Hmmmm . . .

Very nice Desh! I definitely concur with Dr. Chopra: brilliant!

I will have to read this one again.

Excellent.

Peace

Interesting philosophical post Desh Kapoor.

But, the point is that it irritates me to no end when someone who has clearly never even integrated a wave function starts blathering nonsense about how "quantum physics says X."

Oh deary deary me....I think we ought to chip together a few dollars and buy Deepak a few reprints from Dover on Quantum Mechanics.

And yes, indeed, sigh. The New Age Ninnies have a tendency to throw in "quantum!" into everything as is seen in the latest series of arguments by
Deepak Chopra.

About the only good thing I can say is a) a lot of them are rich and b) it is very easy to get them to buy things.

and so they escaped into a world not bound by human language...

Desh has put forth what seems to support the idea that beliefs are instruments of the world of make believe, pure fabrication that provide infrastucture support for Illusions.

We do not need beliefs anymore, knowing is all that is required.

To experience without thought is truth.

"..it irritates me to no end when someone who has clearly never even integrated a wave function starts blathering nonsense about how "quantum physics says X.""

You know what's priceless? I'm not making this up. Back when I was taking undergraduate quantum mechanics, we comandeered an empty lecture room in the engineering building to study for a test. Inner products, BVPs and commutation relations were all over the board.

At the time there was this zealot of a new-ager who was in our building for the purposes of taking one of those quaint little math courses for general education, and who had also gotten into the habit of haraunging us for our reductionist ways passed the room and saw the formalism scrawled on the board.

She steps into the room, tirades about open systems, consciousness, complains about how we're worshiping some weird equations on the board, and some other nonsense before finally saying, and this is the best part, "You clearly haven't heard of quantum mechanics".

I still laugh out loud every time I think of that. Solid gold.

Dustin

I shouldn't let Deep DooDoo's woo-woo bother me but when I consider all the gullible Noo Agers who buy into his tripe, I lose whatever remains of hope I have for finding any evidence of "common" sense. Still, I stepped over to the HuffPo and, much to my delight, I saw that the readers of that site really took the guy to task for his whoppers. That was really refreshing. Then I noticed that every one of the posts had been tagged as "abusive"! Apparently it is abusive to disabuse deceptive fools of their foolishness.

Desh, thank you. Your clear post helped me understand much better in what way science is getting closer to the point where the rishis had arrived, and to my own conclusions which have almost driven my mind crazy :) The world is what I make it, and as "I" am just a collapsed wave, a possibility chosen by my illusory self, mind-stuff ... hehe... such freedom. Freedom to play. Thanks again, imaginary Desh :)

I'd pay to see a DeepThroat brought onto a talk show only to have the host ask him something like

"Derive the energy eigenvalues and eigenfunctions of the Hamiltonian of a one-dimensional infinite square well",

and then watch him sweat and flounder around as he fails to solve the easiest problem in all of quantum mechanics.

Or, since he seems to know so goddamn much about QFT, you could just ask him to prove the time reversal invariance of the Dirac equation or something.

Comedy gold, either way.

Dustin

A plain and simple truth may be that many scientists don't have a problem with the math and even applying it in the design of some systems or technology as it relates to quantum mechanics.

Many scientists I suspect find it very uncomfortable and even disturbing to apply quantum mechanics and it's associated ramifications to our "real" world experience.

Well, like Descartes, Chopra's trying to get to "I think, therefore God is." And, like Descartes, he's failing miserably and looking like a fool for doing so.

Unlike Descartes, he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about. At least when Descartes tried to prove God, no matter how wrongheaded and roundabout his methods, he did it with methods that he understood.

Hilarious, isn't it...

"you think you are a real interpreter of quantum mechanics who's pissed at someone who's making money, therefore you think you are"

"I think he looks like a fool, therefore I exist"

lolololol.... I think I'll have to stop laughing or I will think myself into coma....

Well, Phoenician, you'll have to keep experiencing until you find out, won't you...

Okay, okay, I'm out of here...

I've never laughed so hard reading all these posts! Why don't we all request Chopra and tell him to become a New Age stand-up comic? He would make even more money and entertain instead of confuse!

Mary Jones Janet

I am not a physicist and will make no pretense to thouroughly understand this complex subject matter. Philosophically, it seems Determinism makes no allowance for the significant existence of chance in its view of reality. So this was a really big change in scientific history when quantum theory came along and proved that chance does exist and plays a significant role in physical reality.
Now I am one of those who think both God and evolution can co-exist. You've heard the old saying about people living in glass houses and throwing stones, and that would apply to me in this circumstance. It doesn't make alot of sense for me to be castigating somebody else about randomness when my own thinking allows for alot of it to operate as well.
I've been following this discussion for several weeks now and I have very few clues from the comments as to what exactly the Dawkins proponets think. Are they Determinists? Who can tell? All they do is talk trash and whine that their views are mis-represented by Deepak. From what I can tell, if anything Deepak has been rather generous in describing their views, and also in allowing them a BIG soapbox to talk to some people outside their regular little club. In that respect they have really done themselves a disservice by the almost total failure to express themselves in any coherent fashion. What a shame.
I guess they were afraid of what we might've said. Well, kids, you can't make an omelet standing outside in the yard. If you really, really wannabe a cook, you gotta step into the kitchen at some point and engage the human race on its own terms.

Thank you Desh for your clear explanation that even someone with no scientific background like me can understand :)

I remember an observer who wrote a book about the "Homo Ludens", the playing human: Johan Huizinga. Learning in a playful way. Hereunder a playful story:

HOMO LUDENS versus EGOISTIC SURVIVOR.
Published by Jan Bletz on the Internet in the Dutch language.

Of course there is a heaven. And of course Charles Darwin was admitted there after he died. He did perhaps tackle the biblical story of creation with his evolution theory, but God is merciful. And so it happened that Darwin sat at a table one day with some persons speaking about this subject. The persons were Karel van het Reve (well educated in Slavic culture, a publicist, anti-Darwinistic), John von Neumann (nuclear scientist, founder of the game theory) and Johan Huizinga (one of the most well-known Dutch historians). It is now 65 years ago that Huizinga wrote his Homo Ludens and this is the reason for the unearthly discussion between the celestial table companions. Which value has still to be attached to the ideas Huizinga formulated in 1938?

Darwin: The Homo Ludens of Huizinga has reached the pensionable age. That is, if he has not already died, something that seems very likely to me. Because life is not a game, or it should be a “survival game”: a competition in which the “most fit” survive. That is not only true for nature, read my work if you wish. It is also true for the human as has been proved by many social darwinists, psychologists and economists.

Professor Huizinga wrote in old-Dutch sentences that I really like to quote: “When one considers the form, one can, summarizing, call the game a free act, that, as “not seriously meant “ and standing outside the normal life, is conscious, that nevertheless totally can engross the player, to which no direct material interest is connected or from which no usefulness can be gained, that happens within a deliberately determined time and space, that takes place according to certain rules and that gives birth to community spirit that happily surrounds itself with secrecy or else by disguise in another way accentuate the normal world.

Huizinga: And so it is. One can deny seriousness, but not the game.

Darwin: But in reality “free act” is out of the question; my first drawback against my eloquent opponent. The human is a vehicle of his genes, they determine his behaviour. He cannot want anything else than his genetic program describes: so he is as unfree as can be. And in that case there truly is “material interest or benefit” connected to the behaviour of the human. Cause the one that has adapted the most to his surroundings is rewarded for this. And with him the society. This at least is told by the classic economy (on which my work is based for the largest part), that highly praises the greedyness that pushes entrepreneurs to enter into the competition with other entrepreneurs and to strife for the favour of the customer. The genetically determined greed of the diligent, tradomg “homo economicus” leads to the fact that he not only becomes richer himself but that prosperity is created in his surroundings too.
So the “game” – the deadly serious competition between greedy people – has a very large “material interest or benefit”.

And then the “community connections”. I am inclined to look at life as a struggle of all against all, so do my symphatizers from the social sciences. A central point in my thinking is that every living being produces more offspring than are able to survive. So a lot of offspring has to fall off as companies can also go bankrupt. Whether animals or people: they are each other´s competitors. Community spirit is far away here.

Van het Reve: And herewith – we will come back to Huizinga in a little while – we have arrived at a very weak point in your theory. I do not have your ´Origin of Species` at hand right now, but if I remember well, you said that when only one really altruistic act could be found in nature, this would mean the death penalty for your theory. And there is plenty of altruism. Between kindred: people that take care for their children. Within societies: the workers in a beehive. Between different species: the fish of prey letting his teeth be brushed by a small fish. How do you reconcile all that with your idea of a ´struggle of all against all`?

