The One Self in All

Everything perceived, felt and thought of is all nothing but the Self (You) only.

One Self (You) is the substratum (level lying below another) for the entire universe of names and forms.

There are some everyday phrases, often used thoughtlessly by even scientific men / women of education and understanding. “The conquest of nature” – “we must face reality” – “I came into this world”. All these declare our hallucination (seeming to see something not actually present) that each of us is an independent separate centre, which must confront an external, alien world of things and being.

The Universe around us is considered as alien and separate from us.

This concept that we have come into this world is against all scientific knowledge. We do not come into the world: we come out of it: as trees from earth.

We are not isolated helpless egos packed in separate bodies, but each a unique action of the whole Universe.

One who has awakened to experience the Self in his own bosom as unborn and beginning-less, has realized the Self in him as the Self-in-all. He / She (You) is freed from the delusion that he / she (you) is a limited individual. He / She (You) goes beyond the body-mind-intellect equipment- he /she (you) is no more a limited creature – he / she (you) comes to experience and live the Infinite.

Rajesh Sharma

Hi DK,

How much is Bhagwat Geeta and HQR related?

I think HQR is Bhagwat Geeta.

Rajesh Sharma

Dear DK and All!

When we will grapple with One reality through mind we cannot help but divide it into two. Here we have divided it into whole and irreducible, or holism and reductionism.

A reductionist cell in my body goes deeper and deeper through successive parts and ultimately reaches the substratum which bounds me into one single spacetime entity.

Similarly, a holistic cell in my body, on the other hand, goes on covering greater and greater parts of my body but ultimately reaches the same substratum which again bounds me into one single spacetime entity.

The same goes for our universe. So long as we can divide it into two, any two, we have not understood it fully. In our present case we have neither understood it fully as a whole nor fully as irreducible. when we will we will go beyond the difference too.

Moreover, we use the word consciousness liberally yet erroneously. To real test will be to imagine whatlike the 'consciousness of the star dust - or better still, of the super quantum potential (David Bohm's term for the ultimate substratum) - would be from where we began.

Here I quote a paragraph from my book Self Designed Universe to show how tricky this question of consciousness can be. It is an answer by American physicist John.A.Wheeler to somebody who asked him whether conscious observer are necessary to transform quantum phenomenon into reality:

Quote:

"...this word conscious(ness) is little tricky here because one can think of animals as having brains that are so primitive that they may not be so completely aware as you or I are and, if some flash of light - some elementary quantum phenomenon - occurs which they're able to respond to in some way, then meaning has come into being even if it has involved consciousness at a pretty low level. So I would not like to put the stress on consciousness... ..It is the idea of communication that is important. As animals have to communicate, the establishment of meaning doesn't require the use of English!"

Unquote

Now what we can say of animals we can say of plants, what we can say of plants we can say of minerals, what we can say of minerals we can say of Mosc, of 'consciousness', of super quantum potential, of the ultimate base of all there is. For, the essential idea indeed is to respond, to communicate...

If we throw something into a pond of still water, it too responds. Mosc responds at the beginning in the same way. Meaning is attached in the case of disturbed water when its response seems to convey, which it rightly conveys, that it again wants to regain its stillness; similarly, meaning is attached to the response of so-called 'consciousness' at the beginning when it conveys through response that it wants to regain its stillness, its state of oneness.

And excuse me to say that this sort of consciosness will be more near to the truth in a stone than in most of the spiritual masters. Perhaps not for nothing Buddha and even many other Zen masters are rather cast in stone!

Harb

Thanks DK for you explanation #4.

HQR is getting very interesting. I always wanted to learn what's beyond physical, astral and causal planes, of course as a curious person

Thanks again
Rajesh Sharma

The Universe is constantly putting old wine into new bottles. All scientific theories fall into this category as well. The magnificent grandeur and beauty of existence is constantly being expressed anew by scientists, sages and commonfolk alike. Even the most heated debate between philosophers and scientists (with all it's seriousness and complexity) is merely the Lord of existence talking to itself!
Todd

More on difference between knowing through mind and directly:

Though David Bohm went as deep as Holomoment - which contains all life as implicit in it - yet, perhaps because of inadequate understanding or of fear of his hard-nosed colleagues - he divided one Holomoment into two, living and non-living. Have any true knower of Truth heard God is not there is non-living yet there in living...? Here is relevant quote in my book Self-Designed Universe:

Quote

In his excellent book Wholeness and the Implicate Order he has made a strong case of the omnipresence of the life-principle. Writes he interalia...

" ...We may say that even inanimate matter maintains itself in a continual process similar to the growth of plants...Plant is formed, maintained, and dissolved by the exchange of matter and energy with its environment, at which point can we say that there is a sharp distinction between what is alive and what is not? Clearly, a molecule of carbon dioxide that crosses a cell boundary into a leaf doesn't suddenly ‘come alive’ nor does a molecule of oxygen suddenly ‘die’ when it is released to the atmosphere. Rather, life itself has to be regarded as belonging in some sense to a totality, including plant and environment...

...It may indeed be said that life is enfolded in the totality, and that, even when it is not manifest, it is somehow 'implicit' in what we generally call a situation in which there is no life."

He has proffered the hypothesis of an undefinable and immeasurable holomovement which includes or rather enfolds in itself the principle of life at some deep unmanifest level. ‘Indeed, the holomovement which is life implicit is the ground both of life explicit and of inanimate matter,’ write he somewhere further. In fact, I can only hope that our Mosc theory of evolution in some small way contributes to his hypothesis of the life implicit in the holomovement and of its subsequent manifestation.

Holomovement, according to our own proposal, in its most abstract form will be our Mosc through and through, while the virtual realm where Mosc gets entangled into four basic forces as I have explained earlier, would perhaps be what Bohm calls autonomous sub-totality enfolded in it."

Though I cannot understand why he becomes so self-conscious, so apologetic even after having reached such depths as the holomovement - which contains even ‘life force’ in it as well - in speaking about life and inanimate matter in juxtaposition such as when he writes:

"The above does not mean, however, that life can be reduced completely to nothing more than that which comes out of the activity of a basis governed by the laws of inanimate matter alone.."

or:

"Thus we do not fragment life and inanimate matter, nor do we try to reduce the former completely to nothing but an outcome of the later."

I can’t understand what is wrong if life ‘comes out of the activity of a basis governed by the laws of inanimate matter alone’. Or, if life is ‘reduced to an outcome of’ inanimate matter. Have we really understood sufficiently what potentials this so-called basis has and what laws this poor, simple inanimate matter has to preclude life thus coming out of it?

When all is an unbroken wholeness, why differentiate so strongly between its various parts? Why not try to include all and everything including life and inanimate matter into a single life-process, single evolutionary process?

Anyway, this may a job for us to do. So we must thank David Bohm for helping us acquire the confidence, by going through his above-mentioned and other observations made in the same book, to put forth our own proposition.

Thanks for reading, DK wished we will discuss Bohm more....Harb

Well said Todd, The Lord was getting a bit bored, he had not talked for a long time...

Harb

If something is UNBROKEN wholeness, if something has no parts, what is interconnected?

I'm a little concerned that my previous comment wasnt posted or rather deleted. this is not a democratic platform after all
I am keen to know-what exactly is philantrophia and quantum relative healing and ATCA and all that other jargon that you keep spouting
I am curious... if you delete my comment again i will post it again on another blog-because i am truly tired of your nonsense and awaiting an explanation

if you have nothing original to say why dont you spare us? we have heard the classics of the great masters too & the only reason we sign on to intenblog is to hear an original and uplifting point of view which you have proved in the borrowed material that you have been feeding us or the last several oths that you are completely incapable of
take a holiday DK Matai and dont insult our intelligence anymore

I sign on to intent blog to get healed DK Matai-thats the only reason why i am here. But instead i get assaulted by your your hypocritical disguised intelligible nonsense. Using big words and what we call in India "high funda " phrases dosent fool us into beleiving your making any sense at all.
Help
Somebody tell this man to go away!

Dear DK,

I like the term Holotropic State, I noticed the use of the bridge with it's own reflection in the water. To me it shows symmetry between the two states of the same thing, both tangible and intangible.

I thought the text was a very lucid summary and explanation of the point where we are at.

I was just reading some quantum research material how virtual particles effect tangible particles which gives strong support to the direction of our journey.

There was another article I recall reading, I need to find it again taking into light all what we have discussed here.

I found a short summary online but not the full article. I have a hardcopy around here somewhere. But perhaps to some it would also be of interest.

Scientific American November 2005 issue

The Illusion of Gravity
The force of gravity and one of the dimensions of space might be generated out of the peculiar interactions of particles and fields existing in a lower-dimensional realm
By Juan Maldacena

Three spatial dimensions are visible all around us--up/down, left/right, forward/backward. Add time to the mix, and the result is a four-dimensional blending of space and time known as spacetime. Thus, we live in a four-dimensional universe. Or do we?
Amazingly, some new theories of physics predict that one of the three dimensions of space could be a kind of an illusion--that in actuality all the particles and fields that make up reality are moving about in a two-dimensional realm like the Flatland of Edwin A. Abbott. Gravity, too, would be part of the illusion: a force that is not present in the two-dimensional world but that materializes along with the emergence of the illusory third dimension....

