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Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path & The Paradox of our Times

DK Matai - August 27, 2006

The Noble Eightfold Path, re-discovered by The Buddha and other great holy Saints, is often described as the way to Nirvana, ie, rising above the Physical and Astral planes towards the Causal. Nirvana is desribed as the ineffable ultimate in which one has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion. There are the two other planes beyond that -- Par Brahamand and Sach Khand -- as Perfect Masters explain.

The Buddha literally means the Awakened or Enlightened One; Seer of the Inner Light up to Nirvana, which is the Causal plane. The title Buddha was given to Prince Siddhartha Gautama (583-463 BC), founder of Buddhism. Beyond the Causal plane, of course, is the need for The Perfect Spiritual Master to continue to show the way forwards on the inner journey of self-manifestation of the universal consciousness towards the fourth and fifth planes: Par Brahm and Sachkhand, ie, the True Home, where as Socrates in ancient Greece, stated, "Logos" or the Creating "Word" resides. The Buddhists refer to the two planes beyond Nirvana as Para-Nirvana and Mahapara-Nirvana.

The Noble Eightfold Path avoids the extreme of self-torture that weakens ones intellect and the extreme of self-indulgence that retards ones spiritual progress. It consists of the following eight factors:

1. Balanced Understanding
2. Balanced Thoughts
3. Balanced Speech
4. Balanced Action
5. Balanced Livelihood
6. Balanced Effort
7. Balanced Mindfulness
8. Balanced Concentration

1. Balanced Understanding is the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. In other words, it is the understanding of oneself as one really is. The keynote of Buddhism is this Balanced Understanding. Buddhism is based, as much, on knowledge and not on unreasonable belief.

2. Balanced Thoughts are threefold. They are:

(a) The thoughts of renunciation which are opposed to sense-pleasures.
(b) Kind thoughts which are opposed to ill-will.
(c) Thoughts of harmlessness which are opposed to cruelty.

These tend to purify the mind.

3. Balanced Speech deals with refraining from falsehood, stealing, slandering, harsh words and frivolous talks

4. Balanced Action deals with refraining from killing, stealing and unchastity. It helps one to develop a character that is self-controlled and mindful of right of others.

5. Balanced Livelihood deals with the five kinds of trades which should be avoided by a lay disciple. They are:

(a) trade in deadly weapons
(b) trade in animals for slaughter
(c) trade in slavery
(d) trade in intoxicants
(e) trade in poisons

Balanced Livelihood means earning ones living in a way that is not harmful to others.

6. Balanced Effort is fourfold, namely:

(a) the endeavour to discard evil that has already arisen.
(b) the endeavour to prevent the arising of unrisen evil.
(c) the endeavour to develop that good which has already arisen.
(d) the endeavour to promote that good which has not already arisen.

Effort is needed to cultivate Good Conduct or develop one's mind, because one is often distracted or tempted to take the easy way out of things. The Buddha teaches that attaining happiness and Enlightenment depends upon one's own efforts. Effort is the root of all achievement. If one wants to get to the top of a mountain, just sitting at the foot thinking about it will not bring one there. It is by making the effort of climbing up the mountain, step by step, that one eventually reaches the summit. Thus, no matter how great the Buddha's achievement may be, or how excellent His Teaching is, one must put the Teaching into practice before one can expect to obtain the desired result.

7. Balanced Mindfulness is also fourfold:

(a) mindfulness with regard to body
(b) mindfulness with regard to feeling
(c) mindfulness with regard to mind
(d) mindfulness with regard to mental objects.

Balanced Mindfulness is the awareness of one's deeds, words and thoughts.

8. Balanced Meditation

Meditation means the gradual process of training the mind to focus on a single inner eye and to remain fixed upon that without wavering. The constant practice of meditation helps one to develop a calm and concentrated mind and help to prepare one for the attainment of Wisdom and Enlightenment ultimately.
________________________________

Why is there a need for The Noble Eightfold Path in the 21st century?

This is because of "The Paradox of our Time" (attributed to a number of different sources)

1. The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider motorways, but narrower viewpoints.

2. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, but less time.

3. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment; more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness.

4. We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom.

5. We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often.

6. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbour.

7. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things.

8. We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice.

9. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less.

10. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less.

11. These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships.

12. These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill.

13. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete.

I. Remember, spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever.
II. Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side.
III. Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to you, because that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent.
IV. Remember, to say, "I love you" to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all "mean it". A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you.
V. Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again.
VI. Give time to love, give time to speak, and give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind.

AND ALWAYS REMEMBER:

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

[ENDS]

Please accept my humble apologies for any errors or omissions on my part.

With love and well wishes

PS The previous submissions to IntentBlog on similar topics were:

1. How to be happy? -- Ashtavakra Gita and Advaita

2. Interfaith Dialogue - Unity of Man & Conflict

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

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Posted by DK Matai at August 27, 2006 12:05 AM

Comments

Hi DK,

Thanks for that edifying post.

