Hello Deepak and Everyone,

Let us not leave out the great illusion of the Arab World, the illusion that with "Allah's" blessing they will drive the "occupiers" from "their land." This illusion has had as much strength, length, breadth as any. It is also an illusion that even moderate Arabs hope will come to pass even though they will not go as far as the extremists in trying to make it happen, they give their "deafening silence." to the "hope for victory."

Yes, we are in deep "stuff" that is directly related to the invasion of Iraq, how could we, as a Nation, think we could break a Country and put it back together again, when we cannot even put a "health care plan" on the table for all of our citizens?

I would also like to hear some honest admissions, but, not, just from the United States and Israel. The Arab World needs to divvy up honesty along with the United Nations member Countries.

There is a mess, for sure, but we have a United Nations, and they "all" members have the ability to handle it, really, should have been handling it, responsibly, before it ever reached this extent, before the question of Iraq's invasion. If you are going to demand admissions, please, include ALL parties responsible.

Just because the "MidEAst" situation was not afire before the Iraq invasion, does not mean it would not have been. Iraq was contained, by sanctions, but those sanctions were corrupted by many European Nations as well as American companies, "bad stuff" was getting through. The "oil for food" program that was supposed to be monitored by the United Nations was being corrupted by member Nations of the UN. There is lots of blame to go around in our World, for the escalation of these continuing hostilities. There are Admissions "galore" to be heard, from many, for years to come.

I wouldn't count on hearing them any time soon.
peace ruth

Dear Deepak,

I'm sure that you agree that this war was unwinable from the beginning; "winning" was left undefined (purposefully) by this administration. All that keeps coming to mind for me is a line from "Dune" by Frank Herbert: "I sense plans within plans..."

I'm not a conspiracy guy, but I think what we are seeing is really only the miniscule (yet bloody) tip of the iceberg. The real objective is much larger and hidden within a sea of marketing and illusion.

Peace,
Scott.

Ruth,

I think you're absolutely right on this. When you figure in the death count, it's easy to point fingers at Israel and make them the bad guy...however it's quite apparent to me that this whole conflict is much deeper than we think and that there is plenty of responsiblity to go around. Islamic extremists (frankly extremists on all sides) have been force-feeding this lion since it was a cub; now that lion threatens to devour everyone no matter how guilty or how innoccent.

Peace,
Scott.

Dear Deepak..You've been a Master of showing the difference between the Illusion and the reality. I liked your article, but would have liked a bigger article on the same line. "Wars are the places where Illusions go to die". So much truth in that.

Beating Terrorism was never an easy thing to start off with. When they started they knew, it was going to be dirty&long...becoz of the faceless scattered enemy. Talking about the Israel approach, weren't they tired of talks talks and talks?? There's a limit to everything Dear Deepak. Are we going to do talks for decades?? Talks going on...Same story on ground. I'm not very fond of the war approach, neither are most I would reckon...but sometimes I think as a last resort it can be. I Know very very well what the wars can do.

Your articles a few months back on military industrial complex were enlightening. That is the real story Sir. Unfortunately. MONEY!!! The thought of making millions thru' this can be so Enticing to the greed of human mind. He/She will create all sorts of Illusions and sell it to the public. The dark side of human psyche at it best.

I had always bet on your theories Dear Deepak when you were young, when you used to talk so brilliantly abt the dark side of the human mentality. Even though, I understood each and every word of the peace theories which you were preaching of recent...I didn't think they would ever materialise at least in the near future. I've always told you this...that section of population is very thin, even though I belong there, they are not in the powerful decision making positions.

At the end...We're always faced with the question what do I do now? what do I do in these conditions? To me: There's hasn't been a better answer than the core message of Gita Dear Deepak. It's always worked for me. Do your Dharma/Duty but be not attached to the outcome/results.

You've been a Great Inspiration for me on that. I've always watched you, how unperturbed you are and just be focussed on what you're doing. That's the Way to be focussed on one's Dharma. Results? We'll be here to witness how these events unfold and lead us into what...

My hope and wish always in the positive!

Love..Sachin

You were Awesome Ruth!!!

Dear Deepak,
To claim victory, and never possess it - is indeed an illusion! Even when wars and battles are won, these are temporary. History is replete with examples, and in the present moment now.

The challenge for each one of us is to cultivate our inner development, and wisdom above the intellect, to understand why the world is 'falling apart'.

From early on, as young children - we are bombarded with ideas and images of what an 'enemy' looks like. The larger world scene is just a reflection of what we have learned and practiced in our family, community, country, world-wide.

What is truly needed at this moment and time is something wiser than current thinking and actions, and ways of relating and communicating. This is deep, because it also means overhauling how we do business locally, and globally.

With love,
~Kate

Peace is real and the only option.
I believe the world is finally learning this truth.
Love,
Donatella

Ruth. I know me and your world views are literally worlds apart, but your post, as well as everybodys thus far on this thread, is very good.

Most poignantly when you write, "Yes, we are in deep "stuff" that is directly related to the invasion of Iraq, how could we, as a Nation, think we could break a Country and put it back together again, when we cannot even put a "health care plan" on the table for all of our citizens?"

Amen to that sister.

As noted by Observer, MONEY, people making money on wars, and the way of wars, is only going to guarantee more war. Ike's prescience about the military-industrial complex (and entertainment industry may I add) have come fully to life, and I do not see anything changing anytime soon. That people can monetarily profit by war is just sickening!

We have religious extremists on both sides, both with Apocalyptic belief systems, we have an American glorification of our war-machine that is downright scary, and then we have the ‘common people’ just trying to put gas in their car, in a society preoccupied with “American Idols,” a nation of people concerned solely about our each and every own selfish interests (generally speaking I know), and, I could just go on and on . . .

And we have so many people who just ‘know’ their world-view is the right one, and they are quite willing to kill the other over their belief system, again on all sides; there is no hope in the face of such intransigence.

I seriously believe I could inspire many of ‘my people,’ you know, the homeless druggers and drunks to actually change their ‘evil’ ways, but ‘the man’ would never just give us say, about 8 thousand square miles here in Washington State (well actually going a little into Oregon also . . .), allow all the non-predatory prisoners locked up in this nation (probably about 2.5 of the three million currently incarcerated), and anyone else who cared to be free, to come live on the land, and just leave us alone,

because there would be no profit to be made, worse yet, the federal government would have to give up ‘their’ land too . . .

Our greed, or, as many would say, our inherent sinfulness, would not allow a sovereign nation to be formed in the name of peace, b/c there is just no profit in it.

I fear, but do believe, that this nation, the United States of America, is about to become a very very bad place to be, unless you are a millionaire.

We have really screwed everything up, and may the Lord forgive us.

peace

Ruth,
I haven't read all of your posts on this subject so forgive me if I'm not reading you correctly. I understand that you feel Isreal is justified in their actions and that bombing another country in response to terrorist acts is (at least in this case) a just response. However, even if there is some truth to that (which personally I don't see), I agree with what I hear Deepak saying and what is becoming more obvious to us all: It's not working. It doesn't work to blow up countries, kill and terrify their citizens and then expect things to move ahead on schedule.

I agree with you that all sides have a responsibility in what is happening right now. And yet - if I kill someone's child, the arguement that it was justified because their neighbor killed my child, does not obsolve me of responsibility. All it is - is an excuse. The choice and the responsibility is mine.

That is why I believe we should look into the eyes of the person we are prepared to kill. Perhaps it is justified. But then again, perhaps looking into their eyes we will remember something forgotten and make a new choice.

Love, Kristin

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

The site speaks for itself and proves how wrong the mentality of ruths are.

Pardon me ruth, nothing directed towards you as an individual, I have been speaking my mind pointing towards the collective mentality (right or wrong is another matter and not my point for the conversation).

Hi Deepak,

Dont you think that atleast people like us who see the truth of all these, our efforts should be at the grass roots level.Dont you think we should be talking to children,teachers and interested parents about the dangers of wars,nationalism,religious fundamentalism etc. instead of targeting the politicians and religious leaders?

You know, that jew from Nazareth was not really that simple of a human being to suggest to turn the other cheek, he was proposing the most daring and the most difficult solution during the time when an eye for an eye was the rule of the land. But then, not everyone listened to that jew and the rest is history still in the making.

Hello Everyone,

Hi Kristin,

I think Israel is justified in absolutely defending it's Nation and their people. Truly, I am very uncomfortable with it's choice to bomb Lebanon, especially, as severly as it is doing, but I am not the "protector" of this Nation, if I were you can bet I would do all I could to deal with a "very real and serious" threat to the existence of my Nation and my people BEFORE I would resort to the use of any weapons.

Of course, this way (weapons use against each other) will not solve anything, will not bring about peace. I do not believe in guns, would never own one.

I, personally, do not know how people, Nations, will eventually come to put down their weapons, but I think they will, only, because, they have finally realized that the next weapon they use, may, in fact, end it all. Obviously, we are not there yet.

Please do not confuse my determined stance about what I perceive the cause, instigation factors, ect. for the license to kill. What I have been shouting about is the fact that if you want to help solve this grave issue we need tolook at more than just one Nation's response to the attack against their homeland. Much is being ignored about this situation and All the parties involved that needs "absolute attention" if we want to end further needless suffering and killing in the future...peace ruth

Dear Ruth and Scott,

I agree with you that not only the U.S. and Israel have to admit being responsible for the situation. If I may take your remark out of context, Scott, I also think that this is just "the tip of the iceberg". If we keep looking, we'll see that responsibility is everyone's, and that includes absolutely all of us. All human beings have produced this environment of greed, animosity, manipulation, irresponsible decisions and war. This is the way we have learned to live life, to relate to each other, this software is programmed in all of us, and we are simply facing the result of our actions. Some people are starting to learn from it sooner than others, but we are ALL responsible for what we have created together. We ALL have some admissions to make to ourselves.

Dear Deepak,

I know you know that every demon has to come out of Pandora's box for healing to happen. Thank you for creating awareness, for being an instrument of healing, a catalyst for real change. It must be exhausting at times, but what you are doing is extremely valuable, and I'm deeply grateful. I know in my heart that healing is the true name of the process we are in, and I've learned from your books that the point of greatest chaos is the point of maximum possibility.

Ruth..I agree with Every Every word of yours! 100%. I'm Falling in Love with you! I'm sorry if it sounds odd:)

I agree Aurora.

There can be only one victory.

That is Self Realization and the dissolution of ignorance. The Illusion of separation is necessary for war and conflict.

As you might of guessed One is implementing with the intention, it's already in operation and grows in magnitude, to use the best of Madison Avenue and better... thanks to source intelligence. It only requires that the mind be exposed, the truth becomes self evident.

Every day the Illusion disintegrates more and more.

But One wonders if in the end only a small percentage will survive, those that did not cling to the Illusion and end with it...

I improved it a bit.... second draft

In a world of war there can only be One victory

That is Self Realization and the dissolution of ignorance. The collapse of the Illusion of separation, an Illusion that is necessary for war and conflict, that gives birth to all pain and suffering.

As you might have guessed One is implementing with that intention, it's already in operation and grows in magnitude, from the source intelligence it spreads in an exponential manner. It only requires that a mind be exposed, the truth becomes self evident.

Every day the Illusion disintegrates more and more, while the struggle grows by the few to preserve it.

But One wonders if in the end, only a small percentage will survive, those that did not cling to the Illusion and end with it...

Sometimes I feel so alone in my thoughts of this nature...

Richard, wouldn't that be in the present tense? I mean, the world exists and is surviving just because of those few who have seen the truth? The world as is for the rest of us is dead and just seem an illusion.

Yeah, Only the Self Exists and Self Realization is the Ultimate goal. Richard Thomas(the ego)is Just an Illusion!:)

I am and yet the world still knows me not.

I know there are those with the resources to help me. Yet you do not act. What does it take?

Does it need to be at your door step?

When you're an Illusion! What's the need for the world to know you. Only the Self has to be Realized!

Hi Harley,

You made my day!! Truly, talk to Norm who stated that if he were married to me and we got in an argument he would just go ahead and "shoot himself," LOL peace ruth

Everyone plays a role, and One directs, there is one will, keep you intention divine and follow your impulse, and you will do what is needed. Deny it and you deny your Self and that aspect of your self will not persist.

yes, it is the multitude of good natured that preserve what is still blessed in this world

I wouldn't be caught asleep if I were you, and you might include your friends and family.

I suggest you support the source in it's endeavors.

I can always just press the reset button and start my self all over.

That was your self Harley, and you don't recognize me.

Or do you?

Heyyy Ruth...It's true, that's how you must have made Norm felt, you did the same to me. The Beauty with you was....there wasn't hypocrisy in you. You're very loyal to your motherland, you would go all out to protect your family. You basically Spoke from the heart. Exactly as it was in your heart, and the conviction was amazing. Needless to say...how it wud be used as a last resort and how it is painful to see the Innocent ones perish. But...they want to hide behind the skirts of the women and children and fire rockets from under the skirts into Israel. What do you do?

This is the Biggest problem with Terrorism. You can't pinpoint and blast them off once and for all. They are scattered and hideous. This is the reason, why it is so vital to think a few times before you take the decision of going for the kill. One group thinks it is going to add to the vicious cycle of Terrorism, the other thinks it may just well be the answer...a dirty and painful one. Time will soon tell us.

You Stick to your Guns Ruth! Like the other party sticks to theirs.

Everybody stickinig to their guns and their parties is the whole problem . . .

But I hear ya;

And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in thee: and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee. For thy merchants were the great men of the earth: for all nations have been deceived by thy enchantments.
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev. 18:23-4

Amen

You can go back and forth all day, about who is right and wrong, based on their actions.

What everyone is not getting is that it is your belief systems on both sides, that are going to destroy you. Somebody needs to get the worlds attention and say that.

The more all of you use the Labels Arab, Jew, Hindu and Christian the more you deny your Self.

The Spirit needs a voice to rise above the ego chatter and be hear around the world. But it would appear that all of that profess to do good for the world are themsleves divided by the Ego mind.

That is why your organizations are somewhat ineffective.

Hello again Harley,

Thanks for the feedback on my writing, I did feel every word I wrote, and it was very important for me to express it, especailly, about this particular situation in the MIDEAST.

I feel that certain factions of Islamic Extremists are gaining a momentum of force and power and if we do not uncover the lies that these organization feed their followers and supporters it may get completely out of control.

Truly, I think they can be exposed for the "terror aholics" they are morphing into, if the United Nations, all Allied Naitons spoke with one voice to uncover their empty promises.

In all truth they have nothing to offer their supporters, but an empty, dead, dream of "reclaiming" a State that was lost long ago and will never be theirs again. Borders may be negotiated, but that is all.

We need to be explicitly honest with the followers and would be supporters of these organizations. They need to know what they, in fact, can attain for their future well-being and what, in fact, will never be attained. People, if they know the score, will not continue to fight a battle that brings them NOTHING. This is what the United Nations, All Allied Nations should be discussing and figuring out and HELPING people to come to terms with. People will not fight a battle they can never hope to win, only "crazy" people do that and most of the folks involved in this mess are not crazy, just misinformed and confused. Telling the truth about the reality of the situation, the truth about gains and losses, will do wonders for helping in solving this issue and it does not involve "one weapon."

This problem can be solved with the beauty of our intelligence, not the ugliness and devastation of our weaponry..peace ruth

Gee, this sounds so serious of me. So much unlike all the sexual innuendo that has broken out on Kavita's thread "The Way We Do it!"

Perhaps there is less that awaits us there on that thread...

SEX could save the world.

Should be a "lesson" awaits

So b/c of everwhelming firepower they should just give up eh.

It takes alot of heart to keep on fighting against impossible odds.

All the money the U.S. spends on WMDs and propaganda, if it were instead used to uplift their fellow man, instead of killing them, there would be no war to begin with.

The Native Americans did not give up the good fight until they were almost virtually exterminated, and look at them now, they are either drunks or card dealers; thoroughly corrupted by Gentilian witchcraft.

As the United States exlaims how 'backwards' the Muslims are, Christian fundamentalists believe the earth was created 6 thousand years ago, and that when Jesus Christ comes back he will be a mass-murderer.

O, but that is right, Judaism denies that Christ is the son of God, as they now proffer a Dual Covenant theology to whitewash their 'differences.'
_
"Those are the words of Christian Zionist John Hagee. We've been following his mounting crusade to hasten the Rapture on this site. Today the Wall Street Journal has an excellent article on the pastor's rising fame [hat tip: Kevin]

Last week, as Israel's armed forces pounded Lebanon and worries of a wider conflagration mounted, Mr. Hagee presided over what he called a "miracle of God": a gathering of 3,500 evangelical Christians packed into a Washington hotel to cheer Israel and its current military campaign.
Standing on a stage bedecked with a huge Israeli flag, Mr. Hagee drew rapturous applause and shouts of "amen" as he hailed Israel for doing God's work in a "war of good versus evil." Calls for Israel to show restraint violate "God's foreign-policy statement" toward Jews, he said, citing a verse from the Old Testament that promises to "bless those who bless you" and curse "the one who curses you."

The gathering was sponsored by Christians United for Israel, a national organization the 66-year-old preacher set up this year. The group lobbies politicians in Washington, rallies grassroots support for Israel and aims to educate Christians on what it calls the "biblical imperative" of supporting the Jewish state.

Mr. Hagee is a leading figure in the so-called Christian-Zionist movement. This evangelical political philosophy is rooted in biblical prophecies and a belief that Israel's struggles signal a prelude to Armageddon. Its followers staunchly support the Bush administration's unequivocal backing of Israel in its current battle with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

President Bush sent a message to the gathering praising Mr. Hagee and his supporters for "spreading the hope of God's love and the universal gift of freedom." The Israeli prime minister also sent words of thanks. Israel's ambassador, its former military chief and a host of U.S. political heavyweights, mostly Republican, attended.

At a time when Islamist groups are displacing secular nationalists as the main vehicle for political revolt across the Middle East, Mr. Hagee and like-minded evangelicals are injecting greater religious fervor into American attitudes and policy toward the region. They see, and even sometimes seem to embrace, the notion of a global conflict between Islam and the Judeo-Christian West, just as do many zealous Muslims.

"This is a religious war that Islam cannot — and must not — win," Mr. Hagee wrote in a recent book, "Jerusalem Countdown," which focuses on what he says is a coming nuclear showdown with Iran. "The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching.... Rejoice and be exceeding glad -- the best is yet to be." The book has sold nearly 700,000 copies since it was released in January, according to his Florida-based religious publisher, Strang Communications."
evangelicalright.com/2006/07/the_end_of_the_world_as_we_kno.html/
_

The kingdom is God is of the heart, and the very idea that God would compel his people to commit mass murder for land, is a mockery of Scripture, and of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Amen

When God, The Messiah, whatever comes, technically The One must already be here.....

So maybe when One steps onto the scene....

I think every one is going to get a big surprise.

while a religion, isn't islam a set of laws for the muslim people to live by? therefore, isn't the 'democratization' of the muslim areas of the world a natural affront to their sensibilities as a cohesive society? we are essentially telling them that their way of running things is wrong and forcing a western or judeo-christian government system on a people who's laws have been written for thousands of years and an essential part of the religious belief is that there is no separation of church and state. i mean, come on. and we thought it was going to be easy???

Deepak worte:

Wars are places where illusions go to die. A great many died after the fall of Saigon in the Vietnam fiasco, but after thirty years a new crop sprouted again. Installing democracy by force in Iraq is an illusion; deep sectarian hatred is the reality. A government of national unity is an illusion; the U.S. putting a Shi'ite sectarian president in power is the reality. Iraqi security forces are an illusion; armed thugs dressed in police uniforms to make it easier to kidnap and slaughter innocent people is a reality.

Deepak, your last two paragraphs speak the truth

you summarize it in such a way that even a six year old can understand.

Last night as I watched the CNN correspondent interview the Isreal Military Spokeperson.. they believethey are winning... it is mind boggling.

It felt I was watching a robot speak who was so
programmed that he never spoke outside his boundary.

WHAT HAPPENNED to human beings..

I question about the motives.

DEMOCRACY will never work in the Middleeast
it's a western way of life.

Ashie

There's an old adage among the British: "when the Germans bombed, the British ducked. When the British bombed, the Germans ducked. But when the Americans bombed, everyone ducked."

That's from World War II. It's apparent that even then, we'd gained for ourselves the notoriety for indiscriminate overkill and lack of finesse.

Here's the truth: Sadam Hussein is on trial because he invaded Kuwait. It was a very stupid thing to do.

Here's the truth: we are playing an oil endgame in which the stakes are going to get exponentially higher.

Here's the truth: we are caught in a deadlock (in the most literal sense of that word's use) between the world futures trading and actual consumption patterns. Between building stuff and destroying stuff.

Here's the truth: the deadlock will be broken by something completely unexpected and unbudgeted and unannounced occurs. Something utterly confounding to many.

And I have a hunch that if we stay openminded and humble and willing, some unbelievably good stuff is about to occur.

