I love the way that Senator 'Turban' enumerates the things that 'we' have done for Iraq. He.. has done nothing for Iraq, but prolong this thing by giving hope to the insurgents and weakening the will of the American public by comparing our leaders to Pol Pot, and Gitmo to the Gulag....

He is a treasonous bastard, who in another era would have been run out of Washington on a rail. That he hasn't been already, is a testimony to the weakening of our culture, from the scourge of political correctness.

Thankfully in WWII, the men of the congress weren't the lily livered, yellowbacked, kiss ass cowards that the present day democrats are.

One of the most amazing things I've ever realized is this: Democrats in the United States of America, are invested in our defeat. Their hatred for our president so far surpasses their patriotism and sense of duty, that if they have to pull down the whole country to win points politically...they'll do it!

If the 435 members of the house, and the 100 members of the senate, would stand up, with a unified voice and back our troops and our leadership, we could squash the insurgency in 6 months. But...with the New York times giving aid and comfort daily to the enemy, and the likes of Senator Turban, this thing will drag on endlessly.

The question to me is this? Who is really responsible for the casualties? Is it GWB..or is it the spineless liberal contingent in this country who daily prop up the hopes of the Iraqi insurgency?

norm

Hello Everyone,

Hi Norm, glad to hear from you, once again.

you write,"One of the most amazing things I've ever realized is this: Democrats in the United States of America, are invested in our defeat. Their hatred for our president so far surpasses their patriotism and sense of duty, that if they have to pull down the whole country to win points politically...they'll do it"

Please, Norm, their hatred of this President? So, that is the problem with this whole mess? The NYTimes, The Democrats, all us yellow-bellied Americans who can admit to the fact that we put our trust in a President and an Administraton that, really, just had no idea they would have to stick around in Iraq and fight an insurgency? By Golly Jeepers!

In the words of the great Donald Rumsfeld you go to war with the President and the Administration you elected, not the President and Adminstration you wish for and we went to war with GWB and company and that, my friend, was America's biggest mistake. Our dislike or hate of this President had and has nothing to do with anything.

Maybe you have been wathching Fox News a little too much?

glad to see you back, Norm.

have a great day, ruth

Hey Ruth:

you're one of my favorites, hopefully we can agree to disagree!

Yes, I do believe the hatred of GWB is one of our greatest foes in this war. The 'islamofascists' aren't completely stupid. They know the mind of the American liberal. They feed off it, knowing if they can drag this thing out long enough, the resolve of the country will be weakened.

After our last illustrious leader's fiasco in somalia, Bin Laden commented on the American lack of ability to take casualties. They see us as being weak. Hell, I don't like casualties, no one in their right mind does. But do we meet those maniacs over there...or let'em come here. Sometimes I waver in my support, but I still think we're on the right track.

Sometimes the mark of a leader is the one who keeps going even when public opinion is against them. GWB, unlike his predecessor, doesn't govern by poll. He governs according to his oath.

norm

Hello Everyone,

"If the 435 members of the house, and the 100 members of the senate, would stand up, with a unified voice and back our troops and our leadership, we could squash the insurgency in 6 months. But...with the New York times giving aid and comfort daily to the enemy, and the likes of Senator Turban, this thing will drag on endlessly."

Norm, the above opinion of yours is not shared by about seventy percent of Americans both Republicans and Democrats.

I think most Americans realize that the cost of getting rid of Saddam Hussein was not worth the price, in both Iraqi and American lives. The problems that we created for this Nation through our Invasion and complete disintregation of the infrastructure were not worth the price. That the religious divide in this Nation is beyond our control in terms their being able to live and govern peacefully with one another. That the hatred and hurt of one religious faction for another may be too much for this Nation to even handle by themselves or be able to overcome without outside help.

Face the truth about this Invasion, Norm. It was a hurried, reckless Invasion, by men who thought they could win, easily. And, yes, we Americans thought that too. We are wrong, we were wrong and you can cry all you want about it and call seventy percent of the Americans, who are facing the facts, yellow-bellied whatevers, but it will not change the fact that we screwed up, big time, with this one.

have a great day, ruth

Hello Everyone,

Norm, you say Bin Laden perceives us as weak because we do not like to take casualities. He is right, we do not like to take casualities, personally, I perceive that as pretty intelligent. Bin Laden believes in self-detonation, and he believes that is a strength, but it is the strength of a maniac, a madman.

