This may raise 1st Am Freedom of Speech questions too.

His creative writing professor went to the University to report his "disturbing writings" written in his creative writing class. The University officials said that the university could take no action against him due to his writings because taking action due to his writings would violate his 1st Am Freedom of Speech rights because the University believed his writings showed no signs of an imminent threat. . . Is this what our 1st Am Freedom of Speech Constitutional Rights are meant to protect???

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

Yesterday, I was just shocked and numb. Today, I cannot stop the tears that come unexpectedly when I tune into some of this coverage and nothing is more heartbreaking than what is coming out about the shooter, Cho. He was only 23 years old, and when you see his face he just looks so young.. so young. After, hearing about some of his writings you wonder what has happened to him in his life, did he experience torment from the hands of others or did he have a mental illness that was undiagnosed? There were teachers who were concerned but it seems as though it was too little too late. A warning sign here, a warning sign there..he slipped through the crack. I feel such deep saddness for him. I know he shot and killed over 30 men and women, ended their lives, changed their families lives forever, but, for some reason, it is Cho, that I cannot stop crying for. To be so young, to be so alone, and to be so disturbed.. it is almost to much to bear.

ruth

sh1t happens

that's all there really is to it

Aloha Mallika

Your Dad in Peace is the Way shares about the 1971 experiment that Stanford University. They set up a fake prison where students were the guards and prisoners.
The treatment of the prisoners by the guards was so intolerable they had to close in two weeks.

When the Iraq prisoners at Abu Ghraib were tortured by US personal the psychologist who conducted the Stanford prison experiment was asked his opinion. He said, “It’s not that we put bad apples in a good barrel. We put good apples in a bad barrel. The barrel corrupts anything that it touches.”

Your Dad says, “ Consciousness is undoubtedly malleable. It can be made to conform to unreality, untruth, and to every variety of inhumane conditions.”

Look at President Bush, in the guise of protecting the US, invading Iraq, how many people have lost their lives? No mass destruction weapons were found.

One life lost is too many. Here is the site about the Stanford Prison Experiment: http://www.prisonexp.org/

Love patty

Dear Mallika

If Cho Seung Hui was so disturbed that in hindsight it's noticeable in his writing, and in others' memories of his behavior, those signals were there before he began to kill.

We ignore such signals in so many cases. We need to change that, and become aware of the possibility of evil in ourselves and others, so we learn to fight it with actions, not more weapons, and with compassionate inclusion, not isolation and posthumous labeling.

Our need to isolate and label those who do things such as these is a reflection of our doubts about our own goodness. By labeling those at the ends of a curve, we keep them away from ourselves. But if this young man had been included in society more completely, it's doubtful his anger would have risen to such a level.

Korean culture is one of those in which societal and familial inclusion is highly valued, much more so than in generic US culture. To be isolated and away from his family, living in the midst of a culture already accepting of isolation, and trying to make his way through college, with its cliques and competitiveness, must have made him feel like a poisoned stone, a person with little to lose.

Our proceeding to live our lives as if others' lives don't matter virtually ensures that this kind of violence will happen again. A village circle needs to form around each human being, so everyone feels loved and a part of life.

As those who were killed by this young man were strongly loved and will be missed and mourned, this young man should have been strongly loved, too. Then no missing or mourning might have come to pass, for others, or for him.

love, Heath

Malika if you want to be shocked...

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weaponstab.htm

2004 there were 8,299 gun homicides in the USA!

that's almost 23 A DAY. and that's only guns.

In the greater scheme of things that virginia tech rampage really wasn't that big a deal

Now that's shocking

American laws, are barbaric!, and hypocrite at the same time, nice intent, though while written..

In East Europe, different world..

1. You don't need a drivers license to buy a gun,
just a phone call, and it's almost for free,

2. There are no such things as 'loners', just poverty of the mind.

3. Aliens? live in different realms, that would take a spaceship..

4. Guns? a kalisnikov, is cheap, you can buy it on every east-earopean, market, and with a buket of bullets, for the price of, a, 100 us dollars up to 300,

5. Why did that Korean moron do it? he saw to many movies and played to many videogames.

6. Why didn't anyone prevent this, his innerdialogue? that's the question, dear Watson,

7. His family is to blame, such a same,

love, passion,
marek
Ps. but maybe it was the american society..idiots!

My question would be, besides, the obvious, why did CNN report, that it was not known wheter or not the shooter commited suicide or was shot by the swat guys..

why didn't he had a girlfriend?

play with IKEA, Lego, you freaks! morons..

what were the statistics..? 80-90% retarded,
20-10% brilliant.. your american national product..

whatever, gotta mail a turkish princess, law of karma, ltz, marek

So, that felt better, weird chick, she's 27, i'm 29, she looks up at his, how does she calls it, translated in english.. i'm to lazy,sue me..
women.. the fact was he was 37.. go do the math..

anyhow, what was the subject of the thread?
yeah, that..

Why didn't he had nothing to loose?
that's the question, sir Watson,

go, figure that one out,
in the meanwhile, the ny marathon, in november,
and a training schedule, beyond.. that's was my polish focus on, tonight,ltz, marek

Mallika, one thing is for sure; our children out there, are trying to tell us something.... they are hurting, they are poor, they are abused, they are lost, they are scared, they are alone.... then; all that turns into frustration, anger, hostility.... are we so surprised really?

Generations of children have been born, since the great 60's women's movement; where children were suddenly thrust into the care of deranged grandmothers with illness's and aged, crazy aunties, uncle perverts, abusive cousins...

Then, in the 70's they built childcare and daycare...where now, strangers raise your children.

In schools, teachers are junkies and alchoholics; hiding their secrets of immoral conduct; taking their moods out on children... just like Cho.

In church's, priests and the like; tell us, this is happening to us, because we "were bad" and punishment onto the circle of abuse, to a spiritual level.

In community, there are haves and havenots. The haves, expect the havenots to "get over it" and accept your "place" and you will be happier.

In government, they are master-blaster chess players. Everything they do, is strategic, seldom taking into account, full facts of an issue or topic, or social system breaking down. They "use" family and friends and neighbours kids for prime jobs, which are often overpaying 75% in salaries. They take from the poor, to give to the rich. They punish "all" people on the social system, for the few bad ones on the same system. They judge, manipulate, and condemn and control.

Yup.. that'll pretty much set the stage for mayhem.

Today, I learned the 600(hundred) dollars I made in one year; caused a 500 dollar overpayment, and I immediately lose 100 a month, beginning end may. This means, the thousands of hours of work put in,,,to make 600 dollars in a year,,,,resulted in a kick in the ass... my son moves home in 2 weeks for the summer, I will lose another 100 a month instantly; as they will "assume" i will charge him room and board. IF I do, I have to claim it as an income; so making it a 200 dollar a month loss while my son is home...so... without leaving my room; in 6 weeks, I will be living on barely 800 a month, my rent is 500... my son will be home.

so, without leaving my room, working up to 12 hours a day, designing stupid pictures for what? what?... only to keep losing.. losing... losing!!!! HOW The frik am I going to feed my son, with 300 dollars for us both, plus bills?

No what? I WISH I WERE DEAD... I really do... I pray for it, I beg God, for it...but, I am a coward.

Mallika, my life is a prime example of helplessness, hopelessness, and a sytem, whom does NOTHING< to eradicate poverty... only talk, talk, talk... judge, judge, judge...

WE the suffering... judge too...so does God...and silence in doing nothing, is a greater sin, the the greatest sin of murder.

with loving kindness, is there hope for those of us, lost in the shit of society's silence? I can't keep living like this either though.

Ooh, but then.. nobody "really" wants to hear the truth from those "that suffer" only stories about it.... not from the horses mouth.. oooh nooOo...until another Cho breaks...

North

After watching interviews with some of the students at VT, I am again optimistic for the survival of the human race. Most of them were open, intelligent, wise, forgiving, brave and it was obvious they loved their fallen companions very deeply.

Love
Bonnie

Dear Donna, North,

Let me take you to a Polish planet.. I have this aunt, back home, the doctors say, terminal, she's suffering from, lupus, side effects of the medications,
unfullfilled in love, side effections of that,
addictions, side effects of that,
and on, and on..

medical nonsense!~

the moral of the story was, she's still living,
her disable Polish goverment check doesn't cover her medications..

that's the unfair conclusion..

Dr. Wayne Dyer said; there is an universal justice, outthere..
Dr. Chopra said; there is an unversal accounting system outthere..
Louise L. Hay said; look in the mirror and ask: what can I do to make you happy today?

the rest are details..

(*not that that satifies me.. sue the basterds! but that's my polish spirit..;)

love, passion,
marek

Marek, I don't take anything for my atonic/atrophic gastritis, glaucoma.. blah blah. I can't drink; wish I could at many times; but, I am down to maybe 3 times a year, I will drink. I am not mentally, nor emotionally unstable. My body is as pure as it's gonna get; so is my mind, heart and spirit.

Fact though is.. nobody wants to believe it. They don't know how to accept the truth; yet, they expect us to accept their truth?