Sometimes it's about CHRONOS. At others, KAIROS (lifted from Pronoia is the Antidote for Paranoia).

And since I'm lifting stuff from that particular book, I might do it again on the topic "futures":

"Consider the oak beams in the ceiling of College Hall at Oxford. Last century, when the beams needed replacing, carpenters used oak trees that had been planted in 1386 when th edining hall was first built. The fourteenth century builder had planted trees in anticipation of the time, hundreds of years in the future, when the beams would need replacing" --Danny Hills, Wired.

You're Spot on Ruth! I had to smile when you said beauty and intelligence. Ohhhhh Dear Ruth..If the world had what you were saying, it wudn't have been the state in which we are today. Can't you see that? It's so clear. Had it been people like you me and so many others here, we wud have just negotiated, compromised here and there and happily move on with life. Life is So beautiful!!! Why would anyone want to get entangled in it for yrs and decades? I think it was Morris who made some wonderful points in the other thread, and also Amit.

I've talked so often with Dear Deepak...that there is a huge section of human population out there which doesn't think like the Intentbloggers, and one cannot overlook that. When you examine a scenario, you always examine all the strips of the spectrum, not just your strip or your side of the spectrum. What you talked in your last post and which you generally do is abt the ugly strip of the spectrum and mind you it is huge. If you don't take that seriously, they may just wipe you out with their opium heads.

Love!

Onegirl and Ashie,

I tend to think that democracy, if it means what the people want, can work anywhere and even in an Islamic country. Turkey is perhaps the best example that comes to mind readily. Some may argue that this is an exception - my point is that it can happen. I think problems arise when it is not allowed to grow naturally or is imposed or given as a clear cut solution to every problem. Just getting some selected people to sit down, write a constitution, hold elections and have someone get a majority and sit in Government is not democracy. The State taking control of everything in the name of equality and the poor and deciding who should get what and how much is not communism. American style democracy or as it exists successfully elsewhere may not suit other cultures and the way of life. One cannot, as I see it, impose a kind of government from the top down, it must swell into a desire from the bottom.

What I am trying to get across is the idea that democracy has to be a way of life for the people concerned. Perhaps the way of getting there is not by first picking and choosing who should represent the people and talking to them, but by getting down to mingling with the common man and finding out how they would like their sytem to function. If that is done, true representatives will emerge as matter of course. It has to be home grown and cannot imposed. Otherwise it will always fail.

"These days I think I'm like most people, exhausted from criticizing the Bush war policy." - Deepak.

Just reading these words brought another thought to mind. Till Pearl Harbour the USA was a country that stayed out of conflicts which did not directly concern it or its people. Since then, perhaps because of its having discovered its military potential and proved it to the world at large, it has somehow or other been involved in conflicts acroos the globe. Hardly had the war ended and it was in a full scale war in Korea in the early 1950s, then Vietnam, a near-miss nuclear confrontation in Cuba, Afghanistan in the 80s, Iraq in the 90s with Kosova and Bosnia thrown in and the last few years Afghanistan and Iraq.

I wonder what it will take for the American public to be exhausted by conflict? Thinking about it, albiet superficially, I wonder how a people, who are earnestly and genuinely concerned with making a better life for themselves and have succeeded in doing so quite well, have let themselves been talked into wars and conflict situations almost on a regular basis over the last 60 odd years?

ps. In going over this again I thought maybe I have given the impression that this is another veiled form of US Bashing. It certainly isn't intended to be so. A thought which passed through my mind was when will the ordinary person in the US say I am exhausted of fighting and the loss of life. Do nations, like human beings, have a macho image of themselves that they think they need to live up to? Can peace, prosperity and military might co-exist?

Hey all!!

Took a couple days off and took the family to Holiday World...had a blast!! Their new roller coaster has 22 seconds of air time!! When you're as big as I am, and can achieve 22 seconds of weightlessness....Yeeee hawww!!!

Just had to check in here this a.m., and see what the 'bad news bears' are up to!! Wasn't disappointed!!

Chicken Little (Deepak) still is pretty sure the sky is falling! But now he's exhausted proclaiming it, so he just simply wants the other side to give up and admit it! Doesn't matter if he's wrong...he'll feel better and his feathers will stop falling out!!

And....there's the long line of those who can't wait to agree....

And....there's Craig...my overly educated buddy, selectively picking scripture....from Isaiah to Revelation....seeing the blood of prophets... and wanting the illustrious Pastor Hagee sacrificed on the altar of American Bloodlust!! :)

And....there's Ruth!! She's amazing!! I saw her first Harley!! :)

And...there's Dana...an optimistic Liberal!! Howzat for an oxymoron!! He sees great things to come!! I'm with him there!!

And here's me....too dumb to see all the bad in the world....just livin life....thinking that you take care of business as it comes your way, not living that nuanced life with all it's complex ways of viewing the world....am I just stupid???

Hope ya'll have a great day!!

norm

PS...Dara...your last question...yes....

Hi Norm,

Every time I read a post from you I get another timely reminder not to take myself seriously. I generally don't, yet its nice to get a warning now and again. In short, nice to hear from you again.

Norm, I wud never do such a thing. Yes, you picked her up before me. All yours, and if I may suggest, if you're not married try for her. She's honest simple and straight Woman. I Find Her Beautiful!!!

Hi onegirl -

I read your post #35 and I can see what you're trying to say. However, something to keep in mind when you talk about Islam is to remember that Islam is only about 500 years old. Their laws have not been around for thousands of years. And "Judeo/Christian democracy" is not really a good term to use. Democracy (even on a large scale) goes back before the time of Christ and at a time when Hebrews were at best nomads and at worst slaves to Rome. Jesus lived during the Roman Empire and actually had little or nothing to say about government. He did say "render unto Caesar what it is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's" which meant: Pay your taxes and don't worry to much about it...this is all temporary anyway (that is my interpretation anyway).

Having said that, I think you are right about your analysis. In the West we look at a theocracy and say that it is immoral, because it does not allow for other expressions of belief etc. However, Muslims believe (at least many do) that it is immoral to have government that DOES NOT have Q'ranic truth at its heart. So you're right...that's why it will be difficult to "force" democracy (at least in the form that we are used to. The only way for democracy to grow in those countries will be gently and naturally. If we try to force it as we are now doing, the Islamic world will look at the West as a group that is attempting to Force God out of their lives. People will fight and die for that.

Peace really is the only way to allow for change in this case.

Peace,
Scott.

Hi Dara -

Your point about it taking Pearl Harbor to initiate America into action (and keeping her there) was a really good one. America at its construction was a much more Libertarian nation. They believe that the government's primary function is to increase liberty for its citizens. War, inherently decreases liberty. It's interesting to me that Republicans (who proclaim that they are "constructionists") have been those banging the drums of war. If they were to truly support the US Constitution they would be against wars of aggression and for free trade.

And I think Dara, that U.S. Citizens are pretty darn close to calling to quits.

Peace,
Scott.

Thanks, Norm. Family's just something you can count on in a weird sort of way.

******************
This message sponsored by the revelation that biodiesel can be made from anything: from possum to plankton.

Hey Harley! Actually I'm a very happily married man...but I usually go for the smile!!

Ruth is amazing...reminds me of the Ruth of old... quite probably the Ruth for whom our Ruth is named!

And Ruth said:" Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: and the Lord do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me." When she saw that whe was STEDFASTLY MINDED (remind you of anyone?) to go with her, then she left speaking unto her.

hmmmmmm!!!

norm

Well norm, Iffin I was as smart as you give me credit for I do not think I would be such a loser; coming like a glutton as I do, drinking and eating while trying to do preach our Lord's Word.

I thank you for your graciousness though my brother.

About those darn taxes, Jesus, being a Roman citizen, could not have in fact paid taxes, being that he was possessionless and all; and it is not accounted to him that he did in fact ever pay taxes.

The only tax he paid was a Temple tax to silence those who treated Christ as a stranger; so Peter went and got the didrachmas from a fishes mouth, freeing the children with a miracle;

O yeah . . .

After all one cannot serve both God and mammon . . .

peace

Had to sneak in here guys, just returned from Boston to visit family. Ahh the smell of Liberalism in the air, nice place to visit....

Ok Ruth this is for you, just bringing a little balance to the discussion from my old pal Mr. Prager, oh I forgot it's all an illusion-Aham Brahmasmi and the ever popular Neti Neti . Hey Craig, Scott, Donatella, and Norm , I never quite left :)

On July 28, 2006, a Muslim entered the building of the Seattle Jewish Federation and shot every Jew he saw, murdering one woman and wounding five others.

On the same day, Mel Gibson was arrested on DUI charges and while intoxicated let loose with anti-Semitic invective at the Jewish police officer who arrested him.

Question: Which story has most troubled the Left?

The answer is known to any American who can hear or read.

So, the real question is: Why? Why has the shooting and murder of Jews elicited less angst from the Left than the anti-Semitic statements made by Mel Gibson when drunk?

The answers are very troubling. As Time magazine said about global warming (but never about Islamic terror), "Be worried, very worried."

We should be worried about this: The liberal world fears -- and much of it loathes -- fundamentalist Christians considerably more than it does fundamentalist Muslims.

This is as true of most Jewish liberals -- even though conservative Christians are Israel's and the Jews' most loyal supporters and even though Nazi-like anti-Semitism permeates much of the Muslim world -- as it is of most other liberals, certainly including the mainstream media.

That is why Jewish writer Zev Chafets wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "On the same day Gibson got into trouble in Malibu, a fellow named Naveed Afzal Haq brought a pistol to the Jewish Federation office in Seattle and shot six women, killing one. Two days later, this personal jihad -- one of the most gory anti-Jewish crimes in American history -- got second billing on the ADL website, under "Mel Gibson's Apology for Tirade 'Insufficient.' " (For the record, the ADL later announced it had accepted Mel Gibson's apology.)

This is one more example of the greatest flaw of contemporary liberalism -- its inability to recognize and confront the greatest evils. Since the 1960s, when liberalism became indistinguishable from the Left -- e.g., when New York Times positions became indistinguishable from those of The Nation -- liberals tended to attack opponents of evil far more than those who actually committed evil. The Left (around the world) was far more antagonistic to Ronald Reagan than to Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev, and far more disturbed by anti-Communism than by Communism.

So, too, today. For example, with few exceptions (the liberal columnist Thomas Friedman being one of the most notable) one only hears conservatives use the term "Islamo-fascism." Nearly the entire academic world that discusses the issue is far more concerned with the threat of "Islamophobia" than of Islamo-fascism. Liberal and left-wing anger is largely reserved for conservatives and especially conservative Christians, while analogous antipathy about Islamic groups with genocidal designs on Israel or America is largely to be found on the Right.

The liberal doctrine on fundamentalist American Christians is that they are the moral equivalent of fundamentalist Muslims and constitute a similar threat to our republic. As bestselling author Karen Armstrong said to Bill Moyers on PBS, "Fundamentalists are not friends of democracy. And that includes your fundamentalists in the United States."

Regarded by the liberal media as perhaps the greatest living historian and commentator on religion, Karen Armstrong does not even see the Muslim fundamentalist support for murder of innocents as a distinguishing feature. According to Armstrong, "Christian fundamentalists in the United States have committed fewer acts of terror than the others for two main reasons: they live in a more peaceful society . . . [and they] believe that the democratic federal government of the United States will collapse without their needing to take action: God will see to it" [beliefnet.com].

The antipathy toward Christian fundamentalists and conservatives is why Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic statements trouble the Left more than Naveed Haq and the genocidal anti-Semitism permeating the Muslim world. And what is it about those Christians that most disturbs the Left? That they talk in terms of good and evil and believe the former must fight the latter, precisely the area of the Left's greatest weakness.

mhmmn.. don't sue me for simplicity,
but, somebody should sue, for material damages, psychological damages, and so,
simply!, now that would be a precedent!,
but, who would be the plaintiff?

Walt Disney?

anyhow,

one love,
Passion!

Onegirl,

I would recommend renting a great movie:

Lawrence of Arabia

Maybe you have seen it, you will gain a good understanding of the historical context of "Muslim Cohesion"

Amba

Amba!!! Was wondering about you, glad to know you posting my brother! So, here is my rebuttal . . .

Well being that I myself am not a liberal, b/c American liberals are just as corrupt as the conservatives, are there not any Christian liberals, or are they all godless homosexuals (I wouldn't think so . . .).

And being that "This is as true of most Jewish liberals," I guess I am off the hook on all accounts (but I am thinking of turning Mormon and thereby gaining instant Jewish status).

And how can contemporary liberals be unable to recognize 'the greatest evils' being that most of them early in their careers (before they got corrupted by capitalism), indeed leaned heavily towards socialism, which is by far a more just economic system rather then the terribly predatory nature of evil capitalism.

And while indeed it may be true that, "Liberal and left-wing anger is largely reserved for conservatives and especially conservative Christians," that may in fact be b/c conservative 'Christians' seem hell bent on killing or Christianizing anybody that walks (except apparently the Jews anymore, but in truth, this yet remains to truly be seen . . .).

And personally Steve the drunken ravings of Gibson are nothing compared to tragic shootings in Seattle, or of the horrific events currently transpiring in the Middle East.

And as far as, "And what is it about those Christians that most disturbs the Left? That they talk in terms of good and evil and believe the former must fight the latter, precisely the area of the Left's greatest weakness."

Well, from my Christian perspective, being that we are all under the dominion of Satanic governments and our own carnal desires, yes each and every one of us, I would think that for any of us to absolutely label ‘the other’ evil, and oneself as good, is not only quite presumptuous, it is in fact not true; ‘For all have sinned and do need the glory of God’ Romans 3:23.

peace my brother and so glad to finally hear from you

Hello Ambasteve,

Good to see you back. I am sorry, but your article was hard for me to understand, I am not a label person, at all. Hate them. Labels have been thrown around for the last six years and they are nothing, as far as I can tell, but triggers used to manipulate one side and the other.

I believe there is a very real and dangerous undercurrent of anti-semitism in our World. I believe it was never dealt with, at all, after WW II, by anyone. Until it is uncovered and dealt
with by our World Community we will have to deal with the effects of it and one huge effect is Islamic Extremism. Hope we can wake up and deal, soon.

Norm and Harley, LOL, believe me I am no Ruth as in "Ruth".peace all ruth,

Hello All,

Not that anti-semitism is the only cause of Islamic Extremism, but it is there, alive and well..peace ruth

"I believe there is a very real and dangerous undercurrent of anti-semitism in our World."
Posted by ruth

Hi Ruth,
A lot of what you have been saying in this discussion is true and understandable, but I am not sure that your above statement is correct. Of course, I don't know what kind of publications you read and what kind of people you come in touch with. Then, again it's your belief, and as such I respect it.
Peace,
Donatella

I'll have to admit that Israel's military response to Hezbollah's attacks is not doing anything (good) for Israel's image -- or its cause -- around the world. If that's what you meant, I agree with you.
Love,
Donatella

Hello Donatella,

Hezbollah and Hamas want to drive "the occupiers" from their land and that is the justification for their cause. I am assuming that the land they are talking about is the "whole of Israel" not just the land occupied after the loss of wars with Israel. I may be wrong about this but non recognition of the actual State Of Israel is a clue to what they want.

This of course can and never will happen.

They have lots of supporters because these supporters believe there is a chance for this to happen, in the future, so they are willing to except nothing now for what they think will come in the future, but this is an empty promise that can never in reality be fulfilled. Everyone knows this, I hope.

The United Nations could help in this by coming out and stating to possible supporters of these two groups and announcing loud and clear, over and over, you can NEVER have this land back, do not believe them, AND THIS is what you can have and what is REALLY possible for you.

This is not being done. Why? Is Israel not really a recognized State? Is Israel up for grabs if you can take her? Why isn't the United Nations of this World being straight with the Palestinians and others who think they have a chance in "nell" of claiming this land!

Believe me, if this information were was upfront, in your face, for all to hear, and know to be true, how many people would fight for something that can never happen, ever?

I think according to our World Community that Israel is up for grabs if you can take her and I think anti-semitism is the reason for this...peace ruth

Norm..Glad to know you got a nice married life. I didn't know much abt you before, but your points make lot of sense to me, practical and down to earth. Ruth says she is not the Ruth as in "Ruth". If she says so. But, I enjoy reading her posts. Very heartfelt!

Someother time wud love to talk to you Dear Ruth. Will share some basics with you, which you already have it in you, but will be nice sharing it. I was just wondering on this line of "Selling the Illusion of Peace". A possibility based on what's happening around the world perhaps.

Love!

Hello all,

Correction, above

This, of course, can never happen.. not can and never will happen..sorry

I was reading some articles thru' the "Recent News" section link rt here at IB, Ruth. Tthe ones rel to Mideast. They were quite interesting. I remember this speech of Olmert on May25th in US. There's a very strong bond between the US admin and him. How these two countries will unfold their plans will be something to watch out!

Dear Donatella,

Regarding your statement about Ruth's belief about Anti-Semitism, this is from Wiki:

"Anti-Semitism in the 21st century"

According to the 2005 U.S. State Department Report on Global Anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism in Europe has increased significantly in recent years (but see fn.31 below). Beginning in 2000, verbal attacks directed against Jews increased while incidents of vandalism (e.g. graffiti, fire bombings of Jewish schools, desecration of synagogues and cemeteries) surged. Physical assaults including beatings, stabbings and other violence against Jews in Europe increased markedly, in a number of cases resulting in serious injury and even death.

On January 1, 2006, Britain's chief rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks, warned that what he called a "tsunami of anti-Semitism" was spreading globally. In an interview with BBC's Radio Four, Sacks said that anti-Semitism was on the rise in Europe, and that a number of his rabbinical colleagues had been assaulted, synagogues desecrated, and Jewish schools burned to the ground in France. He also said that: "People are attempting to silence and even ban Jewish societies on campuses on the grounds that Jews must support the state of Israel, therefore they should be banned, which is quite extraordinary because ... British Jews see themselves as British citizens. So it's that kind of feeling that you don't know what's going to happen next that's making ... some European Jewish communities uncomfortable."[47]

Much of the new European anti-Semitic violence can actually be seen as a spill over from the long running Israeli-Arab conflict since the majority of the perpetrators are from the large immigrant Arab communities in European cities. According to The Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism, most of the current anti-Semitism comes from militant Islamist and Muslim groups, and most Jews tend to be assaulted in countries where groups of young Muslim immigrants reside.[48]

Similarly, in the Middle East, anti-Zionist propaganda frequently adopts the terminology and symbols of the Holocaust to demonize Israel and its leaders -- for instance, comparing Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews. At the same time, Holocaust denial and Holocaust minimization efforts find increasingly overt acceptance as sanctioned historical discourse in a number of Middle Eastern countries.

On April 3, 2006, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights announced its finding that incidents of anti-Semitism are a "serious problem" on college campuses throughout the United States. The Commission recommended that the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights protect college students from anti-Semitism through vigorous enforcement of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and further recommended that Congress clarify that Title VI applies to discrimination against Jewish students.[49]

dara: good points about democracy. i too think it only works if there is a popular will.

scott: i dunno about the 500 years old thing. my 'thousands of years' thing was a bit of an exaggeration, but to my understanding islam has been around for at least 1400 years. you're right however about the misnomer of judeo/christian democracy. i should have thought about a better way to put that. what i meant was in terms of present day society, it seems as though the governments that are pushing 'democracy in the middle east' are either judeo or christian in orientation.

ambasteve: while i have not seen lawrence of arabia in a long time, my intial reaction to the idea of watching it to be presented with any ideas on anything muslim is 'hogwash'. it was written, performed, produced, and acted by westerners. to me, othello in blackface is not othello. perhaps you can explain to me what you mean...

So Mel took more story hits then the guy who killed the Jews, and that is the problem with Liberals in America in particular and average citizen in general?

WoW. I think they ought to move the whole Hollywood business to Dubai or something.

BTW, not that it matters anymore, but I have always wondered about the reaction if Janet Jackson had showed her nipples right around the day when Bush took the troops over to Iraq for shock and awe. You make a guess of what is more serious here.

I wasn't going to post this here, but Ambasteve's 50 and 62 makes me go half serious with all this (nothing better then a good laugh when things are really screwed up all over). Oh, btw, there are various versions of below circulating around the web, feel free to make adjustments if you don't find it too funny.

The rules of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS when it comes to the Israeli-Arab conflict:

Rule # 1:
In the Middle East, it is always the Arabs that attack first, and it’s always Israel who defends itself. This is called “retaliation.”

Rule # 2:
The Arabs, whether Palestinians or Lebanese, are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called “terrorism.”

Rule # 3:
Israel has the right to kill Arab civilians, this is called “self-defense,” or these days “collateral damage.”

Rule # 4:
When Israel kills too many civilians. The Western world calls for restraint. This is called the “reaction of the international community.”

Rule # 5:
Palestinians and Lebanese do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even a limited number, not even 1 or 2.

