Existence does not really exist, Eternity, ever the nihilist, IS (uh-o) just having a momentary lapse of faith in itself. Being that Eternity IS having a passing lapse into illusory Existence; wherefore comes this materially existent being? Why cannot my body pass through that bank vault? Why do not bullets pass harmlessly through me without physically harming me? Why does my mind even contemplate being, IS, and nothingness, or, the nothingness OF being?

Tis all very strange this illusion of being. The illusion that love is real (whew, I am glad we all got over that one). Morals too are illusory (moral intuition bah, fool’s gold). The illusion of ‘the Oneness of our Supra-universal consciousness.’ The unfounded notion that humankind is collectively progressing in any sort of conscious or moral fashion, when the facts on the ground prove quite differently.

Damn, I should have been born a banker’s son! A madman such as I should have been gifted a higher social rank so I could be labeled eccentric rather than deserving poor. Eternity pulled a fast one on me, thank G-d tis all simply illusory!

Thank G-d there are some blessed with the personal revelation of G-d’s existence. I too erred on this once, a few years ago in a Calvinistic college reading St. Augustine, thought I had a metaphysical union with G-d that brought great peace to my soul, even sobered me up (thank
G-d I found my way back to the bottle, damn illusory aching liver) -- lies and illusions lies and illusions!

The timelessness of G-d. The Kalām cosmological argument is a valid syllogism though . . .

And I never even perfectly wrote the Torah in Hebrew! Wretched creature am I!

I tried to be the change I wanted to see in the world, but, ‘the man,’ wanting more money, took my home. Game over. Now where is that damn reset button . . .

Peace

Dear DK

Beyond issues of HQR, what you write:

"...unless we begin to think of others before ourselves -- ask ourselves what we truly need and not what we desire to have..."

is the primary challenge of all people right now.

love, Heath

Cool Mandala - who drew that one? Is it copyrighted?

Dear DK,

It is my honest conviction that it is the female aspect that has to be restored and respected all over the world. Otherwise solutions on any problem will not sink in. Gaia is not in balance at the moment.

Slowly but surely we are already on our way towards it though, but the awareness is still not yet fully there :)

Today i read that the Pope has written a book from his own personal perspective, so not from the vision of the Catholic Church, titled "Jesus of Nazareth". In it he for instance admits that christianization from the West in Africa only has lead to the exploiting of the country. His book will be available tomorrow in Germany, Italy and Poland but will be translated into twenty more languages.

Love, Mieke

YOgi-one: Cool Mandala - who drew that one? Is it copyrighted?

HQR and its new avatar HQR* have been blatantly using images like that of E8 Visualization, without proper credits to their creators.

They allot an entire thread or two for the description of the image but fail to provide the simple credits with the image when they depict it brazenly in all it's threads.

Even in this thread you see the painting "Gaia -- The Mother Earth" doesn't carry any credits. There is no explanation either.

Although, these images may be in the public domain, and many not be copy-righted, it is the simple courtesies that are found wanting.

Meike: Today i read that the Pope has written a book from his own personal perspective, so not from the vision of the Catholic Church, titled "Jesus of Nazareth".

Apparently The Pope also wrote a new book, "Creation and Evolution," which was published on April 11 in German.

Ref. Post #127 Open Thread

Janet Says: As opposed to bible creation fairy tales which have ZERO proof...not one iota besides the mythic stories in a 3,000 year old piece of literature....

Pope: Evolution Cannot Be Proven
Thursday, Apr. 12, 2007 By AP/MELISSA EDDY

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1609537,00.html

The Devil Wears Prada

I wonder what Gandi would say. Simple life, Simple clothes. I wonder how much The Pope is spending on his lifestyle. I wonder if the Global Economy doesn't mind such extravaganza.

Fashion: The Pope Wears Prada

Newsweek

"He may never make the best-dressed lists, but Pope Benedict XVI is nothing short of a religious-fashion icon, riding in the Popemobile with red Prada loafers under his cassock and Gucci shades. But his penchant for designer wear and a move to ditch the papal tailors who have dressed popes for more than 200 years are causing new wrinkles in the Vatican."

