Hi DK,

Good post. But it didn’t tell me anything that I didn’t know already! Intellectually grasping these spiritual ideas doesn’t get you anywhere. You have to live and breathe these truths. Someone once asked Osho Rajneesh: “What is the difference between an Enlightened human being and a non-enlightened one”? Osho answered: “The difference is only of awareness; the enlightened one is aware that he is enlightened!”

When you speak of separation of the soul from the body, you endorse the concept of reincarnation. Gita tells us that the soul never dies. Death is just like changing clothes for the soul! This is also clinically substantiated by Dr Brian Weiss in “Many Lives, Many Masters”. He had a patient who remembered all of her previous lives. In a state of hypnosis, she told him how the soul after leaving the body merges with the Supreme Being, which she remembered as a “brilliant light”.

In India we hear day in day out about cases of reincarnation. Little kids recalling minute details of places they’ve never seen, people they’ve never met. But they all happen to be belonging to Hindu households! I have never heard about a Muslim recalling a previous birth!

The question then arises: how do you reconcile the idea of non-dualism with tolerance? I don’t think any religion other than Hinduism believes in the concept of soul being separate from body; the soul being indestructible; being something that never dies and after each death starts searching pregnant wombs till it evolves itself fully to merge with the Supreme Being, the “brilliant light”, which is also known as “Moksha”, the liberation from the cycle of life and death.

I would like to know what the holy Koran has to say about death and soul. If the Truth is one unalterable ponderable then let’s arrive at it by putting all the great religious texts side by side.

Sanjeev

dear Sanjeev

is it possible that children who remember previous lives in Muslim households keep quiet about it, having already absorbed the basic restrictions of their faith?

i can recall thinking about spiritual matters when i about 3 or 4 years old, and deciding to keep quiet, since what i believed didn't fit with what the rest of my family said they believed.

Dear DK,
One of my favorite 'sages' of happiness - and wisdom - is from a little beagle dog, named Snoopy.

Have you found the 'formula' contained in the Ashtavakra Gita to work for you?

With love,
~ Kate

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Happiness Is A Warm Puppy'
by Charles Schultz.
He created the comic strip called Peanuts, and a wonderful cast of characters, centered around the protaganist - Charlie Brown, and his faithful friend/dog, Snoopy.

The 20 points listed above are very true but they are not easy to understand for an uninitiated person.It is very difficult to make a human being understand that he shud rise above the illusions that are created by the physical world unless the base for such a realisation is built right from childhood.So many religions have created so much confusion in the minds of an average person that he performs his religious duties mechanically without ever trying to understand the infiniteness of the God.For example,it is next to impossible for a layman to fathom the meaning of
the last point:
20. Just as one and the same all-pervading space exists within and without a jar, so the eternal, everlasting God exists in the totality of all things.
All these things need to be explained in detail for them to have any effect on the masses.For that we need teachers.But the million dollar question is-Do we have enuf teachers who themselves understand these concepts?It is in this area where tonnes of work needs to be done if we want to build a new humanity that is more humane.

Great post DK! and great responses from the others. How do we reconcile these great wisdoms with our everyday experiences? We know the wisdoms intellectually but how do we really know them experientially? The answer is through the practice of meditation and other spiritual pursuits. I can only tell you first hand that that's how it works for me. If you have not tried meditation, I would recommend that you try it for a period of time and see if it helps. The Chopra Center for Well Being has hundreds of teachers worldwide who teach Primordial Sound Meditation, an ancient practice from the Vedic traditions of India. If you go to the Chopra website, you can look up a teacher nearest you.
Best regards,
M:)

Dear DK, is happiness such a highly attainable desire for the human being; that only such a small percentage of humans can achieve the blissful "state and art, of being."

We know, too many facts which point out, that even the most wise, intelligent and/or spiritual persons, can fall very short, in achieving a true happiness. In fact, highly intellectual persons, seem quite prone to depression and suicide.

QUESTION:

"In merely trying to achieve such a state of bliss... are the mass's of humans, by seeking bliss, setting themselve's up for imminent failure? Which in kind, would add to their cart of lacking happiness?"

North

Dear Sanjeev, your thoughts are welcome. Who am I, with no real spiritual knowledge or capability to speak of, to answer your deep queries. I am sure there are more qualified Great Spiritual Masters who can really do justice to your queries. Where I am in full agreement is that this whole subject is about "walking the walk" and not just "talking the talk."

Dear Kate, the Ashtavakra Gita's thoughts and concepts are all about changing the perspective with which one views one's life. As principal actor or observer? The observer perspective is presented to be of immense value. Has it worked for me? I am on a journey where it is helpful to think along the lines of The Ashtavakra. I should add that this is in combination with and under the guidance of a Perfect Spiritual Master practicing Sant Mat. If you do not know much about that, I will be happy to explain.

Dear Ved, yes you are right and there are a number of interactive courses coming alive in every discipline. Perhaps it may be possible to create some basic education along such lines -- along with comparatives -- via interactive software available via the Web as a philanthropic initiative.