Rule # 6:
Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (Palestinians: around 10000 to date, 300 of which are children, Lebanese: 1000s to date, being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. All that is needed is the magic word: “terrorism.”

Rule # 7:
When you say “Hezbollah,” always be sure to add “supported by Syria and Iran.”

Rule # 8:
When you say “Israel,” never say “supported by the USA, the UK and other European countries,” for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.

Rule # 9:
When it comes to Israel, don’t mention the words “occupied territories,” “UN resolutions,” “Geneva conventions.” This could distress the audience of Fox TV.

Rule # 10:
Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. This is called “neutral journalism.”

Rule # 11:
If you don’t agree with these rules or if you favor the Arab side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion (isn’t democracy wonderful?).

Dear Ruth,
I understand your support of the existence and safety of the Israeli. I happen to feel the same, but never at the detriment of the existence of Lebanon and the well being of its civilian population. I understand that Israel is in a geographically difficult position, but this state's aggressive military tactics are easily mistaken for fanaticism and intolerance.

The statement that you wish from the United Nations would be useless and redundant, as most of Israel's danger comes from terrorists and not from its member states. You say that you don't like labels, yet you don't hesitate to call Kofi Annan "anti-Semitic". As someone who has been working most of his life to promote human rights and peace, this sounds unlikely. Also as a black man he is certainly aware of the devastating consequences of prejudice.

My point is, that while I understand your particular attachment to the outcome of this new invasion of Lebanon, I just cannot support the current bloodshed among children and other civilians. And I certainly hope that this time in history will not carry the wrong message for future generations. I am afraid that Arianna Huffington was right when she recently wrote about the current situation in Lebanon that "a new generation of terrorists is being born along the way."

Hi Steve,
It's good to see you are still here! I have always enjoyed your balanced views.
That's an interesting excerpt from Wiki. I would agree that in Europe anti-Semitism comes only exclusively from groups of Muslim immigrants. But so, too, Arabs have been the target of violence and intolerance in some European countries, for example Germany. (Actually Arabs, Indians, Turkish immigrants are among the victims.)
Thanks for sharing this information.
Peace,
Donatella

Hello Donatella,

I do not think I pointed out any individual person and called them an anti-semitic, please do put words in my mouth, I did in a previous comment state that I thought Kofi Annan should be replaced, and still think he should, I think the UN is a very weak institution under his leadership and we are facing times of great challenges, I think we need stronger leadership at the UN, that is, of course, my personal opinion.

Lebanon allowed a terrorist organization to set up a launching pad of weapons on it's southern border for the simple purpose of terrorizing it's neighbor. This terrorist organization attacked Lebanon's neighbor, Israel, an unprovoked attack of war. The government of Lebanon has a responsibility to govern it's Nation in such a way that militias do not set up shop to launch attacks.

Israel was attacked, it did not do the attacking, it was not the aggressor in this situation.peace ruth

"Israel was attacked"

When and where? I certainly missed that attack.

Antisemitism, spreading!!!

Gee I wonder why?

My apologies Dara,

Yes Islam is 1400 years old (what Imeant to say was that it is 500 years younger than Christianity and 7000 years younger than Judaism).

Regardless of the age, as you know Koranic laws have been interpreted many different ways (just like the religious "laws" of Christianity and Judaism).

All of these religions do have something in common though...the extreme views are all extremely male dominated and have been really oppressive to women. I am including Christianity and Judaism as well. All of these belief systems when taken literally end up creating backward countries whose only desire is to be back in the 16th century. I find it interesting that the U.S. in the name of fighting exremist religion an theocracies is embracing it's own religious extremism and theocracy. Mirror of relationship anyone?

Anyway, Thanks for catching my error. I'm sure there will be many many more to come. :)

Love,
Scott.

Hi Ruth,

You say "Israel was attacked, it did not do the attacking, it was not the aggressor in this situation"

Please help me to understand what you are saying. All reports say that Israel began the bombing of Lebanon before Hezbollah fired any rockets.

It is true that Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers but Israel kidnaps and imprisions 1000s of palestinians.

Do you believe that an Israeli life is worth more than a Lebonese or Palestinian?

Trying to understand your point of view,

Mary

If you notice the common theme in all of these threads on the Israel/lebanon conflict, you notice that there is this constant argument over who did what to whom first. Really this conflict goes so far back that the original "sin" is unidentifiable and unimportant. The reality of the "NOW" is that this part of the world is going to wipe itself out if it continues on this course. I've found that ashes don't care who lit the fire...they are only ashes.

Someone has to be the first to stop retaliating, no matter how righteous it seems or how deserving of destruction the other appears. It is the only sane course of action...all else is madness.

Peace,
Scott.

I have been absent from this bolg for a while (too busy to write lately) but have peeked in now and then.

I have been resistant to writing about the amplification of organized violence in the Middle East because I don't see any way of communicating about it that helps shed any light.

Three things are becoming clear to me.

First, the objective of the organizers of group violence, whether state sponsored or organized at a level of organization lower than a state, is never really peace. There objective is always the aggregation of more power. Both sides will claim they are threatened. Both sides will claim the other side started it.

Both sides will claim that peace will break out when they are done killing all the enemies of peace. But this is just the Orwellian marketing hype they require as a fig leaf to cover their naked urge for more power.

The drain the swamp metaphor used by the U.S. in the "war on terror" is the U.S. version of this marketing disguise. The ultimate logic of this tactic is really mass annihilation of those who stand in the way of achieving more power. The swamp is filled with the blood of children and parents. The survivors are left broken, bitter, justifiably angry, festering with open wounds, in the stinking swamp of congealing blood and feces. These people are very dangerous individual if they have any power to retaliate, so they must be reduced to a state of extreme powerlessness, or murdered. Mass murder for power is the logic of draining the swamp.

Organized group violence is not the same as individual violence for self-defense or vengeance. The individual violence of personal protection or vengeance is personal, and small scale. What mother or father wouldn't protect their children if they had a chance? However organizers of group violence are only too happy to focus the emotions of those broken survivors of violence and rouse them from their grief and confusion, to "drain the swamp" for their own side. The illusion of victory and more power drives the group leader.

They find new recruits weeping on the shores of the swamp of festering blood, next to the charred remains of a child, a husband, a wife, a parent, a grandparent, a favorite uncle, a niece or nephew. They offer revenge, victory, glory, but under it all, a most seductive prize, they offer a little power. Because what good is any one who can't protect the ones they love from harm, how weak, how inconsequential must a person be, to not be able to prevent the death of a loved one. Don’t forget the guilt of the survivor, their loved one lying burned and blown to pieces, why them lord, why not me. The illusion of group power is a salve for a wound that can't heal. And so it goes, on, and on, feeding on the powerlessness of the broken survivors and the addictive craving for power of the leaders who rise to feed their addiction every day.

Third; Our moral systems are focused on individual morality and play into the hands of the power addicts who are driven to accumulate power through the use of organized group violence. The 10 commandments, the golden rule, the bodhisattva vow, all have merit when used as a guide for individual behavior. But in our world there are great differences between individuals in the power they hold, the options they have. Shouldn't the powerful be held to a higher standard than the weak? Should everyone be held to the same standard?

My reasoning tells me that the powerful have a wider range of realistic possible alternatives to choose between due to their relative powerfulness. They also have a much larger effect on more people than someone of lesser power. A rational moral system would seem to require that the greater the power of the individual the greater the moral requirement for action that benefits and does not harm. But is seems we all behave as if it were the reverse, the less power the higher the standard, the more power the lower the moral bar.

The real tradgedy is that most people in all of these countries...whether it be the USA,Iraq,Pakistan,India,UK,Isreal,Syria,Iran or lebanon do not want violence, the majority of mankind, the majority of humanity, the mass of this planet do not want this stinking horrible behaviour!

We have children in charge of our nations, like shoolboys they decide the fate of many innocent lives with the toss of a coin and the need for en Ego!

There is no we against you!

There is no my religion and your religion

There is No east or west, take the planet away!! blow the F****ing thing up! where is east and west now??....we live here as brothers and sisters in harmony, not as seperate entities.

If you take a glass of water and stand on the beach with it next to a great sea or ocean, this glass of water still only represents all of the hate and killing in the world next to the power and vastness of love that is the sea or ocean before you.... pour the glass of water into the sea it makes barely a splash and is gone, that is because without the sea... the glass of water would not be there, love is vast, it is a countless times greater than indifference and hatred between us our brothers and sisters.... my blood is your blood, my sweat is your sweat, my tears are your tears, your hunger is our Hunger, your despair is our despair, your Pain is Our Pain, Your Love is our Love............

The world is filled with endless possibilities...... so much so that we could spend the next 50 years killing eachother.......

even if that happens...... love is stronger than all of the words of hatred and governments from now till the end of time as we know it...

Love Conquers All....... we can remember tha now!

Or we can remember that at a great cost.....

Life is a deadly seriouse lesson, make no mistake about that..... you can push the button any time you want!

Simon

Hi Scott, I agree with you on everything, you are right on with the male dominance of all major religion, I think old testament breaks all the records in this regard, not that other two are any better. But I don't know if it is scripture's fault or the person interpreting within the context. From little what I have read, the male/female dynamic in neoplatonism to gnostic christianity to sufi Islam, is all there and visible. But obviously we are all looking at literal interpretation since ages, which is misguided.

For the benefit of Mary, a timeline, from Wiki

Hezbollah launches Katyusha rockets across the Lebanese border with Israel as a diversionary tactic, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area in the Golan Heights.
Hezbollah's military wing staged a cross-border attack in northern Israel on two Israeli Humvees. Three Israeli soldiers were killed and two were taken prisoner, with several civilians injured, captured two Israeli soldiers (Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev) at the border with occupied Palestine.

noname

Your post #65 was a lot more true than funny. Thanks.

I think norm and ruth will only be happy when someone like Dick Cheney is appointed secretary general of the UN.

Relative to the UN and its effectiveness remembered that America and its “coalition of the willing” are a big reason why the UN seems ineffective. It is difficult to address World problems as a United body when the biggest super power in world always chooses to go its own way.

Steve

It’s Nice to see you here again. Your reference to Lawrence of Arabia is very appropriate; I was just talking about him on another thread. The Arabs have Lawrence to thank for their independence, and if the movie (which is brilliant) isn’t a good enough source for what happened, anyone can read “The Seven Pillars of Wisdom” or “Evolution of a Revolt” both written by T.E. Lawrence.

Kind Regards
Stan

Scott,

I know where you are coming from, you have a good heart and are always well meaning, but you know as well as I do that your plea is not realistic, let me ask you a hypothetical:

Hezbollah only disarms, and Israel doesn't, what happens next?

Israel only disarms, and Hezbollah doesn't, what happens next?

Steve

Dear Ruth,
My mistake. I could not find your comment that included the word "anti-Semitic" reference to Kofi Annan. It must have been from another poster. It's just that your dislike for him has been so explicit, as the following comment shows:
"Kofi seems like a fine distinquished human being who would do much better say, in France, holding diplomatic dinner parties for the "in crowd," those who speak quietly, dress impeccably and love discussing, and discussing, and discussing whatever, over lunch, then cocktails, then dinner.
Kofi needs to be replaced."
72. Posted by ruth on July 22, 2006 09:02 AM

Again, my concern is for the Lebanese civilians. Like you, I think the state of Israel deserves to exist and to defend itself from terrorism. How one defends its land from terrorism is another issue.

Just wishing for lasting peace.
Love,
Donatella

Nice to hear from you as well Stan, in fact I was going to recommend those literary sources as well. I think it's good to look at the history of the region, it's vital, the pan-Arabian and pan-Islamic initiatives, also how the tribes unified in Arabia. People also have to realize that those regions have minoritiy populations that aren't Islamic. Afterall look at India during the Raj, I don't think you will get much support for a return.

Steve

Scott - I agree, the ammount of time pepole put into the who started this debate gets us no where. I think it is just a sign that people haven't given up the illusion that power over someone, achieved through force, will fill the void.

It isn't a rational thing. It is obvious that seeking the first cause can go on for a long time. The issue it obscures is the drive to power motivating the whole thing, and the fact that it is a choice. If the choice is acknowledged then the choosing party has to take naked responsibility.

My choice just killed, 37 children, 34 adults, they are dead, my choice killed them. We should not let the leaders of group violence off the moral hook. Whatever they say about their reasons, they choose, they killed. If it is not in immediate self defense, then how can you justify it.

I further feel that the more power the chooser has at their command the more restrained they must be. How did they get their share of the power. They probably used one form of domination or another to take it from someone else.

Hi and thanks Donatella,

I agree re: Germany and other Euro countries. Not much acceptance, however, workers are needed since Europe is imploding population wise.

Steve

Hello Everyone,

This has been an interesting discussion. I would have to say, though, that by most of the comments on this issue it is apparent to me why Islamic Extremists have faired so well in our World.

Truly, for me, all it took was one homicide bomber and the word "martyr" and I had no confusion as to the nature of this threat to peace, anywhere and everywhere. I am not being a "no it all" by saying this, I have felt this for years and simply could not understand the World's apparent acceptance of this act as any kind of justified response to anything. Truly, once that act was taken, they, the Extremists, should have been escorted from the table of the World Community and told not to come back until they learned how to behave, instead we invited them in, for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and now their bad behaviour is ruling the roost. Too bad.

It is apparent that the smokescreen of human beings they use, so successfully, to further their cause works wonders for them and not just in the MIDEAST.

Israel's retailiation to the attack on their Nations is harsh, but the enemy they are dealing is harsher, by leaps and bounds at least in my estimation.

Hezbollah uses private homes, hospitals, back yards, playgrounds as their own personal terror shop, they put these innocent people in the line of fire, purposely, and for what? To try to drive a Nation into non-existence. To try to get a land that will never in "all reality" be theirs. To fight for something they can never win. How much longer before the World Community sets them straight, gives them the true low down, says loud and clear IT IS OVER. THIS LAND WILL NEVE BE YOURS. You can choose to keep fighting but you cannot come running to the World Community when you get your you know what kicked. IT IS OVER.peace ruth

Hello Donatella,

You are right in that you could not find my comment about Kofi being anti-semitic because I never wrote it, and I have read a lot of comments on this issue and do not think anyone else wrote it either, but I could be mistaken.

Yes, the other comment is mine. True, I am not a fan of Kofi Annan's and his handling of this crisis makes me less of a fan.

Best wishes to you Donatella

Another interesting perspective from a Jew (this guy is basically participating in my murder if I were to be a citizen of Lebenon, with or without any association to any ideology, politics or religion)

""We must stop viewing Lebanon as a victim and begin to see it as a collaborator with terrorism. Nor is there any excuse for this choice. Lebanon was not "driven" to support Hezbollah by Israel or the U.S., as some Lebanese leaders falsely claim. Lebanon included Hezbollah in its government, knowing that it is a terrorist organization. It abdicated the responsibility for providing social, economic and police services in the south to Hezbollah.

The Nazi party too provided social, economic and educational services to the poor in Germany and Austria. Yet the people who chose to submit to such evil paid a heavy price. People make choices and they bear the consequences of choosing to collaborate with terrorism. Lebanon has chosen the wrong side and its citizens are paying the price. Maybe next time a democracy must choose between collaborating with terrorism or resisting terrorism, it will choose the right side.""
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/lebanon-is-not-a-victim_b_26715.html

So basically, this mentality suggest that they have a right to wipe out the whole of Islamic world, the so called 1.5 billion Muslims, in order to rid themselves of terrorism. If this is not the conclusion then I'm not sure what is.

Oh sorry, I forgot, Iran wants to wipe out the Israel, so why not they take the first initiative? Justified, right?

Let's see, what does it take to wipe out the whole of Islam from everywhere?

My head spins! I'd rather wait for the messiah even if he's a white guy with blue eyes and blond hair.

"The reality of victory isn't even the point anymore."

"Wars are places where illusions go to die."

Deeply powerful and clear.

Long blond hair, deep and ponderous blue eyes, proclaiming peace and love for all of humankind . . .

hmmm

interesting

or perhaps not unlike a modern day John the Baptist

the mysteries are ever unfolding . . .

a Northerner shall pave the way . . .

I leave now to face my demons friends, perhaps when I return I shall bring some answers, some hope, perhaps something even a repentant Lord did not see as he momentarily looked away . . .

Peace to all of my friends here at intentblog, EVERYBODY! I love everybody here! And I shall miss this place while I am gone, god-willing I shall soon return.

peace

Hey Noname, why didn't publish the "Jew's" complete article and let's get the whole Jew message - Amba "The Jew",

Lebanon has now declared war on Israel and its citizens are bearing the consequences. Lebanon is no more a victim of Hezbollah than Austria was a victim of Nazism. In fact a higher percentage of Lebanese--more than 80%--say they support Hezbollah. The figures were nearly as high before the recent civilian deaths.

This is considerably higher than the number of Austrians who supported Hitler when the Nazis marched into Austria in 1938. Austria too claimed it was a victim, but no serious person today believes such self-serving historical revisionism. Austria was not "Hitler's first victim." It was Hitler's most sympathetic collaborator.

So too with Lebanon, whose president has praised Hezbollah, whose army is helping Hezbollah, and many of whose "civilians" are collaborating with Hezbollah. According to a news report in the New York Times on Sunday, August 6th, Hezbollah is Lebanon and Lebanon is Hezbollah. It is "as much a part of society as is its Shiite faith." As a car mechanic put it, "we are Hezbollah." A café owner was even more direct: "Just because I'm sitting here in this café doesn't mean I'm not a resistance fighter." Of course if he were killed fighting Israel, his death would be listed as a "civilian" casualty. Nor is he alone. He continued: "Everyone has a weapon in his house...There are doctors, teachers, and farmers. Hezbollah is people. People are Hezbollah." Except, of course, when they are killed or injured fighting against Israel--then they become just 'people,' just "civilians." As a doctor asked rhetorically, as he pointed to dead bodies resulting from a battle between Israeli and Hezbollah forces, "Do you see anybody from Hezbollah?"

It is virtually impossible to distinguish the Hezbollah dead from the truly civilian dead, just as it is virtually impossible to distinguish the Hezbollah living from the civilian living, especially in the south. The "civilian" death figures reported by Lebanese authorities include large numbers of Hezbollah fighters, collaborators, facilitators and active supporters. They also include civilians who were warned to leave, but chose to remain, sometimes with their children, to serve as human shields. The deaths of these "civilians" are the responsibility of Hezbollah and the Lebanese government, which has done very little to protect its civilians.

Lebanon has chosen sides--not all Lebanese, but the democratically chosen Lebanese government. When a nation chooses sides in a war, especially when it chooses the side of terrorism, its civilians pay a price for that choice. This has been true of every war.

We must stop viewing Lebanon as a victim and begin to see it as a collaborator with terrorism. Nor is there any excuse for this choice. Lebanon was not "driven" to support Hezbollah by Israel or the U.S., as some Lebanese leaders falsely claim. Lebanon included Hezbollah in its government, knowing that it is a terrorist organization. It abdicated the responsibility for providing social, economic and police services in the south to Hezbollah.

The Nazi party too provided social, economic and educational services to the poor in Germany and Austria. Yet the people who chose to submit to such evil paid a heavy price. People make choices and they bear the consequences of choosing to collaborate with terrorism. Lebanon has chosen the wrong side and its citizens are paying the price. Maybe next time a democracy must choose between collaborating with terrorism or resisting terrorism, it will choose the right side.

Brother Craig,

What are we talking about here? I hope you are safe and yes you will come back to IntentBlog, I did, and I didn't really want to, however, it does call one back, so how about an update soon buddy,

OK, I love you too, we all do, to me you are the mystic monk!!!

Amba

Dear Craig,
It's nearly 2:30 a.m. - and the moonlight this early morning is really clear, no cloud in sight, the summer warmth not bad - with night sky to mask the strong rays of sun.

What struggle are you yet again in, that Love would not have you lay down, and find yourself, renewed and refreshed.

Perhaps, now - as you leave Intent for a short time, you will find - seek within, a peace and solace you cannot see or find in 'Ceasar's' world.

I pray this for you.

May each of us awake to a fresh new day, no malice or discontent in our hearts.
With love,
~ Kate

You're a Peach Dear Ruth!! Doesn't it amaze you Ruth the world cannot see what you said there. Christ!! Whom do you call on the table?? Who can talk and understand the language of words.

I cudn't have agreed more with your description of Mr.Kofi. I feel sad for him actually, poor guy what can he do. He's just Impotent in that position in the barbaric world we live in, where Might is Right is the principle.

My first reaction after I read your simple clear post was to kiss you on the cheek. Hope, you don't mind but that's how I felt.

Love!

Steve, just for the record, the first act of war this year..

May 29

Israeli ground troops enter Gaza for the first time since withdrawing eight months ago. They kill four Palestinians, including a policeman.

You can see the full timeline here

http://www.counterpunch.org/lin07252006.html

Mary

If the people do not fear death, why threaten them with it?