I am tired of life, Marek; in my situation; why is it so wrong, to admit defeat?

If God loved me truly; he would stop my breath, this instant!! But, he won't.... he is an absentee landlord...just as we all are each others "one" ; we never help the "one" that needs it.

oh, but who cares anyway? So, have fun people; make fun of me again, tease me, call me names...like the past 3 days some person using 3 names has done...

then, ask yourself again. how a Cho is made?

and what, you could have done, to change it?

so, anyway, have fun kids...posted a byebye on my blog.. this gal is disconnecting the net, stopping designing and making cards...I"m going deeper into the jungle of no return..

thanks for the help, everyone!!

There was a gift in poverty, miss North, Donna,
for Polish people that's pretty much, simple,

American law subjects, should take a stroll to the chamber of commererce, they have, great, and fun networking, small bussiness, lectures, gatherings, and .. good for you,

Anyhow back, to my diary, Donna, I'm afraid to say the consultants at Deloitte & Touch, Ernest & Young, Baker & McKenzie, where too busy, not mentiong.. to give you some Canadian tax laws advise, but maybe that's my karma, the boys were busy.. playing.. or..

Draw your own conclusion(s)

You only live once, Donna, The law of Giving, I would prescripe, best of luck, marek

yes, my life is definately under the governments control and flip of a coin; on how they are going to screw the poor "this election" to satisfy overpaid midddle income earners, and to make richer people richer.

I am tired of living like this; eight years of bleepin' pure hell; is that so hard to understand?

Anthony Robbins and then was this Richard Bandler, made these DVD's of one of their lectures, once, great stuff, Donna, I highly recommend it,

Emotional flud, Anthony Robbins calls it,
Imagine bliss, Richard Bandler, did,
The most important quality of the unifield field,
Dr. Chopra, called that meditation, that's the best i can do, best of luck, love, marek, hang in there, otherwise, there was his DVD of Jim Rohn's, about changing seasons.. they come and go..;)

North:

Don't know what to say other than I Love you.
May you find the blessings you deserve.

Love
Bonnie

Lots of condolence... 1'st/2'nd Amendment talk.. Scared Moms.. Minor police changes with increase funding... Some Opportunist Senator possibly from Virginia will introduce legislation with all loop holes which anyway would not be passed (Also Bush has his Veto sword ready and hanging on his belt) NRA lobbyists will already reserve extra funds for both party 2008 candidates... People including Mallika would move on for a different topic of discussion on IB... More guns would be sold.. More people will die... Wise lengthy discussing and blogging American citizens will prefer "Freedom" over life... New guns would be invented which would be future toys for "Freedom" lovers.. In future Vice Presidents who accidentally kill people would be granted immunity from such crimes 'Cos Supreme Court is already under the "Right's" control... Blah.. Blah... Blah... Life goes on...

@North

jesus christ north, you sound pretty pathetic right now.

you do realise that you have choices right. you don't like the state of your life? well you're the only one who's responsible for it, which is great cos it means you can choose to think and live differently if you want

i've had friends who who emotionally have been in an equally pathetic place and they've gotten themselves out of there. you can too. it's easier then you realise.

right now your mind is in a cage. get the f4ck outta there

From The Dark Age Blog

To Live by the Sword
by longsword

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10)

"...for they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matt: 26:52)

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household" (Matt: 10: 34-36)

I invite you to reflect on the irony of the life and teachings of Jesus as revealed in the juxtaposition of these three statements.

My thoughts turn, as I'm sure your thoughts do as well, to the news from Virginia and the violent death of 33 people at the hands of yet another gunman on a school-shooting rampage. I take no satisfaction in having predicted such escalations of school violence as index of our descent into morbidity and nihilism. It is neither clairvoyance nor rocket science. A culture of violence will breed a cult of violence, and these school-shooters do often display a strikingly similar psychology to the acolytes of Kali, goddess of death, and her cult of the thuggee.

Or, the mercenary.

But I was startled to learn, as I turned on the CBC news to hear more of the incident, that these episodes happen so frequently in the US that, as the news announcer confessed, the media have simply ceased to report on all but the most dramatic incidents of school massacre there. My eyes involuntarily opened wide upon hearing that admission. It demonstrates just how quickly we have become inured and numbed to such instances of domestic social violence that they are no longer deemed newsworthy. American society, however, is not alone in that regard as we hear equally now of occasional school killings in Britain, Germany, or Canada. Marc Lepine, author of the Montreal Massacre at the Ecole Polytechnique, may have even set the contemporary standard for similar unstable minds that may aspire to match or exceed it in destructive mayhem and violence. What differs between these societies is perhaps only the rhythmic interval between such acts of domestic terrorism. In different societies these episodes seem only to occur at slower or faster intervals like an occasional sudden hiccough in the regularity of the heartbeat. Too many such hiccoughs, however, and the situation becomes indistinguishable from fibrillation. School massacres -- the killing of teachers and students -- are not at all uncommon in Iraq these days, either. And Iraq is in a state of war and national disintegration.

I note that US government spokespeople have concluded, conveniently, that it was "not an act of terrorism" -- meaning, one supposes, that the gunman was not Arab or Muslim. But most especially it means, that the shooter was not attacking government spokespeople whose lives, as we all know, are indispensible and indispensibly necessary to the life of the nation. Therefore -- not a "terrorist". What a joke. It just demonstrates just how dangerously stupid and naive these people truly are. It is terrorism. It is the ultimate and absolute form of terrorist nihilism. It is a form of terrorism that makes Osama look absolutely benign and compassionate by comparison. These shooters don't gun down defenseless old folks in nursing homes. Nor do they typically go on shooting rampages in shopping malls either. They target the young. They target those with prospects -- those who represent a future which they hate. That says something in itself. To kill the future and all hope for the future which children, youth, and teachers typically represent -- that is the ultimate nihilism. The ultimate revenge in pagan society was to rub out the seed of your foe, so to end his line and his lineage, his posterity, and most especially his name. This contemporary act bears much resemblance to this ancient rite of vengeance.

These school-shooters, who resemble a disease vector, are society's mirror images and canaries in a coalmine, the concentrated foci brought to a white heat of its hubris, its resentments, its anger, its hatreds, its despair, its violence, its frustrations, its decadence and degeneration, its nihilism, who attest by the act -- there is no future! There shall be no future! They are the rolling force of a society's disintegration and resemble the mythical Fates and Furies, or the Norse Berserkers. They represent the indifferent and impersonal law of enantiodromia as it applies to groups, nations, and societies -- an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth -- that those who live by the sword shall also perish by the sword. Which is no more than to say, that those who sow the wind, shall reap a whirlwind.

Keywords: enantiodromia
Posted to: Dark Age

http://www.darkage.ca/blog/_archives/2007/4/16/2885811.html

There, the stress has caused me to vomit! Oops, sorry...this isn't about "me" even though; we "all" agree.. we are all in one, and one in all?

siggggh

Did Karma cause my diseases 8 yrs ago--and is this why I go blind? Did fear, and this is why my stomach is dead? Did ignorance, and this is why the government can use me, and abuse me? Did silence.....when nobody offered help? Was it circumstance, wrong place, wrong time?

It hit all at once... one day... And, here I am; 50; dying so slowly; it's perverted of an evil task; emploring the universal domain for mercy of death; of give me a "life."

dear Mallika,

i've seen cases, in Poland, The Netherlands, far worse, then online, my advise: let's see, what the rest of the spiritual bar, community has to offer, i drink to that, to you health, na zdrowko, marek

What's your problem? big deal?, I advise,
a polish doctor, an indian phychologist, and an polish lawyer, and a mediatation, buzka marek

Apathy = Pathetic

Personal definition:

Whatever! Great motto, this self-reliance B.S.!

Got my own problems. Tell someone who cares.

I'm fine, got mine! I'm okay, you're not, big deal.

You'll get over it. Time heals all wounds. Huh, North?

Good Old Father Time...10,000 years later and still,
no one remembers, much less cares. So what the fuck?

.

So it is written. So shall it be.

yes indeed Mallika.. I have no doubt at all either... and this proves my points with a nail.

"If I had a hammer..."

Mahalo for sharing North. May miracles come your way. With the Tao it is knowing feeling helpless allows the heavens to open because we wouldn't sweet is we didn't experience the bitter. May your world spiral upward and outward to light up the skies within us. love patty

Me thoughts are with you North.

Nice Nick.

Peace

"Can't you remember after all this time?
We have to be wise and wait in the dark
Spreading out cushions on the floor
So that whenever He pleases
My Lord will sit with us."

taken from "Acceptance"
Poems from Tagore

Mallika

I don't think there will be wide spread animosity towards foreign born Americans due to this event. I may be naive.

But sadly the biggest reason this will not cause racial tensions is because it will be forgotten. America already had it's Columbine. That's the event that will be remembered.
It's part of the desensitizing process.

As far as guns go there was another school shooting that was thwarted by a gun owner. He didn't even have to fire a shot. He held it to the killers head and he stopped. A couple students were killed.