Dear Martha, your thoughts are well received. In this journey, there are people at different stages. Some are in need of appreciating ABC and some are in need of one-to-one tutelage and different levels of sophistication. What you say, may be a start and then there is more. Much more...

Dear North, your query is very welcome. Thank you. It would appear that pursuit of happiness as an end in itself is a folly for where it exists sadness must also visit. The pursuit of attached-detachment is what The Ashtavakra Gita is perhaps referring to by answering the query the way it does. Again, with humility, please let me state that I do not know the extent of this complex domain and there are Great Spiritual Masters who do, which is another subject altogether.

With love to all of you and thank you so much for this invaluable feedback and interaction.

Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

Dear DK, thankyou dearly for your response....

as complex as we humans can make simplicity; it is made even more complex, but its own undoing.

North

Hello DK and Everyone,

The one true teacher who is with you at all times in all places is your Self. Always present, aware, waiting, watching, guiding, whispering your soul onward. A more thorough concise patient teacher you will never find. Listen to the one who makes no sound, wait for the moment you arrive to the place you have never left. Listen to your longings and long until there is no hope of fulfillment, excruciatingly sweet, longing to meet the one who in fact you already are. It goes so fast, in an instant, an eternity passes before our eyes and all we can muster is a THANKYOU.peace ruth

Dear DK...Advaita is a wonderful subject. Once you get the essence of it, it does become quite simple. The Key however is, "It's all an Inside affair". No amt of book reading or listening to lectures will take u there. The consciousness in your mind-body apparatus has to buzz. The apparatus has to be ripe enuf to catch the Universal consciousness and vibrate.

It's a big topic abt "The Ego&The self". Most of the spiritual traditions agree that Ego is the biggest stumbling block in Self realization. I'm not talking abt the Defensive Ego, but the healthy "I" with which most identify. I again have to quote Desh here for the equation he got abt the Spiritual quotient in your other thread. Especially the denominator, once that becomes zero the experience is something else. That is what Meditation teaches/takes you to.

I understand DK, the last posts have been written by you personally. I think over a period of time, you will become a fav contributor at IB.

Love..Sachin

Hi Ruth, I didn't see ur post when I posted. So, you too are into this, eh? Don't remember you writing such a post before. We both almost wrote at the same time.

Love..Sachin

Dear North -

That is a wonderful point about intellectuals and their propensity for depression. Some of the greatest thinkers in history were chronically depressed as are some of the most creative or wealthy people. While on the other hand, children seem to express happiness most of the time as do those that are mentally handicapped. This suggests to me that the tree of happiness may grow from the root of simplicity. I mean simplicity from the sense of 'playful wonder' about what comes next. It's always been instructive for me to watch children play. They can take such delight in a bug walking across the driveway or looking for shapes in the clouds or jumping in a mud puddle. Somehow we get to a certain age and forget the joy in just getting muddy and wet. Maybe that's where happiness lies?

I remember reading somewhere that Happiness and "happen-ness" are really the same word. That if one gets out of the way and accepts the ups and downs of life with equanimity that one is happy. I guess that means that happiness and contentment are the same thing. I think sometimes that all of us tend to equate happiness with a continuously good mood...I suspect that that is not what happiness is. Maybe happiness is the drifting from side to side on the riverbank of emotion and never allowing oneself to spend too much time on either bank...never becoming too attached to either extreme of emotion. Maybe happiness is knowing that all things pass and that we should take joy from them while they pass across our consciousness and wish them good luck as the move beyond.

Peace,
Scott.

HI Scott. wonderfully put!!

DK great blogpost. I have not read Ashtavakra Gita. Thank you for posting the first chapter. God bless.

Sanjeev, Schroder has written a book,"Old Souls", which documents research done by a psychiatrist from Virginia school of medicine. In this book they have some non-Hindu children from Beirut telling about their past lives. I agree with Heather that the children either keep quiet or are made to be quiet by their nonbelieving parents and relatives.

I have had occasions where in parents have brought children to my office(I am a pediatrician) with the worry that the child had gone crazy. One of these children at age 4 knew every single street in Macon, Georgia, which is close to Atlanta. The child had never travelled outside of his state of WV, and did not know to read yet. When I explained to the parents how and why the child had this knowledge, they thought I was crazy!!

Most of the texts that had anything to do with reincarnation, were taken out of the Bible by Constantine. So modern day bible has very little to suggest reincarnation.The biblical religions do believe in soul, and that soul survives death, and goes to heaven or hell. They do not believe that we come back to Earth over and over again.

Muslims do believe in heaven and hell, and Quran does have passages where in, it is described in depth what happens after death. There is a lot of similarity in what Quran says about that as compared to what Hindu texts say.

Sanjeev God bless you.

Geeta, DK, and all; if a person incarnates; and they have a "genetic" depression... would that effect their incarnations?

Some believe deperession to be learned; and others believe it to be genetic.

Yet, we hear that learned depression(negative experienced life) is as imminent in incarnation, as genetic.

So, technically; a person born depressive-induced, will ever remain in their negative institute; hereby rendering them changeless?