But why haven’t you listed the four Noble Truths of Buddhism? The four noble truths combined with the eightfold path are the essence of Buddhism. Let me list here those noble truths:

1) Life means suffering
2) The origin of suffering is attachment
3) The cessation of suffering is attainable
4) There’s a path to the cessation of suffering

The fourth truth, the path to the cessation of suffering, is expounded in the eight-fold path. Suffering, Buddha teaches, can be minimized, if we base our lives on the eight points enumerated by you above. The eightfold path is a sort of self-improvement course to help you attain Nirvana—freedom from the cycle of birth and death. We don’t want to die; the only way to overcome death is not to take birth at all.

From a practical standpoint, the most difficult things to cultivate in the eightfold path are listed under points No. 3 and 4—Balanced Speech and Balanced Action.

Mallika had to excuse herself for a few days to complete her book, and we had a “new Sheriff in town”! Now, would it be good enough if we tread on some paths not guided by some inner voice, but by fear of a disciplinarian? Will I have successfully completed Step 3 of the path if I refrain from writing harsh and frivolous words just because I don’t want to face the humiliation of my comments being deleted?

As to Step 4—Balanced Action. Killing and stealing we won’t have much trouble with. But complete chastity and abstinence from intoxicants! Now I know why there are so few Buddhas!! I am a teetotaler and also chaste :)’. Do I stand a better chance of attaining Nirvana than some of my fellow Intentbloggers like Kamini, who drinks like a fish and smokes like a chimney?

Are there offsets allowed? If someone who can’t help drinking and being unchaste, can they make it up by being very generous, say in matters of donating money to worthy causes?

Dear DK, please resolve this dilemma. You certainly have a better understanding of Buddha’s teachings than any of us. I think each one of us should have a fair chance of a shot at Nirvana!

Sanjeev

1. Posted by klumsyklutz on August 27, 2006 05:18 AM

Dear DK - Why did you find it neccessary to replace the word "right" with the word "balanced".

The eightfold path is :

Right Understanding
Right Thought
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

By replacing the word "right" with "balanced" you completely dilute and muddy the teachings. Most of us (but not all) know what is right and what is wrong. What is beneficient and what is not. But "balance" is much more open to subjective interpretation. I think all you do is muddy the water by trying to put your own spin on someone elses teachings.

I know you meant well, but perhaps you are excusing yourself and some short comings in your own life by choosing balance over what is right.

Another misnomer is that the eightfold path leads one to enlightenment or nirvana. Of itself it does not. The eightfold path serves two purposes. It is the groundwork or foundation for enlightenment, for you cannot recognise the face of God and discover your higher self if you do not have the right understanding, if your thoughts are polluted, if you talk nonsense, if you behave badly, if your livelihood is dishonest or corrupt, if you do not make the proper effort in life, if you are not vigilant about your every thought, and if you meditate lazily and allow your mind to wonder and dream.

But even if you do all these things right, you have no chance of discovering Nirvana if you have not "love".

Namaste'.

2. Posted by Taomaster on August 27, 2006 06:21 AM

Oh, and the second purpose is to cleanse your Karma in preparation, for it is unlikely that one can achieve enlightenment with bad Karma.

3. Posted by Taomaster on August 27, 2006 06:26 AM

And we have NOT cleaned up the air!!

4. Posted by Taomaster on August 27, 2006 06:32 AM

perhaps the correct meaning of 'right' is 'balanced'..

lol...so difficult to discuss, isn't it?!

perhaps the concept of wrongness is 'not balanced'..only desiring one side of the stick...

lol...again..

One contains all..
ying/yang..
love, Carolyn

5. Posted by carolyn_wind on August 27, 2006 06:38 AM

Dear Sanjeev, thank you for adding the four noble truths, which are observation points on the plight of this world and highlight the need for the eight fold self-improvement path. The answer to your question on comments and deletions lies in exercising balance in speech and effort. Not too hot and not too cold! Not too little and not too much! On trade-offs and exchange, Lord Krishna said that good karma and bad karma are both like chains of gold and iron. Reaping rewards and punishments for past actions are both chains albeit of different types. There is no dilemma at all, it all lies in the pespective of the player as the Great Spiritual Masters have explained. Attached-detachment is what they call for and seeing oneself as a witness rather than the Doer, for only the Universal Consciousness is the Doer!

Dear Taomaster, your question has been answered by Carloyn. Thank you, Carolyn. It is the way that Sanskrit is translated. The word "right" doesn’t quite capture the essence of the Sanskrit word "samya" or "sama" which may be better translated as balanced or complete. What is right and what is wrong is a matter of perspective. What so ever is balanced is better. Part of the reason why the world is becoming the way it is, lies in looking at things as good or bad, right or wrong. N'est-ce pas? Yet, the shades of grey abound and we have to be able to balance across those multiple-variables.

Apologies for any errors or omissions in understanding your thoughts.

With love

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

6. Posted by DK Matai on August 27, 2006 06:59 AM

Always inclined to read the wisdom of the seer; with great anticipation of a learned reading.

thankyou DK... you have brought so much valuable positiveness to Intent since your arrival!!