Wisdom-based global culture/economy..

Interesting what we are aspiring for here my book tells what we will arrive at in terms of evolution through four basic forces or interactions.

Here is a couple of relevant paragraph:

[Quote]With the science of Prigogine and his collaborators, of David Bohm and other ‘philosophers of science’ I mentioned in a previous chapter, with the intuitions of Fritzof Capra and the like, we as a global culture are moving beyond even the range of these strong interactions. Thenceforth, we will be entering the realm of the weak interactions, where instead of alienation, suffocation we would be experiencing wholeness, freedom, spontaneity. Where the science, the philosophy of ‘to be’ would direct our actions rather than, as of now, the science, the philosophy of ‘to know.’ Our culture then will not be the scientific culture in the real sense of the word, would not be the intellectual culture so to say, but would be the culture of intelligence. Which has known, seen life inside-out and now enjoys it within its limits - and would even be ready to pass out when the time comes which is inevitable a la the coming of the Dark Periods after the Golden Period of the Greeks some two thousands years before.[Unquote]

[Quote]
At the species level, these (weak)interactions may someday give us the species of superman. Lower down, within the species man, these will give us perhaps to what historians some day would call the Free man. At our global cultural level these are going to give us our Age of Intelligence, of Intuition, of Freedom (in a way we are already into it). It may also be known variously as the Golden Age, the Age of Wisdom, the Satya Yuga. At our personal levels these interactions, I am sorry to say, give us what we know as our cancer cells. (Having freed themselves from almost all the forces, these cancer cells do not obey the command of the genetic code of a system which veritably is the command of the forces at the base. Since after due time a system begins the next spiral, though qualitatively higher, and restarts its journey through the forces, it can explain what in scientific circles has been called the phenomenon of the Spontaneous Cancer Remission - SCR. Cells in such a scenario, after having once freed themselves from even the weak forces or interactions, again begin to obey the directions of gravity, and that would mean the directions of the genetic code.) [Unquote]

Harb

And those quotes represent exactly what Harb? The optimism is nice.

But, the people dying know better, the caterpillar has yet to even enter the cocoon . . .

Peace

Fritzof Capra experienced the interrelated dancing particles and at once understood what mystics of various ages and traditions have been trying to tell the world all along, that all is interrelated and originates from One.

He tried to present this understanding in his book The Tao of Physic.

I experienced the One first(see below...My first experience of Oneness), and then that It displays itself through four basic forces or interactions at myriad hierarchical levels (see Preface)and at once understood what the physicists in the present times have been trying to arrive at all along through the unification of all those four basic forces - to wit, to this very One. No wonder I understood that their theory of everything will now comprise of just the opposite - that of separating away of that One or One Unified Force into four basic forces at myriad hierarchical levels. (In scientific language, it will also be described as any system's going through four basic interactions at myriad hierarchical levels.]

I saw this as the basic, design/deterministic part of the 'evolution' of the universe (which causes mutations on which then Darwinian evolution acts in terms of variations, selections, survival etc.) and have tried to present this in my book Self-Designed Universe.

Harb

Here is my first experience of Oneness if anybody is further interested.

My First Experience of Oneness

By the age of 25 I had completed my degree in Civil Engineering, joined govt. service, got married and fathered two sons. For the next about three years, while my friends and colleagues were busy building up their careers I found myself lost in what one may say are the eternal questions of mankind: Who am I? Where have I come from? Where am I supposed to go after my so-called death? Has my being, my "I" some permanent point of reference or is it merely a chance bubble floating meaninglessly in the wilderness of space? What is space? Where this world ends? What is beyond that? What is God? What is good and bad? What is the best way to live this unimaginably short life? Could it be that all this (alluding mentally to the world around) never have been? Were there then to be no.. nothing …forever….f o r e v e r….. N E V E R…?

