DK: You're such a sweet man. Always interacting with every blogger, answering their questions so neatly. Why can't people be like you?

Wonderful presentation Mieke!!

Dear DK,
Thanks for the wonderful leadership you provided.
Dear Meike,
Thanks for the wonderful job you did.

All,
The link where Meike posted all the above material is http://wiki.anhglobal.org/wiki/Holistic_Quantum_Relativity
just in case anyone is searching for it.

Dear DK,

Well, thanks to you this evolution has evolved into a wonderful journey of creativity and everybody that has been involved will agree to this. I couldn't have done it without all you wonderful people working on this project. Moreover it is not finished yet (neither my presentation or our project) and i am convinced that Harb and Avtar Singh will come up with the
right formula resulting from it all. Thank you again for your inspiring guidance.

Hi North, well you know how blissful it is :)
Thanks.

Dear Syamala,

I just finished part seven this morning of the presentation that ended with your beautiful diagram with the heart as an all encompassing whole. To me it meant again: Love lets you create time after time and again :) Thanks!

Dear Mieke,
I am drawn to the center - but wonder just where I am in the lines of the four forces...
Where ever I am, I know Harb is there and you are there too ;)
with love,
~ Kate

Dear Mieke and DK

A wonderful effort!

love, Heath

HI Mieke, DK and all,

So nice to see all of you having so much fun here. I can see I missed a great party. But I have no shame stepping in now and enjoying the picture. :)

Love, Kristin

Mieke, you have done a great job.

Kate, you have found me out!

Love, Harb

Dear DK & Friends:

SUGGESTIONS FOR PATH FORWARD

Thanks for all your efforts to provide and cultivate a viable and constructive platform for nurturing unification of science & spirituality. Also, congratulations to all the team members of the Intentblog to achieve the significant milestones of publishing Quantum Holistic Relativity (QHR) and associated glossary in Wikipedia.

Where do we go from here?

I have a few ideas for consideration and brain-storming by the team. Based on my past experience in carrying out the message of the unity of science and spirituality, I feel that it is a at least a two-pronged effort:

1. Interacting with the Mainstream Science

I discussed this in detail describing the challenge and demands of this task. This is an important task to keep the mainstream science abreast of the potential of spiritual or consciousness based approaches to facilitate resolution of the outstanding paradoxes of the modern science. However, we need to keep our expectations realistic being aware of the fact that mainstream science has its own establishment serving to protect their own business and bread/butter interests that may conflict directly with our mission of unifying science & spirituality. The best outcome could be that they begin to open up the dialogue with us to chart out a collaborative path forward. We must keep a positive attitude remaining aware of the anticipated challenges.

2. Taking our Message Directly to the Common People to Enrich Their Lives with QHR.

The common people involved in their daily lives and facing the day-to-day living, managing the demands of work, family, society, and the world are looking for ways to alleviate their stresses and find meaning and purpose. Many of these folks are well educated, scientifically oriented, and ready to adopt/adapt new insights from our work. We can enhance lives of these common folks via communicating the message of Quantum Holistic Relativity in the following different ways:

1. Seminars & Lectures
2. Media:

a. Series of short videos (DVDROM) on different topics:
i. Scientific Basis of QHR
ii. Understanding the Universe from QHR
iii. Lessons of Spiritual Masters and QHR
iv. QHR & Genuine Happiness
v. QHR & Purpose/Meaning of Life

b. A Film on the theme of QHR helping Day-to-Day Life of A common man

These are only a few and preliminary ideas to move forward. I would be glad to get the feedback of the Intentblog team.

Love,

Avtar

Thank you, Avtar, For remembering the common people. I will look forward to seeing what comes out of this.

I think that the information is vital and I believe it should be freely shared with everyone.

from a not so common common person, peace and love to you Avtar.

derek

Mieke, looks good will need to spend time reading later, kind of busy now.

I like the suggestion by Avtar in #10. Everything will just unfold but it may take a little time we do not want to rush.

There is one concept you all have not been exposed to yet, but it will come soon. It must be properly presented, it is a real mind bender.

Disturbing to the ego, yet liberating to the soul. Although in itself it may not be much other than an altered preception, what it could lead to is the unification by scientists themselves.

Thank you all for the kind comments.

Dk, this is a wonderful picture :). I have a stereopicture i came across to on the Internet once and when you look at it in a special way it reveals to you in real (virtual) 3D the words: "The Kingdom of God". Not everyone can see it though you have to look at it in a very special way :)

This is a great project to be working on. I still have to put the glossary up and this last file can be edited again and again if more words come available. I will browse through the articles to see if there are words to be placed into the glossary.

Heather, i know you are doing a great job on this too from another angle :)

Dear Avtar, very good thoughts, add to it 3D Virtual Reality games (especially for children).

Love, Mieke

Dear DK: The first part is so untrue. Of what I've seen of you here at ib, the way you connect with people and galvanize I reckon you're one of the best! Truly. I can only wish there were more dk's like you, but alas. I'm sorry that I'm not of the sugary type, don't mince words and just like to see&talk things as they are.