You'd hate to think of the society becoming a bunch of gun toters, I'm guessing. It's hard to believe that everyone who owns one takes the time to practice and learns rules and regs and understands that when you pull it out you cross a line that you might not be able to turn away from, and that when you shoot it's not like the Lone Ranger shooting guns out of people hands. You shoot, you shoot to kill.

Personally I think the best defense in these situations (not counting prevention) is a mob mentality. I said this after Columbine also. A self defense training that is based on the Secret Service. A gun goes off or is shown, the shooter is mobbed by everyone instead of running and hiding.
Before 9/11, people sat quietly on highjacked airplanes and cooperated. I think it would be very hard for a highjacker to take a plane easily in this manner now (in fact they lost that strategy that very day on 93).
This is an attitude that must be implemented through out society, I'm afraid.

I work at a small college. I hardly heard anybody talking about this today, the staff. By next week there will be not a peep. In a year, they will be hard pressed to remember the name of that school.

Tonight I watched this very weird memorial service
from Virginia Tech. It was very very strange to say the least, if for nothing else the timing. The bodies have barely been bagged....

The whole thing truly creeps me out...much in the same way Waco did with the mass murder of 90 children as the hands of rogue ATF agents. Something's not right.

I don't know who those students where in the crowd. The crowd of students they had there did NOT look all broken up in grief. If there where any such, the camera didn't pan on them.
I saw kids chewing gum, looking bored, talking on cell phones and checking the time, snuggling and flirting.

Then the imam started talking.

WHO was HE????

I have to admit, Islam grates on my spirit as much as the evil of abortion does, if not more, the evil spirit behind it is the demonic 'prince of persia' spoken of in Daniel. May God rebuke the spirit of radical Islam....and thrust it into hell.

But....WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE??????? I am so weirded out about this ...I can't even think about it with out every alarm in my spirit going off as that something very weird and off is going on.

This crowd did NOT look like a crowd in shock from the **"bloodiest campus attack in American history"**.

And one kid who they interviewed, who was in one of the classrooms where few survived was noticeably in shock...and seemed to be in a trance..that was weird.

And what does "Ishmael Ax" carved in the perpetrators arm mean???And the rant...about darfur etc...

and then where the kids all got up and chanted "lets go hokies" over and over. What was that all about?

And it seems to me no one really wants to talk about that Blessed Teacher who gave his life to save so many kids...a holocaust surviver himself. God bless him.

Sandy

Tuesday, April 17, 2007

'Ismail Ax:' Virginia Tech Mass Killings and Islam

http://unrestintheforest.blogspot.com/

""Ismail Ax" is a well known phrase in the Muslim world. The Muslims believe that the [Old Testament] is wrong in saying that Abraham was supposed to kill Isaac with a knife, rather they believe he was supposed to kill Ishmael (Ismail) with an Axe. They also believe that Abraham was supposed to go out and attack idols with an axe, and some also attribute the phrase to meaning that Ishmael was supposed to kill Isaac, the father of all Western culture, with an axe."

"Maybe the "Ax" was added as a literary reference to The Prairie or Ishmael. Ishmael in particular has a disturbing parallel to Cho's actions:

"As to what brought me back to the neighborhood, Hannah, it was to do some business for the judge, and to buy some stock for the farm. But there, my dear! that boy has slipped out, and is cutting the wood; I'll go and do it for him," said Reuben, as the sound of Ishmael's ax fell upon his ears.

Hannah arose and followed Gray to the door, and there before it stood Ishmael, chopping away at random, upon the pile of wood, his cheeks flushed with fever and his eyes wild with excitement.

"Hannah, he is ill; he is very ill; he doesn't well know what he is about," said Reuben, taking the ax from the boy's hand.

"Ishmael, Ishmael, my lad, come in; you are not well enough to work," said Hannah anxiously.

Ishmael yielded up the ax and suffered Reuben to draw him into the house.

"It is only that I am so hot and dizzy and weak, Mr. Middleton; but I am sure I shall be able to do it presently," said Ishmael apologetically, as he put his hand to his head and looked around himself in perplexity.

"I'll tell you what, the boy is out of his head, Hannah, and it's my belief as he's a going to have a bad illness," said Reuben, as he guided Ishmael to the bed and laid him on it. "

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

Well, I watched more coverage, last night, and it looks like Cho had lived a life that was, from what you hear from people who went to school with him, highshcool and college, in, almost, total isolation, emotionally, and socially. They say he came to this Country around 8 years of age which would be a difficult change for a child, made more difficult if you do not have the love and support you need at home and in society to help with it. We do not know what his home life was like but we do know that his social life was spent in isolation. There is no child in the world who could bear that much isolation for that long, emotionally and socially and not have incredible problems..

Where were his teachers, social workers during his grammer school and high school days? Someone had to notice that a kid has no friends, does not participate, does not communicate. Everyone who talked about him said that he was "quite," never had any friends with him, so his situation was noticable to some extent in his younger years, yet, it seems no one confronted this issue, although his college English teacher really tried, but by that time it was way too late.

Cho lived a lost and isolated life and no child can endure that, it is simply too much for them to bear, that is the tragedy of this mass murder. One lost and extremely lonely young boy, a stranger to himself and apparently to everyone else around him, decides to buy a powerful weapon and use it.

ruth

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

Yesterday, I caught some of the service for the victims of the VT rampage. The renowned poet and author(per article in CNN online today) was asked to participate, and, personally, I found her words, not at all a source of comfort, but, in fact, I thought they were more appropriate for some kind of "student rally", maybe a peace rally or something of that kind, but not a memorial service, but I thought maybe it is just me, my taste.

Today I am reading an article in CNN online where this renowed author says about Cho, "troubled crap" he was downright "mean." Hmmm. Now I understand my reaction to her performance at the memorial service. On her behalf she did, I think, have Cho in her class at one time and she asked to have him leave. So I expect she had first hand experience of his mean-ness.

Still, this boy, was pretty much emotionally and socially isolated for a huge portion of his young life. I wonder how Ms. Giovanni would fare if she had walked in his shoes and experienced almost complete isolation from, apparently, everyone.

So, Ms. renowed poet and author, the boy was troubled, devastating so, and I suspect that could bring out the mean-ness in anyone, especially a totally emotionally and socially ignorant child and adolescent.

Some adult at CNN wrote this blaring headline, big and bold, can't miss it.."Cho downright mean"
I think it is clear to everyone, after his rampage, that Cho harbored a little mean-ness. It is also becoming clear just exactly why.

ruth

Thing is Ruth, unlike Cho who made it to college, you will find that most of the street kids, the ones you will find in downtown shelters or in juvenile, that came from drug-abusing broken homes, these kids too almost to a 100 percentage, feel isolated, alone, like they cannot be understood (mainly b/c they don't even know what they are really thinking themselves), blatantly, they feel alienated!

Yet they never make it to becoming mass-murderers b/c by early adulthood 'we' already have these 'refuse of society' already in prison or strung out on drugs. We may not have poured the alcohol down their throats, or made them smoke the speed; but after the trick-bag of probation/parole, the violations, the court costs and fines, the inability to get educated b/c after having a drug conviction they cannot get into college, they are told by 'the system' to just get some type of physical labor job, praise Jesus, and pay their taxes, with probably other type of financial debt hanging over them as well -- the only true way out these kids see is selling drugs or using them.

Hence we have a larger prison population than India and China combined.

There are many factors that make our American society the most wretched system on this planet; but that would take a book to even begin explaining. Suffice to say look at how much we spend on weapons and war, vote down universal health care or free college, Wal-Mart, service industry, or the local assembly line industrial parks that have yet been outsourced, employees working for slave wages and denied even a food card, and CEOs of oil companies or war industries making 50-100 million dollars a year . . .

Oops, ok, I won't get started . . .

Peace

Like everyone else, I am reduced to sending my heartfelt condolences, and feel for the families and their grieving.

It's just a flat-out tragedy, and as much as I would like to have answers that prevented such things from ever happening again. I just don't.

Not all psychopaths are blatantly obvious before they act out.

Government agencies are overwhelmed with caseloads, and sometimes poorly staffed, so too much escapes their radar.

A person can be pushed over the edge suddenly and snap. It is impossible to make the hindsight demand that teachers and authorities should have been somehow prescient of a particular crime.

Having more processes to help insure the sanity and fitness of a person to responsibly own a gun is a good thing, but I am afraid we are going to see that even that doesn't prevent homicides, just as stricter licensing doesn't stop car wrecks from happening.

Nevertheless, it was pointed out by someone on HuffPo that you cannot have, say, a mass stabbing. If Cho had only been able to get a kitchen knife, and not guns, he might have killed one or two people only and could have been overwhelmed by a crowd before more killing occurred.

Instead, with weapons, you can hold the crowd at bay, picking them off one by one, which is exactly what he did.

On the other hand, the right to bear arms is not only about protecting yourself and family from criminals, it is also there to protect the citizens from their own government. Some of the most savage abuses of civilian populations have been carried out by governments after forbidding their citizens to bear arms. Then the government goes on a rampage against a citizenry that has no resistance to things like ethnic cleansing or violent political purges.

