There is really only one thing missing or rather one person. And that would be George Bush Sr. Saddam's business partner. Not told is the compliance of the CIA who trained Saddam and relied on him as an asset. Together Bush and Saddam defrauded Billions of oil dollars out of weak leaders in the area. The slant-drilling of Kuwait that led to Saddam's invasion and onto Dessert-Storm. The US use of WMD's in the form of D.U. (Depleated Uranium) munitions that caused the "mystery" desease (Radiation poisoning) of American troops. This has resulted in over half of those soldiers becoming sick and D.U. is being used again today in Iraq. Also massive amounts of birth defects from Radiation. {Interesting viewing if you go on-line and Google "birth defects in Iraq" or similar. Fetus's with external organs, no eyes, no arms or legs, two heads, etc. Lots of fun when we know that "God is on our side".}

Saddam's death, which is no great loss since he is just a low-life criminal, will only serve as a token offering unless "Daddy" Bush joins him. Then we would be making some progress, but he will never be brought to justice as long as we trust in despotic, satanic monsters because we are too weak to take control of our own lives.

Wake up America!

Hey Gotham, you made some good points.

Here is one more.

If anyone understood what the death of the body was all about, they wouldn't give him the pleasure.

A much greater punishment would be to keep him alive and let him watch the world, be restored to Peace. Plus he would be around to answer questions and testify about things if needed.

Excuse me a minute , while I shed a tear for Saddam Hussain...... There I feel better now.
As for me I choose the first option, although I would not say "joy" I will bet you there are thousands in Iraq who will celebrate the day Saddam is executed, and maybe ,someway, that will help to bring closure for them, I hope so.
Do you think this day would have ever come if it were not for the U.S soldiers pulling him out of that pit he was hiding in? OH, excuse me , that is more of the "evil" U.S.involvement in a foreign country.

No one can be presumed innocent or entirely guilty in all this. The blame can be shared by all.

Everyone willingly or unwillingly continues to play their part as actors on a stage called Iraq without any way yet to walk off stage. How do you end a play whose final act has not been written? Hussein's death is only one episode in a plot thick with violence.

Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney have probably killed as many Iraqis in 3 years as Saddam did in 30 years. Plus, they have destroyed a soverign country and wasted countless billions of dollars to achieve mayhem and destruction in a foreign country. This death sentencing is just a re-enactment of the white man using, exlpoiting, and then dispensing away with the used. So much of the world's problem today are a legacy of colonialism. It was time to end this and yet it seems it will continue in this century. How sad.

Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney have probably killed as many Iraqis in 3 years as Saddam did in 30 years. Plus, they have destroyed a soverign country and wasted countless billions of dollars to achieve mayhem and destruction in a foreign country. This death sentencing is just a re-enactment of the white man using, exlpoiting, and then dispensing away with the used. So much of the world's problem today are a legacy of colonialism. It was time to end this and yet it seems it will continue in this century. How sad.

a challenging theme to comprehend...

as after all not all is what it seems ...

living in a society where human lives count no more than a penny ...

where sadism have become a way of life ...

young girls with their eyes gauged out ...

while others are burned alive inside the boot of their cars ...

I am often appaled by the apathy of governments who go cold ...

not to mention the millions who watch in lethargy ...

the silent permission for evil forces tp take over ...

Are we to believe that pulling Sadam from the hole justifies the thousands who have died and will continue to die???

recently I was talking with someone with access the to the president in my country...

she was in tears about her helpleness about the violent killings ...

question is ... I asked

what vision do you have that will assist in the creation of a better world???

to realize there was nothing ...

as she has never tasken the time to consider it as an option ...

except in the whining ...

that only adds to ones despair ...

A challenge to us all ...

oh ... my dream

to connect withlike minded individuals striving to participate in the creation of a better world, willing to go the distance with ingenious and creative ways...

that transcends the literal...

as after all we are one ...

in need of each other ...

so that together we grow ...

LIE

Lie. Encroaching desert
Date fruits aren’t there

***

for sometime
let’s put a barrier against the current
for sometime
a barrier

for sometime
lets barricade the sun
for sometime
against sun

***

that day
at the ends of men’s breath are
shades of lies
this day
on lives ends
are shades of truth
what does the Death Sentence of Saddam
tell you my friend?
Life’s Value raised its voice and
spoke for the common man
Iraqi child is murdered execution style
what does it tell you my friend?
Life’s Value will speak again

***

Lie is an encroaching empire
We two aren’t there

Hanging of an oppressor, a poem

CULTURES CLASHING IN CURRENT WARS

If it was to take the revenge
against someone who
had threatened to kill a
powerful one, it is over.

If it was to destroy the
non-existing weapons
while possessing the same
manifold more, they haven't
been found.

If it was to remove from
power someone presumed
to be a terrorist, that has been
achieved.