North

7. Posted by North on August 27, 2006 07:20 AM

Dear DK,

Maybe the answer to your question about the paradox of the 21st. century is that the west still knows very little about the teachings of the Buddha. Most of us didn't grow up with the Noble 8-Fold Path.

In the west, in particular the US, we grew up with the concepts of individual freedom and liberty, so we spend too much, drinking, smoking, and eating too much, enjoying more - enjoying less etc. We choose what we choose, and in the west maybe in the east as well, learning or understanding the 8-fold noble path takes a tremendous amount of discipline.

Heck, you even find challenges to your post by other knowledgeable IB'ers.

Thanks DK for your very enlightening posts. I think these teachings can go a long way in the world.

Steve

8. Posted by Ambasteve on August 27, 2006 07:32 AM

Dear North, the wisdom of the seer is always that of the Perfect Spiritual Masters. The learned reading is how much we follow their teachings. It is our Master's teachings which inspire us to add some random thoughts, I have not much to offer.

Dear Steve, the subliminal messages of the posts are not really mine so I can take no credit. Who am I save a nobody. Together collectively, we are a special group. We enjoy that, don't we?

I apologise for any errors or omissions on my part.

With love

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

9. Posted by DK Matai on August 27, 2006 07:56 AM

DK, thanks for your response... we are indeed a collective energy; each using our strength where needed, in the chain-links of life. Every link, serves a vital importance. None, are more important than the other.. this is a great message from Lord Buddha.

North

10. Posted by North on August 27, 2006 08:07 AM

Dear DK,

Thanks for starting this important topic.

I like the translation of "balanced" instead of "right" because it is a reminder that things are not black and white - and thus, the need for me to remain fully present and aware in each unique situation. And yet, the need for "right" effort is particularly important for me at this time. As you said, it can be easy to become distracted or tempted to take the easy way out. I have seen this within myself so often! What has helped me is to cultivate compassion for myself (you could say balanced thoughts and balanced mindfulness towards myself.) This way when I realize that I have fallen short in my efforts, instead of punishing myself or dwelling in self-pity, I can more quickly get back up and on track again.

Love, Kristin

ps. I'm curious about the Perfect Masters that you often refer to. Perhaps you could share more about your experience in that regard at some point?

11. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 27, 2006 09:05 AM

Dear Kristin

Thank you for your posting and I find the IntentBlog's Socratic Dialogue to be an extremelely valuable resource, because I learn so much. You ask about the Perfect Masters that are often referred to...

The Perfect Masters have made my life better and better and everything that I have been able to achieve in a modest way and learn from in a humble way in this life appears to be based on their company, following their invaluable teachings of self-improvement, their meditation techniques and their path of love called Sant Mat.

The Perfect Masters teach Surat Shabda Yoga or Soul--Word--Union or Spirit--Universal-Consciousness--Connectivity, which is a process of meditation and contemplation.

My Spiritual Master was His Holiness Sant Ajaib Singh ji, who was the disciple of His Holiness Master Kirpal. I was initiated in 1982 on meditation techniques of both light and sound connectivity. Since then He and His teachings have guided me forward in becoming a better human being.

My Spiritual Master left His physical body in 1997. In the days gone, His Holiness Sant Ajaib's representation in the US for Surat Shabda Yoga was via The Sant Bani Mission and School in Sanbornton, New Hampshire, and via the Sant Bani Charity in the UK, amongst other noted points of presence in most major countries on the five continents.

I make an open declaration in my biographical profile in regard to my pro bono activities with San Bani charities. More information about the present activities of Sant Bani worldwide can be gleaned from www.ajaib.com and the books and lectures published over the decades can be viewed at www.mediaseva.com and wwww.mediaseva.org.

If you do visit www.mediaseva.org then you will find a lot of books which can be downloaded electronically, free-of-charge. You may want to have a look at The Way of The Saints.

Trust this answers your questions holistically and truthfully.

With love to you and family

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

12. Posted by DK Matai on August 27, 2006 03:04 PM

DK - thanks, but I am not convinced. I have no quibble with your ideas on right & wrong", and agree about the problems of its duality. However, beneficent is actually closer still than balanced, because the Buddha’s words are not about being neutral or indifferent. Without polarizing into right or wrong his guidance is more to do with doing things in a way to avoid suffering. Therefore it is doing things in a way that is beneficent with a holistic rather than a personal or selfish view. Again, "balanced" isn't it. It does not make clear the beneficent. If I do good and bad by equal measure I can argue that I have been balanced, no?

This is the first time I have heard the term "balanced" used in this way to reinterpret the eightfold path and the precepts. I know some Westerners will like to agree with you, because in the west they like the idea of balance. To them balance means BOTH SIDES not neither side. They prefer a balanced answer to the Truth!!

A lie is not the opposite of the truth, it is a lie. Truth IS.

And if you are able to see without a dualistic approach, then you would see the truth of this. But in fact your very post with the paradox of superficial opposites is demonstrating balance. A balance which is continually in conflict with itself and with us.

These are good ways to live because they will bring beneficences therefore, interpretively, "good" outcomes.

It is a shame his holiness died before his work was complete.