It may have some clues and insight.

euuh.. can't find that copy of Laszlo's something,

but the conclusion was,
correct me if I'm wrong,

Something about, here, now, innerchild,
and fun, right?

with,
Love, Passion,

Dear Swag,

You said "the only reason we sign on to intentblog". I was missed in your polling process and do consider myself to be a part of the we.

Unless you are only speaking of all the people in the room with you, then I must say there are other groups that may have different perspectives. You also said "why don’t you spare us?" so I assume you are speaking of your group there because I have found great value in the dialog and DK's efforts.

Some people don't come here for healing, some come here to engage in dialog, and not everyone sees eye to eye, that is for sure. I have seen at least some original thought here, it seems to be evolving from the old thought.

I sense your frustration, I often have the same feeling and as I expect like you, hope the world could get it's act together. Usually projecting those frustrations on individuals does not do us any good.

I have found though that what others write in general does not have any negative effect on me. It either has a positive effect or none at all because I simply disregard whatever I consider a waste of my mind space.

Every once in a while I too come across a big word that I need to understand better so I just Google it and always find a good explanation. Sometimes it takes a little time and effort, but doesn't everything of value.

I do hope things improve for you.

Best Wishes.

Since "swag" is having problems with this blog why does he stoop to reading it? I for one am tired of those posting on IB who have nothing positive to say. Please "swag" et al don't waste my time!

>>I sense your frustration, I often have the same feeling and as I expect like you, hope the world could get it's act together. Usually projecting those frustrations on individuals does not do us any good.

Dear Richard,

If we turn on the TV right now, let's say CNN what do we see? I can understand swag's frustration and I think many other people feel the same way. I too appreciate the opportunity to participate in these blogs but with all due respect, if we are going to just talk "intelligently" just to sound intelligent (and I absolutely don't mean all the things I have read from you because I enjoyed it), if all we are going to do is to use profound spiritual texts as a pre-text to avoid all that is practical and critical in our lives, what is the point of blogging?

Let's face it; shouldn't we ALL be concerned with what is happening right now? Another war is coming up! The media is preparing us. We keep listening to people "asking" for diplomatic solutions, and criticisms from congressmen against this administration and opposition against the next move/s, articles posted on this site ‘supposedly’ against another war, but why can't most people do something about it by simply stop conniving with it?

The use of fancy names such as "Quantum", "Hollistic", "Eisntein" do not mean much if our bottom line is to protect the status quo controlled by a large group of dominant warmongers. The vast majority of the people in the world do not want another war and period!

But hey, do they care? Some people certainly want to pretend that they do.

Respectfully,

DMR (hopefully you won't mind that I go by my initials)

Dear Matai,

I do appreciate all your efforts and the opportunity to voice my oppinion in your blog. But I have a simple question to ask you:

Are you going to support the next war, yes or no? Why?

You talk about "Spiritual Thinking" and "Positive Intentions" and would like to know what your position is in regards to the ongoing "project" that keeps putting at risk, more and more, the population of the world.

I do believe we all have the right to know.

Respectfully,
DMR

Dear Matai,

Thank you for all the links. I am going to read what you wrote when I have more time...but I am guessing that my next question will be the following:

Are you against because we are "losing" in Iraq, ie. we haven't been able to control the people and do our things over there as planned or for other reasons?

If the answer will be found in your links, I apologize for the question. You do not need to answer.

Thank you for your time,

Thank you again DK! All the time & effort you have invested in sharing your wisdom with us is very much appreciated.

Love, Char

Dear DK, ha ha ha! Your answer reminds me of a couple of paragraphs from my book:

Quote

"But pray, Nataraja, why did you allow yourself to be entangled in Parbati - in those four forces - in the first instance?"

"Ha, ha, ha..." Nataraja, perhaps, would laugh his heart out on hearing this question.

"Entangled! Entangled he says...hooooh! Who says I’ve been entangled ever? It’s the vested interests of the people like you to first show me entangled and then struggling to get disentangled. With what else will you, you funny scribblers, otherwise fill your books?"

"...But...but...those tears in your eyes… Your accusing finger towards Parbati..." Now it was my turn to shed tears.

"Oh, that...I see...one of those stormy visions of yours...!"

".....?"

"You dream all sorts of dreams and then you say I, who am to you as you’re to your dreams, am entangled in them? Are you entangled in your dreams? You are not entangled my child, though you may feel so while dreaming. Wouldn’t you yourself laugh if one of your dream creatures were to ask you questions involving your first instances? First go and exhaust your dream, go and write your dreamy book, go and win your dreamy name, fame, and fortune, only then you will know of my first instances. While dreaming ye may not talk of first instances, lest talking of first instances ye may lose your dreaming mid-way through."

Unquote

So Dear DK, if you really want a view from the top, nothing is bound, none is trying to be free, it is either our ignorance or our need to get name, fame and fortune. Choose your pick! Mine is the later, I know and I also know what pain I am going through because of this, and what enjoyment I was in before falling into its trap in the form of writing the book!

Even otherwise, if the world is an allusion as you often say, and which means is like a dream, how come you see a part of it as worthless stone and a part of it worthy of worship? The need may be, my friend, to wake up from the dream...

You know nothing personal, I have rather begun to fall in love with you lol!

Harb

Dear DMR,

Actually I had watched about 2 minutes of CNN it was showing the very worst of humanity. Anger violence and dead tortured bodies, people wailing, all from the Sectarian violence.

Which is all a result of belief systems, these people are acting out in response to an Illusion.

It is my intention to do whatever to destroy these illusions at least most of them. I have written here and I am working on a paper that makes a case against beliefs. They are not necessary and are really illusionary fabrications.

There is is an art to living life where conflict is quickly resolved with communication, and never violent. It involves knowing, possibility, and probability it does not require belief and life can be of abundance and prosperity for everyone.

It is higher consciousness, cutting the last piece of cake in half and sharing rather than getting it first or not having it at all rather than fighting over it.

Being exposed to higher consciousness or being in it's presence tends to lift all consciousness yet many are not yet exposed to it.

I don't know if there is anyway to reach these people in Iraq divided by religion and perhaps it is all part of the process their souls need to go through so eventually they crave the light, they crave the peace, they embrace wisdom.

Ignorance is the beast causing all suffering and conflict and all we can do is to communicate intelligence and wisdom and be the example of love and compassion. Staying centered and not getting entangled in the illusions, so that we can help others blinded by them to see beyond appearances.

There are people that can help by making certain decisions that affect the world. There are projects that can be implemented, and I suppose we will see if they will be. There are many pretenders on this planet that give a few tokens to relieve their guilt, or create a false production so they can take the gold, but there is one self that is not fooled.

All over the world we do not see the craving for peace yet reaching a threshold to trigger that deep soul searching that leads to the insight and knowing, where humanity shifts to a whole new level. Which means it needs to get worse first, but hey that is all part of evolution. We could avoid it if enough of us can trigger a larger awakening.

Dear DK & Friends:

It is time to reassess the progress we have made on HQR and move forward rather than drift backward into the never-land of metaphysics (the five elements etc.) and fragmented, paradox-ridden, and as Einstein put it – “Incomplete” jargon of quantum theory especially for unifying science and spirituality.

Your very statement below in this post pays not only undue credit to quantum physics, but also undermines the Holistic Relativity that removes its ills. That is why I had expressed my serious objection to the use of the word Quantum in the so-called HQR diluting the real value of the Holistic Relativity. We do not have to misrepresent or dilute the Holistic Relativity just for political or personal reasons to appease some folks. My reasons for objection to your following statement are also described in detail below:

“Points 1, 2 and 3 -- taken together -- have striking parallels with the timeless spiritual concepts that all reality is the manifestation of an Infinite Singularity -- Creative Principle -- which we may choose to name Self-Designing Source, Supra-Universal Consciousness, Divine Principle or God. This demonstrates that Quantum Physics is moving the boundaries of our thinking towards the Holotropic State. Holotropic means "moving toward wholeness." [Origin: Greek "Holos" = whole and "Trepein" = moving in the direction of]”

The incompleteness of quantum mechanics is the fundamental root cause of the irresolvable paradoxes of modern physics and cosmology. I am reiterating here for the benefit of all IB participants the major deficiencies and drawbacks of Quantum Physics that the Holistic Relativity eliminates. These paradoxes not only paralyze it from representing the true reality but also mislead the humanity towards a path that is NOT EVEN WTRONG (The characterization of the String Theory by its very own inventors that was supposed to cure all the ills of quantum physics.):

Quantum Mechanics vs Consciousness

Avtar Singh
avsingh@alum.mit.edu

Since the consciousness is the central issue here in the science vs. God debate, and quantum mechanics is often referred to as a scientific basis for consciousness, I thought a new perspective on this topic would be of interest.