John von Neumann: For an alpha like you, this is perhaps not so difficult to understand, but people that understand my game theory, if only a little bit, that egoism sometimes is disguished as altruism. That fish of prey letting his teeth be brushed by a small fish obviously does not act out of altruism but out of well understood own interest. The eating on a short term of the small fish is nothing compared with the gaining of healthy teeth in the long term.

And so you can imagine all kinds of situations in which parties start to work together on the basis of egoistic calculation that much looks like a social contract. And so there are people capable to sacrifice their direct interests to a cooperation that promises much benefit in the long run. Many neo-darwinists took this opportunity of a mutual beneficial economic game in order to prove that egoism does in no way have to lead to an unrelenting struggle of all against all and very well can be united with the liberal economy and ideology. Subject to the leading into the right track by laws and definitions. I would almost say: by rules of play. After all the “Homo Ludens” is the subject of our conversation.

Van het Reve: And in this way Darwinian game rules are widened in order to not have to let go of the idea of life as a ´struggle for existence`. While that is the most obvious. Because the progress from less towards more complicated forms of life is not explained by it. A worm species has just as much adapted as every other existing species: otherwise the worm had already long time ago died out. Yet the worm has evolved further and higher forms of life have developed. Some creatures not always appeared that much viable as their ancestor, the worm – think of the Dodo (I think I have read that he descended from the worm, although I do not know where). Other creatures have qualities that have developed so strongly that they overshoot their mark, darwinistically spoken - look, there again goes a dog running much quicker than necessary to avoid his ennemies or catch up with his quarry. And then there are plants and animals with qualities that do not matter at all but are not that harmful that the species becomes extinct, think of the many exotic species of butterflies, with the extraordinary coloured imprints on their wings.

I understand though. The Darwinistic vision of nature and society has been promoted by the human inclination to want a remarkable, impressive, interesting phenomenon to have a cause that is in the same order of importance as the phenomenon in itself. One probably knows the saying: ´small causes have big consequences`, but one only uses this saying in daily life. The science of history has, so to say, aimed at proving that the nose of Cleopatra has NOT been of influence on the world history. Just imagine something as important as the world history and then something as inane and accidental as that nose. One then rather takes the grain prices in Alexandria, or something else that one at a certain moment things immensely important. That a lark would sing just like that, because he accidentally started once with it, that is not possible. While that might be possible. Not everything needs to have a meaning, a function or a use. Some things are meaningless – they are, to stay within the spirit of this gathering, no more than an occupied little game. And this takes us back to the Homo Ludens again. Huizinga did not envision it that bad.

Huizinga: But then you did not totally understand my work. Indeed, a game does not provide a direct material advantage. But, as said: a game truly is beneficial to the community spirit. See for yourself: you play games with your family, friends and acquaintances as a sort of social activity. If there was not a bond already present, then it will develop as yet. And if the bond was already there, it is only strengthened by the game. I would rather go one step further: power of imagination and creativity that are abundantly at hand in the game, sometimes lead of course to material progress. Cause they lie at the base of the scientific discoveries and the technical developments – and those might naturally have social ´use` or ´benefit`.

Only condition is that the human enjoys himself; that he can let his free spirit go anywhere. When I would be still alive now, I would talk about the ´fun factor`, but that word did not yet exist in my time. In “Homo Ludens” I therefore stick to this sentence: “ This irreducible quality has never been expressed that striking for our modern feeling of language than in the English word ´fun`”.
That fun is missing in our modern society quite a lot. The process of industrialization has had large consequences for the culture. The compulsory structures of the production process have influenced the society in such a way, that culture has been taken over by it. The “matter rules, the spirit has been banished to the surface”, like I expressed this in my study about America: ´Human and Mass`. With as a consequence: apathetic workslaves and a society revolving arount its own egoism and materialism.

Von Neumann: Beautifully spoken, but total rubbish. You can also play on your own, amuse yourself. And as far as the social meaning of the playing human is concerned: never ever has humanity been that inventive as in the past decennia, and then even especially in America, where, according to you, ´the spirit` has been banished… And then I am not talking merely about my own contributions to the science and technology. The progress can easily go on without the creative input of the Homo Ludens.

Huizinga: I give up, I cannot handle that much analytic force. You are right, there is nothing left anymore of my arguments. But I have as yet one argument why the pensioned Homo Ludens does not have to see his grave for a long long time. Even better, you give me another idea. As you say: the game is not always a social happening; one is able to amuse himself. But many people are bored when they are alone, they are probably not capable to draw on their imagination.

While every possibility is there at the moment and for some people it really is a must. In the meantime we have reached such a high level of prosperity, that we could easily try to live a bit less stressful: work less and enjoy more of our free time. A Homo Ludens is capable of doing that like no other. And then there is the group of people that do not have a job anymore, too old, on disability, not enough education, you name it. These people have lots of time. A Homo Ludens surely knows how to fill in that time. Socially he does not mean anything anymore because he is unemployed, but he has the time of his life. The Survival of the
WEAKEST, as you please, mr. Darwin.

Published in 2003

Dr. Chopra, empyrius, David, Aurora, Richard, and Mieke: Thanks for the encouraging words!

I believe that the conclusions from both mystics and scientists are so earth-shaking that we just aren't willing to look at them straight.. yet!

.. but then "truth" as Vedantists said was "Sanatan".. it was there before you knew it.. it is there when you know it.. it will be there when you did not know about it.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Great post, Desh!! great read; and very well done!

with loving kindness,
North

I wonder if God had it mind for only quantum physicists who also are Vedic scholars to understand the ultimate reality.

For the rest of us 6 billion... well we are on our own.

Thanks, I'm heartened,

Steve

Ambasteve:

I believe that you dont need to be a Quantum Physicist to use the conclusions of QP.. Thomas Edison did not know all about electricity before he created the bulb...

.. also you dont need to read the Vedas to know its essence. Those who wrote the Vedas .. never read them before they wrote it! Every person has a Veda in him/her.. we just have to search.

North: thanks so much, Ma'am!

Cheers,
-d.
drishtikone.com

Contrary to popular "belief" we cannot see objects.

Take the "yellow" flower example that has been discussed.

There is no such thing as a yellow flower. This is a good example of how some are fooled by appearances.

A so called yellow flower consumes certain wavelengths of light originating from a light source of course. A so called yellow flower does not consume the yellow wavelength of light which is rejected as a waste byproduct of the consumption of whole light.

Therefore the yellow flower actually contains no yellow at all.

In fact you cannot see the flower, all you can see are it's effects on a light source.

So what we see is encoded light not the actual object.

there is a deeper revelation lurking here.

Hello Desh and Everyone,

Ambasteve writes,"I wonder if God had it mind for only quantum physicists who also are Vedic scholars to understand the ultimate reality."

Since we are all a manifestation of the "ultimate reality" we all have the capability to understand it, know it and feel it. Maybe, not in scientific or vedic terms but it is available in whatever terms "you" choose to lead you to it, after all, the understanding lies within each of our consciousness.

Asking the simple question Who Am I, can take you there.

Most people, I think, do not believe they are capable of knowing or understanding the "ultimate reality" because of simple conditioning, whether it is religious or cultural and they choose to not search beyond their conditioning, for, whatever reasons, satisfaction or believing there is nothing more to know about their own emergence on this earth, and do not continue to wonder, at all, or try to answer, for themselves the questons.

have a great day all..peace ruth

Hi Desh,
It is so nice to see your picture and to read your post!
With love,
~ Kate

Everything Except God Is Nonsense, a poem

WHAT SAYS THE GURU OF OUR GURU

"... distinction between ignorance and knowledge is unreal and verbal. There is neither ignorance nor even knowledge! When you cease to see knowledge and ignorance as two distinct entities, what exists, alone exists."

~ Vasistha, the Vedic guru of our new age guru, in Vasistha Yoga.
***

There's no knowledge
Nor is their ignorance.
How can between them, then
There be any difference?

Both are unreal
Both are verbal --
Words you make
Floating in space.

But when you cannot see
Knowledge -- you're unintelligent;
And you cannot see ignorance --
You're an absolute lost nut case

Then what is in you,
Exists, alone exists --
God's grand magnificence --
His qualia quale essence.

Everything except God
Is unreal -- all nonsense.

whitewings.sulekha.com

Wrong Richard. Let me correct you.

Descartes: "I think, therefore I am."

Chopra: "I am, therefore i think."

Suresh

The ego is notorious for it's attempts at obfuscation in it desire for self preservation, through denial of the knowing, that it is a ephemeral side effect of quantified consciousness.