Then one day while I was sitting all alone in my brother's rented flat in a big city, suspended from my govt. service, separated from my wife and two children, diseased of unattended body and dejected of unanchored mind, something entirely unexpected happened. Something like lightening but unaccompanied by usual light and thunder seemed to flux out of my head upwards, encompassing simultaneously somehow the whole of the universe into its fold…

Actually it is not easy to describe such an experience…For, initially it so overwhelms your being that you lose all your sense of separateness, of individuality. And at long last when you regain some semblance of your sense of separateness, of individuality then something like what the scientists call Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - simply put which states that at deeper levels you can know one aspect of reality only at the cost of the other - inhibits its truest recollection much more description: in clothing it with words you tend to lose its essential stuff, its essential beauty, in trying to capture its essential stuff, its essential beauty you increasingly get lost to the world of words…

It was not something which had happened to me as say an ordinary incident or even accident would happen to me: a happening, happening to me as something separate from ‘me,’ so that I could simultaneously act as an observer and a participator, so that I could 'note it down' as it happened. It had somehow involved me totally: it had somehow involved even that part of me which was supposed to 'note it down,' was supposed to act as the base on which the mechanism of my memory was to function.

Anyway, what a way of finding the answers! Off go rather the questions themselves. Off goes rather the wall itself between ‘me’ and the rest of Nature which had actually been the cause of all those questions. The questioner, the questioning and the things questioned had somehow got dissolved into one single whole, into one single woolly unity!

Consequently, I got myself reinstated into my service, brought my family to live with me at my new place of posting and, in general, let my life adrift.

And again, what a life it was! Eight years of almost total abandon! Everything seeming to happen as if on its own, while ‘I’ seemed to be standing still, a mere spectator to events! My family, social and service lives sub-serving one way or the other the unstoppable flow of only this almost wordless life! Perhaps it was what Nietzsche meant from his life beyond good and evil…

=======

Here is Preface [To the book Self-Designed Universe]

A sudden turn in my life around middle years first forced me to leave my government job of a civil engineer. Then equally unexpectedly it brought me into contact with the latest in physics - especially with the fact that the scientists have reduced all the forces working in the Universe to four basic ones - thanks to Fritzof Capra’s The Tao of Physics. And lastly, almost simultaneously, it forced me on a long introspective journey – apparently to find my raison d’être in coming into this world - which finally allowed me to have an experience of the basic Oneness of All There Is. Then one day as I sat ‘lost’ in the experience, suddenly I became aware of almost a wordless dialogue going on inside me:

"Mystics, philosophers have always spoken of freedom, liberation, nirvana, ultimately for whom and from whom?"
"For this Oneness and from those four forces…"

This was followed in quick succession by the Universal panorama of evolution unfold before my mind’s eyes. I ‘saw’ that the origin and subsequent evolution of species plants, animals, man and so on keeping only our Earth in focus, and of all and every thing up from the Universe as a whole down to the least space-time entity otherwise, is neither the result of some blind chance nor of Darwinian natural selection etc but of the Oneness’ attempts at freedom, liberation, nirvana, or in a word, at disentanglement, from those four basic forces at myriad of hierarchical system levels.

The book in hand presents my attempt to explain the above basic idea further.

It may, however, be added here in passing that in my scheme of things the Oneness of the above dialogue represents the same ‘Super-something’ to which religious people call Soul, Spirit or even God, scientists call Supersymmetry, Superspace or even Superforce and the philosophers call Substance or even Supersystem. So to facilitate a collective description throughout this book, I have coined for that the common name of M.O.S.C or simply Mosc , which will thus stand for Matter of spiritual category or simply for Spirit for the religious people or spiritualists, Matter of supersymmetric category or simply for Supersymmetry for the scientists, and Matter of supersystemic category or simply for Supersystem for the philosophers.