Scott,

First of all no apology or thanks due to me about how long Islam has been around. The eagle-eyed Onegirl mentioned it. I thought it was a typo!

Your point about us re-hashing the whole thing so often is so true. So lets just get down to taking a fresh look, the old way simply hasn't worked. Israel, Palestine have been on the UN agenda and the world's focus for almost 60 years now. (Can't even say till the cows come home, do cows live that long?)

A way needs to be found whereby Israel is guaranteed its right to exist in peace. We are talking of about 20,000 sq. km. of land and a population of 7 million. (Populationwise its less than any major Indian city!) As I understand it, a lot of that land was actually sold by Arab landowners to members of the Jewish community. On Israel's part, it needs to withdraw from about 8,000 sq km of occuppied territory. Why any of this should be difficult to execute is beyond me.

Dara: it is often repeated about Israel's right to exist.

NEWSFLASH!!!!

Israel exists. Has secure borders. A police force. A government and a secure and excellent civil infrastructure.

The problem is not Israel's right to live as others do, it is Palestine and the disinfranchised Palestinian people who have none of the above. Even when they elect a government Israel bombs, assasinates, kidnaps and imprisons these representatives with impunity.

Stop pretending balance in a world where there is none in the first place.

Israel is right now denying the Palestinians even the right to free water or electricity let alone the other rights aforded people across the border.

Tao,

So are you saying Israel doesn't have a problem of security? Have you heard the Iranian President of late?

There are faults on both sides. I think both sides have rights and both are in the wrong. I have heard enough people bash one side or another depending on which camp they belong to. So lets just continue and wring our hands and shed crocodile tears about innocents, Palestinians and Israelis. Problem solved? No, because there are simply too many vested interests. Of course its not a balanced world, why not try to restore some? I see too much pontification by those who matter and too few concrete steps.

This blame game is bugging me too.

In my post at 93 I don't mean to solely blame the Israelis, in fact, one of my best friends is Israeli.

I think it is really important that both sides understand the others point of view.

Mary

Dara: I am afraid you are the one in the wrong. Palestinians have NO "rights". Period.

Until the Palestinian issue is addressed this will keep on and on, unless of course the Palestinians are wiped from the map.

That appears to be the Israeli/US agenda.

The Iranian President has every right to be outraged. Stop buying into the propaganda:

Rule # 7:
When you say “Hezbollah,” always be sure to add “supported by Syria and Iran.”

Show me one single Iranian terrorist in the past 50 years. Just one.

However, you can't even begin to count the casualties from US and Israeli genocide.

Mary: when you speak out on anything you cannot speak out for both the right and the wrong. Make your mind up! You cannot say, "the murderer had just cause" when he kills an unarmed innocent child.

Truth is valued much higher than balance in the eyes of God.

At least Hizbullah is largely targetting the Israeli Army. Israel targets anyone not Israeli. Anyone.

To date

Hizbullah: 95 killed

Civilians: 998 killed

To date

Military: 63 killed

Civilians: 35 killed

And incidentally. The UK had a security problem for more than 30 years. Even when the US backed terrorist organisation the IRA bombed the British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, killing and wounding many Cabinet members by bombing the hotel they occupied in Brighton, the British did not take the slightest military action against the government or people of Ireland. They dealt with the securtiy issue rather than punish the entire Irish people.

Why is Israel unable to show the same restraint. Well it has been made clear several times right here by the racist Zionist cheerleaders. Arabs and Moslems are no more than "mad dogs" in the eyes of such racist and nationalist ignorance.

I am not taking sides. I am telling you Truth. Let them hear who have the ears to hear.

The second set of figures were Israeli casualties.

Hello Everyone,

Hi Ambasteve,

Your post #89 says it all about the responsibilities of Lebanon in this matter.

I listened to the Lebanese speaker at some of the UN meetings and was very disheartened by their words. One thing, the use of the word "martyr" should be banned from all discussions pertaining to this matter. It is an important oversight on the part of the UN leaders.peace ruth

Hi Harley!

You are right, Ruth. They shouldn't be called Martyrs. They should be called "cannon fodder". Or "future victims of Israeli tyranny".

Or "Ruth's hated".

Ruth, I asked you this before but you didnt answer.

Do you believe that an Israeli life is worth more than a Lebonese or Palestinian?

Do you think that an Israeli has more human rights than a Lebonese or Palestinian?

Mary

Stan....Dick Cheney? SecGen of the UN!! Alright, bring it on!! I'd love it!! Anyone he doesnt' like....well...he could just take'em bird huntin'!!!

Ruth....for the sake of your own sanity...I hope there come's a point you just debate these things with these guys...for fun. (for lack of a better word) You can't win. You see, Ruth, a true liberal has a template, a lens thru which they see the world...it goes something like this: If America is involved...we must oppose it!! American is evil!!

Toastmeister and Yogi one....y'all crack me up! You speak in absolutes, as though you're the voice of God! (whoever that is)

Mary, I can't speak for Ruth, but since I usually come down beside her in these discussions, I'll take a stab at answering your questions. I don't think one life is worth more than another....generically speaking. Israeli life worth more than Palestinian...so on so forth. BUT....if you and your family, swear to wipe out my family....yes...all of a sudden, my kids lives become more important to me than your kids lives. And under those circumstances...i will take you out if I can.

I know it amazes you guys that we can't see your way of looking at it, but in a nutshell, here's the way it appears before my little eyes!! There have been arguments on this blog about Israels borders and who took what from whom. The Arabs want to kill Israel, not just because of where she lives, but because of who she is. She is not Muslim. It's that simple. This is a conflict of Radical Islamofascists wanting to wipe away all unlike themselves. Israel is the focal point...but how do you explain the terrorist plots in Canada? Mumbai? Chechnya? Oh yeah, I forgot...poverty!! And George Bush!!

Israel defends herself against those who would destroy her. If she lays down arms today, she will cease to exist tomorrow...that'd make some of you happy...right? I mean after all, Israel is an American ally!!

I'm typing hurriedly, hopefully some of this makes sense!!

By the way....Lieberman got beat yesterday!!! Now the fun begins!! He'll spank his candy assed opponent in the general election...my prediction!!!

Y'all have a great day!

norm

Norm

You said "The Arabs want to kill Israel, not just because of where she lives, but because of who she is."

I do not believe this, and I have discussed this with Arabs who feel the same.

A minority of Arabs want to distroy Israel. The problem is that Israel treats its neighbours so badly that moderates are turning to fight Israel.

Not because of where it is but what it does!

If it stopped behaving in such an aggressive manner it would be a lot safer!

Mary

Mary,

We are talking about Hezbollah, not Hamas in this case, two separate groups here.

BTW, how many rockets has Hamas launched this past year since Israel moved out of Gaza?

Steve

Mary,

Maybe the better question to ask is why Hezbollah would use humans as sheilds?

Or why Hezbollah would randomly launch rockets into Israel and killing Arab Israelis? It seems that they seem to have no regard for human life except their own.

Human sheilds Mary. They move into position right next to a school or a mosque or an apartment or a hospital or in a crowded civilian population and launch rockets and kill Israelis randomly , then they scamper like rats to try to avoid bombing Mary, then guess what happens?

Steve

According to reliable Israeli sources 35000 rockets were fired by Hamas just last week. Proof of this was unveiled when a used Intafada MkII shell was found in a field in Mr Leiberman's 600 acre farm.

How much more evidence does the world need.

Lebanon has fired 3000 missiles and at least 6 have hit targets (cities).

Either they are crap shots or someone in the department of records is exagerating!

Norm : you make no sense at all, as usual. Do you have a pin up of Forest Gump on your wall?

Hey, no brainer, Steve. Where did you take your holiday? The American Institute for Zionist brainwashing?

The Mafia lives amongst the population too. Should we arrest and imprison everyone who knows them?

It is the nature of any resistance movement to hide itself amongst the indigenous population. It has been the same in every war. Ask the French? Oh, I forgot, you don't speak to the French because they dared to disagree about Iraq, on which they were 100% correct.

Steve, lets be very clear here. I would not and have never defended Hezbollah or Hamas or anyone who takes life as a solution.

I dont defend them, but I can in some way understand they do it. And I can understand to some extent why the Israelis do what they do. I dont believe anyone gets out of bed in the morning and decides to kill someone else for no reason.

What is important is how is it resolved. What is the solution? How can we help? And I dont believe it is done by having our own private war on the boards, in fact I think that this adds fuel to the fire. Thoughts are creative, and I believe we are adding to the conflict.

Solutions would be good!

Mary

Mary

Toastmeister: How'd you guess? IB is gettin' kinda like a box of chocolates....you never know what you're gonna get!! :-)

norm

Mary you said: A minority of Arabs want to distroy Israel.

I wouldn't disagree with that totally. The problem? The majority sits by and lets the minority wreak havoc...then...there's that little thing called consequences!!

norm

"Where do they get the right to preach to Israel?" Olmert said when asked about criticism from European capitals of Israeli military operations that have led to a heavy civilian toll.

"European countries attacked Kosovo and killed ten thousand civilians. Ten thousand! And none of these countries had to suffer before that from a single rocket.

"I'm not saying it was wrong to intervene in Kosovo. But please: Don't preach to us about the treatment of civilians"

-Primer Minister Olmert

Can anyone please explain why their wasn't massive protests in Europe over the killing of THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in Kosovo?

Steve

Hello Everyone,

do not have much time, but

Mary, I think if you read through my comments on this blog and others I mentioned some ways that might be helpful in solving this issue, simplistic though they may be. I think Norm did a good job in answering the question as to the the value of one life over another. Again if you read through my posts it is clear I do not value one above another just because I happen to defend one party and find definite fault with another.

gotta run.peace all ruth

Steve...no they can't explain it to you, at least not in a substantive way.

I know I'm simplistic, you know, Forest Gump and all, but the template with the world wide liberal is Amercia's wrong, American allies wrong, everyone else...especially Europe..right!!

To the enlightened intellectuals like toastmaster, this is too simple...but the big problems usually are simple!

norm

Norm

re: A minority of Arabs want to distroy Israel.

You said"I wouldn't disagree with that totally. The problem? The majority sits by and lets the minority wreak havoc...then...there's that little thing called consequences!!"

The problem is we are dumb enough to listen only to the fanatical minorities.

Eg In Ireland only a small minority supported the IRA, but they were the ones who got the airtime on TV. Nobody wanted to hear the majority who were against violence.

If 10 Arabs said we want peace and one says we want to distroy Israel, we only see and hear that one fanatic.

And we are dumb enough to believe they are all like that and it is simply not true.

In the past, Hamas and Hezbollah got most of their votes because they built hospitals and schools and looked after the people, not because of their agression to Israel.

Mary

Steve,

I know what would happen if one side or the other did not retaliate, there would be death and destruction (at least for a while). But there already is death and destruction. The current conflict between Israel and much of the Muslem world has been going on forever. Frankly the techniques and strategies that both sides use are not advancing them toward what either party wants.

I've said this many times, If I were in charge of ISrael and it was my sacred duty to protect her, I don't think I could lay down my arms. I might take the same course of action as the current administration is doing. Having said that it is clear to me that the course of action that Israel is on will not make them more safe, nor will it defeat Islamic extremism.

If you read all of the points on this blog, you can only come to the conclusion that both sides are right...both sides have clear reasons for taking the actions that they are taking. However, both sides are constantly repeating actions that have not had the results that they wish. THAT is the definition of insanity.

I think we are currently in a Kobiashi Maru situation (Star Trek geeks will know what I'm talking about): essentially a no win situation and the only way to beat the situation is to change the rules.

Peace,
Scott.

Mary...guess we'll never agree!! Bob Guyer says we can't use local examples as a view of the macro...but I disagree with him also! If your house is next to mine. Their are 10 people in your house. One of those people shoots at me everytime i walk past a window. Do I set here and feel empathy for the nine? Or after awhile do I blow up your whole damned house, to save my family?? I hope you've said your prayers!!!

Scott?? No win?? Maybe so...but if Israel stops and disarms...there won't just be death and destruction...they will cease to exist...there is a difference between attrition and annihilation!! Even so...I'm with you...the rules have gotta change somewhere...I just don't know where!

norm

Hi Scott,

I wonder if you were in charge of protecting Israel, why would you want to take a path which you are sure that won't make Israel any safer?

Mary...in my little homely example above...the nine are responsible for the one...or in other words...Lebanon is paying the price for not rooting out Hezbollah....

norm

"I think we are currently in a .... no win situation and the only way to beat the situation is to change the rules." - Scott

Highly interesting!

Maybe it is reason of the complex history in the middle east. Now it's a framework for destruction. A proof that we cannot unite from ideas. The platform has grow to reach the explosion's point.

Shifted minds!

Norm,

Im sure we will agree on something someday.

In the meantime, of course, everyone is entitled to their point of view.

Back to your homely example.

30,000 people died today of hunger, partly due to unfair trade.

Are you saying that who are dying due to the hunger created by unfair trade are entitled to come and blow you and I to bits because we did nothing about it?

Mary

Hello Everyone,

Mary, you write

"In the past, Hamas and Hezbollah got most of their votes because they built hospitals and schools and looked after the people, not because of their agression to Israel."

Yes, they build hospitals, schools, and do provide many social service, but at what price?
You have to go along with their payment plans which is those schools and hospitals will store missiles, (great smokescreen) for the the great battle against the "evil occupier." The neigborhoods are their launching pads. Also, you have to support the fight, the cause to get back the "land." How many years, now, has this been going on? So, you have the schools, the hospitals, everything is hunky dory and they decide to launch a strike and boom THERE GOES THE HOSPITALS, THE SCHOOLS AND THE PEOPLE ARE BACK TO ZERO. AND, STILL, THEY HAVE NOT COME UP WITH THE PRISE "THE PROMISED PIECE OF PROPERTY" and, of course, that is the real sad truth to all this insanity, THEY WILL NEVER COME UP WITH THE PRISE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, THE PRISE IS ALREADY TAKEN.

SO HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH WILL TELL THE PEOPLE DO NOT WORRY WILL WILL REBUILD AND TRY AGIAN NEXT YEAR! CAN'T WAIT!

Gee, What is wrong with this picture? peace ruth

Ruth,

You may have misinterpreted what I said.

I am not condoning what they do, I am saying that just because someone votes for Hamas or Hezbollah does not mean they want to distroy Israel.

Mary

Hi Ruth...How are you? Of late I've liked reading Norm's comments with yours. Scott presented a good picture and Norm said Attrition or Annihilation? When the situation comes to that stage, one has to in Defence. You never know, if this approach destroys the terror camps and the terrorists and therefore work. I'm a peace lover, I don't even believe in Army personally, but I know how the world works. Hypothetically, if those wonderful guys blow up Chopra center, I wud like to see the reaction of the Chopras. It's always easier said than done.

It's all fine here, you know on the blogs to discuss and analyse....but the real things happen there on the ground. I reckon as long as Israel is backed by the Mighty US, the odds are in its favor...the only fear is that of the nuke. One nuke One dh is all it needs and that is the Bane of 21st century we live in. Something which is a real threat, not an Illusionary one.

Love!

Naj -

I didn't say that I would "want to" take the path that Israel is on, but I don't know if I would have the courage to essentially take a leap of faith and stand down. It's a big gamble for Israel. If your family and friends were threatened with extinction (and this is actually POLICY of some of these Islamic Nations) would you have the courage to stand with your arms held wide? If you would, I applaud your level of consciousness and fearlessness. Even though I do think ultimately that that is the only answer (For either Israel or Lebanon)I can honestly say that I don't think I could do it.

Peace,
Scott.

In fact, I think we are fighting against the only possibility.

We are scared... all our good thoughts, all our efforts didn't work to bring peace, in our family, in our neighborhoods.

How scary it is! We are tired to fight, to understand, to analyze, to be productive for an illusion.

In reality we "guess" the unique move we should do. We even feel an attraction. But like a statue we are paralyzed.

Scary flavor of a global change. Scary felling coming from inside when the time comes to abandon all interpratations of what is life.

Scary is the reality to get naked, without any civilazed clothes. Mad we are, in front of people that teach us to dress in black.

Let's get extreme clean. Let's get extreme natural and simple. Let's loose our minds. Let's get amazed to discover, to meet the ultimate solution.

Watch out, get ready, the last change will be full of joy. It's there. Listen, it's already coming.

It's been a fascinating, albeit heated, discussion among some posters. I welcome all views because differences make the world more interesting.

Among some well balanced viewpoints about the war in Lebanon, I have been reading the posts by two people, perhaps three. These posts have one factor in common: they portray a global theater in which force and ruthlessness are the only solutions. Let's not even start a discussion about the spiritual content of this one-sided perception of today's world.

The sad truth is that a dehumanized view of Lebanon and its inhabitants will not benefit Israel in the long run. Already, the killing of almost hundreds Lebanese civilians has had the result to outrage the world, except for the U.S. government -- although Condoleeza Rice is suddenly doing some soul searching.

But there is another result which is even more troubling to me. This is the Israeli amazing feat -- in just a few days -- of uniting the various religious factions in the Arab world. That is, these factions (which include Christians) are finally agreeing in their strong condemnation of Israel's military "presence" in Lebanon and are uniting in their new -- but not surprising --support for Hezbollah. "Elementary, Watson!" as Sherlock Holmes would say.

May this apparent loss of reason and common sense, by the Israeli leaders, be the last mistake that humanity has to witness before finding more peaceful solutions in this new millennium.
Peace

Please omit the "almost" in hundreds Lebanese civilians. I was thinking almost one thousand.

Hello,

I don't know if you've got already the news in the US - but it seems as if there is an ecological catastophe coming up too on the Libanese and Syrian coast from the bombing. We got the information that there is petrol floating from the electrical central of Jyie (25 km from Beyrouth) into the meditarian sea. 140 km of sea shore are already poluted and now the polution is reaching the Syrian coast.

My prayers goes for all those who are entangled in this madness

Madness! You got the rt word though Ida:)

We better come up with some "Creative Solutions" soon otherwise things can get very scary. Taomaster what do think of this possible scenerio from those fun loving folks in Iran?

Cheers, Steve

Iran Watch by Chad Evans

We’re three weeks away from some Iranian surprise as announced by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Iranian funded Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah has also repeatedly announced a surprise is on the way for Israel. Are the two messages connected?

On August 22 Iran, on their timeline, will give the world the response regarding a proposal for Iran to end it’s military nuclear program. August 22 (Rajab 27, 1427) is the day Muslims celebrate Mohammed’s ascension into Heaven called the Miraj.

According to Islamic tradition, Muhammad was carried on a Buraq, a miraculous horse with a human head, from Mecca to Jerusalem, where he ascended into heaven and met the other prophets.

A great light shone upon Mohammed’s body in the Aqsa Mosque and a prophet was received while his followers cheered. Ahmadinejad now plans on remaking that divine light over Jerusalem.

And now, according to Ghadry, Ahmadinejad is planning an illumination of the night sky over Jerusalem to rival the one that greeted the Prophet of Islam on his journey. What the Iranian President, he says, is “promising the world by August 22 is the light in the sky over the Aqsa Mosque that took place the night before. That is his answer to the package of incentives the international community offered Iran on June 6.”

What would light up the sky over Jerusalem with regard to Iranian involvement? One can conclude this means either a Hezbollah assault on Jerusalem, an Iranian war against Israel in Jerusalem or a nuclear bomb. The latter is the most far-fetched only because it’s not believed Iran has a nuclear weapon, but what else would create a series of magical lights that light up the sky over the sacred mosque, that’s built on top of a synagogue by the way?

Ahmadinejad has made it perfectly clear he wishes to end the life of the state of Israel, wiping it from the map, in several speeches and an entire conference held to discuss ‘The World Without Zionism.’ What is often not told in the the Western media is that during this same conference Ahmadinejad called for the complete destruction of the United States and the imagery used at the conference was an Israeli globe falling after the United States globe was already on the ground laying in shatters.

Ahmadinejad is a firm believer in the Twelth Imam who is the Shia Muslim right-doer who emerges from a well in Qom, Iran during the Apocalypse to save mankind. He travels down to Qom periodically and drops letters down the well, presumably to the 12th Imam. The 12th Imam is much like other religion’s doomsday scenarios and outcomes, but in Shia Islam the Apocalypse must be brought upon by mankind and it is desired. In order for the Shia Islam apocalypse to come to fruition, or at least how Ahmadinejad believes it, there must be a great war and the clensing of certain areas and certain people. That area is present day Israel and the people are Jews.

That was Informative Steve. How do you deal with such Opium heads? Have to be on the alert.

We talk a lot here about understanding others, well here is a recent survey conducted in England:

Survey reveals backing for 7/7 attacks
8.36, Mon Aug 7 2006

Almost a quarter of British Muslims believe the July 7 terror were justified because of Britain's support for the war on terror, a poll has revealed.

And nearly half said the 9/11 attacks on New York were a conspiracy between the US and Israel.