13. Posted by Taomaster on August 27, 2006 06:07 PM

Dear Taomaster

You may be right and I like the word beneficient too. If it works better for you and others, that is the objective. Yes, the loss of His Holiness before his work was complete in 1997 was not good and I personally suffered a set back in becoming a better person in so many ways.

Perfect Saints and Mahatmas are the mechanism for the world to remain in balance. They teach us so many beautiful virtues by simply being there like: tolerance, sincerity, compassion, contentment and truthfulness. It is said that one can measure the depth of a Holy man on the basis of how much tranquility he can bring to a troubled mind.

Please forgive me for any errors or omissions. You know a lot more and I am just a little child playing by the sea shore with pebbles in my hand. There is a vast ocean out there.

Yours humbly

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

14. Posted by DK Matai on August 27, 2006 11:54 PM

DKMatai, this is a great blogpost, and a wonderful discussion. Sanskrit is a very compact language. "SAMA" means right, balanced, equal, proper among others. I remember reading right understanding,purpose,speech etc.

DK may I add the following to the discussion??
What are the ten opportunities all of us have so we can follow the eightfold path?
1. Having a human body.
2. Being born in a land where Dharma has spread.
3. Having all of one's senses intact.
4. Not reverting to evil ways.
5. Having confidence in the 3 jewels, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
6.Buddha has been born.
7. Buddha taught Dharma.
8. Dharma still exists.
9. There are still followers who have realised the meaning and essence of the teachings of Buddha.
10. There are benevolent sponsors.
Thanks for reading. God bless.

15. Posted by geetajayaram on August 28, 2006 06:45 AM

Dear DK,
Thank you for your reply and information regarding the Perfect Masters and Sant Mat. I'm looking forward to reading more on the website you mentioned. Being in the presence of enlightened beings is certainly a blessing and what is interesting to me is that you are never so sure where they will turn up. You mentioned in your initial post the planes beyond the causal. I've not been inclined to set my sites that far as I'm just trying to do the best that I can where I am right now and want to learn to give my best effort in each moment. However, I am seeing the need for a more in depth meditation practice for myself so I can remain balanced, clear, focused and with more awareness have more to give. Besided the silent mantra-based meditation that I practice and teach I've also been very drawn to some of the different kundalini yoga meditations which have benefited me greatly.

Here is a question for you: Do you believe that the Perfect Masters need to be in physical form in order to guide us? Or that with the proper awareness we can tune into their teachings and allow ourselves to be guided from within?

Also, I wanted to share that when I first saw one of your posts and clicked on your bio I didn't even read through it all, thinking you must be so different from me. (Partially, an indication of some left over insecurity on my part regarding my intelligence and background.) Yet after I read some of your replies to others on the blog and responded to you myself, I began to feel a real connection - and not so different at all. As you said, you learn so much from the interaction here. So do I. I am very grateful for that and wanted to share that I appreciated your caring and thoughtful interactions here which is what helped me to understand that there was no real difference between us.

Love and Blessings,
Kristin

16. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 28, 2006 07:02 AM

Dear Taomaster,
I like the term "beneficent" too. I hadn't heard that translation before and appreciate attention being draw to maintaining a holistic viewpoint.
I smiled reading your comment that some westerners think balanced means both sides, because I know how easy it can sometimes be for our minds to justify poor behavior or taking the easy way out.

Love, Kristin

17. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 28, 2006 07:12 AM

I wonder if there are any orphans, widows, or downtrodden to lift up and serve in the causal planes?

Steve

18. Posted by Ambasteve on August 28, 2006 08:10 AM

DK: I've particularly enjoyed the changing tides-of-focus that your themes have initiated for the Intentblog audience--very much enjoy the interplay of voices such as Taomaster's, Geeta's, and others, (and as always--Kristin's!) as the Socratic Dialogue continues to deepen with the contributions from your staff at The Philanthropia--(and your opinions are helpful too, DK--couldn't help teasing you!!!).

I hope you will continue to open avenues for further inquiry and discussion regarding the "other planes--the higher planes," such as the causal, and higher even than that.

Certainly in the modern Western world we have greatly usurped the actually meaning of "right-mindedness" as it was originally intended--the "need to be right," even and especially when we are not, completely obliterates the possibilities for actually comprehending the differences between "wrong-mindedness, right-mindedness, and whole-mindedness."

It seems that The Buddha, and so many other teachers who've followed along similar "in"-roads regarding the notions of right-mindedness were simply trying to establish a solid foothold for accessing interior pathways which then lead to "whole-mindedness," with right-mindedness being a requisite plateau-of-thinking/behaving for re-unification with The Source energies.

It also seems that Rumi was pointing at this very state-of-consciousness, and it's genuine existence as an experiential reality, when he referred to a field, beyond right-and-wrong, and that "he would meet us there!"

No truer playground than that one could be the experiential reward for coming to terms with an understanding of what rightmindedness might actually be about--or rather, "really" be about, as It pertains to actuality, n'est pas?!

At the very beginning of an epic masterpiece known as "The Life and Teaching of The Masters of The Far East," in the foreward, the author finishes with, "The Masters accept that Buddha represents the Way to Enlightenment, but they clearly set forth that Christ IS Enlightenment, or a state of consciousness for which we are all seeking--the Christ light of every individual; therefore, the light of every child that is born into the world."

