mmmm. good topic. my thought is that our energy filters back into the great undefinable space of potential where anything is possible.

i need a good book. perhaps this shall be it for awhile?

goodnight all.

Dear Carolyn: Thanking for posting this news--I've been studying Deepak's material since......well, seems like since before this life even started!

I look forward to scouring this work more than any other piece Deepak has authored--Thanks to all of you who are so diligently engaged in "The Great Work," one way or another. Much Love--Dave

"Faith takes a back seat to rational proof in the book."

"At the Univ. of Virginia an ongoing program has located hundreds of children who remember past lives, including details about former lifetimes that can be factually verified."

"Also in physics, quantum field theory has led to experiments (at Princeton among other places) where ordinary people can change reality through intention alone--they can make a computer generate numbers, for example, in a certain pattern."

Dear Deepak,

If the book provides rational proof of life after death, I will read it at the first opportunity. Could you elaborate on what pattern the computer generated numbers formed, a bit more on this forum? Or is the detailed information about this available in the book?

Cheers!
Navin

Dr Chopra,

The burden of proof on the non-existence of life after death lies on the skeptics. In India death is euphemistically referred to as “Poora Hona”, which means “Becoming Complete”. So until you die, you aren’t a complete human being; it’s only when our soul merges with the Supreme Being—what Dr Brian Weiss’s patients describe as a Brilliant Light—that “life” comes a full circle.

It’s quite true that death is the fulfillment of our purpose here on earth. It echoes with what Sigmund Freud said: The goal of all life is death. Life is our chance here on earth to evolve our soul to such a level that we get out of this cycle of life-and-death. The fear of death is at the root of all our fears. The only way we can overcome death is by dissolving birth.

I once heard an Osho discourse on what happens after death. He said that the soul is confused for a while. You see your family members crying, and you wonder what’s happened to you! You feel sad too at having been separated from your body, because you have lost your body and now can’t be close to your loved ones. But it’s only a matter of minutes before the soul sees the futility of the attachment; it then moves on to search for another pregnant womb to enter.

In India, thousands of reincarnation stories are heard every year. The minute descriptions about people and places of a previous life that reincarnated people give are so accurate that scientifically the onus of proving life-after-death to be just spiritual hogwash would lie on the people who disbelieve it. There is a five-year-old kid in a remote village of Sri Lanka. He claims himself to be a reincarnation of President Premdasa, who was assassinated by the LTTE some years ago. That kid has never been outside his village, but he knows the geography of the Presidential palace like the palm of his hand!

Now the point is: why don’t all of us remember our previous lives? One common thread running through most of the reincarnation stories I have heard or read about is that the people involved had had tragic, unnatural deaths in their previous lives. I wonder if there is a hypnotic process by which we can be made to recall our previous lives!

Let me share another story with you. Daughter-in-law of a family my sister knew committed suicide. She was happily married and had no problems. One fine day, she just swung herself up from the ceiling fan. The family was distraught feeling immensely guilty. Someone suggested to them to meet a woman in New Delhi who could “help” them. The family was highly skeptical of this spiritual mumbo-jumbo but was somehow persuaded to have a meeting with the woman.

The woman, an educated one, was reputed to have powers to summon souls of dead people. She worked herself into a trance and soon the bereaved family heard their dead daughter-in-law’s voice through the woman’s lips! She was crying and said she was sorry to have caused them pain. Sounds incredible but this did happen. Also the woman did not charge the family anything!

There certainly seems more to life than meets the eye!

Thanks.

Sanjeev

Dear Carolyn,

thank you for posting this information, and a big THANK YOU to Deepak for this book. The world has indeed been waiting for it.

There is something Deepak said that I find particularly important:
"The ultimate purpose of life is to evolve, to discover who you are, and to shape your own future. After death we see much more clearly that all these goals can be attained."

What I find important for us all to realize is that we are capable of "dying" while we still use a physical body to express ourselves. We are capable of clearly realizing who we are and in what way we are attaining our goals. It is a matter of breaking the atachment to the illusion of physicality we are used to.

Deepak allows himself, as always, to be a tool of universal intelligence, and I am very grateful to him. His book comes now, because our collective awareness is ready to let go of a limiting belief. I am convinced that his book is going to be the slight push we collectively need to finally take this step.

Dear Deepak,

You know what is so good for me about reading your posts as well as all the comments from friends from all over the world? Because it makes me feel like I am not that crazy after all! ;-)

I am coming from the Netherlands but currently living in the UK, which for me seems a country with very limited spiritual inclination at the moment. Before going to the UK, I lived in Sri Lanka for 3 years, a country which I love and has nestled itself in my heart. I love Sri Lanka so much because living there has taught me so many things about myself.

One thing I immediately recognised when reading Deepak's answers about hell and heaven existing here and now was an experience I had when I lived in Sri Lanka.

One morning I was walking from my home to the office where I worked passing the same man that I used to pass every morning. This man is a homeless man, but he also seemed completely confused because of drugs or perhaps a mental disfunction. He was always very angry and used to shout randomly at people.

That morning when I passed him, I had an insight. I realised that he and I were only few centimeters away from each other. So basically we could see the same things from a material point of view. As I passed him and almost touched him, I realised that heaven and hell is really here and now. Its all in our minds, because eventhough we might be at almost the same spot at the same time, our perceptions and mind set can be totally different.

This seems a rather simple insight while I am writing it now, but it felt like a big insight at that point. Not only knowing it rationally, but really knowing and understanding it from inside..

And reading this post now, all of sudden brought me back again to that experience and made me smile. Because those insight-kind-of moments are for me what makes life so great!

Hope you all have a insightful day!

Hi everyone,

I recently watched a TV-program which was about a five-year old boy who claimed he had a past-life on the island of Barra, outside Scotland. It was fascinating because the boy was telling his mom things that were unusual for a five-year old to talk about. He was saying people shouldn’t be afraid of death because when we die we just fall into this hole and then we get to ‘come back’. He was also giving lots of details about the house he used to live in: planes were landing on the beach, he had a dog which was black and white, he lived in a white single storey house just by the beach, and his family name was Robinson. The program invited Dr Tucker, an American psychiatrist who’s done a lot of research into stories of reincarnation, to come and study this case. Dr Tucker interviewed the boy about all that could be said about his past-life and recorded all the details, and then they went to Barra to verify the facts.

Many things the boy had talked about turned out to be true. The airport on the island didn’t have an airstrip and all the planes had to land on a beach. There was a house on the island which fitted the description the boy had given and it had been inhabited by a Robinson family just around the period the boy seems to remember to have lived there (which was determined by the kind of telephone he remembers they used to have). The Robinson family used to have exactly the same type of dog that the boy remembers from his past life memory. It was also quite intriguing that the boy was so happy to come to the island and he kept telling his brother “I told you it was true!”. However, the boy found it a bit traumatising to enter the house that he believes to have lived in, he was visibly shaking. Although the house had been modernised, the boy claimed that he could still recognise it and the view from ‘his’ bedroom window seemed to be exactly like he had described it.

However, the disappointing part was that there were some things which didn’t match. For instance, the boy remembers that his father was called Shayne, but there was no one by that name in that Robinson family. So Dr Tucker’s final verdict was inconclusive since there were things that didn’t match, but he believes that it is possible that the boy mixed up memories from different past-lives. My guess is that most stories of children that can remember past-lives are like that - some details are amazingly verifiable but other things don’t seem to match which is probably why reincarnation is still not widely accepted in the West. It’s fascinating and mind-boggling that some things do match but it doesn’t really make sense if everything doesn’t match. Deepak Chopra has often talked about the idea that the mind is non-local – could it be that when remembering a past-life, we’re just tapping into someone else’s memories that are somehow stored in our collective consciousness? It’s going to be interesting to read Dr Chopra’s book to see if this mystery can be resolved.

If you’re interested in reincarnation I’ve found an article about Dr Tucker and his book which continues the research of Dr. Ian Stevenson (University of Virginia), who began studying children's past-life recollections 45 years ago. Apparently the book is full of fascinating stories that have been verified. The article can be found at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2006/06/12/findrelig.DTL

Take care,

I am also wondering about whether it matters if we do reincarnate or not. I suppose some spiritual traditions have used the idea to encourage people to strive to keep evolving spiritually all the way until death because our efforts won’t be lost and we will continue to evolve in the next life.

However, it doesn’t seem to me that the idea of reincarnation can really bring comfort to the ego, the part of us that fears death, since we will probably not remember our previous life and we will have a completely new identity. So in that sense, whatever happens, the ego dies. What each of us needs to do is to find a way of accepting the death of the ego – to enjoy each moment as much as we can and then accept that it will simply end one day. If we can’t accept it and we need to believe in things that could probably never be proven conclusively, then it means that we’re living in fear and we need to work on that. That sounds more constructive and wiser to me.

So although I am sure Deepak’s latest book is going to be a fascinating read – I think it could be good to ask ourselves why we really need proof of life after death and work on that.

Peace,

Dear Lars,

I personally feel that your question is a relevant question. I think if we believe in life-after-death so we can comfort ourselves in the idea of the 'I' going on, then ofcourse we might have to look into that in more depth. However, I think at this time, where people and societies seem to look at life in a very narrow way, which in my eyes leads to a lot of egocentric and short-term visions, it will be very useful to believe in life-after-death. At least being open to the possibility will challenge people to look at life beyond their own life: the Bigger Picture..

And on a more personal level: even if there would never be 100% proof for the existence of life-after-death, I would still choose to believe in that myself, as it somehow stimulates me to look at life from a much larger perspective. And even if 'I' will not enjoy a life after this life, it could be at least all of our (future) children that could enjoy a more open-minded and humane society..

Dear wietskemedema,

I agree with you when you write that if more people were to stay open to the possibility of life after death, maybe our world would be run more in the interests of future generations, which would be great. It would give people a greater sense of responsibility.

I also agree with you that if you’re going to choose to believe in something that would probably never be 100% proven, then reincarnation could be something good to believe in. Reincarnation has always appealed to me more than the idea of going to heaven or hell. I particularly like the sense of justice and fairness that the idea of reincarnate on seems to offer. For instance, Christianity can’t explain why a certain person is born with a disability while another is born perfectly healthy and with a ‘silver spoon’ in his or her mouth. With reincarnation all that is explained by karma and it give a sense of fairness.

However, I still find it difficult to totally embrace the idea of reincarnation, maybe it’s because it’s not part of the culture I was brought up with or maybe it’s because the evidence I have seen so far hasn’t been entirely satisfying. Maybe Deepak’s book will change that for me!

But like I was trying to say before, I think it’s good to stay open to all possibilities. It could be good thing to stay open to the possibility that there is no life after death, because if we can’t stay open to that or make our peace with that, then we’ll never be able to feel truly at peace with ourselves.

Take care,

Thanks for the press release and the Q&A.
Love,
Donatella

Dear Lars,

I think I am slowly getting what you meant (I hope).. I needed to think about that a bit.

I understand your point that we have to stay open to all possibilities: the possibility of life-after-death, the possibility of no-life-after-death, or perhaps the possibilities of something in between or something completely different. I guess you meant that even all those possibilities are created and limited by our own minds..

In the end what I hope it will be all about is that we evolve as beings and that we follow our paths of 'becoming more enlightened'.. And the more open-minded we are in that process, perhaps the better.

Thanks and take care too,

"Now the point is: why don’t all of us remember our previous lives?"
Posted by klumsyklutz.

Dear Sanjeev,
In meditation many people see glimpses of their past lives. I do not wish to share my experiences in this public forum -- for obvious reasons.

Even the individuals who envision the information received in altered states of consciousness in an archetypal light, notice that their lives are altered by the insights -- as deeper understanding of one's nature dawns.

I prefer to keep an open mind, like you.
Love,
Donatella

Congratulations Deepak, on the release of your newest book! Nice, bright cover.

I personally, am glad we do not remember all of our explicit past lives. Imagine carrying over any guilt, fear, and pain of every life into a new? Yikes...we'd all become insane!!

Also, we do have slight memory's of past lives, via deja vu, familiarity, recognition and preference in each new life.

I've always believed that in each new life, we recognise the same things we liked in our previous life. If they were corrupt things, here is our challenge to change them and improve ourselves; if they were good things, here is our challenge to teach and share, what we know.