Quantum mechanics (QM) is a great theory that has revealed the inner details of the inanimate matter allowing us to make great materialistic advances and electronic gadgetry such as cell phones, HDTV, computers, internet etc. However, QM’s application to consciousness and spirituality is highly questionable because of the following fundamental inconsistencies and flaws as presented in my book - “The Hidden Factor: An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and Universal Reality.” The deficiencies and incompleteness (as Einstein noted) in QM formulations are the root causes that fail quantum mechanics to predict 96% of the universe limiting its successes to only predicting the classical matter (4%). This is also evidenced by the fact that quantum mechanics predictions of the vacuum energy (the cosmological constant) of the empty space are in error by horrendous 120 orders of magnitude. The deficiencies in QM are as follows:

1. The Heisenberg Uncertainty, which forms the basis of quantum mechanics, is commonly but mistakenly understood as the basis for consciousness or free will. This uncertainty is not inherent in nature but an artifact of the chosen measurement method by science that is applicable or accurate only for measurements in the classical or fixed space and time. The errors inherent in this method for measuring the behavior of common heavier particles such as atoms and molecules are small and hence have contributed to the known successes of quantum mechanics in everyday technological applications in the material world. However, the errors get amplified to almost infinite amounts when applied to the very small new and allusive fundamental particles proposed for high energy physics investigations, wherein the relativistic effects become extremely important. Because of these errors and inconsistencies, the physics of the very small remains allusive leading to the still unresolved paradoxes of quantum mechanics at the most fundamental level such as the Measurement or Observer Paradox and the quantum gravity. Since the phenomenon of consciousness operates at very small scales (below Planck’s scale), quantum mechanics arguments are inappropriate for its description.

2. Counter to the common knowledge and assumptions, uncertainty can never be the basis for the free will. A free will can exist only in conjunction with certainty and eternity of the natural laws of the universe. For example, one cannot walk up straight at own free will if there is no certain and unchanging law of gravity. A randomly varying and uncertain law of gravity would deny the free will to be able to walk up straight.

3. Quantum mechanics relies upon the observations of a conscious observer without which there would be no quantum reality or quantum mechanics. However, there is no scientific description of the observer that brings quantum mechanics into reality or existence. The vicious circular logic that is often used by experts in science and other fields is that on one hand quantum mechanics is often used as a basis to explain consciousness, while quantum mechanics itself relies on the consciousness of the observer.

4. One of the fundamental assumptions made by quantum mechanics and quantum cosmology is that the net mass-energy of the universe is zero. The standard Big Bang model is based on this completely arbitrary assumption. The artifact of this very assumption (mistakenly) leads to the presumed existence of anti-matter that is nowhere to be found, to cancel out the net positive energy of matter in the universe. And, similarly the anti-particles, again not observed as yet as a stable entity in the same amount as the real matter, have to be presumed to cancel out the actual particles. Ultimately, one mistake leads to another, and a whole virtual world has to be (mistakenly) created that represents the so-called virtual world.

What is the impact of this mistaken or unfounded assumption? This very wrong assumption is the root cause that disables quantum mechanics to predict 96% of the universe limiting its successes to local particles of matter wherein the error is small compared to the very large error at universal scale causing failures of the theory. This is also evidenced by the fact that quantum mechanics predictions of the vacuum energy (the cosmological constant) of the empty space are in error by horrendous 120 orders of magnitude.

The mainstream science has gracefully failed to advertise these embarrassing failures of quantum mechanics and have been able to hide them under the beautiful rug of its successes in the domain of matter and particles on local scales, and in electronic gadgetry and toys mesmerizing the common folks. Unfortunately, that also fails badly to represent consciousness and concepts needed for describing spirituality.

Bottom line, symmetry arguments are only artifacts of mistaken assumption of the zero wholesome energy of the universe (since the mainstream science believes that the universe is nothingness because some religious folks and scriptures said so) and not the underlying reality of nature. Truth or spirituality can be founded only on the basis of reality and not myths or mistaken assumptions.

Mainstream quantum mechanics particle physics theories are incomplete (as Einstein said too), and appropriate for applying to spirituality and consciousness. The quantum mechanics is marred with serious unexplained and unresolved paradoxes below:

- quantum gravity,
- dark energy
- dark matter
- anti-matter, symmetry, virtual particles, strings (where is the predicted trillions and trillions of tons of anti-matter expected to exist in equal amounts of the actual observed matter in the universe, so far the claims of the observed anti-matter is extremely limited and not even a nanogram of anti-matter in a stable mode existence has been observed)
- The observer’s or measurement paradox on which the whole validity of quantum observations hangs from.
- Big Bang or black hole singularity
- Unseen or inexperienced multiple universe and multi-dimensions beyond 4 space-time dimensions
- Cosmological constant magnitude being off by 120 orders of magnitude
- Others (observed presence of large galaxies in the early universe, accelerating expansion of the universe, absence of mechanistic understanding of the inner workings of quantum mechanics etc…..)

Just because the current theories have been widely accepted by the mainstream for application to inanimate matter, there exist serious deficiencies in them to be applied to spirituality.

A more consistent scientific basis of consciousness and free will is shown to be the spontaneous decay of the particles or masses via converting to the zero-point energy wherein the space-time dilates to zero representing the eternity and omnipresence. This new innovative approach to consciousness is also shown to resolve the current paradoxes of quantum mechanics, general relativity, and cosmology.

Holistic Relativity - Bridging Quantum Mechanics, Relativity in the Gravity Nullification Model (GNM)

Avtar Singh

Both QM and relativity theories have missing physics – the physics of consciousness or inherent spontaneity that exists in nature. Hence, both formulations provide some contradicting answers or have paradoxes and inconsistencies within themselves. However, QM is a black box of empirical rules that only provides probabilistic answers to the physical phenomena, which are then claimed to be afflicted with uncertainty. Not even the well-known QM experts know the mechanistic physics behind why and how QM works from inside. In the meantime, QM and particle physics have assumed it as a complete theory and forwarded probabilistic explanations of the universe declaring the premature victory on the presumed reality of uncertainty that does not exist in nature but merely an artifact of the unknown black box of purely empirical QM rules.

What I have demonstrated in my book that when one integrates the missing physics into the general relativity via Holistic Relativity model - GNM (Guru Nanak Model), it can explain the inner working of QM and even explain its key internal paradoxes such as the measurement or observer’s paradox as well as to how non-locality works deterministically and mechanistically rather than as predicted probabilistically by QM. So, I am not ignoring or leaving aside QM in my formulations, but revealing what goes inside the black box of QM physically, mechanistically and deterministically and trying to dissolve its premature and incomplete formulations of uncertainty, parallel universes, multiple dimensions, virtual world of anti-particles, myriad of unknown particles and strings that even the sincerest of particle physicists never expect to find, which are nothing but mere artifacts of the missing physics in the black box of QM.

Bottom line, GNM has not only revealed what is inside QM, but also integrated into general relativity to remove the mystical concepts of QM that are not needed or irrelevant to explain the ultimate reality of the universe. GNM transcends and not ignores or bypasses QM. GNM is all inclusive of QM and general relativity, and more - consciousness. A more consistent scientific basis of consciousness and free will is shown to be the spontaneous decay of the particles or masses via converting to the zero-point energy wherein the space-time dilates to zero representing the eternity and omnipresence. This new innovative approach to consciousness is also shown to resolve the current paradoxes of quantum mechanics, general relativity, and cosmology.

My overall impression – QM is just a glorified Newtonian mechanics with its obsolete concepts of separated bodies and forces that worked well for Newtonian world of fixed space and time. These limited concepts may work very well in materialistic world as experienced already. However, QM fragments the one wholesome truth into parts or pieces – particles, and not having proper physics as to how it works inside, when it tries to put together the pieces it gets lost into unknown particles, virtual worlds, parallel universes, uncertainties, multiple dimensions, strings etc; all of which are artifacts of QM own internal mysticism. It is almost an impossible task to unify the fragmented (like seeing the universe thru isolated peepholes from a darkened room) picture painted by QM of the one wholesome truth – Ek Onkar Sat Naam.

GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE WITH THE UNIVERSE.

THE SUM OF PARTS (Particles) IS NOT THE WHOLE.

Just like the waves on the surface of the ocean that are produced by the wind forces do not represent the realities of the deep ocean underneath, the quantum wave functions (representing particles) and forces are only superficial and do not and are fundamentally deficient in representing the deeper realities of the universe – the ocean of consciousness.

Love
Avtar

Lol DK we couldn't go more holistic than what I have written...Perhaps I need to come down a little...

Anyway, please don't take what I have written in any negative way, you know it is not. Mine is more of the nature of an alternative philosophical viewpoint.