The second part always happens in nature, it's a continuous flux of info.

Dear Mieke, D.K. and all other Fiery Comets,

Sector star target is fascinating itself to my brain!
Now it's moving in place and the mouse is laughing.

Ordinary people making extraordinary efforts
to bring body, mind, soul and spirit together.

May the powers that be grace us with communion
and allow us to partake of the fruits of our Fathers.

If we lack free-will it is our privilege to serve
and freely give with the gates of the heart flung wide open.

We have eyes to the skies from every direction
as we gaze in one-pointedness through the lens of the divine.

Eyes are looking back us, pray that they be smiling!

The eighth sense of humor spontaneously jerks in fits and starts.

Start the engines that drive the 500 miles
no matter how sticky it gets! Vrooooooom!!!!!

Buy your oil from the Anointed Ones
and you won't get burned. #7, Keith~

What do you all think this means? Harb, Avtar?

Spread Of Plant Diseases By Insects Can Be Described By Equations That Model Interplanetary Gravity
Science Daily — Researchers from Penn State University and the University of Virginia show that the spread of diseases by insects can be described by equations similar to those that describe the force of gravity between planetary objects. Their findings are detailed in the September issue of The American Naturalist.

How many of you know about Galactic Gravity Waves?

Dear Richard, here is my effort though I am not very adept at detailed explanations.

My four basic forces based theory of 'evolution' applies to all systems, may it be man, may it be Earth as a whole, solar system as a whole, galactic system as a whole to finally universal system as a whole.

Accordingly, the outer or physical layer, or development of first phase of each system, is governed by gravitational interactions (carried through gravity waves?), second layer or phase by electromagnetic interactions, third by strong interactions and fourth by weak interactions.

Moreover, since each phase further goes through four basic interactions it means first phase of each phase is further governed by gravitational interactions.

This means gravitational interactions are the main cause of birth, evolution and death of first phase of each system as well as first phase of each phase and so on.

Now, though on the 'species' scale as a whole plants and animals belong to the second phase of electromagnetic interactions, further within that phase they also belong to and that means governed by the gravitational interactions. It must be because of this that diseases of plants can also be described by the gravitational interactions. As plant and animals basically belong to the same interactions their is symbiotic relationship between them. It is because of this that insects - a form of animals - may be coming into the picture to carry those diseases.

Regards, Harb

People may wonder now, but may be not in the very distant future everything will be explained in terms of four basic interactions, even so-called spirituality which is just a unification of them. No saint, sage has done/spoken anything except which was dictated by the four basic interactions in which they were or to which they belonged, just as no scientists has or has made his discovery.

Cool. I like the artwork.

When do we get an exhibit of the artwork, like say a website where all these images are posted up?

Cheers,

Yogi

Dear DK and All

As I read more about the philosophy of consciousness, it seems as if schools of modern philosophy will have strong parallels with the spiritual planes and consciousness, as described in http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/02/integrating_com.html.

May Holistic Quantum Relativity be given its own corner at IB, like Open Thread?

love, Heath

Dear DK,

I have noticed in the Glossary that two terms have not yet been defined:

Spiritual Equivalence and Supra-Consciousness.
I have been looking on the Internet and came up with the following definition for each term:

Spiritual Equivalence: having the same rights, duties, unfolding(development) and reward.

Supra-Consciousness: the integration of the (daily) consciousness and the unconsciousness.

Could these definitions perhaps be appropriate?

And another question: Can i go on adding the above thread to the contents of the ANHwikipages?
And also that of Einstein and Tagore?

Love, Mieke

Spiritual Equivalence: All things being equal
in their relationships to each other; involving
shared experiences of the extraordinary and inexplicable; higher levels of consciousness obtained
through various methods or agents resulting in
comparable and similar phenomenal experiences;
the end result due to a maturing process whereby
various cultures attain similar and common
aspirations through the insufferable efforts
of sacrifice and devotion, mercy and compassion.

Dear Keith,

Wow!

Love, Mieke

Dear Richard, DK, and Friends:

" the spread of diseases by insects can be described by equations similar to those that describe the force of gravity between planetary objects. Their findings are detailed in the September issue of The American Naturalist."

This is not surprising because there is an underlying order in the universe- from particles, atoms, molecules, cells, neurons to stars, galaxies, and even the so-called empty space full of vacuum energy. This order is what is manifested in the equations such as the relativity equations representing gravity. That is what the Holistic Relativity I have described in my book - The Hidden Factor and in this posting, all about. The Holistic Relativity equations describing the universe and everything in it entail within them all inclusive phenomena, forces, and things (insects, diseases, and whatever else that can be perceived) within the one wholesome continuum of mass/energy/space/time.