Richard thomas,
It is much more to the Yellow flower.If one is not paying complete attention to the flower or looking becomes a habit,the predictive memory in the brain projects the flower.That is why people who are initially fascinated with an object become disinterested slowly because now they are just seeing it from memory and so there is no physical contact or relationship with the object.

Thanks for sharing with me your views on Quantum Mechanics and Vedanta. The subject and discussions are indeed very fascinating. I have been reading Raja Yoga and amazed by deep insight yogis had had on metaphysics. That Vedanta validates these immutable laws of nature rather than shrouding them in dogma is proof that one can realize truth and become rational by gaining consciousness. This is not so well understood by the 'religious'. Religion in itself, as we seen is being practised, is in a degenerated state rife with myth, superstition, fear of the unknown or complete fanatism. In that perspective, I feel happy that there is discussion around the topic and hope that your blogs would draw the much needed attention from the ignorant and the religious.

prabhakar,

I totally agree based on direct experience. I have found that my brain will correct spelling errors such that I don't first see that they exist. In other words my brain is projecting like you say.

As for projection and "reality", what is "out there", that is whole other area we haven't much touched on. I am still exploring the dynamics of projection and filtration, and perhaps they are one and the same.

I discovered by accident an very interesting phenomena in the 80’s the kind that sends chills up the spine.

Two other subjects tested it and experienced the same phenomena and results.

The ability to create an external object and control it with the mind.

I will publish it soon.

Hi Desh,
Nice to see your post. I hadn't been on intent for the past couple of days, and I got this email fwd by a friend in India this morning, as it turns out you are an alumni of her college..Institute of Rural Managment - and she fwd me the IRMA-alumni email about this post. I thought it was a pretty interesting coincidence, so had to mention it.

Rajesh Hariharan, I love that last line of thought..

the thought comes to mind...

When we move beyond scientific and religious dogma produced by the ego, the full potential of human civilization will be unleashed.

We now know meditation produces hyper-neurons which host brain-wide quantum states producing higher consciousness and advanced intelligence.

I have been experimenting for about 12 years with using auditory stimuli via the superior olivary nucleus and the frequency-following response of the brain to manipulate brain states normally achieved through years of meditative practice.

I developed one program that resets sodium / potassium ratios in the brain which occurs during certain dominant theta waves.

The US Department of Defense and several other units in the military purchased it from me and use it to what capacity I do not know.

It allows the completion of a complete sleep cycle in a short time which actually varies based on other factors. It is not recommended for long term use because there are other systems in the body that do need the time at rest.

You can click my name for more info if anyone is interested.

brain.web-us.com/binaural.htm

"There is only one conclusion: The only Reality is Brahman. The rest of us including our supporters and our critics and we are ourselves are part of the delusion!" ~Deepak Chopra

Dr. Chopra, here's a thought experiment:

Read these quotes by Jiddu Krishnamurti:

"OUT of confusion, you invent something permanent - the Absolute, the Brahman or God."

"GOD is invented by man. I am sure that you won't like this. But you are attached to that concept: God exists."

"We have invented GOD. The thinking created god for itself. That means due to unhappiness, fear and depression we created something called god. God did not create us after his imagination, I wish He had'"

"Truth is a pathless land"

"WE never give up all our BELIEFS; we never give up all the formulas, and the things that we have learnt from books, and from teachers. We are never, inwardly, at any moment simple. We are never, at any moment, not asking or not seeking.....Only when there is no Hinduism, no Islam, no Buddhism, no Christianity, can there be peace...."

...then read what Dawkins actually says in "The God Delusion"

...And then Read again your five part refutation.

...And then read all the comments taht fllowed.

See it for yourself.

If you do this then you have made a great stride to overcome your ignorance.

"OUT of confusion, you invent something permanent - the Absolute, the Brahman or God." ~JK

An insightful poem:

YOU ARE FREE IN TOTAL FREEDOM

" The whole struggle is between the result of the environment, with which mind identifies itself and becomes the "I", between that and environment. After all, the "I", the consciousness with which the mind identifies itself, is the result of the environment.

~ J. Krishnamurti in Total Freedom
***

The mind's made of the
Elements of the environment
With which it interacts - studies -
And identifies itself as "I".

So the struggle goes in
The gurus' minds:
How can it be?
Mind can't be free?

But the pee-wee brains
Of the gurus fail to
See this clearly:

That inert matter in the right
Environment can interact,
Making building blocks for the
Complex macro-molecules
Giving rise to life, aware of
Itself with consciousness.

You don't need God.
You don't need consciousness
In dead matter to be consciousness
Yourself to study matter - dead or alive.

In total freedom you are free.

~white wings

http://tinyurl.com/yjadxt

Durga

Dear Desh,

Was just passing by and am glad this post of yours caught my eye. A very lucid article indeed. Sometime back someone here (was it Patty? I don't remember) had posted a video link here which showed that since everything we see, touch, hear, smell or feel are sensory images formed inside the brain, nothing really exists. Reality is just a perception. So, who is the one that perceives? Certainly not the brain since the brain can also be taken out of the head and seen, felt etc. So, the answer to the eternal question, "who am I" is that I am the one who perceives.

I recommend everybody should see that video.

Cheers!
Navin

Dear Desh,
You sure have big forarms muscles, developed,
impressive,
respect,
but that mustache..;)
Dude..

That is soo.. ah, on some, looks good,

;)
Love, Passion,

HI Rajesh:
Thanks for your comments! I agree with 100% of it!

Nimita: Thanks! That is true - I am an alumni of IRMA.. :-)

Richard: That experiment sounds fascination.. will read more on that on your site...

Navin: Looong time no see!! Great to have you here..

....today's been super busy at work.. so I will read all the comments at length in the evening.. specially the discussion posted by Mieke...

until then.. cheers,
-d.
drishtikone.com

Marek:

Thanks for the praise.. but they are illusions as well ;-)

cheers,
-d.

Now, now, Desh..;),

In Poland, East European, chick..eeuh..ladies
they sure love a manly, tough,..
and appriciate..;)

Love, Passion,

Desh Kapoor:
Absolutely brilliant. I was struggling how to explain these facts to the skeptics and I guess I am relieved now and hence all the struggle has stopped...

Dear Desh

Brilliant isn't a good enough word, but I can't find anything that outclasses the word, as this article does. Answers.com gives: "glorious, gorgeous, magnificent, proud, resplendent, splendid, splendorous" -- well, maybe all these together would do.

Seriously, thank you for a truly superb article.

love, Heath

P.S. On the Desh - Marek - tough / muscles / mustache subthread topic, I hope the women of Poland like the warmth and humor visible in Desh's photo, too. Those forearms are impressive, but it's the spirit behind the eyes and smile that I like best.

Desh: Thanks for giving us the information and for

answering a few questions a bunch of us have had.

Between layman's books on physics and Vedanta there

is still a little space that doesn't want to be hemmed in.

I came to IB because of the close relationship

between the Vedas, the perennial philosophy and quantum theory.

The language barrier is closing and I am thankful

for those who have made English their second language

and do so with flair and majesty!(Including you.)

Deepak speaks of the big bang as if it were a historical event.

Does this jive with you? If so...well, anyway...

I'm now stuck on defining the soul/Atman, it's

eternal existence and when "somewhat" of a seperation occured.

If there is a divine spark of God inside each of us,

then is it the result of the first cause(fireball)

exploding into an infinite amount of sparks?

If so, then a need for the soul/Atman/spark to reincarnate

via fleshy, organic life-forms confuses me.

Is the soul/Atman also an illusion?

Or a point of reference whereby Awareness resides?

Do you agree with the "accidental bang" theory?

We are all looking for proofs for ourselves and our loved ones.

I tried to explain some of this over the holiday weekend

with my ex-Christian brothers and sisters-in-law.

But as they could obviously see...I'm not there/here yet.

Thank you ahead of time for filling me/us in, if you please.

I am interested, fascinated and bewildered but I'd

love to close the gap of understanding and join hands.

Hope you can help some more if time allows you.

Peace and cheers! Keith~

Our Brother Keithio Baptista speaks to Desh:

"The language barrier is closing and I am thankful

for those who have made English their second language

and do so with flair and majesty!(Including you.)" what an observation dude!

Hey Brother Keithio, u are having great trouble expressin' yourself in your own native language. Imagine tryin' that in Hindi or Urdu! Whoa!

gropin', no? hahaha!

P.S. I had a helluva time getting ready and going to work this morning.

Call it "pretending", to say the least, my motivation

just to get up and move made me feel like I was

definitly riding a thick, scrumptious "gravy train"!