Love, Harb

Well .... I decided to read some of the replies, which I usually don't and I must say ... my stomach is now a little weasy. Sorry ... as this is something I am trying to learn to rise above - the effects of another's action upon me, while I attempt to come away with Love. As I was reading this, my boss came back to his office and just slammed his door. I told myself that I would not let another's negative attitude affect me and my boss must have had a hard time with his boss, which usually causes the door slamming. My boss is normally a gentle and kind man and I think somewhat enlightened, as I heard what I presumed to be one his guides while standing in his office. We both heard a woman that was not there, as she was talking. Since I could not understand her, I assumed it was for him, but we never talked about this experience again and I don't want too either. This has only happened 3 times total with others and it gets confusing, as it sounds like a real physical voice in our world, i.e., but the other 2 times, it was the voice of those I hear such as the holy angels singing and one of the little fallen angels. Anyway, my boss was not surprised, as we both just looked at each other at first, so I believe he must hear or has heard before. I thought it was his computer or phone at first, so I said something, which I never do if I think it is Spirit talking. As for our history, we were at war for almost 6 months, as I was ignored for 4 months and my boss would not even look at me nor acknowledge me, which I am sure was as much my fault as him. I tried everything before I went to his boss and applied for a job opening, as I said I had no work to do. And now within this last 6 months, we have been trying to get to know one another, as a result of what was put before us in this unlikely relationship that we must work on to get the job done and work in peace. It is hard to do at times, as I practice and practice :-) but it is progressing for both parties. I am growing and learning about the true Love that resides within us all that cannot be destroyed, as I have always ran away and now I am not running because I would just find this lesson again.

I know ... a long and wordy reflection.

Love, Char

Richard Thomas writes: "I was just reading some quantum research material how virtual particles effect tangible particles which gives strong support to the direction of our journey."

True, and in fact, the whole tangible world (4%)is primarily based on what happens in the intangible quantum world (96%)and yet Avtar Singh seems to have some allergy with this world.

Only today I came upon an article showing that Russian science is trying to build an observatory in space which will help explain dark matter and dark energy, which are supposed to constitute 73% of the universe. Here are some parts:

"Such an orbit, lower than the background by almost one order of magnitude, will result in a significant sensitivity gain, making it possible to produce detailed studies of extended astrophysical objects with low surface brightness (such as clusters of galaxies), providing record spectral sensitivity and angular resolution. About three million cores of active galaxies (super massive black holes) and up to 100,000 galactic clusters are expected to be discovered and help explain the nature of dark matter and dark energy. Current theory has it that they are responsible for the accelerating expansion of the Universe.

Observations of remote galaxies and of the relict radiation from the early stages of evolution confirm that our universe is not stationary, but expands with time. In the past, all models predicted that the expansion was to slow down gradually. Now it has turned out the Universe has been ballooning for the past two billion years with an acceleration, or exploding for the second time after the Big Bang. The physical cause behind the growing expansion is absolutely unclear. Some scientists believe gravitation laws do not closely follow Einstein's general theory of relativity on this scale.

Others do not consider the space vacuum to be absolutely empty, but think it is occupied by a field with some non-zero energy density. Such a field would have remarkable properties, for example, a negative effective pressure, and would "push" the Universe apart. But the forces involved are so small that the vacuum energy can be "seen" only from its effect on the Universe as a whole.

Generally accepted theory does not deny nor postulate the existence of vacuum energy with such properties, and the phenomenon has been dubbed dark energy. It is now known to contribute mostly to the total mass of the Universe - about 73%. This compares with only 4% of matter present in all visible objects (so-called baryon matter) - interstellar gas, the stars, planets, etc. Another 23% is the so-called dark matter.

Once it was established that 95% of the universe consists "of no one knows what," room appeared for new theories, some of them very daring. Many experts in the physics of fundamental interactions and cosmology believe the explanation for dark energy will bring about a new revolution in science, like at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, when Einstein formulated his theory of relativity. Today one of the key problems addressed by all astronomers and astrophysicists throughout the world is to find how dark energy changes with time. The reasons are clear: it is not too often that astronomical measurements lead to fundamental changes in understanding the physical picture of the world...."

Harb

To DK,

Thank you for demonstrating love and kindness. If only the rest of the world could follow your lead. I have been surprised by the fear that I've seen even on intentblog. Please know that you have changed at least one person's responses to criticism and attack. Thank you.

With much love and peace, M

PS. Same to you Richard. By the way, I was not consulted in the polling process either.

Dear, dear D.K.

I cannot help to smile(#15), the Lord made you do it,
just like the Devil makes sinners do it!

Let's not make being 'human' such a bad thing, after All.

Thank you for finally making (with your own voice)
a State of the Union address in #24.

Unfortunately and un-like Bush, a strategy and
success story should next unfold.

Are we going for a ride with A.T.C.A. & Co.?

The way I see it, I BEE is not going to the birds.

The hassle and criticism you come across here is
only the beginning of the trials and tribulations forthcoming.

I know, you know and everybody else certainly knows it.

I, for one, am glad to be of service, if it may be defined as such(ness).

Harb is a comin' on strong with a homeopathic method.

I BEE is the test tube and stirring is sure to cause waves.

In the wake of AIDS, starvation and genocide
who wants to be the first here put their money
where their mouth is, as we say.

Does A.T.C.A. have Bill Gates in the Company? Why not?

First Plane politics, my friend. Go figure!

No dis-respect intended. And if I started something...

well, "I" don't really exist, now do I?

The stage is set and we...I rather, am off to act out dream-time.

Good-night! Me Tree P.O.

Richard, at least you admit that you are for the current war and the next and the next and the next. Your point is clear, it is all their fault; those people are just not smart!

But hey, we are all Holistic, Love and Kind and we are doing our part by giving scientific lectures to the world over the internet. I wish Einstein were alive and listened to all this.

Listen to Harb. Indeed, he is right when he suggests he knows it better. Why? Because he realized how comic this is.

# 16

Dear Swag,

My blessings are with you!

May god heal you soon!

With

Lots and lots of love
and positive energies
and blessings

Please let us know what problem you are facing.

Please express yourself more clearly

With lots and lots of love and happiness
Rajesh Sharma

Fellow bloggers, consider this flowchart as an element of Holistic Knowledge Database.

Science vs Faith

http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20--%20science%20vs%20faith.html

Mieki,

If you may, find a place for this link in the presentation about Holistics at Wiki Site.

Thank You

Dear DK,
When words fall away, and eyes are closed, you cannot tell even which is which.

Always love to you,
and to 'unbroken wholeness'
:)
~ Kate

Dear Robert:

Flowchart:

Start
Get Idea: Unconditional Love
Perform, Experience of 30 years:
"What you radiate you receive back" - Revolution

Good idea, theory created

Use theory to better understand the Universe:
"Follow this intuition" :)

Universal field of knowledge: intuition found all over the Internet
Evidence: :)

Can theory be modified to explain new evidence?
Yes : Common Ground

Start with: "Conversations of David Bohm and Jiddu Krishnamurti about "The Ending of Time"

Essence: How to dialogue?

Love, Mieke

Dear Avtar,

Uncertainty : hour of silence

Heisenberg's uncertainty: Existence is pure joy, or Lighten the ways of the KA

Observer: keep silence

Observer's Paradox: From Gold Forge Steel or Star of the Morning

Spacetime : Spirit
Spirit: Spacetime

Multiple Universe: Interior Universe

Quantum Mechanics: Heart of the Master or inner sanctuary

Quantum Relativity: Enter of the threshold

Quantum Gravity: Refine the rapture

Free will: Alchemist, Inspire

Antimatter: Silent Self, great secret

Zero: nuit, Orbit, Dust

Big Bang: Self

Black hole singularity: crowned and conquering sword of Spirit or Uplifted in thine Heart

Strings: Infinity, True Self, Sphynx, Collective

Cosmological constant magnitude: Love is the law, love under will

Much love, Mieke

Rumi, Translated by Coleman Barks

"My Worst Habit"

.

My worst habit is I get so tired of winter
I become a torture to those I'm with.

If you are not here, nothing grows.
I lack clarity. My words
tangle and knot up.

How to cure bad water? Send it back to the river.
How to cure bad habits? Send me back to you.

When water gets caught in habitual whirlpools,
dig a way out through the bottom
to the ocean. There is a secret medicine
given only to those who hurt so hard
they can't hope.

The hopers would feel slighted if they knew.

Look as long as you can at the friend you love,
no matter whether that friend is moving away from you
or coming towards you.

.

Remember...it's beyond the field.
Kind regards for feeling as above.

Re #39 by Robert Karl)

Spirituality
------------

Start

> Find who am really "I"

> Live accordingly

> Does living supports the find

> Yes > No
> Theory Created ^ Further Introspect

> Use Theory to better living

> Learn from living

> Can Theory be modified to explain the difference?

> Yes >No
> Improve Theory ^Quantum Jump to next phase

> Use improved theory to better living

Harb

meikie:

Start with: "Conversations of David Bohm and Jiddu Krishnamurti about "The Ending of Time"

Essence: How to dialogue?

I have the complete collections of the conversations of David Bohm and Jiddu Krishnamurti on video which were first broadcast on PBS Network over a series of episodes. I managed to see all of them. I can assure you that apart from a short term inspiration and a shot to boost, to expolre further into related subjects, not many would gain much from the grim and dry philosophical dialogue. Regarding the question, how to dialogue? I don't think Krishnamurti, as much as he may sound rational and convincing, is not the best place to start for anything. I wouldn't recommend his "excess" philosophy in the rest of his works.

Siddharth

PS:

"Remember...it's beyond the field.
Kind regards for feeling as above."

lesser of the two fools?