Mathematically, an equation just conserves the left hand side with the right hand side of the equation separated with an "=" sign. What any equation does is that it conserves the ultimate what is. Hence, each equation is just a corollary of the laws of conservation signified by the Holistic Relativity. The ultimate equation is that ALL IS EQUAL TO ONE.

On the other hand, the theory of four forces does not have the proper physics to describe an equation depicting spirituality. Such an equation needs to describe the phenomenon of consciousness or an expansive energy powering the expansion of the universe. The four forces of particle physics are only attractive forces and their unification, if ever found or achieved would be just the opposite of consciousness. It seriously lacks the physics required for depicting the oneness or wholesomeness of spirituality or consciousness.

One can claim anything so long as one does not verify with mathematical equations or formulations demonstrating the unification. One can dream anything especially in the so-far unverified and inexperienced domain of virtual particles, multiple universes, multidimensions. The key is to demonstrate the proof by similar mathematical formulations that the original four forces are described with. No credible claim of unification without actual mathematical formulations can be made. When particle physicists try to do just that, the dream turns into a nightmare because of the missing physics of consciousness from their equations.

Riding this dead horse to describe spirituality is not only fraught with the same paradoxes and inconsistencies, but demeaning and misrepresenting the simple elegant message of the spiritual masters.

Love,

Avtar

Dear Harb and DK:

I am sorry for a delayed response to your comments (#232, #235, #237, #238, and #239) in the previous main posting on HQR. As it disappeared from the IB Home Screen, I stopped paying attention to it. Any way here is my response to your comments and proposals in this new post:

Harb #232: “Avtar, I think what you are referring to is called Stady State theory in scientific circles, long discarded in favour of Superdence or Big Bang theory.
I think the real achievement will be to unite the two into one single theory/explanation of cosmology. It will be reaching the real Holism.”

Harb, from your comments it is clear to me that you have not understood or grasped the mathematical elegance of the Holistic Relativity of the GNM model I have proposed in my book and papers. (In order to assist you, I am sending you via separate e-mail a couple of my publications for easy reading). You are still misinterpreting the theory and its revelations with your own misunderstanding and non-appreciation of the mathematical depth and rigor of it that explains the mystery of the universe in a unified seamless integration of the consciousness of the spiritual masters and general theory of relativity.

The universe that results from the GNM is not a static but extremely dynamic - pure kinetic energy that exists eternally and omnipresently signifying the Einstein’s fully dilated space/time. Such a universe has never been predicted by previous theories or cosmology models including the now infamous Steady State or Static universe mentioned by you.

The Big Bang theory is fraught and paralyzed with so many singularities, unresolved paradoxes, inconsistencies that even the professional cosmologists have established an Alternative Cosmology Group (http://www.cosmology.info/) standing against it. It is naïve to be taken aback by the claims of the Big Bang model. The fact is that the particle physics and cosmology are lost in nowhere land and the Big Bang or the so-called Standard Model is a big face saving to continue the profession and research funding to remain in business. There is no other game in town; their last hope in String Theory has failed badly as well.

Thanks for your proposal to combine the steady state and the Big bang into one single theory. That is what the GNM has already achieved. The Big Bang is one unique possibility, in the frame of reference of an observer in the material frame of reference) within the infinite number of possible states of the One wholesome continuum of the mass/energy/space/time of the GNM. It also entails all possible particles, strings, virtual particles, anti-matter, multi-dimensions, or even multi-universes within this One Whole Continuum of consciousness. I know it is a very hard-to-grasp concept or revelation, but you must understand it to fully grasp the deepest implications of the GNM, of course inspired by the wisdom of the spiritual masters. Without fully grasping it, I am afraid that you may continue to keep holding on to as sacred what the incomplete and fragmented particle physics and mainstream is preaching to the world.

I am the biggest supporter of science – a complete science but not a fragmented science. It is only a scientific approach that has, if any, potential to describe spirituality. But, you will find me a biggest critic of those mainstream theories that have kept science from reaching its full potential by keeping it imprisoned in the shackles of matter and fragmented pieces of reality – the particles, anti-particles, and forces.

Harb # 237: “Yet, Avtar, you can also see that I appreciate Bohm for going deeper and deeper into things rather than prematurely invoking the names of spiritual masters.

If you are to talk science talk science. If you are to unify science with spirituality, take everything science has discovered into account, help in the completion of what is left, and in the process take it to the very doors of spirituality. So that at the end you are able to say that now I declare science and spirituality to be one with the only difference that they are using only different names for the same one overarching Truth.

So I repeat that rather than bypass the latest theories as incomplete, we should be able to help scientists either by being with them and complete those theories throughout and in THEIR language, as you being a scientist can do.”

Harb, you are again misquoting or mischaracterizing my work demonstrating your lack of understanding of it. I have written the book – The Hidden Factor and published many papers without ever provoking the word - spirituality or spiritual masters, which I used almost entirely for spiritual audiences like IB. At IB, we have the distinct mission to combine science and spirituality, so we cannot help not invoking these words.

