Hi Mallika,

Part of me wants to denounce Christianity upon hearing this. I refocus and realize it is just the people who now sometimes represent authoritative voice in the religion and the lack of rigorous training that I want to denounce.

By the quote, it sounds like they've managed to persecute homosexuals instead of focusing upon a man betraying Christianity, instead of focusing upon a man seeking prostitutes, instead of focusing upon a man seeking illicit substance.

Nonetheless, it is the Christian belief and way to (1) repent and then (2) be forgiven. So it is not seen as shaming unless you freeze-frame a scene in the process.

The amazing thing about that is our legal system is diametrically opposed to repenting. You (1) need a mouthpiece and let them do all the talking and (2) have to pay big money if you admit to hurting people.

So the accidental goal can end up being to never get to the point where you put your hand on the Bible and swear to tell the whole truth in a Court of --- um --- I think they call it a Court of Law. (?)

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

I really like this,"It was the acting-out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing."

I guess that means that the only time Mr. Haggarts bisexuality is "immoral" is when he is "acting it out with his same sex partner," When he is "acting it out with his wife(opposite) sex partner then that is a "in the words of Martha Stewart" GOOD thing.

Heterosexual = good and moral

bisexual = bad and immoral with same sex but good,
very moral with opposite sex partner

homosexual = the baddest of the bad, immoral.

you ask,"Is healing about denial, shame, guilt?"

hmmmmmm, I think there are many religions that believe that there are a lot healing properties in denial, shame and guilt and usually if one tries them out and experiences the hurt they actually cause then one usually leaves that particualar religion to blissfully heal oneself through excommunication.

have a great day all, ruth

Dear Mallika,

It is an adult game of pretend based on be(lie)f.

What is disconcerting is that there are so many that buy into the whole thing, it wastes so much energy. But hey, if that the game they want to play, whose is to say?

Hi Mallika!

Haggard? Healed? Healarious!!!
He is a heel, not a healer.
His congregation delivers a poor imitation
as the bride of Christ, the church's relation.

A non-judgmental attitude is tough to maintain,
as we all know, but admonishment comes with the territory.

Going to church every Sunday, paying your tithes,
being sure to smile and shake a lot of hands...
these are all ways of attempting to buy your
ticket to Heaven, albeit a penny at a time.

Well, you reap what you sow and I'm afraid they'll
end up in the clouds wishing they could have brought
along a few more cents, just to payoff Peter.

Then they'll look real quick to see if they made
it on T.V. before they realize they're now inside it,
and it's not on.

Mallika, the link to the article does not work by the way.

How about healing is a personal matter between Haggard his family and therapists, can't we just leave this alone, the man is suffering, just do the decent thing and move on.

God already knows the truth, about everyone.
(personal opinion)

What the heck does that mean?? ~MC

To answer your question, nothing. It is empty speak, much like we see in commercials. It doesn't really mean anything but sounds like it does.

Don't we always become what we judge? Good reason to stop.

(A bit out of context)

I believe we will be one, you and me.
I believe, we are one.

Your words touched my hears
What the heck does that mean??
Whisper it again

Unconscious of you, baby
At night, I let my door open
I lay down, close my eyes

I know you are there sweety
Maybe, not for me
I do not have to spin my head
To bring us to existence

My love, please take my hand
I am a golden fool
Hold me in your arms
I need to feel you
"to be" love with you

Baby!

Your are a pleasure!

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

Ted Haggart is or (was) a prominent evangelical religious leader who thought nothing about bragging on camera to someone making a documentary about his religion how "sexual" evangelical men are, in his words(looking into the camera and getting the two young men standing beside him to support his statement although you could see they were quite uncomfortable with this spontaneous remark) that evangelical men had better sex lives than anyone else. This was tapped before the revelations about his apparent bisexuality troubles surfaced publicly.

So the man has taken a fall from the "grace" of his religious teachings and beliefs is not the problem, the problem is the fact that he and his fellow religious leaders shout ridiculous declarations for all the world to hear such as his being healed of his "bisexuality or homosexuality in three weeks," and that does makes him a prime target for public scrutiny, by his own doing. He puts himself out there with these very public declarations.

have a great day, ruth

Dear Mallika:

You ask "Is healing about denial, shame, guilt?"
If one follows the true teachings of Christ it would be about Love, compassion and non-judgemental forgiveness.