To those who are not familiar with David Bohm and Krishna:

David Bohm and Jiddo Krishnamurti.

http://thinkg.net/david_bohm/martin_gardner_on_david_bohm_and_krishnamurti.html

excerpts:

"As Bohm's friend and collaborator David Peat tells it in his biography of Bohm, Infinite Potential (1997), young Krishnamurti actually believed for a time that he was indeed the incarnation of Lord Maitveya, and the true successor to Jesus. His consciousness and that of Maitveya had merged; the "beloved" spoke through him. Although Krishnamurti outgrew the theosophical nonsense Besant and Leadbeater had drummed into him, he never stopped believing that he and he alone among living mortals knew the truth about everything. His teaching was a mix of dull platitudes and murky phrases such as "the observer is the observed," "thinking is the thought," "choiceless awareness," and that to be transformed one must "die to the moment." He was convinced that when a person was radically changed through proper meditation there were actual mutations in the brain!"

"Krishnamurti's name was on more than forty books, as well as on endless audio and video tapes. The Ending of Time (1985) was a book coauthored with Bohm. I have done my best to try to read some of these books without falling asleep. It is hard to understand how the author of such vapid ideas could have mesmerized listeners, most of them women, when he lectured, and to have captured the admiration of a great physicist. His lines are like those in Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky." As Alice remarked, they seem to mean something, but it's hard to pin down just what. There is never a hint in Krishnamurti's writings of a personal God or the survival of personality after death. He almost never refers to or quotes from any other thinker. His vision is a kind of watered-down Buddhism in which the key message is that everything is interconnected and one must live in the moment, without fear, and accept everything that happens with resignation and tranquility. The same infuriating vagueness permeates books written by his admirers."

" There were two Krishnamurtis. One was the persona presented to the world through lectures and books; a man without ego who led a sanctified life of celibacy and high moral purity. The other Krishnamurti was a shadowy, self-centered, vain man, capable of sudden angers and enormous cruelty to friends. He was also a habitual liar. Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected."

"Raja's wife Rosalind was a beautiful American Caucasian who grew up in Hollywood, a friend of movie stars, who almost became a professional tennis player. Toward the end of Krishna's life an astonishing revelation came to light. For nearly thirty years, unknown to Raja, Rosalind had been Krishna's mistress! As such, she had undergone a miscarriage and several abortions, all miraculously kept secret from her husband."

"A story in Mrs. Sloss's book reveals how little Krishnamurti understood science. America's funniest and nuttiest medical quack was Dr. Albert Abrams. You can read about him in my Fads and Fallacies. Abrams invented a bizarre electrical machine which he claimed could diagnose all ailments from a drop of blood, and could cure terrible diseases by electrical rays. Like the writer and socialist Upton Sinclair, Krishna became convinced that Abrams's machine did everything he claimed it did. He sent Abrams a blood sample, and was told he had cancer in his intestines and left lung, and syphilis in his spine and nose. After being treated for a while by Abrams's machine, Krishna said he felt much better."

"After learning about Krishnamurti's secret love affair with his best friend's wife, Bohm felt betrayed. Perhaps this plunged him into his third and final deep depression. Hospitalized, suffering from paranoia and thoughts of suicide, Bohm underwent fourteen episodes of shock therapy before he recovered sufficiently to leave the mental hospital. Earlier triple bypass surgery on his heart had been successful, but his death in 1991, at age 75, was from a massive heart attack. Krishnamurti had died six years earlier, at his home in Ojai, of pancreatic cancer. His body was cremated."

"In his biography of Bohm, David Peat tells how Bohm carried with him a key bent by Uri Geller as if it were a holy relic. When the key later disappeared, Bohm took this to be Geller's psychokinetic powers at work from a distance. When the key was found an hour later, he believed this to be another paranormal event! Bohm's close associate Basil Hiley at once recognized Geller as a charlatan. He often warned Bohm that if he appeared to endorse Geller it would damage their work. Bohm agreed to back away from Geller. As Hiley said to Peat, Bohm often had to be saved from idiots."

"Bohm's Eastern metaphysics, even though it helped shape his interpretation of quantum mechanics, should not be held against the potential fruitfulness of his pilot wave theory. In a similar fashion Isaac Newton's Biblical fundamentalism and his alchemical research cast no shadows over his contributions to physics. Nor did Kepler's belief in astrology throw doubts on his great discoveries"

" Einstein once said that his misgivings about the Copenhagen interpretation of QM came from something he felt in his little finger. For decades his intuitions were ridiculed by Bohr and his followers. They never ceased to express sorrow over how the great man had deserted them by refusing, in his senior years, to view QM as a beautiful, complete theory, in no need of being replaced or modified.

It is too bad that Einstein did not live to see an increasing number of top physicists, such as Roger Penrose, Jeffrey Bub, and John Bell, who suspected, and today suspect, that the old maestro may turn out to be right after all."

Dear DK,
Another great post from you in the HQR series.
I read Bohm's papers before but I never quite understood what he wanted to convey by his "implicate order" and "explicate order", "wholeness" and so on. I understood it today from your post. Thanks.

That "an implicate enfolded order exists in an un-manifested state which is the foundation upon which all manifest reality rests", is the Truth that Bohm learnt from J.Krishnamoorthy, which he expressed in his own words. Bohm tried hard to make use of this learning to explain some existing paradoxes in quantum mechanics but I do not think he was successful.

Dear Syamala,
I hope all is well with you! To see your comments always has a healing effect on me.
your admirer,
Todd

Dear Todd,
Thanks and I admire you too sir.

The Unmanifest Manifested
The Technique of Materialization
(Entering Virtual Reality and Returning)
During the time of my out of body experimentation in between sojourns to The Brainmapping Project at The Monroe Institute one OBE stood out and taught me something significant. I went through my usual meditation and left my body immediately appearing within a light filled dimension. A being of light approached me and said welcome to the 2nd heaven. Please help yourself to the buffet. I stood before a buffet of a variety of foods composed of brilliant light. The being of light said make your choice. I grasped a silver bowl filled with a strawberry cake combination. Having no silverware I ate the delicious dessert with my fingers. Immediately I returned to my body in my earthly home with a seemingly solid (material) bowl of strawberry shortcake. For maybe 30 seconds I ate the cake with my fingers and was amazed at what was occuring. Gradually the bowl started to phase out (wink out) from the room and my sight. I realized the particles were decaying quickly for they were composed of fast vibrating light. So in other words the lifetime of the subtle matter was shorter but was capable of physically manifesting indeed. Looking at this event many years later I can see modern day physics radiating from the process itself. I see a connection between science and spirituality. A modern day alchemical reaction!
Todd

Todd, by any chance do you know whether being of light was a male or female. I ask because if it ever happened to me and it was a female I would like to pass the time loving the lights out of her rather than opt for the 'lighty' buffet lol.

Harb

To all scientists who want to explain phenomena in the universe perceivable by senses, by bringing in Oneness or Wholeness,

About non-locality that "has profound implications for the prevailing world view of reality in that it clearly demonstrates the inter-connectedness between all 'matter' and 'energy' in the Physical Universe":
What are we saying here? Because we find non-local phenomena in the physical world, and because Oneness is non-local therefore, Oneness must be the one causing these non-local phenomena? Sure, Oneness is the basis of all non-local phenomena but it is also the basis of all local phenomena. Nevertheless, has any scientist ever demonstrated following the rules of scientific reasoning how Oneness is taking part in any specific non-local phenomenon? Otherwise aren't JK and Bohm saying the samething but using different words? Where is unification?

I am reminded of a dog chasing it's tail.

Dear Matai,

Beautiful # 42, especially here:

"I don't know if there is anyway to reach these people in Iraq divided by religion..."

You say that it could be replaced with:

"I don't know if there is anyway to reach the people across the world divided by their self-serving view..."

I agree and I will tell you what, one does not need to study Quantum Physics Holistic Relativity or whatever the name we give to see this.

With Love...thanks for the comforting reply.

Dear Harb,
I suppose if I wanted to manifest the woman of my dreams for an encounter my intention would come up with something. I don't see any reason why you can't do the same!
Todd

Dear Janet, as to the "infuriating vagueness" of some phylosophers, here is what Deepak says:

>>At the present moment two kinds of intolerance exist that are both based on oversimplified answers to the question, "Why did I do that?" One oversimplification is science, which tries to reduce any behavior to a mechanistic, materialistic model. The other false answer holds that religious fanaticism is an all-powerful, utterly blind motivation. Neither is true.

That is precisely why you can not understand, for instance, J. Krishnamurti. Holding on to a religious OR scientific view (probably the latter is your case) can only infuriate because 'that has been proven' not to be the way.

Dear Janet,
The phrases "the observer is the observed," "thinking is the thought," might have been murky to David Peat but not to us on the HQR blog. We talk about Oneness all the time.

From your quote ""Bohm's Eastern metaphysics, even though it helped shape his interpretation of quantum mechanics, should not be held against the potential fruitfulness of his pilot wave theory. In a similar fashion Isaac Newton's Biblical fundamentalism and his alchemical research cast no shadows over his contributions to physics. Nor did Kepler's belief in astrology throw doubts on his great discoveries" It sounds like David views Eastern metaphysics on the same footing as alchemical research or astrology.