North

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

These days I am contemplating our births and the fact that we arrive on the scene in complete and total nakedness. When I look at an infant, right after birth, I am amazed at our absolute helplessness upon our arrival, then, I think, that that is how we all face our death, no matter, how much we have read, how much we might "think" we know what we might expect, we will be naked. How much nakedness can one bear, consciously? Is our wanting to know really just a way to avoid the possibility of experiencing the truth of our absolute nakedness? Can we bear the infancy of our being consciously? just wondering?peace ruth

Sachin-Rehan,
I have clearly declared above that I do not wish to share personal experiences in this space.
For that, one needs implicit trust.
Thank you for your interest.

It has been my experience it is possible to die and keep the same body, and participate in the same reality.

My other published thoughts on the matter..

One can never experience their own death only the death of others.

I had searched for something to say to people who have lost someone, since words can't really do much to change the reality, and I came up with this it kind of helps me people tell me it has helped them....

I say that it is my thought, that when someone close to you dies, they are now closer to you then ever before because there is no longer any physical seperation, being there is no body which is the only thing that no longer exists, their soul essence still persists.

So if you want to know them, you must now look inside.

----------------------------

I have this story of a dilema that some may encounter and may relate to why it is not beneficial to remember one's past life.

This guy finds out his wife was his sister in his last life. SO he faces the dilema, should he divorce his wife/sister or continue commiting incest.
---------------------------------
Of course at the highest level perspective this is all mute, because I AM everyone that has ever existed.

~Richard Thomas

Of course come 11-11-06 there will be some revelations including a block buster direct experience experiment that will really shake some foundations and trigger a major expansion of awareness.

------------------------------
When my father died I was in the hospital room, we knew it would be soon, and I dozed off, I suddenly heard my father saying “I am free, I am free, he sounded so happy like a child, that was just when my aunt woke me and said that he had just stopped breathing. I could feel his happiness all around the room so much that I did not cry, I did not feel sad. I am still devastated inside by it all, that the way every thing. I shared that moment about hearing his voice at his funeral.

I would also mention that just after that I had a lucid dream, as aware as I am now, and I was with him, and I was checking things out realizing I was in a “dream” and I asked him where are we? We were in sort of a room and he said a transition facility. He looked like he did in his 30's like in perfect flawless health, but there was one odd difference, his eyes were like coal black like all pupil and no Iris.

I know death is very impactful, it is as transformative for us as it is for them.

"Now the point is: why don’t all of us remember our previous lives?"
Posted by klumsyklutz

Sachin,

My guess (and my belief)is that it is not neccessarily valuable to the progress of your soul to have these memories. Memory is a function of brain after all, and the brain is part of the body. I think what most people have are faint impressions of past lives; possibly some patterned responses, or left over karma from previous incarnations.

That's just my belief. It could be true or not true...however it feels true to me.

Peace,
Scott.

Sorry Sanjeev...last comment was for you.

Hi folks,
My posts are not usually too long. But since we're talking about death, I thought I would post an article that I wrote a couple of years ago. It was published in Futures Magazine and I read it aloud at my mothers funeral. It was in a column called Bridges, where two writers each take different viewpoints of a subject and this one happened to be personal dramas. Here it is:

The Final Drama
By
Scott Masterton

Our topic this issue is personal dramas; how they have effected us, how they have shaped the course of our lives. I was ready to write about my own dramas…the little things that I have turned into big things in the unconscious name of adding excitement to my life.

However, as I sit down to write the minutiae of my self-created delusions, my thoughts won’t leave my dying mother. She has fought valiantly against lymphoma. At times battling with the full force of a will hardened by the early death or her husband and the subsequent Herculean task of raising two small children on her own. Her will added to by the awesome, (though sometimes impersonal) force of western medical science. I realized that this drama was one of the few real ones that I have faced. A drama we will all inevitably be forced to confront. It presents itself in many disguises: Friend, foe, lover, brief acquaintance or often the most bitter of enemies. It is the root of all of our fears. The fear of death is simply the fear of loss: loss of friends, loss of family and most importantly the loss of our memories. Those tiny bits of information that make up the mass of our daily conversations whether they be with other people or the almost continuous dialogue within the quiet recesses of our own minds.

She is home now. Treatment no longer an option as the deterioration of her body has outraced modern medicines ability to keep ahead of it. During her first bout with the disease, I learned that cancer is treated primarily with a medical “shotgun”. The technologies essentially blast a metaphorical whole in the patient, taking the good cells along with the bad. The hope is that the good ones will rebuild themselves into a semblance of their original matrix, while the cancerous ones travel their own path to the other world. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. In my mother’s case the first treatments worked. The body of a woman still in her fifties was able to rebuild itself, and she enjoyed six good years. But at sixty-four, those cells are no longer able to rebuild. It is as if her body is resisting all attempts at treatment and despite the efforts of the doctors, the decision to put her into a home hospice program has been made. Fortunately, her husband has been at her side and despite all the difficulties involved in caring for a woman not able to perform the simplest of intimate body care, he wishes to keep her at home with him. We are taking turns caring for her, but to my stepfather falls the bulk of the burden; a cross he gladly carries as a testament to love.

Death is rarely seen in this country. We have hidden it away like some shameful secret. Our dying often drift away in a sterile hospital or group home where the face of death need not be seen by lay people. As Americans, we’d rather not be bothered with it…too painfully real. We should see it though. It is not shameful or scary or some kind of failure. Death is the end result of having lived. It is the face on the other side of births’ shiny coin. Life is a dream that flows seamlessly into another dream. As birth is the beginning of a journey, so too is death.

When they brought my mother home, she was confused and a little frightened. It soon passed and she was listening to the hospice workers as we gathered around her chair. It was hard for her to focus completely on the conversation. She seemed to drift out of this world, into the next and then back. Finally the talk was over and she lapsed into a gentle sleep. The nurse and social worker went into the kitchen with my mothers’ husband discussing medications: dosages, delivery systems and day-to-day tips that would help with her care.

She awoke then and touched my hand.

“It’s all coming together,” she said softly to me. “It’s all right here you know…it’s always been here.” She swept her large almost masculine hand around indicating her husband, my sister, my wife and me: her family. I smiled then, not knowing how to answer, thinking that the medications had confused her.

“What is it Ma?” I replied. “What has always been here?”

She frowned at me in the way that she always does when I’ve said something stupid.

“The tenderness.” She whispered. “You search and search for what you want in life, and it’s been here all along within each of you…within me.”

My eyes misted, but my heart smiled. I was wrong. Her sight was not clouded; she was seeing clearly, it was I who was not. And I realized that the dramas that we all engage in every day are nothing more than distractions from what is real. What is real is the love that is all around us at every moment reflected in the eyes of our family, our friends and even strangers on the street. Most of us…at least myself, are so busy with mounds of unimportant dramas, that we miss it. We miss it because we are not engaged in life. We are engaged in dramas and fantasies whose only purpose is to distract us from the now, that place where reality exists… where love exists.

I remember seeing a bumper sticker on the back of an old VW that read: “Don’t sweat the small stuff. And you know what? It’s all small stuff.” How right that bumper sticker was. Oh, I know the dramas will come and go, I will slip in and out of reality for the rest of my life, but I will know with a certainty that all that I have searched for has always been right here within each of you…within me.

God be with you on your journey mama.

Deepak possesses a faith-based brain that permits him to write about life after death. Faith based brains don’t have a need to be skeptical or show doubt. They don’t need proof for what they are writing. They are capable making things up as they go along.

Unfortunately this religious pretension is precisely what causes all the problems in today’s world. When a guy makes brilliant political observations, when he repeatedly complains about Bush and the Religious Right in America today and then writes a book titled “LIFE AFTER DEATH”, he is pretty, let’s say, self-serving.

You cannot have it both ways Dr Chopra! You can ban all of us from your blog, who think you are taking advantage of the gullible masses, but that does not make it right to pretend to know about life after death.

Nobody knows life after death, anybody who claims to know is pretending!

Remember this?
--Wisdom tradition will grow to embrace the great spiritual teachings at the heart of organized religion.
--Faith will no longer be seen as an irrational departure from reason and science.
--Aspects of the paranormal and miraculous will be widely credited.
--Prayer will be seen as real and efficacious.
--Manifestation of desires will be talked about as a real phenomenon.
A faith-based brain may even feel that remote cutlery bending is a reality that our culture is trying to deny us, or connect consciousness to quantum mechanics and critical mass.

I urge potential readers of Deepak’s newest excursion into the unknown to balance their interest and read “THE GOD DILUSION” by Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris’s “THE END OF FAITH”. Dawkins and Harris write with reason-based brains and you end up with knowledge not speculation, fact not fiction, and reason not pretension.

In my opinion, this forum is available for discussions on life after death -- and not for polemic with hidden agendas. There is no reason to turn this into an arena for the Who-Is-Who among grade-A meditators.

Dear Scott,
I happen to share your insight.

Dear Skeptisch,
We must remember that Deepak has based the views reflected by this book on scientific findings.
Love,
Donatella

Dear Scott,
I meant the insight in your #20

hi all! here are a few paragraphs from my book self designed universe on the subject of life after death if these may interest you:

Quote

Below we would explore the above still further. This would lead us to our theory of the Hell so to say...

With every interaction with this world as above, I am, let us say, learning some ‘lessons.’ These lessons are stored in the form of a particular polarization of virtual particles around my ‘I’, around my Mosc, in the relevant layers. With every lesson learnt, with every particular polarization of virtual particles around my Mosc, I try to re-arrange my outside world while at the same time going further into interaction with it.

Each and every interaction with the world and the lessons thus learnt further send the virtual particles constituting my mind into re-arrangement, into new polarization. And so on. This I call the ‘continuous, creative, corresponding dialogue’ going on between my mind and the outside world.

Life is nothing but a continuous process of learning lessons. When all the lessons have thus been learnt, the arrangement of virtual particles constituting my mind is in perfect harmony with the arrangement of actual particles outside, in other words, with the outside world. Then, to say it in the words of John.D.Barrow of The Theories of Everything fame ‘in seeing through everything, I would be seeing nothing at all.’ Or only my own self - my Mosc so to say. In other words, would have annihilated the whole actual world along with the virtual world or the world of my mind. (Now the reader can perhaps understand the quotation of Ramana Maharshi given at the beginning of this chapter: ‘Where is the world except in your mind?’)

Now a little further elaboration on how the lessons are learnt.

Suppose in going out of my room I hit that brick lying in the verandah. I get hurt. That hurt alongwith the lesson that there is a brick lying there and either I should remove it or I should not go that way, is registered in my mind in the re-arrangement of corresponding virtual particles constituting it. Then I may perhaps re-arrange the placement of that brick or may not go that way in further carrying on with my job in hand. Now this is the lesson of the first kind as discussed above.

An other example. Suppose I am in love with a girl. Then one day I find her flirting with another man. I am learning my lessons at the second layer of my mind, the electromagnetic interactions layer. Or suppose I manage to marry her and she does not come up to my expectations. There is a daily quarrel in the house. I continue to learn my lessons. The virtual particles constituting my mind go on churning new permutations and combinations. Alternatively, suppose I am a girl and have found a perfect husband. Blinded by my infatuation for him I ignore my own individuation needs. The whole world ridicules me but I am unable to extricate myself from his clutches. I continue to learn my lessons.

An other example. Suppose I am a drunkard. Daily I get abused because of that habit. There are other reasons because of which I cannot for the present leave the habit. But that is not to say that abuses have no effect on me. I continue to learn my lessons: lessons that drinking is a bad habit, that it has ruined me, that I should have not fallen into the habit in the first place etc. etc. The virtual particles constituting my mind continue to get re-arranged. I continue to arrange my actual world accordingly to the limits I can, considering all the factors acting on me at any given point of time.

An other example. Suppose I do a Socrates on the world. And I am sentenced to death. Till the end I would be busy learning my lessons: lessons that silence perhaps would have been the best thing and so on; and would continue to re-arrange my virtual particles surrounding my ‘I’, surrounding my individualized Mosc.

An other example seemingly on the positive side. Suppose I have become the governor of a state. I would like to be the president. I would continue to learn my lessons towards that direction even if I may not become one in my present incarnation.