Who give a sheet what Bin Laden thinks or perceives, we either know who we are or we don't, and I am not at all confused that in the end, the perceived weakness, of not wanting to take casualities, will always be our strength.

I do not know what we will do about Iraq but we broke it and now it is ours, like it or not, we have to find a way out that both Nations can live with.

have a great evening, Norm. peace ruth

We are "greatful" for Durbin, while Bush is "running out of options".

Sounds like everything is status quo here on IB.

Greatful and Hopeful,

Steve

To be as delusional and dim-witted as some hardcore republican supporters is just mind-boggling.

For almost four years since this ill-fated mission in Iraq, with all branches of government under Republican control, the world's mightiest military has been stunningly unable to defeat an enemy equipped with no army, no air force, no navy, no daisy cutters, and no armored vehicles, save the sheer will to defeat the invaders. What if they had all this?

Is it not yet clear that victory is an illusion? I suppose if you are as dumb as Bush and some his nutty supporters, you would still see illusion as reality.

To all who are staunch republicans, let me ask you this: What if 9/11 turned out to be an inside job, would you still back the nut in the White House? If you did, it would not surprise me the least. After all, you would have to be extremely deficient to remain loyal to this administration and this president in the wake of such monumental blunders and colossal waste of innocent lives and hard-earned taxpayer dollars!

Bush is too stubborn to admit mistakes, he never has and never will, most probably. This is a man who loves to kill. As governor of Texas, he never once commuted a death row inmate to life in prison, even when circumstances indicated that there might have been reasonable doubt! When he was a kid in Texas, he relished blowing up frogs in neighborhood fields with firecrackers and BB guns. Perhaps at the end of his reign of terror, he may check himself in at the Mayo Clinic for treatment.

Did I really mean to say Greatful, or just plain grateful?

Steve

Hello Everyone

Been online a lot today doing research on tires so I have been checking in here a IB much more than usual.

Noticed some more stuff to comment on,

Ron, writes,"the world's mightiest military has been stunningly unable to defeat an enemy equipped with no army, no air force, no navy, no daisy cutters, and no armored vehicles, save the sheer will to defeat the invaders. What if they had all this?

First, let us get something straight, they are not defeating us, the USA, they are defeating their own, killing their own and that is why we are defeated, we cannot stop them from killing each other. If they were just going after our troops we could handle that and ultimately defeat them, but they are killing each other and using our presence as their fuel to burn the fires of sectarian hatred. Yea, they got the upper hand with just a few IED's here and there but those IED's have killed more Iraqis than all our bombs, tanks, and soldiers could have or would have. It is not something to be in awe over, but it is something we, our President and his Secretary of Defense should have expected from the very beginning of this sad and sorry mess.

and by the way, this, "What if 9/11 turned out to be an inside job, would you still back the nut in the White House"

Really, 9/11 an inside job?

Ruth,

You just wrote a pile of horse dung!

If they are not defeating the US, then the US must be defeating them, right? If such is the case, why has the US not yet been able to declare victory, pack up and get the hell out of there? And why has the "President" not yet gone on telivision to delare: "Misions Accomplised; the War is over?"

Watch, Iran is next!

Ruth, I hope you are going senile! Have a nice evening in New York?

"And we have given the Iraqis so much. We have deposed their dictator. We dug him out of a hole in the ground and forced him to face the courts of his own people"

I remember that on the eve of the war, Bush offered to stop attacking and killing Iraqis with shock & awe, if Saddam would run away from Iraq.

So is this talk of 'giving Iraqis so much' nothing but a humbug?

Dear Ron

I back Ruth up on her position. Ruth is being kind, btw, imo, when she says "but it is something we, our President and his Secretary of Defense should have expected from the very beginning of this sad and sorry mess." -- in fact many advisors -- and Colin Powell, too -- did tell the pres and his staff that this was exactly what would happen. If the low-IQ face pres and the real pres Cheney didn't believe them, they should have looked looked all the way back to our own revolution, and how we came to beat what was considered the world's mightiest army at the time. In Iraq, we created a conflict we can't win in the classic sense. We interceded in a country's internal tensions, and we did it with no social, cultural or diplomatic sensitivity, at the highest levels. No matter how much work was done to bandage situations as they occurred, by mid-level people and the armed forces on the ground, the effort was on the road to where it is now, because leadership had its head in the wrong place. The situation as it stands was the only possible outcome, given the stupid stupid leadership. And greedy greedy leadership, too. The current need for escalation was predicted by those same advisors. It's a sorry thing when a leader's own advisors can say "told ya so!" so often, so rightly. The pres has finally come around and sees the reality, and now he's trying to staunch rivers of blood with a kleenex. Stubborn man.

