Great article Kavita... this has become almost epidemic--extramarital affairs. I live in a very small town, where everyone knows everyone's business.

I cannot begin to count, how many times I've been hit on, by married men. Sadly, this only seems to serve to place a wedge between me and my male married friends...if the wife will catch his flirting, then I lose a friend, and all I did, was be in the room, with all the others?!! It angers me, when married men, cannot hold thier sexual desire with vigilant care, and I end up being "the bad girl" just because I'm single and pretty? Not fair!!

On the opposite spectrum--I am a single woman, not bad looking, and to be honest... it's mostly married men that hit on me? Single men, I'm told feel somewhat wallflowered to my outgoing personality?

Ultimately, love is no longer the glue which binds a family together. We humans have taken easily, like ducks to water, on how to achieve "desire" regardless of consequences it may impose on those around us.

I am an old fashioned, incurable romantic too Kavita--I believe in commitment and monogamy.

I don't believe in staying together for the kids sake; as kids know the score at very young ages; and more often than not; this kind of set-up, only serves as a socializing-agent, for their children to explore the same avenues of "desire-love" and not, commitment love.

So, the question now is... are adulterous parents, "teaching" by example, "how to" adulterize... and stay together? Must be terrible confusing for children in this form of facade/masquerade.

North

Hi Kavita,
I think that the challenge lies in not looking outward for someone or something else to make me whole. My partner does not complete me. Nor is he responsible for my happiness. To realize my "completeness" regardless of external factors - is a spiritual journey, a journey inward into the depths of my soul. Until I experience the ultimate truth this journey is both dark and light, painful and ecstatic, and not always easy. Along the way - or before we consciously begin - it is much easier to look outward and blame those closest to us for our experience of lack. (Hence, Mr or Ms "so and so" begins to look like the answer to filling what seems to be empty or we are not able to embrace within our self.)

I think that the more aware and open we can be about our spiritual journey, the more we are free to take responsibility. This includes not only responsibility for our own life and happiness, but for the impact we have upon others and the whole. This responsibility includes being able to maintain clear boundaries. Certainly, it is natural to feel attracted to that which we do not believe we possess. This can include another human being with their unique mixture of qualities. And yet, if we can be honest about our attraction and still maintain clear boundaries we can move beyond the false idea that what we truly seek is anywhere but inside our own self.

Love, Kristin

Hmm, today would have been my 29th wedding anniversary. My ex and I are still legally married--the woman he left ME for, died last week in an accidental drowning...they were together almost 12 years.. split up 2 ago, and remained friends.. much like he and I did.

No, love is often, not enough... when she came into the picture, I loved him enough, to set him free... he did not return, so to speak...

So, did he love me truly, the 15 years we were together; or was our marriage just a sham all along; was I swindeled into believing he loved me?

Was I blinded by my love for him; that he could keep me in suspended anti-motion?

I shudder to think; that love is just a combined self-efficacy of desire, and need to be co-dependant; which in turn, socially-morally validates the birthing of children.

I have been alone since 91, when I left him, because of her mainly...with an infant son in tow.

Trust me, I went through every inevitable emotion. Betrayal of trust--was the biggest issue I had to walk through--the crumbled love, which I spent 15 years nurturing; all but became a distant memory.

It was all for not, when he saw her.

So, was his love for me real? Or, was it efforted, to stay the marriage?

Great topic Kavita!! and, Happy 29th Wedding Anniversary, to me; do I celebrate it today or not, being as we are still legally married?

well, I toast a drink to him every year on our anniversary... so, may as well keep the tradition again this year...

Cheers to you, my husband... may your heart/mind/spirit find peace... as mine has.

North

Hi Kavita,

Quite often we misinterpret what “Love” is. People “fall in love at first sight”! Love is “blind”! A string of pre-marital relationships—still you aren’t able to find the right person for you. End up marrying the “wrong” person and the seven-year itch sets in before you know it. The idea of a pre-marital relationship should be to explore compatibility. Sex in itself is the stupidest thing in the world.

In today’s world, why is monogamy such a monotony after a while, you ask. Why in today’s world? Has there been any time in history when monogamy wasn’t a monotony? Didn’t King Dasrath have four wives? Why wasn’t one enough for him? And he even sent his son, Ram, to a 14-year exile on a tantrum by Kakeyi, his fourth and most beautiful wife. Why didn’t he just discard Kakeyi? He couldn’t, because he wanted Variety.

The problem with love and marriage is simply Boredom. How would we feel if we were to eat the same food every day? Our palate yearns for a change. Our sexual “palate” craves for the same change—the male hands ache to explore a different geography, different topography, a completely different landscape. Is there anything wrong with it?

I respect your sentiments in being “a hopeless romantic who believes in monogamy and commitment.” It’s definitely better to be stuck in a miserable monogamous relationship than having an extra-marital fling and feeling guilty about it. Doing it in a clandestine manner with fear of being caught hanging like the sword of Damocles over your head is sure to ruin your relationship with your spouse.

I think if we are able to distinguish between sex (a bodily pressure) and love (caring and commitment), men-women relationships would be much more harmonious.

Sanjeev

Hi Kavita -

This a good and timely topic for the current state that the world is in. I suspect there are a lot of things going on today that affect monogomy and commitment. Not the least of which is the fact that the more the world develops the faster it seems to go. We ahve become a "fast food" generation of people; a world that needs instant gratification: want a bigger car? No need to wait and save, credit is instantly available. We get upset waiting in line for groceries for fifteen minutes when it was only a generation or two ago when food and goods were weeks away.

I think relationships can be much the same way. We spend a few years with a single person and we think we "KNOW" everything about them. There are no mysteries here: I know how she will react, how she feels and smells and tastes. I know what foods she likes...nothing changes. So there are those that go searching for something to fulfill a need for newness.

However, in my experience, the reality is far, far different. Our partners and ourselves are in a constant state of change. The real intimacy comes in continuing to reveal more and more; then life with the same partner is a beautiful combination of newness with a great history of the known. I like that myself. Seeing my partner with new eyes every day and feeling like it is the first day that I fell in love, while at the same time taking comfort in knowing what her favorite meals, drinks and movies are.

The other challenge that we face in our society is the modern western equation that Eros (romantic love) equals real, life altering love that only commitment seems able to bring. If you think about it romantic love which takes place in the first 3 or 4 years of a relationship (while exciting) is filled with all sorts of things that are not love, mostly selfishness. Romantic love tells the lover that they cannot live without the other...it tells them that they are incomplete; if my lover leaves me I will die (or worse yet kill them). Real love has nothing to do with violence. It has to do with wanting the best for the beloved even if that means that they cannot be with you. Real love does not ego based and does not hate the other for leaving. Of course we all feel sad when our partners leave or die, but the core of love doesn't change and we still wish the best for our partner.

There are a great series of books by Robert Johnson called "He", "She" and "We" that investigate the myth of romantic love from the Jungian standpoint. What Johnson (a Jungian psychologist) suggests is that romantic love was really meant as a form of ecstatic worship of the divine and that when we confuse that with love of a flesh and blood partner, we do a violence to our partner and can never truly love the other. We damn ourselves to a continual search "out there" for love. Paradoxically if we can see our partner as flesh and blood then we can have what Erma Bombeck calls "Stirring the oatmeal love" as well as passion and uncondititional love...then we don't have to jump from partner to partner we can find love on earth and in the Heavens.

Peace,
Scott.

I think the human being, biologically, is set up to prefer a change once in a while.

We have culturally super-imposed the idea of lifelong monogamy, but does it fit with the genetic/biological evolution of our species?

I think that society has always sought to control the intense enrgy of sex and love, the same way we seek to influence the weather, control our food sources, control natural resources, and so on.

Military leaders,and religious leaders learned early on the power of separating the sexes, and diverting the sex drive into religious fervor or military prowess.

And don't forget our closest biological relative, the chimpanzee, lives in a culture where a dominant male has EXCLUSIVE access to ALL females in his group, and the other males have to defeat him in battle, or go off and find another group's alpha male to defeat in order to mate.

So the idea of sex being linked to power runs deep in our genes. Even among highly educated men today, the "count" of how many women thay have been with is still a measure of their power.

And sex is physically relieving, even occassionally fulfilling emotionally.

So the drive and the issues of power connected with this run very deep and have been present in every human society since the beginning of humanity.

O don't think we are going to be very happy with ourselves trying to force the same solution on everyone. I believe that there is no "one-size-fits-all" (so to speak :) definition of relationship or even marriage that will work for everyone.

I think it should be like finding the right career. Some folks try different ones, some folks are happy with a relatively low-key marriage while they do other stuff, some lucky folks find early on the one they are most passionate for and some have to kiss a lot of frogs.

I think issues of health and safety should always be considered, and I think that you should always care for the person you are choosing to share intimacy with.