It is a delight that both Keith and Geeta have joined in the literary journey of reading this composite masterpiece of ageless wisdom.

It strikes me that these planes that are higher in frequency than the physical and astral might very well be "Rumi's field," that most-wonderful playground, and that vibrationally speaking, those planes are "not there," they are Here, and found only in the Now!

Just some thoughts as I continue to marvel in the many wonderful perspectives that your blogs continue to generate, DK. Thank You--Dave

19. Posted by David on August 28, 2006 10:01 AM

Dear Kristin

Please note that my knowledge of the domain of meditation techniques is non-existant and therefore I am not capable of offering any valuable guidance.

From the little that I understand as a child playing by the sea shore, the Perfect Masters are able to transmit more Grace and Love in the physical form than they are able, purely in the vibrational modes, although they are present in all the modes simultaneously -- Physical, Astral, Causal, Par Brahm and Sach Khand.

Further, we ourselves are not only in the Physical plane but also have our alternative modes of existence in the Astral and Causal planes -- our three 'bodies'. Sometimes we connect with an individual straightaway, the Perfect Masters say, because our spirits recognise them from the Astral or Causal planes.

In our physical body, the maximum receptivity for charging and love, is there for the physical manifestation, although the vibrational modes of Perfect Spiritual Masters can and do provide guidance at all times.

When we are guided by their vibrational modes, that is an inner guidance. Both initiates and non-initiates have cited several examples over the years of this type of guidance, which eventually may lead to a face-to-face dialogue in the physical form preceded and succeeded by vibrational mode manifestations -- called spiritual experience.

Please note, again, that my knowledge of this is negligible and whatever I may state, it is only of significance when applied at a personal level. You are best off, finding out about these domains personally and not relying on anything that I may say -- for it may be presented incorrectly.

The talks of the Perfect Masters do justice to this subject in so much that they speak from experience as travellers in those hallowed domains, I speak as a humble disciple, who knows next to nothing and has not perfected my meditation.

There is no difference at all between all the IntentBloggers for we are all human beings born of the same flesh and blood and carrying the same essence which connects us to the Universal Consciousness. In that proclamation, I am sure, you are absolutely right.

I am glad you did not dwell on my biographical profile. There is nothing worth dwelling on anyway. Dwelling on the profiles of Spiritual Masters and gaining from their life-making experiences is a different matter altogether. That is an extremely fruitful exercise.

Please forgive me for any errors or omissions.

With love in My Master's 'Word'

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

20. Posted by DK Matai on August 28, 2006 10:20 AM

DK, here is something else I thought off.
What are the eight wordly concerns that keep us away from the path??
1. Attachment to gain.
2. Attachment to praise.
3. Attachment to pleasure.
4. Attachment to fame.
5. Aversion to loss.
6. Aversion to pain.
7. Aversion to blame.
8. Aversion to bad reputation.

What are the four reminders??

1. Our precious human birth.
2. The truth of impermanance.
3. The law of karma.
4. Futility of wandering in Samsara(Life).

DK, I thought of writing the story of UPAGUPTA,the disciple of Buddha, written by Rabindranath Tagore. May be you can post it. It will be such a beautiful addition to the existing blogpost and comments. I believe it illustrates the heart of teachings of Buddha.

DK, we the devotees of Charleston WV had the opportunity of being initiated into," OM TARE TUTTURE TURE SWAHA" mantra recently by someone who received it from His Holiness, Dalai Lama. It was a beautiful ceremony,and we all felt so blessed. God bless.

David thank you. I am reading that material at a slow pace. I am where the masters walk on water, and bilocate etc. It is very interesting. I was in the presence of a master who could walk on water etc in my childhood. He was the GURU for my family. He was an ascetic, a siddha, a truly great soul, and compassion incarnate. I love the material,and I have read similar stuff before.God bless.

21. Posted by geetajayaram on August 28, 2006 10:53 AM

Dear DK,
I briefly looked at the mediaseva.com website. So, are all of the Perfect Masters Sikhs? Are there different groups of Sikhs? I suppose that must be the case. I see that I can download information on japji - which interestingly enough I've been reading each morning for the past couple of weeks.

My question regarding being guided from within came because of an experience I had with a Sikh master who comes to town every so often. He's the one who has given me the meditations that I've benefited from and I feel so grateful for his assistance. He also helped my husband and I with something and has met our children.

Love, Kristin

22. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 28, 2006 11:10 AM

Dear DK,
It is great to read again about the Eightfold Path. It resonates within me. I have been practicing and teaching Ashtanga, the unity discipline of the eight limbs as taught by Patanjali. But I believe that both paths are wonderful because they teach the same truth.

As regards the Paradox of Our Time, it's synchronistic: a friend of mine sent it to me a week or so ago and I liked. Now it's brought to my awareness again! There is probably something I need to pay attention to. Thanks.
Love,
Donatella

23. Posted by Donatella on August 28, 2006 11:34 AM

Hi DK,
All these below seems quite obvious for a lay person to avoid doing but I think there is more to this than what it seems

(a) trade in deadly weapons
I think this also involves not only to just trade in deadly weapons but also to avoid anything to do with weapons like designing,financing,building,investing in these type of industries etc.