Personally, I would trust the community of friends and neighbors far more with weapons than I trust our government.

When the government starts using weapons against people, it's a sign of a failed state.

When the citizens start using weapons on each other, it's a sign of a breakdown in society.

There's not any easy answers here. For example, what if Cho was required to have a thorough background check - would anything have appeared on his record that would have prevented him from buying a gun? Did he have a felony conviction in his past? Did he have a record of psychological instability? I'm talking about stuff that would have shown up on a background check, not just anecdotes of acquaintances.

Unfortunately, such checks are not going to guarantee that crimes are not committed. Especially in the cases of murder-suicides involving domestic disputes and love affairs, the murderer often has no crime history before the tragedy. The additional checks would have been useless in many cases.

It's not an easy problem to solve.

We are left just with the grief and to pick up the pieces.

Aye Yogi, that the right to bear arms was meant to protect the citizenry from the government, and yet the media and government have done an excellent job in getting people to believe they need the guns as security from 'street thugs.'

Orwellian man, Orwellian.

In fact, have any of the school mass murders that have occurred in the U.S. in the last twenty years been perpetrated by felons? I think probably not.

Love and Unhappiness in an Alien Culture

"After her first visit to this country, Mother Teresa said the United States was the "loneliest" country she had ever been in. A recent Pew poll bears out her impressions by reporting that the number of Americans who have "no one to talk to about a personal issue" has more than doubled in just the last decade. We need to direct our attention to the lonely, depressed, alienated, and emotionally discarded segments of our society. There needs to be a sincere national dialogue about psychotherapy, mental health, and the absence of love in our society which gives rise to the evil that we all are trying to come to terms with today."

http://[DELINKER]counterpunch.org/kroth04182007.html

Everybody is just too busy consuming to care anymore, we are incessantly programmed to be good little consumers; we are all trying to get out of life what we can, who has time for 'the other.' Sheesh, when even major religious figures preach their 'gospel of prosperity' you know we are in a seriously bad situation, or, the 'Law of Attraction' will enable you too to make 'mo money.' While the really rich are just laughing and making more laws, and getting morons to fight for them so they can even further economically benefit.

Apparently we are all inherently greedy, maybe homo economicus is just meant to charge their fellow man interest; but I am not impressed by our evolving from animalistic predators into economic predators -- instead of simply killing for survival, we now kill and economically benefit for our survival -- whoo-hoo, I am impressed. NOT!

Peace

I just looked up Psychopath on google. For the sake of brevity I am not going into great detail but basically it says:
In current clinacal use, psychopathy is most commonly diagnosed using the checklist devised by Emeritus Professor Robert Hare. He describes psychopats as "intraspecies predators" who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they take what they want and do as they please, violating said norms and expectations without guilt or remorse. "What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony."

That covers a lot of people. Furthur on there is a checklist and emotional attributes for Primary and secondary psychopaths etc. I am not going to reiterate those here, but if you check it out and really try to understand it, you will realize that we ALL have the capacity to be psychopaths.

If you are aware, you can observe psychopathic behavior everyday. To say that forcing gun control or early diagnosis of a psychopath or blaming somebody because they didn't intervene earlier only creates more problems.

To me, the only way out of this and other similar problems, is basically to become aware of the old saying "There but for the grace of G-d go I." Maybe then, we might love ourselves a little more, forgive ourselves, and maybe learn to forgive others. Then we would get up off our butts, and do something to improve our own social harmony and situation.

Do I believe we will do this on a collective basis any time soon, unlikely. But we can do it individually.

So, I forgive the young man who perpetrated this.
I pray for all those touched by this incident, that they might find peace and love in their hearts and the ability to forgive.

Love
Bonnie

Very interesting posts by all.

Yogi-one, i agree with much of what you said, especially concerning weapons being available to protect citizens from governmemnt, as well as yourself and loved ones. However, the part about if he had only had a kitchen knife would have made no difference, peopel would have still been put into a situation that most likely they would not have reacted to...they would have become deer in headlights, just waiting for the next choice to be made for them. For the most part a person will not even confront someone with a weapon unless they have been trained, and even then they tend to freeze up because it's for real now. Also, what if there had been a group of people with knives, each killing 2-3 people, or what if they used clubs instead, or an explosive device?
That ole saying that says "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" has a point! Carrying on campus was illegal, yet somehow a criminal broke the law? How strange. And yet the law-abiding students were left without the option to carry a weapon to defend themselves.
Maybe this will actually wake some people up to the fact that each individual must be able to defend him/herself.

Outlawing firearms to law abiding citizens is NOT the answer, the criminals would not turn in their guns, and it would turn into a situation where only the bad guys have firearms. The area with the most restrictive gun control laws- Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate in the country. Probably because only those who are willing to break the law have the guns. Take a look at the states that allow ccw carry and open carry laws, there is much less crime because a criminal knows without a doubt that whomever he is thinking about attacking might piossibly be armed as well.

This is all about survival instinct, i promise you that Cho would not have walked into a police station and started telling the cops to get down on the ground...why is that?

These problems do not lie in what weapon is used, the problem lies in threat management, being aware, knowing what to do if ever placed in a bad situation, and not freezing up because of fear. People never think anything bad is going to happen to them, its always somebody else, or just things you see on televison...then when something does happen they have no clue what to do. The flip side is that if you actually train for something, if you practice self defense, carry a weapon, do some drills for "what if": situations people call you paranoid, or crazy. We train for fire drills, tornado drills, evacuation drills etc...why not for other things?

I will tell you right now that if just 1 person would have sprinted TOWARDS the gunman instead of cowering down, laying passively on the floor, and waiting to accept whatever Cho had in store for them...things might have been different. Unless you have somewhere safe to run that is very close, running away isn't going to do much good. Hiding under a desk or obeying a gunman doesn't always turn out too well either, as was demonstrated that day. I would hope that if put in such a situation, that I would act immediately, without warning, and maybe save some lives, even if sacrificing my own in the attempt.

Remember, a man with a weapon expects you to become submissive! There is a anticipated response he is looking for, he feeds off of the fear he is creating, and THAT is what gives him power...take away the fear response and i promise you he does not feel the control he once had!

Sure, had there not been a gun there would not have been as many deaths...i havent seen too many drive by knifeings these days eaither, but the fact remains, people will still continue acts of random violence with whatever means possible. And some peoples only means of defense may be a weapon, such as a smaller statured person, the elderly, a person in a wheelchair etc.

Ask yourself this, in the very moment your child would be attacked, would YOU pick up a gun, point it, and pull the trigger if it could save your son or daughter from being killed?

I can remember martial arts teachers telling me, if ego is not involved, if your art is done with emptiness, if correct intention is present, you will most always follow the right path. I believe this to be true with all aspects of life, even ones concerning guns.

Michael

Michael you say:
"I will tell you right now that if just 1 person would have sprinted TOWARDS the gunman instead of cowering down.....things might have been different."

I agree, but that person would have to have no fear of dying. Actually there was one instructor who did that and several students credit him with saving their life.

The ultimate defense, would be having no fear of dying.

I would like to think I am at that point, but I honestly do not know how I would react in a situation like that.

Love
Bonnie

There is a saying from a teacher i really respect that says "knowledge is not power, the ability to apply knowledge, especially under pressure is true power"

Or like Mike Tyson once said "EVERYBODY has a plan until they get hit in the face"

The point was that after the first few shots happened it was obvious you were going to die anyway. Putting up a fight might have helped to rally others as well as takin the gunman out of his gameplan. If i knew i was going to die, i would much rather be shot trying to save myself and others than laying face down and executed.

I believe the teacher you are referring to was the one holding the door shut as the others were jumping out the windows?

Mallika,

Was this guy a loaner because he was rejected or by choice?

There are those who like to have time to themselves, perhaps tiring of the BS and fictions of the world, but is there anyone that really wants to be alone and not have any friends? I think not. Everyone wants to be loved and have some interaction with others.

If everyone rejected him which would be an act of non love wouldn't that hurt? Doesn't pain turn to anger?

I wonder was he ever made fun of teased or bullied.

There is more to this story, I hope that some will see through the appearances to the truth.

This act is extremely bizarre. People that fantasize destroying others as coping mechanisms don’t actually carry it out I have heard people say “I am going to kill them” but we know that is often a figure of speech not literal intention. Surely everyone has met at least some good people in the world knowing all are not "evil" and that if they were to kill at random some of these good people might get killed so they could never bring themselves to do such a thing.

What would create a mind capable of this horrendous act?

This is really a 12 out of 300 million thing so what would cause this? Did this guy have psychological handlers that conditioned him via the Internet (his only friends everyone else rejected him) to see the world as a whole being evil, and then gave him serotonin inhibitors to trigger extreme violence? Creating more fear in the world so more people would be willing to give up their rights for a false sense of security?

What created this mental monster that took over this baby born innocent and perfect?, the illusion of separation that the majority practices? What would have stopped the creation? If this guy had a few loving friends might they not have said in regard to those that made fun of him, hey it’s not that big of a deal, not everyone is like that, we love you. The people that are mean to you have a problem not you. This type of communication would stop something like this from happening.