The survey found Muslims under the age of 24 were twice as likely to justify the 7/7 attacks as those aged over 45.

It found 24 per cent across all age groups either agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified, although 48 per cent said they "strongly disagreed" and 17 per cent said they did not know.

A third of those questioned said they would rather live under Sharia law in the UK than British law.

The survey also reveals concerns among Muslims about Britain's moral standards, with 40 per cent saying it is a country of bad moral behaviour, and 66 per cent saying parents allow their children too much freedom

Hi Steve and All,
I am on my way out to dinner but I wanted to share this interesting analysis.

Philip Slater has an A.B. and Ph. D. from Harvard and taught sociology at Harvard, Brandeis, and UCSC.

"There are two basic strategies for fighting terrorism. One is employed by the United States, Israel, and Russia. The other by most of the rest of the world. Countries like India, Spain, France, and Italy use the method of containment--prosecuting terrorists as criminals and leaving it at that. The U.S., Israel, and Russia prefer making war on someone.
Great Britain has used both approaches--the first with the IRA, the second with Al Qaida.

The containment approach has the advantage of limiting the damage. There's a terrorist attack, people are killed, some perpetrators are arrested, in a few months things return to normal for all but those directly affected. For them it's a continuing trauma, but no more so than for any plane crash, earthquake, fire, hurricane, train wreck, flood, or other calamity.

The make-war approach has the advantage of discharging the desire for revenge. Revenge is hard come by, of course, in cases like 9/11, since the perpetrators are already dead. And you can't make war on their leaders, because they're individuals, not a country, and they're hard to locate. And you can't make war on the country they and their leader came from--Saudi Arabia--because it's an ally. And you can't make war on the country their leaders are hiding in--Pakistan--because it's also an ally. So your only solution is to inflict terror on a third party, like Iraq, even though it had nothing to with 9/11. But this will only make you feel better for a little while, since after you've destroyed this country, you find you've created thousands more terrorists than you started out with, and now you have to find someone else to make war on, since you've already made life as miserable for the new terrorists as you possibly can.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-slater/anitterrorism-strategies_b_26879.html

Hey Amba,

Good to see ya made it back!

Hope you enjoyed your Sabbath,

listening to B.S.!

(Black Sabbath, etc.)

"Ironman", "Machine-Head", "Welcome To Machine"...

B.S., D.P., P.F.!

Where is Happy Zappy when ya need him?

Roll the dice...turn a card...roll the wheel...

Bingo!!!

One wins, as always!

Everybody else? Collateral downpayments...

Escrow accounts and "good faith" bargains...

Or, "To hell with you! I'm not buying it!!!"

"Sell War with Words."

"Buy Peace with Guns!"

"Mortgage Your Life Away!"

"Take That To The Bank!"

"Tell Them "That" Sent You!"

"Thou Art "That"?"

Each and every one of us...earthlings!

Determined to crawl on our bellies like reptiles!

Thanks to a bunch of machine-heads with badges.

"Rage against the machine", folks...

soon...real soon!

Shalom Keith, I took a little jaunt to Boston, now back and just couldn't resist, too much to debate, and in spite of what some people think on IB , debate is a good thing and doesn't contribute to the conflict. I don't understand when things get a little hot here, people just don't like conflict like it's wrong to argue.

Joe Liberman didn't tow the party line, supported the war (as many dems did as well) and this can't be tolerated in the new Democratic party. All must be aligned. I think this is quite scary, no room for tolerance, the former V.P. candidate, Joe you must be in lock step or else.

And also dear Donatella, it's interesting that you speak of these issues in pychological terms ie "But this will only make you feel better for a little while..."

I find this interesting, feelings become the standard to judge world events. If it feels bad it must be bad, so one day I could feel bad , next day I feel good , what of the world?

Peace...I think or I feel.. it's very confusing

Amba

Yo Steve,

"Feelings..." so many songs...

"Get Smart!" so many movies...

Isn't that why it's so important

to make sure of your purpose for being

HERE!

Who am I and why am I here...or there, momentarily...

Jung thought that there was no commitment

without an emotional resonance to drive the urge

DEEP!

You use your heart to live with a certain attitude.

You use your brain to carry out that objective.

You do not cause your emotions to fire.

You cannot control thoughts from nowhere.

What serves your life's purpose,

and what does not?

That which does lifts your Spirits.

If...but...what then...you mean?

Your emotions can sail with the wind. Let them!

Your purpose steers the ship.

Ships Ahoy!

Why do we keep saying Wars are Wars? Damages are Immeasurable! I don't think I've seen a single blogger here who readily advocates War. Almost everyone talks of restraint first, only when those things don't work on those beautiful heads then we do go for the last resort.

It's quite true the War on Iraq turned out into a disaster. It was grossly underestimated, poorly planned. You never attack a country becoz there are pockets of terrorists camps, this is the Biggest problem in dealing with them. They nicely hide in the civilian areas.

Restraint with opium heads?:) I sometimes think, we cud very well wake up on a fine morning here, as it was on 9/11 and saw planes being crashed into the towers, that a news reader will announce
"Sorry to inform you Folks Israel doesn't exist anymore". The hatred in the opium heads has gone to that extent. Having lived in a muslim area, I've interacted with these Fundys at a very close quarters. So, I know them in&out.

Will this Israel approach work? Or will it turn out to be a Disaster?

We all analyse and reach to our answers, but Time will best tell us.

Norm, it is really quite simple. If my neighbour with a family of ten fires a gun at me when I pass his window, I report it to the police. Law enforcement officers descend on the location. Eventually a search is conducted, the gun retrieved and the guy who fired the gun will be charged for possession of a weapon with intent to do harm or attempted murder. There will be a trial. He will probably go to prison.

In most civilized countries that is how its done.

But hey, Norm, go ahead. Bomb the whole family. Take out a few sympathetic neighbours that may have been friends with members of the family. In fact, just in case, kill anyone they knew who happened to be a "towel head" or "opium head" or "mad dog". You can't be too careful where these wogs are concerned.

Although I haven't seen your approach to law enforcement practiced in the USA, it can't be long before Arab and Moslem homes all over America will be fearing the "Norm factor".

You're no Forest Gump, Norm. Forest Gump was stupid but harmless. You have an all together less desirable quality.

Steve: "he said, she said" - I am sorry my impotent little adversary, but your sources are as reliable as those that told us there were WMD's in Iraq or that Iraq was connected to the 9/11 attacks.

Most of your quotes are propaganda for the benefit of the American media illiterate who can't tell the difference between a fact and a claim.

Here are the actual words of the Iranian President in his letter to the US President a few weeks ago. I doubt if Bush or you, Ruth and Norm will read them. In your case it is in your nature to only rely on views and "opinions" that continue to bolster your own delusions. In the case of Ruth, Norm and Bush they suffer with the commonest of American frailties - a short attention span.

Unfortunately for them, Ahmadi-Nejad is not big on sound bites like "you're either with us or against us". Reading his letter he seems very articulate, intelligent, thoughtful and reasonable. That's probably why the US administration dismissed the letter that follows.

I recommend everyone reads it. Brevity is not his strong point, but you will get a clearer flavor for the man. Is this the terrible murderer "claimed" to have killed 1000 of his own people? Or a guy with a misplaced ideology in today's reality?

Judge for yourself:

Mr George Bush, President of the United States of America, For sometime now I have been thinking, how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena -- which are being constantly debated, especially in political forums and amongst university students. Many questions remain unanswered. These have prompted me to discuss some of the contradictions and questions, in the hope that it might bring about an opportunity to redress them.

Can one be a follower of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the great Messenger of God, feel obliged to respect human rights, present liberalism as a civilization model, announce one's opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons and WMDs, make "War on Terror" his slogan, and finally, work towards the establishment of a unified international community - a community which Christ and the virtuous of the Earth will one day govern, but at the same time, have countries attacked. The lives, reputations and possessions of people destroyed and on the slight chance of the presence of a few criminals in a village, city, or convoy for example, the entire village, city or convoy (are) set ablaze.

Or because of the possibility of the existence of WMDs in one country, it is occupied, around one hundred thousand people killed, its water sources, agriculture and industry destroyed, close to 180,000 foreign troops put on the ground, sanctity of private homes of citizens broken, and the country pushed back perhaps fifty years. At what price? Hundreds of billions of dollars spent from the treasury of one country and certain other countries and tens of thousands of young men and women - as occupation troops - put in harms way, taken away from family and loved ones, their hands stained with the blood of others, subjected to so much psychological pressure that everyday some commit suicide and those returning home suffer depression, become sickly and grapple with all sorts of ailments; while some are killed and their bodies handed to their families.

On the pretext of the existence of WMDs, this great tragedy came to engulf both the peoples of the occupied and the occupying country. Later it was revealed that no WMDs existed to begin with.

Of course Saddam was a murderous dictator. But the war was not waged to topple him, the announced goal of the war was to find and destroy weapons of mass destruction. He was toppled along the way towards another goal; nevertheless the people of the region are happy about it. I point out that throughout the many years of the imposed war on Iran Saddam was supported by the West.

Mr. President, You might know that I am a teacher. My students ask me how can these actions be reconciled with the values outlined at the beginning of this letter and duty to the tradition of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the Messenger of peace and forgiveness? There are prisoners in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried, have no legal representation, their families cannot see them and are obviously kept in a strange land outside their own country. There is no international monitoring of their conditions and fate. No one knows whether they are prisoners, POWs, accused or criminals.

European investigators have confirmed the existence of secret prisons in Europe too. I could not correlate the abduction of a person, and him or her being kept in secret prisons, with the provisions of any judicial system. For that matter, I fail to understand how such actions correspond to the values outlined in the beginning of this letter, i.e. the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH), human rights and liberal values.

Young people, university students, and ordinary people have many questions about the phenomenon of Israel. I am sure you are familiar with some of them.

Throughout history many countries have been occupied, but I think the establishment of a new country with a new people, is a new phenomenon that is exclusive to our times.

Students are saying that sixty years ago such a country did not exist. They show old documents and globes and say try as we have, we have not been able to find a country named Israel.

I tell them to study the history of WWI and II. One of my students told me that during WWII, which more than tens of millions of people perished in, news about the war, was quickly disseminated by the warring parties. Each touted their victories and the most recent battlefront defeat of the other party. After the war they claimed that six million Jews had been killed. Six million people that were surely related to at least two million families.

Again let us assume that these events are true. Does that logically translate into the establishment of the state of Israel in the Middle East or support for such a state? How can this phenomenon be rationalized or explained?

Mr. President, I am sure you know how - and at what cost - Israel was established: -Many thousands were killed in the process.

-Millions of indigenous people were made refugees.

-Hundreds of thousands of hectares of farmland, olive plantations, towns and villages were destroyed.

This tragedy is not exclusive to the time of establishment; unfortunately it has been ongoing for sixty years now.

A regime has been established which does not show mercy even to kids, destroys houses while the occupants are still in them, announces beforehand its list and plans to assassinate Palestinian figures, and keeps thousands of Palestinians in prison. Such a phenomenon is unique - or at the very least extremely rare - in recent memory.

Another big question asked by the people is "why is this regime being supported?" Is support for this regime in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH) or Moses (PBUH) or liberal values? Or are we to understand that allowing the original inhabitants of these lands - inside and outside Palestine -- whether they are Christian, Moslem or Jew, to determine their fate, runs contrary to principles of democracy, human rights and the teachings of prophets? If not, why is there so much opposition to a referendum? The newly elected Palestinian administration recently took office. All independent observers have confirmed that this government represents the electorate. Unbelievingly, they have put the elected government under pressure and have advised it to recognize the Israeli regime, abandon the struggle and follow the programs of the previous government.

If the current Palestinian government had run on the above platform, would the Palestinian people have voted for it? Again, can such position taken in opposition to the Palestinian government be reconciled with the values outlined earlier? The people are also asking "Why are all UNSC resolutions in condemnation of Israel vetoed?" Mr. President, As you are well aware, I live amongst the people and am in constant contact with them -- many people from around the Middle East manage to contact me as well. They do not have faith in these dubious policies either. There is evidence that the people of the region are becoming increasingly angry with such policies.

It is not my intention to pose too many questions, but I need to refer to other points as well.

Why is it that any technological and scientific achievement reached in the Middle East region is translated into and portrayed as a threat to the Zionist regime? Is not scientific R&D one of the basic rights of nations? You are familiar with history. Aside from the Middle Ages, in what other point in history has scientific and technical progress been a crime? Can the possibility of scientific achievements being utilized for military purposes be reason enough to oppose science and technology altogether? If such a supposition is true, then all scientific disciplines, including physics, chemistry, mathematics, medicine, engineering, etc. must be opposed.

Lies were told in the Iraqi matter. What was the result? I have no doubt that telling lies is reprehensible in any culture, and you do not like to be lied to.

Mr. President, Don't Latin Americans have the right to ask why their elected governments are being opposed and coup leaders supported? Or, Why must they constantly be threatened and live in fear? The people of Africa are hardworking, creative and talented. They can play an important and valuable role in providing for the needs of humanity and contribute to its material and spiritual progress. Poverty and hardship in large parts of Africa are preventing this from happening. Don't they have the right to ask why their enormous wealth - including minerals - is being looted, despite the fact that they need it more than others? Again, do such actions correspond to the teachings of Christ and the tenets of human rights? The brave and faithful people of Iran too have many questions and grievances, including: the coup d'etat of 1953 and the subsequent toppling of the legal government of the day, opposition to the Islamic revolution, transformation of an Embassy into a headquarters supporting the activities of those opposing the Islamic Republic (many thousands of pages of documents corroborate this claim), support for Saddam in the war waged against Iran, the shooting down of the Iranian passenger plane, freezing the assets of the Iranian nation, increasing threats, anger and displeasure vis-à-vis the scientific and nuclear progress of the Iranian nation (just when all Iranians are jubilant and celebrating their country's progress), and many other grievances that I will not refer to in this letter.

Mr. President, September Eleven was a horrendous incident. The killing of innocents is deplorable and appalling in any part of the world. Our government immediately declared its disgust with the perpetrators and offered its condolences to the bereaved and expressed its sympathies.

All governments have a duty to protect the lives, property and good standing of their citizens. Reportedly your government employs extensive security, protection and intelligence systems - and even hunts its opponents abroad. September eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services - or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren't those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial? All governments have a duty to provide security and peace of mind for their citizens. For some years now, the people of your country and neighbors of world trouble spots do not have peace of mind. After 9.11, instead of healing and tending to the emotional wounds of the survivors and the American people -- who had been immensely traumatized by the attacks -- some Western media only intensified the climate of fear and insecurity - some constantly talked about the possibility of new terror attacks and kept the people in fear. Is that service to the American people? Is it possible to calculate the damages incurred from fear and panic? American citizens lived in constant fear of fresh attacks that could come at any moment and in any place. They felt insecure in the streets, in their place of work and at home. Who would be happy with this situation? Why was the media, instead of conveying a feeling of security and providing peace of mind, giving rise to a feeling of insecurity? Some believe that the hype paved the way -- and was the justification --for an attack on Afghanistan. Again I need to refer to the role of media.

In media charters, correct dissemination of information and honest reporting of a story are established tenets. I express my deep regret about the disregard shown by certain Western media for these principles. The main pretext for an attack on Iraq was the existence of WMDs. This was repeated incessantly -- for the public to finally believe -- and the ground set for an attack on Iraq.

Will the truth not be lost in a contrived and deceptive climate? Again, if the truth is allowed to be lost, how can that be reconciled with the earlier mentioned values? Is the truth known to the Almighty lost as well?

Mr. President, In countries around the world, citizens provide for the expenses of governments so that their governments in turn are able to serve them.

The question here is "what has the hundreds of billions of dollars, spent every year to pay for the Iraqi campaign, produced for the citizens?" As Your Excellency is aware, in some states of your country, people are living in poverty. Many thousands are homeless and unemployment is a huge problem. Of course these problems exist - to a larger or lesser extent -- in other countries as well. With these conditions in mind, can the gargantuan expenses of the campaign - paid from the public treasury - be explained and be consistent with the aforementioned principles? What has been said, are some of the grievances of the people around the world, in our region and in your country. But my main contention - which I am hoping you will agree to some of it - is: Those in power have a specific time in office and do not rule indefinitely, but their names will be recorded in history and will be constantly judged in the immediate and distant futures.

The people will scrutinize our presidencies.

Did we mange to bring peace, security and prosperity for the people or insecurity and unemployment? Did we intend to establish justice or just supported especial interest groups, and by forcing many people to live in poverty and hardship, made a few people rich and powerful -- thus trading the approval of the people and the Almighty with theirs'? Did we defend the rights of the underprivileged or ignore them? Did we defend the rights of all people around the world or imposed wars on them, interfered illegally in their affairs, established hellish prisons and incarcerated some of them? Did we bring the world peace and security or raised the specter of intimidation and threats? Did we tell the truth to our nation and others around the world or presented an inverted version of it? Were we on the side of people or the occupiers and oppressors? Did our administrations set out to promote rational behavior, logic, ethics, peace, fulfilling obligations, justice, service to the people, prosperity, progress and respect for human dignity or the force of guns, intimidation, insecurity, disregard for the people, delaying the progress and excellence of other nations, and trample on people's rights? And finally, they will judge us on whether we remained true to our oath of office - to serve the people, which is our main task, and the traditions of the prophets -- or not? Mr. President, How much longer can the world tolerate this situation? Where will this trend lead the world to? How long must the people of the world pay for the incorrect decisions of some rulers? How much longer will the specter of insecurity - raised from the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction -- hunt the people of the world? How much longer will the blood of the innocent men, women and children be spilled on the streets, and people's houses destroyed over their heads? Are you pleased with the current condition of the world? Do you think present policies can continue? If billions of dollars spent on security, military campaigns and troop movement were instead spent on investment and assistance for poor countries, promotion of health, combating different diseases, education and improvement of mental and physical fitness, assistance to the victims of natural disasters, creation of employment opportunities and production, development projects and poverty alleviation, establishment of peace, mediation between disputing states, and extinguishing the flames of racial, ethnic and other conflicts, were would the world be today? Would not your government and people be justifiably proud? Would not your administration's political and economic standing have been stronger? And I am most sorry to say, would there have been an ever increasing global hatred of the American government? Mr. President, it is not my intention to distress anyone.

If Prophet Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph, or Jesus Christ (PBUH) were with us today, how would they have judged such behavior? Will we be given a role to play in the promised world, where justice will become universal and Jesus Christ (PBUH) will be present? Will they even accept us? My basic question is this: Is there no better way to interact with the rest of the world? Today there are hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Muslims and millions of people who follow the teachings of Moses (PBUH). All divine religions share and respect one word and that is "monotheism" or belief in a single God and no other in the world.

The Holy Koran stresses this common word and calls on all followers of divine religions and says: [3.64] Say: O followers of the Book! Come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims. (The Family of Imran)

Mr. President, According to divine verses, we have all been called upon to worship one God and follow the teachings of divine Prophets.

"To worship a God which is above all powers in the world and can do all He pleases." "The Lord which knows that which is hidden and visible, the past and the future, knows what goes on in the Hearts of His servants and records their deeds." "The Lord who is the possessor of the heavens and the earth and all universe is His court" "planning for the universe is done by His hands, and gives His servants the glad tidings of mercy and forgiveness of sins" "He is the companion of the oppressed and the enemy of oppressors" "He is the Compassionate, the Merciful" "He is the recourse of the faithful and guides them towards the light from darkness" "He is witness to the actions of His servants" "He calls on servants to be faithful and do good deeds, and asks them to stay on the path of righteousness and remain steadfast" "Calls on servants to heed His prophets and He is a witness to their deeds" "A bad ending belongs only to those who have chosen the life of this world and disobey Him and oppress His servants" and "A good end and eternal paradise belong to those servants who fear His majesty and do not follow their lascivious selves." We believe a return to the teachings of the divine prophets is the only road leading to salvation. I have been told that Your Excellency follows the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) and believes in the divine promise of the rule of the righteous on Earth.

We also believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was one of the great prophets of the Almighty. He has been repeatedly praised in the Koran. Jesus (PBUH) has been quoted in Koran as well: [19.36] And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. Marium Service to and obedience of the Almighty is the credo of all divine messengers.

The God of all people in Europe, Asia, Africa, America, the Pacific and the rest of the world is one. He is the Almighty who wants to guide and give dignity to all His servants. He has given greatness to Humans.

We again read in the Holy Book: "The Almighty God sent His prophets with miracles and clear signs to guide the people and show them divine signs and purify them from sins and pollutions. And He sent the Book and the balance so that the people display justice and avoid the rebellious".

All of the above verses can be seen, one way or the other, in the Good Book as well.

Divine prophets have promised: The day will come when all humans will congregate before the court of the Almighty, so that their deeds are examined. The good will be directed towards Haven and evildoers will meet divine retribution. I trust both of us believe in such a day, but it will not be easy to calculate the actions of rulers, because we must be answerable to our nations and all others whose lives have been directly or indirectly affected by our actions.