Again, I have already been doing or have already done what you do not seem to realize in your proposal to talk science to scientists. My book and papers are written for scientific and not spiritual audiences. As I said earlier, I did not even use the word consciousness but used – Spontaneity instead in my book and scientific papers to talk the language of science. On the other hand, the five forces theory you are proposing is more of a metaphysics or philosophy than science.

And, I am not bypassing any theories – Newtonian, Quantum, Particle Physics, Big Bang, Field Theories, Bohm’s Wave Theory describing the explicit and implicit, Krishnamurti, Rajneesh, and you name it…. The Holistic Relativity encompasses the deepest essence of all of them and beyond to Buddha, Nanak, Kabir, Krishna, and Jesus etc.

Thanks for your proposal, but frankly speaking, your proposal to dilute the wholesome, simple, mathematically explicit, and elegant (yet unrealized by you since you have not grasped its holistic beauty and mathematical completeness) GNM with paradox-ridden particle physics seems to me as primitive and naïve as asking to describe the love that led to the building of Taj Mahal by analyzing its bricks.

----------------------

DK#238: “It will be great if both of you write the next HQR think-piece together to explain HQR from a joint perspective. That should create a marvellous bridge and insight.”

Dear DK: Thank you for the excellent suggestion. I know you are coming from the good heart – like a sincere loving mom asking her two children to do things together. I would love to follow your advice and hope that my answers above to Harb’s comments address your comment as well.

I would like to point out that once the Holistic Relativity or GNM theory is fully comprehended, one would realize that it already addresses, supersedes in the explicit mathematical form, and entails within it what Harb has described as the Four Forces plus Symmetry theory in the frame of reference of the matter alone (that is already a subset within the Holistic Relativity).

In short, DK, your advice has already been complied with.

Regarding Harb’s proposal on anti-matter, I have already explained earlier and in my book that it is merely an artifact of the flawed assumption of the net zero energy of the universe assumed by quantum cosmology. It is not a universal reality; it does not exist, so “Where it is gone?” is an irrelevant question that can only have irrelevant answers. In fact, many of the paradoxes of the mainstream quantum mechanics are just artifacts of the flawed materialistic-only assumptions or measurement methods. Chasing their answers is like chasing a rainbow or wild-geese. I wouldn’t waste my time chasing it – this I realized long time ago as I came to know more details of quantum mechanics. (Harb, you can continue to chase it if you would like.)

The fact is that quantum mechanics or particle physics is like a fragmented stream of the river of the science of consciousness, a stream that has dried up into the parched desert of materialism. Devoid of consciousness particle physics and all its artifact baggage (observer’s paradox, multi-universes, uncertainty, multi-dimensions, virtual world, anti-matter etc.) is a dead science of the inanimate matter. It is impossible to integrate the dead into the living. We must awaken the mainstream particle physicists from the nightmare of the living dead to the Holistic Relativity – the message of the spiritual masters. Better late than never!!

Love

Avtar

D.K., Harb and Avtar,

Has anyone provided or have you(us?) decided on a particular
"mission statement"?

Perhaps this is coming to a close...
attention deficit and some blog disorder are likely to be blamed.

If I ask, "Who am I?", do you think a math equation
will solve my solid, down to earth question?

"Is there a God?" 1=1, every number really only
equals 1.
Throw the rest of 'em out! They're good for nothing!

"Ride the Trojan Horse(math) to victory!"

Sneak in the front door with the equation for
consciousness minus any conscience.

A two-edged sword with no heart to spear becomes dull.

Name me one Master...any Maharishi or Yogi will do...
name one Spiritual Master who communicated through numbers.

Value Number One: Heart
Value Number Two: Heart
Value Number Three: Heart

That which gives gives strength to your will
is equal to the task at hand.

Is there a particular task you wish to accomplish?

"Win over the minds of the scientific community."

We have yet to define success.

Our intentions, hopes and wishes depend on no outcome.

Outcome ends the in-coming elegant calls.

"Who's there?"

Keith:

The deepest concepts of spirituality and wisdom of the masters are numbers:

Shunya (zero)

Infinity

They both represent the ultimate spirituality or God. Every other number falls in-between the two.

Then-

Advaita (non-duality) is also a number.

Ek Onkar (One God) of Nanak is a Number.

How many more numbers you need to be really spiritual?

If one does not understand these numbers to their deepest implcations in the universe and life, one should reassess his/her spirituality.

Love,

Avtar

Kieth, you have such a beauty to your words, there's something different about you.

Avtar, will the greatest respect, I disagree with you about reassesing ones spirituality based on the understanding anything to it's deepest implication.

My spirituality has remained the same through all my growth and developement. My awareness and belief systems have changed over the years, but I have always been connected to spirituality.

Not everyone is the same or has the same spiritual definitions.
To me spirituality has nothing to do with belief systems.

Where was spirituality before Buhdda, before Jesus, before Zeus, before the first God?

What about the spirituality of the Neanderthals, who are now gone?