This person was a product of society or some people with very bad intentions.

What is the truth about everyone? Would not everyone want to be a hero? Who would want to be an unloved villain?

THERE IS NOT A SOUL IN THE UNIVERSE THAT WANTS TO BE UNLOVED.

Think about it… what the world needs is to love everyone, but I look around and I see this is not the case, because of the operational fictions.

Well said, Richard.

The Lede blog has been reporting with sensitivity and accuracy on the human aspects of the shootings.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/

(or click my name)

-- The Lede is showing the most recent information about the material mailed to NBC between the two shootings.

In all this, we lose sight of other "loners and aliens" who detonate car bombs, IED's and so on, and kill themselves and others, every single day. Over 170 killed in Baghdad today, and the people who died were as deserving of life and opportunity as those killed by Cho.

I actually think the root of all problems, is that the majority of people have an inability to basically love themselves and one another. You are right Richard, there is not a soul in the universe that does not want to be loved.

Thank goodness, there are enough people around who do love to keep us all from self destructing.

Our society, unfortunately, reacts to a young person like this by subscribing ritalin and similar drugs and call it attention deficit disorder(I think is what it is called.)

But I am optimistic, there have been some positive reactions for change.

Love
Bonnie

Mallika, thank you as well for giving us all the opportunity to interact in such a wonderful place...i continually learn from you, IB, and all of it's members!

hgquinn, well said, i agree that we do loose site of others, and the ones that are dieing each and everyday are just as important as anyone else...my heart goes out to them.

Michael

If this guy was on anti-depressants and then all of a sudden he couldn't afford them and stopped taking them it could trigger the same effect as a serotonin inhibitor causing violence and suicidal behavior. Or if he happen to have been taking a combination of them.

I have seen these drugs really mess up a person’s brain chemistry and anti-depressants and all the other brain influencing drugs they experiment with are very dangerous yet the drug companies would not want us to understand this.

There are natural unprofitable ways to correct chemical imbalances in the brain and body. Doctors are not taught that the human body is an integrated system they try to fix a single part unnaturally and break other parts, which produces even more profit.

There are also a plethora of environmental factors that can mess up brain chemistry

toxins and pesticides
sugar
food grown in mineral deficient soil
processed food
things added to food to increase shelf life
things like Nutrasweet
foreign proteins produced by genetic modification of plants
Phosphoric acid in coke and pepsi
The News (increases cortisol levels)

The citizens of the world need to create organizations, institutions, or government departments that act to protect the health of it’s citizens, currently we do not have any, at least none that are not influenced by corporate interests.

Phosphoric acid binds with magnesium and calcium in the digestive tract to form salts that are not absorbed.

Are there any Einstein’s out there that can tell me what might be the results if someone drinks coke with every meal?

Magnesium deficiency also effects dopamine and serotonin levels causing irritability and violence

Rather than guiding us not to consume things that disrupt the chemical processes in our bodies we are offered drugs like serotonin-reuptake inhibitor, such as Prozac, Zoloft, or Paxil, which might provide temporary relief but over time messes stuff up even more.

So what we have is a number of industries contributing to the creation of a huge profit center around drugs, of course the media gets it’s cut via advertising. The more stress and violence in our country the more drugs are prescribed and sold. So you see there is financial benefit in creating fear and paranoia!

So if anyone out there pretending they are doing something to help make the world a better place really wants to make the world a better place I can tell you how and there are others that know as well.

Until then you can all continue to live with death, violence, destruction and disease and please don’t complain.

Let us put an end to the death and fear industry profit centers, let us bring heaven to earth.

Parents how much do you really love your children that you allow all these fictions to persist?

This tragedy at this University was created by collective ignorance, but rather than looking at ourselves and the systems, I am sure the blame will be placed elsewhere like on guns! Better that than affect all the corporate profit centers. I mean where will all the security companies and law enforcement find work if we have Peace and Abundance for all?

Take away guns and it will probably be worse people will start using gasoline.

Trivializing Virginia Tech

Ben Smith of the Politico reports on a Milwaukee speech by Sen. Barack Obama that, as Smith remarks, "captures what moves a lot of people about Obama, and bothers others." Count us among the bothered. You can listen to the speech in MP3 format, and blogger Jon Sanders excerpts the bothersome part. Obama urges his audience "to reflect a little bit more broadly on the degree to which we do accept violence in various forms all the time in our society." When he says "broadly," he isn't kidding:

It's not necessarily physical violence, but the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways. Last week, the big news obviously had to do with Imus, and the verbal violence that was directed at young women who were role models for all of us, role models for my daughters. . . .

There's the violence of men and women who have worked all their lives and suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them because their job has moved to another country, they've lost their job and they've lost their pension benefits and they've lost their healthcare, and they're having to compete against their teenage children for jobs at the local fast-food place paying $7 an hour.

There is the violence of children whose voices are not heard in communities that are ignored, who don't have access to a decent education, who are surrounded by drugs and crime, and a lack of hope.

So there's a lot of different forms of violence in our society.

Let's try putting this in a slightly different way. According to Obama, it is a form of violence when a racist radio host insults college basketball players. It is a form of violence when people lose their jobs. It is a form of violence when people seek jobs that pay $7 an hour. It is a form of violence when the voices of children in ignored communities go unheard.

And oh yeah, by the way, when a lunatic murders 32 people in cold blood, darned if that isn't a form of violence too!

Anyway, we thought the real problem wasn't violence but cynicism. Or maybe cynicism is just another form of violence.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/

Richard

When I read the description of a psychopath, it said that psychopaths do not respond to traditional counseling and truly we all have some of the emotional imbalances exhibited by psychopaths like anger, irritability etc., we just have the ability to control those emotions and don't commit heinous crimes like this, but corporations, governments, and other institutions practice psychopathic behaviour routinely.

There is no way, anyone could intervene in every psychopath's case or know what exactly will set them off so I can't really blame anyone for not doing it, but we can intervene in the psychopathic behavior of all those institutions that practice on us. And we can only do that by keep informing people---little by little.
BTW I have some additional links for the bees(One of the many things I am personally interested in) Let me know if you want them.

Bonnie

I keep hearing people refer to the college students at Virgina Tech as children and kids.

They are the same ages as the "brave men and women" we send to Iraq.

Yes, yes...I know many may argue that they joined the military voluntarily so they are choosing to put their lives in harms way. I have a younger brother who went to basic training several years ago and said that many of the "kids" he knew who joined did so because they needed the financial help for college or they were trying to get out of bad situations (inner city violence and poverty). Maybe that was just his class...I don't know.

Just a thought I had today.

Hi Bonnie,

"but corporations, governments, and other institutions practice psychopathic behavior routinely."

Yes, I saw that study. I don't think individuals in corporations intend to create anything bad; it is a side effect of greed and fear. Perhaps letting what they want to be true override the real truth distorting their choice of perception.

It could be possible that he was beyond help that most know how to give, the damage being done long ago, I suspect there were some that tried to reach out to him. It has been my experience good caring people are somewhat numerous in our society, thank goodness, and it is a small percentage that cause all the issues in the world, yet it is the rest of use that allow this simply by our silence.

If we think of this from a spiritual perspective it has a divine purpose, perhaps it will bring awareness of the denial of self in others. It’s easy to be spiritual and good when everything is going okay, but soon as things go wrong or fear enters the picture it goes out the door.

Even now on the news there is a spin, an attempt to deny the truth that this guy is a product of society they imply all the wrongs and injustice exist only in his mind.

Perhaps 60% of the money flowing in our economy is blood money, money derived from fear, disease, and death how can any of us not be tainted by it?

For a Change, listen to someone who was there:

A Virginia Tech student writes his reflections on the tragedy.

http://gnosos.blogspot.com/2007/04/reflections-on-mourning-for-virginia.html

"Nikki Giovanni, a faculty member whose eloquent poetry is always a welcome addition to our engineering-focused school, captured our feelings best:

We are Virginia Tech.

The Hokie Nation embraces our own and reaches out with open heart and hands to those who offer their hearts and minds. We are strong, and brave, and innocent, and unafraid. We are better than we think and not quite what we want to be. We are alive to the imaginations and the possibilities. We will continue to invent the future through our blood and tears and through all our sadness.

We are the Hokies.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We are Virginia Tech."

"More impressive were the thousands upon thousands of students, Blacksburg residents, and Hokies and supporters from around the world who showed solidarity in the face of tragedy. No photograph or video I’ve seen since could possibly capture what it was like to see candles raised above heads and people shouting “Let’s Go Hokies!” It seemed odd at first to shout as we do for our football team, but the cry now means so much more. I’m pushing two meters, so I had a good panoramic view of the small flames that stretched endlessly in the black night, each flickering light a person who will miss the fallen, who will never forget their memory, and who will rebuild this university stronger out of this adversity.

We are the Hokies.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We are Virginia Tech."

Good comments everybody!

Peace

In quotes: Virginia gunman's message

Excerpts from video recordings sent to NBC News by Cho Seung-hui - the student who shot at least 30 people at Virginia Tech university on Monday.