It seems to me though that this has been turned on its head into "sin-and-salvation" by unenlightened guilt-ridden religious demagogues such as Haggert himself by projecting their own guilt and shame onto others through their rigid, "moralistic" intolerant behavious.
Seldom if ever, do I hear "fundamentalists" teach Love, compassion and forgiveness.

There's lots more I would like to say on this subject, but off I must go.

Tapestry:
Repent for what? For being a homosexual? Do you understand the spiritual bankruptcy of the Church?

The issue is that Love of Jesus, did not know any distinctions... no hate is part of that equation! In fact the opposite of Love is not Hate.. in fact there is no such thing as opposite of Jesus' love!

So basically, there was nothing to repent. Repentance for any one.. a homosexual or heterosexual is nonsensical! Sex is sex.. an act. Nothing more.. nothing less.

cheers,
desh
drishtikone.com

Desh...so if your wife has sex with another man, it's just an act...nothing more, nothing less? Same as having a cup of coffe?

Not meant to be an inflammatory question, just curious as to how far you take the example..

If the above happens, does she owe you an apology? or in other words, does she need to 'repent' to you?

just wondering...

Also, the teachings of Jesus concerning love and forgiveness are often espoused here on this blog. But what about his teachings about, hell, judgement, eternal suffering...etc.? He was a fire and brimstone 'fundamentalist' preacher also. Does that not account for anything, or do you look at those things as metaphors? If you look at'em as metaphors, how do you know when the metaphor stops and reality begins....

norm

Maybe Bonnie, the reason why you don't
hear "fundamentalists" teach Love, compassion and forgiveness is because you don't attend their church services or for that matter spend time to speak with the "Fundamentalists". If I only read or watch documentaries about folks like Haggert I would feel the same way as you because it's slanted and frankly negative, but I take the time to listen and hear what they have to say and I simply don't share your view.

Steve

July 4, 1986
Jim was a master carpenter who built all the kid-size stuff at the local children's museum. Also he built gazebos in his backyard to care for lots of birds. We were celebrating the holiday over at Tom and Jim's house. That afternoon Jim felt tired and went in the bedroom to rest. There was a juice glass on the nightstand to take pills with. He had another gran mal siezure, smashed the glass while thrashing around and ripped the arteries out in his right arm. Manuel, who as a CO had been a marine corpsman in Vietnam, sprang into action with a towel. Tom went flying out of the house screaming. The next door neighbor, Louise, saw Tom running and knew something had happened with Jim again. She is the one who called for the ambulance. They came because the call was made from her phone. When they got there and found out who the patient really was, they refused to touch him and left the house. I held the towel in place while Manuel followed them outside. I could see thru the window. He spoke to them briefly and they gave him the guerney. We loaded Jim in the back and Manuel climbed in to hold the towel. I followed in his car.
Later we came back to check up on Tom and clean up the room because blood had been dripping from the ceiling. When we arrived the room was spotless. Louise had cleaned it up. She called to us from her kitchen window and we went over. She made us a cup of tea and we talked awhile. She asked if we wanted to take a shower. I looked at Manuel and we both realized we were covered head to toe with Jim's dried blood.
Louise was a fundamentalist. She believed especially in the part of the bible that says everybody has faults. It didn't matter to her that we were queers. This is really her story. I alone live to tell it.
When we have all finished beating each other up for our individual and collective faults, what happens next? And why can't we just skip all the BS and go there now?

Squid , thanks a great story and from my experience with Christians is one of kindness in thought and deed. That's it, leaders are always targets, no matter what profession they are in.

Regards,

STeve

Norm:

If my wife has sex with someone else - then in my worldview - that is her prerogative and choice. As disappointed as I will be, I dont believe it is, in any way, a reflection of her spiritual progress.

Now, for this guy... haggard.. the spokesman simply says he has become heterosexual.. and his homo-sexuality was an "accident". So, THIS particular incident has NOTHING to do with promiscuity! At the heart of it is the morality of the sexual partnership.. or even worse Love Partnership! That to me is nonsensical.

