Dear DK and everyOne,

Good stuff.

What is the same about these three things?

Darkness, Light, Space

The best answer, requires a mental leap. But once across the gap....

The other riddle in the Universe is,

What creates God / Consciousness?

Notice I did not say "created".

To know the answer to this riddle I had to create a concept called the 'NULL UNIVERSE' as I have mentioned here before. This is not the same as a universe of "nothing" / "a void". Of course existence is all about statehood.

There are other questions like what intangible formless thing with no moving parts can perform a function that effects the tangible?

The greatest revelation for the world is that

"there is no travel in the universe"

or put another way

"When one realizes there is no travel, they can go anywhere in the universe."
~MySelf

All this is in Infinite Play the Movie / Web Site for those who have never been there.

However, I wonder if the world is ready to know such disturbing, yet liberating things.

A true test of any theory is the manifestation of practical application. An energy device for example, and new forms of the “appearance of travel”.

Dear DK and Friends:

Your description and analogy of the four forces with Rumi’s love, have not only twisted Rumi’s original message entirely, but also misrepresented the fundamentals of the physics of consciousness as discussed below:

1. Love is absence of any force at all. Force is a physical parameter related to matter alone, which represents body and ego. Rumi’s love transcends ego and body, hence transcends any force.
2. Your stated evolution of the four forces with aging has no basis at all. One or the other, or many, or all may be dominant at any age. A man may become senile instead of wise when old or vice versa. Force of gravity is not a childhood phenomena; often an old man falls due to gravity breaking his hips. Spiritual awakening is not a weak force; in fact, it is not a force at all but a total free will or consciousness. So much for the evolution theory of forces.

Just to remind you that the best of scientific theories based on these four forces have miserably failed to predict the observed universe. The cosmic conundrum refers to the mysterious paradoxes and unresolved inconsistencies experienced by the modern scientific theories such as the general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the big bang model, when applied to predict the observed universe behavior. The big bang model (BBM) has been successful in explaining a number of features of the observed universe in an irksome marginal way. Recent observations into the far universe thru the Hubble telescope show that the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate due to some unknown dark or vacuum energy, which has eluded modern scientific theories. Quantum theory is internally inconsistent in predicting a tremendous amount of the vacuum energy, ironically off from the observations by up to 120 orders of magnitude. The latest (and supposedly greatest) String Theory that was proclaimed to solve all the above deficiencies has been declared to be “Not Even Wrong” but worse by one of its developers.

Overall, the track record of the current theories of science based on these four forces to predict the overall universe has been pathetic. The best of the scientific theories including the Big Bang model can explain less than 4% of the universe in the form of the visible matter; rest 96% is all unknown and unpredictable dark energy and dark matter. To make matters worse, quantum mechanics and string theories predict unverifiable and unseen infinite number of parallel universes and several more dimensions of space beyond the three dimensions experienced by the human beings.

Let us not demean and pollute Rumi’s pure and innocent love with the complexity, chaos, inconsistency, and evolutionary divergence of the incomplete theories of forces of the materialistic science devoid of the fundamental physics of consciousness. The mainstream science has consciously squeezed out consciousness from nature calling it the “Ghost in the Atom”, and limited itself to the inanimate or dead matter alone. The science of forces is a dead science leading to a purposeless universe and life in it. Rumi’s poetry is about life and consciousness emanating from pure love and not forces of death. Love is unifying via dissolution or transformation at free will, but not by force.

Best Regards,

Avtar Singh
avsingh@alum.mit.edu

Oh and speaking of ripping the fabric of Illusion exposing the reality underneath.

If you all remember back in Nov 2005 I wrote here about the coming of the Secret Movie.

It was just mentioned on Larry King this last November and at the end of this Month, around the 31st Oprah will do a show on it with Rhonda Byrne the executive producer and others. Remember Oprah is a favorite amongst even people in Iraq, most have satellite TV you know.

I suspect is will trigger a major ripple of higher consciouness, enough to tear the fabric of Illusion.

I am sure they will touch on some quantum physics etc. and that subject matter we speak of in this thread.

What some of you might not know is where the Secret Forums are that gave rise to this phenomena.

If you click my name it will take you to a link that leads you to the secret forums.

With another link to the 9,000 year old source of many things.

Well..you hijacked and stole Rumi's thread.

So, don't say "two", say "not one".

A loose translation by Coleman Barks:

"Let the Beauty We Love"

.

Today, like every other day, we wake up empty
and frightened. Don't open the door to the study
and begin reading. Take down a musical instrument.

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

.

And a Amen to that!!!
May The Force be with you.
My spiritual inertia moves to a tune.
Inflation motivates me to sing the lyrics.
It's the song we all know, don't try to remember.

Dear DK,
It is true that love is what makes us see no difference between ourselves and others. But it is not a MECHANISM that one can create or somehow invoke. It is there but you cannot prove its existence by means of a scientific theory. You just know love is there. That is what Adwaita says not me!
It is also possible that the four different types of forces are indeed one and the same. We did not know mass and energy are one and the same before Einstein came up with his formula! I am not enough of a physicist to argue that the four forces are really one. But Adwaita says that you cannot get consciousness into any scientific formula. A scientific formula would provide basis for experimental verification and therefore observation by senses or at least inference by logic. Adwaita says consciousness cannot be observed by senses, measured by instruments, or inferred by logic. You just realize it is there in all and without it, the universe cannot exist.

I always kind of figured gravity for Love. You know it is the one thing that is the one of the four? not totally explained by quantum physics. At least that is my understanding. It's like an attraction.

I still find myself amazed playing with magnets, some intangible that effects the tangible.

For sure the answer to mysteries of the universe are right in front of our nose... or maybe we should be looking behind us :)

It is my understanding that the Universe is technically expanding away from the observer.

There is no center of the universe other than the self / the instruments that are measuring from which it is shown to be expanding.

Nextly the only thing scientists have ever seen, not with their own eyes. Is data, which is what instruments produce.

Instruments produce data, what we experience is data. We do not directly observe any of this stuff with instruments and for that matter even with our own brain. It is all data which is the next best thing to being there, and you can't be there if you are here, and you are always here, never are you there.

An information universe.

One might suspect aging of the body is all about data transfer failures and corruption.

I have given several clues, to a great insight, and there will be a formal presentation when the time is right. There is still a lot to be understood in the universe even with this one great insight, and at least one thing that will never be picked apart.

Love is still the only thing that counts and is beyond all data.

And if you think about it, one spends all day creating new data.

All something to ponder to say the least.

Ref#2

Dear Dr. Avtar

You can fight reason with reason, but, who can fight unreason with reason...?

Make "unreason" your ally, and God! see how unbeatable you become in your arguments!

Dear DK and All!

Please excuse me for my comment will be a bit too long. But seeing the importance DK has given to what we are discussing here and also that it so revolves around what my book Self Designed Universe is all about, I think it will be worth the effort to write and read it.

First I would like to acquaint you all with my two experiences, which finally resulted in my having the vision of all evolution taking place in terms of four basic forces. The first I call my ‘first experience of oneness’ and is being reproduced below:

*****
My First Experience of Oneness

By the age of 25 I had completed my degree in Civil Engineering, joined govt. service, got married and fathered two sons. For the next about three years, while my friends and colleagues were busy building up their careers I found myself lost in what one may say are the eternal questions of mankind: Who am I? Where have I come from? Where am I supposed to go after my so-called death? Has my being, my "I" some permanent point of reference or is it merely a chance bubble floating meaninglessly in the wilderness of space? What is space? Where this world ends? What is beyond that? Could it be that all this (alluding mentally to the world around) never have been? Were there then to be no.. nothing …forever….f o r e v e r….. N E V E R…?

Then one day while I was sitting all alone in my brother's rented flat in a big city, suspended from my govt. service, separated from my wife and two children, diseased of unattended body and dejected of unanchored mind, something entirely unexpected happened. Something like lightening but unaccompanied by usual light and thunder seemed to flux out of my head upwards, encompassing simultaneously somehow the whole of the universe into its fold…

Actually it is not easy to describe such an experience…For, initially it so overwhelms your being that you lose all your sense of separateness, of individuality. And at long last when you regain some semblance of your sense of separateness, of individuality even then something like what the scientists call Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - simply put which states that at deeper levels you can know one aspect of reality only at the cost of the other - inhibits its truest recollection much more description: in clothing it with words you tend to lose its essential stuff, its essential beauty, in trying to capture its essential stuff, its essential beauty you increasingly get lost to the world of words…

It was not something which had happened to me as say an ordinary incident or even accident would happen to me: a happening, happening to me as something separate from ‘me,’ so that I could simultaneously act as an observer and a participator, so that I could 'note it down' as it happened. It had somehow involved me totally: it had somehow involved even that part of me which was supposed to 'note it down,' was supposed to act as the base on which the mechanism of my memory was to function.