If it was to destroy an
ancient culture older than
that of the aggressor, that
has been destroyed.

If it was to establish puppet
regimes in opposing
lands, they have been put
in power.

The aggressor killed thousands
more than the oppressor,
the aggressor wasted billions
more than the oppressor,
the aggressor caused much
more havoc than the oppressor
and achieved nothing worthwhile.

What are the wars about?
To kills those you don't agree with?
To rape and plunder their lands?
To force your will on others?
To prove only you've the sense?
To kill others to kill your fear?
To start wars to be in power?
To be a Messiah to save the world?

The oppressor killed those who opposed him.
The aggressor killed his people, manifold.
If the end justifies the means, killing is killing,
what's the difference?
If the oppressor is to be hanged,
what about the aggressor?

by ravi@Sulekha

The Bushies want Saddam dead before he starts talking about the Rummy-Chummy days with Bush I.

I think it would have been far better to allow him life imprisonment on the condition that he tells his complete history with the Americans and the British.

We'd never live it down.

And so Saddam must die, taking the secrets of all those secret deals with him when he goes.

As for it being some kind of milestone, in my mind it is neutralized by the countering milestone that The USA has caused the deaths of a lot more Iraqis than Saddam ever thought about killing.

Any Iraqi will tell you that it is now a lot worse in Iraq than when Saddam was in power.

And if Saddam was really as awful as the Bushies claim (and there's good reason to believe he was), then just consider what it means for the Americans to have actually made things worse after he was gone.

Or, as the eloquent GWB so aptly stated, "we aren't succeeding in Iraq as quickly as we wanted to."

Uh, OK. I guess we're "succeeding" a little bit slower than we had planned....

At the end... after all this confusion blabla...

They don't care about us... (Click my Blabla name)

A wave is coming,
This time
Not from sea
But from the land.

America will be flooded
People asking for the Bath.

We think we know
You red the books
You knew your history
You could answer all the TV questions
But we know
We are ignorants.

America is getting a very bad image
And it is ok
We are dirty.

But America has nothing to do
With bad leaders.
Selfish business man
America is full of good people inside the land.

Until now, the world didn't know us
We are Americans
Our roots are international.
We like freedom and justice.

Soon the world will see
Without money in our hands
We will stand up in front of you
And you in front of us

You will see our real face!
Each American hold a treasure for liberty!
We are fighting to share it with you!

The invaders in your land, are not us.
They are false
You can kill them all!

(Click my new American name)

Gotham,

I think this is one of your best posts about Iraq, it's very insightful and brings up many of the issues surrounding Saddam's death.

You didn't mention, though, the fact that Saddam was a person who would stop at nothing and didn't hesitate to use biological weapons in the war against Iran - which I think, says a lot about Saddam. I also think it's worth mentioning that when Saddam would execute someone, the execution would be open for the public to watch and the family of the executed person was forced to watch the killing.

The things we could say about Saddam's callousness and unpredictability are almost endless.

I'm not defending G.W. Bush's choice to go to war - I've always thought it was extremely unwise to start an unprovoked war. Even if he was convinced Saddam had WMD and needed to be stopped, I think he should be held accountable for at least some of the horrible things that occurred because of this war. It's probably never going to happen, but at least the world will have one less dangerous leader to worry about when Saddam will be gone. Let's hope the next U.S. President will be a lot wiser and less belligerent.

I agree with you, the death penalty is barbaric and illogical. How can we condemn killers on the grounds that it is wrong to kill - by killing them?! But maybe in Saddam's case this is the only way to give a sense of 'closure' to the Iraqis who still fear that Saddam could come back to power one day.

Who knows, maybe it will also eventually help to bring peace to Iraq once people realize that Saddam will never come back to power and that it's time to build a new Iraq?

Regards,

Lars

This just in:

Military deaths in Iraq exceed Sept. 11 toll of 2,973 deaths
news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=173953

But we have killed dozens of thousands of Iraqis. That should avenge us, right?

Except the Iraqis didn't cause 9/11. Oops.

Feeling avenged yet?

I'm not, either.

Feeling lied to, sucker-punched, and betrayed by acts of treason and war crimes on the part of our "elected" officials? Angry?

Me too.

Mr. R and others go to a country and hoist their puppet as the dictator of that country. They get oil and prosper from him. He is ruthless and rapes and kills with impunity. They give him arms to fight others. All is well.

One day this puppet wants to live. He awakes and starts living on his own. Now he is Dictator-the-Ruthless. He still kills and rapes. But now he has a color. And a life. Living Puppets are not Good.

So Mr. R and his friends go in again in that country and bomb as many people as that dictator had killed through R's help and when he came "alive".. all in the name of the people themselves.

ARe we ashamed to even rejoice or feel saddened at the killing of the puppet?

His life was his ONLY crime!

When will we learn and get something done of our collective myopias???