On the other hand, now suppose I have become the president of a state. Initial euphoria over, I find that it is, in fact, a throne of thorns. I cannot even sleep in peace. I continue to learn my lessons. At the end I would perhaps decide that I would no longer want to be the president. May even like to be a wandering fakir.

All these lessons I learn daily, modify, and carry-over to the next day, further modify and carry-over throughout my life. Similarly, all these lessons I learn each life, modify, and carry-over to the next life, modify and carry over to the next life and so on: that is, till I have learnt all of my lessons.

Now, so far I can understand it, the final arrangement or polarization of the virtual particles around one’s ‘I’, one’s Mosc for each life, the arrangement at the time one dies - the final resultant of the lessons so to say (would the scientists call that the Bose-Einstein condensate of virtual bosons?) - does not disintegrate and is carried over intact beyond death. Having shed its actual body (body mainly belonging to or taking part in gravitational and electromagnetic interactions), it is now in the purely virtual realm, with a virtual body with the ‘account’ of the lessons. And that, in other words is to say, is to be in Hell.

Here I may quote from C.G.Jung’s ‘death’ experience to support our above view. Writes he in Memories, Dreams, Reflections:
As I approached the steps leading up to the entrance…a strange thing happened. I had the feeling that everything was being sloughed away..the whole phantasmagoria of earthly existence fell away or was stripped from me…Nevertheless something remained; it was as if I now carried along with me everything I had ever experienced or done, everything that had happened around me. I might also say: it was with me, and I was it.

Now, so long as this arrangement of virtual particles around one’s ‘I,’ one’s Mosc is there, one may be supposed to have an individual soul. These individual souls thus moving in the virtual world may, in other words, be described as the souls which have yet not learnt all their lessons.

After a suitable time all such individual souls - souls burdened by certain arrangement of virtual particles - would re-emerge into their new space-times automatically chosen by them in such a way that they would begin learning their lessons from where they left them in their previous births/lives. Of course, when they would reach the identical ages through cyclical development in their next lives.

The drunkard in his next birth would automatically shun drink. A Socrates in his next birth would see virtue in silence. A governor in his next birth would find situations automatically favoring his elevation to the presidentship of a state. A president who would like to be a fakir would automatically find his environment now pushing him towards that direction, and so on.

The important thing is not the governorship or the presidentship but the lessons - those one has learnt and those one has yet to learn. With all the lessons having thus been learnt there would come a time when there would be no arrangement of virtual particles surrounding one’s ‘I’ at the time of one’s death. Thenceforth, the soul would cease to be an individual soul, and would merge into the All Soul - into Mosc through and through. It would have reached Heaven, in other words.

This is the way account of one’s actions/karma is kept in Hell and is looked into to decide whether to allow one to enter into Heavens or to be sent back.

With each successive birth, with each set of lessons having thus been learnt, we go down and down into the virtual realm. The down we go the farther our world expands on reincarnation, or farther we interact with the world. The farther our world expands on reincarnation, the down we go. Beginning from the downmost point in the Universal context we would reach to become the ultimate ‘species’ on what some wise man has termed The Great Chain of Being.

I like to think that some far-off stars - perhaps of the likes of neutron stars or brown dwarfs etc - began almost from the downmost point, and thus are our end species on the Great Chain of Being scale. Unquote

thank you

Skepticsch,

I've heard Deepak speak quite a bit and he tends to be pretty scientific as this is his training and background.

I find hardcore materialists and religious fundamentalist more alike then they are different. Both of these groups are terrified of the idea that there may be something that lies outside their dogma; whether that dogma is their own religious text or scientific methodology.

Peace,
Scott.

Skepticsch,

I've heard Deepak speak quite a bit and he tends to be pretty scientific as this is his training and background.

I find hardcore materialists and religious fundamentalist more alike then they are different. Both of these groups are terrified of the idea that there may be something that lies outside their dogma; whether that dogma is their own religious (of course interpreted by their religious leader) or scientific methodology.

Peace,
Scott.

How many of the following do we believe in?

Astrology, spirituality, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance and ESP!

Jung believed in all of them! Do you?

Yoga Sutra
II. 39 aparigrahasthairye janmakathamta sambbodhah
Knowledge of past and future lives unfolds when one is free from greed.

Aparigraha means not only freedom from material greed, but also freedom from rigidity of thought. Holding onto the same thought patterns -- out of stubbornness and possessiveness --is a form of grasping which prevents evolution.

Live and let live! We can all believe what we want to believe. As long as it is presented as “a belief” all is fine. But pretending to know is different!

Shouldn’t we all look for common ground? Does pretending to know life after death make sense? Why not investigate what others have to say? Remember the “you are either with me or against me”?

Skeptisch,

We should probably read the book before assuming it's "non-scientific", don't you think?

Scott.

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

I just read all the reviews and they are glowing. I am looking forward to reading this book.peace ruth...

weatherthestorms:

I guess you'd have a good sense in what's involved with charlatanism, pretense and hypocrisy.

There is a concept called free will, that intertwines with th econcept of intelligent design. Look up free will on Wiki, why don't you.

If you cannot see past your obession with trying to get attention from the Chopras and others here, your will definitely have a next life, methinks.

I do believe you were looking in the mirror when you wrote the last line of your... well just what is it? I hestitate to say poem. Perhaps versified rant is an acceptable description of that.

"We should probably read the book before assuming it's "non-scientific", don't you think?"

You are right Scott!

How do you know I have not read it? Do you find his previous books scientific?

Reading some comments;
to think, about, the experience, is, not, the, experience, itself,
Love, Passion!, but it takes all kinds of (weird?)neuro-associations..

Anyhow,
on the Blog, reading the names, of all those spiritual writers, commenting, wow! but where are Louise Hay's and Wayne Dyer's?

Richard Gere now too? LOL,
that dude always had that innerpeace aura going on,

Anyhow, what were we talking about, aha, contrast, or death, yes, I still havn't got that Kama Sutra thing..;)

first things, first,

Love, Passion!

Deepak/Carolyn

Great.... congratulations Deepak.. "my favorite topic" can't wait to read the book.

Ashie

Well, this is an exciting thread!

Ref. 22. Nice Scott! Ref. 23, good points Skeptisch. Ref. 26, very interesting Harb. Ref. 35, 40, and 41; oh our dear Bhagwan, tis always a pleasure reading your 'stuff.'

Peace

Skeptisch,

I have worn the same shoes you now have on.

If ever you could be touched by grace,

as I once have been, you will have to ask yourself

"what just happened?" and then try to answer it

with biology, scientific fact, etc.

You will come up with some plausable retorts,

but what you have read here and elsewhere on this

very important subject, will sneak it's thoughts

into your brain and you will have to deal with them,

or go crazy, basically.

Really...only personal experience will carry you

"over the hump" of skepticism, so I do not expect

you to concurr with a few of us at this point in time.

I'm glad you're here to read, if you do actually.

You won't forget it when the proper time comes,

try, try, try as you may.

You will never forget it after the fact, either.

That is why it is so important to me.

I also believe that at least part of your character

remains with you no matter how many times you incarnate.

Your "essence", that IS!

You are on the right track, Skeptisch.

Keep the questions coming till you learn for your Self.

The hard way...like everything else, is worth your time.

Hand in there and peace w/goodwill to U, from Me2!

Skeptisch,

I assume that you haven't read the book as it has not yet been released.

Peace,
Scott.

“Chopra presents a fascinating account of life after death for Westerners that will certainly please his avid fans and draw in new readers as well.” -- Publishers Weekly, starred review

How many fans? 100,000?

How many new readers? 1000?

How many established scientists of reputation in them who believe this proof? NONE

Does this so called "rational proof based on science" ever be published in a scietific journal?

NEVER

What about the evidence:

• At the Univ. of Virginia an ongoing program has located more than 2,500 children who remember past lives, including details about former lifetimes that can be factually verified.
• Information theory is having an influence on cutting-edge physics. It theorizes that like matter and energy, information cannot be destroyed. In other words, survival of the soul may be a matter of conserving information.
• Also in physics, quantum field theory has led to experiments (at Princeton among other places) where ordinary people can change reality through intention alone--they can make a computer generate numbers, for example, in a certain pattern. This goes a long way to showing that the mind isn't confined to the brain.
• Cross-cultural studies are showing that societies as diverse as Tibet and modern America display exactly the same near-death phenomena.

These observations that can be scientifically explainable without resorting to the paranormal, souls and God.

Let’s say, if some university does research on the claims of telepathy, does that mean that the phenomenon exists?

There is no objective proof or a scientific or rational proof for the existence of afterlife. If there is one, it would appear as scientific manual and would create front page news.

So, is Deepak Chopra misusing the evidence to put forth his theories and claiming to prove it scientifically? Sure, when he advertised the book as having a rational proof for the existence of souls. You don’t have to read this book and waste your money to know that it is not scientific. If you are interested fairy tales of souls and science you can go buy this book. This book is not for the one who knows understands science and rationality. He shall be thoroughly disappointed.

Thangaraj

Scott and anybody else who wants to answer; do you honestly think a scientific mind is capable of writing something like this?

“--Faith will no longer be seen as an irrational departure from reason and science.
--Aspects of the paranormal and miraculous will be widely credited.”

Do you think Deepak’s previous books were scientific?

LIFE AFTER DEATH was made available for previewing and one of the comments was this,

"What are we really left with by someone who has read a lot of books on physics and religion and blurred them together into a big bad quantum soup of 'my ideas are better than yours because I read a lot."

Since many here believe Deepak’s books are scientific, there must be many scientists that agree with him.

Please name some of those scientists along with their credentials!
Thanks.

It is my thought, that faith is simply the realization from direct experience, that there is an all pervading collective intelligence and singular Being operating behind all that is.

When one understands this they allow for it to play a role in their daily events and decision making. Such that often one does not have to worry about the detail and will allow things to flow with nonresistance.

However one important attribute for this to work is rational thinking. In other words it doesn't mean you can jump off a building and expect gravity to stop operating.

-----------------------This is from The Kybalion

So, finally, students all, grasp the advantage of Mentalism, and learn to know, use and
apply the laws resulting therefrom. But do not yield to the temptation which, as The Kybalion
states, overcomes the half-wise and which causes them to be hypnotized by the apparent
unreality of things, the consequence being that they wander about like dream-people
dwelling in a world of dreams, ignoring the practical work and life of man, the end being that
“they are broken against the rocks and torn asunder by the elements, by reason of their
folly.”

Rather follow the example of the wise, which the same authority states, “use Law
against Laws; the higher against the lower; and by the Art of Alchemy transmute that which
is undesirable into that which is worthy, and thus triumph.”

Following the authority, let us avoid the half-wisdom (which is folly) which ignores the truth that: “Mastery consists not in abnormal dreams, visions, and fantastic imaginings or living, but in using the higher forces against the lower–escaping the pains of the lower planes by vibrating on the higher.” Remember always, student, that “Transmutation, not presumptuous denial, is the weapon of the Master.” The above quotations are from The Kybalion, and are worthy of being committed to memory by the student

We do not live in a world of dreams, but in an Universe which, while relative, is real so far
as our lives and actions are concerned. Our business in the Universe is not to deny its
existence, but to LIVE, using the Laws to rise from lower to higher–living on, doing the best
that we can under the circumstances arising each day, and living, so far as is possible, to
our highest ideas and ideals.

The true Meaning of Life is not known to men on this plane–if, indeed, to any–but the highest authorities, and our own intuitions, teach us that we will make no mistake in living up to the best that is in us, so far as is possible, and realizing the Universal tendency in the same direction in spite of apparent evidences to the contrary.

We are all on The Path–and the road leads upward ever, with frequent resting places.

"The After-Life Experiments", by Gary Schwartz, 2001.

George Anderson,"Lessons From The Light", 2001.

A scientist and a participant.

An American University donated it's services.

The experiments could not have been made any more "blind".

Information concerning the present and the future

is revealed from somewhere, Skep.

Tell us how the mediums "pull it off"

without ever seeing or speaking to

the person behind the curtain.

.

Dave...where the heck are you?

"Out of Business"...I remember...too bad for us.

Won't you join, meld and in-lighten us?

Stan? Horses mouths? Night mares?

Boo!!!(;-) You will not scare me,

it's all Good!

Skeptisch you are right.