(b) trade in animals for slaughter
I think this also includes eating meat,inflicting pain on animals,investing in companies that are engaged in animal food processing

(c) trade in slavery
Physical slavery is quite obvious but what about psychological slavery which to me is basically owning or possessing someone.What about a leader who wants people to do something and if they fail to do it, he either punishes them physically or psychologically (like not providing them food,shelter,education etc.)?

(d) trade in intoxicants
here again physical intoxicants are quite obvious like drugs and liquors.What about psychological intoxicants like most of the entertainment industry which includes video games,music,movies, television etc.( there are of course some good programs)? Dont you think anyone who is engaged in producing,financing,investing and creating is also engaged in this trade?

(e) trade in poisons
Physical poisons are quite obvious.What about psychological poisons like nationalism,greed,violence,religious fundamentalism? dont you think that people engaged in these activities are also trading in poisons?

The point I am trying to make is that this problem of engaging earning ones livelihood is not trivial.it is very complex because there are a million factors that one should consider.Basically the whole society is corrupt but at the same time we should live and earn a livelihood.
We generally would like to think that we are very moral and we are earning the right livelihood but when we consider the things that I talked about, the problem is close to home.

I am myself engaged in designing softwares for mobile phones but the way phones are used these days makes me wonder whether I am in the right profession.
What are your thoughts?

regards,
Prabhakar

24. Posted by prabhakar on August 28, 2006 02:05 PM

Dear Dave, thank you for your thoughts. We are all on a journey together. I learn so much from your reflections and all the other responders within this Socratic Dialogue.

Dear Geeta, thank you for your post. I think you should post the story of Upagupta on this Socratic Dialogue thread itself. Go right ahead. We are all tuned in.

Dear Kristin, all the Perfect Masters are not Sikh. Socrates and Pythagoras in the past are considered to be Perfect Masters in ancient Greece. Similarly, Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem; the Saint Poets Rumi and Hafez in Persia; Lao Tsu in China; and Kabir Sahib, on the river Ganges in Benares. The ten Sikh Gurus are also considered to be Perfect Spiritual Masters.

In the present grouping of Perfect Masters, His Holiness Master Kirpal, The President of the World Fellowship of Religions was originally a Sikh and so was His Holiness Sant Ajaib but the present Perfect Spiritual Master -- His Holiness Sant Sadhu Ram -- based in Rajasthan is not a Sikh, but of Hindu origin, although he does don a white turban [www.ajaib.com].

Japji is a favourite and there is a beautiful translation of it done by His Holiness Master Kirpal which is worth reading and it is available from www.mediaseva.org.

Dear Donatella, thank you for your thoughts.

With love to all

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

25. Posted by DK Matai on August 28, 2006 02:17 PM

Dear Prabhakar, thank you for your analysis, which is multi-facetted and far reaching in regard to ethics. This is a big debate in its own right.

When there is somebody who manufactures a knife, which can be used to cut vegetables to prepare food, or it can be used to cut the neck of a live bird or animal, where does the knife-maker stand?

When there is a software engineer who works on developing a mobile telephone with a Java Virtual Machine interface and on that a user may choose to run pornographic material, where does the software engineer stand?

When there is an automotive engineer who designs a family saloon car for leisure and work, which is then used to kill a crossing pedestrian either by accident or otherwise, where does the automotive engineer stand?

I would suggest that where the functionality is not specific but general purpose, and some of those purposes can be determined by the user to be negative or harmful to society, the consequences of those actions are entirely borne by the executor of the mis-deed and not the designer of the product, unless there is a design fault. And, the knife, mobile phone or car automatically harms.

Having said that, this is a difficult issue, and I do not say that my view is right. It is a view on the basis of which I design software as an engineer and supervise the design of software systems.

Trust that this reply helps. Sorry for any errors or omissions.

With love and warm wishes

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

26. Posted by DK Matai on August 28, 2006 02:30 PM

Thanks, DK. Obviously, there is a lot I don't know and I appreciate the information regarding the Perfect Masters.

I really like this quote from the website you just listed:

"If we will keep our thoughts pure, it will be very easy for us to do the Simran. The more pure our thoughts, the easier it will become for us to do the Simran. And when our Simran is happening correctly and completely, then Master will manifest within us without our even requesting Him."
- Sant Ajaib Singh Ji

It reminds me of the first part of a Sanskrit Chant that I often repeat which can be translated as: "Pure or impure or experiencing any state or situation, he who remembers God (Lotus eyed Visnu) is pure in and out." (Remembrance of God is what is purity and nothing else.)

All the best to you.
Love,
Kristin

27. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 28, 2006 02:50 PM

Dear Kristin

Thank you for the same.

Yes, that is a beautiful quote by His Holiness Sant Ajaib Singh ji, who was my Spiritual Master.