Desh
Drishtikone.com

he was just a product of the world as are Bush and everyone...

-------

To all of myself that played the role of villain, I hope you all had fun...

For this role comes at a price when all is said and done, when the hero has won...

The hero gets the glory and the villain has the fun, but the truth is, both are played by the same eternal One.

~Infinite Play the Movie

Hi Gotham,

Saddam was/is a symptom, not a cause of the problems that the Middle East is experiencing. And as along as the cause is still in place "Saddam" will continue to incarnate instantaneously...in other other words a new despot will fill his place.

The cause of much of the unrest in this part of the world is one of addiction. Addiction to the drug called oil. The whole world feeds into this addiction because even though it is the U.S. that seems to be at the forefront, it really is the entire industrialized world. The U.S. is simply the face that this addiction takes. The reality is that all of us are intimately involved. The more the world sees and envies the west and its lifestyle, the more oil addicts are created. This increases the demand on the Middle east and the desire to stabilize this region in order to ensure the production of the drug.

The late Frank Herbert probably understood this situation as well as anybody. He used the metaphor of "spice" in his Dune novels to represent a product that literally rules the world; in Dune, Spice extends life, creates the ability to travel great distances and expands consciousness.

Oil is our Spice.

We make plastics out of it; use it to heat our homes, get to work, deliver our food. We use it to communicate, to take trips in four hours that only a short time ago took half a year to travel. It is the lubrication in the cog of modern, human existance. And just like any drug that becomes depended upon too greatly, it destroys its user. Its over use is changing the enviroment that supports life and our bodies are atrophying from lack of exercise.

The Middle East is our Dune...right now it is the one place in our "Universe" that has vast quantities of our "spice" (our drug). The constant mucking about in that part of the world by all of the worlds powers has not allowed that region to stabilize itself. All of the things that are done even those done with the right intention, have destroyed the natural order of things; our actions, rather than stabilizing, have interupted the journey of that region.

The only answer of course is to accept the suffering that the removal of our drug will cause. However, since we are "blissfully" unaware of our addiction that is not likely to happen any time soon.

Peace,
Scott.

My opinion, the death penalty, should be, in a civil codex, only tought in history of criminal law classes,

'I also believe that in order to cease our involvement in such murky nation building in the future, Iraq must be left unto itself to start figuring out its own problems.'

Come on, the soverneighty notion, while it served it's evolutionairy purposes, back then,

in 2006..

Let's draw an analogy, with maritime law, the ship, closest to one, in need, is..

?
Wassn't that an universal law..?
or only liable under certain..

what?
You tell me guys,

love, Passion,

my bad, I forgot, in the real world, nobody gives, a crap, and politics..mostly an 'insurance' case..

but still,
a Machiavelli approach vs. 'you catch more bees..'

mmhmn..

Love, Passion,

If one is not just to the cruel, then one becomes cruel to the just.

Their is a time for justice and a time for mercy, the hanging of Saddam is a time to be just.

Steve

Ah, the dilemma of the Scorpion. A third option is to be straight-up and pull no punches -- a fitting option for the fittest of intense people.

:)

My best friend is a Scorpio, maybe that gives me the right to tease you a little about this.

love, Heath

lol,
ah, indeed, maybe that is, a scorpio's..karma..
to transcend..

But let me say you this,
Sometimes, not doing, can get you sued..

More so than.., ;)
The law of giving..

facinating stuff..

In the meanwhile i'll be reading the treaties..
http://www.un.org/english/

While, scewing up, they sure, produce some nice precedents.. every now and than..
;)

love, passion,

Flavours of a 'teardrop'

Reading through the posts here on such an important social semantic response elicits me to share a personal perspective on holding a way of seeing and accepting... A person has a 'ground value' as a human being that is without question equal and as valuable as all other beings, may we shed from one eye a tear of sadness at this loss. A person also has an intrinsic value, positive or negative in relation to society's needs. From our other eye, may we share a tear of joy at the removal of such a negative contribution...

Joseph

I acknowledge your point. Danger is directly proportional to the complexity of the game being played. When the game is worth the prize, the risk is, too. How to know? When the psyche is strong from the challenges of reality, the value of a game's prize and risk can be assessed with real skill. Why reality, and not Machiavellian or honeyed gamesmanship, as the ongoing exercise? There's more chance and less control in reality. It's infinitely more difficult, and thus develops finer skills. Working directly with reality is abitraging, rather than manipulation. It's a wild dance in the air, not a walk or sit-down. Enuf from me today, dear lawyer. :) Enjoy the research.

Death penalty for SH? He belongs to his country, who should make their own determination from their hearts, as to what to do.

love, Heath

Dear Joseph

Forgive me for appearing to assess your words, but I can't leave without saying: Your comment is difficult to accept, but it's also guilelessly honest and totally brilliant.

love, Heath

Regarding the impending execution of Hussein, the Associated Press is reporting that:

Saddam Hussein has written a farewell letter: “I call on you not to hate because hate does not leave space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking," the letter said.