And in the light of the above the import of the above dialogue would also mean that, the origin and subsequent evolution of the Universe down to the least space-time entity is the result: on the part of the Soul or Spirit or even God to seek freedom, liberation, nirvana from four basic forces for the spiritualists; on the part of Supersymmetry to seek to unwind itself from the same forces for the scientists; and, on the part of the Supersystem to seek to display itself through the above forces for the philosophers, at myriad of hierarchical system levels.

Thank you for reading...Harb

Sorry empyrius, I did not read your post #9 before posting my #10. I will answer it now.

All these quotes represent that from the basic level the 'evolution' (change over time and not Darwinian evolution)is being pushed in terms of four basic forces or interactions at all levels and here at the level of our global culture as a whole.

Since basically it is deterministic it is beyond our optimism or pessimism. Like our childhood, youth, middle age and old age it will give us what it will give us. On which then we will make our choices etc in terms of Darwinian theories for survival etc as far as possible. Though again that will remain only up to the time for the next paradigm shift or quantum jump when a new phase based on next basic interaction will start shattering much of everything of old and on which we will have to make our choices again.

Dying at any level is a prerequisite for taking birth at a new one. Some die physically some mentally, but death is inevitable. Even entire cultures die likewise when they go sort of into hibernation. It happened to the BC era culture during what we call as Dark Periods, that is, before the birth of our present AD era culture or cultural cycle.

As presently we are crossing over from strong interactions period - the period of science, rationality, intellect - to the weak interactions period - the period of intelligence, of inution/wisdom - even now we my undergo some global level catastrophic happening in the process. Transition may not be smooth as some of us are trying here. Mind sets do not change in this way. We may experience at global cultural level something akin to our own mid-life crisis, in which we really die for a moment/while to usher into the old age.

Harb

Ref. Post #3 & #5

Please note that the picture you have used in HQR is same as the picrure at "American Institute of Mathematics" website: http://aimath.org/

"The Atlas project is funded by the National Science Foundation through the American Institute of Mathematics."

"In the 1960s, Peter McMullen drew (by hand) a 2-dimensional representation of the Gosset polytope 421. The image shown below was computer-generated by John Stembridge, based on McMullen's drawing."

The picture that is being used in HQR without credits is EXACTLY THE SAME (looks so) one that was computer generated by John Stembridge of Univ. of Michigan who is also a core memebr of the 20 memeber international team which mapped E8.

Ref. Post 10

"My First Experience of Oneness"

I read this story before, at Intentblog.

AJ

dum dum dol dol baje dol

AJ, you are not the only one here...

Moreover, into some thick heads understanding has to be drummed into.

I assure you that you and your ilk cannot keep their heads in the sand for long. Yes, science is important but not at the cost of spirituality. Sooner than later it will have to give away. If unhindered spirituality will be dangerous so is unhindered science now...

I see you Harb, thanks.

Peace

Opps.... I should have read DK's post above before my recent two replies. We seem to be on the same page ;-)

Love, Char

Dear Harb

Please consider posting your story in each and every relevant HQR thread and each and every other thread which talks about the essence of spirituality, henceforth on IB. Obviously, we cannot rule out the possibility of a newbie missing out on your experience of Oneness.

"I assure you that you and your ilk cannot keep their heads in the sand for long. Yes, science is important but not at the cost of spirituality. Sooner than later it will have to give away. If unhindered spirituality will be dangerous so is unhindered science now..."

Good Luck. You do need a few more of those self-realization episodes before you realize the true essence of Spirituality. (You might want to leave Science alone in this life to wonder about it in 'your' after-life, though.)

Dear Harb,

In #10, My 1st experience of Oneness:

I really enjoyed reading about your experience and this is the first time I have read it, as I tend to scan a lot, so I miss a lot ... sort of, as I find we really are all communicating, even if we do not post or see a post, i.e., like you know what everyone is thinking and posting. Well most of the time, but not all the time. So it saves on reading time and one can just comment and will usually find that they are also replying to an entirely different post that they have not even read yet, or someone answered it for them, exactly like they would have commented, which I am sure we have all done. There are surely some brilliant minds here, as well as big hearts. I know, I should proof my posts ...