Please note that according to religious texts Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Operator), Mahesh or Shiva (Destroyer) are manifestations (sons) of Kal Niranjan, who is the Lord and controller of the three planes -- Causal, Astral and Physical (CAP).

The Perfect Spiritual Masters seek to acquaint and take their disciples on to the fifth or final plane, which is Sach Khand or True Abode. Once there the cycle of birth and death is eliminated. Sach Khand is beyond the Causal, Astral and Physical planes -- according to the Perfect Masters -- and is separated by the Par Brahm.

Again, I beg your forgiveness for any errors or omissions. I do not know much about the spiritual realm being a lowly disciple, who has not perfected his meditation.

With love and warm wishes

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

28. Posted by DK Matai on August 28, 2006 03:06 PM

Dear DK,
I really appreciate your clarification regarding the different planes. Yet, while I'd love to be aquainted with the fifth or final plane, it's not something I can really comprehend because it is so far beyond my experience. I just want to do this life justice. I want to be the best that I can be, honoring myself and all others and serving in the highest way possible. Which probably means, simply being myself.

So for me, the distinctions particularly between the higher planes blurs. I'm not sure how to change that. Except to keep meditating and cultivating an awareness of timelessness and stillness amid change and activity. Then perhaps someday I'll catch a glimpse and have a real idea what you are speaking about.

Love, Kristin

29. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 28, 2006 08:37 PM

Dear Kristin

Thank you for your thoughts and they are understandable. To echo what you say, it is written in the Gurubani by the Perfect Spiritual Master His Holiness Guru Arjan Dev (1563-1606):

"Jiya jant Sab Tudh Upaye,
Jit jit Bhana Tit Tit Laye."

[All sentient beings have been created by You,
According to Your will, You position them.]

"Tudh bin duja avar na koi,
Sub Tera khel Akhara jiyo."

[There is none other except You,
All this universe is Your playground.]

His Holiness Arjan Dev was the fifth Sikh Guru and the first Sikh martyr: He gave up his life for religious tolerance. His Holiness Arjan Dev laid the foundation of the Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib) in Amritsar. He also designed the concept of four doors in a Gurdwara, proclaiming that "My faith is for the people of all castes and all creeds from whichever direction they come and to whichever direction they bow."

The greatest contribution He made was to compile all of the past Gurus' writings into one book, now the holy scripture: the Guru Granth Sahib. It was this holy book that made Him a martyr.

Guru Arjan Dev included the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim saints which he considered consistent with the teachings of Sikhism and the Gurus.

In 1606, the Muslim Emperor Jahangir ordered that He be tortured and sentenced to death after He refused to remove all inter-faith references from the Holy book.

He was made to sit on a burning hot sheet while boiling hot sand was poured over his burnt body. After enduring five days of unrelenting torture His Holiness Guru Arjan Dev was taken for a bath in the river. As thousands watched he entered the river never to be seen again.

With love and well wishes

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

30. Posted by DK Matai on August 28, 2006 11:16 PM

Dear DK,
Thanks again for the information. I'm very curious to read the Guru Granth Sahib now and also would someday enjoy visiting the Golden Temple. To stand in such places must be quite an experience.

Love, Kristin

31. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 29, 2006 08:44 AM

Dear Kristin

Having visited the Harmandir Sahib at Amristar in the early 1980s, I can only say that it is a grand affair like St Peter's Basilica at the Vatican in Rome and yet the peace and solace which eventually comes can only come from within, no matter how grand and opulent the architecture.

In 1984, during Operation Blue Star, Harmandir Sahib was semi-destroyed owing to extremists who took refuge there. The true indestructible Harmandir (Divine Temple) with the true Amritsar (Pool of Nectar) is in our within and that is where it ought to be exprienced in all its radiant glory, according to the Perfect Masters.

Gurubani (Divine Word) is worth reading and it includes the Jap ji and other holy books you are already reading, referring to, and conversing about!

We are all on a journey towards self-improvement and we all get by with a little bit of help from our friends. The truer the friend the better!

With love

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

32. Posted by DK Matai on August 29, 2006 09:15 AM

Dear DK,
Yes, I completely agree, it is to be experienced within. Still, the child in me wants to go places and experience them with my 5 senses! Perhaps someday I shall. But if I don't, that will be okay too, because I know what I truly seek is within and so right here within my own home. And this is such a beautiful place too, where my family and I live and share our lives together.

Love, Kristin

33. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 29, 2006 02:31 PM

Dear Kristin

Yes, we must preserve the child in our within for as William Wordsworth remarked, "The Child is the father of Man!" or per the Vedas "The Soul is the individualised Universal Consciousness!"

With love

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

34. Posted by DK Matai on August 29, 2006 02:51 PM

Dear DK,

I am sorry I felt compelled to correct such an accomplished and world wise man as yourself, I am sure you meant well and the post was worthy. I am only concerned for the aspirant's understanding.

I have just looked at your profile and read a little about your organisations - now there's a paradox.