Hussein lamented that he was not given an opportunity to say a final word at his sentencing.

“That court and its chief judge did not give us the chance to say a word, and issued its verdict without explanation and read out the sentence -- dictated by the invaders -- without presenting the evidence," Hussein wrote.”

CNN is reporting that: “Baath Party, the political movement that ruled Iraq during the Saddam Hussein era, is warning there will be "grave consequences" if former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein is executed.

Saying it would hold the United States responsible, a message appeared on al-basrah.net Tuesday that read: "The Baath and the resistance are determined to retaliate in all ways and all places that hurt America and its interests if it commits this crime."

Prudence dictates that Saddam Hussein should be kept locked up and be allowed to die in prison rather than hanged. There are no reasons to doubt the threats issued by the Baathists. The execution of Hussein may result in an unfortunate escalation in the bloodletting and carnage on Iraqi streets we see nightly on the news.

Yep, I agree, Ron,

Incarceration for life vs. the death sentence,

a neverending story of..

Jurisdiction?

or..

Politics..

Didn't we surpassed medieval..

apparantly not..

But, we'll be reading..

Love, Passion

Well perhaps the Baathists will heed Saddam's call not to hate and not retaliate after his hanging.

Steve

So, the tiran draws a.. card, on his deathbed;
not to hate..

well, would this be a precendent..?

hypocrisy..

Anyhow,
Still,

What he done, he did, maybe.. so..
but,
how replied.. isn't that the question..

Ah, we'll read, in history books..

love, passion,

#14 and #26

Well-said guys!

How easily we forget that we should not be in Iraq in the first place. Saddam is a terrible man but he was the leader of a fully functioning, independent country that, for al its shortcomings and faults, was working well, considering how the individual religious factions hate each other.

Absolutely no connection to 911 and we are still using that terrible day for justifying our presence in Iraq. Bush, the guy who needs a therapist more than anything else in the world, still wants to win the war. A war he personally, with the help of a command of his god, manufactured.

Like some of you keep saying, what does winning the war mean?

Well, Dubya screwed up every step of the way and he is not about to change now. He will make Saddam’s hanging another landmark after which, he says, things will get better, even though he believes that thing have to get a lot worse before JC comes and saves all the Christens.

Let me borrow a bit of Ron’s wisdom:
“We are indeed living in the middle of the dark ages, with a few flickering beacons of hope. The dawn of the age of enlightenment remains a distant mirage in our time, regrettably!”

Guys..

Let's me tell you about fairytales..and norms..

Wich transcends any codex's..

A good family man.. in charge of a, head of, a, family, business, or country..it doesn't really matter..

Fill in the details..
yourself..

Love, passion,

Skep,

You are one of those flickering beacons of hope, my dear friend, and I am sure you will not be despaired by unwarranted attacks orchestrated by any of those who are content to smugly remain in their preferred state of blissful ignorance!

Regards...

FOREIGN POLICY
A poem

Who cares who you are -
a dictator, a war lord, a drug lord,
a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a thug-
you are our friend so long
you're the enemy of our enemy
and we can use you till the end.

Once you trying screwing us
we will screw you to the end
for we know who you are -
a dictator, a war lord, a drug lord
a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a thug.

by ravi@Sulekha

DIPLOMATIC MORALITY
A poem

'Go kill our enemy.
We will give you money.
We will give you guns,' you tell them.

They are the enemies of
your enemy, not your friends,
and come to kill you at the end

with your money, with your guns.
And then you kill your so called friends
first using them to meet your ends.

Or you weaken your enemy
fostering fight among themselves,
finding another enemy for them.

And you call yourself the
leader of morality, the savior of
democracy in the whole wide world!

by ravi@Sulekha

Since tonight, the only princess, @ a parallel universe.. is a long distance.. Brazilian..oooh, Britney, whould be jealous.., seriously,

anyhow,

One crime doesn't make up for another, even if it
is, was, a mass-..(*judge for yourself..)

A hanging? they judge? NOT IN EUROPE!!! ARE YOU MORONS?!!!!!!!!>? OR WHAT?!!!!!? RETARDED?!!?

(*that can get you out of jail..BTW..
..just like the big Smurf you elected in charge..

idiots, autists, if this would be ship.., you should be long be...

what would be the maritime..

;)
Love, Passion,

Do you know, guys, how many dictorial regimes, cq, maffia states, the world, tolerates?

You would be surprised.. negativitly..

No joke, it's.. who's fault..?

I'll read it in the morning..

Love, passion

It is a sad day for humankind; when the only alternative to evil; is to make it extinct, via execution.

ONE murder, does not lose value over, or under another murder.. so what, if one is legal, and one is not legal to do? It is still... murder.