I succumbed to compassion for my children and turned

my whole attention into "makin'a livin'" and puttin'

bread on the table...some concession.

Observation Without Thought

There is no feeling without thought; and behind thought is pleasure; so those things go together: pleasure, the word, the thought, the feeling; they are not separated. Observation without thought, without feeling, without word is energy. Energy is dissipated by word, association, thought, pleasure, and time; therefore there is no energy to look.

J. Krishnamurti

SmartOpinion: Thanks for the good words! Honestly, I face the same struggle.. and this post was born out of that struggle.

Heath: you make a dark guy like me blush a lot! Thanks for your praise!

Keith: I am someone like you exploring the questions too.. but I can just share what I think I believe in...

I know many have argued against the "convergence" of Vedanta and Quantum Physics in the same place.. with the line that it is wishful thinking and kind of forced convergence. Well, suppose if I wrote an article on Gandhi - and quoted remarks from Albert Einstein and Rabindranath Tagore.. would that be forced convergence of a scientist's and a mystic's viewpoint? The subject lends itself to such a convergence when two folks are referring to the same thing.

Vedantists and QP guys were talking of the same subject too. The "difference" between the two (Vedanta and QP) that you have referred to, Keith, is in my view - just that the Vedantists, when they discovered the "Truth" did not shy away from it under the veil of hard mathematical equations to keep iterating the physicality of the world! They went a step further - they embraced it and found the way to "use" that Truth to get out of Illusion!

Now, how it is exactly done is a good question.. and strangely, most of the "True knowers" of the Illusion never go to the EXACT STEPS to get there. They tell you the framework, if you will, and that it is possible.. and it is personal... and that's that! After being bewildered by this strange reluctance on their part, I now believe that the "step-wise guide" is not possible!! Anyone who even remotely suggests that he knows the way to Freedom and can teach you exactly.. does not know it! That is my litmus test...

Second, you have talked of the Big Bang and it being a historical event.. (eg: Vivekananda) say - such "historicity" and "event" are subject to space and time.. and Space and Time is Illusion! (while writing the above article I finally realized why it was an illusion - given the wave collapse) Now "outside" space and time, big bang is not a relevant "phenomenon I would reckon.. for if there was no time.. there would be no space.. and so no difference in energy or "movement" of energy.. isnt it?

As to why does Deepak Chopra refer to Big Bang.. I think that to explain the unknown - in our world we do need to take the support of the knowns that are around... and then leave you by putting together all the associations to make the final leap from the known associations to the unknown! I cannot speak for him, but that would be my take.

Reincarnation and Atman, to me is a difficult subject to comprehend but also something I believe is completely misunderstood! Here are the reasons why?

1. If you could draw a two axis on a page (X and Y).. and draw a line parallel to X Axis (above it - say at y=5) all the way to your right.. and if this line was an "atman" - and vertical lines at various intervals on X Axis, the "lives" - then if you were to look at this graph from below the X axis - you would find Multiple lives. But if you moved to the Y axis and looked at the line now.. you would just see one line... nothing has changed!!

2. What is Atman? When a person dies.. what changes and "goes out"? body is still there - the heart stopped but the body still remains there. Now is body was just a "mechanical" thing then there would be some way to put it back up and make it work.. wouldnt it? Afterall we can put back the most complex of space stations back up in space! So what really is amiss? If "God" was omnipresent.. then "He/It/She" would still be there in every inch.. right? So what is it that we could possibly say has "gone away"? I reckon that it is a potential energy, which in its kinetic "avatar" is called "Thoughts" goes on.

So what is thought? As I understood while writing the above post - it must be the Illusion in the mind of the "Cosmic Creator" Himself!

If that be so, then it could be said that "He" is "hallucinating" Himself.. and the reason for our creation!

But then as Vasistha says - when a wave occurs in the ocean it might seem to have been "created" and "destroyed" but then it was there was nothing that was "different" from the Ocean!

As the Quantum Theory says - Observation CREATES... non-observation just is. So, I sure hope that Old Man up there gets his act together soon! ;-)

Cheers,
desh
drishtikone.com

Hello,

Desh it is very interesting and i've printed it out so i can read it with highlighter and margin notes.You are getting into that league of writers by the time i truly understand the complete post the discussion moves on...It is very interesting the whole concept of knowledge percetion etc etc.

Like i'm still reading and re-reading Dr. Chopra's month back post and he has written 10 more blogs since then...

Desh: Thanks! That that was put together quickly...

is another one of those, that aren't, not really...

tricks of a mind that's not mine, words do make it seem silly.

J. Krishnamurti and David Bohn published a few of their discussions

from 1975 to 1982 in "Limits of Thought".

These guys did throw a monkey wrench into the scheme

just when I thought I was getting somewhere.

There seems to be some allowable leeway for interpretation

of all the "scriptures", and as many paths to God

as there are souls.

The hallucinations that we are in God's dream fulfill

the Will and Purpose of The Divine Plan to achieve

the illusion of a drama played out by me/you/her/us/IT.

Ahhh..."The Infinite Play", by R.T., I presume.

Could there be a need for The Play to perfect itself?

Oh, I do need a reason to get up every morning.

Darn attachments, anyway!

We cling to God instead of playing and get flicked
off

like a pesky flea to fend for ourselves.

.

Thanks again, Desh!

Keith:

Havent really read that book of Jk and Bohn but would get it soon..

I think all your questions are very interesting.. and that I guess really is the key to exploration..

... for me a question that I havent found any answer to is: If this is all an illusion and we are to "subside" or "collapse" anyway.. sooner or later.. then why do the "knowers of Truth" rush to get "Enlightened" and get away from it all? Aint that happenin' anyways?

Andaleeb: You are a sweetheart.. thanks for your lovely comments.. I am not sure if I am really worthy of your praise.. but thanks in anycase!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

"The New Age Ninnies have a tendency to throw in "quantum!" into everything" ~grumpy realist #5

.........

Quantum Quackery

“Quantum physics is claimed to support the mystical notion that the mind creates reality. However, an objective reality, with no special role for consciousness, human or cosmic, is consistent with all observations." Victor J. Stenger

Certain interpretations of quantum mechanics, the revolutionary theory developed early in the century to account for the anomalous behavior of light and atoms, are being misconstrued so as to imply that only thoughts are real and that the physical universe is the product of a cosmic mind to which the human mind is linked throughout space and time. This interpretation has provided an ostensibly scientific basis for various mind-over-matter claims, from ESP to alternative medicine. "Quantum mysticism" also forms part of the intellectual backdrop for the postmodern assertion that science has no claim on objective reality.

Romantic Interpretations:

“Not everyone has been happy with the conventional interpretation of quantum mechanics, which offers no real explanation for wave function collapse. The desire for consensus on an ontological interpretation of quantum mechanics has led to hundreds of proposals over the years, none gaining even a simple majority of support among physicists or philosophers.

Spurred on by Einstein's insistence that quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory, that "God does not play dice," subquantum theories involving "hidden variables" have been sought that provide for forces that lie below current levels of observation (Bohm and Hiley 1993). While such theories are possible, no evidence has yet been found for subquantum forces. Furthermore, experiments have made it almost certain that any such theory, if deterministic, must involve superluminal connections.

Nevertheless, quantum mystics have greeted the possibility of nonlocal, holistic, hidden variables with the same enthusiasm they show for the conscious wave function. Likewise, they have embraced a third view: the many worlds interpretation of Hugh Everett (Everett 1957).

Everett usefully showed how it was formally possible to eliminate wave function collapse in a quantum theory of measurement. Everett proposed that all possible paths continue to exist in parallel universes which split off every time a measurement is made. This has left the door open for the quantum mystics to claim that the human mind acts as sort of a "channel selector" for the path that is followed in an individual universe while existing itself in all universes (Squires 1990). Needless to say, the idea of parallel universes has attracted its own circle of enthusiastic proponents, in all universes presumably."

………

“Quantum mechanics, the centerpiece of modern physics, is misinterpreted as implying that the human mind controls reality and that the universe is one connected whole that cannot be understood by the usual reduction to parts.

However, no compelling argument or evidence requires that quantum mechanics plays a central role in human consciousness or provides instantaneous, holistic connections across the universe. Modern physics, including quantum mechanics, remains completely materialistic and reductionistic while being consistent with all scientific observations.

The apparent holistic, nonlocal behavior of quantum phenomena, as exemplified by a particle's appearing to be in two places at once, can be understood without discarding the commonsense notion of particles following definite paths in space and time or requiring that signals travel faster than the speed of light.