"The Will to Believe' is a powerful mechanism in our species it seems. In fact, this totally fundamental dude I know who works at the Union Gospel Mission declares, about a dude who has managed to be sober for a year, "it is a miracle!"

And I am thinking; please . . .

Or somebody 'miraculously' recovers from cancer, vs. Lance Armstrong 'willing' himself to overcome his cancer (having a strong will with the best drugs available can never hurt).

But, I do not see a million African babies with AIDS suddenly being cured. I do not see all of the submarines, warplanes, and guns in the world suddenly disappearing. And Benny Hinn has definitely not come around lately curing me of my Hep C.

I really like the way Viktor Frankl strives to make meaning out of nothing; and this alone is the proof to God's greatness, this,

and the love I feel in my heart for Linda, or you, or my drunken Indian brother in the alleyway.

Beyond that: there is no beyond!

Getting attuned to the universal Oneness, or, The Way, or, Christ, or, Allah, or, YHWH, or, a 'Higher Power,' be that power even a doorknob . . .

Well . . .

Show me a real miracle and let ‘our’ government quit killing people!

Peace

Craig, I know exactly where you are coming from. Your people are my people too!

Scott, I guess not answering any questions is an answer too. Too bad!

Dear Skeptisch, you write:
[Scott and anybody else who wants to answer; do you honestly think a scientific mind is capable of writing something like this?

“--Faith will no longer be seen as an irrational departure from reason and science.
--Aspects of the paranormal and miraculous will be widely credited.”]

I would like to answer :)

Yes, I do believe a true scientific mind, one that is open to question ALL existing premises, is capable of coming to the same conclusions as Deepak has.

If science is to be openminded, it has to question everything, including the belief that faith and science are incompatible.

Every person who has studied life from within, KNOWS without a doubt that faith is not only reasonable, but also logical. I do not wake up every morning, worrying if our planetary system will keep together for still another day, I have "faith" that what has kept it going until now will continue to do so. I do not doubt that my nails will grow the millimeter they will, I know they will, on a level that is rational, but also instinctual. Both you and I automatically have "faith" in millions of things every day, faith is built in in the fabric of the universe. Even the faith in a higher reason, a higher intelligence and so on, is built in, until this so called "faith" becomes knowingness.

It is understandable that [having faith means being reasonable and scientific] can only be a hypotesis for every one of us, until we have experimented enough in our lives and proved its validity. But no one who is a real scientist will discard this hypotesis on the ground that it hasn't been proved yet :)))) A scientist has to be able to see through any skepticism and look, look again, do research with fresh eyes and without emotional hang ups or biases.

Wouldn't it be interesting if after death everyone were to be obsessed with becoming alive again, perhaps because life might be where all the action is?
If one had certain knowledge about it, what difference would it really make to you, and why?
What would you do differently?

Aurora, do you mean to say that Deepak Chopra is a "true scientist" and other scientists who don't agree with his proof aren't? That is to say that they are biased and not open-minded when they disagree with the findings and insights of Dr. Chopra on the basis of science?

Science is unbiased and objective in its theories. Theories can put to test with experiments by checking if the observed results are consistent with the expected results. Theories of afterlife don’t stand up to scientific questioning and skeptical way of thinking.

Yes, Skepticism is good for science. The burden of proof is on the one who wants to prove something. It is on Deepak Chopra and he is doomed to fail miserably since the so called proof is not going to be a “scientific proof” by all means. Any scientific journal will throw this book away at the first inconsistency or fallacy, and it shall never find its way to the racks of Science Section in book stores. It is what they call Pseudo-science based on half baked theories. Theories which aren’t fully established and are based on enormous number of propositions whose truth value is unknown and that can predict infinite possibilities out of which one could be the theory of souls. If that is what is open-mindedness of the “true scientists” like Deepak Chopra?, then we can believe in any stupid theory put forward by an layman, you or me with ignorant minds, because any assertions can be proved out of infinite contradictory theories.

Dear Abhay,

everyone is free to agree or disagree with something. But what I call "a true scientist" is one who does not consider a theory "doomed to fail miserably" simply because he personally doesn't agree with it.

We all have our theories and our beliefs. But if we don't want to live in a stagnant world, we need to allow our theories and beliefs to change, sometimes even realizing that what we have opposed so vehemently is actually true. This applies even more to scientists.

Just because the world was skeptical of electricity once upon a time, it doesn't mean electricity didn't exist. Skepticism is good as long as it is flexible and ready to let go of itself when the time comes. Otherwise, it becomes a petty, rigid attitude, clinging to reliques of the past.

There is no need to feel personally threatened by the insights and findings of other minds. When we are open minded, if those insights are real, through continued inquiry and experiment we will also gain access to them.

Dear Aurora, science is not rigid so to speak. Newton’s laws of motions are not the absolute theories as they are true under only certain conditions. For other conditions Einstein’s theories are added on. Science keeps on changing and that is the beauty of science. When it comes to the so called scientific proof of Deepak Chopra it is but pseudo science, because the theory cannot be tested to see if the results agree with the predictions 100% of the times. So, it is not science. Science is not concerned with the so called “ULTIMATE REALITY OR GOD”. It is only a tool to verify a theory. It has its limitations and one such limitation is the proof that an all powerful GOD exists. When it comes to afterlife research, science is open-minded and all scientists as you say are “true scientists” who are open for every possibility. They think outside the box but didn’t find anything about the claims about souls which cannot be explained by the more earthly scientific explanations without resorting to the paranormal.

Dear Abhay, thank you for your kind reply. It is good that science is open minded and open to all possibilities. All that is needed is that they continue to do research, unbiased and unthreatened by what they find.

I think the best we all can do, scientists or not, is to not set any limits to what we think is possible to discover. I've been surprised many times by my own findings, and I have had to accept that it has been my own perception and biases that have hindered me from seeing what was already there. As long as we don't cling to what we know today, we can find out what else there is.

After the 100% proof is in the books

science attempts to give us the "hows".

The scientists then go home to deal with it personally in privacy.

Never in public will they reveal their attitudes

or their questions concerning the "whys".

They do not believe that all things are possible.

They believe that all things are explainable.

They must have faith in their own hypothesis

or they would never test it to begin with.

.

You may choose to live life according to mathmatics.

The artist chooses to live life for the beauty

they see that cannot be denied.

A scientist does not have free-will.

You will never actually determine a measurement

for love, friendship or faith in God.

Who do you want beside you as you lay in your death-bed?

Einstein or Mother Teresa?

Dear everyone,

I have to get something of my heart! I thought this would be a site where everyone who is involved would respect each others views. That does not mean we HAVE to agree with each other or that we HAVE to deliver proof for our views. I guess many scientists have made statements in the past that were ridiculed and laughed at.. But some of those statements were accepted on wide scale a few decades or centuries later.. I think there is nothing wrong that we all have different views and beliefs (because in the end Skeptisch also yours are only beliefs, because as perhaps no one at this point can proof life-after-death to exist, but I bet you cannot proof that it does not exist either)...

Can we please have a bit more respect for each other (I will not mention names, but I have really been bothered a bit about some personal attacks that have been going up and down)? Can we please accept that this world has probably as many different views as it has different people. And can we please stop judging others for something we do ourselves too?

I guess not, I guess I better just stop reading or contributing to this site, because all that is happening is a 'fight' in words just to degrade the views of others and to make our own 'oh so important' points!

WW, can you also just talk normally or will you keep on hiding behind your poems?

Dear Deepak, I liked your post and liked the interesting debate which is going on.

wietskemedema/Sachin, why do you want to unnecessarily create a problem/ nuisance here? No one has attacked any one personally and no one took an offense as you seem to paint a picture here under the cover of your pseudonym.

I am sorry, I just realised that I just ignored all the wonderful comments that have been put on this site just to share experiences from the heart. It was not my intention to overlook those. I guess I just got caught up in a slight mood of irritation... Sorry about that.

Dear nan d

weitskemedema does not seem to be Sachin, according to my reading of his/her content and style, not to mention his/her challenge to WW.

love, Heather

Dear Nan_d, I am sorry you took my comment as an attempt to create nuisance/ problems. I am by the way using my own name, not a pseudonym.

Q. Why does information theory inform our understanding of the afterlife?
A. Physics already accepts that matter and energy cannot be destroyed. Information theory posits that the same is true of all the information in the universe. This implies that our minds--the source of information in the form of thoughts--cannot be destroyed, either. The mind may undergo transformation after death, but it would still survive in some form.-Deepak Chopra.
Dr Deepak Chopra,
I agree with your answer. Matter and energy cannot be destroyed.
Mind –the source of information in the form of thoughts-cannot be destroyed, either.
So the point is not life after death but to realize NO-MIND, which is not matter and energy. What you are saying is so-called consciousness that science, physics and new age gurus are coming closer to understand through mind.
Realized is one who uses his mind as an instrument to convey his massage that is consciousness, which comes from NO-MIND.
Meditation is the only Solution.

There is no rational proof....all that there is, is what our own mind can comprehend, which is influenced of course, by what we see and read.

What I like about Harb's book, Self Designed Universe; is it's his own theory.. not ancient text, or allready well-researched information; re-arranged real pretty, to meet current customer "needs & wants" to hear/read the impossibles or possibles, which trouble their thoughts.

After a while; it's just a marketing scheme, taking advantage of consumers with troubled minds.

I've had near death experiences; and though I've convinced myself that's what it were, by the support of doctor statements; what IF, I were merely in a state of limbo in my memory chambers?

North

I think we are rather presumptive to think that there is an interminable cycle of after-life! For what purpose, may we ask, would nature install such an endless cycle of birth-death-and-re-birth?

For what purpose?

If life on earth began as a single cell billions of years ago, say, does that mean that we are a continuum of that original cell? a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion times over? Then that original cell never died. It just learned how to propel itself endlessly into the future, right?

In my view, man does not fully understand what is meant by billions of years of the complex evolutionary process and the billions and billions of generations of mutating life forms that have preceded us. We have only now just begun to tinker with and to understand this mind-numbing process. We are not physiologically equipped to think in terms of the passage of billions of years.

Therefore, caution must be the better part of valor in our postulations!

Regards...

Dear Scott,
Thanks for sharing The Final Drama here. It was touching.

It's true that we don't like to talk about death in our culture, and I believe this is due primarily to our deep fears.

Probably, Deepak's book will help to dispel some anxiety related to this topic, and usher in our society some much needed acceptance of the inevitability of death.
Love,
Donatella

Skeptisch,

"Scott, I guess not answering any questions is an answer too. Too bad!"

Not ignoring you or avoiding your question. I just have not been on the internet since I last posted.

My view of a scientific mind is one that is open to all things. Certainly a "scientific mind" could write all sorts of things, and have all sorts of beliefs. To suggest that a scientist cannot have faith or that he cannot believe that faith has power is an extremely narrow viewpoint.

Peace,
Scott.

Ron, thanks for the big picture! It needs a brain wired like yours to point that one out.

It helps to read Dawkins too!

Ref. 66; exactly North. Ref. 67; how so true Ron (remember Sagan's 'billions and billions . . .', I always liked the way he would say that; 'billions and billions').

Are ye speaking of the Holy Spirit Aurora? "Faith is built in in [sic] the fabric of the universe. Even the faith in a higher reason, a higher intelligence and so on, is built in, until this so called "faith" becomes knowingness." Or is this the mystical 'knowingness' of a guru?

WW, or, Bhagwan that is, you are a naysayer par excellence. Excellent!

Peace all

Hello Deepak and Everyone

Just read through comments above.

Scott, a beautiful piece, a beautiful tribute to your Mom.

peace ruth

5 signs the U.S. government wrought Apocalypse is near:

1) ‘Senate approves record $448 billion defense bill’
http://[delinker]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15061399/from/RS.4/

2) ‘House approves (warrantless) wiretap law’
http://[delinker]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15051779/

3) ‘Abramoff had more White House ties’
http://[delinker]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15058366/

4) ‘Abramoff prison delay granted’
http://[delinker]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15061226/from/RS.3/

and the fifth reason we know doom is just around the corner . . .

5) ‘Anna Nicole Smith gets married, sort of’
http://[delinker]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15061612/

God day all . . .

Peace

I haven't had the time to read all the comments on this thread yet, but one thing I'd like to add here is that the study of dreams may provide us with a clue to whether there is life after death or not. Scientific study of dreams may lead us to the truth.