You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today. But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.

Screen grab of picture of Cho Seung-hui that he sent to NBC News. Picture from NBC News
Cho Seung-hui sent 28 video clips to NBC

Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.

I didn't have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It's not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you (expletive). I did it for them.

When the time came I did it. I had to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6570369.stm

I am surprised that no one took exception to Michael's post 42. What's the world coming to? Now we advocating that students carry guns to universities? Somehow that's supposed to protect everyone? Is it not enough that we give automobiles, license to drive, violent video games, alcohol and drugs (albeit illegally) to harmone charged young adults? At least at most universities, the worst that happens today is arguments, bullying or minor scuffles. Can you impagine if many were forced to own guns? It is no different from the armed race between the countries. My-gun-is-bigger-than-yours mentality will prevail and there will be more gun violence on the campuses not less. What a nightmare!

I find this argument that somehow if we all had guns we will be more safe specious to put it mildly. Why is that such violent events only happen American schools, and only very rarely elsewhere? Beslan massacre was not committed by a gun owning individual but a bunch of terrorists armed with a complete terror infrastructure, so it doesn't count.

If there was any benefit to the second amendment, and I doubt it did, it was lost in the mists of time, when the government acquired a military capability far exceeding that of any individual or even a group of people. Even if I were to own the guns, would I stand a chance against the modern military of, say Sudan or even Somalia, leave alone that of the United States? Give me a break...

Ravi Kulkarni

Ravi, for one i am not advocating anything other than awareness of a REAL situation that can, does, and did happen...doesn't matter where it happens, what matters is it happens, PERIOD!

Yes it would be wonderful to think we could live in a peaceful world void of any wrong doings by others. Going about our days like blissful sheeple, and knowing for sure that violence would never touch us, our familys, our friends, our neighbors, or community...yes indeed that would be one great day! Now lets come back down to earth, get in this day and age, and look at whats going on in the world right now!

I by no means am saying everyone should own a gun, nor am i saying there would not be some potential problems even amoung law abiding citizens, or well trained individuals who own the guns for that matter. What i AM saying is do not go quietly into the night, face down on the floor waiting to be shot in the back of the head by someone who has decided to take your god given individual right to life away!

It's real easy to sit behind a keyboard and talk about how bad this or that is, how wrong our legislature is, how so and so needs help etc, and i agree, many facets of this situation need to be addressed! But the botton line is this, all that talk means nothing when you come face to face with someone who does not give a crap about gun control, what law was passed, your right to freedom, what god you pray to, what mantra you chant, or whatever you feel is the proper way to behave based on your preconceptions of a given situation gone out of control!

Hopefully you will never have to experience any of this, but if you do, why dont you ask your attacker nicely how much they care about all your moral issues you stand so firmly on! Then after you get out of the hospital come an talk to me about how your views might have changed a bit based on some REAL life experience instead of what you think should be happening!

As far as the whole "would i stand a chance against the modern military of, Sudan or even Somalia, let alone that of the United States? Nah Ravi, i kinda get this feeling that the mindset you have wouldnt let you stand a chance against them, much less anyone else for that matter. More than likely you would be a target, a victim face down on the floor waiting for that next loud pop, and just wishing, hoping beyond hope that those darned ole criminals would once and for all start obeying the "laws" and respecting all our moral values we hold so dear!

Yeah, give me a break indeed!

American Idol hopeful, Chris Richards sang Mayberry by Rascal Flatts and followed it up with heartfelt statement about his fellow Virginians.

In an offshoot it turned into a point of question that resolved nicely with explanation. Further adding emphasis on a cosmic joke.

Cosmic jokes. No one designs them. They just happen. Unless Morson and Ork are alive and well and we are expendable.

In Mayberry they understood Otis. He got a cell for the night and always knew he had a place to go. Barney was never given enough bullets to be dangerous and he was never promoted to police chief.

Like a good fiction, no one ever talked about money.

No such thing as coincidence. As an employee in the psychiatric field, I know insurance deprives good, full, complete psychiatric treatment. Marketing takes place to link need with ability to pay and doctors who are marketers and salesmen with hospitals needing to stay afloat.

It ties the hands of good doctors from doing a thorough job.

From freshman pictures to senior pictures you can see a young man in gradual demise.

Would we take a 5-year-old with a broken leg, throw her in jail and make a steady case against her? No? Why? Because that's sickness. Yes. Exactly.

Why are we barbarically still treating depression and other psychiatric illnesses like crime?

It was an old show. They were silly, though. Mayberry, you know, they missed. They were foolish enough to cut right to the heart of values in every episode where the sheriff sat little Opie down and had a talkin' to him 'coz something was "Weighin heavy on my mind, paw."

Well, like a good fiction, no one ever talked about money.

CSI NY had a fantastic episode about a sociopath. She told lies to pit people against one another and they actually murdered to preserve income, reputation, and status. The last line of the show, "It isn't a crime to be a sociopath."

The way these galactic penal colonies work is that everyone gets out of prison at the same time. Actually we don't get out; we transform our reality from a prison to paradise.

Living the truth in a world of fiction is difficult.
~Infinite Play the Movie

However as more people discard their fictions it will get easier, so there is incentive to help others see through their fictions.

I have developed a new fiction eraser that can be used liberally in your daily story creation.

It is to help us live the truth and get over the fear or doubt hurdle in each instance where we feel tempted to subscribe to a fiction, it is a replacement for prayer, this common prayer ritual itself being somewhat encumbered by fictions yet still producing some good results because a glint of it’s original forgotten purpose remains.

Put your attention on the DIVINE CONCEPT for several moments.

That is it, you don't need to ask for anything, the universe already knows what you need, this act will keep you on the path to fulfill divine intention and reap prosperity and abundance for all without creating turbulence.

When you place your attention on the Divine Concept it erases the fictions and empowers and imparts intelligence and wisdom.

The following shall become common dialog amongst us.

"That's a fiction man"

When we spend time periodically focusing on the divine concept we will have the ability to see through the worlds fictions.

If you don't know what the Divine Concept is, you’re pretending not to know. Quit pretending that is what allows you to subscribe to fictions.

So for the rest of today and forever, when you hear someone state a fiction, call them on it and supply a truth.

Take a few moments now and focus on the Divine Concept.

All One being, both noun and verb, loving, compassionate, all powerful.

It's not really a moral obligation to be good; you’re free to suffer as long as you want. :)

When you meet yourself trapped in the Illusion of separation, wake yourself up.

Found this posted on another forum i frequent concerning murder rates in the USA compared to that of other countries. Michael

The Numbers Speak For Themselves
Despite anti-gun propaganda, the U.S. murder rate is nowhere near that of many other countries.
By John Hay Rabb

Here's a pop quiz for you: Which country in the world has the highest murder rate? If you said the United States, you would be wrong, but your error would certainly be excusable. The incessant drumbeat from the mainstream media and anti-gun groups serves to perpetuate the canard that the U.S. is the bloodiest free-fire zone on earth. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In his article "America: The Most Violent Nation?" researcher David C. Stolinsky shows conclusively that there are a number of countries with higher murder rates than the U.S. This information comes from the United Nations report "The 1996 Demographic Yearbook." The report lists the murder rates in some 86 countries. There are more than 200 countries in the world, and more than 100 did not provide murder-rate data to the U.N. Even so, the Yearbook opens a fascinating window on the failure of gun-control laws around the world.

The connection between murder rates and gun control is quite clear. The vast majority of murders are committed with firearms. Therefore, it is possible to determine if there is any sort of correlation between gun laws and murder rates in selected countries.

Gun laws, like all laws, should be evaluated to determine if they meet accepted measures of success. Gun-control advocates contend that gun laws reduce murders as well as other gun crimes. An examination of this proposition shows conclusively that gun laws fail to reduce murder rates in many countries. Therefore, they fail to meet the fundamental measure of success and should be amended or repealed.

A 1997 Justice Department report on murders in the U.S. shows that our country has a murder rate of seven victims per 100,000 population per year. There are a number of well-known examples of countries with more liberal gun laws and lower murder rates than the U.S. One is Finland, with a murder rate of 2.9. Israel is another example; although its population is heavily armed, Israel's murder rate is only 1.4. In Switzerland, gun ownership is a way of life. Its murder rate is 2.7.

By contrast, consider Brazil. All firearms in Brazil must be registered with the government. This registration process can take anywhere from 30 days to three months. All civilian handguns are limited in caliber to no more than 9mm. All rifles must fire handgun ammunition only. Brazilians may only buy one gun per year. At any one time, they may only have in their possession a maximum of six guns: two handguns, two rifles and two shotguns. To transport their guns, citizens must obtain a special police permit. CCW permits are available but are rarely issued.

Therefore, it should not be a revelation to anyone that Brazil has a thriving black market in guns. Virtually any type of gun is available, for a price. Incidentally, Brazil's murder rate is 19 victims per 100,000 population per year.