Love, Char

Dear DK

Re. Post 14

Please note that my issue is with the E8 Image used only.

1.http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/03/hqr_e8_mathemat.html

In this thread, under E8 Visualization, you admit:

"The image shown below was computer-generated by John Stembridge, based on McMullen's drawing."

The "IMAGE SHOWN BELOW" YES! is THE IMAGE you are using in all your HQR threads, which are many.

While in other thread in the same context you contradict yourself:

"There are a number of E8 visualisations and attempts thereof. It would be better to speak with Messrs Stembrigdge and McMullen before going around putting their names on this exact visualisation. "

There is no confusion here. There are many visualizations, agreed! But, the one you use is by Stembrigdge and McMullen on your own admittance. May I humbly request you to re-visit your own threads that you have suggested to me, to enlighten yourself?

It is a courtesy to give the simple attributes wherever an image is used.

A newbie will be left wondering with many unanswered questions:

1) Is it copyrighted?
2) Is the visualization designed by DK Matai?
3) Is it done under HQR* Project?

..etc

This can be avoided if the name of artist and the scientist were mentioned in the footnote of the picture.

A newbie doesn't have to go to the depths of the HQR Dialogue to figure out the attributes for the E8 Visualization. If on the other hand you are only interested in limiting your dialogue to the accumulated few, it is my pleasure to be your guest.

Thanks

AJ, #11. My spirituality is like the strong physique of a wrestler who firmly standing on his legs will not harm anybody except the one who on his own will bump into him.

Moreover, I will not grant that you know the "true essence of spirituality."

Harb

Did I misunderstand the topic of this post?
I thought it was Wisdom Based Global Economy Dialogue.

Unlike some of the other topics I actually could add some good ideas on this subject but will not---- alas I feel it would just get lost.

Love

Bonnie

"I will not grant that you know the "true essence of spirituality."

Spiritual wrestler Harb, remember what Buddha said(or, not said) about his self-knowledge. No bout can decide if your knowledge of "true essence of spirituality" is any better than mine. But, it certainly can be argued why you lack an understanding of Science, Reason and Rationality.

"Unlike some of the other topics I actually could add some good ideas on this subject but will not---- alas I feel it would just get lost."

If you have something to say, say it. Why put pressure on the valve? Nothing gets lost. Matter is neither created nor destructed.

In reason and logic there are what we call compelling arguments. That is, if one locates certain kinds of evidence, even people who disagreed to begin with, once they study the evidence, find themselves compelled to agree by the evidence.

But wherever we go beyond reason into faith, there's no such thing as compelling evidence. Even if you have a revelation or an oneness experience, how can you transfer that to others?

By what system?

OK AJ, I will

E=MC(sq)

In this context, C= Constant negativity from certain commenters.
E then = Massive negative energy

I, personally do not wish to be attracted to massive negative energy. It appears to me to be a very weak attractor.

If this defies logic and reason, then so be it.

Comprende? I do indeed trust this will not be lost.

How can your comments be lost, you are increasing the Energy E, by raising the values of the parameters in the Mock Einstein Equation.

M = Critical Mass of New Spiritual Humanity

C = Seed of Scientific Ignorance

E = M*C*C = Energy of Holistic Quantum Relativity Dialogue.

Dear Harb,
If your brand of spirituality is like the strong physique of a wrestler what does that make my brand of spirituality resemble (laughs)?
Todd

"Level Seven" of the spiritual ladder is a label for a pretentious brand of spirituality.

A post about the “truth” is being held by the administration for approval. Is there a message in that?

Dear AJ,
I'm not afraid to say that your nature is venemous, angry, invasive! I suggest you focus on the positive things in your life. I'm sure you can find them if you try. Perhaps love will blossom in your life.

I see a lot of negative energy from spiritual people. I wonder what effect it has on the Global Health, considering the Gaia Hypothesis.