No superluminal motion or signalling has ever been observed, in agreement with the limit set by the theory of relativity. Furthermore, interpretations of quantum effects need not so uproot classical physics, or common sense, as to render them inoperable on all scales-especially the macroscopic scale on which humans function. Newtonian physics, which successfully describes virtually all macroscopic phenomena, follows smoothly as the many-particle limit of quantum mechanics. And common sense continues to apply on the human scale."

http://tinyurl.com/yytfdd

Maharishi Lagrangian:

http://maharishi-programmes.globalgoodnews.com/vedic-science/img/research/40-qual-lagrangian-large.gif

Hence God exists; respond!

maharishi-programmes.globalgoodnews.com/vedic-science/

O my Lord! Charlie Brown is brainwashing me with Christianity! Wow!

Peace

If we grant that we re all 'ONE non-dual Consciousness.' then we must also grant that while parts of our consciousness are encased within physical shells, our bodies, then the hope of a universal brotherhood of humankind is an unattainable ideal; b/c we would ceaselessly be hindered by our individuated knowledge and ignorance.

The only way this could possibly be overcome would be for a world-wide telepathic ability that would connect us all and not allow for secrets from the other, or, in the least, a world-wide movement that agreed upon a universal foundation for interaction amongst ourselves, such as:

A worldwide method of interacting with ourselves in which one part of the collective consciousness did not seek to profit upon another part of it's very self, for example, would a mother charge her child for a sandwich, or if a doctor broke his own leg would he charge himself money b/4 he fixed it. The point being, if we all did accept the fact that we all are in fact ONE, one mind, then the first thing ONE would do is eradicate division; after all, one divided by one is one.

If we were all one Richard Bronson would not be flying tourists into space while a newborn child and mother needlessly die in India as noted by Arand Shah in 'The Value of Human Life.'

So, we have only two possible ways a collective consciousness shall materialize in this physical world; 1) universal mental telepathy, or, 2) complete economic equality.

Hinduism has unjust caste based qualities to it. Judaism, while their religious texts abound with the recurring theme of uplifting the orphans widows and strangers, is rife with 'monetary compensations.' And Christianity, well, I do not even think they read what Christ said anymore to tell you the truth, let alone try to live by his words (so they take the easy out and just say we are born sinful creatures . . .).

For mind to overcome matter, we cannot have money on our ONE mind; we got much more pressing matters to attend to: disease, poverty, natural disasters . . .

There is a direct correlation between a newborn and growing baby to have to be taught not to be selfish and us ourselves being trapped by our physical bodies; and only when humankind as a collective consciousness defeats the IDEA of ownership, of mine, of selfishness, only then can we usher in a new age in the story of humankind!

Whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not, I swear, the only thing we need to collectively do is ‘sell all of our possessions and follow him.’ Money, possessions, or US!

We have had the key the whole time, and physically emulating Christ the Anarchist will set us free, from the real illusion (like that, the REAL ILLUSION), that has ever separated you and me, the thought we could own anything outside of our own bodies, b/c we do not even own these!

Capitalism is simply the apotheosis of greed, and the common American can no longer even afford to tell the difference, they have been too brainwashed into thinking ‘socialism’ has to have a centralized government. Not in this day and age, sorry, everybody can be the government, and we could have a representative government that will be as open and accountable as a glass house, but not with money.

It is basically the same in every nation on this planet, the rich and powerful are either in the government, or aligned with the government, and they prey upon the poor and working-class! Just look at the medical, insurance, lawyers, and war-making industry in the United States alone!!!!

Alright now! Are we ready for that worldwide revolution that will uplift all of the poor and huddled masses that the Neocon Straussian rich boys have hijacked to suit their greedy ends (and the democrats are noooo different!)!

Peace

Empyrius:

lets look at your question again... I guess your question - at the heart of it - is .. "Is Equality Possible?".

Is it indeed possible... for *any* part of the the Universe to be completely equal to all others - EVERYTHING should need be equal. Which means - no high, no low; No man, no woman; no matter no energy.. no good no evil.. because even if ONE sense of Duality exists - others will automatically manifest!

In that case, Empyrius, Duality within the creation will remain... in fact.. that is what "empowers" and sustains this creation. If all was equal - in our eyes and perception - then creation would cease! We would be "out of Illusion"..

.. in a sense THAT is what the ultimate dream of "seekers" is! So, in my view, EQUALITY exists outside of Illusion, and EQUILIBRIUM between Dualities exists within the Illusory world.

cheers,
-d.
drishtikone.com

"..then why do the "knowers of Truth" rush to get "Enlightened" and get away from it all? Aint that happenin' anyways?" ~Desh

A true teacher of vedanta can direct one in the path of self realization.

"O my Lord! Charlie Brown is brainwashing me with Christianity! Wow!" ~empyrius

If you dig deeper they have the same truths of hinduism.

St John of the Cross

"The radical remedy lies in the mortification of the four great natural passions, joy, hope, fear, and grief. You must seek to deprive these of every satisfaction and leave them as it were in darkness and the void. Let your soul therefore turn always:

"Not to what is most easy, but to what is hardest;
"Not to what tastes best, but to what is most distasteful;
"Not to what most pleases, but to what disgusts;
"Not to matter of consolation, but to matter for desolation rather;
"Not to rest, but to labor;
"Not to desire the more, but the less;
"Not to aspire to what is highest and most precious, but to what is lowest and most contemptible;
"Not to will anything, but to will nothing;
"Not to seek the best in everything, but to seek the worst, so that you may enter for the love of Christ into a complete destitution, a perfect poverty of spirit, and an absolute renunciation of everything in this world.

"Embrace these practices with all the energy of your soul and you will find in a short time great delights and unspeakable consolations.
"Despise yourself, and wish that others should despise you;
"Speak to your own disadvantage, and desire others to do the same;
"Conceive a low opinion of yourself, and find it good when others hold the same;
"To enjoy the taste of all things, have no taste for anything.
"To know all things, learn to know nothing.
"To possess all things, resolve to possess nothing.
"To be all things, be willing to be nothing.
"To get to where you have no taste for anything, go through whatever experiences you have no taste for.
"To learn to know nothing, go whither you are ignorant.
"To reach what you possess not, go whithersoever you own nothing.
"To be what you are not, experience what you are not."
"When you stop at one thing, you cease to open yourself to the All.
"For to come to the All you must give up the All.
"And if you should attain to owning the All, you must own it, desiring Nothing.
"In this spoliation, the soul finds its tranquillity and rest.
Profoundly established in the centre of its own nothingness, it can be assailed by naught that comes from below; and since it no longer desires anything, what comes from above cannot depress it; for its desires alone are the causes of its woes."

Saint Jean de la Croix, Vie et Oeuvres, Paris, 1893, ii. 94, 99, abridged.

I don't think awareness can escape the wave nature of the universe, so you will never escape experience, even if it is of nothing, or some cosmic orgasmic sensation.

Here is my twist on an old meme

Before enlightment pay bills, after enlightment pay bills. Why rush to go anywhere you have the best seat in the house, always.

Higher Consciouness is "self" replicating

in fact it "self" replicates throughout the infinite potential universe...it courses through the veins of the Internet.

Seems Moses "was given" one commandment... then there were ten... now we've got libraries of them

Most people believe that salvation comes from the 'good minds' with a good education, a moderate level of childhood trauma, an ease to evolve in the modern world and grasp its challenges, who had ample space and rest to think and meditate, then when they invest the right physical resource and manpower they have a chance to correct the bad turn this world has taken...

... but it doesn't seem to work that way, the beauty, peace and harmony they propose is rapidly corrupted...

... maybe the best solutions will be proposed by people who have gone through hell, who have fought an addiction for years, battled against cancer or aids, been persecuted in jails and asylums, been ridiculed or ignored when they speak...

... but before the world gives them a chance to be heard, it will have itself to go through hell to value what strength and lucidity can be achieved in extreme human situations where comfort and entertainment make no sense but just the gasp for this next one breath counts...

... the complete mortification of the incarnated soul, nothing can be renounced anymore, then urgency cannot turn to anything but peace and silence, no other goal makes sense. In the absence of discipline and renunciation we have proven as a species, pampered, selfish brats.

Don't Know

By Zen Master Bon Soeng

When Emperor Wu asked the great monk Bodhidharma "What is the highest meaning of the holy truths?", he answered, "No holiness is clear like space." The dialogue continued with Emperor Wu asking "Who is facing me?" Bodhidarma answered with a resounding "DON'T KNOW."

Bodhidharma's don't know has echoed down the ages from generation to generation, teaching us the truth of this very moment. Do you understand Bodhidharma's don't know? This don't know undercuts all our conceptual ideas about life. Everything is turned upside down, and we don't understand anything.