In Cuba, Fidel Castro controls every aspect of life with an iron hand, including gun ownership. Castro remembers well how he and his rag-tag armed Communist rebels overthrew the government of Fulgencio Batista and set up a Communist dictatorship. An armed populace is threatening to a repressive government. Still, somebody in Cuba is obtaining guns and using them to murder fellow citizens. Cuba's murder rate is 7.8.

The former Soviet state of Lithuania is now an independent democratic country. But it still retains some vestiges of Stalinism. Lithuania's citizens must obtain a police permit to buy a gun. All guns are registered with the government. Somehow these restrictions are not deterring the criminal element; Lithuania has an unenviable murder rate of 11.7.

Gun control in Mexico is a fascinating case study. Mexican gun laws are simply draconian. No civilian may own a gun larger than .22 caliber, and a permit is required to buy one. All guns in Mexico are registered with the Ministry Of Defense. Guns may not be carried in public, either openly or concealed.

Mexican authorities seem to take a particular delight in arresting and imprisoning unwitting Americans who are not familiar with Mexican gun laws. Americans may not bring legal guns or ammunition into Mexico. Possession of even one bullet can get you thrown in a medieval Mexican prison. The State Department says that at any one time there are about 80 Americans imprisoned in Mexico for minor gun crimes. The State Department even went so far as to issue a special notice to U.S. gun owners, warning about harsh Mexican gun laws. Americans are allowed to hunt in Mexico, but they must first obtain a permit from the Mexican Embassy or a Mexican Consulate before taking their hunting rifles south of the border.

Mexico's murder rate is an eye-popping 17.5. Mexican authorities are fond of blaming the high murder rate on firearms smuggled across the border from the United States. Nonsense. The U.S. has many more personal guns than Mexico, yet our murder rate is far lower than Mexico's. It is Mexico's absurd gun laws that prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves against illegally armed criminals.

Guns are effectively outlawed in Russia. Private handgun ownership is totally prohibited. A permit is required to purchase a long gun. All guns are registered with authorities. When transporting a long gun, it must be disassembled. Long guns may only be used for self-defense when the gun owner is on his own property. By the way, Russia's murder rate is a staggering 30.6.

It is surprising to learn that there is gun trouble in the tropical paradises of Trinidad and Tobago. Here a permit is required to purchase a gun. All guns are registered with the police. In spite of (or perhaps because of) these restrictions, Trinidad and Tobago together have a murder rate of 11.7.

In all fairness, it must be noted that many of the countries with high murder rates have governments and cultures very different from our own. Even so, the fundamental measure of gun-control success still applies. The countries I have discussed, along with many others, have gun laws that are more restrictive than U.S. laws, yet their murder rates exceed the U.S. murder rate. These laws clearly do not meet the fundamental measure of success, which is ultimately to save lives.

What anti-gunners all over the world fail to understand is that people everywhere are basically the same in one important respect. They are determined to protect themselves and their families. If their governments will not allow them to have firearms for self-defense, then they may obtain guns illegally, even at the risk of harsh punishment. It is a natural human response to danger.

Try as they might, Sarah Brady and her bunch will never be able to defeat man's primal instinct to protect himself and his family through whatever means necessary. This fundamental human truth may offer some small measure of comfort to law-abiding gun owners around the world.

Interesting eh? Our murder rate was 7 (6.8/100,000 to be exact) then, as of 2005 it was 5.6, 2006 data is still in raw form spreadsheets but it looks up 1.4%

Maybe we ought to be like Mexico LOL! BTW has anybody seen the stats on how many crimes are committed by illegal aliens? Heck, we're so good we can afford to import violent crime. Or maybe we should try to be more like Brazil, YEA JITS BABY who needs guns?.........well apparently, THEY DO!

It's OK, Europe is a heavenly place to live, no inequalities to cause silly violent riots, no ethno-nationalism, heck even the IRA is getting good press lately. Everyone loves everyone else there and cartoons don't spark calls for Jihad. Europeans have done a great job keeping their own back yard (eastern europe) stable and their former colonies in Africa are another fine example of stability. My GOD, Russia looks sterling in statistics and all those former party members and KGB officials are doing a fine job, like I been telling my friends since the U.S.S.R died "the russians are now our friends," but they keep ignoring me. I actually found the Russian mob in Thailand to be quite frindly and they ran fine business establisments. YEP, America has a lot to learn from the world, but hey at least our politicians aren't getting shot lately like in Japan.........WHAT!!!! I thought guns were banned there? Oh that's right, the guy who did the shooting was part of the criminal element and therefore not subject to Japan's strict gun laws.......

What's with Women and Guns?

1. I have a friend who refuses to allow her little
boy to have toy guns, toy soldiers, tanks, cannons, or any other items that represent the military. I presume he also won't be able to build model fighter jets either. Do women today understand how to raise little boys and not little sissies?

2. I know someone who won't let her kid make a
"finger gun" and go "bang bang". You talk about a kid who will be scarred for life.

3. My girlfriend continues to repeat the same
nonsense that it's more dangerous for her to have a gun because the intruder will take it away from her and kill her with her own gun. I explain to her if you are trained to use it, then you will shoot the intruder long before he's in range to grab it.

4. My mother firmly believes that all guns should be confiscated, yet can't explain how we get criminals to give them up. What kind of nonsense is this?

Have we feminized the whole damn American culture?

Some women are making their men sit to pee now, so
it's just a matter of time before men lose their
testicles to evolution.

This is crazy!

Re#64

"It is not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change."
------Charles Darwin

I am not sure why I feel so strongly compelled to comment. I was really looking for answers or comments on this tragedy by Deepak himself. I am puzzled about why I have NOT heard anything from him about what has happened at VT. George W of all people has had more to say publicly then Deepak Chopra. Perhaps he has spoken about this incident on his satellite radio show. We know your a profit Deepak spelled profit, how about some free advice for humanity on this one? It was interesting to find threads started from what I can see is his daughter. Thank you for starting this thread. It shows that you are not out of touch with what is going on in our current manifested state of reality. However it irritates me that you and your father start topics and NEVER interact or comment on what other people write or say good or bad. I don't know about the other folks, but I have come seeking answers. I can give my perspective about what I think I know, and how I came to it. If I am misguided why not tell me so, and further more why not tell the other posters the same?

I see some really warped thinking in a few poster comments, that in the grand scheme of things is how we all end up with such !@#$ up events like the VT massacre and that Amish school incident. But I never see that pointed out by Deepak in his other blogs or message board postings, and I have not seen any return comments by Mallika on her post here either. Most often the dialogue is from other posters,... some I feel are very thoughtful and come from the light of truth, while others are just way off the mark, and are harmful to themselves and are part of the grand problem.

The best way I can explain how or why this or any of these any horrific events occur, is kind of simple but very complicated. I have come to these conclusions reading some of Deepak's books and listening to his interviews among other spiritual sources. It would appear to me that SEPARATION is the source of the problem. I have come to the conclusion that the Human Ego wants to judge, label, separate, classify, categorize, isolate, value or devalue everything it interacts with. A separation from it's original source. (Energy) (God) -- There I go labeling :-)

I can remember all through my school years from elementary through collage nothing mattered more then what other people or entities thought of you. and I think the same holds true today. Are you a ABCDF student. things like the clothes you wore, Show and tell, the cool bike you had, or do you look better then so and so, who's the strongest. Who can beat up who in fight. People ranging from adults to other kids, Parents, Teachers, School administrators, Coaches, Government standards are always judging you. And if you didn't score well, you are either told, or felt like you didn't fit the mold, you were sub-par, odd, a failure, special or different.

I have often heard it said that children are innocent. I am sorry to say that from my own experience and reflecting on them, children can be just hateful or mean and intolerant as adults can, and they do NOT need to learn it from there parents. I am no expert but I believe it stems from the human condition of separation, and fear. Children have emotions and may NOT be aware of why they have them. It's all a chemical imbalance of sorts that may be corrected with medications, but it also may be corrected through therapy or spiritual self awareness. Thoughts and environment are all factors on ones mood or emotions. A concerned parent can be aware of a child's behavior and choose to correct or tolerate it. But it is no guarantee that that child will NOT be the next monster of society. Jeffrey Dahmer and the Uni Bomber all have other siblings that can be considered normal to our societies standards.

Separation is why we have designer labels, it is why we have different social classes of people, rich people, poor people, middle class people, It is why we have democrats, and we have republicans, It is why we have genocide in Dar-fur, It is why instead of different races living amongst one another as humans, they choose to have clubs or gangs and culture that support their interests. It is why I believe organize religion is just another form of separation and often is the cause of war, and intolerance of the truth. Although jesus was trying, the Jews killed him for being different,...... or was it the Romans,..... I dunno, maybe he lived in quite solitude in hiding, but the heat was on him for his ideas and he was thought to be differnent.

When it comes down to it , basically it's one people's set of ideas that opposes with other people's ideas that create the separation and all of it in different forms. Ideas are NOT real, it is the value we place on them that make them real. The ideas manifest a physical or emotional presence to our reality. According to Deepak we need a new paradigm of thinking. and I think it is one that makes us all aware that we are all one, that we came from the same place. If this is true, and think it may be. it brings new meaning to the term you don't !@#$ where you eat. Don't do harmful things to others, because you are only harming yourself. Treat others with respect cause that is what you want for yourself. We are all one. You wouldn't cut your own arm on purpose would you? Unfortunately there are some who do. What great pain and guilt one's ego must have to harm one's self or others like this kid has done. What state of unconsciousness has his pain created for himself and now others?