Todd, Re #53, sorry, in my previous reply I was in a bit of a playful mood. Here is a serious one.

In my book I have written that according to my forces theory - decreasing influence of gravity, electromagnetism etc and increasing influence of strong force or weak force etc as the case may be - as we will go on evolving, we will move to higher and higher planets where we will perhaps become beings of virtual particles who will disappear here and appear there as is now shown in Hindu Mythological films...

Perhaps in some way your freaky nature/experiences sometimes shows glimpses of those higher planes...

Here are a few relevant paragraphs from my book (Mosc may be read as our soul, spirit or whatever).

Quote:

Perhaps plants at such higher regions would simply cease to exist - for they are basically the species which came into existence because of Mosc’s need to go against gravity, and when gravity would be only of marginal value plants existence would also have only marginal possibility. Animals perhaps would be like as they are now shown in some Hindu mythological texts - simply flying into air, obviously mainly because of the attractions and repulsions of the now prominent electromagnetic forces.

Men, to cut the long story short, at still some higher regions where even the electromagnetic forces would cease to dominate and give the place of prominence to strong interactions, simply because strong interactions mainly operate in the virtual realm, would develop the powers to go virtual here only to appear there, at some other place, again just as they are now shown in the same above-mentioned mythologies in the form of semi-gods or angels.

As to the bodies, animals may be having no legs only the middle bodies with comparatively larger heads than now. Men, besides having no legs may have only comparatively smaller middle bodies and may develop proportionately larger head regions (is that why some angels in Hindu mythologies are shown with more heads than one?).

Supermen, at those or at still some higher regions, where the weak forces would be the dominating forces, simply because they would operate again at the heart region would have comparatively smaller heads and larger middle/heart portions.

Progressing thus they would ultimately become like some far-off stars. We have in our own way called them the lumps of pure light or intelligence. And have explained the relevancy between these two in some previous chapter.

Mosc acquired the various bodies because of its entanglement into four basic forces, and as it would go on disentangling from them so it would go on shedding bodies. It is reasonable to assume that ultimately shorn of all bodies, in something similar to what the scientists call the gravitational collapse of a star, it would merge again into itself.

Though only to explode again as we have already explained.
Unquote

Re #58, yes, it is true that if I had wanted, my intention would have created the woman...and in fact I did create by beloved of the times once in my youth, (I did not tell anybody for I knew no body would understand it and in fact even I did not understand it then) but since long I have told One that I have no separate intention now, that I am not wise enough to know what I really need at any moment, and so His/Its intention is my intension. And this arrangement is working well too. As I already said, I was just in a playful mood.

Harb

D.K. and friends,

You may not like me bringing up the following questions,
so please don't feel it a necessity to answer.
I'm from the "Show-Me State" of Missouri so I tend
towards waiting for direct experience of phenomenal
activity. That's not to say I don't have faith.

I grew up believing in miracles because that's what I was taught. By that I mean "law-breaking",
"earth-shattering", "that's not supposed to happen" kind of event.

Having read a lot about various Masters besides reading
their own words, I keep coming across figures who
display some para-normal attributes. Supermen, as
Harb describes them. I have heard of very few women Masters.

Does anyone here (besides me) believe these claims
or has anyone witnessed such a display? I do not
"know" if it's possible, but there is a bunch of
testimonials and eye-witness accounts in books.
I was also taught not to believe everything you read.

I'm sure to unconsciously leave something out so
if anyone wants to add to the list, be my guest.

Is it possible or are there real people who can do the following:

1. Read minds and telepathically communicate
2. Perform psychokinesis (moving stuff without touching)
3. Move about from place to place at a very high speed
4. Have more than one body(their own) at a time
5. Live on 3 grains of rice per week
6. Take life-sustaining substances(?) from the atmosphere(prana)
7. Read the future, whether by astrology or otherwise
8. Mingle and communicate with Jinns, Devas or Elves
9. Produce objects or water out of or from thin air(nowhere)
10. Stop their heart and/or stop the breath for 7 or more minutes
11. Levitate or walk on water
12. Live more than one thousand years
13. Defeat death completely (Jesus Christ)my fav.

I just had to bring it up, being Mr. Curious II.
I am dead serious though and I admit to entertaining
the thought of such 'things'. I'd like to think
that where there's smoke there's fire. I'm also
prone to exaggeration and I have a wild imagination at times.

Someone, please indulge for Me2 fools.
Sorry if this seems like an intrusion on the subject at hand,
but I trust all the contributors who play a part
in this weaving project.

Thanks bunches, Keith~

Dear Harb:

I love QM and not allergic to it as you say. At the same time I am not an addict of the QM stuff. I respect QM for giving us cell phones, TVs, and may be quantum computers soon. Bravo to QM for that.

But here at IB, we are talking spirituality that is where I am trying to give everyone a new insight that relativity has the right physics to address consciousness and spirituality, and QM does not because its very formulation is founded on fragmentation of reality into particles or pieces. And when it tries to put them together, the sum of the parts is not the whole.

Again and again, you are missing the subtle and important insight I am bringing to everyone’s light. That is

Einstein was and is Right
Einstein was and is Right
Einstein was and is Right……..

How many times I have to tell you to make this subtle point stick. Even cosmology and quantum field theories are reverting back to Einstein’s originally proposed Cosmological Constant to explain the dark energy and the expanding universe. All materialists of QM are engaged in proving Einstein wrong, but time after time, test after test they all have failed.

The beauty of this subtle message is that it is inspired and supported by the very essence of the teachings of our spiritual masters. When you combine the intuition and insights of Einstein and Spiritual masters, it becomes almost unbeatable by materialists.

Please grasp the subtle message I am trying to bring to everyone’s attention rather than become a blind servant to the mainstream QM theory and its claims. Our mission here at IB is not to be subservient to either QM or relativity, but to suggest the most appropriate way to unify science and spirituality. Please do not throw the baby of consciousness with the bathwater of the paradoxes of quantum mechanics. God bless you if you cannot pickup and run with this new insight but rather keep singing the old tune of the QM goddess.

It is time to turn the clock back to general relativity just because it has the right framework as I have shown in my book from basics to predicting the actual supernova data showing the observed expansion of the universe. Just inserting a simple equation of consciousness (equation 3-2) in my book into general relativity solves key paradoxes of not only QM but also the unresolved mysteries of the universe as demonstrated in my book comparing with a variety of observed data including the supernova based expansion of the universe. And this simplifies physics tremendously restoring its elegance and beauty at the same time maintaining the original formulations of general relativity that predicts the physical classical world as well as the quantum world with the integrated consciousness model. The integration of consciousness just makes general relativity complete and consistent with QM, spirituality and consciousness.

Rather than grasping the new subtle and deep rooted insight, you are suggesting as if our mission here IB was to solely serve the QM mainstream as to how to improve their formulations without suggesting any concrete mathematical framework and presenting only philosophical and metaphysical metaphors.

I hope that with your deep insight and intuition, you will grasp the subtle and elegant message of the spiritual masters and Einstein and run with it rather than chasing the wild geese of particles, forces, and uncertainty. Use QM or worship it for where it has power that is to exploit matter. But do not get blindly addicted to it for exploring spirituality.

The license plate on the QM car is saying – “DO NOT FOLLOW ME, I AM LOST.” What I am trying to tell you that – “DO NOT SIT IN THAT CAR IF YOUR DESTINATION IS SPIRITUALITY.”

Again, I can only bring horse to the water; I cannot force it to drink.

Love
Avtar

Dear Syamala:

Your Beautiful Question: “has any scientist ever demonstrated following the rules of scientific reasoning how Oneness is taking part in any specific non-local phenomenon? Otherwise aren't JK and Bohm saying the samething but using different words? Where is unification?”

Answer: In my book- The Hidden Factor, Chapter 6 – “Unraveling Quantum Mechanics Using GNM” describes explicit mathematical formulations and figures predicting transition from quantum to classical behavior based on the collapse of the wave function. Such a prediction is made possible by inclusion of the consciousness model into general relativity. Hence, GNM explicitly describes the role of consciousness in the unification of both the local (classical) and non-local (dilated space/time) phenomena.

Dear DK and IB friends: I am trying to present some very new, deep, and thought-provoking insights here with a hope that they may kick off a new spark in some of you to think anew throwing away the veil of the past and in-the-box mainstream QM thinking.

If I failed, I would have contentment in making an attempt, similar to my ongoing efforts with enlightening the mainstream science dominated by QM and particle physics.

Love

Avtar

Keith,
Yes, I heard about a few female Masters in India. Mira Alfassa known as the Mother was an associate of Aurobindo and was a spiritual Master. Sarada Devi, wife of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was one. A more recent one is Kiranmayi. There have been many other enlightened women in India who could not speak English and therefore not known sometimes even outside their state.
How about Mother Teresa?

Re: Dr David Bohm, J Krishnamurthy et al

There is nothing wrong in what Krishnamurti said and his personal life need not come in the way to understand his philosophy. He rejected messiahhood yet had to suffer it/fame.