It helps to be honest - agree up front this is just for fun, or declare immediately "I'm not messing around, serious enquiries only."

People who are looking for a date are in a whole different dynamic than someone who is mapping out a career and marriage family plan.

To say "I believe in monogamy" is fine, but just be aware that it doesn't elevate you above people who don't believe in monogamy, nor should you have the right to force it on everyone else any more than you have the right to force your religion onto another person.

What is needed is self-honesty, and people willing to explore within themselves what they are really seeking, and what exactly they want to derive from sharing intimacy with others.

It would be really great if everyone did the kind of soul-searching that Kristin mentions BEFORE they go out seeking a partner. But they won't and that's especially true for young males.

So maybe the answer is "defensive sexuality" a la "defensive driving". You can never really be sure what the other person is thinking, feeling, or what they will do, but you can take measures to ensure your own safety and well-being.

There's also processes you can go through to help you determione what you are really seeking, whether it's friendship, sex, commitment, or some combination of all three.

If it's money, political status, fame-by-proxy, then at least be honest with yourself about it.
Say "hey, I'm looking to become rich and famous through marriage" and then go out and find the millionaires who want trophy wives.

Or if you want some career guy to just pay for everything for you and the kids while he spends 10 hours a day working, 3 hours commuting and 8 sleeping, be honest about it. That way you don't waste your time on two-timing homeboys, only to feel cheated because loverboy didn't turn out to be as socially responsible as you dreamed he one day would be.

It's all about self-honesty, discovering what you really want, and then making intelligent choices about how to create that situation for yourself in your own life.

And that is going to be different, if not unique, for each person.

Thank you very much every one. Yogi-one, very interesting post as always-and the same from Sanjeev, North and the fabulous Mastertons.

I do have to say, one person's right isnt necessarily every one else's. Yogi-one,you are absolutely right about the fact that we need an honest self analysis and decide what we really want. One person may believe in monogamy, another may feel they need more than that to fulfill their need.
I have always believed that at the end of the day we are only answerable to ourselves really.
I personally find it very exhausting even to make new friends, because in my busy life style, I am just about able to nurture my old friends and spend quality time with them. I do believe that loyalty and honesty are two values I very strongly believe in-therefore for me it rules out anything but monogamy. Plus what Scott said is so true, there is no such thing as really knowing everything about your partner and we are constantly chnaging, constantly growing with every experience we have.

But that is my belief-it isnt necessarily better or worse than someone else's. Each to his own, and yet for me it has been such a thought provoking issue, when I see different people looking at different solutions or even looking differently at the same issue.

I have grown up with the same siblings, been with my parents for ever, and grown up with some close friends but every one of them has surprised me by completely blowing some of my presumptions about them out of the water. I'm still discovering so much about people who I have known for years and years.
The strange thing is not one person who has had an extra marital fling that I know has said they did it because they were looking for variety, subjugation or asserting their manhood like our chimpanzee ancestors..pretty much everyone said..there was lack of communication and falling into a rut. Sanjeev has a point about that. I have seen some great relationships where people have put in the effort to renew and rejuvenate what they have and its been a great ride.

Scott is absolutely right about so many external factors that cause relationships to crack.

North I am very moved by your story. I do remember you telling me that financial burdens and ill health caused the cracks in your marriage..does that mean people have to be unfaithful, absolutely not..the strong manage to pull through, the weak use, alcohol, gambling, extra marital flings to find relief. But I guess eventually we have to forgive and move on because it heals us as well.

Sanjeev, boredom definitely creeps in, in all long term relationships..but I wonder if a better solution would be to give each other space to recharge batteries and find something new to get excited about than Someone new..

I also feel very often circumstances too affect relationships. One lady told me how she was very exhausted raising three kids who were 15 months apart and her husband would come home and see chaos and started staying back in office to avoid the noise and the whines, and his secretary and he started an affair till a friend caught it and yelled at him for not supporting his wife. Raising children wothout help is pretty exhausting business, and it does take a toll on your marriage. A woman I interviewed for being a super achiever told me-her husband and she love each other, but these days they go out for a date once in 4 months. They try to spend whatever little time they have in their hectic schedules with their kids, once the nanny leaves.

Away from the daily grind of the same old thing like going to work, working long hours, coming home to cranky kids and an exhausted spouse day after day after day-and having a fling with no strings, becomes very alluring. Its a temporary quick fix.
Who said monogamy or a long term relationship is easy, and these days so many people are doing it long distance..all of that puts quite a dent in romance..I personally think however that this may be one state where if your basic values jell, you may out your eggs in one basket and still thrive!
Time to get back to work, but please keep the thoughts coming.

Hi Kavita, yes true.. it began with each of us having accidents, which sparked job loss's, which lead to financial struggles.. his drinking habit increased.. we moved into a cheaper place across the street from her--she was the final straw, which broke this camels back, however...

But of course, it was so long ago; and of course all has been forgiven.. it does not hurt to talk about it... though it seems to bother other people; which I find odd; because to me, I've handled the whole scenario with class, maturity, acceptance; and peace of heart.

This in no way, implies a lesser love for my husband at the time.. no...I took it very hard at first, then I had to accept it; it was the only thing I could do, to save my own sanity; and that, was to merely accept... and move on. Of which my son and I did...the rest is boring history.

North

North,

My situation is a comedy of errors.

Woman across the street...exactly!

She was the object of desire for my bro.

They let her stay with us during her divorice proceedings,

she took advantage of the situation,

look where that landed me...

needing my ex's help, oh boy!

This hilarity of tests is mono-toneous!

Soooo do I hope it's as temporary as I wish.

School starts tomorrow morning...pray for us, please!!!

This has the possibility of getting ridiculous.

This is in the kid's current best interests,

or so I tell myself. What to do, what to do...

When your in Hell or high waters,

we do what we must do.

That is the meaning of commitment.

I don't make many promises.

I want my word and a handshake, to be enough,

in busy-ness matters.

I'll trust my gut feelings when it comes to Love...

and of course...

a twinkle in the eyes never hurt anything!

.

Tough, tough topic, Kavita.

Money is the bitch a lot of the time.

Boredom, the bastard child, was born blind.

Both of my grandparents stayed together till death did them part.

Examples, as such, are an endangered species.

Who will show us the way in this New Million-ium?

Btw...what's your phone number?

Ha! Keith~

Dear Keith....there are more broken-up couples like you and I out there..than not. I thought I was going to be married "forever" too. I really was totally naive and trusted him completely.

In all truth and honesty; Pete was the last man on earth, I would believe could commit adultery. I trusted him implicitly, the whole 15 years.

My trust was broken. I hurt, I cried, I felt betrayed. Then, I moved on; as I could not forgive infidelity in my marriage.

Keith, do what must be done, to make a good life for your kids. As adults, we had our childhood; and now it is our turn to ensure our children have the best we can give them...better than what we had as a child; if it weren't up to par.

Out of all the couples I know that married... few lasted...most that ended were because of infidelity by one of them.

This in itself, makes Kavita's topic amazingly pertinent in todays world of seeming confused roles of marriage and commitment.

North

Hey Navin, I wonder what mulla nasruddin would say about this.
Its been a long day today and so many people have discussed this blog with me on my email, with so many takes on it. Some were very black and white-no excuses for infidelity-that ends it all. Others said they would see why their partner turned to another-and that communication was key..others said they had had a spate of bad relationships, so that particular married man came as a welcome relief, because he made them feel good. Many others said they were led to believe the man or woman's relationship was already over with their partner and divorce was almost a done deal and then it didnt happen. others said what two consenting adults do is their business, and they all know the consequences-if they are ready to pay the price no one can stop them.

Majority said modernization in India was the root cause of promiscuity. Others said its a natural need for variety, and wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
and so it went on. Keith I think you are doing your best. There isnt anyone in this world who hasnt made a mistake, and I see people paying a heavy price for some mistakes.I think you are paying your dues but are obviously a much more sensitive, compassionate human being for that.
north, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I wonder why has the world changed so much. Do we not have the same value system anymore or as a human race have we become more shallow or superficial.
Or is it that infidelity was always there but we just talk about it more openly.
well shall call it a night-went to bed around 2 a.m and have been up since 6 a.m. almost a daily occurrence since past 10 days.

HI Kavita, I think both..to answer your Q's in your last paragraph...

I think, in the "old days" couples stayed together, because of "religious pressure" to work it out. This became the norm, and socially accepted and expected scenario.

I think too, that the 60's era played a very large part, in the changes of marrital bliss; coming to an almost abrupt halt.

Suddenly, women had rights. Suddenly, a woman wasn't bound to stay with an abusive husband, or one whom practiced infidelity.

Years ago, women were not so empowered. Today, women are.