35. Posted by Taomaster on August 29, 2006 03:17 PM

Dear Kristin,

I can completely identify with your feeling that it is nigh impossible to comprehend the highest planes. As a fellow initiate of Sant Ajaib Singh, I perhaps represent the other end of the gamut than my dear brother, DK. I did not study or read any books on spirituality and knew very little about the philosophy and background of the Sant Mat tradition when I was initiated by Sant Ajaib Singh. It was as Sant Kirpal Singh said (and I paraphrase), that spirituality can’t be taught, it must be caught.

To this day, many years later, the esoteric descriptions of higher planes and even the inner journey are not what inspire me to meditate and follow this path. It is rather the universal spiritual traditions (love, forgiveness, grace, humility) and my experiences of them in day-to-day life as they emanate through our living Master, Sadhu Ram Ji. There is no more powerful way to learn for me than to have those experiences. Sometimes they come directly from Him and sometimes they come through others but they always bear the "divine" stamp.

To meditate is to struggle with the mind. Sant Ajaib Singh would tell us that the devotee doesn’t always know what progress is being made behind the veil. It is being safe-guarded until that day when we can comprehend it for what it really is. Until then, we have our spiritual marching orders...to live up to the teachings as best we can and then turn the rest over to Him. What is in our hearts, our minds, and what our intent is - is known. I have always taken solace in that because we are human, we have to live in the world, and it is pretty much guaranteed (at least in my case) that we will fall down repeatedly on this slippery slope of becoming “spiritual.” Fortunately, the sooner we do get back up and going, the sooner we find that we are at least one body length closer to our goal...especially as there really is no “wrong” way to go. It’s all part of the divine plan and part of our curvy, loop de loop path homeward.

Yours in Faith,
Tanna Drapkin

36. Posted by Tanna D on August 29, 2006 06:22 PM

DK, what I have written so far in previous comments on this thread come from different books. I am not sure of the sources. None of it is mine. I had researched this subject some time back.

What I am about to write comes from an audio-cassette, from Chopra center, it is part of a dialogue between Deepak and Bob Thurman.This story is told in verse, but I am writing it in prose. It is written by Rabindranath Tagore.

The Story of UPAGUPTA.
UPAGUPTA, the disciple of Buddha, lay asleep on the dust by the city of Mathura. Lamps were all out, doors were all shut, stars were all hidden by mirky sky of August. Whose feet were those tinkling with anklets touching his breast all of a sudden?

He woke up startled. The light from the woman's lamp struck his forgiving eyes. It was the dancing girl starred with jewels, clouded with a pale blue mantle, drunk with the wine of her youth.She lowered her lamp and saw the young face austerely beautiful.Forgive me young ascetic said the woman graciously. Come to my house, the dusty earth is not a fit bed for you. The ascetic answered,"woman go on your way, when the time is right I will come to you".Suddenly the black night showed its teeth in a flash of lightening. The storm growled from the corner of the sky, and the woman trembled in fear.

The branches of the wayside trees were aching with blossom. Gay notes of the flute came floating in the warm spring air from afar.The citizens had gone to the woods to the festival of flowers. From the mid sky gazed the full moon on the shadows of the silent town. The young ascetic was walking in the lonely street, while overhead the lovesick birds urged from the mango branched their sleepless plaint. Upagupta passed through the city gates and stood at the base of the rampart.

What woman lay in the shadows at his feet, struck with the black pestilence, her body spotted with sores, hurriedly driven away from the town?? The ascetic sat by her side, taking her head on his knees, moistened her lips with water, smeared her body with balm. Who are you merciful one? asked the woman. The time at last has come to visit you, and I am here replied the young ascetic.

DK, I absolutely love this story. As you know the heart of teachings of Gautama Buddha is compassion, Karuna, daya, or kindness. Don't you think this beautiful story tells that well??

Sorry for the delay in posting it. I appreciate you interacting with us. God bless you always.

37. Posted by geetajayaram on August 29, 2006 07:37 PM

Dear Tanna,
Thank you. I appreciate what you have shared about how you are an experiential learner too.

Also, you said, "Sant Ajaib Singh would tell us that the devotee doesn’t always know what progress is being made behind the veil. It is being safe-guarded until that day when we can comprehend it for what it really is." That "touched" me - probably because I tend to struggle more than I need to and to be too hard on myself. Everything in it's own time... Why all this struggle and fear of simply letting go? That's my challenge. To experience the true meaning of faith and love.

All the best to you.
Love, Kristin

ps. Well, at least it's one of my challenges!

38. Posted by Kristin Masterton on August 29, 2006 08:35 PM

Dear Taomaster, you are more than welcome to correct me anytime; there is little that we retain, and what we retain, we also forget sometimes. I am myself a student and don't know much. I just happen to have had the company of Great Spiritual Masters, who continue to make us better step by step.

Dear Tanna, very beautifully put and thank you so much for those uplifting remembrances.

Dear Geeta, thank you for sharing the divine story of excellence of Upagupta, and it carries the crux of humanity within it.

Dear Kristin, I am glad you appreciated Tanna's contribution, as did all of us. As the Perfect Spiritual Master's have said, "Spirituality is a journey and not a destination."

Pardon me for any errors or omissions.

With love

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

39. Posted by DK Matai on August 29, 2006 11:20 PM

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