Skeptisch asks..A post about the “truth” is being held by the administration for approval. Is there a message in that?

How about this:

Intentblog website is as truthful as it's Spam Filter.

AJ#23
"But, it certainly can be argued why you lack an understanding of Science, Reason and Rationality."

Been there, done it, remained unsatisfied...was lucky to ultimately have the direct experience of what science is after, i.e., Grandunification, only an other name for Oneness.

Imagine that you want to know the orgasmic experience of sex through science (Actually I want to give the experience of love-at-first-sight but that is too subtle for most). How far will you be able to go? To the last minute, second, fraction of a second, fraction of fractions....??? Won't you will ultimately feel like leaving it? Oh to hell with it! There are so many new openings, so may new pathways, so many new labyrinths, so many new factors coming into the picture, even your own whole being is being squeezed into knowing it yet it seems to remain as far away as at the beginning. All you will be left with at the most will be a mountain of dry calculations...

Now imagine you actually have that experience. Will you feel like touching those calculations/science after it again? You may say a few cursory words here and there in terms of the science that it is like this it is like that but saying at the same time that actual experience cannot be really described.

Actually, more we evolve, more we go deeper into ourselves as well as into things. And thanks to four basic forces, up to a certain depth we have experience of love at first sight with opposite sex and beyond that, again up to certain other 'deeper' depth, we have the same experience with Nature as a whole a la Spinoza rather than with opposite sex. And imagine if you can if even the experience of love at first sight with opposite sex can be described through words not to talk through science.

Moreover, AJ, even science says that everything depends upon our observation/perception of it. We also know that observation/perception and what is being observed/perceived goes on changing as we evolve. Actually they both are in creative, corresponding dialogue as I have written it in my book. From this it is logical to assume that some day when we have gone deeper enough or have advanced enough on evolutionary ladder both the observer and the observed will come into perfect correspondence. Then imagine what we will observe except all-inclusive sameness or oneness.

Harb

Dear Todd #28

Actually you/your strong physique was in my mind while I was writing the answer lol. My physical body is not as strong as yours. May be the spiritual body is. I am sure no one can push me out of my center of weak forces/spirituality, just as nobody can push a strong man out from his center of gravity.

I enjoyed a life beyond words for about eight years after my experience but then "kitab likhan da panga le liya" (got into the sucking experience of writing a book lol).

Harb

2.

Where beautiful and ugly
Do not stand in opposition
Where life and death or yes and no
Do not make a contradiction

Can you see the vacant place
Where good and bad and sad and merry
Disappear forevermore?
Where nothing ever is contrary
So stay within the emptiness
Unless you rise you never fall

Accepting that which comes your way
You are forever all in all
Good and bad, happy and sad, beautiful and ugly, all opposites and all
contraries, all are appearances or conditions in awareness, in me.

They all
exist in my vacant center. I accept all conditions. I have no choice. I am made
for acceptance. I am made open. I am all in all. I am all awareness that
contains all objects, all events, all that is given, all that is presented by
awareness.

Staying with awareness, emptiness, I am safe, no matter what is happening in
the world. I do not overlook this, the source and container of all, this my
true identity.

[Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu
Rhyme and Reason by Jim Clatfelter]

Tao Te Ching

7. Heaven endures, earth lasts forever.
How are they able to do so?
They do not live for themselves so they live on.
Thus the sage stays at the back
Yet finds himself at the front.
Unconcerned about himself, he survives.
Unconcerned about his goals, does he not attain them?

8. The highest good is like water.
Water benefits the myriad things and does not contend.
It flows to the low places that people disdain.
Therefore it becomes like Tao.

The value of a house is in its location.
The value of a mind - in the clarity of thought.
The value of companionship - in kindness.
The value of words - in truthfulness.
The value of governing - in justice.
The value of a doing a job - in effectiveness.
The value of taking an action - in timeliness.