Women have changed in their belief systems; and also on their self-empowerment. Forty years ago, few women left undesirable relationships, due to heartfelt moral obligations, church expectations, and social status acceptability.

Today, women around the world, are realizing they can exist quite nicely without a man in the house..and that there is nothing wrong with that.

Years ago, if you werent married by a certain age; you were deemed a spinster. Today, spinster is not a very commonly used term, to associate non-marital status of a woman...though I could never understand why a woman was a spinster if unmarried, and a man was considered a stud-bucket?

All I know Kavita is....times have certainly changed; and though I am for equality rights for men and women.... the fight for our freedom..cost big time; as it reflects now, in current distress of relationships...to commit or not commit.

Most women years ago were uneducated, and relied on men for a home stability. Today, women can provide that for themselves just as adequately.

There is no specific role model for a successful marriage any more.

North

Hi Kavita, Scott, Kristin, yogi-one,

I really enjoyed reading your post/comments.

Honesty in relationships & the main purpose to find one's own real self can make it possible to have beautiful relationships. Monogamy/polygamy doesn't matter much. One should just be in the moment & decide what they feel is right for them & won't create serious problems in the future.

And monogamy to me is a desire of merging with the whole through one person. This can be beautiful when lovers can treat each other like god/goddess. In this case, montony can't arise but this is very rare to find such couples. Most of the people will follow the path of polygamy & that is fine for them if they just remain honest in all their relationships & only those should marry who are ready to commit fully. Again, honesty matters.

So, i will say that i believe in honogamy (haha...i mean honesty + monogamy or polygamy) In this way, one can avoid hellish experiences in relationships.

much love, rohit

'The man in question, had a standard line-“My wife doesn’t understand me, but you do. I can’t leave her because of family commitments.” The women chose to fall for it every time'.

Interesting quote above (I've heard women say the same thing too).

Lately, I’ve been hearing the converse from married men:

Married Man: 'I love my wife. My wife does understand me, we have a great sex life, we are compatible-but you know Kamini, do you know any attractive single women who you can introduce me too?'.

Me: 'What for, if you have such a wonderful relationship with your wife-why are you looking to meet single women specifically?'

Married Man: 'Friendship', but of course if she is open to sex then why not?'.

Me: I think I respect my friends to much to throw them into the lions den-plus don't you think they deserve the first prize, rather than the conciliation prize?'.

Married man: 'Sometimes the conciliation prize is better than the first prize???' Forbidden fruit is sweet.

Me: 'Actually forbidden fruit can be sour'

Married men; ‘Marriage isn’t all that it’s cut out to be Kamini’

Me: ‘So get a divorce. You can lie to other but not to yourself’

Arrrghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! And so on and and so on.

I find the attitude of married people per se, who entertain and realise extra-marital affairs really ridiculous. If someone is looking for something outside their relationship, then there is a reason for it. So, have the balls to sort out issues rather than running into the arms of another person. Really there’s no excuse for adultery-and I don’t care what men say, women always know when a man is being unfaithful. Its like women have a sixth sense about these things. Ultimately, it’s done to the couple and how they handle their relationship etc, but basically if you want &8uck around, then SIMPLEY DON'T GET MARRIED, stay single. It makes me so angry when men try and justify their dalliances, by presuming other woman out there are so desperate they would get themselves into a situation where they are a mistress-at his beck and call and is made to feel that she probably won't get anything better.

In India you marry younger, and without much relationship experience. So many men and women have never had the experiences of being with more than one partner. Personally, I don’t think men should marry before thirty-and definitely not the first woman they have an intimate relationship with. In the West you have relationships in most cases before you get married, so you hope that when you make the decision it’s the right one, with the right person-but we all know, there’s never 100% guarantee. One of my married friends from home-use an analogy of taking an exam and compares it to his marriage. Its like an exam, you have to constantly work for the best results/revise and study hard and hope you get the best results!

I think it’s not a question of 'is monogamy monotonous'. Of course in relationships there are days when you need to inject excitement into it. Which is why I personally think having a life outside your relationship is extremely important. You get stimulation from work, friends etc etc. If you are dependent on your partner, there is going to be a time when you feel claustrophobic and bored. That's why, when you decide to commit to one person, you have to be very clear about what you are committing to and for what.

There are always going to be the more charismatic, better looking, funnier, intellectually stimulating people out there, other than your partner-but the question is always-do you take it one step further or not? Most people don't. Most men are one woman men and so in turn are women one man women.

In this day and age-it has become even easier to lie and deceive if you want to have an affair. You can meet someone through the internet, you have mobile phones, smsing etc etc, we live in an age where discretion is aided by modern technology etc. A wife doesn’t know where her husband is calling from sometimes, and vice versa, a husband doesn’t know where his wife is!

I have had married men contact me- offering me an affair, while their wives are asleep in the bedroom upstairs. When I explained to one man that I wasn't interested-he accused me of not being bindaas and uptight. Interesting reaction I thought-lol!

I think you should carry on being romantic Kavita, I will attempt to as well-even though sometimes its difficult to believe that anyone is truly devoted to their partner in the environment I'm living in at the moment. But then I look at my two brothers, one who has been with his wife for 25 years (married for 15)-they met as students at university; my other who has just had his first baby. When I see them with their wives and kids and happy and content-I still believe that there are some men out there who when you ask them how’s marriage, they say wonderful! I’m not saying it’s not always easy, but they would never risk what they have because they love their wives-and truly believe in monogamy.

Throughout my youth I would question and argue against the concept of monogamy, as I couldn’t understand how you could be with the same person all your life-but then, I remember once, my mother said to me-if you really think monogamy is considered a ridiculous concept, then why do think so many people believe in it and practice it?. Ummmmmmmm, yes, ma, I think you're right as always. :-)

Nasruddin Hodja had two wives who he loved both very much. But one day the two wives wondered if he however had a preference for one or another. So they decided to ask him. He, of course, answered that he loves both. But as his wives were not satisfied with the answer, they asked Nasrudin to imagine if he were with them on a little boat on the sea and suddenly a storm breaks! Both women fall over in the sea. Who would he save in the first place? He was very embarrassed and didn't know what to answer. So after having thought longtime he turned himself to his older wife and said: "You can swim, can't you?"

Dear Kavita,
You've asked me in your #11 about Nasruddin's take on monogamy/polygamy/fidelity. I don't know about his take, but I'll give you mine.

Monogamy, when forced, can be ugly. And it can be the most beautiful thing in the world if it comes out of freedom and real love. Marriage as an institution is not really the most natural of phenomena. I hardly know of any other animal species which has a custom of marriage. Marriage in human society means a couple committing to staying faithful to each other as long as they are married. But since most marriages (at least in India) are never based on love, they are doomed right from the start. Since most marriages here are marriages of convenience anyway, married men and women are bound to lust for partners outside their marriage. Extra marital affairs have always existed here, but off late, they have come out of the closet due to the influence of a much more open media (tv, print, internet).

When you are truly in love with someone, there is no way that you'd look for somebody else apart from that person. So, monogamy will then happen on its on accord. And when monogamy happens naturally like this, you can consider yourself blessed.

In a cosmopolitan city like Mumbai, I see married women hitting upon me and other bachelors like me, all the time. And I am amazed at the total lack of guilt or moral trepidation in these women. Frankly, I have no respect for such philandering women (and men). Simply because they are cowards, and I don't like cowards. They are cowards because they don't have the courage to live life on their own terms. They have compromised by marrying (or staying married) to a person they don't love. These are the kind of people who would fantasize about their favourite filmstar even when making love to their spouse.

Having said that, I do believe that men and women are biologically programmed differently for playing different gender roles. Men, are by nature, programmed to be more promiscuous than women.

Cheers!
Navin

Hi all,

Behavioral evolutionists would state that promiscuousness is a natural evolutionary tool. At some point this was important, but now I suspect that promiscuousness is an anachronism. When we look at the relative "age" of humankind as a species, for the most part we're still barely a blip on the map of earth's history; babies really. Although monogamy seems to be disappearing, I suspect that what we are actually seeing is an adjustment (marriage being redifined)and that we will begin to see a higher rate of monogamy in humans over the next centuries. We will be seeing more couples using their relationships (consciously) as spring boards to higher levels of consciousness and greater connection with the human race. WIth few exceptions (actually only one that I can think of) pair bonding is the norm...even in traditional tribal societies untouched by "civilization" (I use that word with tongue firmly placed in cheek)there is some sort of formal pair bonding. Because our higher brain functions take a lot of training in order to be of use, human children MUST spend a long time in the care of their parents. Pair bonding is an efficient way of doing that.

My feeling is that non-committed behavior is a bit of a throw back to an earlier time. Marriage partnerships (or whatever you want to call them) IMHO have the potential to heal the current imbalance between the masculine and feminine. In the last few centuries marriage has often been about domination of the female by the male. I really think this will and is changing.

