed in what is right for us.

There is one God, and his prophet was amongst us and will come again. Things have become clearer.

There is one God and his prophet came and left and no more expected. Everything you ever needed to know has been written.

There is one God and you are on your own.

Is there a God?

Due to rigid nature of Islamic faith and its insistence on Quoran being the final word, a conflict between Islam and the rest of the world is inevitable. Perhaps this is the root cause of present conflict, terrorism is just a symptom. Rooting out terrorism is like a mirage, because however you eliminate a few, many more will crop up to take their place. Are we witnessing the beginning of the third world war?

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

while, it is, in fact a clash of uncivilized. To conclude this, you only need to know who is fighting who. No need to philosophize.

"I am not here to score any points. You seemed to have certain prejudices or perceptions. I thought it would be worthwhile to correct it. That is all."

Well.. my friend.. the feeling is mutual! :-)

Hi Rahul,

This is Seema. I am interested in logical theme based movies which I believe you are portraying in your movies right now.

I have one such realistic story which may be of your interest. As I can't disclose it in this blog, could you please forward me your personal e-mail address to seema.kamat@gmail.com.

Many thanks!

Cheers,
Seema

I'm not sure, linguistically, what the term "terror", as used in the popular press, means anymore.

Is it affect(anger) or effect (fear). Or is it a transaction between two people of both of these? Like Cain and Abel? As in, "here: I'll trade ya. Martyrdom for a good whack on the head."

The term used in sentences today seems to have taken on a life of its own.

When Senate Republicans say, "Democrats are weak on terror," it sounds odd to me. Is it to say that they are weak on anger? On weak on fear?

Or are they saying that democrats are just screwing up the quality of the transaction altogether?