Anyway, what a way of finding the answers! Off go rather the questions themselves. Off goes rather the wall itself between ‘me’ and the rest of Nature which had actually been the cause of all those questions. The questioner, the questioning and the things questioned had somehow got dissolved into one single whole, into one single woolly unity!
*****

The above verily was what Rumi must have had and what DK very aptly describes as the experience of the Unified Force of Love!

Anyway, some time later I had - obviously as a second step to the above - what I call my insight regarding the whole of evolution taking place in terms of four basic forces and I will describe it below by giving just a couple of paragraphs from the preface of my book. In these paragraphs I will also explain how different disciplines of science, philosophy and mysticism point towards the same underlying one force only in different names:

*****
A sudden turn in my life around middle years first forced me to leave my government job of a civil engineer. Then equally unexpectedly it brought me into contact with the latest in physics - especially with the fact that the scientists have reduced all the forces working in the Universe to four basic ones - thanks to Fritzof Capra’s The Tao of Physics. And lastly, almost simultaneously, it forced me on a long introspective journey – apparently to find my raison d’être in coming into this world - which finally allowed me to revisit my earlier experience of the basic Oneness of All There Is. Then one day as I sat ‘lost’ in the experience, suddenly I became aware of almost a wordless dialogue going on inside me:

"Mystics, philosophers have always spoken of freedom, liberation, nirvana, ultimately for whom and from whom?"

"For this Oneness and from those four forces…"

This was followed in quick succession by the Universal panorama of evolution unfold before my mind’s eyes. I ‘saw’ that the origin and subsequent evolution of species plants, animals, man and so on keeping only our Earth in focus, and of all and every thing up from the Universe as a whole down to the least space-time entity otherwise, is neither the result of some blind chance nor of Darwinian natural selection etc but of the Oneness’ attempts at freedom, liberation, nirvana, or in a word, at disentanglement, from those four basic forces at myriad of hierarchical system levels.

The book in hand presents my attempt to explain the above basic idea further.

It may, however, be added here in passing that in my scheme of things the Oneness of the above dialogue represents the same ‘Super-something’ to which religious people call Soul, Spirit, One, Love or even God, scientists call Supersymmetry, Superspace or even Superforce and the philosophers call Substance or even Supersubstance. So to facilitate a collective description throughout this book, I have coined for that the common name of M.O.S.C or simply Mosc , which will thus stand for 'Matter of spiritual category' or simply for Spirit for the religious people or spiritualists, 'Matter of supersymmetric category' or simply for Supersymmetry for the scientists, and 'Matter of supersystemic category' or simply for Supersystem for the philosophers.

And in the light of the above the import of the above dialogue would also mean that, the origin and subsequent evolution of the Universe down to the least space-time entity is the result: on the part of the Soul or Spirit or even God to seek freedom, liberation, nirvana from four basic forces for the spiritualists; on the part of Supersymmetry to seek to unwind itself from the same forces for the scientists; and, on the part of the Supersystem to seek to display itself through the above forces for the philosophers, at myriad of hierarchical system levels.

*****

Now before I proceed further I may quote next couple of paragraphs to answer my friend Avtar Singh's observation that the four forces explain only 4% of the world and do not say anything about the rest 96%. This world, which I name as the virtual world is very much in the picture in the above story of evolution as explained below. Here are the next couple of paragraphs from the same preface, and in fact in continuation to the above paragraphs already:

******

Moreover, if Mosc (now it will stand collectively for Spirit, for Supersymmetry and for Supersystem) is seeking release, is seeking to get itself unwound from forces in this world, then it must have been wound up into forces in some previous, some inner world. This, in fact, the spiritualists call Hell, scientists call the virtual world and the philosophers call the noumenal world. Rightly called the world of ‘potentia’ by Aristotle, this is, in fact, also the world of our minds as the things come down evolving to our human levels. So to represent collectively that world as well I have coined for that the common name of Movc or Matter of virtual category.

In basic terms it will keep account of a system’s release from forces. In human terms - when we would be calling it our minds - it will keep account of what in Hindu religion are called our karma, but which would again basically be the account of the forces as I will explain it in the body of the book.

In line with the above, I have given the name of Mopc or Matter of physical category to our this world. Though in most cases I would also speak of it as the actual world - for one, to resonate it with the previous two worlds, i.e., the spiritual and the virtual, and for another, to take certain overlapping of the worlds into account as I shall explain it at its due place later on. No doubt I wanted to give this world the collective name of Moac - Matter of actual category, but seeing the difficulty in speaking it I dropped it in favor of Mopc.

In a slight variation of the theme these Mosc, Movc and Mopc worlds, these spiritual, virtual and actual worlds may also be called the Soul, Mind and Body dimensions of the Cosmic Game of Life.

*****

The Unified Force in fact acts through the agency of this virtual world to manifest four forces described phenomenon in the actual or physical world. Moving forwards, which is really why actually we first experience change in our behaviour and only then manifest that in the actual or outside world. Here again are a couple of paragraphs (I am especially giving these as DK is interested in finding the factors which bring about chnage in behaviour:

*****
To see that these variations in behavior are the most basic thing, let us just go into what J.Bronowski has to say relevant to this, in his book The Ascent of Man:

"We must always remember that the real content of evolution (biological as well as cultural) is the elaboration of new behavior. It is only because behavior leaves no fossils that we are forced to search for it in bones and teeth."

And from this one can see for oneself how far our theories which go only as far or deep as these surface variations (symbolically as far as these bones and teeth) could give us a true picture of the process of evolution.

Obviously, the true picture would only be known when we would find out the underlying cause of the change in behavior itself. And which is thanks to our evolving through four basic interactions as explained above -certainly the theme of this book.

We may also explain the above at the level of our species: At a certain stage of its life our Earth - our Earth’s ‘I’ - would quantum jump from its ‘youth’ to its ‘middle age’, that is to say, from its center of electromagnetic interactions to its center of strong interactions; that is to say, from its species of animals to its species of man. Then it would reorganize its whole virtual and actual worlds around this newly formed ‘I’ or center. From the deepest within, this reorganization process would throw out variations in the previous world of animals to give rise to the species Homo sapiens, while from the outside it would seem that there arose chance variations in the species animals, and that, then the species animals went on selecting them for its survival, becoming in the process the species man. (What an irony even in this description! The species man now seems to be hell bent upon destroying these very species of animals in one way or the other!!)
*****

In fact DK, my whole book is so pertinent to your project that even at the cost of being thought of as outrightly presumptuous I would like to suggest that you put a couple of your researchers on it to elicit more and more relevant findings from it. I will of course give some more specific answers in my next comments.

Dear DK and all,

Regarding your last post i would like to add another view to it.

Remember, i am not a physicist, scientist or practice any discipline. I am just a housewife who experienced something so extraordinary that it gave me some special insights that enabled me to understand for instance Harb's book, but also almost anything that can be written about the subject. Not so much in a mathematical or scientific way but more from inside. And i believe that everyone, and i do mean everyone, has a valid standpoint in this. There are more than 6 billion views on it that are valid :)

Regarding the infinity of life's energy i would like to add that the 5 graduated planes can also be experienced in the opposite way. It is the same like breathing in and breathing out. And that is exactly what the Universe is doing. And this is exactly what i experienced although i will never be able to proof it. Most learned people call this a hallucination, but i do not mind cause it changed my life forever and for the better.

So in my vision you travel from true Home to the first of the other 4 planes and during your "physical" life you experience them as four forces spiralling through you up and down, giving you the experiences and lessons you came here to learn. When you complete your lessons here you unite again with true Home and then it all starts again, but spiralling on a higher level. That is why i think this theory of Spiral Dynamics is so interesting.

There is still so very much to learn and to discover. In fact humanity is still only in its baby stage :). If we could only be open for this tremendous adventure without prejudice in any discipline, that is my intention. Only thing i want to do is learn, learn, learn and keep learning :)

Love

Dear Avtar Singh, we go through four basic forces or interactions each second, each minute, each hour, each day, each year and so on. So you are right that we experience all of the above forces always, but at the same time, we not only add those minutes, hours, days linearly but to what I call superimpositionally as well, with the result the cumulative effect of our going through those interactions in the above way results in our being under the sway predominantly of gravity in our entire childhood, of electromagnetism in our entire youth and so on. Each day we go through what are called four biorhythms of physicality, emotions, intellect and intelligence, yet adding these days superimpositionally we also go through the like four phases in our whole life. A tree is developing as a whole tree daily, yet we can see that in its first phase it is mostly strengthening its trunk, in second developing more and more branches, in third, developing more and more leaves and flowers, in the fourth, finally the fruit. Yet, we can also say that it has been developing the fruit from day one as well.

Moreover, if a particular child is unable to get up or a particular old man goes senile rather than become wise it does not mean that childhood as a whole is not predominantly in the realm of gravity, or old age as a whole is not predominantly in the realm of wise age.

Love, Harb

Richard, because of cyclical progression at all levels, gravity - with which the things begin - and weak force - with which the things end - get sort of joined back to back. That is to say, increasingly become alike. Which is why early childhood and later old age too are thought to be alike. Which is perhaps also why the universe begins with sort of dead matter and ends in the collapase of a star again in dead matter.