And yet, we have this justice theory;that if we could live and abide by stringent rules and laws; we would be a peaceful earth.

And yet, not all leaders abide by them. Not all people adhere to peace and goodness. There is as much evil in the world of humankind, as their is goodness.. perhaps evil prevails, as current death-rates around the world climb; slamming us back fifty years into dark ages.. pre-antibiotics, medicines and spirituality, and definately we face a post apocalyptic global warming effects to come...

Yet, how do we as a domesticated, peaceful intended, compassionate society of our global-shared family.... justify not making evil extinct?

My heart/mind/spirit/soul is so very torn these days on the issue of death as a penalty... I always wanted to believe, every being can be reformed.. but, it is not true, is it?

I am just glad, I must easily confess; that, I am not a leader, nor a god...

IS it possible to have an eutopic earth.. when faced with the diversity and abjectivity of evil, and the comlacency of goodness, as the reigning entity; to stop evil, beginning with poverty?

with loving kindness,
North

“We are currently asking the Shiites and Sunnis of Iraq to put their allegiance to their nation ahead of their allegiance to their religion. We must surely ask ourselves, and especially our political leaders, to make the same solemn commitment.”
DANIEL C. DENNETT

Hello Gotham and Everyone,

Maybe it is just the fact that I have a sinus infection and I feel like crapo, but all this belly-ho about Saddam's sentence of death by hanging is most likely uncalled for.

This is a man who gave up his "human=beingness" a long, long, time ago, probably when he decided to become the ruthless dictator is so lovingly enjoyed these past how many years? Saddam the dictator is getting his due justice, Saddam the "human being" left this earth a long long time ago.

anyway, for all the victims of his brutal reign, I am sure they do not have any questions or doubts about his sentence.

peace ruth

old girl...just stay in bed and get plenty of rest...and when u feel betta u can come back to the dance...u just let out a plume of hotair...no? yeah!

Guys.., let me take you to the history faculty,

and draw your own conclusions..

Let's take, the year..

1989: Romania's 'first couple' executed
Deposed Romanian president Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elena have been shot by a firing squad after a secret military tribunal found them both guilty of crimes against the state.
They were charged and convicted of genocide and undermining the national economy among a series of other offences, officials said.

Does everybody remember, that there was a mega-list of volenteers, back then of people who wanted, to get into the firing squad..

seriously,

Anyhow, the point, right, or just another argument, against the death penalty..

Love, Passion,

The world is better off without Saddam in power!

An Iraqi might have this to say:

With Saddam still in power, we still would have no WMD, all our hospitals and bridges would still be intact. Electricity and water would still be supplied. An estimated 600 thousand of us would still be alive and so would 3000 American soldiers. Another 1.5 million of us who decided to leave the country would still be around. Our country Iraq, with its meticulously kept museums, would still be considered ‘the cradle of civilization,’ with a record of culture going back more than 7,000 years. We would not have so many widows!

Couldn’t the 400 billion dollars so far spent on removing someone so the “world is better off” have been spent to catch Bin Laden, the guy was responsible for 911. Or maybe actually help somewhere where there really is and was a problem before we got there, somewhere like Somalia.

Or maybe just take the poor off the streets in the US.

Sorry, I forgot, the administration, consisting of those cultural illiterates, wants the world and its citizens to look forward!

I see Saddam as a creature of a lust for power and money that has blinded the US Government and its Presidents since long. Do you think that by killing Saddam, any of those atrocities that he perpetuated are history?

The time is to tackle and put the puppet-creation mentality and practices into perspective and make sure a Saddam never happens!

Leaving Saddam free today is LESS harmful than leaving the basis of his creation scott-free!

In Ramayana, Ram kept on killing Ravana and he kept on returning back.. not until he shot him at the point where his Pranas were concentrated!

Evil has no name. It just reappears in different bodies under different names.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Skep,

You forgot to mention the $25,000 suicide benefit payment to families of Palestinians that Saddam happily paid for blowing up Israelis.

Steve

The butcher of Baghdad was a terrible creature.

But the very fact that the majority of Iraqis feel they would be better of today, if he ran the place, should speak volumes.

Nice, one's! guys,

Couldn't resist..

Let me give you a point of view..

There is no such thing as 'war'!,
that's just a legal label,
(*ab)used for.. (*who's agenda..?)
(yes, you may fill the dots in yourself..)

or do you have to download someone else's operating system?..

anyhow,
You have the mob on one side, and consumers, on the other!

Both morons!,
just,
diffent laws, same human principles,
apply,

ah, feels, better..I'm out to the bar,
ltz,
Love, Passion,

Skep and Amba.. great points all!! Steve, it bothers me greatly, to learn that american soldiers IF killed in war; get over one million american dollars, plus lucritive widow/family pension packages, and scholarships for kids who lost a parent as a soldier??