Dear Ron, Ruth

I commented just now, but my comment was held for review, I think because I used a word that's a synonym for "dumb" too many times in a row. Maybe it'll make it through in a day or so.

Anyway, night-nite for now.

love, Heath

from a previous post
"For almost four years since this ill-fated mission in Iraq, with all branches of government under Republican control, the world's mightiest military has been stunningly unable to defeat an enemy equipped with no army, no air force, no navy, no daisy cutters, and no armored vehicles, save the sheer will to defeat the invaders. What if they had all this?"
I don't really think this is true ,the military are designed to kill people and break things , and take ground as you do it , at that I will still bet on our military verses any other on this world. The problem is , is that our military are not designed to be police force and social workers , or peace corps for that matter . Don't blame the militery if they are not good at doing what they were not trained for....

After reading “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History,” by Norman Finkelstein, and Jimmy Carter’s “Palestine: Peace not Apartheid;” you know . . .

I could quote volumes, alas let us not ‘go there’ . . .

I listened to Russ Feingold talking to Keith Olbermann tonight, and he was saying the predictable things about how Bush has just totally screwed stuff up, same with Voinovich and Biden and Obama and Hagel (the Chuckster rocks!!!!!!!) . . .

But I tell you what, as the military juggernauts’ of the United States and Israel have had their way, and have humiliated and continue to do just so, not only to our Muslim brothers in the Middle East (in the U.S.’s case everywhere), but also entirely, repeatedly, disregarding world consensus; the forces here in America having indoctrinated us with being the ‘good guys’ since we were all little lads and lassies . . .,

is complete bullshit!

So go ahead the ‘powers that be’ and with the support of your ‘patriotic’ constituents, maneuver another Gulf of Tonkin right off the Iranian coast, get your ‘remember the Maine’ or ‘remember the Alamo’ or ‘never again’ battle-cries honed into cute little soundbites that get that good old vengeance blood flowing . . .

Because as now even Jewish-Americans act, ACT, more ‘American’ than even the Anglo-Americans do, there is something ominous in the air, call it intuition, I don’t care; but what ‘we’ are doing right now has a lot of religious bullshit, and greed, compounded with the need to corner that (oil-market) commodity, and naturally ‘our’ half Jewish ‘American’ government Israel must protect!!!!

Aye there be in the air a mephitic stench most foul, as certainly birds dropping dead presages something most dread . . .

The Antichrist cometh people talking like a lamb but with most hideous evil hid in his breast (mayhap even unknown to himself), and Hollywood for decades has paved his way!

(And come naught at me with that ‘anti-Semitic’ nonsense; forsooth dost thee want to compare Scriptural notes!?!).

And I do not speak Spanish, Latin, nor Hebrew, the English language rules (still yet) in this land!

Chutzpah says the man.

Peace

Please George... do not forget...
We walk together...

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Us, Humans, We have a dream...

(click my united black & white name)

Hello Everyone,

Ruth, I hope you are going senile.

Gee, that is such a nice wish to bestow on another, thank you, for your kindness. You know, there are many people who do go senile because of disease, it can happen to anyone, anytime. Personally, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially, just to offer a glib hit because someone chose to counter my opinion.

have a great day, all, ruth

Ruth,

Oops! I meant to say: "I hope you are not going senile." I will never wish that on anyone. I have always considered your views to be of the intelligent and informed variety. But yesterday your comments did not add up! I suppose everyone can have a bad day at the office!

May you have a nice day in the Big Apple!

Regards...

Ruth has lots of valid points; and we really do have to consider that 9'11 was an inside job.. I been saying so since it happened; but, I guess the americans just can't handle the "truth?" Timothy McVeigh showed the US.. that even their own; are fed up with the apcocolyptic way, the government is surging towards global invasions and destruction....

with loving kindness,
North

Hello Everyone,

Ron, glad to hear you were not "wishing" I go senile. I understand your thinking my comments do not add up, felt that way myself about a lot of comments..

North, really, I think 9/11 is exactly what it was shown to be, 19 men blowing themselves and others to bits for the love of their interpretation of their religion. No inside job at all.