Now, about Jesus. Jesus to me is a CONCEPT. I do not care whether there was such a person who walked this earth or not.. and in any case most of what passes of as Bible was written decades or centuries after he was supposed to have passed away. So that is getting it nowhere. You or I could write a "Bible" on Jesus' teachings and that could be as correct!

When I talk of Jesus, I talk of a concept. The concept of a soul that "got it". He was, like many other Bhakti Yogis (Guru Nanak, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Meera etc), Love Personified.

It is in that perspective that I interpret Jesus. Bible, in my personal view, damages Jesus' "teachings" if anything!

cheers,
desh
drishtikone.com

Dear Norm:

I think, if you will look closely, that all that hell-fire and brimstone, judgement and damnation, comes from the Old Testament. The Old Testament was NOT what Jesus taught. It is, however, what most "fundamentalist" preach.

Now I am, by no means, a Biblical scholar, but if you will quote me, chapter and verse, in the NEW
Testament where Jesus taught hell fire and damnation, eternal suffering etc., I will send you the latest version, new on the market, of the bull flatulence barrel. It is called the Flatulence Facilitator v.2.0.....really 'kewl'
new technology.

Bonnie....there was certainly a ring of truth in your post...the part where you said you're not a Bible scholar! If you were, you would understand that Jesus is the bridge, bringing to fruition the prophecy's and the sighings of the old testament. He was the fulfillment of the covenant made to Moses....but I digress!! I really want that Flatulence Facilitator v 2.0!

Luke 10: 11-16
Luke 16: 15-31
Mark 9: 39-50
Matthew 22
Matthew 24 & 25
Matthew 13: 37-50

Bonnie, I'm not a Christian...most days I really don't know what I am. I'm not an atheist, not really an agnostic. I like to poke and prod Ron and Skep, our resident atheists, but that is mainly because of their 'smarter than everyone else condecension'. I actually read what they write and a lot of it makes sense to me. My point? I'm really not defending the Bible, or Jesus with this...but I am sort of defending Christians...

You, Mallika, and most of the left in this country don't have a 'hoot in hell' of an idea what you're talking about when you start talking 'fundie' bullcrap. No, Bonnie, Most funamentalists don't only preach the old testament. If I were a preacher, and wanted to 'peel hide', I can do it a lot more from the New Testament than from the old...

Just my take, Jesus was a hell raiser when he took a notion....

norm

ps...let me know and I'll give you my address... will that be coming parcel post or UPS! :-)

Norm:

Like I said, I admitted it, I am not a Biblical scholar....so I will have to dust off the old Bible and get back with you. I was "brought up"
in a fundamentalist church, however, and most of it just doesn't ring true to me, so I do know (somewhat) what I am talking about, Do You?

"worldly affairs" call so will be in touch later.

Dear Norm:

I only had time to read one of the references, you gave me, so will comment on only it.

I am not a Christian, perse, however, I do think that Jesus was an ascended master, and his sole mission on earth was to give enlightment, So too
in Luke 10 his mission was to enlighten through Peace( Peace here being in the spiritual sense of transcendence, self-realization, God-Consciousness) So, I will tell you sincerely what I think this chapter means.

He instructed his "seventy others" v5 "And into whatsoever house ye shall enter, first say Peace(capital P) be to this house. V6 And if a son of peace (small p) be there, your peace shall rest upon him: but if not it shall turn to you again." i.e. if this positive energy force is sent out and finds an "attractor" of like kind, it may rest (like attracts like etc.) However, if it does not find a positive attractor it returns to its source and remains positive.

Likewise, he instructed his "seventy others" to reject the negative energy attractors, V10 "But into whatsoever city ye shall enter, and they receive you not(positive energy meets negative).....and say, V11 "Even the dust from your city, that cleaveth to our feet, we do wipe off against you....Avoiding negative energy and sending it too back to its source which is negative.
V12 Apparently even Sodom had something positive going for it

V13 Now Jesus, being an ascended master, knew that the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida were wicked and satanic, thus extremely negative while Tyre and Sidon having received Jesus teachings(Positive energy) did have enough pureness of spirit to realize their wickedness(negative energy) and bounce themselves up a notch on the transendence ladder by repenting, admitting they had a problem(The first step in the 12 step program to freedom from addiction) Isn't being attracted to negative energy like shame, guilt, apathy, grief, fear, anger, and pride a form of addiction?
V14 Since Tyre and Sidon were further up the transendence ladder they would "in the judgement" final-analysis fare better (they completed step1)

V15 Now Capernum must have been the "super-nova" of negativety and having that magnetism of negativity turn back onto itself would surely turn it into a black hole. Now wouldn't that be Hell?