Have we stooped so low; that we entice killing machines.... with a million-dollar market/racket? Any man/woman with NO better life; will join the forces, go get killed, and make their abandoned families rich? There is something deeply disturbing about this "new" trend, to buy soldiers loyalty?

Marek.. yours too, profound points, how anyone would volunteer in droves like that!!

IT is the bloodlust used in hanging Saddam; which keeps the flow of hate alive. With Saddam alive; hate diminishes over the kindness of time....

Killing Saddam, quickens his death.. they want Saddam out of the picture, b/c his court case, was botched from the beginning.... it is now time to silence the lamb... being USED to hide the secret intent of the Bush Admin.. to INVADE Iraq.. under the disguise of terrorism, when in FACT, it is the Bush Admin; whom are the worlds leading terrorists(and getting to become top of the poorest, currently)

Hate, is an abomination of the human spirit--a mutant intention. It can be stopped. But, first; you must rid the revenge within your own selves, for it to BE stopped. Stop the flow.. is in what you KNOW. NOT, what has transpired or in revenge..but, in how you stop the flow of it from continuing.

Death by hanging.. will be a catapult for wars on the streets of the US.. all as I predicted, post-9-11... it's what the US ADmin WANTS to happen!! There are so many reasons too.. and you see them every day... you just are in states of denial about it..

Once there is war on the streets in the US; the people of the US will no longer be free. then, you become Bush's puppet, as his co-horts from the east, take over "with him" and "for him".... even worse than you all are, now; since his first and then second "stolen/illegal" elections....

whew!! your rights and freedoms--are being taken from you... but hey! have another cuppa coffee, another cigareete, a shot of tequila, bourbon, or milk; enjoy it while you still can.... your days of feasting are near over... now the famine comes; b/c of your leader.

The way I see it is this: you are all in a bush-maze.. and you can't get out...

Can you hear it?...

Silence...

Now... can you hear it?...

She is calling the Saddams living inside each of us...

She is calling our pride... (click my bloody name)

You say "But the very fact that the majority of Iraqis feel they would be better of today, if he ran the place, should speak volumes."

If you don't mind that I "cut and paste" some findings from a recent USATday poll, it does not back up your statement. I'm not arguing that a majority want the US out, my point pertains to how they feel w/o the Butcher of Baghdad:

"The poll shows that most continue to say the hardships suffered to depose Saddam Hussein were worth it. Half say they and their families are better off than they were under Saddam. And a strong majority say they are more free to worship and to speak."

Show me another poll and we can go from there,

Steve

# 26.
Ron, I feel similarly over this issue. I have no problem with the sentance imposed by the court as long as it is according to the law of the land and followed a fair trial. On this last, I do have a few doubts - lawyers being assasinated, judge being changed (some report because he was considered sympathetic) and all the prosecution witnesses being kept out of sight. Perhaps this was necessary for their own protection. However, because of the way this trial went along, there are doubts about the way it was conducted, as one newspaper reported here, it smacks of 'victors justice'. There is one thing I am sure of, that he deserves punishment and whether he rots in jail or hangs is irrelevant. I do feel, like you, that in the current situation, imprisonment would be a more prudent option.

The butcher of Baghdad was a terrible creature.

But the very fact that many Iraqis feel they would be better of today, if he ran the place, should speak volumes.

I think Saddam gave up being a human being when he was being trained by the CIA; it kinda happens when you work with killers . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/29/world/middleeast/29saddam.html says an execution may be imminent. In the US, justice for very serious cases is very slow, and death penalties are appealed for decades. So the speed with which this may happen is worrisome. Maybe the slowness with which US death penalty cases proceed, and the fact that the delay always gives hope for reversal, pardon or commutation of the sentence, discharges some of our guilt at condoning a death penalty at all. The immediate nature of the process in Iraq has placed the reality of killing someone as a punishment right in front of my face. What I don't like about it is the impossiblity of reconsideration. Even though that would be unlikely with Hussein, it's a principle that US appeals processes have drilled into my mind as a necessary prelude to any execution. So I'm feeling as if I want to say, stop, wait, do this more slowly! Even for him. Pity, at least, is owed to the person who is being judged by his fellow humans, and has been determined to be so dangerous that he must be killed like a bug underfoot. Maybe the long appeals process is how the US decorates, and sings for, the goat who is to be slaughtered. Virtually no crime is committed in isolation by a single person. Although one man or woman may committ a murder, in the background of the murderer is a crowd of people, and circumstances, some within the person and some external, that walked with the murderer, and helped make his or her life and actions what they were. Every execution is a symbolic punishment, as well as a specific one. At least unconsciously, we're aware of that. It's where part of our guilt comes from.

love, Heath

And what if the wars are not anymore situated on the lands?

What if all this problems in Iraq... with Saddam and Ben were a mass diversion?