As far as Timothy McVeigh goes, all he showed anyone is that you can get very caught up in causes that are much bigger than yourself and beyond your capablility to deal with. Timothy McVeigh was a very young man with a very old anger, misplaced and explosive.

If ever the words of Jesus were appropriate, the saying, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," these words can be spoken about Timothy McVeigh. His action caused so much pain and suffering for so many and he just had no clue about that, all he ever was capable of feeling was that very old anger which he held onto until the very end of his short life. And, when I say "old" I mean he had the anger of an old man, a hard, hard anger that takes most people a lifetime to nurture, yet he was only 20 years old, he was just hinting at adulthood. I think everytime I looked at him all I could feel was such saddness that someone so young was so lost.

gotta get back to my tire researh..

have a great day, all

ref 18... nice comments north... u maybe on to thing here...i suppose the government never tells the people the whole truth and nothing but the truth...so help us god...whoa!

D...

Diablo >-->(wink.)

North

My first impression on reading the Durbin statement was one of disbelief. On second reading to-day, it ranks as an arrogant and condescending message that says nothing constructive and in some cases is actually contradictory.

To me the tragedy that is emerging is that these discussions continue to be a blame game between political affiliations and one up-manship. As an outsider looking in, what strikes me most about the Senator's views is that he speaks glowingly of what Iraq has 'received' from the US and the heavy price that the US has had to pay. While fully understanding the sense of loss and sympathise for the grief that has befallen so many people there, I find the total lack of concern for what the people of Iraq have undergone and are suffering, not even a mention of it anywhere, as crass and crude. If this is indeed a reflection of what the Democrats can contribute, nothing is going to change.

The Joint Statement from the Democrats does lay out some steps forward and I hope that these will be refined as they get down to discussing it in detail.

Personally I feel that a time frame of 6 months is unrealistic and would in fact be around 12 to 18 months. However, a realistic time frame needs to be worked out and adhered to. This time must be utilised to repair Iraq's security and economy simultaneously.

An international diplomatic engagement is absolutely essential. Here again, as an outsider, the wording is, to be charitable, curious: "which reflects the continuing obligation of the international community to help stabilize Iraq". For heaven's sake please stop talking to the world as if it were a child!

It is unfortunately extremely disappointing to not find a single mention about Iraqi interests and what needs to be done to help that country rehabilitate. The whole emphasis of this statement seems to be around getting out of Iraq with very little interest in what is left behind. Things will not heal themselves, they will get worse if not treated properly and responsibly, by the US and the world. I know I sound pessimistic right now and part of it is because I am disappointed by what Bush said and also now by what I see in this statement.

I agree with Sen. Dick Durbin that it is time for our country to have a change and pull ourselves out of the mess of the Iraq war. Americans are put more at risk for violence since the start of this war. And our attention of preventing and stopping international terrorism has lead us into a war under false pretenses and meaningless as this one. More importantly the government has allowed extreme poverty to grow in America and in Iraq with thousands of refugees and people under extreme financial distress. The US is part of the UN’s Millennium Development Project, which has the goal of eliminating global poverty. However by examining the conducts of our government, no poverty is reduced. Rather, poverty has increased. It only takes $19 billion dollars annually stop world hunger and poverty. However, more than $340 billion dollars has been put into the Iraq war at a rate of $2 billion dollars per week. Our government needs to realize that it is indirectly funding poverty, violence and hunger, the three things that it pledged and vowed to eliminate. It is time for a change.

I agree with Sen. Dick Durbin that it is time for our country to have a change and pull ourselves out of the mess of the Iraq war. Americans are put more at risk for violence since the start of this war. And our attention of preventing and stopping international terrorism has lead us into a war under false pretenses and meaningless as this one. More importantly the government has allowed extreme poverty to grow in America and in Iraq with thousands of refugees and people under extreme financial distress. The US is part of the UN’s Millennium Development Project, which has the goal of eliminating global poverty. However by examining the conducts of our government, no poverty is reduced. Rather, poverty has increased. According to the Borgen Project, whose goal is to fight global poverty, it only takes $19 billion dollars annually stop world hunger and poverty. However, more than $340 billion dollars has been put into the Iraq war at a rate of $2 billion dollars per week. Our government needs to realize that it is indirectly funding poverty, violence and hunger, the three things that it pledged and vowed to eliminate. It is time for a change.