I have been having a lot of lucid dreams lately and they also feel like OBEs to me. If anyone here has any *first hand* experiences related to these, I'd be interested to know. Richard? Anyone?

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Craig,
I don't think the Apocalipse is here, but global warming is :)
Good first 4 points. I do not wish to know about the lives of celebrities...it seems to me like an invasion of privacy, so I'll skip point 5.

I want to add an important point:
"Republicans are not only for torture, but they're against habeas corpus. You know, that little bitty right in the Constitution that grants people due process. Senator Specter offered an amendment, but the Republicans voted it down, 51 - 48. The Bush-Republican Pro-Torture bill is now law. Torture is legal for the United States."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/taylor-marsh/vote-protorture-republic_b_30509.html

I hope that people on death row and those who are about to die from torture believe in life after death. Love, Donatella

#67--Ron, I think our human bodies are merely adapting to environments, attributed to global, planet-changes. We, as humans are merely adapting, via an eternal link, for securing "a way" to keep human beings from becoming extinct; due to our global warming and pollution challenges? Like a chameleon; are we humans evolving into more of our spirit-essences, like a seed; as our physical existance, is jeopardized? As I mentioned, in my few near-death experiences.... who can truly surmize, I was crossing a membrane into a new realm; or did I plant my existance, into it's eternal(realm) shell; which is so miniscule... it merely transplants again, in new life, and re-grows OF the same spirit?(wink)

@Craig, thanks for the nod(wink), I cannot recall my exact first experience, but was confirmed by those with me, second time--I felt "aware" and did not fight it at all, I went paralyzed from feet up; and my #66 is further being reinforced with my above mentioned, for Ron.

North

I believe..our spirit is a seed; the 11 grams not accountable lost in body weight upon death(wink.)

Every single human being, dies 11 grams less in weight, regardless of weight.

Love,
North

Hi Navin,

Lars has provided a link in his post # 7. Use that link. At the end of the article you’ll see link to a Nadi site (remember we discussed about it?). These guys do not insist on your physical presence. You can even send your thumb impression by post.

Sanjeev

Dear Craig, you ask:
"Are ye speaking of the Holy Spirit Aurora? "Faith is built in in [sic] the fabric of the universe. Even the faith in a higher reason, a higher intelligence and so on, is built in, until this so called "faith" becomes knowingness." Or is this the mystical 'knowingness' of a guru?"

Nothing mystical at all. It's the same knowingness someone has about swimming after thay have learned to swim. At first, you have to have faith that you won't drown, but with courage, effort and experience... you one day know what you're talking about. Even if a whole population is convinced that swimming is a myth and ridicules your findings... you know what you know.

Faith is nothing other than an intuitive knowingness we have before we have actually proved something with the tools of the mind. Many people have an intuitive knowingness of the things discussed in this blog, and many have all the proof they need :) I admire those who continue to help others over the treshold.

Hello Everyone,

Donatella, you write

"I want to add an important point:
"Republicans are not only for torture, but they're against habeas corpus. You know, that little bitty right in the Constitution that grants people due process. Senator Specter offered an amendment, but the Republicans voted it down, 51 - 48. The Bush-Republican Pro-Torture bill is now law. Torture is legal for the United States."

I second your motion on the importance of this, two things concern me, the enlisted men and women in jail, now, for their inhumane treatment towards prisoners in Abu Grubby, in Iraq, it seems they WERE (in light of Bush's push to have torture permission "in writing") JUST FOLLOWING THE ORDERS GIVEN TO THEM. I think charges should be dropped against these men and women.

Second, I think this move will have a devastating effect on all Americans in our future.

November elections are coming up..it is time for change, serious change, vote.
peace ruth

Dear Donatella and Ruth

Thanks for bringing this issue up here. Ruth, thanks for the reminder to vote, to make a difference.

love, Heather

Only the American people can stop their president!

Not with violence, but with a show of solidarity!

For years, since his election and invasion of Iraq, under "false & deceiving" conditions; I have been posting and emploring the American people, to just say NO!

You must all conspire to take off one-two weeks holdiday, all at the same time!! Stop the madness, it is your money, being used.

Since I installed a "war costs in Iraq" toll on my blog, it has increased by over 1.7 billion of YOUR money!!

So, stop the source-flow.... stop working!! Stop buying... what have you got to lose, except the worlds respect, your dignity, and future survival among the rest of the world? huh? huh? huh?

Just say NO! or, will you wait until a Hitler0-wannabe's of your leadership, coming banging on your door soon, to drag you off, and torture you, b/c you are friends with anyone from Asia?

HeloOooo down there....(F-word planeted here!)

Human torture is the abomination of the human spirit!

TRUTHFULLY to end my rant; the pharmaceutical companies, the doctors, lawyers and chiefs will all financially benefit from the mental terrorism they inflict upon you.

A pill can make you sleep, or keep you awaks..but only open eyes, and the truth... will set you free!

YOUR Thanksgiving in November, how can you all celebrate, when your country is at war, with an innocent nation?

MY HOUSE< is not celebrating thanksgiving this year, now that our Canadian boys are dying.. also under false pretense : (

This is our WAY to stand and unite--because so far, our leaders have managed to divide us, and inflict fears so powerful...we eat pills to exist?

North

Ref. 80. I appreciate you faith Aurora!

Ref. 81. Bhagwan you so funny!

Ref. 82. A government that no longer adheres to it's own constitution deserves to no longer be the government, after all, let us not forget what Bush said, "the Constitution is just a damn scrap of paper."

And obviously, by sanctioning torture, and denying basic human rights to anybody, and everybody, apparently who Bush decides is 'unworthy,' well, what is there to any longer safeguard anybody?

But everbody who does not have a Masters degree is just too busy keeping food on the table, and gas in the car, to do anything about being a Wal-Mart slave or McDonalds food pusher . . .

Meanwhile the mega-corporations continue to export jobs to China and India so they can get people to work for two dollars a day and take our health coverage away; b/c 'privatized' medicine just provides more bang for the capitalists' buck; or, in other words, medical for the well-to-do, and more riches for the 'providers;'

yeah yeah yeah . . .

Ref. 84. You go North!

Peace

Does everyone realize that science has been consistently wrong through the ages?

In fact 3 things that were impossible, are now possible in the last few years. There were actually proofs written in the past showing they were impossible.

But science has also said "nothing is impossible"

The issue is that what we call "reality" can change, and science hasn't accomodated this yet.

It is like I have always said,

The universe keeps expanding, and we keep bringing more stars into existence everytime we build a more powerful telescope.

Whenever we post a comment we write in response to a memory... ponder that

Dear Richard

A wise and perceptive comment. One note: Science is accomodating the possibility of being wrong -- on the fringe of things are those who challenge status quo, who intuit faults in theories or applications, Via the lunatic fringe (jsut a figure of speech, btw), and sometimes completely be chance, discoveries and corrections are made.

love, Heather

Richard, to be fair, could you give us a few examples were science was wrong.

The wonderful thing about science is the scientific method:
· 1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
· 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
· 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
· 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
· 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.
Since Deepak is scientific he will use the above to come to his conclusions and he will have many scientists that support him.

We are still waiting for some names!

Dear We's,

1.Sir Alister Hardy(crdentials galore)

2.Lyall Watson

3.Ted Peters

4.Martinez Hewlett

5.Stanislav Grof

6.Gregory Morris

Have a nice day!

Dear Sanjeev,

Thanks for your #79. I followed Lars' link and scrolled till the end, but could not find the "nadi site" link you mentioned. Maybe what you saw was a random google ads link......can you give me the direct link to the "nadi site" you mentioned here?

Cheers!
Navin

Hi Navin,

Here's the link:

http://www.astroved.com/services/services.asp?Content=nadi

Sanjeev

Skeptisch, Craig & North,

Thank you all for your participating in the dabate!

Regards.

T'was my pleasure for sure, participating with you and all, Ron!

Love,
North

Mystery of death has baffled mankind since time immemorial.Man has always sought answer to " What happens to the soul after death ?"
In Vedic scripture ( Kath Upanishad) the Yama , Lord of death said " The self that is subtler than the subtle and greater than the great, is lodged in the heart of every creature ". Only God is great and therefore this means the soul is either God or part of it as a drop of water being part of ocean.
This further implies that the spirit or soul like God is immortal,which is also corroborated by Lord Krishna in Bhagvad Gita.
Similarly Vedanta says that " we are not this body and mind but are essentially divine" and by Jnana yoga comes the spiritual enlightment through discrimination and reason ( Logical approach ). Making strong use of powers of mind one can go beyond visible universe.
Thus by harnessing powers of mind by training one can see what is happening beyond.Lord Krishna had to give nonphysical eyes to Arjuna to see His Virat manifestation and His creation beyond . No axiom then is necessary.
Perhaps this supports the sayings of Eastern spiritual Masters that any one can enter the upper planes /upper realms and unite with the ultimate ,with transcedental meditation performed under the guidance of perfect master or Guru who has himself fathomed those planes and is adept in guiding his pious and accepted disciples.
Physical sciences perhaps may never be able to reach the planes where soul is said to go after death and return ( reincarnate)with new body to settle the account of deeds or Karmas.
For those who do not believe in reincarnation , unless the science can capture the soul at death and follow its path by physically verifiable means , this riddle shall remain unsolved.

Dear Sanjeev,

Thanks for the link.

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Ruth,

We are at a crossroads, and voting in the following mid-term elections is crucial for the respect of human rights. On the one hand, there is a group of individuals who have gone to great lengths to mislead the American people. On the other hand, we have a chance to see the return of our peace of mind by electing officials who respect the American Constitution.

I'll definitely vote..I wouldn't miss this opportunity to make a difference. And I believe you are right about the following: "the enlisted men and women in jail, now, for their inhumane treatment towards prisoners in Abu Grubby, in Iraq, it seems they WERE (in light of Bush's push to have torture permission "in writing") JUST FOLLOWING THE ORDERS GIVEN TO THEM. I think charges should be dropped against these men and women."

Certainly our American soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances.
Love,
Donatella

Dear North,

I wish you could vote too. Wouldn't it be nice if the vote of our Canadian friends could be counted? :)
Love,
Donatella

Dear Donatella, read all about it on my blog. I confess, my disappointment in the American people, to put down their desires; pick up their spines, and for once... show Bush, who really are the backbone, the liberty of truth, for all of the United States of America! As as a niegbour country, we have for years, faced sanctions when we do not jump into Bush's war-zones of his obviously ulterior and perhaps corrupt manifest?

It is difficult for me to not question why so many "other terrorists" want to destroy yours in America? It is even more difficult a challenge, to ponder whether to even voice my extreme chagrin, over the possibility of torture becoming law in the USA?

It makes me wish, America would take off the word: America; because in this endeavor of the de-humanization of the human being; caused by perversion of power... we are NOT United.

This makes me afraid to be the top-half of the America's...because we absorb the strain with you.

With humble, yet heavy-heart in this pool of adult politics; I have no real "choice" as to parlay in it or not..it is a heavy burden we bear all of us; for the shames commited for our freedom, and corruptions at home.

I've just never...seen the suvival of north america; which is the Canada and United States duo..come to such a dark pool of twisted morality among themselve's?

Time to walk on the beach of peaceful negotiation; and better my ability to swallow such a bitter decision such as this law may allow, and find always, and in all ways; a peaceful way to dis-allow it?

A global walk-out? How can we not make such a walk-out be our voice...this time; as a united way to say NO to Torture?

North

“……north america; which is the Canada and United States……”
What happened to Mexico, North? :)

Thanks Keith for the names. About how scientific these guys are we leave up to the individual “Googlers”.

It would be so easy to reach some common ground if we would argue with some rules. One can dress up his beliefs in al sorts of wrappers, but the one we cannot use is the science wrapper. We cannot use the first few steps of the scientific method and then claim we are scientific. The scientific method always has to go all the way and come up with a conclusion whether something is confirmed and validated or thrown out.

One could write a book about Deepak’s sin bin in this regard, but his admirers would not be interested reading it. Most of them have faith-based brains with a deep-seated desire to believe. There has to be something other than “this”, they feel, something after death. So when somebody comes along and pretends to know there is, many of them found their hero.