Spirituality is there with no understanding of it.
Spirituality is there with god or without god.
Spirituality is there whether we define it or not.

My spirituality is secure whether I ever understand what you are talking about, and I rarely do.

I'm sorry if I am being disrespectful, I'm just having a really hard time with you.
There must be something significant I am going to learn from you. Yo, I usually don't have this reaction to people unless there is something in me that needs to shift..............yo

forgiveness for disrespect

I still hold though to my awarenes of my spirituality without understanding it.

the divine in me is open and respectful of the divine in you

derek

doodleman,

It's always good to have some "new blood" infused
into the family(intentBlog).
Thanks for joining us. I hope you intend to stay.

Do you feel as if you're a part of this...project(?)?
I wonder where Todd(level7)is and why he stopped talking.

Spirit created and re-creates reality, including
our souls(whatever that means).

Spirit sustains and understands what needs to be done in the world.

Spirit knows what we should do to be in harmony
with The Plan.

It is not our responsibility to "save the world".

"He who would save his own life(or soul) shall surely lose it.

What does that leave us to accomplish?

Being evangelical and "saving" souls or scientists,
fundamental mistake?

I get where you're coming from, dood. Peace, Keith~

Dear Avtar,

Please, a one sentence "mission statement"...
it is the appropriate time.

.

Alfalfa and Oregano would not be one and two
if that's all there were.

Any concept with words can be a math equation?

Infinity throws numbers out on they're heads.

If the only Master you ever encountered was like

The Sage Who Never Speaks, how would you put what

he does or is doing to math? Sit by him.

Feel the peace of presence emanating from him.

A mathematical equation defining his mission is ridiculous.

What's he doing right now?

"Counting sheep."

Dear Avtar and Keith

Here is my interpretation of numbers, relative to this discussion:

All numbers are convenient intermediate metaphors -- human-language constructs -- that represent common relational aspects of the universe. They are accurate enough as metaphors that they are considered a special class of representation -- i.e., numbers -- and they are used to form the basis for large areas of human endeavor and activities, such as the prediction of events, ideas and possibilities, and the construction of ideas and objects, that are based on the areas of human thought called math and science (in the English language).

Zero is a metaphor for nothingness or before-universe. Infinity is a metaphor for everything or all-universe. Infinity may have been intuited by humans before zero was. Infinity is conceptually more obvious than zero is, it seems to me.

When we strive for the highest experience of the highest aspect of humanity's inner being -- the most all-encompassing experience, that answers all questions, or removes the need for questions -- we are striving for unity, i.e., infinity.

I have this question: Do the concepts of zero and infinity say that duality can never be resolved, or is zero an aspect of infinity?

love, Heath

Avtar, with your integration of consciousness of spiritual masters in your mathematical equation will the equation begin to explain for itself the mystery of universe?

In some previous thread you said that in your eternal universe there is no evolution. Now you say your eternal universe is dynamic. What does this dynamics mean and what does it mean to explain such a universe? Isn't dynamics only an other name for apparent evolution?

Having resolved ALL paradoxes what are you waiting for to help the scientific community by setting them right where they are wrong and helping them reach your consciousness? If they don't listen to you, you can make them understand one step at a time since you know everything now. Begin from where they exactly are, then either make them realise they are wrong by putting before them all alternative possibilities all also leading to that wrong and then suggest a new idea, or help them just take the next step.

At least you can help the world by explaining evolution (change overtime)in simple language.

You write: "your proposal to dilute the wholesome, simple, mathematically explicit, and elegant (yet unrealized by you since you have not grasped its holistic beauty and mathematical completeness) GNM with paradox-ridden particle physics seems to me as primitive and naïve as asking to describe the love that led to the building of Taj Mahal by analyzing its bricks."

To me you are building on the structure of Taj Mahal (on Einstein's relativity theory where previously your consciousness was not integrated)and purporting to reach love (consciousness), while I have begun from love (which I have experienced directly and which according to me is the only way to realize it and not by building on already existing MATHEMATICAL theories) and now trying to explain its objective manifestation in Taj Mahal. While I or consciousness can move from subject to object, object itself cannot move from itself to consciousness or subject, it will be only subject again who will be coming back to itself. So how your mathematical equation will reach the really conscious giving subject.

No need of getting exasperated though we must both be learning something from each other! But if I have begun to sound too boring you can just stop, after all I am not a scientist and cant be very systematic and specific like you.

Harb

Thank you Kieth for the warm welcome.

I feel I'm apart of everything. This project as well.
I kinda put myself in it without asking, pardon my arrogance.

I feel that there is a another major shift of global awareness just around the corner. I also feel that the levels of wisdom, consciousness, compassion, acceptance and peace are rising.

The "common person" will be more intellegent and spiritual than the "elite" of today. The base level of people today far exceeds that of people only a centry ago. I don't mean intellegent in the ordinary sense, a lot of book learnin' and complex concepts.
By intellegent I mean the ability to adapt to our changing universe. Not fight over unprovable theories. If the proof is so complicated then it is useless to the ordinary person and there for only useful to the "elite".