Regards, Harb

Dear DK

Your original post, with its loose, casual linkages, made sense metaphorically. The more tightly structured presentation above weakens the concept and argument, for me.

Physical forces are omnipresent and omniactive when viewed in a universal context, and their local effects are relatively discrete and measurable, which is why they "live" in the realm of science for us. Snip the stem of an apple from its branch, and it will fall in a predictable, measurable rate and direction, for example.

But psychological and spiritual development of individuals is an evolutionary result of the interaction between mind and causal, accretionary experience of the world. It's more "organic" in the sense of being unpredictable and hard to measure or deliberately cause.

Common structures of the brain allow patterns to arise that are common in most people, and we name them this or that. But controlling and measuring the development of a human is not like controlling or measuring the fall of an apple from a tree. The mind-object, and the forces acting on it, are complex. We have whole segments of our populations devoted to attempting to control and measure the development of humans. We call them teachers, priests, coaches, gurus, guides, doctors, etc. Our relation to human development takes place within the same realm in which it occurs. We cannot get distant from it, to observe and measure it objectively. We are the development, we are observers within the event and we affect it by being there. The reams and leagues of words we use to try to define human development are an expression of our struggle to get some distance from it, to see it clearly.

Poets and mystics have a profound and powerful effect on us. By intuitively stepping around the problem of objectivity and fully entering into the subjective world of the mind, they can report back to us, so to speak, through metaphor. Their excursions into self, poetically or lyrically expressed, seem very valid to us: A metaphorical telling by a poet or mystic of an inner experience allows us to see ourselves as if in a distant mirror, it gives us a sense of recognition, and emulates the comfort of obectivity a little.

Thus the reaction of horror from some readers, to the mixing Rumi and physics. In fact, this is a valid intuitive response. It recognises and lauds Rumi's poetic descriptions of the mind's inner state and its relationship to the universe, as being more lucid and valid to the individual than scientific writings on the development of mind.

Even in the simplest, least-developed poetry of ourselves and others, we can see ourselves with a little clarity and objectivity. Before coming here to read and comment on your post, I read something written 18 months ago by someone else. I was surprised by its content, because it was was strongly parallel to something I wrote 10 months ago. I was forced to confront, once again, how much commonality underlies all our lives. By instinct, we give first attention to what's different between us. We struggle to learn and understand what's common. Yet viewed from some distance of time, we're mostly the same, we're just tiny variations of the original human pattern, which was just a tiny variation of the original primate pattern, and so on, going back through time to the start of the universe.

love, Heath

Dear Heath,

Just because you do not always see me,
that does not mean I am not watching.
Skipping over you to play leap frog,
simply does not happen; see turtle.

"I Have Five Things To Say"

I have five things to say,
five fingers to give into your grace.

First, when I was apart from you,
this world did not exist, nor any other.
Second, whatever I was looking for was always you.
Third, why did I ever learn to count to three?
Fourth, my cornfield is burning!
Fifth, this finger stands for Rabia, and this
is for someone else. Is there a difference?

Are these words or tears?
Is weeping speech? What shall I do, my love?
So he speaks, and everyone around
begins to cry with him, laughing crazily,
moaning in this spreading union of lover and beloved.

This is the true religion. All others
are thrown-away bandages beside it.
This is the sema of slavery and mastery
dancing together. This is not-being.

I know these dancers. Day and night
I sing their songs in this phenomenal cage.

.

Early and silly, yet this song came to mind.
Has someone been listening to it?
"I Started A Joke", by The Bee-Gees.
It's on Me2! Keith~

Dear Richard, the universe is the result of our (each entities')interaction with what greeks called plenum, and what we may call ground consciousness or supera universal consciousness or super quantum potential or whatever, which we do in terms of the pulls and pressures of the forces - also taking into account the range of the respective forces - and accordingly it changes its form and area of expansion. And indeed, when we have moved beyond all forces there is no universe left, so it is just like our producing a dream universe out of ourselves and obviously in terms of our virtual or latent wishes and desires and as those wishes and desires are fulfilled the dream universe just vanishes, into our basic consciousness.

It is the same with each entity - living or non-living.

Here is how I have tried to explain it with he help of an analogy in my book under chapter "From Singularity to Structures":
*****
Having given an idea of how the structures are likely to form with the help of a dream metaphor, now we would try to give further details of their formation with the help of an other very simple analogy.

Imagine a sea. Moreover, imagine this to be completely stand-still, completely undisturbed.

This ‘sea’ actually would not be like our ordinary seas but would be, in fact, our infinitely expanded Night spiral or simply ‘night’ discussed in the previous chapter. It would be, in other words, the plenum as postulated by some ancient Greeks and further explained by David Bohm as below:

'It is being suggested here, then, that what we perceive through the senses as empty space is actually the plenum, which is the ground for the existence of everything, including ourselves. The things that appear to our senses are derivative forms and their true meaning can be seen only when we consider the plenum, in which they are generated and sustained, and into which they must ultimately vanish. This plenum is, however, no longer to be conceived through the idea of a simple material medium, such as an ether, which would be regarded as existing and moving only in a three-dimensional space. Rather, one is to begin with the holomovement, in which there is the immense ‘sea’ of energy... This sea is to be understood in terms of a multidimensional implicate order....'

But now forget the above definition of plenum or ‘sea’ for we would fail to imagine them, and instead revert back to our simple sea - completely undisturbed, standstill.

Now go to its bottom with a number of boulder-like ice pieces of various sizes, which analogous to our forms which are made of Mosc and into Mosc would ultimately return, are made of water and into water would ultimately dissolve .

Take some canon like thing alongwith to fire these pieces up from the bottom. All these pieces on being thus fired or sent up would create their disturbances in the water of the sea before finally dissolving indistinguishably into it. This dissolving process would begin from the very beginning, and as they would go on dissolving so would they go on changing not only their own shapes but the shape of disturbances they would create in the water as well.

Their changing shapes would be like the changing shapes of the species ‘minerals,’ plants, animals, man etc. for our level, and the changing shapes of the disturbances would be the changing shape of our universe. With the only difference that the changing shapes in our and our universe’s cases would be according to four basic forces or interactions.

Change the size of the piece to a bigger one and you would have the Universe of a bigger spiral as we discussed them in the previous chapter. Change the size to the biggest piece in your arsenal and you would have the Universe of the biggest spiral giving the end species as some far-off stars.

With the dissolution of each ice piece into water, its respective Universe – the disturbances it created – would also follow suit in due passage of time. This is how at the end of each fourth species era the fourth species of any system takes it alongwith to Mosc or ‘night’ as we have said somewhere back. And this is how the fourth species of the whole Universe, i.e., some far-off stars would take it to Mosc.
******

So indeed, at the end we are left to ourselves, finally to ourselves as an indistinguishable part of One, God or what you have. Drop has dissolved indistinguishably into the sea.

Reading DK's weak force and unifying force above I felt like giving how I have described the weak force in the book and our (a sages) journey from weak force onwards towards unified force (Mosc may be understood as our soul or spirit etc):