How many of us actually and honestly ever entertained the thought that our existence on that precious “Pale Blue Dot” of ours might be all there is? All the empirical evidence says exactly that, but most of us deny it and follow the pretenders. The pretenders can be old books, new books, and new age books. Priests, Pastors, Gurus and others.

Religious faiths are probably the worst! Some of them let their infidels burn in hell after death and others send them there early via suicide bombers. But if you believe in the one true God, which just happens to be your own, you will go to paradise and “live” there ever after and beyond!

The sad thing is, that wonderful feeling of spiritual well-being can be reached without pretension. It can be reached without abandoning true science.

It can be reached through science!

Sure Skeptisch, at that moment I was thinking of the perfect mirror and the mixing of hydrogen and oxygen.

How about this the worlds oceans do not contain salt water. They actually contains sodium and chlorine. In other words there is no salt in the worlds oceans. I know this isn't really about science being wrong but is about a myth that science perpetuates. Salt water is actually impossible.

Empirical Science validates itself by claiming its assertions are based on measurements of physical reality. However, none of its claims has any basis in physical reality.

There is no physical evidence that gravity is proportional to, and therefore a property of mass. There is no way to prove that an object will move in a straight line unless a force acts on it to change that motion and, in fact, nothing moves in straight lines.

The historic swirling mass of gas claimed to impart its motion to matter in the solar system and therefore account for the rotation and orbiting of planets is just an ad hoc fantasy that fails to explain any of the chaotic movement that is the solar system, and the off-the-wall assertion that chaos provides the solar system with the stability it needs if it were formed out of a swirling mass of gas is as nonsensical as the unfounded belief that particles that repel each other hold matter together.

Even the measurable facts Empirical Science claims as validation are opposed by measurements in physical reality. Light, which can be physically measured to diminish out of existence with distance on Earth travels forever in space so that we can see stars at the end of the universe and the beginning of time. Objects, which come to rest with respect to the forces acting upon them on Earth are claimed to move without current force in space.

Energy is always consumed on Earth but gravity, which forces objects to come to rest on the surface of the Earth, is not used up when it bends the straight-line motion of the planets into circular motion. Momentum, which is always overcome by gravity on Earth is not affected by gravity in space allowing planets in space to be bent into perpetual circular orbits.

In putting numbers to things, Empirical Science can only approximate the stars in galaxies and the atoms in matter in the billions, but can tell with precise accuracy the number of electrons orbiting the nuclei of the atom of any element. It uses parallax measurements to determine interstellar distances when the errors that have to be taken into consideration to compute the measurements exceed the measurements themselves.

What is nice though is I have Emperical evidence that time both consumes and can create energy.

Yet science claims energy cannot be created.

The problem with science is that it is all based on physical reality and there is nothing physical it is simply an apearance.

So we have a whole science "Physics" based on an appearance not actuality.

What could be more wrong than that?

Furthermore no scientist has ever seen an electron or let alone an atom. There are no pictures. It is really just a fantasy.

Not any different than those that claim their is a "God".

Yet they believe they exist based on their experience.

You know what scientists have? Emperical data, which is information. Which is fine it is an information universe. If a set of causes produce the same information repeatedly, everytime we can assume that the probability of the same infomration being produced is high.

However sometimes what is probable can change.

Information can change.

Well Richard we tried! I guess there is nothing left than to agree to disagree.

You write, “The problem with science is that it is all based on physical reality”. This appears to be “your problem” and “my salvation”.

It was nice chatting with you, I doubt it will happen again. Not on this subject matter anyway! Take care.

I am off to the local Pub! The Vancouver Whitecaps will play Rochester for the NSL Soccer Championship this afternoon.

Priorities!

Well Skeptisch I actually agree with you on many points regarding religion. I also actually appreciate the skeptics and science hardliners, if it wasn't for them people would be walking through walls and I certainly wouldn't want that.

With the lack of discipline in thought the last thing we would want is people producing stuff out of thin air and bending things with their minds.

Somebody has to maintain some order and boundaries in this universe.

Yes, please include Mexico : )and any other omitted places; sorry Skeptisch, my US geographical skills are minimal at best.

North

Ref: #100.

Well said, my friend!

Cheers!

Hi Ron,
In reading comment # 100 by Skeptisch, I feel his insight here is fantastic:

"...that wonderful feeling of spiritual well-being can be reached without pretension. It can be reached without abandoning true science"

I agree!
Thanks, Skeptisch.
Are you enjoying the soccer match?

With love,
~ Kate

p.s.
if one lives in the present moment, there is no need to worry about 'is there life after death' The answer is revealed in every moment of living
(imo)

oh Ron
It was a multi-color palette sunset this evening!

Rochester 0 Vancouver 3

I already had a few and I am going to have a few extra ones.

I know I represent the minority on IB but that does not mean we should not say what we think is right!

Thanks Ron and Kate!

”if one lives in the present moment, there is no need to worry about 'is there life after death' The answer is revealed in every moment of living”

Wonderfully expressed, let’s savour this life without speculating what might happen after we die!

Skeptisch,

Do you get up every morning with the sole intention

of keeping the Universe balanced and in order?

If so, you have a very important job and apparently it works.

Is that also why you shop and visit here with us?

Are you here to set us straight and correct our beliefs?

Do you travel the Net, visiting various sites

that contain mis-information such as we see at IB?

You must believe you are doing the right thing

out of the goodness of your heart.

If you have a reason to live and get out of bed every morning

is it because you have to? Or want to?

As you walkabout are you worried about chaos, gamma rays,

mutations, natural disasters, law and order, etc.?

.

The Laws make us feel safe because they are dependable.

Do you believe a reliable Universe accidently gave you conciousness?

We don't really need it as long as Mother Nature has it.

It does seem to weigh on us...all these choices we must make.

.

I do believe it's important to view a difficulty

from as many angles and options as are possible.

I have found that many perspectives can be logical

and make "sense" even though they are oppositional.

Using the same Laws we still reach different conclusions.

Many causes are to blame for this discrepency

between our beliefs and hard empirical facts.

.

The Huxley family is a great example of scientists

and artists raising children together.

I hope you know of these famous, genetically favored beings.

.

That science is based on observation and experiment

is a given. I believe we agree on that.

But we are not allowed to experiment on people

or with the stars and planets, so what is one to do?

The extension of the laboratory into outer space

is still a few years away, so it seems.

The experiment with life that knows of it's own existence

and can analyse itself is an observation of inner-space.

That is why you are here, I believe.

You inner spaces are colliding and merging with ours,

even as you read this collection of thoughts

that we term "collective" experiences.

.

Buddha thought no one ever lived a better life here

by constantly thinking about Heaven and how to get there.

William Blake thought that to be an artist of life

one must have a clear vision about what they believe

it must be like to be in Heaven and have existence elsewhere.

Artist are always more creative when it comes to

describing Hell as compared to Heaven.

Don't you wonder why that is?

Me2

I like reading Dr Deepak Chopra's writings because it is so clear and explanatory. It's never confusing and feels like a cool soda on a hot day! It opens my mind to new visualisations, and even though I may not agree on some of the things, it is always a pleasure.

Spirituality and science would probably never meet. Science cannot prove love. But there is no stopping the freedom to try and bridge the gap between the two.

I am not exactly a fan, but I might become one, just for Mr Chopra's sheer fortitude in continuing to share his learnings with us on this blog inspite of rude detractors who continue to call him names and reject his love.

~Peace

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO SHARE YOUR OPINION, NO MATTER HOW CONTROVERSIAL IT MAY SEEM:

Throughout history, those whose ideas, views and experimentations did not conform to status quo or societal norms were subjected to ridicule, condemnation, criticism, ostracism, scorn, persecution and, occasionally, execution.

Almost always, too, those brave enough to chart new frontiers and challenge accepted standards have been proven right!

In other words, they have become history's greatest icons.

Collectively, we must not be afraid to articulate an unconventional opinion or experimentation because of fear of condemnation or rejection. After all, it may just be the right thing to do.

Throughout history, change has been met with stiff opposition and/or universal rejection. It's seems innately human to fear the unknown. We, traditionally, like to create comfort zones for ourselves and then wince at the thought that they may not be as comfortable as we think!

Skeptisch, my friend, keep on sharing your views. They are indeed refreshing, brilliant and encouraging. The world needs more of your type. You are, by far, one of the most advanced minds blogging on this forum. Be proud of yourself!

When somebody disagrees with me they actually disagree, to a large part, with science. The frustrating part is that science in the “most advanced nation in the world” is so controversial.

Thanks Ron for your pat on the back. We both like our buddy Carl Sagan very much. It was he who said:

“In a democracy, opinions that upset everyone are sometimes exactly what we need. We should be teaching our children the scientific method and the Bill of Rights.”

On another front, I just watched Mike Wallace interview Bob Woodward. I admire the American people but deplore how their religious and political leaders can manipulate them. You mentioned once that you think your President is not well! That must be the reason he governs the way he does.

Can you imagine Henry Kissinger fighting Vietnam all over again, and Bush listening? Says Woodward, "Now what's Kissinger's advice? In Iraq, he declared very simply, 'Victory is the only meaningful exit strategy.'" Woodward adds. "This is so fascinating. Kissinger's fighting the Vietnam War again because, in his view, the problem in Vietnam was we lost our will."

It is so sad but your President and his Secretary of Defence are incapable of telling the truth. They are liars!

Watch Larry King tomorrow night and you will agree with me!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml

Bob Woodward on 60 minutes:
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/5/bob_woodward

I watched a special last night, on the 20Billion dollars the US stole from Iraq infrastructure in 2003-2004!! To date, the money is non-accountable! Twenty billion dollars of Iraq money, stolen from the USA government, FROM the peoples of Iraq. LOTS of paper-work were shown, verifying the theft! Times, dates, amounts, witness's. I am ashamed to be neighbours with a country that would do this to another.

Dear Sir,

Apparently synchrodestined I just read an interesting article which was published in 'The Lancet' on december 15th 2001. The article deals with the subject of near death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest. It takes account of the fact that science has already taken notice of out-of-body experiences with verified observations during the period of flat EEG.

The assumption that neurophysical processes are wholly causal tot these experiences couldn't be granted. Experiments with electrical stimulation, hyperventilation, cerebral hypoxia through rapid acceleration or the use of drugs did not succeed in inducing identical results, only partial.

The mechanism which causes out-of-body experiences by stimulation of neurophysical and neurohormonal processes at a sub-cellular level in the brain still remains unknown.

The out-of-the-body and near-death-experiences do push at the limits of medical idea's about the range of human consciousness and mind-brain relation.

The article suggests that the concept of consciousness and memory being localized in the brain should be further discussed. Furthermore the inclusion of the theory and background of transcendence as part of an explanatory framework for these experiences is also recommended.

Yours synergistically, C

P.S. Is ex-peri-ence other than a ripple on the surface of being?

C, this sounds interesting.

To scientifically investigate consciousness seems to be the only way to go, but to do this the brain under investigation has to be alive. To somehow connect this to ”life after death” appears to be a bit of a leap of faith, don’t you think?

We are a long way from a scientific theory on where our memory resides. As far as “life after death” goes, it would have to happen in another world anyway.

There is but One Reality, whether or not it has

3, 5, 7, 9, or 11 dimensions.

When someone disagrees with me they actually disagree,

for the whole part, with God.

As Gandhi stated, freedom has to include the right

to make mistakes.

All then is forgiven the same moment It occurs.

Looking out my window, I see It's still here.

Looking at my screen, I realise that I Am, too!

Unconditional Love knows nothing of trespasses.

Obviously, rationally and logically it cannot exist on It's own.

He who then argues with science, agrees with non-sense.

That be Me2!

I had been given a gift certificate to Chapters bookstore in Canada for my birthday but couldn't decide what book to purchase. "Life After Death" sounds perfect and now I know what to get. I love Deepak's other books so this would be a perfect gift for me.

I have always been fascinated by reported Near Death Experiences, particularly when universal similarities exist in accounts from different parts of the world. These experiences are also transformative in nature, where a person finds deeper meaning or purpose in their life.

My interest in Death and After-life has found expression in our novel, NEXUS, co-written with Deborah Morrison. It's one of the most unsual novels ever written - and one of the most spiritually fulfilling and enjoyable.

I look forward to gaining more understanding about what happens after death from a scientific and spiritual understanding. Books by Deepak are wonderful explorations into self-discovery and the current book sounds equally engaging.