Jesus got really upset at the religious leaders of his time for standing in the doorway.

I threw myself in here, because I am a common man, but I'm willing to stay and contribute as such.
People have been over complicating the simplicity of the "truth" for so long now that the theories and explanations are considered the truth. Yo, the "truth" existed long before theoris did.

In my opinion science and religion are great and serve a purpose, but I do not put any faith in finding "the answers" in either of them.

The truth is so obvious and simple that some people feel a need to explain it or prove that it exists. Trying to explain it seems to deminish it.

with the greatest respect to all of you

derek

Dear Heath:

Well said, I couldn’t say any better : “When we strive for the highest experience of the highest aspect of humanity's inner being -- the most all-encompassing experience, that answers all questions, or removes the need for questions -- we are striving for unity, i.e., infinity.”

I can only reinforce your statement by adding that when a spiritualist is having a genuine spiritual experience, he/she is experiencing the beauty and joy of oneness, infinity, Advaita (non-duality), which are all inclusive of the mathematical concepts as is obvious by their names. A spiritualist who is unfamiliar with or hates mathematics or numbers may downplay or deny their significance/relationship to the spiritual experience, but without explicitly recognizing and being aware of it he/she is within the all inclusive wholesome continuum domain that includes mathematics, physics, biology, philosophy etc etc…..

Now, answer to your question: “Do the concepts of zero and infinity say that duality can never be resolved, or is zero an aspect of infinity?”

In my book, the Hidden Factor, it is shown that under Holistic Relativity (GNM model), when the mass (signifying Ego) of a self-decaying (free willed, no external forces) particle approaches Zero (total en-lighten-ment), its wavelength (awareness) approaches Infinity (Oneness). Hence, the concepts of zero and infinity are complimentary or equivalent concepts signifying the non-duality or ultimate oneness – the total dilation of mass, space, and time into the One wholesome Zero-point energy.

So, you can see that any explicit definition of spiritual as well as scientific concepts cannot be exclusive of numbers; no matter if a spiritual experiencer chooses to deny or be unaware of it. The numbers (zero, infinity, Pai, One, etc.) are built into the fabric of the universe, atoms, cells, neurons, and mind and that is why the universe becomes comprehensible to human beings. Just a personal denial or disliking of numbers or mathematics cannot change this fundamental reality.

Love

Avtar

Dear Derek:

I apologize if I appeared to you as if I were questioning your spirituality. I was simply reacting, and probably overreacting, to the apparent prevailing dislike, denial, or, non-realization by some, of the implicit role of mathematics or numbers in impacting spirituality and the fundamental laws (which are also mathematical) of the universe. The numbers (zero, infinity, Pai, One, etc.) are built into the fabric of the universe, atoms, cells, neurons, and mind , and a denial or disliking of numbers or mathematics cannot change this fundamental reality.

Love
Avtar

Dear Keith:

I totally agree with you that if a master is counting sheep, he is not having a spiritual experience. On the other hand, if he/she is not meditating or merged into the One, again he is not having a spiritual experience, and if he is radiating something it is not spirituality. The great spiritual master, Nanak, asked his disciples to meditate on or merge into the One – Ek Onkar.

If you told Einstein that – “A mathematical equation defining his mission is ridiculous”, he would disagree with you. Just read carefully all of Einstein’s quotes related to his spirituality in the IB post by DK; his mission was to understand the mind of God thru equations. You can read several books such as the “God Equation”, “Fire in the Equations”, and others describing the spiritual experiences of scientists thru mathematics and equations, which is one of the many mediums of communion or communications with the ultimate reality or spirituality or God. It may sound ridiculous to you since you simply have not had the similar experience.

Similar to the experience of Einstein, my spirituality has its foundations in the equations that to me describe the spiritual teachings of the masters. In fact, just one equation – E=mC2, describes the most fundamental principle and experience of spirituality – the non-duality (Advaita) of mass and energy that encompass all things and experiences of reality. Similarly, the equations describing relativity of space and time describe to me the ultimate experience of eternity and omnipresence, howsoever ridiculous it may sound to you or anyone else who simply has not realized that experience.

Love
Avtar

Dear Harb:

Your Question: “In some previous thread you said that in your eternal universe there is no evolution. Now you say your eternal universe is dynamic. What does this dynamics mean and what does it mean to explain such a universe? Isn't dynamics only an other name for apparent evolution?”

No, dynamics is just the opposite of evolution. Surprised? Here is how it works.

Evolution is creation of time, dynamics is dissolution of time. The faster something moves, the more it dissolves time or slows down the clock according to the GNM relativity theory. At the highest possible speed i.e. the speed of light, the most dynamic state, time dilates to zero or the clock and hence, the evolution stops. So, the state of the universe in which all the matter has converted to energy that moves at speed of light is an utterly dynamic universe but eternal due to the total dilation of time and no evolution. All less dynamic (less conscious) things such as the classical objects, including the human body, are subject to time and evolution.