How do they make their lives "comfortable" as I have difficulty believing its of karmic origin?

North

Hi North,
Why can't genetic defects be of Karmic origins?
I believe its bcoz of the karma from the past lives.
Not sure how curable genetic depression is medically, but honestly I don't really believe in genes anymore. I think power of mind is strong enough to even change the genetic physical reality.

HI Nimiti, I'm not saying it "cannot" be karmic.. my comment was, I had "difficulty" believing its karmic related.

North

Try this:

www.hitarthindia.com/Osho4All/products.asp?L=H&id=Guest

They are saying you can download one Osho discourse each day for free. They have one of his discourses on Ashtavakra Gita (my guess is it's the first one - one of my favorites. It dissects the sutras given above).

Time was when many of Osho's discourses could be searched and read for free - now most sites are charging for them. Oh well...I guess it was bound to happen.

The problem with Advaita is that it only takes one sutra to hit you. If you aren't blissed out by the end of the first page, chances are you can read the whole thing and miss the point.

Advaita and Zen have in common that they are so simple they defy explanation by the very simplicity of it.

Advaita is beyond meditation. However, most people need meditation to begin to grasp anything about Advaita. This is not because meditation is needed for the understanding, but because most people are so locked into their unconscious understandings that only meditation can begin to provide the separation of awareness from its objects that Ashtavakra is talking about.

I also really enjoyed Osho's talks on the Kaivalya Upanishad published under the name The Flight of the Alone to the Alone. It powerfully makes the case for the essential aloneness of every single person alive, and how a deep experience of aloneness can lead to realization.

I spend a lot of time alone. But I am never lonely. The two things are not at all the same. Not even close. This is the first misunderstanding people have about aloneness.

Most people spend lots of time and energy trying to avoid aloneness, rushing into relationships, dashing off to fulfill responsibilities, or avoiding themslves in distractions like TV, drinking, drugs or sex.

The moment they encounter aloneness, they get panicky, they get lonely, and they grab for something to fill that void.

But if you take the time to allow yourself to fall into that void, completely undistractedly, something else entirely happens to you.

I laud anyone, such as Deepak or DK who is able to successfully encourage people to explore their own consciousness deeply.

Dear Ruth, there is wisdom in what you say -- one should definitely listen to the conscience at all times -- and yet it is true for so many of us that we all get by with a little bit of help from our friends, because another person can see more easily what is not so right or good with us and vice-versa. There is no substitute for being in the company of Saints and The Great Masters who have perfected their Meditation and Contemplation because they are "Egoless" by being beyond Ego.

Dear Sachin, yes you are right that Advaita is "all an inside affair" and yet every balanced thought, leads to balanced action, leads to accumulation of its fruit. To grasp the basics, the Ashtavakara Gita may be a steer in the right direction that leads to the awakening. Your point about ego-less-ness is a profound one. It is fraught with difficulty and to say that one is free of ego is to admit that one has a massive one. Step by step, we are all thinking together in a positive way. However, it is insufficient without the guidance of a living Perfect Master -- as Ashtavakara was to King Janaka.

Dear Scott, what you have written in your note to North has the flavour of the Ashtavakara in so many ways and very well expressed.

Dear Geeta, your comments are very welcome and wisely put forward. Reincarnation is really about the principal of the conservation of energy and one level, the indestructible nature of that energy, sustainability of the energy model and finally the intelligent interconnectivity between all living and sentient beings -- past, present and future. The whole concept of reincarnation has been dumbed down or systematically removed in the Abraham based religions but the little children give plenty of evidence of this law of nature.

Dear North, I have a friend of mine by the name of Prof Denis Noble at the University of Oxford, who has written the book The Music of Life, which argues from a scientific perspective about the incompleteness of the genotype and phenotype arguments. It talks about the human spirit being a greater triumph over the way we are than the reductive genes and environment shaping view as the be all and end all of the "robots" we are NOT!

Dear Nimita, your point to North reinforces "The Music of Life" view which also argues that in the end the genes are not triumphant, the human spirit is.

With love to all of you and thank you so much for this invaluable feedback and interaction. I learn so much.

Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

Dear Yogi

I am sorry that I missed thanking you because our postings crossed in cyberspace like ships passing through the night. You wrote:

"The problem with Advaita is that it only takes one sutra to hit you. If you aren't blissed out by the end of the first page, chances are you can read the whole thing and miss the point."

"[What] Advaita and Zen have in common [is] that they are so simple they defy explanation by the very simplicity of it."

These points from my humble perspective are spot on. You also wrote:

"I laud anyone, such as Deepak or DK who is able to successfully encourage people to explore their own consciousness deeply."

On this point, I would like to say that I am not worthy of any lauding. I am only a lowly student who is also learning from all of you. There are the Great Spiritual Masters who are much better qualified and able to encourage people to explore their consciousness deeply. What they are able to offer infinitely exceeds my understanding.

Dr Deepak Chopra is best qualified to represent himself. I have enormous respect for what Deepak has accomplished.

The Well Being phenomenon and the Spiritual phenomenon have common traits and yet the latter is the super-set because it is all pervasive and all encompassing.