******

4. The weak interactions:
The last on the line, the ‘spirituo-virtuo-physical’ cause of the development of old age in our individual lives, the development of ego-transcending old-age wisdom in our individual lives, the development of ‘species’ known as masters and sages - or even ‘polymath’ geniuses as Carl Sagan described those rare men who are equally at home with many subjects at the same time in his book The Gardens of Eden – further within the overall species of Homo sapiens, are called the weak interactions .
If in the previous case, Mosc felt weak because the interactions were strong, man felt helpless because the interactions were suffocating, in this case Mosc will be the master because the interactions are weak: just weak attractions and repulsions, unable to force one to hop around like mad as is the case with other interactions, especially electromagnetic and strong interactions, the ‘propellers’ of animals and man respectively.
In ‘dry’ description, these weak interactions operate at the level of ‘leptons’ - sub-atomic particles in a way further subordinate to the hadrons, just as hadrons are to atoms and atoms are to molecules - and are some 10-12 times weaker than strong interactions. Beta decay is a form of weak interactions. Virtual bosons called W and Z, and actual neutrinos are said to be their ‘messenger’ particles. Remember our friend photon, that arrow of love!? Here neutrinos may be said to be the arrows of compassion - of identity, of oneness - supposed to be felt by the masters and sages for the whole of humanity. In other words, these neutrinos will help them to have what the psychologists call transpersonal experiences, though actually those would be trans-everything experiences. Simply because while photons could travel comparatively only small distances and, moreover, could pass through only up to certain depth/fineness of matter, neutrinos could travel throughout the world, nay, the universe, and unhindered.
These weak interactions could be both short-ranged and long-ranged depending upon whether these are transmitted by the virtual bosons or the actual neutrinos. At our individual levels and in our simple terms, in the former case an old man, though now not having the same prison-like strong bonds with family members as in the case of strong interactions era will still be feeling oneness with them, will still be feeling weak attractions and repulsions towards them, while in the later case, he will be feeling more one with the world, identify more with the world in general now than with his family members.
Talking in terms of the masters and sages, in the former case, a sage would be showering grace upon his disciples sitting around him – who too would act sort of a family to him - while in the later he would be sitting in Spinozian total oneness with the whole of Nature - though yet aware of Nature.
Beyond even the almost other-worldly neutrinos ‘coupling,’ the sage would be sitting totally oblivious of anything we can speak of, including our Nature as we know it. In other words, he would then be sitting in total oneness with our wordless, particle-less realm of Mosc, with sort of scientists’ Grand Unification state so to say. Or in sort of ‘I am what I am’ state.
The fundamental particles taking part in these interactions, as already said, are called leptons, in which the scientists include our familiar electrons and photons - at first the cause of great confusion in my mind. For, these electrons and photons otherwise take part in electromagnetic interactions. The scientists must be having their own reasons no doubt, but just see how they have hit the nail on the head as they say, to suit what we have been saying all along in this book.
Remember, what is the difference between the experience of an ordinary lover and of that of a mystic? That while the experience of the former is circumscribed at the base mainly by the electromagnetic interactions, that of the later is circumscribed at the base by the weak interactions? Now from the above findings of the scientists, it is clear that the experience of what we call love must somehow involve leptons. But while it involves electrons and photons in the case of our ordinary love thanks to its being circumscribed at the base by the electromagnetic interactions, it involves other leptons such as bosons and neutrinos in the case of the mystics, thanks to its being circumscribed at the base by the weak interactions.
Perhaps that is why, while all the mystics can be lovers if they so desire - and in India we have Krishna of the Bhagvad Gita fame with his large number of gopis (beloveds) to prove that - all the lovers cannot be mystics (there could be exceptions as when after a long time some of those particular lovers may go beyond the mere physical aspect of love; though by then they would have already become sort of mystics!).
If you would like to have an exercise for your mind for the present, try to solve the question: Why masters and sages have far greater influence and for far longer periods on the populations than the philosophers and thinkers? Try it seriously in the light of our discussion of interactions above -that mystics are the product of the weak interactions while the philosophers are that of the strong interactions. Hint: all the known particles in the world ‘couple’ to the weak force...which can affect transmutations in the particles...often propelling the products to high speeds...their carrier neutrinos having sort of a network throughout the world...
If you wouldn’t laugh, I can give you a hint even in a very simplified language: The sages can influence even the ‘plants’ and ‘animals’ (if ‘minerals’ would be too much for you) among us, while the philosophers can influence only the human beings. And how many do you think are really human beings among us?
Anyway, don’t let us lose heart for we all are ultimately going to become sages. Let us for the time being take leave from these mighty interactions and venture forth to the next syllable of our Mosc theory.

Dear DK and friends.
I agree that our Spiritual Masters stated that Consciousness (same as Parabrahmanand) is beyond the first three, the physical, astral, and causal planes. Everything in these three planes to which the universe belongs, comes from consciousness and is also made up of consciousness. Our Masters gave several analogies to explain this concept: Consciousness is like water in the ocean while the universe is waves of the ocean. Consciousness is like the screen on which a movie plays while the universe is the pictures of the movie appearing on the screen. Consciuosness is like the clay out of which all pots of different sizes and shapes are made off. Consciousness is like the space which is inside a pot and outside a pot but when the pot is broken, there are no inside and outside, there is just the space with no breaks. So, on and on. It is all explained very clearly in Adwaita. The universe comes into existence when a Sankalpa (thought) originates from consciousness. Adwaita does not describe a process by which the Sankalpa is created. It is like - God said let there be light and there was light. Apart from Adwaita Puranas attempted to describe a process of gradual creation and evolution of the universe but none of those descriptions do not stand logical scrutiny. So I wish best of luck to all those who are trying all over again to explain in a scientific way, how the universe is created from consciousness!

Dear Harb,
Talent, innovation, inspiration, creation, etc. all come from "above" as you said in the other post. Lack of clarity in thinking and confusion comes from the first three planes. So, the final product which belongs to these planes may become messy although the source is perfect and pure. When one is claiming to use a scientific approach to solving problems, it is only natural to expect clarity in thinking and consistency in expression.

Spirit, soul, light, love, consciousness and so on down the line ultimately are (forms) and phenomena appearing and disappearing back into (The Void) which is infinity. It is called Void for a good reason even though language really can't make an accurate description. (The void voids out all of these temporal, illusory forms)! Material forms such as forces and particles are very far down the line. To focus too hard on these is like running around in a circle (thinking) you might get somewhere! Love itself is an illusory force. A necessary one however for this plane of existence due to the fact. Love is just non-locality in disguise. It shatters the illusion of separateness. DK you radiate tons of love. That love goes about doing it's thing!
Todd

Dear DK,

I am enjoying the Rumi thoroughly, too.

On poetry as a unifying force I have discovered some deeply intriguing things, and the observations since that discovery have held rather true.

The mystery of the Prieure du Sion sets forth the rumor that it is lead by succession of fellows named John or Jean and that these people were true to art and science and that their art was honed scientifically and sometimes mathematically.

I became intrigued with Jean Cocteau and the rumor that he had been a possible Prieure du Sion. I had a fondness for his simple art, too, and found I had drawn something similar once during a very odd writing session about 5 years earlier. As Harb described, I, too, sometimes write and go back and read and feel something of higher intelligence wrote it and that I would not be able to explain it.

So I looked into Cocteau and found he was a writer and director.

I got this lovely old film from 1950 called Orpheus. The poet, Orpheus, is in love with the Princess of Death. She travels between this world and death and teaches him to do so as well. In the film, Orpheus is a 1950's French poet. You have to do your own research on the Greek meanings.

So, mind you, it is limited by special effects of 1950 quality, yet done rather well. She teaches him to go through mirrors and listen to the radio for his poetic inspiration.

It is so very amusing how much is really captures the inspiration of creativity and the ups and downs of a deeply creative poet, with which all writers, poets, lyricists, scientists, physicists, etc. can identify. It puts a funny explanation to astral travel as they jaunt speedily past the mirror and traverse the worlds of death, coming back inspired.

So all this and then a few years later I am watching a program about the things that possibly inspired Davinci Code and the fellow being interviewed says there is supposed to be a big clue in the room he is in.

Well in the room he is in is a simple piece of art by Cocteau and it is of Mary.

I don't know if Cocteau and his artistic crowd were jokesters who enjoyed a hoax or if they were privvy to the PdS legacy of knowledge.

Nonetheless, once I saw Orpheus, I began to understand poetry and lyrics in a whole new way and I could spot the ones that had gone deep into the abyss, nearly died, and came back. They are so much better than the ones who tread water. Castaneda said Don Juan said people who had died (near death but he called it death) then lived life in precognition. It seems to hold true.

Dear DK
If the purpose behind these discussions is to understand love,then I think it's better to understand it by giving your imagination some wings rather than engaging yourself in such complex scientific discussions.

H.L.Mencken had once said "Love is the truimph of imagination over intelligence".Nowhere in your discussions(except Avtar Singh's)have I found anybody approaching love from this POV.We have straight away moved to love of mystics.What about love of a child for mother or love of a female for a male?

I think we should first try to solve worldly problems before moving on to mystics.The spirit of love can be easily understood by analysing childhood,the purest phase of human life and that with which everybody can relate.By anlyzing childhood factors,one can then apply those factors to bring about love in one's life.(I have done exactly that and written a small booklet:Basics of Love)

I think,since love drips from every baby's face,so that is the proper place from which we should start our quest to comprehend it.It is so simple for a child,yet so difficult for an adult to comprehend it.That is why I have always advocated for introduction of'Love Education'in schools so that in addition to competitive spirit that we adults inculcate in them,they shud not forget the lessons of most beautiful period of their lives viz. childhood.

BTW physicality is the last stage of 'love cycle',
so aren't we starting from backwards by trying to express Love in 'physical' terms like 'Forces'?Can Innocence of a child be defined in terms of a Force???

Hi Ved,
I do agree, Love is not for just for realm of the mystics, and though seemingly contrary to what our eyes and senses may indicate, it is present in every moment.

I enjoy being with children so much - because its fun, love is ever present, and kids move in and out of serious states with such ease :)
~ Kate

Ved, I thought that the purpose of these discussions is to explain how "Love makes the world go around" scientifically. Why mix love and science and spiritual masters? Well, spiritual Masters have a lot to say about Love and the World. Why not use their knowledge to help our understanding? Anything is a mystery only as long as we do not understand it. So also, the Masters are mystics only as long as we do not understand what they say. Since they have a lot of wisdom, it is neither wrong nor foolish to try to understand what they have said.

Dear DK,
Truth is, and whether Physics or Spirituality can ever see 'eye to eye' - well, that doesn't ultimately matter, does it?
Semantics, and proof, can be stumbling blocks, or ...
lead us into greater perception and understanding.