This link maybe of interest, on this topic, more got to do with our 2 way communication of the etheric field!

http://www.cymatherapy.com/pdfs/Hydrogen-Atom.pdf

Keith,

Infinite possibilities of various permutations and combinations of matter/energy/forms/organizing principle exist in this world. Yet one would better ignore what one's reason does not understand/accept. But at the same time one need not fight for the other party. Entangling in them in any way is harmful to one's spiritual growth/evolution, which is to realize one's identity with the one which is the basis on which all such things/permutations and combinations happen. Then one will go beyond being curious about such things in both ways.

For example, the evolutionary goal of a child is to grapple with gravity and come up triumphs. So that now he is able to run/jump without falling and eventually without paying much attention to it. Now imagine if a child instead gets lost in twisting his arms or legs in astonishing ways, instead of doing his normal job of trying to get up, run, jump. He may be entertaining people, you as a child yourself may get astonished in his displays but if you will get overly involved in them you will suffer in terms of your own normal life which again is to tackle gravity, to be able to rise, run, jump. Similarly, most of the above are the tricks of the mind while one's need now may be to go beyond mind in a way.

Harb

Kieth,
Miracles are stumbling blocks. A magician can misdirect your attention and make you think you've seen a miracle. Ever watched David Blain?

I believe we are all already Spiritual Masters, from conception. We take ourselves further away from our inner master as we allow fear to build up over our light. Then we start asking questions trying to find our light. Eventually we believe the questions and the answers are the truth. Then hopefully we grow to stop asking the questions and realize there is no answer. We just are.

Isn't the hope of a spiritual seeker to let go of everything and just be?

I believe all the meditation, rituals, chanting, scientific theories and spiritual disciplines only bring us back to what we already knew before we had to do all the meditations and rituals and theories.

Once you try to understand or explain "oneness" you start slipping away from it.

slippin' back in

derek

ps. really I'm not trying to be a pest, I just know most people would not even take the time to try and understand all these complex concepts. If they have no relevance to the masses, what's the point. Is it to just impress to other intellectuals and spiritual leaders.
Yo, will you guys argue back and forth with all your theories
the masses are growing past you.

yo, while you guys............

Hi,

SUPPOSE A TOTALLY "ENLIGHTENED" MAN IS ON THE 40TH FLOOR OF A 50 FLOOR BUILDING.

AN AEROPLANE STRIKES THAT BUILDING, AND THE BUILDING STARTS TO CRUMBLE DOWN.

THE "TOTALLY ENLIGHTENED MAN" WOULD RUN TO SAVE HIS LIFE.

QUESTION IS "why does an enlightened man also have to run for his life, if he is all and all are him"

Rajesh Sharma

Dear DK, Avtar,

For starters, I may tell that both Relativity and Quantum theories if completely understood can describe the world fully.

Imagine the journey of a tree from germination of a seed to again to germination of the next seed. In this, apparently two events have simultaneously happened.

1.A tree has completed its full course of evolution, of disentangling from a seed (from forces).

2.A tree has completed its full course of 'devolution', of entangling into a (next) seed (into forces).

Yet both the events are one!

Similarly, I think though Relativity theory is said to describe disentanglement from forces in an evolving universe, it at the same time must somehow be describing entanglement into forces as well. Or Quantum theory, which is said to describe entanglement into forces, must somehow be describing disentanglement as well.

So I think both the relativity theory and quantum theory when fully understood will describe complete picture of the world. In other words, relativity theory then will contain quantum theory in it and vice versa.

But when this will be done I think a follower of relativity theory, like our friend Avtar Singh should be able to explain all what he calls artifacts of quantum theory as well rather than ignore them. Otherwise even though correct up to a certain limit, Avtar Singh to me is premature in saying that he has solved all the riddles of the world by his Relativistic theory. He must be able to tell what is antimatter, where it has gone, what is virtual matter, how and where it fits into the scheme of things etc etc. At least he should be able to predict some events in the universe which people can check.

Till then, the following position is better for me:

Holistic = Spiritual Realm = Soul = Bohm’s Super Quantum Potential – Indescribable – houses the universal game of life, yet is beyond it as well.

Quantum = The universe gets entangled into forces. Governed by non-local connections. Beginning of what we usually mean by the word consciousness. Mind. (Thoughts, reflective of the world within - of deep-seated memories, wishes, desires etc at our levels). Beginning of web of interconnections. Evolution moves basic-force-wise by basic-force-wise in quantum jumps. Causes mutations in Relativity governed world. Ends in annihilation when meets with the world of relativity at the end of evolution, most probably in the spontaneous decay of some far-off star.

Relativity = The universe gets disentangled from forces. Governed by speed of light barrier. Beginning of what we usually call ‘this world’ consciousness. Body/Brain. Thoughts, reflective of the world without. Manifesting one web of interconnections into separate webs of interconnections. Evolution moves in slow, continuous change. Adaptation to mutations and then to keep the status quo as long as possible. Ends in annihilation when meets with the quantum world at the end of evolution most probably in the spontaneous decay of some far-off star.

Harb

PS: I am not a scientist, so neither a follower of quantum theory nor of relativity theory. So naturally I do not know much of them. My subject is evolution through four forces, all the rest is secondary. So if I am wrong please just ignore. Yes, talk to me about evolution through four basic forces at any time. In terms of that I will fully support Avtar Singh when he seems to end the evolution in spontaneous decay of stars (I have already written about it in my book)or when he is talking of science of consciousness as I have already predicted that our science will move towards this. But beyond this, only a mathematician or scientist can tell how far he is correct in presenting these things in mathematics or in science.

Avtar you're Terrific in your clarity. The way you explain it. I can see why you're tying to remove the chaff of old q.p and move fwd. Your ultimate goal being to merge science with spirituality. Human minds have thick skin, it won't be easy for you to pierce them. They take ages to shift from the old paradigm to the new. You've to be patient, as you rightly said about the horse.

Dear DK, your post reminds me of first few lines of Lao Tze's Tao Te Ching:

"The Way that can be spoken is not the Eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the Eternal Name.
Nameless, the Way is the source of Heaven and Earth;

[Comment = Indescribable = In fact not even with the word Holistic, houses everything.]

Named, it is the Mother of all beings.

[Enter any word, holistic, consciousness, EkOmKar and so on. The game has begun, one has become two, one becomes knowing principle the other extended principle, mind/body, described by quantum theory/relativity theory ]

He that is free from selfish desires shall behold it in spirit;

[Spirit = On which maya or illusory world plays its game = beginning of quantum world, mind, thoughts, in its purity abode of spiritual masters]

He that is possessed by passions, in the outward form alone,

[Mayaic world, Relativity world, body, Most people, with mine one leg also in it lol]

And those two are one in substance, though differing in name;

[Holistic Quantum Relativity]

Depth, and the depth of depths, the entrance to all spiritual life."

[Back to Indescribable}

Harb

[All saved, since

#77
"

Sorry, I see the other way around. In fact seen from outside-in, from the side of bodies, it is as above; but seen from inside-out, from the side of mind or "I" or unifying consciousness 'point' it is the other way arund. Then quantum theory's observer binds all, holistically...[It is proved by the fact that deeeper science goes MORE universe it covers...]

In fact from one side (macro side) Relativity embraces the whole universe through gravity, from the other side (micro side) quantum theory does the same through weak interactions. Actually, according to my knowledge, no body as yet has talked about observer or gluons in the context of relativity theory, while these are common words, in the context of quantum theory.

Perhaps silence like Lao Tze will be best...lol.

Dear DK, yes, indeed, and that was my next step on the journey. Perhaps I encountered an intermediate landing to think of silence...

But I did not say we will never know, I said it is indescribable. To tell you the truth I have never been in doubt of its knowledge ever since I had my first experience. Describing it is something else...and in terms of science/prevailing religious terms still more so. And then, you need an equally able audience. Perhaps then you will not have to speak even a word....

I agree with St. Augustine what he said of Time, if we substiture Truth for Time:"What is Time? I know if nobody asks. But if somebody asks I do not know."

Glad to meet you, Harb

Friends,

Thank you for your responses.
I'll catch back up later, gotta go to work.

I will say that putting limitations upon ourselves
works.

No boundaries.

Dominion over things in Heaven and on Earth.

Saint Paul said that we should desire and pray for spiritual gifts.

As long as they're used to benefit the whole and
not to gain fortune and fame it is and remains a service.

Want the eye of the public?
Catch their intention?

If in summary all we have to say is "be good",
the do-gooders will continue to rake in all the goods.

The power of God used to be important.

"Fear of the Lord" used to be called the first step to Wisdom.

I'm just saying, people who call themselves Christians
have a different take on what it takes to progress in faith.

If "All is God" including you and I, then I don't see a problem with sin.

Chow, Keith~~

Dear DK

Can #77 become a new thread? It expresses the essentials of this project with passionate clarity, it seems to me, and has many hooks for further discussion.