With love and thanks so much for this invaluable feedback and interaction. I learn so much.

Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

DK:

Thanks for the post! It was good! The teachings are very similar to Vasishtha Yoga - dialog between Sage Vasishtha and his pupil Ram (who was 16 then). Amazing piece of work that one too!!

Every one talks about a "Perfect Living Master" who is a perfect living master? Some say the "True One".. I say I dont know what the Truth is.. how can I know who the True One is? Its like I dont know what Yellow is.. and you want me to find you a Yellow Room?? Circuitous logic!!

Surprisingly, those who follow Vedas as Sine Qua non like the folks following Arya Samaj - swear by Dualism! Its amazing but except for those brought up on Vedas.. the rest of the folks who have been in touch with Vedantic literature are complete believers in Advaita!! Can anyone help me understand why?

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Yogi-One... awesome explanation on alone!!

DK...thankyou for a great response.

North

DK, is the Prof. Noble's book, available in Canadian libraries? We have no bookstore here, and it would be my only way to read it.

North

Dear Desh

It is not possible for a lay human being to find a Perfect Master. The reverse is true: it is only possible for The Pefect Master to find the lay human being. This realisation can only come about if one is willing to appreciate the central thesis of Ashtavakra which is "the Universal Consciousness" is the doer and not the individual, who is simply an observer or a witness to it. As far as Dualism and Advaita is concerned, we live in a world which is based on "good and bad", "light and dark", "happy and sad" so it is natural to tend towards dualism. Advaita has to be looked at from beyond the physical plane manifesting duality -- from Adam and Eve onwards -- and to see the unison of the entire creation with the five planes including the lower three planes: the causal, the astral and the physical. This is what The Great Spiritual Masters have said.

His Holiness Master Kirpal wrote in one of his distinguished letter series "Drops of Elixir" during the 1960s:

"Man is an ensouled body or an embodied soul. The soul is a conscious entity, a drop of all consciousness covered by various vestures, ie, a physical body, an astral body, a causal body and a super-causal body. Through the grace of the Master, it disrobes itself of all the bodies and reaches its ultimate source or Home, the Sach Khand or the plane of all consciousness and all bliss, never to come back again. This is the first plane which came into being on creation at His Will. Below this there are four planes to pass, the details of which were given to you at the time of initiation. All of these planes are sustained by the same Power of God, called by different names in different planes. Each plane may be said to have its own Lord, or Ruler, and is distinguishable by its own particularly sweet melody and peculiar pattern of Light."

"These five planes have been named by different Saints, each in his own language; Pind [Physical], Und [Astral], Brahmand [Causal], Par Brahmand and Sach Khand and by other names as referred to by you in your letter, but the distinguishing features in Light and Sound of each plane are the basic criteria which they go by, irrespective of the different names by which they may be called by different Masters."

Dear North, The Music of Life: Biology beyond The Genome by Prof Denis Noble -- a good friend of our family -- at the University of Oxford, is listed at Amazon.com and that page you can print out and share with your library.

The Book is described as follows:

What is Life? Decades of research have resulted in the full mapping of the human genome -- three billion pairs of code whose functions are only now being understood. The gene's eye view of life, advocated by evolutionary biology, sees living bodies as mere vehicles for the replication of the genetic codes.

But for a physiologist, working with the living organism, the view is a very different one. Prof Denis Noble is a world renowned physiologist, and sets out an alternative view to the question -- one that becomes deeply significant in terms of the living, breathing organism. The genome is not life itself. Prof Noble argues that far from genes building organisms, they should be seen as prisoners of the organism.

The view of life presented in this little, modern, post-genome project reflection on the nature of life, is that of the systems biologist: to understand what life is, we must view it at a variety of different levels, all interacting with each other in a complex web. It is that emergent web, full of feedback between levels, from the gene to the wider environment, that is life. It is a kind of music.

Including stories from Prof Noble's own research experience, his work on the heartbeat, musical metaphors, and elements of linguistics and Chinese culture, this very personal and at times deeply lyrical book sets out the systems biology view of life.

Publisher: Oxford University Press (2006)
ISBN: 0199295735

Trust this helps. Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

Grateful thanks, DK!! Will take that to my library, and see what they can do!! It is small, so they are generally choosey on purchasing.. hopefully, they will consider this book, a must-read!

North

D.K.,

I'm glad to see the work and comments you make at IB.

You're bringing out the best remarks from many of our friends.

Hope you stay and play when time allows.

We can take turns seeing who can bow the lowest,
or do the limbo of humility.

I'll warn ya...I'm very flexible and lanky.

How's your high and long jump?

DK:

Two observations:

One, how .. and indeed why should Perfect Master - embodiment of the Consciousness need to "Choose"?? How come these "Perfect Masters" (including Kirpal Singh ji give the "word" to select few?). Isn't that an act of creating more distinctions between humans? A Perfect Master should be one who takes AWAY your ego.. not give you more ego -- which is what the act of giving the "word" actually ends up doing!!