I hope that clarifies what I mean about the eternal dynamic universe without any evolution. None of the earlier cosmological universe models have described such a universe, and it is not the same as the so-called static (non-dynamic or stationary) universe, which is an obsolete concept now.

Love,
Avtar

Dear Avtar

Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking reply.

Music is a complex expression of numerical relationships that ears and mind can sense and delight in. Art, design and architecture express numerical relationships that eyes and mind recognize and repond to with approval. With hands and mind, we feel and make make things comprised of repeating patterns and smaller complexities because we are designed to recognize and respond postively to these features, which can be expressed numerically. Numbers are a shorthand for the patterns of the universe. We evolved out of the patterns of the universe, and we participate in them fully. There is harmony between humans and numbers. Numbers don't lock out spirituality, creativity or beauty, they are interwoven with these aspects of human consciousness.

love, Heath

Harb,

That was a nicely done, well-restrained critique.
Good advice, nonetheless. Butter 'em up and get in
good with them. Free books, free autographs...free.

.

Derek,

Nobodaddy asked nobody to do anything like
"Join a Union", and we're not paying dues(tithe),
not yet, anyway. At Mallika's house the door is always open. She is VERY tolerant...as are we.

The Truth must needs be understandable to all?

There are untold millions of people who are
more than challenged when it comes to the intellect.

When the Truth happens to you, you feel it, too!

And you'll come away stupified! Duh, Keith

.

Dear Heath, In case you look back...

Infinity for me has to do mostly with the visible
Universe
and no end in measurable sight.

Or, what is the last number? (The very last one.)

Zero...O...Omega...there can be no division.

Dear Keith

I always look back (and often turn into a pillar of salt as a result :S). :D

Infinity is divisible into a series of numbers when it's near-at-hand, and is omega or indivisible from a distance (at least that's how it seems to me) -- assuming the limitations of our perceptions provide that distance (which for me, they do).

Did you ever make a paper Mobius strip? If not, when I get home I'll tell you how.

I've been reading David Chalmers, consciousness philosopher extraordinaire, tough but exciting stuff. It takes long to get through each paper (for me), but what thoughts I've found in most of them, that send me spinning off for hours. If you're up for trying him, click on my name for my work blog, which has a link to his stuff on the right.

love, Heath

Avtar has almost Barbed him in his posts.

Avtar, just for the sake of carrying on, otherwise as all is Truth so must be we both...

****
Equations are a mind construct and we need to go beyond mind to realize Truth - which is really a heart-realization.

Nanak said "soche soch na hovei je sochan lakh war ( Truth cannot be reached by thinking even if I think about it a million times...) And you say you can put it in concrete mathematical form?

The very first line of master Kirpal's address on an other thread here reads: "“The inner feelings of heart cannot be expressed through words, for love is always dumb..." And you say you can even go beyond and express it in mathematics?"

Lao Tze said something to the effect: "If The Way (Truth) can be told everybody would have told it to his brother and by now everybody would be knowing it..."

Great mathematician philosopher Bertrand Russel said some 50 years ago that Truth/Certainty cannot be found through mathematics...

Mathematics may take us to the end of this mind constructed world which is really like a dream world but it cannot awaken us to the dreamer. Perhaps rather a failure in it can.

Perhaps you can say that it is up to this our mathematics can take us, and if you want to realize the ultimate truth of the masters, now please leave it here and rather try to find the MATHEMATICIAN by asking yourself Who Am I?

Yes, if you have awakened first you can enjoy a bit of dream by recalling it and dabbling in it.....But then don't attach that much importance to it....

Harb

Dear Heath:

Well said,: “Music is a complex expression of numerical relationships that ears and mind can sense and delight in.”
----- The digital music and digital films express the human emotions and experiences much more vividly than the older analog technology, no wonder, there is a digital revolution.
“……..Numbers are a shorthand for the patterns of the universe. We evolved out of the patterns of the universe, and we participate in them fully.
……..There is harmony between humans and numbers. Numbers don't lock out spirituality, creativity or beauty, they are interwoven with these aspects of human consciousness.”

Furthering your thoughts above, and my statement earlier that any explicit definition of spiritual as well as scientific concepts cannot be exclusive of numbers, I came up with the following Holistic relativity unification between numbers and spirituality or truth:

“When the ego (mass) is dissolved to Zero (Shunya, nothingness), the awareness becomes Infinity and the true self is realized via merging into the Wholesome One Truth (Consciousness) dissolving the Many (all numbers in between Zero and Infinity) relative realities of the materialstic (only) observer in the frame of reference of the inanimate matter.

Such a state of infinite awareness is the ultimate spirituality of Non-duality or Oneness.”

Love
Avtar

Dear Harb:

Your Comment: “Nanak said "soche soch na hovei je sochan lakh war ( Truth cannot be reached by thinking even if I think about it a million times...) And you say you can put it in concrete mathematical form?"