Commitment is a self-discipline. And self-discipline is actually freedom. Because it is WE that choose then rather than our animal instinct to reproduce with as many females as possible OR (for females) to search out healthier and healthier males in which to gain genetic superiority for our offspring. This was valuable at a time, but in my opinion this is now something that is ready to pass out of our evolutionary tool bag.

Peace,
Scott.

Kamini, I agree with you... there really is no excuse for adultery; other than lack of self-control. Breach of trust and promise; are serious issues for a couple to walk through.

Scott, your post made so much sense, and yes I agree with you too.. men seem slighlty programmed to be permiscuous by nature-whereas women have affairs out of loneliness; of a non-attentive husband.

Love has nothing to do with sexual affairs.

Sexual affairs have everything to do with sex.

Men, need to feel young and voracious--women need to feel needed.

These two things of men and women haven't changed.

What has changed is women in the work force, having careers as good as their spouses. If their spouse commits adultery, she does not have to stay the marriage; she has the financial/work freedom to leave.

The terrifying thing about adultery, is the risk of aids infection... to put an unaware spouse in the position to become infected because of adultery, is a whole new can of worms to open.

As the world evolves, so too, do standards.

North

Monogamy is not natural. It causes conflict, it is institutionlized sex based on fear and insecurity, behavioral control, religious oppression of the life force.

If two people meet and stay together for the rest of their lives, it should be because it just happens, it should not be ordained it cannot be planned. WE LIVE IN THE MOMENT not in the future.

Besides we only learn so much from one person, and sometimes need a new teacher.

This is not to say that a partnership to raise children is unnatural, it is the natural thing to do, sort of a shared effort.

The world is going to Go Bonobos.

Check this out for a peek of what is to come

www.cafepress.com/infiniteminded

or click my name

Note one important thing for this to all work and eliminate the fear insecurity factor is the GLOBAL EMPOWERMENT OF WOMEN.

If certain countries don't start treating women properly, and protecting them from violence there will be a global boycott of the men and their businesses....

One would only do business with companies owned and managed by women.

If it would make your partner happy to have a little fling why not? If you really love them.

The self in them is the self in you. Just a different point of view.

One important thing, I think alluded to by Kamini is that in any relationship, openess and honesty is the only valid practice. One should not deceive their partner. If you don't like the idea of your women sleeping with others than you better not be doing it either.

Everyone should follow their bliss but not at the expense of someone else.

Richard -
People that practice monogamy think it's natural and people that don't think it's unnatural...go figure :).

Peace,
Scott.

Dear Richard,

I completely agree with your last comment.

I have been in a situation like that, that someone told me that my husband was having an affair. We spoke to each other about this and he told me he was not. And i believed him. When i looked into my heart i had to be honest with myself that if he had that i would want to have that too. After all we are only human.

We were completely honest towards each other and made the agreement that we would not deceive each other. We kept that promise. And in a couple of years we will be married for 40 years :)

And i have followed my bliss anyway only on another level and my husband has too.

I always thought monogomy was a commitment, to ward of sexualy-transmitted disease; as much as it is about moral integrity-to marriage commitment?

All we have to do is look at the aids pandemic across the globe; to realize--there is something of great importance in monogomous relationships.

It prevents incurable disease for one. It provides safety from disease between spouses; which also would lessen the rate of child-birth of aids related disease.

IF everyone chose to have multi-sexual partners; how are we to protect the human body, from it's inherent development of social-sexualy transmitted disease?

So, to me; monogomy was enforced many years ago, via religious dictate; to prevent aids diseases from developing; rather than moral obligation.

And yet, isn't it a moral obligation; to NOT expose an un-suspecting spouse to aids risk?

North

Dear North,

What you write is indeed where my children are very conscious of.

When i made that promise to my husband, we here in Holland lived in the so-called sexual revolution period. During that period in the late seventies everything was turned upside down.
No-one had heard from aids yet.

It was in that same period the Maharishi and Baghwan had a great influence on Western society.

Dear Mieke, I cannot begin to comprehend the issues, new "lovers" have to face in todays "desire-ravaged" society!

To my understanding, we are not primates, but an intelligent species; well aware of the risk of sexually transmitted disease, through multi-sexual partners.

Why aren't schools in sex-education class's, teaching young-adult students, that every mans seed, released inside, that a woman has intercourse with; remains in their body, for life!! This is the precursor to clamidia..a supposed sexual, disease from too many sex partners...which can lead to sterility, and vaginal cancer.

I mentioned this to my son, in discussing sexually transmitted diseases; and he did not know. IF teens new... I wonder how they would look at sex, then? Would they be more cautious?

The sexual revolution of the 60's-70's; may have opene up many gates to freedom of expression; however, it also opened gateways to incurable disease.

mind you, there is noted; that aids came from an inoculation, given to African's in the 50's for four years!! Shortly thereafter, aids developed. to me, seems like the USA(who provided it) was trying to clinically wipe out an entire race, through sythetic genocide...but, that's a whole different topic.

I was a teen in the 60's-70's---era of sexual revolution, women-empowerment, and freedom movements... amazing times, back then!!

North

Mieke, I was like totally into Buddha, the Maharishi Yogi, the Tao(Lau Tsu)... I read and absorbed so much in the 70's. I studied Bruce Lee's regime of KungFu Meditations(still have the old book)....

In many ways...all these greats; created what I am...

as the teachings...run deep.

North

HIV does not easily pass, if at all through healthy tissue. The reason AIDS is rampant is nutritional deficiency resulting in weak collagen bonds, sores etc. Certain places are not designed for penetration which results in tissue tears. Sharing needles is simply a bad idea, not to mention the use of drugs.

Some people with the HIV virus have never gotten Aids by the way.

The body is quite capable of being absent of disease as long as it has adequate an adequate supply of all the raw materials it needs for processing and or enhancement of it's ability to process based on environmental demands. Yes there is a factor related to your mind and thoughts as well.

Remember the whole sexually transmitted disease thing is a big "fear operation". The result is that it makes you all individually impotent, and easily manipulated and confused.

Rather than telling everyone to support their immune systems, and how to do it the government’s institutions and organizations, tell people to fear and abstain.

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE THAT CAN SEE THE PERVERSION IN THIS????

You have an industry that kills more people in a year than the terrorists ever have. And where is your attention?

Where is the world’s awareness at? Quite frankly it is up your butt collectively speaking.

I think it is time to wake up from the Illusion that you have been sold.

Remember anything that uses fear, is an agent of Evil. Which by the way has no source; it's more like a side effect of ignorance and failure to see your Self in all.

And remember side effects are a nice word for damage done by drugs.

The game is going to come to an end.

Why does a body produce sores (bacterial infections aside? The bigger question is why is it not in medical books?

The reason for most sores is that the natural pathways for the elimination of toxins, have been impaired by nutritional deficiency, so the body is taking the shortest route. The other reason related to bacteria is mainly your immune system is impaired. It is also related to PH levels, a lack of oxygen etc. Another contributing factor is the lymphatic system which must be manually pumped by physical activity, is lacking the necessary activity.

At some point in the future the medical industry is going to be brought to task and exposed for what it is, the process is underway, there are going to be a lot of pissed of people.

In fact I suspect that, many good health practitioners will no longer even want to be associated with the word Doctor, such that we will need to invent a new label with new knowledge requirements.

There are many good people in the medical industry that have adopted new methods, and there are many that have given into fear propagated by desire for profits.

It comes from the top down, if you question the system or go against the empire you lose your job.

That’s why so much of the previous advice given by the medical industry has resulted in death and great damage. For example telling women not to breast feed to pump up baby formula sales. For 17 years not telling women to supplement with folic acid resulting in thousands upon thousands of deformed babies.

The most important thing to stop AIDS right now, is to have everyone taking 1 gram of vitamin C three times a day. However the price tag to the medical industry to give that advice would be billions of lost revenue. It would also, I supsect effect the global innocous, passive genocide programs in place.

Picture a disease free planet because that is the reality that is coming.

Richard,

You make many valid points.

I hope you, yourself and your Self are

fit as a whistle, as we say.

I suspect you are.

Do you have a lot of friends with these values?

Christian Scientists have had much trouble

attempting to raise their kids with ideas such as these.

.

Do you believe the human body may be completely

controlled by the use of an intelligent mind?

Or is it all prevention?

Should we or trained doctors intervene once damage is a given?

Can we truly reverse life threatening dis-ease

thru prayer and meditation?

Sure, it happens once in awhile, but it also happens

to secularists...maybe someone unknown prayed for them,

I have to acknowledge that.

Seen any miracles lately?

Just wondering, Rich...still here?

love is it!!!

When you got, go with it, spread it, taste it, drink it, transform it...heat it up and ENJOY every moving moment of it.