Two, Vasistha Yoga differs foundationally on your contention of "Universal Consciousness" as a doer. Vasishtha tells Ram - "Only the ignorant, Ram, talk of DIvine or Fate". Vasishtha says only two things are relevant in what you encounter - 1.Past deeds or karmas and 2. Present Karmas. Of these two your Present Karmas are MORE important.

God or Universal Consciousness cannot and will not do any thing towards any goal!! He has been called "AKARTA" which means who does not do anything towards a particular result or goal.

DK.. Personally I find Advaita is the only explanation for everything. "What the Bleep Do we Know" also emphasizes this from Quantum Mechanics point of view. In fact what it says is very similar to what is said in Gita and Vasishtha Yoga at a Spiritual plane.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Dear Keith, your comments are very welcome and this is a Socratic Dialogue which enriches everybody step by step.

Dear Desh, we are agreed on Advaita, ie, Non-Duality. All of what that entails then implies that there is really no difference between the Universal Consciousness and its connected yet distributed node, which may be you or I or a third person. Debating the issue of who does the action is in itself acknowledging a Duality, which Advaita addresses.

Trust this helps. Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

DK....just tell me one thing again. Is this the real DK who is writing the last few wonderful posts?? Thx..Sachin

DK,

What you posted here is timeless wisdom that is relevant for all times and all places. I am very grateful for your participation on INTENTBLOG.

Love,
Deepak

Absolutely wonderful to see you post, Deepak! How are you enjoying your talk-show?

North

Dear DK...From your posts, it was clear that ur a humble openminded man, which I Greatly Appreciate. Your entry has been awesome I think, very fact that Dr. Chopra himself thanked you.

Written in Good faith...Sachin

Dear Sachin

Whether it is me directly or through my colleagues, we do try to reply to the posts, in a positive, helfpul and sympathetic way.

You are making a meaningful contribution to IntentBlog and it is important to remain positive.

Trust this helps. Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions on our part.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

D.K.,

May I ask a simple Western request?
This happens to be a pet peeve of mine(personal problem).

Allow me to relate this question to an experience.

Over the 4th of July holidays I went camping. The only other person at the site was a Russian immigrant who had fought in the Navy against us(U.S.)

He came running over to help me set up the tent.
His English wasn't so good. With every move he made, after the fact, he would say,"I'm sorry",
as if those were the first English words he had learned.

Well...it drove me up the wall! I finally had to say(he was trying too hard to be helpful)
"Please, quit saying,"I'm sorry", all the time!
It's okay. Once is enough!"

We had a good time fishing and drinking a couple of beers together. I met the enemy and he was kewl! It turned out that he worked where I am employed.

Anyway...Look at the end of your posts and you'll
get my point. If you agree, thank you! Peace, Keith~

DK Matai: You have brought a great and genuinely unifying presence to the Intentblog--your own light--and what a brilliant, articulate, sincere, and genuinely healing and humble light that is!

This is clearly the case, by virtue of the responses you've received, and engaged in return; and this is the first time I've personally seen such a unified response of total enjoyment for any singular contributor herein since the Intentblog's inception last summer.

It continues to be my great pleasure not only to read the topics you initiate, but even moreso, to marvel at the incredibly positive "across-the-board" effect your presence has on these most beloved "Intentblog" cyber-friends, and the the living energy of love that is each of their souls--(especially those that would argue with me that they, and we, don't have souls!!!!).

Most respectfully--(as transmitted by the feminine principle who is the "humble secretary" of my soul--in spite of the male-driven ego who takes credit for any love actually getting through in this conveyance!)--Dave

.....and....a smile and "thank you" to the staff at The Philanthropia, ATCA, for serving so diligently as a connective medium for DK's "Intent" while he is out roaming non-cyber terrains--Dave's "Anonymous Secretary"

Dear DK,
This time of evening - early morning - I relish. The abundance of night sky and stars in clusters, and a glow seems to envelope me, as I walk at the midnight hour - reminds me that Life is a gift to be celebrated!

Oh, but the temptation - to 'figure it out' - what is this Life experience all about. Hence so many scriptures, and teachers to Illuminate the way, the Truth.

To the one who really sees life and its forms and beauty, its challenges and creativity, and still remains centered in an Understanding that does not change when forms, and emotions, and terrain does - that one has found the 'secret' of how to live.

Shall I tell you what I have discovered that easily transports me to this immediate experience?

Yes, I would love for you to tell me more about Sant Mat.

Whereever this transmission is received, I hope you can feel my gratitude and care for your sharing.

With love,
~ Kate

Dear Keith, there are only two weapons-of-love that a person has in this world according to my Spiritual Master -- to seek forgiveness or to give forgiveness.

Dear David, the light you see and feel is the power of Socratic remembrance and dialogue, which encompasses Ashtavakra's pointers tolerance, sincerity, compassion, contentment, and truthfulness.

Dear Kate, Sant Mat's origin of Perfect Spiritual Masters goes back to Socrates and Pythagoras in Ancient Greece, Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, Lao Tsu in China, Hafez and Rumi in Persia and Kabir in Benares on the river Ganges in India.