Arvind, just to balance your reading, you may want to give “Letter to a Christian Nation” by Sam Harris a chance.

I spend way too much time on the road, so my little mind has a lot of time to think...

Life after death....reincarnation...hmmmm!!

I'm struggling mightily with something...do we get to choose how we come back??

If so...I've got it down to two choices...I want to come back as a lesbian, or a black angus bull!!

A lesbian...well, I've gotta admit... I like that stuff...!!

A black angus bull. We've got one...he has it made. He eats, sleeps, and breeds. And fully matured, he's gonna weigh about 1800 lbs. Nobody messes with him...

Lessee here....lesbian...cause I like that stuff, or angus bull...eat, sleep, breed......

Wow, I wonder if there'll be a cosmic quarter I can flip......

norm

Deepak, thanks for continuing to let “faith-dissidents” blog on intentblog.

Is it just my imagination or is there a slight shift from faith to reason on intentblog? The political observations always appeared reasonable but the faith stuff still seems “Hocus Pocus”!

Norm, you have been on and off this blog since its creation and it is probably just “the enemy of my enemy is my friend syndrome” that makes me write this. Our political views could not be farther apart, but did “he” have you going for a while?

Is there something happening with you? Not to your political views, they will always be screwed up, but are you moving from faith toward reason?

Ref #108 above posted by our Kate!

Hi Ron,

In reading comment # 100 by Skeptisch, I feel his insight here is fantastic:

"...that wonderful feeling of spiritual well-being can be reached without pretension. It can be reached without abandoning true science"

I agree!
Thanks, Skeptisch.

With love,
~ Kate

P.S.:

If one lives in the present moment, there is no need to worry about 'if there life after death'

The answer is revealed in every moment of living
(IMO)

Oh Ron,

It was a multi-colored palette sunset this evening!

108. Posted by Kate... on September 30, 2006 05:58 PM.******************************************************************************************************************

Dear Kate,

Sincerest thanks,

And warm regards...

Dear Skeptisch,
Did you know, you have a certain way of making reason and science appealing, for such is your passion when you write about it!

I find the human experience is big enough to allow for questioning everything. I have faith in this! :)

With love,
~ Kate

"Though I have always diligently sought for the truth, yet I fear that the recesses in which it is hidden, or my own preoccupations, or a certain dullness of mind may have sometimes stood in my way, so that often in my search for the thing I may have been bewildered by false lights".

Thanks Kate. Keep having “faith” in reason to look for the truth. Your biggest enemy will be fear.

Dear Harb,
What you have written hereabove (excerpt from your book Self Designed Universe) is so very interesting and i agree with North that your theory is so unique, especially your evolution theory.
From what i experienced myself as a profound truth in my life, i found back in Deepak´s books. A truth that perhaps might be difficult to prove but can be lived and with it you can design your own Universe by yourself and create your heaven or hell right here on earth. This is my experience from the lessons i have learned so far in life.
And i guess this is the mission of everyone from "childhood through old age" :)
So i have the deepest respect for everyone who is busy learning his/her lessons in life and is (becoming)aware of it through learning experiences.

Therefore it is great to read all comments on this topic of life after death. I already read the latest book of Neal Donald Walsch that also deals with this subject. He called it "Home with God", but to me it truly meant "Home with yourself" :). I guess Deepak´s book will tell the same truth. So whether you look at it scientifically, philosophically, in a religious way or in whatever way you want, your own way is always the correct way of looking at it at exactly this moment in your life.

I guess the information evolution at this moment in our spacetime really provides us with quantum leaps in both knowledge and intuition.

A bit off topic, still related to it i believe is the following:

In the weekend of 14th and 15th october next, CNN will come with a very interesting television quest called:
"Genius, quest for extreme brain power".

"CNN senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta examines the mysteries behind genius and attempts to answer the classic nature/nurture question of whether high intelligence is inborn or the product of environment.

A practicing neurosurgeon, Gupta starts with a look inside the brain and a discussion with scientists who are using cutting-edge brain imaging to find remarkable difference in the brains of highly intelligent people.

Gupta´s quest takes him from the physiology of genius to the links and differences between intelligence and creativity."

I read this on a CNN teletext page, don´t know yet at what hour exactly they will broadcast it.

hi mieke, welcome, thank you and belated happy birthday! hope your visit to geremany was quite enjoyable...

Hi Harb,

Thanks again and i replied to you and everyone on the Open Thread of this week to thank them for all the great birthday wishes and thoughts :)

It was great in Germany, with its hilly landscape and endless woods, especially when you do not have such in your own country, that of course has other nice surroundings and attractions :). But as you know, we westerns always have to look outside to find something they already possess inside lol

This is what is worries me so much about Dr. Chopra writing the screenplay for the "Buddha" film. Will he be able to set aside what he clearly believes very strongly to write the story of the Buddha? This is not in alignment with Buddhist thought, no matter how much protestation to the contrary. The book Old Path, White Clouds is a masterpiece, I would love to see a film of it, but not if it's painted with the brush strokes of another religion or New Age thought.

Hi Everyone,

I am Carolyn, Deepak's Executive Assistant, and I periodically check these posts since Deepak is traveling for his book tour, Life After Death: The Burden of Proof. I read to him some of the contentious posts on this subject and he said he would be posting more material since this topic obviously is creating a lot of dialogue, some of it quite disagreeable. He made some comments on the phone which I am passing on: All material things are ultimately made up of atoms, the atoms in turn are subatomic particles; the subatomic particles in turn are fluctuations of energy and information in a subatomic void and matter therefore is organized energy and information in a void. Is the void consciousness? He and Dr. VS Ramachandran who is a neighbor of ours and a very good friend of Deepak (he's mentioned by Thangaraj in these posts) have had extensive discussions about this. Dr. Ramachandran has visited Deepak and the Chopra Center on many occasions. Their discussions have covered many areas. The fundamental question always being: Is consciousness an epiphenomenon of our biology or is our biology a function of consciousness? How does a human body or any other biological organism function with simultaneity. There are over 100 trillion cells in a human body (more than all of the stars in the Milky Way galaxy), each cell performing thousands of activities per second. How do they correlate their activities with each other instantly? How does a human body think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remove toxins and make a baby all at the same time while tracking the movements of stars and planets and incorporating them as its biological rhythms (circadian, seasonal, lunar and gravitational). Is this an example of non-local correlation, or quantum entanglement? Is consciousness orchestrating all of this simultaneous activity and correlating it all at the same time? What is the source of insight, intuition, inspiration, intention, creativity, choice making, and free will? Is it just the dance of molecules? Even if it were, aren't those molecules, including the molecules that make up the structure of the brain or for that matter the structure of genes, ultimately fluctuations of energy and information non locally correlating their activities in a huge void. And is the void, just emptiness or could it be the womb of creation? I may not have accurately represented everything he said on the phone, but he will be defintely be posting more when he has access to a computer and exits a plane. Incidentally, Dr. Ramachandran has mentioned Deepak in complimentary terms in some of his speeches and writings as well. A few months ago, Dr. Ramachandran, Al Gore and Deepak had lunch at the Chopra Center for Well Being discussing these matters. I hope you find this information interesting. As I mentioned, Deepak will be posting on this subject again.

Warm Regards,
Carolyn Rangel
Office of Deepak Chopra

Dear Dr Chopra,

I have not yet had the pleasure of reading this new book but I am looking forward to doing so. Before I can comment on it I would like to ask when your book on Intelligent Design will appear.
I hope you don't mind my making a few comments on your book to come rather than the one this one. There are some common traits it seems.
You raise some very interesting points but your “12 main issues”, are so specific that it would take a book in itself to properly answer your questions; and there are answers. Because I think the “essential issues” are different from your “main issues”, I will not linger in answering more than two of your issues as samplers.
If I understand correctly your own personal theory, it revolves around Teleology. This is the essential issue, is it not? In your own words: “Teleology is the notion that purpose underlies process. Evolutionary science thinks teleology is rubbish.” It will become respectable science once we ask a basic question: "How did human beings acquire purpose?" From our brains? Every process in the brain serves a purpose.”
I think that evolutionary science will consider Teleology as a respectable science when it can no longer criticize “it for having a weak experimental foundation and a wealth of assumptions”, as you said so well yourself.
When you say: ”If design doesn't imply intelligence, why are we so intelligent? It is mathematically elegant and appears to be a design that was suited for hundreds of totally unrelated functions in nature. Why do forms replicate themselves without apparent need? If the oxygen doesn't change physically--and it doesn't--what invisible change causes it to acquire intelligence the instant it contacts life? It would seem that Nature, to our embarrassment, simply struck upon a good idea, not a simple mutation. How can whole systems appear all at once?” On notices that what systematically becomes obvious is the fact that the word appears and seems return repeatedly. Appearances are not facts and are subjective not objective arguments. As for the impression that systems appear to be created all at once, may I humbly remind you that these “appearances” have taken in reality several million years to be achieved; if that is instantaneous to some it is because they have difficulty understanding geologic time.
As where competition with the “birds and the bees story” , the fact that some bees can not reproduce may well be one of those “useless mutations” that simply lingers on because it is after all of some use to the hive. As for ‘Beauty’ it is well known that it is in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t think that there is such a thing as absolute beauty (a well known topic of philosophy). If an Alien were to come to Earth with his wife, he may find her extremely beautiful while we may find her absolutely hideous. You say: “Beauty is everywhere in Nature, yet it serves no obvious purpose.” It may not appear to have a purpose and that could well be because what you are considering as beauty is not. You go on to say: “Once a bird of paradise has evolved its incredibly gorgeous plumage, we can say that it is useful to attract mates. But doesn't it also attract predators?” However some animals such as spiders, butterflies, frogs and toads have what we call “beautiful colors” but they actually repel predators by telling them that these creatures are poisonous.
There is confusion in the terminology. "Intelligent design" does not need to be rescued from the politics of religion because it is a nonsensical conception. It is high time to abandon “Intelligent Design” altogether. If you are to defend Teleology do not confuse it with Intelligent –Design which is a fundamentally totally different concept. It doesn’t do Teleology any good.
Let fundamentalist Christians hijack the whole notion of intelligent design and let them tare genuine scientific issues with the stain of religious prejudice. They will go the route of the Dinosaurs because they are obsolete.
No credible scientific theory has answered your dilemmas. That is because you are not focusing on the right issues in all due respect.
To say that DNA "pursued the path of intelligence” is a leap of faith not a leap of proof. Current evolutionary theory in general can't be proved experimentally, but neither can Teleology’s. You seem to jump from a presumption of “Apparent Design”, which is but a subjective assumption, to a theory of Intelligent Design which is fundamentally different in its dogma. Darwinian Theory is not meant to explain life, only the fact that it evolves. I agree that Darwin's theory of evolution is ten or twenty steps higher than subatomic physics on the chain of knowledge, and Darwin and does not need to fill in any of the previous steps. So it's no wonder that Darwinism succeeded.
As for Darwin we at least agree that “Darwin tries to explain the body” and that “the mind-body problem still awaits a solution as well”. And, “We might as well keep going and see if the mind is susceptible to explanation as well”. But it’s not by joining the ranks of religionists because they are “a poor representation of the notion that there are invisible realities”. The “entire field of quantum physics and thousands of years of philosophy” are not the entire field of geology, biology, zoology, physiology or ‘evolutionary science’ as you want to call it.
There are not “two sides in the current public debate”, there are many sides but one must be clear on what concept one is defending. We must give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Yes each side has its “share the same obstacle—prejudice”. “The religionists must protect their preconceived idea of a God who resembles a human being” because their livelihood depends upon it. “Scientists must protect materialism and its denial of consciousness (i.e., everything can be explained without bringing in consciousness at all)” because it is an objective tool for the exploration of natural phenomena and not a means of explaining Why.
“These prejudices are powerful, but I have tried to separate myself form both”.
I am sorry but at this point you have only blended your theory of Teleology with that of Intelligent-Design and by doing so you have inherited the same prejudices it carries.
Yes “God may be (admissible subjective premise) the pinnacle of a natural continuum, beginning at the subatomic level, of a pervasive organizing intelligence. The difficulty here is not that this proposition is preposterous but that it is hard to know how to test it, or even what criteria should be used.” Here again in your own words you admit that this premise or theory is objectionable simply because it has a weak experimental foundation.
I too would “desire to see an adequate theory emerge that will include the origin of consciousness. This is really the missing link, if there is one.” And yes, “what we need, therefore, is an explanation that can fill in the missing. And yes “It's undeniable that life will only be understood as part of a Theory of Everything.” But what makes you think that “Science will not arrive at a Theory of Everything”? Richard Dawkins already alludes to an Einsteinium religion of sorts because Einstein was working on a universal theory of physics.
I wouldn’t say that “the answers given by religion are experimentally useless to science.” I would say that the answers of religion are obsolete and completely unfounded. And the fact that “the answers of science are fairly useless to religion” is because religion is the domain with irrationality and that science is the domain of rationality.
When you say, “I personally think that consciousness resolves more issues than either camp, and in my writings I have detailed why in careful, fair arguments” you do so from a completely different stand point than science and most institutionalized religions. It seems only logical then that you distance yourself from Intelligent Design which is identified with these institutionalized religions that “current news stories make it seem that "intelligent design" is non-scientific piffle, motivated by ulterior motives to preserve God and Jesus in the face of Darwin” as you say so well yourself.