If there's no contention, there is no blame.

http://www.geocities.com/taoteching_klingon/text.htm

The whole of Tao Te Ching can be summed up in the following two lines:

All is One, that is, where all contradictions stand resolved.

All (everything) happens on its own accord.

****
If Lao Tze had by then known four basic forces then he would have added to the second line the words: "easily recognisable in terms of four basic forces."

Harb

Empryius, Char4, thank you!

"If Lao Tze had by then known four basic forces then he would have added to the second line the words: "easily recognisable in terms of four basic forces."

I disagree with that asumption.

No matter, I am satisfied if you have at lest agreed with the rest lol. You are welcome to the realm beyond science....

There is an endless struggle on behalf of reason - and those who are switched on reason - to defy Life and those more mystically inclined to "prove" them ...

How can one write about music?

Listen to the music. And if after that you want to write about what you listened and heard, it will be only reminding those who already heard the musice, but won't be able to evoke anything in those who can read the words alone.

Love and peace to each single of you
... and a bit of humour too :o)
Isabelle

A person who appreciates science and is guided by reason, doesn't close his mind, to not appreciate, aesthetic and philosophical pursuits.

Is this how my words come accross to you? May I then elaborate?

I am not talking of someone who merely "appreciates science". I appreciate science too, and very much so. I am talking of someone who approaches life through reason alone and who wants it to be the measure for everything.

There is a difference between listening and experiencing music, and reading notes, analyzing them, talking about them, etc.

I have been defied by someone to "explain me the music in measurements, calibers, weight, words and prove it" to him - in other words to try to perceive something with the inappropriate organ of perception. I told him that he better experiences it, because no word could convey it. He insisted. He will continue to want to get the explanation about "the music" until he surrenders to his heart in trust and listens and experiences it.

Do I need to mention that surrendering to one's heart does not mean to deny reason, but just putting it in its right context?

Just to say that I have enjoyed catching up on this dialog and especially have enjoyed Crystal's and Jeff's recent posts. Thanks!

One really cannot explain the music, if another has not heard it. I too have thought of this many times. But we all do hear some type of music. And, just maybe the music is a little different to each person, depending on what they are hearing with. Just some thoughts.

Love, Char

Crystal, please refer to Post 40 & 41. 43 is a response to 41.

I haven't read your 42 then.

Your example of Music can be extended to Painting or any other fields of art. What you can express in words is your interpretation or an analysis of the art work. Any rationalist wouldn't claim that the art work and the description of the work are equivalent. The brain processes visual perception and auditory perception of sounds, words, colors, forms etc in unique ways.

Sorry Jeff, I thought it was meant for me.

I am taking part to another forum not based on spirtuality. I manage it to stay within limits on this forum, even though I have my own way and language. If some appreciate me, some others regularly try to push me to my limits and want me to prove them what I decently call "extended reality" (as I explained that most humans are not even able to understand what happens beyond the immediate consequence to an action, and yet they continue to develop in the direction of power, that humans are generating a violence which long term effects many do not manage to link to their origin, that we now even manage it to affect life in its genetic foundations, before to be either interested or able to understand the sense of life, the way energies work, how attitudes play an even more essential role than action, etc. Well he and his buddy did not like that at all at all :o).

Even if there are some calculations of physics to prove their reality, how could I subject it to their intellect? At a certain point, we need to stop counting on someone to pre-digest for us, to let reason be less a despot, to start trusting other ways of getting in touch with life, and explore and make the experience ourselves. I may be wrong, but I noticed that reason is that despotic, that it searches to destroy anything that is not of its reach.

On that day I was being challenged relentlessly by a friend who wanted me to subject to his reason something that is not of the domain of reason. As there are things I can say here, but couldn't say there, I couldn't support my point of view well enough. And ended up humbled. It is an experience for me too, though.

I am used to this, and I continue to take part to the forum in question, in my usual way.

I used the word music to explain a realm of experience and perception involving our Source or Heart or Self or God or however each of us calls It :o)