Sant Mat is about the practice of Surat Shabda Yoga. In Sanskrit, Surat (Soul) Shabda (Word) and Yoga (Union).

Out of the Kabir lineage of Perfect Spiritual Masters, His Holiness Master Kirpal said Shabda or Word is identical to:

"Naad", "Akash Bani", and "Sruti" in the Vedas
"Nada" and "Udgit" in the Upanishads
"Logos" and "Word" in the New Testament

"Tao" by Lao Tsu
"Music of the Spheres" by Pythagoras
"Sarosha" by Zoroaster
"Kalma" and "Kalam-i-Qadim" in the Qur'an
"Naam", "Akhand Kirtan" and "Sacha ('True') Shabd" by Guru Granth Sahib

Surat Shabda Yoga is a form of spiritual practice that is followed in the Sant Mat and many other related spiritual traditions. The term "word" means the "Sound Current," the "Audible Life Stream" or the "Essence of the Absolute Supreme Being," that is, the dynamic force of creative energy that was sent out, as sound vibration, from the Supreme Being into the abyss of space at the dawn of the universe's manifestation, and that is being sent forth, through the ages, framing all things that constitute and inhabit the universe.

The etymology of "Surat Shabda Yoga" presents its purpose: the "Union of the Soul with the Essence of the Absolute Supreme Consciousness."

Other expressions for Surat Shabda Yoga include Sehaj Yoga, The Path of Light and Sound, The Path of the Saints, The Journey of Soul, and The Yoga of the Sound Current.

If you wish to read the Presidential Address, given by His Holiness Master Kirpal, in His capacity as President of the World Fellowship of Religions, on February 26, 1965, at the Third World Religions Conference in New Delhi, India, you may do so at IntentBlog: Interfaith Dialogue -- Unity of Man & Conflict.

Trust this helps. Please accept my humble apologies for any errors and omissions.

Yours ever

DK

DK Matai
The Philanthropia, ATCA, mi2g.net

Dear DK,
You said to Keith that, "there are only two weapons-of-love that a person has in this world according to my Spiritual Master -- to seek forgiveness or to give forgiveness."

That really struck me. And then when I went back and read it again I started crying. I'm still crying. Perhaps it is for all the time wasted pointing fingers? Or the pain caused by it? In my life whenever I have forgiven I have come to know that ultimately it was myself I had forgiven. To feel in my heart for another that, "you are forgiven" and set them free and then to realize it was myself all along. It was myself I released. And what a gift they gave to me to teach me forgiveness.

When I remember the truth of forgiveness there is no confusion in me. I know that there is no other. This is what makes me cry today. That I have forgotten. Anyway, thanks for the humble reminder. Now I'm smiling and have pulled myself together so that I can teach a meditation class at the YMCA this afternoon. I feel grateful, knowing that this awareness will make me a better teacher today.

Love, Kristin

Dear DK..How in the name of Philanthropia you cud omit that post of mine, where I asked you couple of questions neatly?? Is this the Phil-Love you're talking abt? Let me know in the name of Philanthropia on what grounds was that question taken away??

Sincerely..Sachin

Dear DK, after reading your #24, and peaking my interest more and more of that subject, I'm wondering if you may be interested in this excellant book, by: Harbhajan Singh. Harb used to blog here more regularly, but is apparently busy... but Mieke, his book-interpreter from English to Dutch... visits Intentblog from time to time.

http://www.selfdesigneduniverse.com/

I have the book, and it's an amazing journey into the field of "all probability." : )

Dear Harb.... where are you?

North

Kristin: I've gotta "Ditto" DK regarding the energy transmitted by the sincerity and understanding conveyed in your "forgiveness" post--it is indeed the most pragmatic tool-for-life we can employ in this world--one with no limits as to what it can accomplish in every facet of life-on-earth!

Excellent work, Kristin--a "big hello" to Scott for me (and....you can always give an anonymous hug to Josh and Hannah--did I get the two younger ones name's right?--for me!) Dave

Dear Mr.Matai,

Your blogs are very intersting and a very nice addition to intent....

Hello North, I am here, I just sometimes go into my silence modes. Really no words can do justice to things which can only be personally experienced through a sudden flash and then actually arrived at step by step in almot life-long journey.

For example, just now take the word "consciousness" or "pure consciousness", which Ashtavakra says is your basic reality. This is not really any consciousness we humans know of and all talk about it is untrue. It is consciousness of a dead-sleeper, but then is he/she really conscious of anything? It is also a consciousness of a peace of stone, or of a grain of sand for that matter, but can anybody understand how it will be really like from the stone's perspective?

Then yes, this consciousness responds to things but it is not as we human beings respond to things. We place our human perspective between the thing and the real basic consciousness. I have tried to explain this responding yet beyond humans or beyond all things consciousness in my book in my own way in the following paragraph taken from my book mentioned by you.

(Quote)
Some of the readers would say that this is essentially an anthropic way of seeing the things, for otherwise, how can the act of writing/observing come into play in the very beginning, that is to say, when there were no human beings?