This not understanding anything is fundamental to finding our true nature and helping all sentient beings. When we can let go of our habitual world view suddenly the truth of this very moment opens up before us. Our desires, opinions and ideas serve to blind us from seeing the truth of this moment. How often does anger prevent us from seeing a situation clearly? Doesn't desire stop us from honestly dealing with others? We live moment to moment trying to protect this thing we call I and to literally destroy anything that threatens it. Even when I think it is being compassionate this is usually just a strategy to get what it wants.

Bodhidarma's don't know stops this process in its tracks. Don't know cuts off everything; ideas, opinions, conditions, knowledge and beliefs. Then, we can believe what we see in this moment. Then, our anger doesn't blind us to the needs of others. In this moment there is no I to protect and enhance. There is no I to horde or contract. Without making anything, helping all beings is possible. In this moment how to act and what to do is clear. So Bodhidarma has already mapped the way to liberation. We don't need to understand anything else. We don't need to become anything special or be any particular way. Our practices of bowing, chanting, sitting and kong-ans are designed to point us to this moment. Every day this practice helps us let go of our idea of self and perceive our true nature. Retreats help to intensify this practice and integrate don't know deeply into our life. This great effort is needed because our karma is so strong. For years and years we have built up this I. Great effort is needed to establish this don't know as the foundation of our lives.

Copyright © 1996 Zen Master Bon Soeng

Good answer Desh. Excellent 'stuff' there oldtimer; excellent (especially 60, I am down with that one, can I be Elijah)! Yes, it seems I have heard that 'pay the bills' meme often Richard (after the electricity got shut off of course :)). Indeed BL, indeed! Nice nukeofnirvana!

Well, it seems then we are hopelessly condemned to perpetual wars, social injustice, disharmony, etc., as long as this world persists anyway . . .

Exploit or be exploited, or hope to become a social worker (which I cannot) to 'help' others, or just wash dishes for somebody and help myself. Yeah . . .

Well, I was disqualified from really being able to do any good, and I am not much up to working for 8 dollars an hour (and after garnishment make that about 4) . . .

So anyway, good discussion brothers; and you wrote and excellent post Desh.

Peace

This post is a clear indication of the author's lack of knowledge of Physics. I wish spiritual gurus keep away from science.

This post by Desh and all the comments were my alarm clock

this morning...my heads still spinning...don't know...

exactly!

Virtues seem to have been thrown out, and math replaces it?

Physical laws of big objects follow different rules.

Is this illusion worth fixing?

Does our desire to suffer manifest the poor and hungry?

"God is love" makes no sense when I think super-small.

Karma really has nothing to do then with "good" or "evil".

The observation alone breeds humility, don't know...

works for Me2! Free-falling in love, Keith~

Dear Desh,

This was a great write up, though left me a bit confused on the technical stuff... Wonder how quantum theory is going to prove that the entire universe is but a sound created by the basic notes of A-O-M...everything in the universe is a combination of these three sounds....we all are but a configuration of these three sounds....the sounds of Brahma- the creator...the string theory(whatever little I know about it..) seems to be heading towards this..but...

"I wish spiritual gurus keep away from science."

just as self-assured scientists should stay away from Religion and Spirituality?

-d.
drishtikone.com

"This post is a clear indication of the author's lack of knowledge of Physics." ~Krish

This post carries not only a lack of knowledge in physics but also a lack of knowledge in philosophy and spirituality. Since the author says that this post was borne out of an intellectual struggle…this is even more redolent.

Reddy

“I wish spiritual gurus keep away from science.” ~Krish

That is a good wish to have. But as you know they will not stop exploiting anything that gives a false sense of reassurance. They not only fool others but first they fool themselves.

“….just as self-assured scientists should stay away from Religion and Spirituality?”

Scientists do science when they do science. If they explore Religion or spirituality they still don’t abuse science. Here’s the difference quantum spiritual guru’s (who are not physicists by profession) “abuse” science.

Ref #61

Did bodhidarma mean Bodhidarma doesn't know, or did he mean I am this Not Knowing itself? All self knowing, all knowing is illusion. There is only this that can't be known.

This is a silly little post which doesn't even motivate me to take it on. This author doesn't have any idea about the philosophy of science.

"Maharishi Lagrangian.

Hence God exists; respond!" ~DD

Ahh, that looks like the work of the good Dr. John Hagelin. Dude is cracked beyond all repair. Ok, so you've seen meditating Yogis hopping around like epileptic frogs and calling it "levitation", right? See most people would naively assume that their little bouncing act was the result of muscular contraction. But Dr. John Hagelin is not so easily fooled! See, that hopping, according to John Hagelin, violates Newtonian laws of gravity. And that's ok, according to him, because the real reason that they can levitate is: Quantum Gravity!

So, not only did Dr. John Hagelin sleep through those lectures on parsimony, he evidently doesn't think there should be a principle of correspondence either. Maybe he was spending all of his time working on a "Faith and Reason" requirement to placate all of the uppity Christian benefactors of his snooty private school.

i think desh is saying that both dawkins and deepak are correct about god. the difference lies at the point one decides to describe or explain god.

though dawkins claims there is no god i believe that he knows that he is making this distinction for practical reasons; to distinguish empirical knowledge of god from conventional religions.

on a deeper level, whatever one wishews to call it, i think desh has described succintly where the rubber meets the road (collapse) when it comes to taking god out of subject-object mode (i.e. trying to describe god). can't be done.

the road source meets rubber source at the same point deepak also feels (knows) subjectively. but he will never find words for it because of the same collapse. he understands this too, as does dawkins, but his motives are much the same: to aid in enlightment for all...yet his is with humility thus more palatable.

this beautiful tapestry has been most eloquoently laid before us here, by mr. kapoor. it is in the purest form i've ever read.

Dear Desh,
The infinite contains the finite. From certain building blocks of materials - comes gazillion possibilities of creation, animate and inanimate. It's mind boggling!

The diversity and expanse of creation is so - awesome! 'Out there' in the galaxy, as well, as 'in here', within our own bodies, endless combinations, and interactions - that make up our unique look, outlook, and personality.

You say,
"When we approach any event with the baggage of the past knowledge, the meaning and 'actual' unfolding of that event takes on a predictable turn. This is not just a theoretically derived conjecture but experiential as well.

Awareness of the Illusions and not the Knowledge of an event should then be the closest it comes to recognising the 'Truth'."

'Past' knowledge is important and valuable when it comes to basic activities - like cooking, driving a car, speaking on a cell phone, typing on a computer keyboard, etc.

Past knowledge can be limiting or even damaging, when it's based on beliefs and rituals that have no life enhancing value to an individual or society, such as of war, poverty, corruption, etc.

I do agree,
'Awareness' of an event, without the emotions and judgements, which most of us employ (out of habit, and repetitive, unexamined thinking) is a kind of Freedom, that is not based on the past. Truth allows for what is. And in the life forms on earth and in galaxies beyond, so many billions of activities are going on simultaneously.

Truth is, I celebrate life as I have it now, and - when I do not 'attach' myself to the feelings flowing and changing in me, I come closest to the Awareness you speak of, but of course, transcends words. Awareness just Is.

Thanks again Desh for a great article.
I love your smile, and brawn :))
~ Kate

What about the Collapse of the Brain-wave?

“Consciousness causes collapse” is the theory that ‘observation’ by a ‘conscious’ observer is responsible for the 'wavefunction collapse’ in ‘quantum mechanics’. It is an attempt to solve the ‘Wigner's friend paradox’ by simply stating that collapse occurs at the first "conscious" observer. Supporters claim this is not a revival of ‘substance dualism’, since (in a ramification of this view) consciousness and objects are ‘entangled’ and cannot be considered as separate. The consciousness causes collapse theory can be considered as a speculative appendage to almost any interpretation of quantum mechanics and many physicists reject it as unverifiable and introducing unnecessary elements into physics.
It has been claimed that the theory meshes well with ancient Eastern mysticism and philosophy, including that of Buddhism which includes a belief in the transitory, interconnected nature of all things and the illusion of separation of thought and existence. This is one of the major themes of the book ‘The Dancing Wu Li Masters’. It also meshes well with the views of the ‘New Thought’ movement.

The view is also presented in the popular and controversial documentary What the Bleep Do We Know!?, alongside some unrelated biological discussions, and is a major plot point in Greg Egan's novel Quarantine, as well as playing a significant role in Charlie Stross's novel The Atrocity Archives.