It's the greatest experience to journey through when its on your path...treasure it, appreciate it and take it in deep and patiently.

cause' once it moves in other directions...away from your awareness....well, that's the whole other story.

...been on both sides and many other sides of this experience, but for now, I am totally "in love"...all over again, with my husband and enjoying every possible moment of it...it's like I just met him! except, our 8 year anniversary is in October...and we've known each other for about 15 years.

:)
Cinda

what's this thing called "love" anyway?
hehehe

Well Keith, what I was talking about wasn't the methods of Christian Scientists. It's all about chemistry, and how molecules interact. The human body manufactures extremely advanced nanotechnology machines for example. There is one nano machine that repairs damage to DNA for example.

It's not all about mind, if you think so, simply stop eating and see how long you last.

The packaged raw material / chemicals / nutrients needed by the machine are produced by self contained manufacturing facilites that many people call plants. Ever hear of a manufacturing plant?

Scientists think that the human body was developed by accident so they are blinded to what it actually is, very advanced technology capable of self replication.

Then we got the other group that thinks some God went poof and created a man and a women. The had sex and their children then had sex with each other, yet these same people claim incest is a sin. Talk about inbreeding.

But anyway....

As far as intelligence, I have proof to support the idea that DNA is dynamic. Been promoting the idea for a while now, of course I won't get credit for it, since I don't have a PhD, it would make all those that do look bad. In fact I wrote a white paper years ago that DNA and RNA and viruses were all software. In fact I figured if I needed to do a species wide upgrade I would need something like a mosquito I am thinking that is what the engineers originally thought.

So then I realized since reality is an information system so is the body. Now Deepak gave me a clue once when he communicated the idea that all the molecules in the body were replaced over a period of time. Then I realized a lot of issues were related to data transfer.

Obviously I did not have millions of dollars for research and either do most of us, and we certainly don't have time for a disease profiting industry to get around to doing it.

So here is a simple experiment any one with an older dog can try, works on cats to. Works good for those around 14 years of age.

Get a bottle of RNA for about $ 33.00 (beats the hell out of a million dollars) and give them 1/8 th teaspoon per day and watch what happens, puppy like qualities after 14 weeks. Then just imagine what it does in humans. I will spare you all the biochemical details but it one small example.

I discovered a bunch of other stuff. Then I came up with a plan, that if I only give this information to humans of a certain level of consciousness and a special type of belief system they would outlast the rest, who would die off or be killed off in large numbers by the nature or themselves. So I devised a way to use the Internet to create pathways that would only be followed by certain minds, leading these light minded people to the information and got some other people to assist in developing and maintaining source content. There is a company that does not advertise, with some very advanced product, so the only way to find it is usually by referral. In other words you have to be connected to the source.

This information is not being withheld from anyone; you just have to find it by your own volition.

So this is a passive way to cleanse humanity of those that host detrimental programming and conditioning.

So my next plan was how and could I transfer the worlds incumbent wealth to the light minded. The answer is yes through controlling the timing and dissemination of transformative intelligence that affects the worlds markets, basically they are unknown truths or knowledge things that are known but not propagated. The nice thing is that because of the nature of the Internet no one can see what I am doing, and all it costs is time, which I have a lot of because the economy is slow and I don’t watch sitcoms. Just been experimenting so far with amazing results.

Two key points the vast all pervading intelligence dwarfs ego intelligence. Current systems are based on ignorance which makes them vulnerable to truth.

But hey it’s just a movie…..

You won’t read this in any ayurvedic medicine book.

One cause of inadequate concentrations of RNA and nucleotides for repair and production of energy is an age-related increase in enzymes that destroy nucleic acids (i.e., nucleases specifically, ribonuclease, which breaks down RNA). As people grow older, ribonuclease enzyme activity has been shown to increase. Consequently, just as the requirement to repair damaged cells increases, the substances required for this repair (nucleic acids) are being degraded by higher concentrations of destructive enzymes.

Exogenous RNA, especially when combined with associated B vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and sugars (like D-ribose) enter the cell and aid in normal regeneration of the damaged cellular elements. This in turn, brings about normal enzyme synthesis and activation, and most importantly increases cellular energy production. Providing RNA and associated compounds aids in the repair of damaged DNA. Ribonucleic acid is important in the initiation of DNA synthesis, acting in a coenzyme-like fashion. The importance of nucleic acids in protein synthesis and in enzyme synthesis, as well as the importance of RNA in bringing about DNA synthesis, and the actually observed anti-aging effects of nucleic acids on whole man, support the the idea of increased intake of nucleic acids for the prevention and treatment of cellular degeneration.

Improved data transfer….

Now you know how old people are often so tired compared to a young wipper snapper..

Dear North,

I do not know how it is in your country, but here we have (especially when the summer season starts) lots of advertisements specially directed to our youth regarding condoms, in papers and on television.

We did have and probably still have (only i do not watch that much television)sex-education on television regularly. And also our schools do provide the necessary information. And then we have an institute (Nederlandse Vereniging voor Sexuele Hervorming - Dutch Association for Sexual Reform), already established in the fifties, that you can compare with for instance the Ifsha organization in Delhi.

And last but not at all least we as parents did talk a lot with our children about this too. I know this for certain that most of my generation did talk with their children because of that sexual revolution and the contraception pill.
And i know at least of my son and his wife that they went to their doctor for an aids test.

C'mon Richard...

Fit or fat? How old are you.

Specs? If it's working on you...

Well? Super-dooper Well?

An account of a woman who Kavita has aptly described is posted at http://twofacesofeve.blogspot.com which sums it all up. I have met some men who say that their desire to expand their horizons has does not mean they dont like what they have. It exasperates me, rattles me and makes me sad. What is it that these men and women seek I wonder because at the end its a sure ticlet to hell and heartbreak.

Thank you very much for all the comments. Ichatteralot, I will read the blog you mentioned. I'm now doing a full fledged story on this. Many people have agreed to do interviews,to share their experiences. I should contact this lady who has written under twofaces of eve-I guess these stories are not just limited to my astrology clients, but run the gamut through all ethnic backgrounds, every town every country. Human emotions are universal. One of my close male friends and I were talking yesterday about this. He said its really all about the ego and self esteem and a lack of communication between partners.
Mieke and North, from what I know of Osho's ashram, while sex with multiple partners was on, they were very strict about practising safe sex. A friend of mine who went to Osho's Pune commune and stayed there, told me he underwent an Aids test and had to use condoms at all times.
North, you made a very valid point about exposing your innocent partner to sexually transmitted diseases. One of my clients found out about her husband's infidelity after she went for a checkup and her doctor said she had a sexually trasmitted infection and her husband had not been near her for a month or two pretending to be busy or tired. She had helped him build this amazing business. They had been married for 29 years. He finally left her for this mother of two who worked at his office, and had started an affair with him, married her after the divorce came through. The devastation and betrayal made this woman spiral into deep depression. She is finally coming out of it now after 5 years.
There were several stories that I heard when I did a feature on southasians living with HIV/AIDS where many husband were indulging in extramrital affairs and had passed HIV on to their wives. When they were diagnosed the social workers pleaded with them to bring their wives so they could be given medication right away, but shame kept these men from revealing the truth. As a result many wives only found out when they had full blown AIDS. It is such a tragedy.
Cinda what is this called Love? For me personally it has meant a lot of things-but that will be for another blog eh?!

Navin, Rohit and Kamini, everything you said is true and resonated with me. Richard that is a lot of information.

I think Scott made a very valid point when he says its all about self discipline. We will find many attractive men and women that excite us physically or intellectually or even emotionally. How far we let that attraction take us, depends totally on us.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I enjoyed reading all of them

Hi Mieke, sometimes I think parent intervention is the clear-cut way to instill safe-sex in budding teens. I know when I were in health class's in school, I paid little attention. I wasn't sexually active, therefor found the information in the class's not pertinent to me.

I feel, most teens are the same way...

Kavita, I hope you will post the article here at Intent as well, when it's completed?

I remember when I were a newlywed, in 1977--we had a couple living 2 houses down, we be-friended. She had the most beautiful hair I'd ever seen, down to her knees!! One day, she came over, totally and visibly upset. Her hubby had an affair...got a STD...never told wifey; and she got a "dear you" letter, from the "health" department, stating her partner had an STD, and she should get checked!! He never even told her, when he learned he had STD!! As well, there were other women he had affairs with!! He basicly killed her that day... she was never the same cheerful woman again after that..had a breakdown...lost her job, him,,,and so the story goes...

When I learned my husband had a woman "across the street" I too...get checked for aids, every year...always negative results; but, it became a lesson, hard-learned about men, and their lack of control, respect and their willingness to "choose" and risk infecting someone they once "loved" enough to marry and have children with!

Shocking!