What if the the battle fields were somewhere else?

What if the actual arms were "concepts" and the battle field was the mind? The mind of the mass!

Saddam and Ben could be used like puppets for mass illusions.

If you think it's going to far to think like that... talk with a good business man.

Are we obscene?

We are living in cyber-reality. We do not have the life that we want. We are stuck.

We are justifying our own death inside, by the "concept" that bring out of us the words and the imagination to see the death of a man. We think we will have a satisfaction from that act or that will bring justice or peace!

We are talking about the death of a man. Can you imagine? You say yes... good for you... but can you realize that thinking like that, you give the power of your life easily in the hands of the others. By this judgement, you put the rope around your own neck. Are we not stuck enough?

Go away from this and focus on the real battle field! Better, focus to get out of the battle field! We have no choice now that to connect with spirit. We are reaching that level now.

Tibet has disappeared... What make us think that we are better?

Are we going obscene?

But can our "white head" know what obscene is?

Obscene...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscene

(Click my obscene name)

----

(Ladies and Gentlemen)

We are the thing of shapes to come
Your freedom’s not free and dumb
This Depression is great
The Deformation Age, they know my name
Waltz into scum and base and
Married to the pain

Bang, we want it
Bang, we want it
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!
You came to see the mobscene
I know it isn’t your scene
It’s better than a sex scene
and it’s so fucking obscene
Obscene, yeah.

You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down
You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down

Girls (In the spirit of Oscar Van Wylde)
Be obscene, be, be obscene
Be obscene, baby, and not heard

The day that love opened our eyes
We watched the world end
We have "high" places, but we have no friends
The told us sin’s not good but we know it’s great
War-time full-frontal drugs, sex-tank armor plate

Bang, we want it
Bang, we want it
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!
You came to see the mobscene
I know it isn’t your scene
It’s better than a sex scene
and it’s so fucking obscene
Obscene, yeah.

You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down
You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down

Girls (In the spirit of Oscar Van Wylde)
Be obscene, be, be obscene
Be obscene, baby, and not heard.
Be obscene, be, be obscene
Be obscene, baby, and not heard

You came to see the mobscene
I know it isn’t your scene
It’s better than a sex scene
And it’s so fucking obscene
Obscene, yeah!

You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down
You want commitment?
Put on your best suit; get your arms around me
Now we’re going down, down, down

(Ladies and gentlemen, be obscene!
Be obscene, be, be obscene!)

Girls and Marilyn Manson (In the spirit of Oscar Van Wylde)
Be obscene, be, be obscene
Be obscene, baby, and not heard.
Be obscene, be, be obscene
Be obscene, baby, and not heard.

Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!

Hey Jean!

In a world of opposites, M.M. represents all
that is ugly, tasteless, dark, and yes...
ridiculously obscene! He is gross, and
the grosser he gets, the more fans
bring their offerings to him.

If Sceptisch and Ron are on
the warpath to stamp out religion,
I would like to see them start with this
maniac whose "artistry" belongs in the toliet!
If Lucifer were to Fall today, he'd show up like this.

Saddam Hussein was clearly tyrannical but the broader question is whether his trial in Iraq was fair.

With numerous defense lawyers gunned down, a divided Iraq along sectarian lines, and a US-backed government in power, the question of a just trial under those circumstances is remote.

Therefore, the execution is politically motivated and less concerned with broader question of justice, especially since Mr. Hussein will not be put on trial for other alleged atrocities. Instead he will be quickly executed according to current media reports.

The quick execution is meant to serve as a "blow" to the insurgency. Though given other markers in the past that have proved unsuccessful, such as, Bush declaration of an end of combat operations, capture of Hussein, two elections, death of al-Zarqawi; Hussein's execution will likely not quell the insurgency, especially since "Saddam loyalists" are only a small percentage of total insurgents. The situation in Iraq is at best volatile and only a fool would hazard predictions.

Mr. Hussein gave orders to his armed forces to conduct certain "operations," which resulted in gross Human Rights violations against Shias and Kurds. Similarly the Bush government has allowed with the invasion of Iraq a climate where gross Human Rights violations can and have occurred. Abu-Gharib and Fallujah illustrate some of these abuses.

Therefore, allegations can be made against President Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld for atrocities committed in Iraq as a result of the American led invasion. Yet the thought of such a trial is ludicrous, since their power is outside examination by any international court.

In the final analysis, guilt or innocence is less a product of seeking justice and more a question of who can enforce it. With the fall of Saddam's dictatorship, he could easily be put on trial where the conclusion had been largely predetermined.

Its a difficult one to discuss to be honest. However, somehow, I feel that if justice is to be done for any heinous crime against humanity, then can we not try George Bush and Tony Blair for war crimes? Are they not just as guilty for several thousands of innocent people dying? Quite frankly eveybody is so fed up with the US policy of world domination-perhaps we should all listen to David Iycke. The whole 9/11 conspiracy was fabricated by the Bush Administration to create an excuse to go to war. If anyone should go to the gallows, George Bush should.