The answer is that, for one, there is no essential difference between writing and observing in such contexts. The point to be noted is that a conscious being, and hence a conscious act, and that means to say consciousness-as-such in the final analysis, is involved in the scheme of things at the deepest level in some essential and meaning-giving way.

And for an other, observing, and hence writing, is not all that human as is supposed to be at our shallow and ignorant levels as I would try to explain below with the help of an analogy.

Imagine a pool of perfectly still water. Identify with it from the side of water so to say: you do not see water now but you are that water in perfect stillness. Now, if something is thrown into you, you cannot fail to take notice, you cannot fail to respond, reflect, display, communicate the disturbance thus caused, to which then in human terms we give the name reality. This is observation at the ultimate level; this is observation at the consciousness-as-such level; this is observation-as-such so to say. For all intents and purposes you have thus observe-created ‘reality.’ Mosc creates reality almost on these very lines in the very beginning.

No wonder then, the mystics call this reality illusion or Maya.(unquote)

Sorry for the long post.

Hi DK, welcome. Ashtvakra Gita has been one of my favourite books in my younger days. But I feel that the real import of this Gita - especially its beyond good and evil part - can only be understood by those who have themselves self-experienced oneness or non-dual nature of reality.

Hello Kate, Desh, Navin and others...I hope to come here more often now..cheers!

Dear Harb,
Welcome back after a stretch of silence! It makes me happy to see you here :)) I look forward to reading more posts from you!
With love,
~ Kate

Dear Harb, you are here!! I am so very glad to see you back, after taking some hiatus!!

I have completely absorbed your post, and the more I read it, the more I understand a connection-perspective. As you may know, I am reluctant at this time, to "hold" any belief in my hand right now, and purely am relying on my human instincts.

I feel, your perspective is as close to my understanding the significance of self as a mandate, worthy of desire.

Religions tend to teach us desire is selfish.

so with that in mind... your theory of the evolution of the stages of the human, are the closests I've been able to resonate with, in some time!

On this note, so very happy you are back, and hope to read some great discussions from you with DK and other like-minds of brilliance... I am happy to be a bench-warmer, and just listen and learn..

Intelligence/wisdom,, has a beauty of a song, or a perfect poem....

North

Dear DK Matai,

Permit me to humbly disagree with you because i believe everyone has the Essential Shabda by itself and the way Harb has described this in his analogy of the perfectly still water is the perfect state of meditation in itself. There is no word or naam needed for it in my humble opinion. You only will have to remember that this was already the way you looked at the world as a child. Only then it was "unconsciously" and now it is "consciously". When this then becomes conscious awareness you remember :)
I guess this is what Jesus meant in the bible with his saying: "become like children".

My insight came in a flash and afterwards i wondered and thought about it and could not explain it to myself rationally. I have read many books, but it was after translating Harb´s book that it all again was very clear to me and i could tell myself: i do not have to read any books anymore cause what happens happens by itself and just by being here i add to the wonderful "illusion" of being alife :).

My life was already but now even more has become a "Kingdom of Heaven on Earth" and i feel very comfortable in this unified field of all possibilities :)

Namaste

Harb! Our Old Harb I presume! :-)

It is so good to see you here sir!

DK: You talk about an interesting thought:

"without the Essential Shabda -- Word/Naam -- illusion cannot go away."

Is it that you FIRST get to listen to the NAAM and then the Illusion go away or the REVERSE?

If by Naam or Word is meant the 3 or 5 word Mantra that your Guru gives you .. then sadly I think you are mistaken. For no two Gurus have it the same! Even in Sant Mat.. there are various Branches.. my wife also follows one linked to Beas. But just the Mantras dont get you anywhere.. you may call it Naam or Word.. its irrelevant.

To finally be able to experience the subject, you have to lose your I-ness.. which one can when one find the useless-ness of the creation. I recently saw "What the Bleep do you know".. One of the scientists put the sub-atomic picture in the 'Big Picture" context in something like this:

Everything is composed of atoms... and at sub atomic level in the nucleus.. almost 90% is vacuum. And the particles that do create these components ... we arent sure whether they are matter or waves! Matter or Energy! And these particles keep getting created and disappearing in to space as if going to another Universe (or the Law of COnservation of Energy is violated, I presume)!

The question that these guys could not honestly answer was how does all these "waves" come to manifest themselves into different types and forms of matter?? One of the conjectures that they had was... we are our thoughts! As if the thoughts overlay on the mass of energy (that these particles represent).. and THAT overlay creates the forms! This is kinda like interaction of two kinds of energy - thought and essential creational energy! That could be ONE explanation. If I take this line of thinking a little further.. then the basic Creational Energy is the Universal Consciousness and the Thoughts are the "I".

When Krishnamurthi talks about "being" vs "becoming" it is THIS very "Thought energy" that he looks to kill its own death.. as when Krishna talks of selfless Karma... its the same intent!

Reading Harb's analogy of the pool water.. I felt he wanted to convey the same thing! If pool is the "creational energy".. then ONLY when you can be on "Its side" - sans the "Thoughts" or "I".... that you can experience that joy or the pain of the Pool!!