It depends on one's own personal experience, but both science and spirituality as concepts can, in my opinion, reveal Consciousness exists - and I am connected to it - and I am expressing it every moment.

The 'sticking point' has been what Consciousness is and to define it with language many call - God, Source, invisible, pure potential, the realm of all possibilities, unifying field, Oneness, etc.... and what consciousness is made up of - the building blocks, the materials - atoms, molecules, nothingness, etc....

Love is unifying,
and here's to love,
~ Kate

those are pretty heavy thoughts...kate! makes a lot of sense! yeah!

Dear Harb,

I like the title of your book; I think it is a truth. You know the English language is somewhat limited. Sanskrit I think is a little bit more comprehensive. Still language has it's limitations.

I wonder if plenum it is not like a flat line. Something moves through it and it becomes a wave with cycles / duality.

I think you are on to something when you attribute space to have much more functionality then commonly thought. I also see this.

Then again my dog doesn't dwell on this stuff and seems to be quite happy running after balls so maybe ...

Yet my intention is discovery of practical applications found through understanding the universe that enhance our experience.

1.Being able to harness free flowing energy.
2.The ability to move large objects with little effort
3.New forms of travel such that we might meet other civilizations and worlds or in minutes be on the other side of the planet.
4.Bigger better toys to play with
5.The creation of a very nice playing field

Everyone should be able to play and have fun on the planet, not living a life of bad experiences.

The universe is all about infinite play not finite serious tasking, limitation and long term conflict, which sounds like hell to me.

Dear DK,

Quoting you:
"In a way this reminds me of Stanley Kubrick's film -- Space Odyssey 2001"

I went refreshing up my memory at

http://www.kubrick2001.com/

Space Odyssey explained in four parts: Very to the point!

Love,

Dear DK, Harb, and Friends:

The point of my earlier note was to state that Love is free will or consciousness and not a force, which by definition is involuntary and opposite to free will. All the four forces of nature are attractive forces and there may be a possibility to unify into just one overall attractive force – that is what science is trying to achieve.

If such unification is found, it would be exactly opposite to love, because love is an expansive (anti-gravity) energy or field (not an involuntary or externally imposed attractive force), and that is why it is liberating. In Harb’s words, it is “disentanglement” or “unwinding” from the four forces of attraction. Love is a natural state of being of consciousness and not a “Forced” action. The question I have is how and why the concept of Rumi’s love digressed into the topic of four forces of attraction within the confines of matter only and if they could be unified.

In my book – The Hidden Factor: An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality, I have forwarded an approach that integrates consciousness (love, free will, spontaneity observed in nature) into the existing theories of science, specifically Einstein’s theory of Relativity resolve not only the current paradoxes of science and cosmology, but to develop a scientific basis for purpose, love, and unity of oneness underlying all existence in the universe. The results provides very answers to the following what DK is looking for without even being digressed into the no-where-land of unifying the four attractive forces.
“This Socratic Dialogue at one level is trying to demonstrate that it really needs to have a spiritual underpinning which has been hitherto ignored by the reductionist scientific thought processes that regard divine concepts as extraneous.”
The approach presented in my book integrates the consciousness insights of the wisdom of the ages into general relativity. This works as a miracle to unify the material and spiritual domains of reality and demonstrating oneness at the deepest level. This also removes the common misunderstanding expressed by several folks that science and spiritual domains are separate and hence we should leave them alone. If truth is one, which by its very definition is one and only one, then a complete science and a complete spirituality must converge on to the same truth. My book demonstrates that it is true not via some qualiytative, speculative, or metaphysical discussion but by demonstrating quantitative predictions of the actual experimental data and observed accelerated expansion of the universe including the dark energy/dark matter. This vindicates the mathematical and scientific precision behind the wisdom of the ages. What is miraculous is that the results also vindicate the following wisdom of the spiritual masters and Advaita posted by syamala:
“I agree that our Spiritual Masters stated that Consciousness (same as Parabrahmanand) is beyond the first three, the physical, astral, and causal planes. Everything in these three planes to which the universe belongs, comes from consciousness and is also made up of consciousness. Our Masters gave several analogies to explain this concept: Consciousness is like water in the ocean while the universe is waves of the ocean. Consciousness is like the screen on which a movie plays while the universe is the pictures of the movie appearing on the screen. Consciuosness is like the clay out of which all pots of different sizes and shapes are made off. Consciousness is like the space which is inside a pot and outside a pot but when the pot is broken, there are no inside and outside, there is just the space with no breaks.”
A summary of the conclusions and key results of my book are presented in my paper – “In search of the Universal Reality & Purpose” published in Metanexus. The link to the paper is given below:

http://www.metanexus.net/conference2005/pdf/avtar_singh.pdf

If you read the paper or the details in the book, you will see how a consciousness-integrated scientific model can unify and arrive at the one and only truth as described in the following concluding sentence in my book –

“The Law of Certainty supports Einstein’s assertion- “God does not play dice with the universe”. It says that the relative realities could be many, but the ultimate or absolute universal ‘Truth is One and the only One’.

In summary,

Realities are many, Truth is One.
Minds are many, Consciousness is One.
Religions are many, God is One.
Attractions are many, Beauty is One.
Attachments are many, Love is One.

Love & Regards,

Avtar Singh
avsingh@alum.mit.edu

Hi Kate,
Those who love those little flowers called children generally are 'lovely' people themselves.
May this tribe grow exponentially!

Hi Syamala,
You are right that it is not wrong to try and understand wisdom of mystics.But mystics are few while the other agents of love viz. children are many.So why not try to understand first how can children radiate love so easily?

Hi DK
I can understand your predicament in trying to explain that reason is not enough to understand love.I agree that spiritual underpinning is a must too understand such concepts.In the following post I will try to show you how I came to understand love by doing a simple exercise of analysing childhood.

Dear DK
I am reproducing below a part of one chapter of my book to explain how love can be understood without going into formulas etc.

Chapter5:Defining spirit behind Love and Home

Where else to start our learning of these two concepts(Love and home) than from that period in our lives where you get first hand experience of both of them. So let us now analyse our childhood atmosphere because almost all adults cherish their childhood memories the most, which are kept close to the heart as a treasure. On recollecting those memories you will realize that the following factors, amongst many others, acted simultaneously to provide you with the best experience of your life:

(a) Well defined roles of Family members
(b) Forget and forgive attitude with family members for anything and everything,of course after usual fights and deliberations.
(c) Emotional Security.
(d) Blind trust on all family members.
(e) Eulogised each other quite often.
(f) Clearly defined career work i.e going to school.

Let us now study the first factor in some detail. The various family members used to have the following roles:-

1 The Head of the family was supposed to be the Protector of all.
2 The lady of the house used to be the embodiment of love and forgiveness.
3 The Grandparents used to be the Ultimate shelters.
4 The children used to be the little darlings of the house.

These descriptions can help to set role models for adults when they set out to
build their homes.

This leads us to the definition of a home. A home can be described as a place where you get complete emotional satisfaction. When the atmosphere in your house becomes such that you are unconciously convinced at the back of your mind that the family members have forget and forgive attitude towards each other, maybe after some verbal exchange of views, your house gets the basic ingredient to become a home.

And, ofcourse, we should not forget the other factors listed above which together go on to create the warmth in mutual relatioinships that reinforce the foundations of a home. This brings us to that all important, and for the most of us elusive too, factor in our lives called Love about which the ancient Indian saint Kabir had this to say:

Pothi Parh parh jug mooa,Pandit bhaya na koe,
Dhai akhar Prem ke ,Parhe so pandit hoye.

meaning thereby,

The person who has understood the meaning of love stands taller,
Than one who, after mastering countless books, becomes a scholar.

Out of the six childhood factors listed above, we discussed in the last paragraph
the role of the first two factors i.e (a) and (b) in making of a home. Now, if we can bring about factor(c) and factor (d) into play in our homes, with a generous sprinkling of the factor (e) every now and then, we come very near to our childhood scenario which we analysed above. Factor (c) comes when your relationship is able to radiate such confidence in the other fellow that you are there to listen to the wildest of fears/dreams of the person and you will not belittle him/her for that or make a mockery of his thoughts/feelings.Your presence automatically works as support system for him/her. And the ultimate success of Factor (c) is measured by the fact that it graduates into factor (d).This analysis leads us to the conclusion that it is the level of honesty in your support system that determines the achievement of factor (d) in your relationships. Once this factor(d) is achieved, you will suddenly realise that LOVE is the only word that aptly describes this relationship. So we can safely conclude that the defining spirit behind Love can be expressed in two words viz. "Honest Support". It makes your body radiate that divine charm called Love to the person who gets it.