All prophets, speak of peace and tranquility for man -- based on monotheism, justice and respect for human dignity.

Do you not think that if all of us come to believe in and abide by these principles, that is, monotheism, worship of God, justice, respect for the dignity of man, belief in the Last Day, we can overcome the present problems of the world -- that are the result of disobedience to the Almighty and the teachings of prophets - and improve our performance? Do you not think that belief in these principles promotes and guarantees peace, friendship and justice? Do you not think that the aforementioned written or unwritten principles are universally respected? Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of prophets, to monotheism and justice, to preserve human dignity and obedience to the Almighty and His prophets?

Mr. President, History tells us that repressive and cruel governments do not survive. God has entrusted the fate of men to them. The Almighty has not left the universe and humanity to their own devices.

Many things have happened contrary to the wishes and plans of governments. These tell us that there is a higher power at work and all events are determined by Him.

Can one deny the signs of change in the world today? Is the situation of the world today comparable to that of ten years ago? Changes happen fast and come at a furious pace.

The people of the world are not happy with the status quo and pay little heed to the promises and comments made by a number of influential world leaders. Many people around the world feel insecure and oppose the spreading of insecurity and war and do not approve of and accept dubious policies.

The people are protesting the increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots and the rich and poor countries.

The people are disgusted with increasing corruption.

The people of many countries are angry about the attacks on their cultural foundations and the disintegration of families. They are equally dismayed with the fading of care and compassion. The people of the world have no faith in international organizations, because their rights are not advocated by these organizations.

Liberalism and Western style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of humanity. Today these two concepts have failed. Those with insight can already hear the sounds of the shattering and fall of the ideology and thoughts of the Liberal democratic systems.

We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point -- that is the Almighty God. Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: "Do you not want to join them?" Mr. President, Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

Vasalam Ala Man Ataba'al hoda Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad President of the Islamic Republic of Iran "

T.M.,

Whoever wrote that makes a very simple point.

Bush & Co. does not represent me,

nor should he present himself as a Christian.

Jesus was not a Christian.

I would say, follow the teachings if they feel like Truth.

They do so for me. Chow!

Hello Everyone,

Taomaster,

First, The President of the Islamic Republic of Iran as stated numerous times the "the State of Israel should be wiped of the face of the earth," of course, with "Allahs' Blessing."

Literally, the Leader of one Nation calling for the complete destruction of another with the help of his interpretation of a GOD. This is, simply put, unGodly, and he should say a ton more prayers to save his "not so nice" soul.

So, as much as I would love to read his "very long winded dissertation" on "his" take on the problems of the World, I think I will pass until this "so-called leader comes out and recants these hateful statements in front of all the World.

You know, this man, is no bigger than a peanut, maybe that is why he is using his position in the World as a bullhorn of hate, he is "feeling" small and there is nothing like shouting out a big fat hate to make you feel "big."

(We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point -- that is the Almighty God. Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: "Do you not want to join them?" Mr. President, Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

Vasalam Ala Man Ataba'al hoda Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad President of the Islamic Repbulic of Iran)

Actually, Toamaster that is not true, The World is gravitating towards the Rule of Law, because if man is to survive on this planet it will be the rule of Law that will win the day.peace ruth

Hello Again

Toamaster,

Just so you know, I didn't read the article, but the last paragraph caught my eye so that is why I copied it and responded. If I may,

"Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: "Do you not want to join them?"

If Hezbollah and Hamas and his own ranting about the complete destruction of another Nation, is any example of the above, the answer to his question above would be NO.

And I seriously think most people in the World would choose the RULE OF LAW.peace ruth

Ruth: As I predicted. You are too egocentric to risk exposure to the Truth. The article never mentions either of Hamas or Hizbullah. Once again, armed with tunnel vision, you fail to see the big picture.

Also, the Iranian leader has never called for the complete destruction of another nation. He is misquoted. He has said he wanted Israel wiped from the map. He is talking about a map. He is questioning the ligitimacy of Israel as a territorial sovereinty. He is not calling for mass murder. That is un - Islamic.

Israel was never on any extant or relevant map prior to 1947.

I always feel that Israel was really a place in people's minds. An ideal and an idea rather than literally a measured quadrant of land. But I am not a materialist.

Yeah Ruth..with Allah's Blessings Israel will be wiped out. All the Khafirs will be wiped out, they tried a small hand at the Heathrow airport, am sure you must have read that. Who were they Ruth?? St.Joseph or St John...Noble people? Without a second thought, I'm sure most wud know what their names wud sound like.

I'm glad actually, the leaders are no more listening to the words. The stage of words has gone by. If you trust them on words, you won't get another chance. RULE OF LAW! That is what most if not all are interested in and believe in here. What do you think Dear Deepak keeps talking abt? From religion to spirituality or just good sense. No more dogmas bigotry. It's very nice thing..that it is talked here, but the ground reality is far far away from it. In the Evolution someday, that dream will come true...but nowhere nowhere in the near future!!! It will take at least a couple of decades, going by the present state of collective consciousness of the world is, or maybe a century. Human Psyche! They wake up only when Disasters strike them. Then after a while, they close their eyes again. Again a Disaster, they will open their eyes and mouth. Another one and they will add their ears to it. That's how most humans are wired. When the water reaches their noses...they react, until then just let go and let go.

There are very few developed countries where law&order is very good relatively...not on absolute terms. On absolute terms...every country is not just flawed but Mighty Flawed!!! Why? Wiring in the head is Flawed. Anyway...the point is in developing countries like India, Pakistan and most other...law is easy to break. Thousands of them murder rape in daylight and escape!! That's the world here...it's not difficult. Law&Order?? Chuckle!! Oh God! How it's my wish to see one day where the world really has law and order! Look what Mr Kofi and the UN cud do abt all these wars? Talks!! More talks! More drafting! Some more Drafting! While the killing goes on and on. Then again a new round, maybe more Drafting! Jesus Christ! Where are you?? Do you see the world today isn't much different from the one when you left!!!

If one wanted to see the whole picture, this is what it is. On a starry night, go outdoors, and look up at the sky. See all those dead planets out there? Earth, is next. Earth, is the last thriving planet in our whole solar system!!

The people on earth, have a "choice" to make!

Learn to live together in harmony and share this earthly planet.

Learn to continue to make weapons of mass destructions which will make us the last dead planet...

Two learning paths.... so simple to decide!!

Yet, we are still where the billions of people, unable to stop the warring; will die for and with, the few minority whom want wars...until at last, we are the last planet to join the dead ones floating in space.

Look up at the sky.. and there is our possible destiny.

Look into your hearts... that is the only place, true peace can reside. How do we bring out our peace, when we debate... hate?

May the peace, love and goodness's of mankind; rise to the unity of peace, for the sake of our existance as a last, thriving, living planet in the solar system....

That, is the big picture. All the wars in between the past, the present.. lead to this big picture.

WE are the collective painters... paint for peace!!

North

Toastmaster!! Good Morning!

I read it...I'm not surprised you believe it, with your hatred for the US and Israel.

He's talking about a map? Just a piece of paper? He literally just wants an eraser, to remove Isreals boundaries? Awww...he's so schweet!!

Actually, I suppose my analogy might have been flawed...of course I would call the cops first.,, but what if they laughed at me? What if they didnt' show up? Israel called the cops. The UN had resolutions on the books, that called for the disarming of Hezbollah.... but in Israels case....the cops talked...but didn't show up....so....they are blowing up the neighbors house.....sorry if that makes me an undesirable quantity....I don't have a problem with it....

Forest Gump...stupid?? I love it when you enlightened intellectuals show up!! Forest Gump loved his buddy enough to risk his life for him. Forest Gump married a beautiful girl. He had a very intelligent little guy to raise. He had more money than God!! Sounds stupid to me. "My mama says, 'stupid is as stupid does'"!!

Hope you have a great day!!

norm

I were a Eucharistic Minister at a Catholic Church the past 10 years.. having been born and raised Roman Catholic. As I face imminent early death, from my diseases; I have dropped my beleiver systems in every sense.... now, I walk on my own two legs, with my own two eyes to lead me, and my own spirit, to guide me.

As a human race, we are so tangled in the words of other men; that we abide by them, thousands of years later, when proven they are all fraudulent in interpretation of facts, and abusively used..politicially.

As a human race, we must disrobe our hatred, our anger of past trespass's... and begin anew.

War is no longer, nor has it ever been; the way to resolve of greivance.

Our existance as the last living planet, will depend on human beings maturity, to choose well... our decisions to end warring; to find ways to co-exist...

or else, doom is the only end-solution, to a very temporary problem... hate CAN be eliminated!

But, I cannot let my thoughts drift into the void of religions and beliefs of other human beings.. I must follow my own sense of right, from wrong; and in lieu, beg the Lord of Hosts-God, to intervene, and save us from ourselve's.

Are human beings, an infestation of earth?

All we do, is kill and destroy, take and accumulate, rape, pillage...

I am ashamed for us.

North

I am in total agreement North.

As Gandhi said, "There is no way to peace, peace is the way."

Mary

To make one thing obvious.. being as Allah did not visualize, and give a verbal blessing, to obliterate a race of human beings from Allah's earth.... and considering these people being wiped out, still and always will exist.. I would then have to logically accept the fact.. Allah does NOT give blessings of this kind...

North

good morning, Mary....

Well, its afternoon here in Ireland.

Lots of commotion about the terror threat and disruption at heathrow in UK. I guess the war on terror is not working.

Best wishes

Mary

mid morning here, Mary!!

Here too, blazing across my screen on the tele....

Makes one wish, we were living on the moon... at least there is no war there(yet.)

Top o' the mornin' to ya!

North

Good Morning Toamaster,

You call me egocentric! I have to say you got nerve. Okay, maybe, just a little bit. How bout you? Any egocentricity on your part?

"Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. So, would you say that men and organizations who tout "with Allah's Blessing" for all their aggressive behaviour be an example of how people are going to conquer their difficulties, such as in the case of Hezbollah and Hamas, I mean they never hesitate to tout their faith in God. That is why I mentioned Hezbollah and Hamas are they the prime examples of this use of God and the prophets to conquer their problems? If so, God's reputation is getting a real bad rap.peace ruth

Yes Norm, you heard it rt. Just wants to wipe out the map with an eraser...not mass murder. Oh no way!! He'll chweetly ask all the Israelis to move out of the land first and then wipe out the map. How cud he commit a sin like that of genocide of Israelis?? Allah doesn't allow that.

What were the names of the ones who tried to plot? Was it a terrorist activity or some Red cross charity affair? Oh! I forgot some of our dear western friends too think Hamas Hezbollah Lashkar e taiba Jaise e mohammed are Noble Organizations like Redcross, who don't believe in bloodshed. Maybe we shudn't say such things, maybe we shud turn a blind eye to them, and just call them noble organizations who never believe in terrorising by sending rockets thru' the civilian camps. Maybe we shud allow them whatever they want, maybe we shud forgive them even if it means they wipe out other races. Allah will send all of them to heaven, and ALL the westerners to hell becoz you've not followed Allah's words. no? Start following Allah and he will be kind and merciful to you and then will change His mind to send you to heaven. But if at all, you dare to say She to Allah....then it's an insult to the male ego and again Allah will change HIS mind and send you to hell. You still have time to make up, but HAVE to follow HIS words, or else you're damned!

Good morning Steve and Others,
I was actually pointing out (through the analysis by that sociologist) that both the Iraq war and the invasion of Lebanon are causing more hatred for America and Israel. This is my conclusion. These wars have not intimidated our enemies and have not been a deterrent for terrorist attacks.

As Mary said from Ireland...I guess the war on terror is not working.
I don't pretend to have all the answers...but it is logical to think that what has not worked in the past, i.e. war, cannot possibly work in the future. And someone should explain to me what the plan to defeat terrorism is anyway. I trust it cannot be a global war against all Arab countries.
Peace for all,
Donatella

Hello Everyone,

Just caught the morning news about the terror plots.

For all of you if say this is an example of why the war on terror is not working, I tend to disagree. I admit that the use of "war on terror" is probably not the best rethoric, but that is not all that important. Dealing with terrorism and getting a firm hand on it's roots is, but you will never get to the roots if you are not around
"in existence" to do it.

Finallly, after watching this unfold, really, for the last six years, anyway, I think the Nations of the World are getting it together and are finally holding the men and organizations responsible. Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush are absolutely correct in pointing the finger at Hezbollah and not backing down. Yes, everyone is crying about all the pain and destruction that this RESPONSE is causing, but there is no alternative at this point in time. These organizations have to be disarmed, even, many Arab Nations and people know this to be true if there is to be peace in the future. The problem is there is No Arab Nation willing to do the job, which, I personally, have a huge problem with, since I feel they "fed this lion" they should be the ones to tame it, but, that aside, I am willing to, at least, support Israel in having to do their dirty work in order for peace to come.

I think we will have peace in the MidEast. And, I will go so far in saying I think, we, the World Community, will "win the war on terror." Hey, I do not mind eating crow if it were "not happen," but I think we are, finally, getting hip to the "smokescreen" these guys use and abuse to further their cause and I think we will uncover and disarm it.peace will come.ruth

There's none really Donatella! We're just trying
"Speak in French with a French, not English" appraoch. We think it's the best out of the worst lot, that's all. There's every possibility that this may turn out like an Iraq, but we don't see any other practical way to deal with these barbarians. That's all.

At the end of the day, each one is entitled to his/her opinion in this democratic world. Well, we like to believe we live in a democratic world even if the facts figures and ground reality shows something else.

Anyway, take care!

Ruth,

There is an old saying, "You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar".

There is an alternative to war. Let me give you an example. Over three decades, terrorists on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland killed thousands of people.

We now have peace.

Mary

Things are certainly coming to light now. I don't personally like Bush as a President, but at the same time he is here for a reason. I would not nor could not do what he is doing right now in this "war on terrorism". i tend to think he is also a terrorist fighting terrorist, but i just hope in the end our desire to make every country like America defeats other countries desires to wipe the earth clean of their enemies, wins out. Not that i personally want to create more U.S.A's.

Namaste~

They will Eat away your honey and Shoot you in the head and then go away! They are not flies, they are Lions! Don't do that dreadful mistake. If the solution was that easy, we wud have had it in the last decade, especially in the last 6yrs. Anyway..each one can come up with honey vinegar apple pie rose water rasogulla..all that. What language lion understands one has to know! Deepak was not a fool to call them lions.

P.S.

Deepak thanks for pointing us in the right direction. There isn't necessarily a final destination to arrive at, but if we can just move a little farther away from the need to use weapons, violence, and war to settle our disputes then i will be happy. At 24 years old i pray that my future (if i have one) wont be a continuation of my present!

There will always be a certain amount of violence taking place but hopefully it the method of doing battle will change from battle fields to political and commercial fields.

Namaste~

The key word Mary is that it took "decades" to have peace.

Over 150 million Muslims applauded 9/11

Steve

At least Mary they caught the terrorists.

This is not a police action, but a war of ideologies.

Freedom versus Sharia Law for the world

Again at least 150 Muslims believe this and will be happy to die as martyrs

Steve

Harley and Others,
"Trying" is not good enough when it causes more civilian deaths than terrorist attacks and when, as a result, creates new terrorists every minute.

What we haven't seriously tried -- because there are too many economic interests in the way -- is peace and the will to understand our "interlocutor's" philosophy and needs.
Who knows, it might work.
Peace,
Donatella
P.S. Andaleeb, thank God you are fine.

Hello Everyone,

Just out of curiosity, everyone- who keeps shouting peace, peace, peace and do not kill innocent people, it is wrong, stop the bloodshed and so forth. I mean everyone wants and end to bloodshed and wants peace, well, not everyone, I mean lets face it peace is really a detriment to the cause of Hezbollah and Hamas, what do they have to gain by making peace with Israel? If they make peace with Israel than that means Israel will be still in existence and from what they have been touting and shouting about for the last (how many years?) that is what they DO NOT WANT.

What would you do in this situation, how would you handle it? Put yourself in the seat of the Israeli Prime Minister, what would you do? How would you handle the threats to our Nation? Remember honesty is the best policy. Anyone?
peace ruth

Steve,

There was terrorism for decades, it took only a few years to make peace.

And they didnt catch the terrorists, in fact they released 100's of them from prison.

Mary

Ruth,

The Palestinian people live in pretty desparate conditions, mostly due to how they are treated by Israel. This is the reason for most of the terrorist acts throughout the world.

If Israel stopped treating these people so badly, and even gave a fraction of what it spends in defense, to build infrastructure, hospitals, schools etc, it would go a long way to securing real lasting peace.

Israel has a lot to offer the region. If the two work together there would be great prosperity.

Ireland has gone from being like a third world country fifty years ago to being one of the most prosperous countries in the world. We could not have done this without the links we have with the UK.

Cooperation will bring peace, security and prosperity to the region.

Regards

Mary

Donatella...You're quite rt there. I can offer much better solutions than those on paper. After all, we both are students of Deepak...we know all that.

What do you think I've been talking here at IB for months abt the human nautre and its dark side?? Why do you think I've been harping upon the manifestations of the dark side of human nature, which I learnt from Dear Deepak? Why??

BECOZ it Exists!!!! In glorified way in certain pockets. Absolutely, if there were no economic gains and all the other stuff...why wud the Americans be so crazy after them. It's all a Complex. Who is saying here...one group is full of Saints and the others are Sinners??

CONTRASTING philosophies of the two cultures!! Can't you see? It Glares! When two spiritual people like you and me have problems with differences..Imagine those with contrasting philosophies, what will they do to each other when their brothers and sisters are killed??

The high road solutions...I can fill this Intentblog with it. I can write books like Deepak, it's easy. You too can, you're very good at that peace stuff actually. It's easy!! This is the point, I'm repeating...you're not dealing with sensible humans here, you're dealing with Barbarians, the lions. They don't understand this language and more importantly they DON'T WANT TO, you can live in denial of that and they will keep killing you.

Take care!

Dear Deepak,

I have been reading your comments for a short time, in anticipation of your visit to Calgary, Alberta, Canada on the 30th of September. My boss bought me a ticket, as she knows that I wish to attend, and intended to purchase a ticket myself.

I must say that your views and comments resonate with me and are very close to my own.

Considering that we ARE all one, all this war, Middle East, UK, Korea, etc., seems so pointless, so disheartening. How can we fight so much with ourselves? Does that not make us masochists? Are we so out of tune with our inner selves that we must constantly kill off those parts of us that we dislike?

Can we not accept our "shortcomings" as part of us and learn to all get along as a unified part of the whole?

Why can't people see the big picture? I once told someone my interpretation of "The Pistis Sophia". We were studying that and the "Trimorphic Protennoia" at the time. My views on it were that we are ALL Sophia. I was told I hit the nail on the head, and that no one else in our group saw that.

The truth, to me, is that we come here and play out our "Game" to see what it is like to "be" in our creations, to experience it first hand.

Correct me if I am wrong. By the way, I have enjoyed most of the posts here by all of you. On the whole, you seem like very knowledgeable people, and I hope that all of you are blessed with the greatest achievements that you are capable of.

Rev_Annie

For the benefit of Mary based on her allegations that the Palestinians are treated so poorly by Israel and as a result the main reason for most of the terrorist acts around the world, I'm guessing :Indonesia,Bali,London,Spain,India,Morocco,Russia,Philippines,US, Egypt,Jordan,Kenya,Somalia,Darfur Sudan, etc

The Palestinian economy from Wiki:

Economic output in the Gaza Strip declined by about one-third between 1992 and 1996. This downturn has been variously attributed to corruption and mismanagement by Yassir Arafat and to Israeli closure policies—the imposition of generalized border closures which disrupted previously established labor and commodity market relationships between Israel and the Strip. The most serious negative social effect of this downturn was the emergence of high unemployment.

Israel's use of comprehensive closures decreased during the next few years and, in 1998, Israel implemented new policies to reduce the impact of closures and other security procedures on the movement of Palestinian goods and labor into Israel. These changes fueled an almost three-year-long economic recovery in the Gaza Strip. Recovery ended with the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in the last quarter of 2000. The al-Aqsa Intifada triggered tight IDF closures of the border with Israel as well as frequent curbs on traffic in Palestinian self-rule areas, severely disrupting trade and labor movements. In 2001, and even more severely in early 2002, internal turmoil and Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas resulted in the destruction of capital plant and administrative structure, widespread business closures, and a sharp drop in GDP. Another major factor has been the decline of income earned due to reduction in the number of Gazans permitted entry to work in Israel. After the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, Israel again resumed the flow of a limited number of workers into Israel but has stated its intention to reduce or end such permits due to the victory of Hamas in the 2006 parliamentary elections.