There are two things in #77 I'm thinking about: What is love? If Holistic Quantum Relativity, then why Holistics with Relativity without Quanta (i.e., why not simply Holistic Relativity)?

love, Heath

Dear DK and all,
# 77 brings clarity to the concept of HQR. Thanks DK.
I am particularly happy that you mentioned "Our minds are Quantum Computers, hence the volatilities in our thoughts". That makes HQR HQRC. Remember you said "Mind (Thoughts, memories, and desires) is a different type of matter". Yes, it is also part of Maya or Sakti. It is the software component of Maya and is in fact, more illusive than the hardware component, the physical universe which is perceivable by the senses. Mind is subtle and not accessible by external senses although we are quite aware of its existence. Mind IS energy; desire and thought are the cause for every movement of the physical body. All the so far developed QM and Relativity have not understood mind.
In Relativity, a measuring instrument is the real observer; the human scientist simply records numbers displayed by the instrument that receives data from light signals. So, Relativity is good and pure in the sense that it does not mess with mind. Its conclusions (for example, that space and time are not absolute and that the space-time world-view depends upon who is observing it) are consistent with and part of the Truth experienced by spiritual Masters.
QM has contradictions within itself and with Relativity. Bringing in consciousness to remove these inconsistencies made QM worse by physicists who confuse randomness with free will, and thought with consciousness and mind with brain. They really need help from spiritual Masters to clear their confusion. Bohm tried to get that help. J.Krishnamoorthy (JK) repeatedly stated that thought and remembering are mechanical processes and not part of consciousness. For example, my computer acts like it "knows" an object when a representation of that object called a computer-word, is written into its memory. The computer really does not know the meaning of its words although it uses them in all its processes. Writing something into a memory, retrieving it upon demand, and using stored material in logical processes are all mechanical (NOT part of consciousness), no matter whether they are carried out in a computer or in a brain. BTW, JK also stated that thought survives the physical body (contrary to what David Peat might have said about him) and it is consistent with the thesis that mind is a different kind of matter, not the same as the matter of the physical body.
Nor is randomness identical with free will. When a coin is flipped, one may say it is the free will of the coin that is deciding whether to show head or tail. Unfortunately, there is no good way to win that argument; if the amount, direction of the momentum, and the surrounding air pressure at the moment of throw are all taken into account, it may be possible to explain why the head or the tail turned up.

Dear DK, seems you are right in your perspective in #77, more so as Heath and Syamala too have understood it easily and concurred with it.

Only I have some serious problem in understanding it. I am sure with your help I will be able to clear my confusion.

1.

Relativity theory is principally a theory of gravity. I had heard that gravity describes the world from molecule level and above. That to me is the physical world through and through. Now above you equate quantum subset with physical world. You must be having your reasons but please explain to me so that I can reorient my thinking.

Likewise, quantum theory is principally theory pertaining to very small particles, photons etc. They to me would be farthest from the usually understood physical world. Please clear the picture to me.

Rest I will ask after this clarification.

Dear Syamala,
I would be interested in learning a little more about you. My email is mti2012@yahoo.com. If you have the time please write.
sincerely,
Todd

Dear Syamala, BTW, did you write something about Tachyons in some paper a few years back...

Harb

Dear DK,#86: No Advaita (non-duality) without Dvaita (duaity) and no Dvaita without Advaita...

Of course beyond that there is always Advaita but then that cannot be the subject of discussions...

Harb

Dear DK
Thanks for encouraging me to submit a write-up to HQR. I will certainly do so.

Dear Todd,
Thanks for asking me to write to you. It will give me great pleasure to write to you and hear from you.

Dear Harb,
Yes. I wrote about Tachyons in a few papers some years ago. My conjecture was and is that thought, memories, and desires all consist of tachyons. This idea is supported by the theme "mind is faster than matter" so often stated in ancient Indian philosophy. Feinberg wrote the first paper on tachyons stating that existence of tachyons is consistent with Relativity theory because their masses are not real but imaginary (square root of minus 1)! As is well known, he tried to detect them in his lab and failed. Immediately after that, there was considerable interest in tachyons in the physicist community and gradually faded because there was no experimental evidence. Some of the papers were very good in that they emphasized the non-local nature of tachyons. Tachyons fit very well in QM; Fineberg himself attempted a theory of interaction of tachyons with ordinary matter. My conjecture is that thought in a brain involves tachyonic waves and it should be possible to detect their presence from the dispersion relations of EEG waves. Anyway, my conjecture remains a conjecture even now because as you can easily see, getting it to the status of a theory reqiures expertise in so many fields of science. But it still remains my favorite topic and I am excited when you ask me about it.

Being dumb as opposed to Consciousness is not necessarily ugly nor useless. On the contrary, it is beautiful and very useful in the sense that it is a building block of the dual universe. So also, illusion is not something to be shunned at. It is fun. I realized this when I went to Disney World and watched a 3D show by Kodak. The show began with many mice running away from the screen towards us when all the lights were turned off and then we felt the mice tickling our feet. The audience laughed instead of being annoyed. They knew that mice were not really tickling their feet and simply enjoyed the fact that the feeling was an illusion. There were other episodes in the show and the final one was the biggest thrill. A python first appeared on the screen and slowly started moving towards us. The nearer it came, the louder was the laughter in the room. When it finally reached us and opened its mouth to swallow us, the room was filled with roaring laughter. Why? because illusion is fun when we know that it is illusion. There were also some weak-minded people like me who closed their eyes although we knew very well that the python is merely an illusion and not real. Isn't the power of illusion amazing that it can get you even when you know it is not real! There were one or two children in the room who cried out of fear. So, illusion can cause misery if we think it is real.

Dear DK

Thanks for reading my requests and responding.

Dear syamala

I look forward to your HQR piece with excitement. I like your tachyons theory.

love, Heath

Dear Syamala,

Wonderful! I myself have taken Tachyons exactly in the same way as you - as those particles of which our thoughts are made up. And I have even incorporated them/particles moving beyond the speed of light in my four forces theory. For me there is a universe (Body)in which things cannot move beyond the speed of light and there is a virtual universe (Mind- inverted pyramid?) where things cannot move below the speed of light. And that a creative, corresponding dialogue goes on between them till complete correspondence between them is reached and both the worlds annihilate themselves or 'supersymmetrize themslves to death' to barrow the words of Paul Davies, and what is left then is again our One or Spirutal Realm.

I have even explained that in the quation E = +/- m(+/-C)2 the minus value of C actually represents the world where 'things' (obviously signals) cannot move below the speed of light.

Wow, I never thought I will come across somebody even knowing about Tachyons not to talk of having written a paper on them. I incorporated particles moving beyond the speed of light as they should be there according to my insight and I did not bother to get approval of the scientists. And I thought incidence of non-locality - by now well accepted - should be enough to prove there existence even if they cannot be detected experimentally. As Ramana Maharshi said "Where science ends philosophy begins.." so perhaps now what can be explained in terms of rationality/rational philosophy should be sufficient to prove the existence of something even if that is not proved experimentally.

Love, Harb

Dear Syamala re#93, Well said. I think even going beyond, there is nothing dumb. Arn't God and Consciousness immanent in everything? Ramana Maharshi used to say "To a Jnani (enlightened person) everybody is a Jnani." So perhaps when our own vision is right everything is conscious. And really some times you feel everything is 'talking' to you...

Also, things if seen as forms are an illusion but seen as substance of which those forms are made are not. So when we go beyond the illusion thing it is not that we no longer see this physical world but that now we see it as substance, as ONE SOMETHING changing forms. For example, a ring of gold seen as a ring may be an illusion for tomorrow it may change form, but seen as gold it need not for gold it will always remain in whatever form.

Harb

Dear Avtar, refer my #75.

As I have said in my above post - as also already in my book - that Relativity theory if completely understood (or completed which perhaps you may have)will be able to describe the whole universe, you may be right after all! So please try to find a couple of well-meaning scientists with the help of DK and show your equations to them. Truth after all cannot remain hidden for long and I am sure you will earn well-deserved recognition sooner or later.

Dear DK why not show Avtar's work to your scientist friends at CERN or at ATCA!?

D.K. and friends,

Who said, "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet." ?
Unification thinks differently, perhaps the Time has come.

Psychology and Physics shall unify with Biology and Systemology.

A common language for verbal exchange is needed
whereas math is already universal.

The way I see it, you may have more luck pursuing
physicists from the East. Surely, India contains
all that is necessary in that regard.(?)

If Avtar's approach to solving or dissolving the
divisions of the natural laws and/or forces is
correct according to his equations, then a
single confirmation from a 'proper' institution
should be all you need to get the West interested.

The initial response will be swayed by psychological
prejudices inherent in a Western observer,
such as here, and how this conversation is proceeding.

This very unification of East and West is exactly
what brought me to IB in the first place. It has been a very educational vacation for myself and I
feel as if I know some of you quite well. From acquaintances to friends to family we shall progress.

When dealing with concerns regarding health, the Holistic
approach encompasses the Truth from every angle
and the idea is to meet in the middle, not to
remain steadfast in our relative positions proclaiming
"my point in space is better than your point of view."

We promote better health and growth for all things under the sun.

What's good for One is good for All
and it's All for One or it's none at all.

The benefit pertains to every one and the weak links
shall become equivalent to the strong.
The lowest common denominator is the highest equalizer.

The Truth is not lost...it's just hiding.

Follow the rules to the treasure.
You will find jewels beyond measure!

Somebody say GO!