This fact can be corroborated by thinking about the loveliest creation of God . It is very commonly available and our reaction to it is so spontaneous that usually we don’t apply our mind in acknowledging it to be the loveliest creation of god. It is a Baby! By just looking at a baby you will feel like kissing it and spending some time playing with it. Have you ever wondered why does this happen.Why does he look so lovely. It is his innocence which works on you. And what is innocence? It is the ignorance of the world’s ways which leads to uninhibited show of emotions by him [Factor (c)] and blind trust reposed by him on you that you will do him no harm [Factor (d)]. So we again conclude that when factor (c) starts working in your relationships and reaches it's pinnacle by achieving the level of factor (d), love starts radiating from us, much the same way as the magic of a baby works, and we experience Love. Thus "Honest Support" kickstarts Love in life.Love has often been said to be blind. Factor (d) in our above analysis vindicates this belief. Truly, Love is not Love unless it has the power to overlook the mistakes of the loved one.

The last factor in our above analysis i.e Factor (f) is being given prime importance by our education system today. A paying career certainly helps in attaining factor (d) by taking care of the worries of food, clothing , shelter, medicine etc. but, as pointed out in the opening chapter, only upto a certain limit !
.
Since times unknown, poets have been describing different facets of love. Our aim in the above pages has been to discover the spirit behind love so that we can understand such descriptions better and enjoy the glory of love in a more fulfilling manner.But make no mistake here that honesty in your support doesn’t come on it’s own.It may be there for some time but sooner or later, it requires conscious effort and maturity on your part to maintain it that way.Beginning of most relationships are honest but as the time passes Life throws up many situations where your support system is put to test. It is a very fine art to keep the right balance in your behaviour so that the defining spirit behind love never extinguishes.It goes without saying that Time is of great essence in this relationship as the feeling of honest intentions sinks in a human mind only when it is able to pass the test of time consistently.

The sweetness of any relationship is directly dependent upon the level of honesty in it. For relationships , honesty is still the best policy and will always be. Infact, the above definition holds good for all kinds of love, be it motherly, fatherly, sisterly, brotherly and ofcourse that of a spouse. Only when it is expressed, it takes different hues.In this book , we are limiting ourselves to the relationship with one’s spouse because it is the mother of relationships in the sense that it leads to the creation of a home which , in turn , is the birthplace of all other close relationships.

So, now that we know what love is, we can bring about love in our lives instead of blaming it on Luck that only Lucky fellows get love in life. It is 100 per cent achievable and not with anybody specially destined by the Almighty for you but with anybody and at any age. Dream Men and Women are not custom made by god for you but the partners themselves customize eachother by learning to cater to eachother’s needs.

You may also note from the above analysis that love and home complement each other and that’s why their definitions are also intertwined. Hence to obtain best results, the two should not be viewed in isolation.

Dear DK

Let me now show you that if we get a bit imaginative,the mere fact that there are two genders of all species found on Earth is proof enuf for the existence of Unified field of LOVE in Nature.

Let us first try to understand as to why God or Nature created two Genders of almost all species found on earth. Since we can not talk to the Nature directly, we will have to take cue indirectly from other creations of Nature. On looking at Nature's creations we find that on one hand it has created large Oceans, horrendous jungles, huge mountains and an infinite universe and on other hand it has created such tender things like rabbits, fishes, kittens and ofcourse small human babies. In addition, there are old and sick people who are equally vulnerable. Hence, Nature intended to be soft as well as hard in it's creations.

We can conclude from this observation that it was exactly due to this reason that it conceptualised two genders of almost all species found on earth, one to admire, nourish and support all that is tender and beautiful in this world and the other to explore and unravel the horrible and the invincible. Hence, it branched out each species of the pre-historic era into two genders and bestowed each gender with different tools to take care of their respective departments.

But since the very purpose of having a separate species is defeated if both genders have nothing in common, it made it mandatory for both of them to cohabit by making further continuation of the species possible only when they come together.
Once it became clear that the two genders of each species had to cohabit, it became a foregone conclusion that this cohabitation would be fruitful only when the two genders feel the need for each other. This need for each other could be kindled only when the harder of the two genders searches and gets the soft experience from the other and the softer of the two genders searches and gets relief from the harder experiences through the other. So, then the Nature created this need for each other in the two genders and also created that beautiful emotion called LOVE which was destined to fulfill that need by bringing the two genders together and binding them in a beautiful bond.

From the above discussion, anybody can conclude that the Nature intended Men to make this world a better and easier place to live in and it made women to make this world a better and lovelier place to live in so that together they could enjoy this journey of life.

What immediately follows from the above result is that both sexes have different sets of commandments from nature to make this world a better place to live in.Thus, their approach to various issues of the world has to be naturally different. The male of the species were gifted with inbuilt predatory instincts to push the known frontiers and a matching body, mind and brain to protect and defend himself and those under his protection ,from the consequences of such action even in extreme circumstances. Similarly the female species were gifted with an inbuilt instinct for a sense of belongingness and a matching body,mind and brain to cling on to and support those she considers her own even under extreme circumstances.And it does not require a genius to conclude that the harmones like testosterone which are responsible for starting animalistic lust for sex in males are also indirectly forging the sense of belongingness in females.It is the insecurity generated from animalistic tendencies of men which indirectly go on to make a woman feel secure in the company of her man.Ofcourse there are various other reasons that go on to make a woman what she is.

Since both sexes have different roles to play, both have a different approach to life. Women’s approach tends to be more in the nature of caring and sharing whereas men tend to be more cold and analytical in their approach to resolve the worldly matters. It’s ironical,however, that it is this difference in approach which usually becomes the bone of contention between the two sexes. This happens when we fail to realize that owing to the divine design discussed above , a ‘better’ solution will almost always be the one which has the consent of both the sexes. And to make that possible, it is imperative for both the sexes to appropriately understand the nature of each other’s needs.We will discuss this in detail in a later chapter.

There are many facts about the behaviour of men and women that can be explained on the basis of their ‘Natural role’ discussed above. Like, men can now understand why women bring grace and manners in whichever field they venture into and similarly women can now understand why men like these gestures but hardly ever follow them because, for them, action lies somewhere else.

Another conclusion that can be drawn from the foregoing discussion is that in the absence of proper guidance, women are more susceptible to become emotional wrecks and men are more susceptible to become unemotional beasts.We will study in detail and draw some other conclusions from this model in chapter 6 of this book.

The above description of natural roles of men and women can also be used as benchmarks by both the sexes to evaluate themselves and also evaluate the behaviour of personalities which interest them. These benchmarks help one to fight against the injustices done by indisciplined minds. Here ,it would not be out of place to stress the fact that the human body has been made so versatile by nature that it can adjust to innumerable physical and mental environments. You cannot but marvel at the infinite capacity of the human body to live under infinite circumstances throughout the world. The same human being is living in extreme cold conditions at the poles and also under extreme hot conditions in deserts. Similarly, the same human being leads his life as a preist and it is again the same human being who becomes a scientist. He has adjusted himself in such a way that he feels at home under all these circumstances and influences. Thus, a human body is capable of adjusting to changes, both physically and mentally.

Change in attitude of the two sexes towards each other is the goal of this book and it requires inculcating new ideas.So, allow these new ideas to sink in slowly and experience their power thereafter when they merge with your nature to show you a whole new world where each creation of nature fits in so beautifully. After all, ideas rule the world and the mind. Beautiful ideas make you a beautiful person and crooked ideas make you look crooked in other’s eyes and leave your ownself unfulfilled. As discussed above, change in outlook is possible but you will have to exercise the necessary will to bring that about.

Dear Witnesser, if Love is not a force how can it move mountains?

The fact is that the universe goes through eternal cycles of evolution and devolution, in which it continually gets unwound and wound up into forces. Inbetween comes the time when it simultaneously reaches and breaks (at Big Bang) what many scientists have begun to call supersymmetry. It is this supersymmetry, where ALL becomes One, which is called God, Love, One, One Truth, Consciousness and so on. But yet because of the ongoing cyclcial development this supersymmetry also behaves like a superforce by virtue of its creating Big Bang and then the resultant superforce or unified force.

Mystics like Rumi too in fact experience this same supersymmetry (local supersymetry) at the end of any particular evolutionary cycle of their lives.

Syamala, supersymmetry is beyond explanation. It is neither matter alone nor energy/consciounsess alone. It is ALL. It is to what Ramana Maharshi calls WHAT IS, IS. And if one wants to know it, or wants to know anything from the POINT OF VIEW OF IT, one will (first) have to self-experience it. You may as well call it Consciousness but it is a Consciousness which yet is all matter as well. Which is perhaps why many sages right from Shankra have said of the world (not in exact words though): "The world is nothingness, nothingness is God, God is the world."

While we cannot talk much of this One or Supersymmetry or Consciousness, we can talk of anything evolving from it and then devolving into it including our universe.