In fact, the Surat Shabd is also a form of energy... that is a remnant of the "Big Bang" or the first chaotic occurence in the larger field of Creational Energy that first brought form! In that sense.. when the Sant Mat talks of getting linked to the Surat Shabd.. they are really saying that you get down (or "Up") to that level where you see nothing of the illusion but those sub atomic levels of waves and energy without the effects of your thoughts!

The issue with Sant Mat is, as with other traditions, the practices make you as numb and dumb as a active listener as other forms of religious practices do! I have not taken any initiation as my wife has.. buut I did feel that this is on the path to become essentially another religion (or it already is!).

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

In this perfect scheme of thingsof the perfect One there is none/nothing who/which is not perfect. as ramana maharshi would have said "to a perfect master everybody is perfect."

north, your post gave me the feeling that you have finally come face to face with your true/basic self. no greater master than this true self within exists for anybody. just follow it which mostly dictates through the heart. desires are to be gone through and outgrown not shunned prematurely. and in fact this constitutes one's whole life. when you have reached the end of your desires you have reached the end of your individual life as well.

hi old desh, yes, old harb here. well said, my friend. so long as you will depend upon an essential sabda of an other howsoever perfect a master your illusion will only shift from one to an other perhaps even subtler illusion. but then when one fine day you will be blessed to come face to face with the 'listener' of the sabda itself, all illusion will simply evaporate away. you will be left with only your own all-inclusive self with no trace of any other, any other master, any other sabda, of ANY sabda. you may in fact come to the world of sabdas/words altogether much much later. suffice this much for now.

Hi DK.
It's a very appropriate point of discussion that has been started. The significance of the ashtavakra gita to every one in search of the ultimate truth of existence can only be experinced outside the realm of knowledge, through the assimilation of the essence of the ashtavakra gita as a part of our intellect.
The discourses, are, as a matter of fact,the final stepping stone towards an involuntary transformation of the conditioned self into a being that is still in the realm of the unknown to all of us.

silence.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is in fact all that ther needs to be stated or taught.This is the assertion of sankara in one of his hymns - MOUVNAVYAKHYAYA - the language of silence.

However ,being shackled in our state of ignorance, I hope a small little discussion does not belittle all that has been said.

All percieved notions of all religions and faiths of the world,including atheism , that are discussed, dissected, which are either accepted or discarded are due to one's inherent notions of relativistic impressions of truths or untruths.
As such, while there can be no universal acceptance of a notion that may be proclaimed as the only way, the ashtavakara gita and the upanishads without any qualms, attempt a level of teaching with an ultimate aim of discarding or shedding that which is taught, and, to simply be what we are- a bundle of pure conciousness - a state of being that can not be described with a sense of any belonging whatsoever.(in a manner of "I" have achieved "IT").

There remains no subject or object to identify with nor is there an "I" to state the attainance of realisation.

Nachiketa’s queries to the "lord of death" in the Kathopanishad will at least try to explain that given the fact that in the realm of our experiences in our present state -of being objective and subjective, with a concept of cause and effect, - there lies a thin veil of ignorance at every stage in our journey towards what we believe as truth that needs to be burnt down with an authoritative exposition of our own personal realization of the small little truths, along the way.

Acknowledging, always, of the fallibilities of our own faculty of reasoning we strive to stride a path that is still untrodden by each one of us, discovering at every step, in our own personal ways -that are in no way are experience of the multitude - our own little pastures of paradise, hoping that one day, we may reach.

Hi DK!
I beg to disagree. A level of inner calm, if it is to be experienced, is a matter for only our cognizable consciousness to try and live the pleasure of the moment. There can be no relative issues 'between' our consciousness and the universal.
As you may understand, taking any standpoint with refernce to the universal is surely bound to end up in the realms of the known and that surely is not the case.

Since we accept, atleast in the causal plane, that the Universe is ONE, it should, encompass all that is there in the universe including our consciousness.
Since this concept of universality is all embracing, it cannot become a subject of relative understanding or experiencing of the inner calm nor can there be any dialogue between our consciousness and the universal.

"6. Righteousness and unrighteousness, pleasure and pain are purely of the mind and are no concern of yours. You are neither the doer nor the reaper of the consequences, so you are always free. "

People generally forget he is not just advising to get above good and evil or righteousness and unrighteousness but also pleasure and 'pain'.

Well if you can really get over 'pain' nothing else really is required to be said or done.You may do any bloody thing -rape,murder,loot etc while just remembering dear old Ashtavakra and remaining a sagacious witness all the time.

Pain(physical,emotional,intellectual) is all that we all are trying to run from.All these philosophies,spiritual agony,discussions,humility just for one pursuit to save ourselves from pain and find happiness and also pleasure(if it can be availed without the accompanying pain).

Lets not distort truth:Righteousness is important.We are and will be being held responsible.

Even Bhisma the great could not be spared in Mahabharata who just stood (above like) witness to Draupadi's vastra-haran(forceful tearing down of her clothes to shame her in front of the whole court of Hastinapur)