Proponents:

"Esse est Percipi": The idea of consciousness somehow being related to the creation of reality was first proposed by Bishop Berkeley. With the publication of Die Mathematische Grundlagen der Quantenmechanik, it was Von Neumann however who became the first person to hint that Quantum theory may imply an active role for consciousness in the process of reality creation. His followers Fritz London, Edmond Bauer, and Eugene Wigner carried Von Neumann's argument to a claimed logical conclusion that consciousness-created reality is the inevitable outcome of Von Neumann's picture of quantum theory.

Among other names that have expressed the belief that a deep connection exists between mind and quantum matter are Henry Stapp, Freeman Dyson, and Roger Penrose. Among the more recent followers one can find physicists Evan Harris Walker, Fred Alan Wolf, and Amit Goswami. However, none of these recent supporters hold any current positions at a reputable academic institution.

Criteria for consciousness:

The process of "measurement" in quantum mechanics is regarded to as consciousness itself. However, it is not explained by this theory which animals, living creatures, or objects have consciousness, that is, the power to collapse the wavefunction. It is also not clear whether measuring devices might also be considered conscious, though generally measuring devices are considered simply a "chain of observations" that only ends at a conscious entity. Some even suggest that some beings have a "higher consciousness" and therefore more capability to collapse the wavefunction, whereas others believe all conscious entities have an equal capability. Others believe that "higher consciousness" is inherent in all, but some have tapped into it more fully.

Quantum immortality:

Assuming that collapse of the wavefunction requires conscious observation suggests a curious type of immortality. Just prior to dying, a person necessarily loses consciousness; and an unconscious person cannot observe his death. Therefore, by the consciousness-collapse hypothesis, he does not register it. Moreover, by the ‘Copenhagan interpretation’, without registration the event is not personally experienced. Thus, in the ‘Schrodinger's cat’ experiment, although the outside observer may open the box to find a dead cat, the cat does not perceive himself as dead. Now lacking consciousness, presumably some subconscious aspect of his state lives on. Notice that this route to ‘quantum immortality’ does not require the ‘many-worlds’ interpretation. That is, it is immaterial 'where' the individual 'goes' after the event. The point is that in his frame of reference he remains alive, albeit in some presently unknown, subconscious state.

One can speculate a bit further. The conscious and the subconscious are two different levels of mental activity. Therefore, presumably the subconscious state of the 'dead' cat is incapable of communicating with the conscious states of other living organisms. Rather, if communication is possible at all it would seem more likely to be with their subconscious states.

http://www.answers.com/topic/consciousness-causes-collapse

Since this post is based on the theory quantum mind, this article from Answers.com should be useful for those who understand science and for those who want to explore further:

QUANTUM MIND

The quantum mind or quantum consciousness is a protoscientific hypothesis that posits a connection between consciousness, neurobiology, and quantum mechanics. There are many gaps in current understanding of how consciousness arises, to the extent that we are uncertain whether it is strictly from the functioning of the human brain or if awareness involves more of our nervous system and/or other aspects of our totality. Some believe that the approach of strict reductionism and materialism does not adequately explain perception, cognition, or free-will in sentient beings, although it does account for our intelligence. It could be argued that a strictly classical interpretation of the Physics and Neurobiology involved does not even admit the possibility of free-will, or would assert that it is illusory, and has no clear explanation for the phenomenon of conscious awareness. Accordingly; the quantum mind hypothesis claims that only quantum mechanics is capable of explaining conscious experience.
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Introduction

The exact nature of consciousness remains unknown. Many models of the mind view consciousness as computation among the brain's neurons but as yet have failed to describe an exact mechanism. Quantum processes in the brain have been invoked as explanations for consciousness and its enigmatic features. Some theories have been subjected to experimental tests, and evidence has been claimed that indicates that processes occurring in conscious and subconscious brain functions are best explained by Bohmian mechanics; however, these results have not gained wide acceptance.

Supporters of the quantum mind hypothesis argue that the brain should not be seen as simply a vast piece of organic clockwork, but rather as a subtle device amplifying quantum events; that quantum computation would surely be advantageous from an evolutionary perspective; and that biology has had four billion years to solve the decoherence problem and evolve quantum mechanisms.

The main line of argument may be summed up as follows: human thought is said to be sound, yet non-algorithmic (following Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem), and the human thinker is aware of the contents of these thoughts. Some say that the only recognized instances of non-algorithmic processes in the universe, based on accepted physical theories, are either purely random or the reduction of the quantum mechanical state vector. Randomness is not promising as the source of the non-algorithmicity needed to account for consciousness, therefore certain quantum mechanical phenomena must be responsible.
Critics deride this comparison as a mere "minimization of mysteries" (the term, coined by David Chalmers, suggests that since quantum and consciousness are both mysteries, they must be related) and point out that the brain is too warm for quantum computation, which in the technological realm requires extreme cold to avoid "decoherence" (i.e., the loss of seemingly delicate quantum states by interaction with the environment).

Some modern "New Age" writers have used the theory to support the belief that the human mind commands special powers - psychic forces - that transcend the material universe.

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Various quantum theories of mind:

Modulating quantum jumps

The first modern pioneer of this field was biologist Alfred Lotka, who in 1924 proposed that the mind controls the brain by modulating the quantum jumps that would otherwise lead to a completely random existence. However, the first detailed quantum model of consciousness was by a physicist, Evan Walker. In 1970 he proposed a synaptic tunneling model in which electrons can "tunnel" between adjacent neurons, thereby creating a virtual neural network overlapping the real one. It is this virtual nervous system that for Walker produces consciousness and that can direct the behavior of the real nervous system. In short, the real nervous system operates by means of synaptic messages while the virtual one operates by means of quantum tunneling.
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Bose-Einstein condensates

In 1989 the British psychiatrist Ian Marshall examined similarities between the holistic properties of Bose-Einstein condensates and those of consciousness. In 1968 the British physicist Herbert Fröhlich had suggested that condensation similar to Bose-Einstein can be achieved in Nature by biological organisms which are in a non-equilibrium state. In Marshall's hypothesis, the brain contains a Frölich-style condensate, and, whenever the condensate is excited by an electrical field, conscious experience occurs. Marshall theory contends that the brain would maintain its dynamical coherence due precisely to the properties of such a condensate.
Synaptic quantum uncertainty
John Carew Eccles suggested in 1986 that the synapses in the cortex may respond in a probabilistic manner to neural excitation; a probability that, given the small dimensions of synapses, could be governed by quantum uncertainty.
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Consciousness as the observer

The philosopher Michael Lockwood noted that special relativity implies that mental states must be physical states. He argued that sensations must be intrinsic attributes of physical brain states. Thus in quantum terms each sensation corresponds to an observable event in the brain; this makes the observer, in quantum mechanics, conscious of the physical world.
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Conscious matter

Nick Herbert, a physicist, has been even more specific on the similarities between Quantum Theory and consciousness. Herbert thinks that consciousness is a pervasive process in nature and that it is as fundamental a component of the universe as elementary particles and forces. James Culbertson, a pioneer of research on robots, has even speculated that consciousness may be a relativistic feature of space-time. In his opinion, too, consciousness permeates all of nature, so that every object has a degree of consciousness.
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A tripartite model

American physicist Henry Stapp's model of consciousness is tripartite in that each event is driven by three quantum processes operating in concert. The first is a mechanical, deterministic process that predicts the state of the system given its state at a given time. The second is conscious choice. In formal Quantum Theory it is implied that something can be known only when Nature is asked a question. This in turn implies the third process, that consciousness has a degree of control over Nature because each time something is learned there is a change in the state of the universe, which directly corresponds to a change in the state of the brain. In Quantum Mechanic terms: there occurs a reduction of the wave function compatible with the fact that something has been learned.
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Thought as a hologram

Many properties of the brain are the same properties that are commonly associated with holograms: memory is distributed in the brain and memories do not disappear suddenly, but slowly fade away. To psychologist Karl Pribram, a sensory perception is transformed in a "brain wave", a pattern of electromagnetic activation that propagates through the brain just like the wavefront in a liquid. The various waves that travel through the brain can interfere with each other. The interference of existing waves (a memory), and a fresh perceptual wave (sensory input) generates a structure (resembling a hologram) that is experienced as thought. Pribram refers to this as Holonomic brain theory.
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Quantum neurophysics

The Heisenberg and Von Neumann tradition has always viewed the brain as a quantum measuring device, but others claim that brain substrates can hold second-order quantum fields, which cannot be treated as mere measuring devices. This is the position of Kunio Yasue, a Japanese physicist who has developed quantum neurophysics. Yasue presents the brain as a macroscopic quantum system wherein the classical world can originate from quantum processes. Since he is not a connectionist, Yasue sees the fact that neurons are organized inside the brain as irrelevant. See Quantum brain dynamics for references.
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Space-time theories of consciousness