North

Hi North,

I do agree with you that parent guidance and advice is the most important thing for teens. But then one day, after all this guidance you have to let them go, on holiday on their own, with a few friends, and then it is Hello Ibiza, here we come :)

My children knew this too and sometimes some things do happen anyway, and if you can be honest about it to the one you want to marry
then it is a wise thing to do to get the aids test before going any further. Mistakes can be made, honesty is the factor here.

Dear Kavita,

Baghwan also got wise by experience, it was not always that they had condoms, especially not in the beginning. I do not want to judge about anything cause the only thing to become wise is by experience :)

I agree Mieke, we can only teach our children so much; and from there, it is up to them to implement the strategies necessary.

North

"So, i will say that i believe in honogamy (haha...i mean honesty + monogamy or polygamy) In this way, one can avoid hellish experiences in relationships. "

Great recipe, Rohit.

Just don't get married for the wrong reasons (fear, security, or because somebody decided for you) and establish your expectations up front. Realize that both may change, but if you truly loved you always will, no matter what, even if it is later from afar.

Going back to Kavita's original question.

Is love enough?

I think the world needs to understand what love is.

That there is ....

Love of Self
Love of Character
Love of Experience

Love of self is seeing your Self in others and does not change, becuase Self does not change.

The other two change, and so does that Love. True the last to could really be called desire.

All three seem to be required for a complete relationship.

Hi North and Kavita -

This stuff happens and it is always painful, but sometimes the reasons are fairly simple.

My experience with infidelity was during my first marriage. Things were going fine (I thought), we had two children, mortgage etc. etc. My wife (now ex wife) met a guy at work (also married with two children the same ages as ours) and this relationship turned into a full fledged affair. I found out about it, forgave her and then put a lot of energy into fixing my marriage (although I was not sure how it was broken). Eventually we divorced, I met Kristin and all is well. However, I was really angry about the whole situation for a long time (years).

But now upon looking back on it I understand that she was young and unhappy... not unhappy about me, just unhappy. So she looked at her life: Couldn't change her family, couldn't get rid of the kids. What was left? Me. She could change partners in hopes that she would be happy. And of course that euphoric feeling of a new relationship promises that it will last forever. Of course it doesn't and if one isn't really aware, they make another switch, on and on and on. She was young and unhappy and didn't know what else to do. I'm happy to say that she actually married the guy that she had the affair with and though they went through some rocky times, things have gotten much better for her. She has been a good mom to our kids and her husband is a fair and decent man. Basically, she figured out that SHE needed to change before she could be happy.

My point here is that these affairs often happen due to misperception of what it is that makes us happy or unhappy. I don't think that they are as much about sex as we think...I think they're about that very human dissatisfaction with the material. When happiness is based on what happens externally we're slaves to the constant shifting of life. Or rather we mistake "fun" for "happiness",then we are constantly looking out there for happiness. This is more then futile...it actually distracts us from where true happiness lies. YES a new relationship can be fun, sex is fun, a new car, a new job or a new movie are fun things...but fun is temporary. Happiness comes from finding the unchanging within and referring to it.

If "fun" is your definition of happiness then you will constantly be searching "out there" and never be happy because happiness is "in here". Paradoxically, figuring that out allows you to be happy AND have fun (you're just no reliant on fun for happiness). You get the best of both worlds.

Peace,
Scott.

So true, Scott. Often it's not sexual; though in my experience with friends, it was. As far as my ex is concerned; I am not sure if it were sex, or need of change.

However, I suppose if one were to look deeper than sexual gratification; what they are really looking for, is emotional stability...and sadly, it's only a temporary fix.

Emotional stability requires diligent application, by both spouses.

As you mention Scott; sometimes an affair is as exciting as a new toy, a new friend, a new perspective even...

Richard, I agree with you too--that before marriage, one must look deep within; to extract the true "intention."

North

North I would say that your ex's problem was dissatisfaction...but it wasn't with you. It was dissatisfaction with all the things he was told were supposed to make him happy.

We are bombarded with messages that we'll be happy if we only have the right amount of money, the perfect relationship, the perfect house or job or church. The reality is that those things are great, but they don't "make" you happy. But if you don't know where else to look then you just keep hunting for the material version of the "Snipe"; it's always just out of your grasp. The mind subtely says: "Well, that wasn't it...it must be this..." and this goes on ad infinitum.

In a way you can have compassion for your ex as he is trapped in a cycle that is pretty darn hard to break. It's almost an addiction, and that addiction is fed continuously by everything that he is shown and taught. The other insidious thing about it is that we all have the same addiction, it's just harder to see within myself then it is to see in another.

Peace,
Scott.

Lol Richard, i do agree with you.

So in the end it comes down again on the fact that all good things come in three :)

In my past experiences...it's not about the other person, it's almost always about "yourself"

I could go on and talk on end about the ups and downs of my first "mirage" (I use that word because of how it turned out:). It's easy to laugh now, but then...tears, pain, all the degrading demoralizing situations were front and center.
"Love" was not enough, it couldn't sustain itself when "Truth" was more important to me. Managing a relationship based on untruths helped it to disintergrate the fabric of elements needed to bind the precious moments together. The thread was not strong enough to hold it...eventually, it snapped!!!

Don't know if this makes sense at all...I know for each of us it's different, but someone here did sum it up by touching on the essence of "love of the self" being the important factor in connecting and sharing.

Dr. Wayne Dyer put it simply as...
"we cannot give, what we don't have"

If we put more into developing the inner self, instead of looking for "quick fix" satisfaction from others, perhaps what we have to offer would help to plant deeper roots in the relationships we choose?

Just a thought.

Cinda

Good things do come in three's...

love
truth
freedom

Cinda :)

Hi mieke,

Congratulations on being married 40 years, that's great.

Hey someone could really write a great article or even a book based on the stuff in this thread.

A women friend of mine referred me to a book she found very eye opening about the reality of it all. Perhaps a reality that society has failed to look at, the reality and all it's facets we discuss here.

Women's Infidelity: Living In Limbo: What Women Really Mean When They Say "I'm Not Happy" by Michelle Langley

Michelle also challenges the myth of "natural female monogamy."

Here are some others all on amazon.com

Undressing Infidelity: Why More Wives are Unfaithful by Diane Shader Smith
NOT "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity by Shirley Glass
To Love, Honor, and Betray: The Secret Life of Suburban Wives by Stephanie Gertler
Playing Around: Women and Extramarital Sex by Linda Wolfe
The 50-Mile Rule: Your Guide to Infidelity and Extramarital Etiquette by Judith Brandt

when it comes to the topic of sex, women often lie (or fail to disclose) and men often exaggerate.Why is that?

There is the thought if a women says she slept with 6 people multiply by 4. If I guy says 40 divide by 4.

If a women were to tell me she slept with 40 guys, I would think well you must be pretty good, but apparently going back to the women as property days there is some social stigma with women enjoying themselves.

The other thing is that there is this stigma that guys "cheat" the most. In the real world I have seen the opposite.

I once lived in a apartment years ago and there were two married women with kids. When the kids were at school and the husband at work they were banging guys. I would come from work at lunch because I worked close.

I would see these guys going in or coming out of their apartments.

One lived above me (and sound traveled well through the floor), one thing of note was sex with her husband was quiet, with these other guys it was wild and boy she was enjoying it. She also seemed to like a variety. She also seemed so happy, and her husband was happy to, but he did not know.

I know because once I caught her and a guy downstairs on the the washing machine, it was on spin cycle so they did not hear me coming down the stairs. She later asked me not to tell.

That and talking to women, or later finding out that someone was married, gave me the impression that it was women that like to explore much more than men. It is also easiest for them, they can find a guy any time they want.

HI Scott, I have NO clue really; why my ex chose to let this woman into his life. WE were facing financial/job problems, and his drinking habit(how he gets when he drinks) was wearing me out; perhaps he "knew" it was only a matter of time before I'd leave, and he made the "first move" is all.

I'll probably never know the truth really? And frankly at this point; it no longer matters.

What mattered after that, is he and I; putting aside our strains; and focusing on raising our son with TWO loving parents in his life. I must honestly say, my ex; is one of the best, attentive, long-distance fathers I've seen. For the first 12 years, he came every 2nd Christmas, staying with us(plutonic.) Lee spent summer there.

Now that Lee is gone off to college; I doubt very much I'll hear from him again; though I did send him a condolence card when his Patty died 12 days ago. Lee mentioned in an EM last night; they WERE still together, and were house-hunting. His Dad is absolutely devestated Lee says.

Though we are still legally married; we are friends now. His parents still tell me they love me when they call for Lee..they loved Pat too.

WE all worked it out,,,to be ammicable; for everyone's sake.

I feel for my ex's sorrow... as I know what it is..to lose a "love."