V16 Jesus had given his "seventy others" power to speak and act in his name and those who rejected his appeal to enlightenment were basically unwilling to connect in consciousness to the Oneness, The All That Is, which is called God. Jesus knew this. BTW, science has now demonstrated the interconnectedness of the Universe.(continues in next post)

Now, Norm, I can see how one could take V-11-16 by themselves and preach hell fire and damnation, but you key into negative attractors like shame, guilt and fear. And, yes you bet, many preachers do this, knowing full well what they are doing. And therin lies the fallacy, the "real lesson" of courage, neutrality, willingness, acceptance, reason, love, joy and Peace (all positive attractors) is lost by emphasing the negative, and thus causes to remain stuck there.

Honestly, to me, Jesus was not preaching hell fire and damnation is was simply:

Give up the weak attractors for strong attractors.

It's all about the energy "chile".

Your choice--Positive or Negative.

Do me a favor, just reflect on this a little, before you try to blast me to the super-nova. Energy operates in a loop you know.

Kindest regards,

Bonnie

Now, Norm, I can see how one could take V-11-16 by themselves and preach hell fire and damnation, but you key into negative attractors like shame, guilt and fear. And, yes you bet, many preachers do this, knowing full well what they are doing. And therin lies the fallacy, the "real lesson" of courage, neutrality, willingness, acceptance, reason, love, joy and Peace (all positive attractors) is lost by emphasing the negative, and thus causes on to remain stuck there.

Honestly, to me, Jesus was not preaching hell fire and damnation is was simply:

Give up the weak attractors for strong attractors.

It's all about the energy "chile".

Your choice--Positive or Negative.

Do me a favor, just reflect on this a little, before you try to blast me to the super-nova. Energy operates in a loop you know.

Kindest regards,

Bonnie

Hi Bonnie...you're a sweetheart!

I kinda regretted what I wrote to you yesterday, not the content, but the tone....I sounded about as know it all as some of the 'sophisticated' ones on here!

I'm not that far out of agreement with you on what you wrote back about the words of Jesus and their meaning. Having said that, I was reacting yesterday, to the attitude exhibited toward Christians.

I don't believe that the majority of them, take selective texts, and twist them and turn them to gain control over people....it just isn't that way. I'm not defending their position, so much as defending their motive.

There isn't a finer human being alive than my Dad, he takes the Bible completely as it is written, the authoritative word of God. He believes every word as it is written...he's also one heck of a Sunday School teacher! Remember the good Samaritan story?? My dad lives it...

I guess that's why I react to the 'bigotry' , and that's what it is, that is expressed here against Christians.

Hope you're having a great day....

norm

"But what about his teachings about, hell, judgement, eternal suffering...etc.? He was a fire and brimstone 'fundamentalist' preacher also. "

Norm..
I am gonna defend Jesus here a little bit :) [ I am not christian though, i dunno why ppl think that... i grew up in a more hindu to athiest environment]
But yea, I don't think Jesus taught any of that stuff... I think those things were added in the Bible later on (Don't you think thats a possibility?). One of the kings (forgot which one) is said to have removed the chapter on reincarnation in the bible. There are different books I read which also give evidence for Jesus getting enlightened in India (that he somehow went to India for a few years and then came back to preach), if he did goto India, he obviously can't talk about judgement/hell etc. coz those were not the concepts in India at the time at all.
I think a lot of things in the Bible, esp. when Jesus said "Lord forgive them, coz they don't know what they're doing" can only come from a pretty advanced soul [but thats my opinion].
In autobiography of a yogi, the author paints a pretty positive picture of Jesus, giving some convincing arguments... I think I am convinced.

There is a huge possibility of a lot of misinterpretations during translations and extra added stuff and changes when the books are 2000 years old.

Hello There,

I believe healing is about love, trust, and forgiveness

Heather