During the time of Israeli settler presence in the Gaza Strip, settlers built greenhouses and experimented with new forms of agriculture. These greenhouses also provided employment for many hundred Gazan Palestinians. When Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in the Summer of 2005, these greenhouses were bought by the World Bank and given to the Palestinian people to jump-start their economy. Most of these greenhouses are now utilized by Palestinian farmers, although there have been incidents of looting, rocket launching, and vandalism in a few locations.

According to the CIA World Factbook, GDP in 2001 declined 35% to a per capita income of $625 a year, and 60% of the population is now below the poverty line. Gaza Strip industries are generally small family businesses that produce textiles, soap, olive-wood carvings, and mother-of-pearl souvenirs; the Israelis have established some small-scale modern industries in an industrial center. Electricity is supplied by Israel. The main agricultural products are olives, citrus, vegetables, Halal beef, and dairy products. Primary exports are citrus and cut flowers, while primary imports are food, consumer goods, and construction materials. The main trade partners of the Gaza Strip are Israel, Egypt, and the West Bank.

Btw Mary, there are posters in both Gaza and Lebanon that says "Motherhood is sweet, but martyrdom is sweeter".

What do you think they value more, life,growth,freedom,family or death?

Steve

Hello Mary,

"The Palestinian people live in pretty desparate conditions, mostly due to how they are treated by Israel. This is the reason for most of the terrorist acts throughout the world."

I will not in any way make light of the suffering of the Palestinian people. They have suffered. I will, although, make a distinction on to the causes of that suffering.

Israel is certainly the cause of some suffering, we will say a lot.

The biggest cause of the conditions and the sufferings of the Palestinian people are the leaders they choose to support. These leaders, and they go way back, have chosen to invest billions of dollars in aid not to nurture their people but to invest in war, invest in militias. They have denied their people by the choice of their investments. Actually, I look at it this way the Palestinians have Leaders who are really addicted to a way of being that is detrimental to the health and well-being of their people. The people keep supporting them becuase the believe they will get something, anything, if they continue to fight, but as the whole World can see, they still have nothing. These leaders can at anytime put down their weapons and say "okay" Israel is here to stay, we will use our minds and our intellects to negotiate a fair resolution to our borders. We choose to live side by side with our Neighbor Israel. The Palestinians are really the victims of bad leadership, not unlike, bad parenting, sometimes parents are detrimental to their children's well being because of the emotional, intellectual, material investments they choose to invest in. They need leaders, now, who are not addicted to warring.

Israel needs a partner in Peace, who will it be? The Palestinians have voted for leaders that are taking them into battle, again. So, instead of getting the schools, the hospitals, the playgrounds they deserve, they are getting missiles, instead of building roads they are digging tunnels to move the missiles. I feel for the Palestinians but they need to open their eyes to their choices in Leadership..peace ruth

Hi Everyone!

Mary, yes it probably takes less time to achieve peace than terrorism, I believe, however most people seem to believe that it takes more energy.

Ruth, in regards to post 169: If I were that leader, I would try to change my thoughts from "The world owes me...", or "It is my right...", or "God gave me this land...", to "We are all here in love, and I want to help to establish a world nation, encompassing ALL human beings, not just those of my particular belief system, that would live in peace and harmony from this day forward".

But then again...I am not the leader of that Nation, just a part of the "Whole". Don't get me wrong, I am saying this about ANY Nation, not just Israel. Every Nation seems to think that they are entitled to something, whether it be land, oil, money, arms, whatever.

Prabhakar, I agree with you on the fact that we should be teaching this at a grass roots level. Our children are more apt to be able to change things than even we are, if they are taught from an early age, without all the hatred towards other cultures and misinformation thrown in.

Many children nowadays are very psychic and are born with many gifts such as those of healing. Taught to use these gifts properly, they can achieve there wildest dreams and maybe even world peace.

I believe that these children are called "Indigo Children and Crystal Children" in some circles. Whatever you call them, they are very gifted, and may just be one of our few hopes for a peaceful and loving future on this planet, if THEY can only teach US that we are all one.

I try to do my small part, as a Reiki Master/Teacher/Practitioner, to heal on a small scale. So much more needs to be done, though, and on a much larger scale, by many people, to heal the world and all on her. Gaia is telling us she needs healing too.

I offer my small part, and hope that others will offer theirs.

Namaste,

Rev_Annie

I do agree with Mary. I do not think that war on terrorisme is an answer to what is happening right now in this world.

In 1978 I came to boarding school in france. One of my fellow students was from Lebanon. When we got to drawing lessons all he knew to paint was arms and tanks. Most of his family got killed during the following years and he wanted to follow the path of "vendetta" on his turn. Some of us tried to talk him out of all this - but we were all too young and in the end we lost sight. I heard that he got killed a couple of years later.

What I remember of him was this need of vengence - something was taken from him and he wanted to do the same to someone else. It was a very strong feeling - overcoming every arguments we could advance against - but then again there were no adults helping.

To answer Steve question at that stage he was valuing pain and lost and didn't see any future.

I grew up with people that had lost all they had previously - so I can understand that feeling. But I've seen also something greater taking place. Bridges being built and understanding taking place. Only you need to have help from the outskirts - no need to cry out that everyone on each side is right or wrong (noone ever is). That all the bad ones are on one side of a border and all the good ones on the other. I don't think that the world is that simple. History is not that simple.

Look at what happend in the Middle east. Even if you go back to the Crusades - life was more complicated than Christians vs Muslims. Think about the kingdom of Sicily under Roger II.

Peace - and please include everyone in your prayers

Ida

Hi Ruth,

Yes I agree, the Palestinians have a lot of work to do in the area of leadership.

I watched a program the other day which tracked the lives of two teenage boys, one was in Israel, the other was in the West Bank.

It was remarkable how each boy was being taught in school to hate and fear the other side.

But I believe there are many people working to change this. Have you heard of The Israeli-Palestinian NGO forum which is a newly established alliance, composed of over 100 organizations working for peace and human rights in Israel and the Palestinian Authority?

I understand there is also a joint Israeli-Palestinian radio station www.allforpeace.org

In my books, that's real courage.

Cheers

Mary

Taomaster,
I just finished reading the letter by Vasalam Ala Man Ataba'al hoda Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad President of the Islamic Republic of Iran (that's a mouthful).
Yes, he definitely sounds more reasonable and infinitely more intelligent than G. W. Bush. He also doesn't sound like a blood-thirsty lion.
Thanks for posting it.
Peace,
Donatella

Donatella,

Still think Ahmadinejad sounds reasonable and intelligent?

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago [Israel] and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"The Zionist regime is a dried up and rotten tree which will be annihilated with one storm." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Israel cannot continue to exist in an atmosphere of peace and tranquillity without threats and aggression. If this regime stays on one inch of Palestine’s soil, it will continue its threats." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"There is no doubt that the new wave [of attacks] in Palestine will wipe off this stigma [Israel] from the face of the Islamic world...the World without Zionism." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"If some want to misuse the generosity of our nation, and re-examine what was previously examined, they should know the fire of the anger of the Iranian nation will be extremely burning and devastating." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world. The Islamic world will not let its historic enemy live in its heartland." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Hello Everyone,

Mary, Yes I have heard of the group and I think it is wonderful and can we have more, more, more, more!

Donatella,

Yes, he definitely sounds more reasonable and infinitely more intelligent than G. W. Bush. He also doesn't sound like a blood-thirsty lion.

Blood-thristy lions, stalk their prey, silently, intelligently before they make the kill!

peace ruth

Hello Everyone,

I can understand not liking President Bush. I have been one of his loudest critics, but, to even, listen to a man who preaches the complete destruction of a Nation and a People and call him reasonable and infinitely intelligent is just plain disappointing, discouraging, and astounding.

I scratch my head in wonder?ruth

Steve and Ruth,
As I have said before, Israel has the right to exist and even to defend itself. I cannot support the recent mindless military bombings over Lebanese territory. That, in my opinion, was unacceptable.

I never said that I support any statement implying that Israel does not have sovereignty over its territory. I have to say that the geography of its territory was not the happiest of choices. But as Ruth said, that choice was made long ago. It is too late now.

I simply stated that the writer of that letter made a good point in showing the accountability of the current American government for its decision to wage war against Iraq over false accusations. I also agree with him that some media has worked persistently to undermine a sense of safety in the American people -- often, and coincidentally, in pre-election times, I would add.

I confess I was not crazy about his pro-religion speech because it implied that people are righteous only when they practice one of the "divine religions".

All things considered, I think it's good to keep an open mind and at least listen to all sides with respect. I am sure you agree on this point.

Namaste,
Donatella

Ruth, Even I thought abt it. Abt the great openminded, no bigotry no dogma, no bloodshed Ahmedinejad. It was a Shocker!! Wasn't it?

Sachin, (or Harley if you prefer)
I simply said that he was "infinitely more intelligent" than Pres. Bush. Almost anyone is.
Peace

Hi Everyone!

I just thought that I would share something that I heard many years ago:

"Minds are like parachutes. They only function when open."

I aspire to open up my mind more and more all the time. Reading these comments on IB is helping me to do this.

I don't pretend to know even a small fraction of what is happening in every country on every continent. I just feel it's not something that promotes unity, when such hatred exists. I can only hope for a more unified future.

Love,

Rev_Annie

Beautifully said, Rev. Annie.
And welcome. Your voice here is refreshing and much needed.
Namaste,
Donatella

After reading what Steve got abt Ahmedinejad, it was Really Funny!! An Opiumhead is an Opiumhead! He's not bloodthirsty lion...that one too!! Yeah, not just Intelligent, but Infinitely Intelligent. So infinitely he is intelligent, really unbounded, like Allah. Thanks for the laugh!!LOL!!

Hey All,

Bush has his speeches written for him.

When he improvises, it is quite obvious.

I cringe with his writer when he does.

He embarreses himself and all U.S. citizens

who voted for him. I'm not one of them.

I imagine all high officials have access to

such professional writers, including Amhadi-Rejad.

I doubt that he wrote it.

I doubt that he believes it.

That's not why it was written.

We should trust him, why?

WE should be able to believe in our leaders.

All those who do, raise your hand...

HA! You are all like ME!

But I trust everyone at IB, just like you guys and gals do.

Right? We are so truthful here. Paste and post...

I'd rather hear what you think and feel.

I gave up on most media outlets after Shock and Awe!

"There are no problems, only solutions."

I echo John Lennon.

The merry-go-round will be stopping shortly.

Those who wish to, may get off and join me on the sidelines.

It's perfectly clear...everything is in order

and is going as planned. Right Richard?

Hi Keith,
I agree. His speech writers must live under constant stress (like his ambassadors) because they are left to the unfortunate task of justifying his careless remarks and his breech of etiquette.
I think if we don't listen to all sides in these uncertain times, we don't stand a chance of survival. More tolerance is a must.
Peace,
Donatella

Read that "breach".

Hello Everyone,

I was browsing through Open Thread for this week and this is what I found, it is supposed to be funny, maybe, I have lost my sense of humor, but I didn't laugh. This comes from someone who consistently criticises Israel, but claims he does not (extremely dislike Israel or Isralis)I am not using a stronger word here, purposely.

Since this thread has waxed humorous....

What happens if an insect falls in a cup of coffee?

The British: will throw the cup into the street and leave the
coffee shop for good.

The American: will get the insect out and drink the coffee.

The Chinese: will eat the insect and drink the coffee.

The Israeli will:
(1) Sell the coffee to the American and the insect to the
Chinese.
(2) Cry on all media channels that he feels insecure.

(3) Accuse the Palestinians, Hizb Allah, Syria and Iran of
using germ-weapons.

(4) Keep on crying about anti-semitism and violations of human
rights.

(5) Ask the Palestinian President to stop planting insects in
the cups of coffee.

(6) Re-occupy the West Bank, Gaza Strip.

(7) Demolish houses, confiscate lands, cut water and electrity
from Palestinian houses and randomly shoot Palestinians.

(8) Ask the United States for urgent military support and a loan
of eight billion dollars in order to buy a new cup of coffee.

(9) Ask the United Nations to punish the coffee-shop owner by
making him offer free coffee 'till the end of the century.

(10) Last but not least, accuse the whole world to be standing
still, not even sympathizing with the Israeli Nation.

I think he might be mistaken in how he REALLY feel about Israel and Israelis

peace ruth

Hello Everyone

We were discussing anti-semitisim earlier and I think the above example of humor is an example of an "accepted form of anti-semitism" that is pretty common in our World. Most people think what's the harm, it is no big deal. All I know is that I feel sad reading it.peace ruth

Dear Ruth,
I understand your enormous love for Israel. But anything short of making the Israeli cause a top priority does not appeal to you. We are all entitled to our views.
I thought it was funny, and yet I am hardly anti-Semitic.
A sense of humor can help these days. I try not to practice what I call "selective love" which may lead to an excess of patriotism -- the consequences of which we have seen in the Iraq war, in which 100 thousand Iraqis and over 2 thousand Americans died, according to European sources.
Please lets keep this forum free of bias.
Love,
Donatella

Let's also remember that we want peace, not just winning wars.

Jewish prayer for peace and Oneness

Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, that we may walk the paths

of the Most High. And we shall beat our swords into plough shares, and our

spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation -

neither shall they learn war any more. And none shall be afraid, for the

mouth of the Lord of Hosts has spoken.

Hello Donatella,

Actually, Donatella, If you put say, England, Jordan, Spain, China or any Country, for that matter, in the position that Israel is in I would be just as determined to defend their position and what I see as their rights in defending and protecting their position. It is not about Israel, so much as it is about the nature of the conflict. The right to defend and protect against an adversary that proclaims to extinguish your Nation and your people.

Yes, everyone it entitled to their own view, you find the joke funny and I find it sad.

peace ruth

Hello Donatella,

Sorry, but, you know, I just stepped away from the computer for awhile, visited with some friends and came back and reread the above joke and quess what? On second reading, it is still not funny, in fact, it definitely exposes the anti-semitisim of the author.

There is nothing funny about the above joke, period.

peace ruth

Dear Ruth,
I understand your feelings.
Maybe I laughed nervously at it beacuse I was considering the terrible ordeal that the Lebanese people are going through (like the Isreeli people and mayby more). The Lebanese have suffered for over 20 years.
Maybe that joke wasn't in good taste...but I think that poster is not anti-Semitic. I have read his posts and he seems like a balanced and correct person.
I apologize if anything I have said about this war in Lebanon has been hard for you. Like you, I know what it is like to love with my whole heart.
Peace,
Donatella

Yes Keith, everything as planned at some "higher" level. All is in Divine Order as always when the infinite play. Every change that happens tomorrow is also in divine order, and we need some.

Being that everything is not as it "could be".

Dear Ruth...He had clearly mentioned it was a joke, as it was preceded by lots of them. This is a very free open forum and it allows such things, or else Mallika wud have deleted by now. I read that, and it just felt like a joke...becoz I know how smart Israelis are, if at all it fitted someone it was for the other group.

I cud easily show how Israel is defending by destroying the terrorists camps, but wud be useless really here...as you know most here just blaze their perspecs, and this is the reason why I told you a while back "Ruth stick to your guns" meaning stick to your perspec and it's not worth to budge here. But Hey Ruth...don't take it too seriously, this is just a blog. All this talk isn't really going to change the ground reality there in middle east. Israelis with the support of US will do exactly as they feel what is rt, just as the bloggers here feel what is rt.

I resonate so much with you Ruth. Any other country, doesn't matter I wud feel the same.

Donatella...Was that funny too like the other one "Ahmedinejad not just Intelligent and reasonable but Infinitely Intelligent". I was laughing my way out even after 2hrs. Infinitely Intelligent Ahmedinejad and reasonable too!!!

Love!!

Hello Everyone,
Donatella,

I appreciate, very much, your kind overture to me.

I am sure this person is a wonderful man with a wonderful family and this is really not so much about him personally, it could be anyone of us. This person has been very vocal about his stance on Israel and a far as I can tell when it comes to Israel the criticism is heavy. There is nothing wrong with that, in and of itself, but then he posts the joke on the "joke" blog and his criticism takes a completely different turn. You then understand completely and without a doubt the "something" he denies he has, but, is, in fact, there for all to see. To me, it is only an example of a very common, but very subtle form of antisemitism that is the undercurrent I was referring to above. I do not want to harp on this but I think it is important to point out since we have been having a great discussion on this matter and I have truly enjoyed every minute of the interaction. Thanks again for your kindness..peace ruth

Harley, I know it was intended as a joke and that is fine, but it REALLY is not a funny joke. It is pretty transparent. Thanks for your support, I appreciate all your kind words.peace ruth

You're quite rt Ruth actually in your post. One can know the undercurrent thru' the humor many times. The anti semitism which was thrown onto you existed somewhere else, and you quite well pointed it out. Gosh! THIS is exactly abt you Dear Ruth, I was falling in love with you. You're not at all twisted or muddled in your head!! Just clear in ur vision, and you fearlessly express it, with a beautiful tender heart behind all that.

Don't take it too personally here on the blogs, becoz a lot of them just try to pull you down, without giving a damn to what you've to say. Focus more on the subject, content of the discussion.

Will love to talk to you sometime on someother thread. Take care.

Love!

Hi Ruth,

Stan is not noted for his sense of humor, I'll give the pacifist a pass!

Keep up the great work, I'm quite impressed with you Ruth,

Steve

Dear Ruth,
I understand that as a supporter of Israel these are difficult times for you. And I respect your feelings.
I don't like ethnic jokes...they normally hurt someone's feelings. The one above is also in dubious taste. But, although I resent anti-Semitism as much as anti-Islamic sentiment (or any other prejudice against peoples and cultures), I can understand where that joke originated from. Today the world is dismayed (like me) by "terror", extremism of all kinds, and plain uncertainty about the future. We are all in this together. There is no doubt about it.

We must take responsibility for our attractions and aversions. What to you seems like a justifiable response to terrorist attacks, to millions of people in the world seems like an irresponsible breach of another nation's sovereignty. Also some people worldwide still remember pictures of Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children armed with stones.

As I have said before, the killing of almost one thousand Lebanese people (most of which, as you know, were civilians) is bound to affect the public opinion worldwide. Now, you can call that anti-Semitism if you wish. But are you certain that you are seeing this matter from a wide perspective?

I wish for a peaceful resolution of all conflicts. Then I hope the world will forgive and forget who started those conflicts and who did what.
Enjoy your weekend.
Best wishes,
Donatella

Ahmedinejad...reasonable! Yeah. I'm anti fundy!! Clearcut!! Whether hindu muslim christian sikh, any!! Out of all, without a doubt Muslim fundys are the most dangerous!!!! My voice has always been on that, while acknowledging fundys in all the religions. Ahmed Dear is one of those, clear from what Steve brought out there! Such clear things are always dubious in dubious minds!!

Hello Everyone,

Thanks Steve, I didn't want to make the person the issue, and hope I didn't, but the subtle digs do contribute to somthing much bigger.

Donatella,

you write..As I have said before, the killing of almost one thousand Lebanese people (most of which, as you know, were civilians) is bound to affect the public opinion worldwide. Now, you can call that anti-Semitism if you wish. But are you certain that you are seeing this matter from a wide perspective?

I can, very clearly, understand the reaction of people around the World to the killing of the Lebanese people and I do not think that reaction is in any way attributed to anti-semitism. It is simply a reaction to people being killed, but what I am having an extememly difficult time with is the fact that the majority of people reacting to these killings are OVERLOOKING a very important CAUSE of these killings, and that is the very deliberate, pointed, calculated strategy of the Hezbollah militia. Like I said, they may be Israeli bombs, but the men, who are, in my opinion, TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY, RESPONSIBLE, FOR THE KILLING OF THE INNOCENT PEOPLE BELONG TO THE ORGANIZATION THAT INVITED THE ASSAULT AND THAT IS HEZBOLLAH . I think there is a great problem in perspective, here,and on the World table, and I do not think I am the one with the problem. I think my perspective is much more inclusive and frankly, more helpful in the future solving of this issue. The importance of this oversight in perspective can only be detrimenal to the resolution of the conflict.

If the World Community continues to ignore this very important aspect of this conflict then it can only continue because this organization is getting a get of "responsibility free" card for the killings they "joyously" invite and profit by, time and time again, with no gain whatsoever to the innocent people they claim to be fighting for.

As you can see they, Hezbollah, has not stopped firing one missile, they continue to invite more suffering on their supposed brothers and sisters. They are a total and complete sham and the World Community owes all their innocent victims the truth about the fact that they, Hezbollah, can never deliver on the promise of "driving the evil occupiers from the land." And most importantly they can NEVER, and, have a HUGE INVESTMENT, in this NEVER, deliver a Peace to them either. It is, too simply, the biggest, saddest, deadest line of bull ever sold to desperate hungry people. And to think young men and women give their lives for this NOTHING, it is just to sad for words.

At least, Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush and other leaders have this organization in their sights and will not back down. They will be disarmed, either by Israel or by others of the World Community. The World simply cannot afford the existence of these organizations anymore.