Alex Green has developed an empirical theory of phenomenal consciousness that proposes that conscious experience can be described as a five-dimensional manifold. As in Broad's hypothesis, space-time can contain vectors of zero length between two points in space and time because of an imaginary time coordinate. A 3D volume of brain activity over a short period of time would have the time extended geometric form of a conscious observation in 5D. Green considers imaginary time to be incompatible with the modern physical description of the world, and proposes that the imaginary time coordinate is a property of the observer and unobserved things (things governed by quantum mechanics), whereas the real time of general relativity is a property of observed things.
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Quantum spin-mediated consciousness

The Spin-Mediated Consciousness Theory, initially proposed by biophysicist Huping Hu with his collaborator Maoxin Wu, says quantum spin is the seat of consciousness and the linchpin between mind and the brain, that is, spin is the mind-pixel. According to this theory, Quantum consciousness is intrinsically connected to the spin process and emerges from the self-referential collapses of spin states, and unity of mind is achieved by entanglement of these mind-pixels.
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The Orch OR model

The theory espoused by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff is Quantum-gravitational Consciousness, or Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) and currently it is one of the best developed and the most popular. The Orch-OR model presumes that the microtubule network within neurons acts like a quantum computer. The tubulins are in superposition and the collapse of the wave function is driven by quantum gravity. Penrose and Hameroff believe that conscious information is encoded in space-time geometry at the fundamental Planck scale and that a self-organizing Planck-scale process results in awareness. Italian astrophysicist Paola Zizzi further suggests that the early universe may have achieved the quantum computational threshold for consciousness, and undergone Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR), in what has become known as the Big Wow theory.
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The clock cycle of brain waves

Based on empirical data from psychometrics, cognitive psychology, information psychology and electrophysiology, H. Weiss and V. Weiss (2003) [1] claim to be able to fit such data into an underlying theoretical framework supporting some of the basic assumptions of many of the above mentioned models. They claim that Bose-Einstein-condensation, symmetry breakage, and other related phenomena are at the core of quantum brain dynamics.
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M-theory

This approach by B. Flanagan builds on his work in mind/brain identity theory, positing an identity between photonic fields and their concomitant perceptual fields. Pointing to the symmetries and phase relations observed with color and sound, this work was extended to include considerations from Kaluza-Klein theory, gauge theory, fiber bundle theory, string theory, Chern-Simons theory, and M-theory.
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Quantum mysticism

The implications of Quantum mind theories have not been missed by believers of the paranormal, anxious for scientific justification of their beliefs. Some have claimed that quantum mechanics has eliminated the separation between mind, body and the world. The term "quantum consciousness" now shows up in the popular literature in connection with astrology, homeopathy, ghosts, angels, precognition, telepathy, alien abduction, acupuncture, and even how to achieve multiple orgasms. The writings of Fritjof Capra and Deepak Chopra have been instrumental in popularizing the view that there exists a connection between mysticism and quantum mechanics.
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CRITICISMS:

Broadly, the arguments against the possibility are:

First, comparatively large and high temperature items like neurons just do not exist in persisting states of linear superposition capable of exhibiting interference effects, and quantum mechanics offers no reason to think they should. All brain scale systems spend their time in well defined classical states; their behavior, even after interaction with thoroughly quantum systems like a decaying atom, can be described perfectly well with ordinary probability calculus. It turns out that effective classicality extends, under almost all conditions, far below the neural level to that of medium-sized molecules, covering the relatively large neurons.

Second, the truth of decoherence is that, regardless of whether there are any conscious observers around or not, objects which would be expected to behave in an essentially classical manner do exactly that. Interaction between objects and their environments, both external and internal, does the job of 'observation' erroneously accorded only to conscious observers, effecting a process which is experimentally indistinguishable from state vector reduction. However, the "truth of decoherence" depends upon the chosen preferred basis. There is no doubt that measurements and the evolution of quantum states continues without observers; the problem raised by Quantum Mind theories is which of these states is accompanied by your observing mind.

Third, none of the theories explains how the activity of single synapses enters the dynamics of neural assemblies, and they leave mental causation of quantum processes as a mere claim. Thus they are essentially unsatisfactory with regard to a sound formal basis and concrete empirical scenarios and lack compelling arguments or evidence that requires that quantum mechanics play a central role in human consciousness. If a quantum theory of mind applied then consciousness might appear to be epiphenomenal to some theorists.
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Pseudonominalism

Quantum theories of mind are among the few classes of theories acceptable in the philosophical stances of pseudonominalism and mind/brain identity theory.
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Many-minds interpretation

There is another type of quantum theory of mind called the many-minds interpretation that is invoked as a conservative version of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory and does not involve collapse of the quantum wave function.
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Consciousness causes collapse

Consciousness causes collapse is the speculative theory that observation by a conscious observer is responsible for the wavefunction collapse and that the process of measurement in quantum mechanics is consciousness itself.

http://www.answers.com/topic/quantum-mind

Dear Janet,

Lol, i made a nice journey through several pages on the Internet by following the link in your first post.

From there I clicked on the Wikepedia article "Consciousness causes collapse".
From there, clicked on the link "Is Consciousness Quantum? - Article discussing consciousness causes collapse theory in a spiritual context.

Read the article and jumped to the New Thought net, found an article there: "The Real Big Bang", that brought me right back at the age of 34 where I had a spiritual experience of a dot bursting out into the Big Bang accompanied by a great insight.

Three years ago i was investigating the concept of the Labyrinth on the Internet. Asked myself the question: "Is the Internet a labyrinth"?
(a labyrinth is a unicursal maze in which you always arrive in the middle).
Had more or less the same experience.

In other words both experiences brought me right back to myself.

I am not a scientist, but both these spiritual experiences prove to me that in one way or the other i am capable of creating exactly that experience i subconsciously already have in mind.

To me this is proof enough and i am at peace with it.
I consider it a playful way of finding back my own truth over and over again trying out many different possibilities on the way :)

Thanks for the links.

Whew! You have provided a good deal of knowledge there Janet, and I shall follow up on the links when time permits. So much to know and so little time . . .

Peace

Mieke,

"The Labyrinth leading back to ones self"

Great thought.

Janet,

All that mentioned does contain puzzle pieces, there is one that is missing. It hasn't been published yet.... but soon.... when the timing is right and the impulse comes.

Janet:

Thanks for such a fascinating post and links with all that info.. it was very useful and insightful!

Adams: Thanks sir for the good words!

I am also trying to put together a list of books for reading written by Original Thinkers on Quantum Mechanics for those who are interested - I will put it here soon - by tomorrow morning US CST. I reckon it is better to read about Beethoven's Symphonies through what Beethoven himself had to say as opposed to some failed-me-too-musicians who haven't added an iota of ORIGINAL thought/work to the field and take pride behind a false veil of their self-congratulatory technical genius! Crib they must.. so let that be their Illusion..

Thanks,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hi Richard,

Thanks it is indeed; i made a lot of them in 3D virtual reality and walked a few at a shore, in the woods and in a cathedral. I made one with a friend that i can visit whenever i will, it lies there surrounded by trees for eternity :).

Of course there are lots of websites about it but one that is very interesting and special hereunder:

http://www.mymaze.de/index_english.htm

Desh,

You are great. May be you should write a book for masses using simple language as Deepak Chopra does. You surely can play a role in bringing peace.

Sanjay Sethi

Books by Quantum Physics Pioneers

Hi all: As I had promised, I have put on a list of books on my blog which you can access - the books that we written by the QP pioneers and help us go into their minds with respect to their thoughts on Science/Spirituality.

If you come across any other books that should be on the list, please let me know and I will add them.. in any case, I will keep updating that list too..

Here is the link:

http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=node/3467

Sanjay: Thanks buddy!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Very well articulated mr,Desh
Sage Vashista,quotes,
Distinction between ignorance and knowledge is unreal and verbal,their is neither ignorance nor even knowledge........when two notions are abandoned what remain is the truth....it is more empty then space yet it is not empty..because it is full of consciousness. :)

The knowing of observer in observed
the knowing of object in subject
is only the play of mind and maya
the particles of brain wave
and their collapsion on pave
as an expression to save
the manifested being then behave
knowledgeble being as slave
to knower of the known
owner of the unknown
Self thus see!
broaden your heart have compassion
broden your mind have comprehension
travel beyond mind
travel beyond thoughts
a little beyond psychology
what need is, to be in Meera ecastasy
Vastness of existence
is available to all and one
put aside the worry of known and unknown
Take a quantum dip
Mevlana the Rumi
a whirl,a dance
a frill and laughter
for a change can take you to enlightenment