Imagine a tree developing/getting unwound from a seed. Then imagine it again getting wound up into the like tree in its seed. Then imagine the seed falling to the ground and some day opening up to germinate. This opening up is like big bang and when in the process it becomes one with the whole universe surrounding it, it has experienced supersymmetry as well, as also has acquired force to grow which in this case will obviously be what perhaps science will call the free energy of the earth. Likewise things happen with our universe. The force which makes the seed to germinate and then finally the tree to develop encounters first the matter of the seed and then of the surrrounding earth. Similarly, the superforce or consciousness of WHAT IS IS which makes the universe to grow encounters matter of the universal seed as well as of WHAT IS IS.

Kate, if things were to end with just the experience of Love, there will be no world. Just as after the experience of ordinary love we have to go to the opposite sex and in the process of knowing and 'exploring him/her produce a family etc etc similarly, after the deeper experience of 'Love' we have to further butress it with the science of the day. It is the same case of spirituality intuiting and science/rationality reaching there step by step. It is this thing because of which nature is compelling mystics to stretch their hand towards science (see from their point of view what science is doing and thus help it understand itself and life better) and compelling scientists to look towards mystics now (in the process to help them butress their spiritual experience).

Harb

Dear dr. Singh,

I have read the prescription of your theory with much interest and pleasure and i must say, you tell in somewhat different words exactly the same story as Harbhajan Singh does. So I also fully understand your perception of the Theory of Everything :). In fact in my review of Harb’s book I specifically refer to the fact that every human being has this truth inside him/herself by nature and the only thing one has to do is listen to him/herself and act accordingly, hence: silence, thoughts, reality. Silence the GNM (Gravity Nullification Model) or the host in the atom or MOSC (Matter Of Spiritual Category). Thoughts are the Spontaneity or Consciousness or MOVC (Matter Of Virtual Category) and Reality is everything arising from this which immediately gets entangled into the four spiralling forces in order to become disentangled from it again to become the GNM or MOSC again. This to me is the continuous breathing in and out of the Universe.

Spontaneity arises from simplicity and beauty (other words: appreciation, acceptance, non-resistance – Deepak Chopra), which is the silent field of all possibilities, the fullness/emptiness, MOSC, the Observer, the awareness of the awareness, etc. etc. You can also call it the X-factor and then to me there are more than 6 billion X-factors :).

To me the following is true in my life:

When you suddenly have a new idea, you might also call this Eureka, an enthusiastic energy starts its work spiralling you through four main forces: first gravity in order for you to stay grounded, secondly the doubts that will occur within you about your idea (electromagnetic force), thirdly the urge to proof your idea to yourself and others (the strong force) and then finally, after you have worked it all out, written it down, made it into multimedia or whatever, the fulfilment resulting in the weak force ending again in appreciation, acceptance and non-resistance.

Same is true for instance when you discover some illness: firstly you are as they say: nailed to the ground, then the resistance and doubts arise, then you start accepting it a bit more and think it over and finally you come to the point that you will have to accept it as it is and that brings you back again full circle to non-resistance.

We go these cycles all the time and I guess this is how everything works, also in the universe.
We know it inside but constantly have to prove it outside in numerous ways of which religion, science and psychology, philosophy are just a few to mention.

So we all know the One Truth, each in our own special way. Therefore the ultimate message of Harb’s book is “Live and Let Live”. Perhaps that is the only way to really start solving problems in a Spontaneous way.

So in the end words are Silver, but Silence is Golden, although it is the most difficult art there is in the Universe :)

To me the word Love does not only mean the one Ved describes but also List Of Virtually Everything and then Love becomes compassion.

Much LOVE :)

Dear DK, Harb, and Friends:

Peace!!!

This is my last post since I also believe in mieke’s principle – “Silence is Golden.” However, before I jump with this golden parachute somebody has to answer the questions addressed to me; so let me do that first.

I agree with the observation that maybe we are trying to describe the same elephant –“Love” with our different blind touches. May be the language, the words, the terminology etc defeat us in failing to converge or unify. But let us be clear on some fundamental concepts:

1. Love

Many of us define love as the worldly love between two or more people – love between a mother and child, husband and wife, person and friends, or even between a person and God. Such a love between two separated entities is only relational or relative love, and not the absolute or pure love of the Buddha, Nanak, and Jesus, which is the universal love or consciousness. Such a love requires separatedness or duality and is not a unity.

Is love a force? Yes, if it exists between two separated entities as described above. A force can exist only between a forcer and the forced separated by a boundary between which the force acts. All worldly love defined as such is mostly a force of attraction such as gravity etc. However, the universal love or pure love happens only when the lover and the loved merge into one. Buddha’s love as compassion or Nirvana is the merger or unity into the Shunya – the wholesome consciousness. Jesus’s “love thy neighbor” is not a “force thy neighbor” to love you but to see the one in him and yourself. Guru Nanak described such unity of love by – “When I am, you are not; when you are I am not.” Rumi’s love –the theme of this discussion is also this pure love and not the worldly love. A pure love is Advaita or non-duality. And, when all merges into one, the force also dissolves. So pure love means unity and oneness that cannot support existence of a force of separateness. In pure love, there is no forcer or forced left, they dissolve and unify into the one wholesome truth or consciousness.

Can Love move mountains? May be in scriptures, mythology, convictions, and beliefs of individual people. John Deer, the builder of bulldozers will go out of business the day that happens.

2. The Big Bang and Cyclic Universe:

There seems to be inherent assumption that the Big Bang happened and the cyclic universe is a foregone conclusion. Wrong; these theories are paralyzed with serious fundamental inconsistencies and are being questioned by mainstream cosmologists themselves. Their only hope to unify the four forces, the String Theory, is being disowned by its very developers as “Not Even Wrong”.

My only attempt here is to raise your awareness to a much deeper reality or the truth of consciousness that has been entirely missed from the mathematical formulations of the scientific theories of the obsolete concepts of Newtonian force that has misled us to believe that science can not describe love and spirituality. Let me try to deliver my message again in clear words –

“A complete science that integrates matter and consciousness vindicates the mathematical precision of the spiritual wisdom of the so-called, prophets or mystics or saints like Buddha, Nanak, and Jesus etc. Their teachings are not just metaphysical fluff but if understood and realized thru deep self-introspection provide a precise physical and mathematical description of universal realities such as love, truth, purpose. Science has thus far ignored consciousness due to its focused pursuit of matter alone and this has done a great harm not only to science but to the whole humanity. This has impacted our thinking to the point that we even identify spirituality as a matter of spiritual content (MOSC), as if it is only the matter that matters and nothing else. This materialism is the root cause of the failure of the mainstream science of the inanimate matter that can predict only less than 4% of the universe.”

If I have not been able to get the above key message across, then I have failed to communicate what I intended to.

Now, let me grab my golden parachute of silence and jump off to the next topic. This does not mean that I am undertaking the “Maun Vrata” or an oath of silence. I will be posting soon on the intentblog a series of posts on - Revealing the Mysteries of the Universe that will provide us further opportunities to interact and share our thoughts. If someone has a burning question or comment, please e-mail me at avsingh@alum.mit.edu.

Love & Regards,

Avtar Singh

"and love becomes" compassion.

bingo Mieke!

Dear Dr Singh
I think that the love that you are adressing is at a level different from what i have been discussing.But the whole question that I am trying to address is 'Of what use is the cosmic love,if we don't understand the worldly love?

All of us generally assume that the worldly love is understood by everybody by default and that the cosmic love is a far greater mystery that needs to be unravelled.Well,then tell me which kind of love is going to solve the perennial problems of wars,terrorism,rapes,murders,domestic violence and tonnes of litigation that go with them.I was just trying to be practical by focussing more on worldly love.Millions of lives in this world are wasted due to lack of this worldly love.

Has the love of mystics been able to solve any of the problems mentioned above?So instead of concentrating on cosmic love,my area of interest has been to unravel the mysteries of this worldly love.And believe me,once the human mind understands the worldly love and experiences its benefits,he/she automatically tries to extrapolate it to understand the cosmic love as then self introspection becomes easier to practice.

At no point,I have said that Love at the cosmic level shud not be explored.That search shud also go on simultaneously by those to whom it appeals more than the worldly love.But,please don't mistake that worldly love is more important to solve worldly problems.

Dear Avtar, dont worry, there is no war going on.

If everything originates from One, God, Love, Cosciousness, then surely it must act as a Force as well, even though I also understand your position.

Science calls all the four basic forces four basic interactions because they know that to every action/force there is an equal and opposite action/force. Similarly, when the four basic forces are unified to one single unified force it too has its counterpart meeting with which both produce grandunification as well as big bang. The One, Consciousness, Love you talk is realised at the exact moment of this Grandunification of even Grandinteraction - of what I may call four outer forces and inner forces, of forces of the physical world(body) and forces of virtual world (mind).

Someday it may be known as a model of 'vacuum.' Here i what a Russian scienctist Naan has written about this vacuum and its model with which I fully agree. It is this 'vacuum' to which we call Consciousness, Love, One and so on.:
******
Quote of G.I.Naan from my book:

"A result of the development of physics is the replacing of the picture of the world. The mechanical picture of the world was replaced by the electromagnetic one. The later was replaced by a picture that has no universally recognized name. It has been called, for instance, the relativistic- quantum picture. In our opinion, it would be better to call the picture we now have, the field picture, because it is based on the concept that all is fields. It is difficult to say what picture will replace it. It seems highly probable to me that it will be the vacuum picture of the world."