Truly Yours,

Maurice Guy

Dear Dr Chopra,

I have not yet had the pleasure of reading this new book but I am looking forward to doing so. Before I can comment on it I would like to ask when your book on Intelligent Design will appear.
I hope you don't mind my making a few comments on your book to come rather than the one this one. There are some common traits it seems.
You raise some very interesting points but your “12 main issues”, are so specific that it would take a book in itself to properly answer your questions; and there are answers. Because I think the “essential issues” are different from your “main issues”, I will not linger in answering more than two of your issues as samplers.
If I understand correctly your own personal theory, it revolves around Teleology. This is the essential issue, is it not? In your own words: “Teleology is the notion that purpose underlies process. Evolutionary science thinks teleology is rubbish.” It will become respectable science once we ask a basic question: "How did human beings acquire purpose?" From our brains? Every process in the brain serves a purpose.”
I think that evolutionary science will consider Teleology as a respectable science when it can no longer criticize “it for having a weak experimental foundation and a wealth of assumptions”, as you said so well yourself.
When you say: ”If design doesn't imply intelligence, why are we so intelligent? It is mathematically elegant and appears to be a design that was suited for hundreds of totally unrelated functions in nature. Why do forms replicate themselves without apparent need? If the oxygen doesn't change physically--and it doesn't--what invisible change causes it to acquire intelligence the instant it contacts life? It would seem that Nature, to our embarrassment, simply struck upon a good idea, not a simple mutation. How can whole systems appear all at once?” On notices that what systematically becomes obvious is the fact that the word appears and seems return repeatedly. Appearances are not facts and are subjective not objective arguments. As for the impression that systems appear to be created all at once, may I humbly remind you that these “appearances” have taken in reality several million years to be achieved; if that is instantaneous to some it is because they have difficulty understanding geologic time.
As where competition with the “birds and the bees story” , the fact that some bees can not reproduce may well be one of those “useless mutations” that simply lingers on because it is after all of some use to the hive. As for ‘Beauty’ it is well known that it is in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t think that there is such a thing as absolute beauty (a well known topic of philosophy). If an Alien were to come to Earth with his wife, he may find her extremely beautiful while we may find her absolutely hideous. You say: “Beauty is everywhere in Nature, yet it serves no obvious purpose.” It may not appear to have a purpose and that could well be because what you are considering as beauty is not. You go on to say: “Once a bird of paradise has evolved its incredibly gorgeous plumage, we can say that it is useful to attract mates. But doesn't it also attract predators?” However some animals such as spiders, butterflies, frogs and toads have what we call “beautiful colors” but they actually repel predators by telling them that these creatures are poisonous.
There is confusion in the terminology. "Intelligent design" does not need to be rescued from the politics of religion because it is a nonsensical conception. It is high time to abandon “Intelligent Design” altogether. If you are to defend Teleology do not confuse it with Intelligent –Design which is a fundamentally totally different concept. It doesn’t do Teleology any good.
Let fundamentalist Christians hijack the whole notion of intelligent design and let them tare genuine scientific issues with the stain of religious prejudice. They will go the route of the Dinosaurs because they are obsolete.
No credible scientific theory has answered your dilemmas. That is because you are not focusing on the right issues in all due respect.
To say that DNA "pursued the path of intelligence” is a leap of faith not a leap of proof. Current evolutionary theory in general can't be proved experimentally, but neither can Teleology’s. You seem to jump from a presumption of “Apparent Design”, which is but a subjective assumption, to a theory of Intelligent Design which is fundamentally different in its dogma. Darwinian Theory is not meant to explain life, only the fact that it evolves. I agree that Darwin's theory of evolution is ten or twenty steps higher than subatomic physics on the chain of knowledge, and Darwin and does not need to fill in any of the previous steps. So it's no wonder that Darwinism succeeded.
As for Darwin we at least agree that “Darwin tries to explain the body” and that “the mind-body problem still awaits a solution as well”. And, “We might as well keep going and see if the mind is susceptible to explanation as well”. But it’s not by joining the ranks of religionists because they are “a poor representation of the notion that there are invisible realities”. The “entire field of quantum physics and thousands of years of philosophy” are not the entire field of geology, biology, zoology, physiology or ‘evolutionary science’ as you want to call it.
There are not “two sides in the current public debate”, there are many sides but one must be clear on what concept one is defending. We must give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Yes each side has its “share the same obstacle—prejudice”. “The religionists must protect their preconceived idea of a God who resembles a human being” because their livelihood depends upon it. “Scientists must protect materialism and its denial of consciousness (i.e., everything can be explained without bringing in consciousness at all)” because it is an objective tool for the exploration of natural phenomena and not a means of explaining Why.
“These prejudices are powerful, but I have tried to separate myself form both”.
I am sorry but at this point you have only blended your theory of Teleology with that of Intelligent-Design and by doing so you have inherited the same prejudices it carries.
Yes “God may be (admissible subjective premise) the pinnacle of a natural continuum, beginning at the subatomic level, of a pervasive organizing intelligence. The difficulty here is not that this proposition is preposterous but that it is hard to know how to test it, or even what criteria should be used.” Here again in your own words you admit that this premise or theory is objectionable simply because it has a weak experimental foundation.
I too would “desire to see an adequate theory emerge that will include the origin of consciousness. This is really the missing link, if there is one.” And yes, “what we need, therefore, is an explanation that can fill in the missing. And yes “It's undeniable that life will only be understood as part of a Theory of Everything.” But what makes you think that “Science will not arrive at a Theory of Everything”? Richard Dawkins already alludes to an Einsteinium religion of sorts because Einstein was working on a universal theory of physics.
I wouldn’t say that “the answers given by religion are experimentally useless to science.” I would say that the answers of religion are obsolete and completely unfounded. And the fact that “the answers of science are fairly useless to religion” is because religion is the domain with irrationality and that science is the domain of rationality.
When you say, “I personally think that consciousness resolves more issues than either camp, and in my writings I have detailed why in careful, fair arguments” you do so from a completely different stand point than science and most institutionalized religions. It seems only logical then that you distance yourself from Intelligent Design which is identified with these institutionalized religions that “current news stories make it seem that "intelligent design" is non-scientific piffle, motivated by ulterior motives to preserve God and Jesus in the face of Darwin” as you say so well yourself.

Truly Yours,

Maurice Guy

Dear Dr Chopra,

Sorry about the duplication. I think it came from the new sign in procedure which left me confused as to how many times I had posted my entry. Maybe you can delete one of the two.

I would like to comment on the Life After Death topic in general, having read some such research elsewhere.

•Experimental procedures outlined by a certain Constantine Raudive, pretend tape recording 'paranormal voices'— voices that cannot be heard when a tape-recorder is playing but which can be heard when the tape is played back.
•Many of the very short messages claim to be from loved ones who have passed on; they are responsive, use the experimenter's name and answer questions. You should know as well as I do that a claim of this sort has no admissibility in court. I could claim to be Jesus resurrected and who would believe me?
•Whether or not these experiments follow strict scientific procedures and have been duplicated under laboratory conditions by all kinds of researchers in many different countries, does not prove that these are the voices of deceased persons.
•“I noticed, says a certain Bander, the peculiar rhythm mentioned by Raudive and his colleagues ... I heard a voice .... the voice of my mother who had died three years earlier. Bander is letting himself be coxed into hearing what he already expects to hear. When he goes on to say that he BELIEVES this to be… this is not admissible evidence of any sort.
•Other statements to the order of; “I have done everything in my power to break the mystery” or “Voices have appeared on a tape that did not come from any known source” or “I can not explain what happened in normal physical terms” or “Thomas Edison believed” or “the work has been taken up by thousands of researchers in many countries” or “200 voices were received” or “Father Gemelli heard his own father's voice on the tape calling him” or “All that I have read and heard forces me to believe that the voices come from transcendental, individual entities” or “a voice giving its name as Gebhard Frei came through. the voice was identified by Professor Peter Hohenwarter of the University of Vienna as positively belonging to Dr Frei” or “a voice had manifested claiming to be that of a young naval officer who had committed suicide two years earlier” are not admissible in court, they are circumstantial and unsubstantiated, subjective hearsay.
•I am sorry to say that this type of science made up of this type of so-called evidence is far from being scientific at all.
•As for the number or names of people who seem interested or personally convinced, it is irrelevant and does not constitute in any way proof of anything. Millions of people have believed, including myself as a child, that Santa Clause really existed. The number of people who believe something is not proof of anything.
•From there many jump to the conclusion that “facts (that remain to be given) have made them realize that between death and resurrection (or any other supernatural phenomena) there is another realm of post-mortal existence (what type of existence is this?)”. There is “communication between those who live physically here on this earth and those who died and are now living in a different dimension”. By the way these are two conclusions all together different. One stipulates that there is a post-mortal realm (which does not mean after-life) and the other stipulates that this realm can communicate with us. Proving that there is some sort of mysterious communication with yet unknown origins does not necessarily prove that there is a realm.
•As for people who “remember” past-lives this is more inclined to prove re-incarnation more than some sort of after-life.
•Excuse me but do these “dead” people actually breathe, eat, sleep, and have a metabolism like ours? If they don’t then they are not alive and living and therefore there is no Life-After-Death. Or perhaps your definition of life is very different from that of science.
•To define life, a simple etymological definition out of a dictionary is disappointingly insufficient. One must compare it to inert or inorganic matter to better understand it. Inorganic matter like rocks, gases, liquids, which make up most of the universe are simple or complex collections of atoms and molecules obeying physical laws. Living matter is qualified as organic. What that means is that it is mainly made up of molecules of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen and Nitrogen based materials. It is called organic because it can only be found in or related to living “organisms”. In other words, if a space probe were to find organic material on another planet, there would be good reason to believe that some life forms were and may still be there. Living matter (or a living being) differs from inorganic matter by essentially three main traits. One, it uses oxygen (except for some cases of fermentation) to “burn” other organic materials and obtain the energy for its vital functions. These vital functions can be summarized in one word “Metabolism”. This is one of the most important traits of living matter. It can decompose organic material to obtain energy (catabolism) and with this energy build new living matter to grow and survive (anabolism). We can say that the fundamental difference between living things and non-living matter is that the former creates controlled chemical reactions to maintain a necessary equilibrium of its parts and functions. Non-living matter can only endure passively, natural chemical and physical variations. What is more, life functions demand certain very narrow variations of environmental conditions without which their chemical reactions cannot take place. For example, temperatures normally need to be between freezing and boiling of water in general. Though we cannot boil or freeze without dying, some bacteria can. The second trait is that of locomotion: many, but not all, living beings are capable of motion, if not locomotion (by the way plants can move in the direction of sunlight for ex.).
•The most important fact of all is that without reproduction there would be no Living beings on Earth today. No living individual being is eternal. Because of the nature of life, all individuals die sooner or later; it’s “death after life”. In order for a species to continue “being” the individuals of that species must produce new young. The corollary is that if a creature, even as small as a bacteria, were indeed immortal, it would have no need for reproduction. What is more, if it were immortal from the beginning of life on Earth, it would probably be asexual, that is to say without sex.

Very Truly Yours,

Maurice Guy