North

Richard..we will have to find a gender-specific count on infidelity rates!! lol

I just read a comment Lance Armstrong's ex wife made. She said the reason why the marriage ended was because she forgot to be herself and felt that her role as a wife was to constantly please her husband and lose her identity. Excerpts from the interview "It was me trying to emulate whatever I thought would be the perfect wife or the perfect mother. … We think we're trying to please somebody for the sake of our marriage, but then if you ask Lance today if he appreciated that, I think he would probably say, 'Well, that wasn't the woman that I fell in love with.'" "Kristin says that in order to have a healthy marriage, husbands and wives have to find a balance between pleasing their partner and staying true to themselves. "There isn't anything wrong with making sacrifices and working together. But I think as long as each person can hold onto themselves, and it's a mutual experience of growth—that's the beautiful part. That's the point."
I thought it was very apt. But it made me wonder, how manymen go for strong, self assertive women with their own individuality?

Kavita, every man wants to marry a woman like you described..I know I was/am.

Truth be told, once a man marries us; they try to "change us" to become more invizibled in "our ways."

Frankly, my ex was a jekyl-hyde...awesome, pre-marriage; then a monster in many ways, after. He told me our marriage would be 60-40, with ME doing 60% of the work.

This was told to me, upon return from our honeymoon in Vancouver, B.C. Men have a certain flare for making a woman "smaller" than he is...

Yup, I shoulda maybe ran then, huh? lol

But alas, a lessoned-experience is not to be out-maneuvered...and through it we all went.

North

Dear Scott,

You have put my feelings/thoughts in words in the post here you said, "If "fun" is your definition of happiness then you will constantly be searching "out there" and never be happy because happiness is "in here". Paradoxically, figuring that out allows you to be happy AND have fun (you're just no reliant on fun for happiness). You get the best of both worlds."

; - )

cheers, Rohit

mhhmnn..let me give you some advise,

you don't compromise with love!

Now, I did had to do some explorations, I wouldn't
tell the world about..;) in the last two months in Poland,

Now that I mention it, here's my garenteed recipe,
for all the applepie kinda guys outthere, no matter what your woman has pulled you, or lack there of ;), you can always go back into the infinite pool of good, old fashioned, decent, un-indoctrinated, unspoiled, family oriented, Ego-less, bundles of student pie, at a faculty near you, forget about older woman who hit on you, sooner or later they come with stories, your innerchild really, really, ..but then again, so maybe does hers.. says no to that negativity,

but at the end of game, is love a Dutch treat?
or do you pay,

whatcha think?,

Love, Passion!

Passion,

We don't pay for love...what we do end up doing though is paying for "neediness". Or more correctly, we pay for the mistaken perception that we "need" the other to make us complete. This belief guarantees failure in a relationship, as no one can ever make you happy or fullfilled. It ends up putting too much stress on your partner and distracts you from focusing on what will bring you happiness: the Self.

Peace,
Scott.

Perfectly stated, Scott!!

North

That's a truth Scott.

Yet since my Self is in all others, I was just thinking....

Scott: Ditto to you regarding all your comments on this blog; ones I might add, lead to a greater understanding of where true love, and what it really is, may be "hiding."

When one of us tunes inward in the ways you've cited, then we actually have something worthwhile to bestow on those who are classified as "the object of our affections"--real love--a greater love that also helps "that object" toward his/her own freedom from co-dependent "neediness!" Dave (someone who knows from the experiences of failure in those "other types" of love!)

North, I really felt sad reading about story. Its heart breaking. I wonder why these people commit in the first place (who go ahead to hurt their significant other). But I'm sure you have evolved a lot more, and learnt a lot through this. Then again, marriage is a man-made concept.

Scott, I agree with you , its the "neediness". I think people have insecurities and complexes.

Kavita, it reminds me of the movie kabhi alvida na kehna(a story involving extra marital affair between two married people) that I watched recently, in that they show Shahrukh not able to earn more than his wife, and considers himself a failure. Rani who falls for him, also has her own complexes of not being able to bear children and feels a failure in her marriage. I really think these characters felt the need to find love outside because of their own complexes. Anyway, thats just a karan johar movie(n my interpretation of it), and real life is more complicated than just that.

Kavita,

i am not able to comprehend that whether you are differentiating between getting intimate and having sex. To me getting intimate with someone is one thing and having sex with someone is something else. People can have sex without getting intimate and vice versa also can happen.
Only between married couples both aspects tend to exist although i agree with you that in a decent fraction people tend to drift apart and indulge.

but the fact remain until you are in love with your spouse and you know that cheating on him/her will hurt......you will never do so. Its only when your love or emotional quotient for your spouse hits a low you drift out.

Anyways nimita....talking about KANK karan johar really surprised me.........The movie, at least what i could comprehend, projects both the characters of SRK and RM in a negative shade. Throughout the movie these characters seem to be confused about their identity and personality. And surprisingly SRK is shown to be chauvnist, who has a ten year old kid, but is still looking for love. Honestly speaking.....if a non indian watches it who does not know the status of the star cast....he will brand both characters of SRK and Rani as negative.

Amit

Wow, Scott, great post,
indeed,

anyhow,
'Why does the dish on somebody else’s menu look more mouth watering than what you ordered on your plate?'

or as I once asked a Turkish princess; out of 6, 3 billion people out there, how do you know, that there isn't one out there that suits you even better?

Well, if it clicks, it clicks, she said, simply, you don't look any further..

mhhmn..yes but..grass, is greener.., and so on,
she wasn't bothered with that, it seemed,

but then, they switch, change every couple of months,

women..and 'independence',

Clueless, and bored, later desperate, that's my sociological verdict, for the western hemosphere,

Pluck 'em young, is what I say, East, they have a solidarity Operating System, built in and running, and the Morality radar,
that would be, hedonism vs. ....?

Love, Passion!

Love, Passion!

Thank you every one. well I have just started interviewing people who have been in extramarital affairs and you'll just have to wait till the story comes out, but what is really refreshing is to see that everyone I have interviewed so far, has been honest enough to accept responsibility for what they have done, instead of blaming others for their heartbreak. They have also talked about why they strayed and the reasons too have been diverse.
Amit you raised an interesting point about separating intimacy from sex. For me sex is an intimate experience and shouldnt happen without love, but that is not the reality of life is it? A psychologist claimed that most men can have a one night stand and be as passionate as they would when they were with the woman they love, but women usually dont have sex until they feel an emotional pull. I read that skeptically because the one night stands men are having are also with women who dont have an issue with it..a lot of people who have had one night stands though tell me they were under the influence of the most renowned social lubricant-alcohol.
Also Amit, two of the women who have interviewed about their extra marital affairs tell me they love their husbands, but they connect better with these men they are having an affair with and have no problems being intimate with both-but those guys wont leave their wives and kids citing family committments..I guess there really are no rules and boundaries except for the ones we set ourselves.

I just see the heartbreak and the pain this brings and wonder if its worth it. I haven't seen one person in an extra marital affair not get hurt eventually-even the ones who say its a convenient arrangement. Human beings are not mannequins..you do eventually end up developing feelings, then jealousy and insecurity sets in especially for women and then its down hill..

Scott good points as usual..Marek-change is the only permanent thing in life I guess, but I wonder why do people take the relationships that fall in our lap more for granted, why do we put in less effort to nurture those, than the ones that seem unattainable and hence exciting. Why do things become complacent, and passive with the ones we love with a passion before marriage..
someone also asked me-does power make men more predatory. I remember my brother telling his wife that power is a great aphrodisiac.
Any thoughts on that any one ?
Nimita, from what I'm hearing and reading about KANK, it seems to be a very shallow look at extra marital relationships. A review that I'm publishing this month is hilarious. The reviewer has taken a lot of time to write it. and that too says the same thing-while one must give Karan Johan credit for attempting a tough subject, the treatment isn't that great.
One critic even said-usually we'd go to a karan johar movie and cry with emotion at the touching interactions even if the movies were too syrupy-this time all the characters keep crying and we keep tearing our hair out and wishing the movie would end!
I actually have ended up seeing two awesome movies-corporate and omkara..
North I know there are some awesome met out there as well. I wish I could mail one to you(!)
time to run-today is one fo those mad days with non stop work

Dear Nimita, thankyou for your kind words. It was difficult back then, but all the knowledge and wisdom accrued over the years, helped me remain in a state of acceptance..that is, after all the emotional hell first! Then, logic sets in, and the ground becomes stable again.

Kavita, now wouldn't that be something? Mail-order love?

I find, now that my son is off to college; the pressures being put upon me to become sexually active, and relationship-hunting has increased by fam/friends. I have nothing stopping me now, they say? I say, I didn't have anything stopping me before, either!!