Ans.: You are forgetting that the Fundamental Mantra (Mool Mantar) of Guru Nanak – “Ek Onkar Sat Naam” (One God – the Truth) is in mathematical form with a number One.

Nanak also said: “Jicchar Mukat Naa Hovai, Jichhar Sabad Naa Kare Vichaar” (There is no salvation or liberation until one contemplates on the word – Ek Onkar Sat Naam”

Your comment : “ And you say you can even go beyond and express it in mathematics?"

Harb, I humbly request you not to be hypocritical and inconsistent within yourself. Your four forces theory is founded on and expressed in terms of forces that are exclusively mathematical constructs and formulations. Your Symmetry arguments to explain spirituality are nothing but expressions of Dirac’s mathematical equations. The whole shebangs of particles and anti-particles theories you are riding on to explain spirituality are nothing but mathematical wave-functions of quantum mechanics. Moreover, the theory of evolution you are using as a backbone for your spirituality is nothing but based on statistical (mathematical) progression of mutations and adaptations.

Without realizing and being devoid of the mathematical/scientific experience, you are naively undercutting your own spiritualistic theories when you speak against mathematics.

Your comment: “Great mathematician philosopher Bertrand Russel said some 50 years ago that Truth/Certainty cannot be found through mathematics...”

----- Russel never said that one can not express (as opposed to finding) Truth/Certainty via mathematics. The certainty and reality of the universal laws –Gravity, Conservation, entropy, etc. is expressed successfully thru explicit mathematical equations. These universal laws represent nothing but the Truth in its eternal and omnipresent form, similar to the “Hukum” of Nanak.

The universal constants (speed of light, particle masses, gravitational constant, cosmological constant etc etc.) that are the very foundations of the universe and everything in it including the mystics and their mystical spiritual experiences are nothing but mathematical numbers. The constancy and numerical values of these constants are the very basis of the Anthropic Principle, a pseudo-spiritual-scientific approach being adopted by the mainstream physicists/cosmologists in a desperate attempt to explain away the unresolved cosmological issues wherein the particle physics and quantum mechanics have embarrassingly failed.

Your comment: “Perhaps you can say that it is up to this our mathematics can take us, and if you want to realize the ultimate truth of the masters, now please leave it here and rather try to find the MATHEMATICIAN by asking yourself Who Am I?”

----- As opposed to your prevailing lack of understanding of my work demonstrated in your repeated and already responded to comments, I first found the answer to the question – “Who Am I?“ thru the fundamental universal message of all the spiritual masters – a top down approach. Then I tried to validate and search that answer thru science/mathematics – the bottoms up approach. I searched and searched until I converged on a common unified Holistic Relativity of GNM that not only resolved the prevailing paradoxes of science, but also expressed the essence of the teachings of the spiritual masters in a precise, simple, elegant, and explicit scientific/mathematical form.

My experience, unlike yours, is not exclusively or isolated mystic experience alone. I did not believe and prematurely assumed the absoluteness of my mystic experiences until I verified it thru science/mathematics. And, when I did I was filled with the unexplainable awe and wonder, same as Nanak’s and Einstein’s, that it is all One and the same truth that exists as One Wholesome Continuum of matter/energy/space/time is expressible or communicable in the explicit forms of mathematical language. This was the first time I understood the power of the language of mathematics and its vastness with incomparable precision. In fact, one of my biggest revelations was that it was the only form that is precise and free from the multifaceted metaphysical misrepresentations/dogmas of religion and the so-called self-proclaimed masters of this day and age. For the first time I could see thru the simplicity, certainty, precision, and elegance of the message of the spiritual masters with a 20/20 vision eliminating the veil of their metaphysical or philosophical mis-interpretations and foggy fluff.

A mystic’s individual experience is only good for him/her alone…….he/she might as well go hide in the Himalayas since it cannot help anyone else unless otherwise expressed and communicated in precise and un-distortable form to be of benefit to others, especially the common folks.

Love,
Avtar

Avtar, you are right regarding mathematics in a way...yet I think if you neglect quantum theory you may be premature in declaring physics as closed with your arrival at consciousness through it. Zero, infinity have been there since long, and at any time some one could have jumped to the conclusion that they represent One, Infinite God or Reality, yet science has been going on to reveal more and more and it is these revelations which we really want to know so far as we are to make progress in THIS world.

Your achievement remind me of one Marcelin Berthelot mentioned in "Conversations About the Invisible" who wrote in 1887 that "The Universe no longer holds any mystery." And in fact it has happened many times. Spiritual masters too have been declaring since long that there is only One reality, but science's job is to go on revealing the detailed and detailed secrets of that One reality. So it will be right in solving the now seemingly so unsolvable secrets of quantum theory and then uniting it with Relativity theory as complementary which to me it really is, rather than allow it to be swallowed by the relativity theory.

So when you are planning to mass-distribute mathematical spirituality in capsule form lol.

With Love,
Harb