It describes how we ar arriving at that vacuum, at that Love or Consciousness. Below is something of its model:

"A crude model of vacuum can be conceived of as an infinitely great supply of energy of one sign, compensated by as large a supply of energy of the other sign."

Yes, technically this 'Vacuum', this Oneness, this Love may not be a force, but it definitely gives rise to th superforce of the big bang.

Anyway, all said, what will a grandunification of forces be if not GRANDONENESS and what will that GRANDONENESS be if not One or God or Love or Consciousness? And what Rumi of any body else for that matter must have experienced beyond this oenenss, this LOVE.

OK bye for now till we again begin to talk though only to reach our next silence lol.

Harb

More on Forces...for the attention of DK:

Force of Graviy

System's Special characteristics: Takes Birth, Distinguishes from its ground, background, parentage

-Gave Minerals at species level
-Cave Man at Man's level
-Middle Ages at AD era cultural cycle level
-Science of Gravity (Newton)at science-as-a-system level (science takes birth and in the process distinguishes itself from religion)
-Childhood at individual life level
-Bone cells at cell's level
-First nucleotide base at DNA level

Force of Electromagnetism:

Special characteristics: Attractions, repulsions, loves, wars, hates, travels, movement

-Plants to Animals
-Nomadic Man
-Age of Romanticism, which must also be the Age of Great Loves and Wars as also of travels (Chengis Khan and Marcopolo belong to this era)
-Science of Electromagnetism of Faraday, Maxwell
-Youth
-Blood to Mucle cells
-Second nucleotide base

The Strong Force

Special characteristics: System experiences confinement (or boundary) at its base/core, tends to settle down, makes efforts to off-set the effects of confinement through development of language, communication skills, reason, knowledge etc. In a nutshell, settlement, great tendency to know, coupled with great anxiety.

Resultant Systems
-Primates to Man
-Settled man
-The Age of Reason, of Anxiety
-Nuclear science
-Middle-age
-Nerve cells
-Third nucleotide base

Weak Force:

Special Characteristics: Experience of freedom, tendency ‘to be’ rather than ‘to know,’ tendency to live peacefully and within one’s means and let others live. In a nutshell, to be, to live and let live.

Resultant Systems

-Present Sages, expected Supermen
-Free man
-The Age of Intelligence, Intuition, Freedom. The Golden Age, the Age of Wisdom, the Satya Yuga.
-Old Age
-Super cells
-Push to fourth and final nucleotide base

Note: For more details one may concult my book.

Love and Thanks, Harb

Dear Harb,
Falling in love
is
so
delightful
and neither
science
nor mysticism
can fully
describe it
:)

Thank you Harb
for the insights
and DK, and Mieke,
North, Richard, Syamala,
level7, Tapastry
Ved, Heather,
Diablo and
Keith,
and Avtar

Dear DK,
do you really believe
that science
must be reconciled
to the
Divine
?
I am not sure just what you mean.

With love,
~ Kate

Dear Kate, if only Nature's evolutionary scheme of things would allow us to remain at that 'point' of love for ever!

But no, we are kicked on again. It is like a landing on a flight of stairs and sooner we have to move ahead on to the next landing.

And while so doing one part of our brain/mind brings the next landing to our dhyana (consciousnss), the other part helps us go there step by step. On a greater scale of our cultural advancement, mysticism performs the first part and science the second. But surely, at the destined next landing they must reconcile, to make sure that that is the landing which mysticism had set its sights on as our next target.

Some philosopher has explained this very advancement as that first we bring forth a thesis, then we bring forth its anti-thesis and lastly we arrive at synthesis. It is because of similar reason that we need to synthesize mysticism and science now. And rest assured they are destined to and will be synthesized. In fact they are already only there is difference of words with which they describe the common 'point'. Science calls it supersymmetry, grandunification point, mysticism calls it One, God, soul, spirit.

Anyway, with you I am ready to stop for ever at the first availanble landing looooooooool!

Harb

Dear DK,

Sorry I am unable to find your email address. Please give it here or write to me at harb_singh@yahoo.com

Love, Harb

This has been a wonderful, interesting, educational thread.
It is also a good example of respecting another's viewpoint.
When push comes to shove, down falls love.

In the final analysis it seems to come
down to this...Am I me or am I you?
Am I This or am I That? One? Two?
Is the Whole greater than the
sum of it's parts? Or not?

Is love dynamic or narcissistic?
Can it not be both? One field
containing lover and beloved
is better than two fields
merging without touching.

Love is a feeling. When it touches
something outside, it touches
something inside.

When I touch you,
TAG! You are IT!

IT is IT.
WE are THAT!
THEY are not.

And the little piggie went, "WE, WE, WE!"...all the way home.

Just saw Kubrick2001 and felt that we can make a far better and authentic movie based on my book.

Thinking....

Harb

Dear DK, here is my effort. Hope it serves....

Unified Force, Sub-nuclear Physics & Love of Rumi
DK Matai - January 17, 2007

Harbhajan "Harb" Singh [Self-Designed Universe] and other IntentBloggers have started an interesting dialogue on the Unified Force, Sub-nuclear Physics and Spirituality developing under Maulana Rumi. Synthesising the views of The Great Spiritual Masters and Philosophers including Socrates, Plato, Lao Tsu, Rumi, Kabir, Kirpal and Indian Vedanta, alongside nuclear physicists like Prof Hans-Peter Duerr and Prof Richard Feynman begins to unify all
.
Quite how we got from Rumi -- The Great Spiritual Master -- to the Four Forces -- Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong & Weak Forces -- is a testimony to the poetry of Rumi nearly 800 years ago, who spoke of a Unified Force of Love.

One can conclude from:
1. What is being developed by way of Socratic Dialogue on IntentBlog under the Maulana Rumi string;
2. What eminent nuclear physicists like the Nobel Laureate Prof Richard P Feynman and the Alternative Nobel Prize Winner Prof Hans-Peter Duerr have also argued;
3. What the Great Spiritual Masters over the centuries have reiterated in regard to Advaita or Non-Duality and the Physical, Astral and Causal Planes of the Illusory (Maya) Universe (Brahmand); ParBrahmand or Beyond Universe; and Sachkhand or True Home; and
4. What the Greeks referred to as the five elements symbolic of all the worlds = Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Sky. Socrates referred to the human beings body, mind and spirit in the context of having all five elements, with Sky being the liberating element which only a human being possesses;
is as follows (this is work-in-progress and subject to revision as feedback is received):

1. Force of Gravity

SPECIAL CHARACTERISTICS: SYSTEM TAKES BIRTH, DISTINGUISHES/RAISES ITSELF FROM GROUND, BACKGROUND, PARENTAGE. IN GENERAL SOURCED AT PHYSICAL PLANE IN THE ILLUSORY (MAYA) UNIVERSE (BRAHMAND); CHARACTERIZES GREEK ELEMENT OF EARTH; SENSES PLAY DOMINANT PART IN INTERACTING WITH SURROUNDING WORLD.

=GAVE MINERALS AT SPECIES LEVEL
=CAVE MAN AT MAN’S LEVEL
=MIDDLE AGES (AGE OF ‘FATHERS AND SCHOOLMEN’ GOING BY BERTRAND RUSSEL’S A HISTORY OF WESTERN PHILOSOPHY IN THE WEST AND THE AGE OF SUTRA AND THE SCHOLASTIC PERIOD IN THE EAST) AT AD ERA CULTURAL CYCLE LEVEL
=SCIENCE OF GRAVITY (NEWTON, 1643-1727) AT SCIENCE-AS-A-SYSTEM LEVEL
=CHILDHOOD AT INDIVIDUAL LIFE LEVEL
=BONE CELLS AT CELLS’ LEVEL (PHYSICAL STRUCTURE)
=FIRST NUCLEOTIDE BASE AT DNA LEVEL?

2. Electromagnetic Force

SPECIAL CHARACTERISTICS: ATTRACTIONS, REPULSIONS, LOVES, WARS, HATES, TRAVELS, MOVEMENT. IN GENERAL SOURCED AT ASTRAL PLANE IN THE ILLUSORY(MAYA) UNIVERSE (BRAHMAND); CHARACTERIZES GREEK ELEMENT OF WATER; EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS PLAY DOMINANT PART IN INTERACTING/KNOWING THE SURROUNDING WORLD

=GAVE PLANTS TO ANIMALS
=NOMADIC MAN
=AGE OF ROMANTICISM, (AGE OF BHAGTI MOVEMENT IN THE EAST)AS ALSO THE AGE OF GREAT LOVES,WARS AND TRAVELS (CHENGIS KHAN AND MARCOPOLO BELONG TO THIS ERA)
=SCIENCE OF ELETROMA