They see me as love-destitute, and I see me, as non-co-dependant! lol

It really does seem to bother society, when a person, male or female doesn't fit into the social-acceptable mainstream... what is so wrong with being alone?

Sure, I would love nothing more, than to have a wonderful man in my life; I loved being married, and I greatly admire the institution of marriage; but, I simply have not met a man yet, who makes me want to give up my single-freedom?

NO hang-ups, no anger/restentment...plain and simple.. just haven't met the right guy... it's my truth, yet people seem to have a need to put a spin on it, and call me - weird.

Well, if self-empowerment and independance is weird, then I am weird indeed.

North

Kavita,

I feel that the two women in question are grossly confused. It cannot happen if you are honest with yourself and your ethics.

It is not necessary to have sex with someone who you connect to. You will always find like minded people...they can be your friends...co workers...relatives..neighbours.....like mindedness and connection is just an excuse for such people to indulge in flings. Probably its their subconcious mind trying to dupe the concious mind.

Basically it is not necessary to have sex with everyone you connect to if you are married. You don't have to just love your spouse but you need to love and cherish your relationship also.And if you don't......this is what happens........sharper the person....better will be his/her excuse of having an extramarital affair. Even i have seen so many cases where the couples are cheating on each other....but generally when such things are exposed the results are disastrous.

Amit

Amit,
you need to introduce me to these people, so I can interview them :).
I think there is a huge shift going on culturally in the South Asian community about relationships and that is what aroused my curiosity about the topic. There are more extra marital affairs and people are open to admitting them.

I'm also intrigued by your comment that the sharper they are, the better their excuse..I honestly dont know if that is a fact. Some of the people I know who have had extra marital affairs really have no excuses just reasons why they did what they did..but then there are people who are also sexual predators-not necessarily bad people but predators nevertheless..both men and women..then there are the serial mongamists..I know a couple who will have a series of relationships. It also brings me to the age old question-can men and women be friends if they are attracted to each other..and leave it at that..many do, many don't. Relationships are so complex..peeling through the layers is as complicated as I'm finding now with every story I do about feelings and relationships and people..I told some one there is no one glove that fits..
North, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being alone..in fact more and more people are choosing to do that and are very content. They say exactly what you said-it'll be great to have someone -but until then they are perfectly content exploring ways to enrich their lives and enjoying their own company.

Dear North,

I totally agree with Kavita :)

And even when you are married, it is very important to keep exploring things that enrich your life, cause sex isn´t the only thing to do that lol.

There are so much things in life you can find passion in.

My husband found it his job, but at home he is a very good handyman if you know what i mean. A do it yourself kind of person lol

I found it in my computer hobby and could mix that with raising my kids and introducing them into this computer world at the same time. Even now they still have advantage of this. And to me this still is a creative heaven on earth.

If you give yourself, no matter when you are single or together, room to explore your inner desires to a certain extent, each in your own way, then your life will only be more fulfilling. When you are single this has its advantages and its disadvantages and when you are married it has too but here you are having a freedom with a little bit more boundary. As always it is a matter of give and take, the oldest game in the world :)

I feel that capitalism has become a way of life more than we realize. It has seeped into our mentality and eventually our personal life.

A partner can easily be compared to a perfect house or a car. First of all, the market is huge with immense variety. Not too many are limited by caste, race, social status, etc. Second, we don’t believe in compromising and continue to chase an absurd idea of perfect romance. As soon as someone else other than our partner seems like they have a one up and that we could have had it better with them if we met earlier, they take the tangible form of the elusive “soul mate”. Third, we describe people in a similar fashion as we would a car or a house. We describe them in terms of features. I also notice a lot of my contemporaries being very rigid about that.

Finally, our moral guidelines have changed. Religion does not bind us from not sinning anymore. Extra-marital affair is not a sin; it is be a way of searching that one who we are destined to be with.

Rather than finding peace with our lot, we continue to shop for perfection.

Amit,
Negatives and positives are our own creations. Ans what exactly is an "ethic"?

I was just commenting on one aspect of the characters of the movie, I have seen relationships break bcoz of the guilt and inferiority complexes like those shown of SRK and Rani in the movie. I never said the movie did or did not potray them as negatives(again, our interpretations could be different). Anyway, as i said before, its just a movie and story writer's imagination. Real life is much more complicated.
Just for the records though, I found people in India( and usually more conservative types) finding the characters to be negative. Many people here didnt brand them so, and some of them being non-Indians who don't really know Rani's and SRK's status.

I guess I am not having expectations. I enjoy solitude and quiet. I am not afraid of my own company; as I keep a constant design flow going, as well as interests of my own; my blog reflects a more astute picture of me I suppose, in creative ways?

I have such a tremendously less responsibility agenda now; that first, I am going to rest and heal some very old physical wounds. Then, as my body catch's up to my spirit again... perhaps the universe will see fit; to put my other half of me.. on my path?

I do not ponder as a loved-starved-lady waiting, for that to happen though.... I am too creative, in multi-ways to be lonely, and too fascinated with the internet's knowledge to ever get bored, by having my own blog to post my chit, research issues that marvel me; and it is marvelous to showcase my works and interests-as a journal of sorts. lol

North

Kavita,

Here is what Woody Allen once said

Sex without love is an empty experience, but as
empty experiences go it's one of the best.

:-)

Aaron

Kavita:

Sometimes I feel every man has this urge for sexual experience (I cant say of the women though - I am sure many do.. and many dont) outside of marriage. Some go for it based on their risk taking ability.. some dont. When the latter group factors in the family and their kids into the equation, they dont want the hassle and at that point the risk-rewards relationship has already become negative!

I had once written a blog "Why Brilliant Men Cheat?" - http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/3197

It is interesting that from Einstein (10 mistresses) to Charlie Chaplin (a compulsive sex addict)... most geniuses are in that mode! Why? They have a greater penchant for risk-taking!!

As you have stated the most often repeated one reason that the single women - or other woman - fell for married men was "their wives dont care"..the question I have is - Is it that these women were genuinely fooled OR they conveniently "chose" to believe this statement to cover up their OWN GUILT?? I mean come on.. its easy to find whose wife is how once you meet her outside of the circle.. I think its not always men who are guilty of misrepresenting.. but the women also - who may "get led" by inane alibis and use that to cover their guilt.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Great #72 Aaron!

Logic means "everything!"

Good ol' Woody! lol

I can't stop giggling about it...thanks for that.

North

Kavita,

At the end of the day sex is a biological need. If this need is not met for a long time a person craves for it. In such a scenario who cares for connections, like mindedness and stuff. When we say getting intimate it merely does not imply physical intimate. Getting intimate means sharing memories, thoughts, passions......and when sex becomes a part of this...it is a great experience.
And you are right the attitude and perception in south asia is changing. But i still don't advocate and support extra marital affairs espacially without the knowledge of your spouse. The current social set up has evolved over millenia......and remember it all started from cave men...with free for all set up. There is something to it that we all need to understand. The urge for more and diverse sex was there right from the beggning and is still there at the back of everyone's mind but still the civilization came up with marriage. We probably need to understand the essence of it.

Amit

Jasleen,
very interesting comment. Amit I totally agree with you for the simple reason that I see the heart break and pain that most people go through in extra marital affairs.
Deah,You will just have to wait till the story comes out-I think you will be surprised to read the reasons why some people are involved in such relationships. I was actually really touched by the fact that so far every woman who has interviewed, has had the courage to accept responsibility and not make excuses.
Incidentally, I see many more women having extra marital affairs than men in my circle of acquaintances. Of course one reason could be that men dont come out in the open, as willingly as women do.

I think it natural to be attracted to other people, but at the same time to remember that the effort y

I meant Desh, in the previous post. Sorry I'm actually writing while wielding phonecalls. North I think you have a great plan. It will rejuvenate you and your talents.
Aaron, we hail Guru woody allen. His zingers are some of the best. Thanks Mieke for your contribution. I'm going to be gone for the rest of the day..but have a great labor day weekend everyone.

In the end folks, it's just sex. Given the option of having sex with a complete stranger, or someone that is your lover AND your best friend...well I know which one I would choose. Temptation dissappears in the light of what is truly important.

Peace,
Scott.

interesting post and perspectives here..imo, fidelity is more often than not, adherence to a projected ideal and more ensured through the "fear" aspect, rather than any intrinsic morality.To "relate" is a happening in spiritual space, not a set of activities.Relationship, to me, happens in an unconditional space of mutual acceptance.When relationships depend on the presence or absence of specific activity spaces, they are bound to evolve, mutate and transform.I feel relationship with an activity is an unique space different from relationship with an individual. Both go through their own evolutions.
Hence, when relationship with an individual is solely dependant on shared activity,it intrinsically can invite boredom and stress, leading to digressions from projected ideals on how the space ought to be.More often than not, our reality spaces are a far cry from our projected ideals.