Have a great weekend..peace ruth

Hello again,

supposed to read..
"this organization is getting a get out of "responsibility free" card for the killings they "joyously" invite and profit"

ruth

Dear Ruth...As usual wonderful post from you! Can you answer a question for yourself, you will realize something....Why shud the world listen to your Perspec?

Dear Ruth,
I feel I know you somewhat because we have been in this interesting dialogue for some time.
I am not an activist. I have studied humanities my whole life. I have devoted the last ten years to the learning of yoga philosophy and Ayurveda. This premise is to show that I am hardly into politics, and I am even reluctant to call myself a pacifist. Boundaries of culture and credo are not for me. Also, the only Iranian people I know are my wonderful Baha'i friends who support world peace.

That said, I must admit that I keep informed on world issues and I am particularly interested in the well being of humanity at large. I have sympathy for Israel, but so, too, (forgive me) for Lebanon. As you know, the problems between these two countries did not start last July. Israel has invaded and occupied Lebanon for a couple of decades. I can't help thinking that people living in an occupied territory must not feel like happy campers. While I condemn terrorism of all colors, I understand why the Lebanese government and people are more inclined to sympathize with the terrorists than show approval for Israeli military tactics that kill hundreds of children.

I apologize to those who have been following this discussion for having to repeat myself, but at this point I wonder if there isn't a trial of intentions. Honestly, other than understanding your point of view, I am quite tired of having to justify myself and prove to you my lack of bias. The most common argument used by Israelis with anyone who disagrees with their country's aggressive military strategies and with their government is that is that the critics must be anti-Semitic. I find that this argument is getting tired.

My take is that Israel has chosen to take matters into its hands (causing death and devastation around). But then, please, don't be surprised when the world watches in shock. I am not into politics, but one needs not be a political analyst to see that one side--the Israeli-- never takes responsibility for its actions.

Good luck with your unilateral support of the Israeli cause. As for me, I prefer rooting for all people so they can "be happy and free", as the famous Buddhist invocation says.
Love,
Donatella

Hello Everyone!

Donatella, thank you for your kind words.

I watched a video last night, posted on another thread on this site. It made me cry, and opened my eyes wider than I have ever had them open. I speak not of my physical eyes, but the eyes of my spirit, my heart.

It does not matter which side made the video. What matters is the indiscriminant massacre that is going on on both sides. The senseless killing of many innocent people.

I pray that these people will all see that we are one, and stop this insanity.

I pray that the world reaches that critical mass that it needs to end the constant bickering and warring that endlessly takes place, whether we choose to ignore it, complacent and/or apathetic (you choose) when it comes to its outcome, fight it, and/or pray for the healing of all involved.

Many wonders are happening in this portion of the world, even in the small portion that I and those around me occupy. As dear Dr. Chopra has revealed in his "Seven Spiritual Laws of Success", we can change the world around us by changing our ways of going about things.

I have begun that journey and already "Miracles" are happening for me and those that surround me. I look forward to his talk on September 30th, here in Calgary. I only wish that even more people could see and hear what he has to say.

Namaste,

Rev_Annie

Yes, he definitely sounds more reasonable and infinitely more intelligent than G. W. Bush. He also doesn't sound like a blood-thirsty lion.
Thanks for posting it.
Peace,
Donatella

179. Posted by Donatella on August 10, 2006 11:25 AM

Donatella,

Still think Ahmadinejad sounds reasonable and intelligent?

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago [Israel] and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"The Zionist regime is a dried up and rotten tree which will be annihilated with one storm." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Israel cannot continue to exist in an atmosphere of peace and tranquillity without threats and aggression. If this regime stays on one inch of Palestine’s soil, it will continue its threats." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"There is no doubt that the new wave [of attacks] in Palestine will wipe off this stigma [Israel] from the face of the Islamic world...the World without Zionism." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"If some want to misuse the generosity of our nation, and re-examine what was previously examined, they should know the fire of the anger of the Iranian nation will be extremely burning and devastating." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world. The Islamic world will not let its historic enemy live in its heartland." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

180. Posted by Ambasteve on August 10, 2006 11:41 AM

IGNORANCE ABT THE MUSLIM FUNDYS...IF IT CAN BECOME CLEAR.

Hello Everyone,

Harley, Good question, Why should anyone listen to my perspective? Really, I do not expect them to, why should they? I am just another average, run of the mill, voice of the masses- adding my two cents. Usually, I wouldn't go this far into a discussion like this, but I was drawn by the events happening before our eyes.

I really am enjoying the discussion, though, getting to see how all these different minds work, and process information and come up with a perspective. It has been so eye-opening. Really, I am just taking my communication skills out of the closet and giving them a run through.

It has been a good exercise, Have a wonderful weekend Harley, and All..peace ruth

Oh No Dear Ruth...that is not what I was saying. I told you that, becoz...The World or to be precise the other party hardly ever listens to that perspec. Something which I warned you before that people come here and just blast off their perspec, without the ears being open to the opp perspec.

Ok...this is what I wanted to tell you since a long time. Listen...lot of people here get overwhelmed by writing skills of some powerful writers. Writing has got 101 components to it. To me....YOU'RE A WONDERFUL WRITER!!! Why? You may not be the best in spellings and grammar, the vocab and the syntax, but you Write from the heart!!! Your content! It reflects honesty compassion clarity. You're 100 times more beautiful, 100 times better writer than some who possess great skills in writing but mix it up and deceive thru' those skills. I've seen many!!

Also Dear Ruth...I don't mean to belittle someone when I present the real picture, like when I talked abt the Politicians and the people in powerful positions especially in the third world countries like the asian ones. It's a nexus of those people who exploit the masses, especially in the countries here.

There's so much of negative mindset here, that hardly the beauty is talked abt and appreciated. So much that, I've seen many times people do not even an idea of how beautiful they are. Like you, no I'm serious...I mean the Inside. I can still recollect some of your posts a few months back. I found this great quality in you of seeing things as they are...and just speaking it out so plainly. I always found your posts very clear.

Yes, I'm glad that it's been an exhilarating experience while discussing but also learning a lot abt the ground reality there, and all that u said in your last post. I know, so many times you've expressed the compassion for the killings, same with me...but who cares to see that? People intentionally don't see that! Something which you and me both talked abt it.

The Islamic Fascism is coming out in the open gradually Ruth. It will take some time before it becomes glaring.

You take care. Love!

Hi all
No one is going to be able to destroy Israel. She is much more powerful than any or all the arab countries put togther. Moreover Israel is supported by the most powerful country on the face of the earth. Should'nt it be self evident from what is happening now.
I do feel very stongly, however, that Israel is reaction to a capture of an army personnel is away out proportion. I think Taomaster has made a good point with respect to playing by the rules of the game. One cannot justify the kind of destruction they are causing now. Almost one quarter of the population displaced. Of course they have right to defent themselves. But that is no defence. That is an invasion of a country. What is going to happen? A few more countries will join Iran and will want to destroy Israel. Don't forget they can't do it anyway. They only talk. Ignore them.
That is my thinking for whatever it is worth.
Morris

Sachin-Harley,
Why are you "embedded"? Why do you use a pseudonym to say negative things and support all wars, and so-called anti-terror invasions of free countries? You are the one who always talks to Deepak about the dark side of humanity...but we must always start by studying ourselves.
Peace

Morris,
Good points.
Shalom, Salam, Paix, Pace, Shanti, Peace
Donatella

Morris, how do you defend urself from the T.O... Destroy those camps...the attack is primarily for that. But yes, most certainly we here agree that civilian death or even killing them intentionally is atrocious. We don't deny that!! Even one Innocent life wherever lost is always going to touch you. They have been doing onto Israel thru' suicide bombings for yrs, not to forget other countries. All along in this thread we've been saying war is not the best approach, but time has come where it is being used as a last resort. How long can anyone tolerate that nonsense of Islamic Fascism? For generations??

You've to be a moron to not know that I'm Sachin! I've been enjoying the Harley...ripper of hypocrisy and muddled heads.

Harley
I do not know how to defend from T.O. But I think we are doing it all over the world right now. Are'nt we? I also think, that this is not the way to do it unless Israel wants to occupy the country forever. If not, they can start all over again. There is no end to this.
Another way to do it, is to be fair and Just with palestanian people. Israel wish to negotiate peace with them but has already more or less determined the terms. They want to find a Palestanian leader who is willing to buy that. No wonder they are having difficuly. I am not suggesting that muslims are blameless. There is a lot of stupidity there too.
But a very important point is that if the powerful one appears unjust to the weak then the weak fight using unconventional weapons we call terrorism. I think it is a duty on the part of stronger power not only to be just to the weaker but all appears just. Perhaps we can create appearance without being just that would be a smart thing to do. But to remain openly unjust will be a hard sell.
Morris

Spot on Morris! With what you say there. Were you the one who said, when the weaker one realizes has no way to go, they resort to terrorism?? I don't remember who it was, but was a very good point. Why do they go for guerilla wars??

It's VERY DEEP ROOTED!! It's like the hindus and muslims here in our subcontinent. It's centuries old. Everytime anything happens, the old ones are brought out. Why do you think, I keep agreeing with Dear Deepak abt this?? This is simply human nature, to strike back...the reason why you can't dream of complete peace. No way! Fight&Survival are a part of human kingdom just like the animal kingdom. Don't ever forget we are biological beings, just evolved from them. Oh boy! We as a whole are light yrs ahead of reaching anywhere close to sainthood as a whole.

Short term solution....ceasefire. Stop. Peace for sometime. Again one rocket into Israel, a capture. Same story repeated. For sure, you can take my word on that. We, at IB have never advocated war as a preferable approach. Go and see my post, how many times I've mentioned Wars are Wars! So why this then?? Becoz a time comes, when u get Fed up!!!! Fed up with talks and negotiations, then it's used as a last resort.

Also just think for a while Morris hypotehtically. You're in a room and a hungry lion appears before you, and there's a gun by ur side. It comes near you. Will you try to explain it to the Lion...Plz be at Peace, let's negotiate...I'll give u some meat if u leave me now. Or will u with reluctance pick that gun, close ur eyes and just shoot it to save ur life. BE HONEST!!! You may find some answers there.

Harley
You must be joking. With this kind of thinking you seem to be suggesting an open war. Are you? And with who?
We came from animal. But I like to think that we have evolved to a level of some civility. I stand by what I have said. You have not discussed the issues I have raised
Morris

Hello Harley,

Thank you for the compliment on my writing, it is much appreciated, very generous of you.

I place much value on clairty of thought. I have struggled through the muddle of confusion a lot in my life. I have had to deal with some mighty well developed egos in my day and believe me they can dazzle you with their cleverness and wit until you are dizzy with confusion and you don't know whether you are coming or going. They have been my greatest lesson in appreciating clarity and honesty, you just can't go wrong when you decide to be as honest with yourself as you can possibly be.

"The Islamic Fascism is coming out in the open gradually Ruth. It will take some time before it becomes glaring."

I agree, I do not think people want to see it for what it is and therefore it keeps gaining momentum, but more are catching on day by day.
I hear there is an agreement at the UN. Now we will see what the Lebanese can do to govern themselves responsibly.

Harley, have a great weekend, may not have time to check in..peace ruth

- In Geneva, the U.N. Human Rights Council condemned Israel for "massive bombardment of Lebanese civilian populations" and other "systematic" human rights violations, and decided to send a commission of inquiry to investigate.

8/11/2006 15:02 EDT
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press

Dear Donatella,
I was at the park earlier, and watching the children play on the swings, and tears filled my eyes.

Earlier, while at the sandwich shop, I saw Time Magazine, and in one picture, a small child is wrapped in a clear plastic bag, a green leafed rose across its body. I felt tears sting my eyes, and felt the pain of a child, forever lost to a death, too soon, so unnecessary.

If only,
in the world scene ....
our eyes and hearts would stay open
to discuss,
to dialogue,
to reach out,
without the need to butcher and slaughter
Moms, Dads, children, grandparents, brothers, sisters.

If only ...
May it be soon.

With love,
~ Kate

Rule # 11:
If you don’t agree with these rules or if you favor the Arab side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.

Dear Kate,
I know. It's so sad to see children die. I try not to watch the news, but even reading about it is too much. Your words are always so soothing.
Much love,
Donatella

You give some people a yard of rope...

Norm; The police just arrived. The house is already blown up. The family and their neighbours are dead. No gun can be found at the scene and was probably destroyed in the explosion. Only one set of victims and only one crime.

THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS:

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11
Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14
Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15
Everyone has the right to a nationality.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16
Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17
Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21
Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23
Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27

Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29
Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

We have a long way to go.
Namaste'.

Hi Everybody, Ruth,
I think the discussion was overall very good and interesting. The subject is such that everybody must feel slightly edgy, myself included, but I enjoyed it nevertheless.
Dear Ruth,
Again, I apologize if any of my views on peace has hurt you or anyone else. You know I care about Israel too. And I care about the people here, no matter what their political ideas might be.
Peace is in everybody's best interest. I pray that this cease-fire will benefit EVERYONE INVOLVED.
Love,
Donatella

Did it make sense to try and destroy Hezbolla once and for all so we don’t have to go through the same thing again! Was it reasonable not to do any patchwork early? Have we not heard that song before? “We will hunt them down and kill them one by one if we have to”.

The guy and his associates who uttered these words have lost a bit of credibility. We are doing very little hunting these days in Iraq but a lot of trying to keep the Sunnis and Shiites from each other’s throats. We are also trying to protect our own ass. We know there is a civil war in Iraq and even Rumsfeld and his puppets acknowledge the “possibility”!

We know Mr Bush has a problem with reality. Maybe someone should show him, and anybody else who thinks we can catch or kill them all, the open mouth of a shark. If the beast should lose a tooth another one will stand up behind it. The supply is unlimited. Even if it loses a whole row, no problem, a whole new row will grow in no time!

There was an open window to get something done early in the Israeli - Lebanon dispute. There could have been a prisoner exchange tied to a Hezbolla pullback and a NATO force along the border. Well, they did not want any patchwork. They wanted to do the job right and after inflicting unbelievable hardship ended up on the same spot they were at the beginning. They did not want patchwork in Iraq either; they wanted to show the world “Shock and Awe”. Did they ever shock and awe the world on how wrong they can be and now have proven again how good they are at this.

There will be a cease-fire soon, hopefully. But lets get one thing straight, whether this happens within days, weeks, months or years, it will be patchwork.

Anybody who does not think so should look at those shark teeth again.

HI Skeptich,
I was about to go to sleep and I saw your post.
I agree with everything you said. When are we going to learn that killing does not solve the problems...
Peace,
Donatella

Morris...My post went above your head! This is the reason why I'm careful in discussions. Those who cannot follow all the posts in a thread, can be pointless. Answers to the questions were answered in my post, but it was too deep. U cudn't even answer a simple question. You're always absorbed in ur section of human population, that's y u think people all over the world are civil. You don't have a clue as to how people are in other countries. Wait and watch...you'll know in this lifetime how far one section of human population have evolved from animals. Just keep ur eyes&ears open, that's all...and u will see it. U have to be mad in ur head, to think We're fond of war all over!! Enjoy ur wknd!

Dear Ruth...I Loved reading ur post. EGO is the biggest stumbling block on the path of spirituality! Not just spirituality, but the world we live in...if u examine, this has to be one of the Monstrous problems mankind faces. It is lot of times a Cover for the Ignorance!! Those who cross that hurdle, don't have to worry abt using it as a shield anymore...that state is beautiful. I suggest reading htkg(how to know god) by Dr.Chopra, if u haven't. It talks so Wonderfully abt it. The Why of the misery of the world will unfold before ur eyes!

Thank God, I cud write to you in time. I think I shud have written that to you quite earlier. This is what I mean by basics. No need to know the complex things, be sound with the basics. Have to be clear with those. Can't afford to muddle. Honesty and Clarity will fetch u more friends and hearts! At least the like minded, not the twisters.

Yeah, for the time being they have got on an agreement of ceasefire. I Hope but I know is Just transient. You will see it soon. Why?? Human nature! Vengeance is INHERENT quality in humans! Most gloryfyingly seen in Muslim Fundys!! I'll throw away my books and all that I learnt from teachers like Dear Deepak and Dalai lama...if they don't hit back with Vengeance! CERTAIN!!!! Matter of time.

These problems are Very Deep Rooted Ruth, for it to be solved with this superficial work. They can be restrained for a while, but will again crop up.
I was talking to Donatella before in the thread saying...it's easy for me or her to write a book on high road solutions to these problems. That is where my actual field is...what I'm doing here is not really my cup of tea. But to show the dark side of the human psyche Is! How it causes the perpetual misery in humans! Only those who have known me for quite a while know, what I keep talking abt. High road solutions for those who have their consciousness on the high road. It's a Simple and a General principle of life Ruth. One man's food is another man's poison. What suits to one doesn't suit to the other. People don't even have this basic understanding. In Deepak's words "Each one acts as per their own Unique level of Awareness". We do know what is the level of Awareness in Fundys of all the religions all over the world! Don't we?

What do these Spiritual teachers teach? To solve anything...one has to reach the grassroot level, and act from there. Only then, can u find a good permanent solution. Otherwise, these patchy superficial ones will do the work for while then the same misery reemerges. Wait and Watch, you'll get a proof of these words soon.

Yeah...need a nice break. Have a good wknd Ruth.

Love!

Most of us have read Najed's letter. Now read what is written in Jerusalem post

"In his letter to US President George Bush last May, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad enunciated the coercive goal of jihad when he threatened the US with war unless Bush converts to Islam. Iran, which today leads the global jihad, has managed to make the language of jihad the lingua franca of the Muslim world."

-http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525851213&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I must admit regrettably that none of our guys here have not reached that level yet. I urge them to catch up fast.

Harley
Hey you are right. What you said went above my head. I would still say you did not discuss the issues I raised.
Weaker ones fight injustices in many different ways depending upon their cultural. Obviously, followers of Islam are not likely to use Gandhi's method. The fact that they are using violent method is no justification for being unjust to them to begin with. Try playing by the rules of the game and see what happens. Taomaster just posted the declaration of human rights, a very intersting reading.
If you choose to answer please be simple. It can go easily over my head.
Morris

Morris..I'll try to speak in the language which u understand better. The points u made earlier and now make lot of sense to me, hence I said Spot on! The stronger one ideally has to be Just and benevolent towards the weaker one. Ideally! But that is not so...in the world we live in. If the stronger one was just, we wudn't have been in this present state. A lot has been talked in the string of posts in this thread. Try again to catch some imp points which resonate with u of both the perspecs.

Unfortunately with the nukes coming into the picture Morris, it wud be foolish to think anyone is weak anymore on absolute terms. Rel...yes. Most certainly US alone can wipe out the entire earth...other countries are too small when compared to US. But, even the little ones, the so called little ones have attained the power now to Wipe out a country like US. It's another story that whoever touches US will be no more, but those small weak ones we are talking abt relatively have enuf power to annihilate the bigger ones. It's a Cardinal sin to understimate ur enemy in War game. Talking abt rules..Haven't u heard that one before Morris, Everything is fair in love and war! Why do they say? Becoz it justifies the means to get the end. That's how wars are fought.

I'm repeating this only for ur sake here. The people here at IB are very civilized, believe in non violence and peace by coexisting. You cannot PROJECT this same set of thoughts on people out there. That is the BLUNDER lot of them commit here. Their level of awareness is far different from the ones here or a lot in US who are against any war. They(Fundys) don't really understand the language of words and negotiation. All these things, I was trying to tell you from the perspec of Human nature. The conflict is complex and deep rooted...u will soon see how it emerges again. CERTAINTY!!!

The point with the survival I was talking, with the ex of the lion I chose for you. When it comes to Survial of human beings...we've the same Instinct as the animals..and that is fair enuf in such dangers. To save ourself, we will not hesitate to kill the other in such a dire situation. Is it really that dire for Israel? Is a valid question.

But when the other has Intentions of wiping out the country thru' nukes and clearly spelling it out..then one cannot really sit quiet and take it easy. Fear of getting destroyed exists in both camps...and that fear is valid becoz of the weapons each one does possess.

Harley I see where you are coming from. I was afraid of that. I sincerely hope that a lot of people at the IB have different perspective of the world. But may be not. No point in discussing what is right or worong. Might is right and survival of of fittest are the answers. Perhaps I am naive. So be it.
Morris

Dear Deepak...speaking of what's for sale...

I've just concluded a conversation with an instructor from the TM school in Gainsesville, FL. I was told that if I wanted to learn TM (which I do) the 4 day course costs $2,500.

Is this really what you are promoting? Did you realize how much it cost to learn TM? Are you so removed from someone like myself by wealth that you think such a cost is reasonable, or even acheivable, by the majority of the world's population?

I understand that marrying spirituality and health to consumerism and capitalism is a tricky business. I also understand that some believe that financial success is a part of spiritual success. However, as a graduate student in Music Therapy and an experienced meditator, I found myself thwarted by the TM price tag.

I'm deeply disappointed.

Lynn