Hello Gotham and Everyone,

Saddam sentence came down from the justice system Iraq has not the justice system others wish for it.

sorry, just dying to use D. Rumsfeld's line you know, the going to war with the army you got not the one you wish for..priceless..

but Saddam say..do not cry for me Iraq.

I am sooo bad..

peace ruth

Great points in your #58 Arvind... how is it, that two countries like the US and the UK, can invade Iraq "under false pretense" and remain, when evidence of their false pretentious invasion, still did NOT appear? Yet, Bush & Blair, will walk away, as great leaders of their nation, that brought down Suddam.. killed hundreds of thousands of people to do it.. yet, the reason for the invasion.. Bin Laden.. goes yet... all but, a forgotten whisper in the wind..Not surprising, being the Bush family has been best buddies with them, for generations, and that Bush is a godson of a Saudi.... whom is the main financier as well as China, Germany & Russia. in their invasion of Iraq.

Americans, are 400 billion dollars of tax payers money poorer... for generations and generations to come... so that the rich in current power, can get richer.

I've been saying since 9/11, it was a Bush-job.... the day it happened, even!! There is nothing new about that conspiracy theory... even "that" video, shows demolition explosives going "off" in their destructive places... camera flash's they say? hundreds of stories up? yeah sure.. with all that dust and soot? uh uh...

Every news channel is busy discussing the fact that the execution is probably within the next hour. It is difficult to understand this fascination over another human being put to death. Have simply switched off.

I guess if this death brings closure to all the hundreds and thousands of people who have lost their loved ones bcause of him, it may serve a purpose. But my mind also goes back to that great speech made by George Bush where he gave Saddam 72 hours notice to quit and promised to bring water, food, medicine and schools to the Iraqi people.

Can we now expect him to deliver on that promise?

Will the other hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who lost their loved since the occupation and destruction of Iraq have to wait 20 years or so before justice is done to them and they can apply closure to their grief? Will those responsible for these deaths at least have the basic decency to even apologise for the pain their stupidity and inflated egoes have caused?

Will Iraq be put together again now that Saddam is gone?

Questions, questions, questions...

The Real Revolution...

Hello Gotham and Everyone,

Saddam has been hanged. I watched some old footage of him in his greatest role, that being, the great dictator of Iraq. He enjoyed many, many pleasures and luxuries in that role, whatever he fancied he could simply take as his own and use as he liked, such is the right of all dictators. It seems to be a role that is throughly enjoyed by the men or women who choose to play it. But, with any role it has an upside and a downside and even though they usually do not want to acknowledge the downside, it is always a possibility and can pop up and hit you in the head, anytime, while you play the role. Saddam hit the downside a role he throughly loved and enjoyed while riding the upside, but the downside was also always around the corner waiting for the call for front and center stage, it is time, the role has seen it's last run, Goodbye Saddam.

happy new year everyone, ruth

Hello Gotham and Everyone,

Maybe, it should be- Saddam has been hung?

ruth

Hi Ruth,

You had it right the first time, he was hanged. Inanimate objects are hung.

Good riddance, I say, perhaps just perhaps we can move on, Iraq can move on, the world can move on.

Take care and Happy New Year!

Steve

Hello Everyone,

Thanks Steve, appreciate it. Heading to the dictionary to brush up.

Saddam was a full player, he was in the power game completely and the game is a tough one if you end up on the losing end, as he knew, well enough, by making sure those under him, stayed there, under him. He, certainly felt no remorse for his playing, he stood behind himself and his ways to his very end.

The World has not seen the end of dictators by the hanging of Saddam, it has only seen the end of a particular dictator. The game will go on, until we learn, because, really, isn't that what it is all about, anyway, learning, unlearning, relearning, failing to learn lifes lessons.

Happy New Year, ruth

Ruth you are correct. Saddam was a big boy and knew what he was doing and go what he deserved. He was trained as an assassin by the CIA back in the '50 and used as an asset from there on.

The point is not about Saddam's guilt though, it is about the involvement by the US and Briton in using him until he became a liability and then claiming that he should be removed on "Moral" grounds so that we can bring democracy to Iraq.

The truth is to eliminate him (goal achieved) and plunge the Middle-East into chaos (on it's way). After Iraq, Iran and so fourth. Then Israel and it's allies can keep control and we get the Oil.

BTW: Jean-Francois, Not sure what planet you are from buddy, but start increasing the medication.

Happy New-Year everyone

You may find my post called "Execution of Saddam Hussein: Forgiveness vs. Anger" on Nexus Blog site listed in the above URL of interest.

It is relevant and furthers our discussion.

Arvind Singh
Author of Nexus: A Neo Novel