To view everything in our reality as one, would be extremely difficult for many swallow. The whole identity or EGO of the mind that thinks we are separate would be smashed. It is very confusing at times for myself. For everything to be seen as one and that we are all dreaming this reality collectively would take the purist of consciousness. Only true pure consciousness perhaps on the scale Jesus or Budda himself can see or live life in this perspective. For anyone to achieve this state or level consciousness one would not be bothered to react the way most of us do from of our emotions. The Hate, Anger, thoughts of Revenge, and Fear are all tricks our EGO plays to keep us separate and away to keep us from believing we are all one. To keep us unconscious.

I believe this is the sick twist and fundamental problem with the human condition and what we believe is our reality. The constant state of being in or out of consciousness. Often what is portrayed in the media and is experienced through our 5 senses good or bad is from a state of unconsciousness. My Ego wants to view this kid as some punk a$$ b@#$ who thought he would get even with all of us, or his perceived enemies by following through with this complete senseless selfish violent act. It would be less then honest for me to say that I don't fantasize or wish that I was there to intercept his attack, stomping and crushing every bone his body. Often I think of just how far he'd gotten if I , or just one person with a gun where there to put him down. Even if I were to miss every shot, or I was to wound him, he would NOT have had free reign and control over the situation. I'm being some what censored about the images in my mind. And yes! It makes feel sick, It Angers me so greatly, and sometimes I start to cry. That is the impact this person has made on me and I wasn't even there.

These are not exactly the thoughts we want to have if we want positive things to happen in our lives. Negative thoughts can manifests things just like positive ones can. Having been a life long, and now former pessimist, I don't need anymore negative energy then what life unexpectedly has to offer. I do have some conscious choice as to what I want to bring into it. For one I don't particular enjoy the entertainment that glorify any humans silly negative ego attributes (American Idol, The Apprentice), and media with pointless gratuitous violence. Shock for the sake of shock is NOT entertaining in my book. But I do enjoy such films as Brave heart, Gladiator, and Kingdom of Heaven that contain violence. Unfortunately things like VT happen, and I'm sorry to say that I think they will continue to happen unless we as the human race can see that we all come from that same source.

I find people will not seek a better way unless there in great pain. People tend not to seek a spiritual solution until they hit a bottom of some kind as I once did. Sadly some do not move in this direction and they do what this person has done, or just kill themselves. I have personally experience isolation, both caused from myself and from others. It only fuels the anger and rage inside. I don't know why it happens this way, but if things like this are the catalyst for people seeking the answer for real truth, love, and peace, does that mean can we never really be without pain and suffering? Did this SOB give us a gift to make us seek the truth? I can see how that perspective would frustrate most people, and it does me. It is sad to say that more often then not, though pain we are lead to enlightenment. Is our very existence based on the balance of positives and negatives? It would appear everything we experience in our reality consists of a balance of positive and negative energy, and that is what atoms are made of. With out the positive, negative would not exist and vice versa. Is this why we have duality?

I'm not here to get into the gun debate, I wish we lived in a reality that guns did not exist. For such a reality to exist everyone would need live and understand life from this one source. I am not sure if this is even possible in our current state of existence. Right now we have various kinds of individuals, people, groups, cultures with different kinds of agendas and perspective. Allot of them think that their way is the only way, and some are more then willing to kill themselves and you to make their point. To sit there and make statements that "Guns Kill People", and "Those damn legal or illegal immigrants are the cause of it all", or "it's all those violent american films", and "that dang rap music", are not on the mark, are ignorant statements and do NOT deal with problem at it's source. Even people kill people is not getting to the root of the problem, although it's close. It's unconscious people that kill people! The massive rape and murders in Africa are not caused by Video games, Rap Music, and American made movies. No one would commit these crimes if they realize they are hurting themselves and are in a true state of consciousness. The crimes in Africa are often committed by children who can't afford shoes let alone a DVD player. Ironically some how they have guns. How does that happen? Why do our leaders of the world turn a blind eye? Why is it so political to stop genocide? Because political leaders see themselves as SEPARATE from others.

I am not so sure that this particular individual was influenced in anyway with what american kids view as entertainment or is considered to be our violent pop culture of today. This person was basically on anti status rant and angry at the world. He more then likely isolated himself from what most kids of his age find entertaining. He mentions several biblical quotes in his manifesto. I found an erie similarity from his video confession, to that of islamic extremist suicide bombers, just before they are going to take innocent life. As we all know islamic extremist hate all american culture, and need no influence from the american entertainment media on how hate and be destructive.

If my opinion has any value, I'd like say what I find is the most destructive motivator of violence is. Nothing on this planet has been so more harmful and destructive to the human race by way of influence then organized religion. If we really want to learn as to why so many are willing to die or kill, it is somehow always linked the extremely distorted views of religious beliefs. Does that mean we close down the churches, synagogs, and mosques. Should we ban religion? No! Cause there is also the truth that a religion can be used for good, as long as it not to used to harm and shut out others. If the world were to be rid of guns today, nothing would change except how and maybe how often someone is murdered. The intent to kill and hate will still be there. People will use other means to kill people just as they did a couple 100 years before the invention of fire arms.

Pick up a history book and see how many thousands died in war in just one day fought with bows and arrows, or swords. I don't believe 911 occurred with the use of any firearms. To ban fire arms altogether would only give assurance to the bad guy with the fire arm, who just kicked in your front door, that YOU the person who's a good law abiding citizen won't have one. I am not for putting the odds in the bad guys favor, like it was for the VT gunman, and I don't own a gun! Most of the violent gun crimes in america are done by individuals who obtained the fire arms illegally, and are not licensed to carry a concealed weapon. A criminal with intent of being a criminal is going prey on the weak, and go where they have the most advantage. They are not going to go by the rule of law. That is why we call them criminals.

I hear it is a debatable that this student purchased these fire arms legally. I hear rumors he may of used a fake ID. However I would agree that more checks and balances may need to be put in place for individuals to purchase a gun. There where plenty of signs this was long coming. If the police and teachers of this student where concerned enough to get him counseling for out of fear of him hurting himself and others, it could have been posted to a national database and reviewed by gun dealers before the sale of a fire arm. Not to mention cross referencing finger print identification. This technology is here today and is available at a very nominal price compared to what we are dealing with now, the cost of 30+ lives. So many warning signs were apparently well documented by school and law enforcement, but they say they lacked any legal backbone to do anything about it. Just based on the limited information released as of today, I think they better review that policy; 30 some lives would be here today if they had found a way. It is a complete case of I told you so, and many are responsible for dropping the ball.

There are no black or white answers as to why a person chose to take this path. Unfortunately we are trying to make logical sense of the actions of someone with an illogical mind. A spiritually bankrupt body, and a sick, mentally ill EGO full of pain, and anguish. There are a series events that could have influenced this person onto the coarse he chose that could have well started out at birth. There are many to share the blame directly and indirectly if one wants cast blame.

It is important to point out that guns will never solve our problem of separation in the world. But they can prevent lose of life as well as take them. I am some what close to law enforcement and I have heard stories of law enforcement officers struck down because they chose not to draw their fire arm. It is a very, very, important fact that is becoming all to clear these days. Law enforcement can NOT and will NOT be there to protect you in time of need most of time. More often then not the crime or damage has already occurred once they arrive. Not only is that my conclusion or experience, that is what I'm told from close friends in the in the law enforcement field. I have personally lost a friend to a murder suicide. Police were called and they could not get there in time. However there were witness that could have stopped it if they were armed, or could get to a gun in some closet. At least the odds would have been in her favor. Your own survival and safety is ultimately your own responsibility. Burying your head in the sand and pretending bad things will never happen to you, and that the rule of law will be there to stop bad things from happening to you, is sure fire way of making yourself a victim. Ultimately you can not live your life in complete fear, or think the worst will always happen. But I always make myself aware of my surroundings and use caution when necessary.

Further more I like to say, protecting my own life or self from harm is my god given rite. It is my responsibility to make the choice of what is best for me. It will NOT and can NOT be regulated by any rule of law other then fate. If I choose to purchase a firearm or any other weapon for my protection, no one has the right to tell me I can't, unless they have a solid reason to suspect I am of danger to myself or someone else. Self preservation is personal responsibility and I wouldn't expect someone else to do it for you. Like it or not this is the reality we exist in.

Thank you - and peace to you all

I am not sure why I feel so strongly compelled to comment. I was really looking for answers or comments on this tragedy by Deepak himself. I am puzzled about why I have NOT heard anything from him about what has happened at VT. George W of all people has had more to say publicly then Deepak Chopra. Perhaps he has spoken about this incident on his satellite radio show. We know your a profit Deepak spelled profit, how about some free advice for humanity on this one? It was interesting to find threads started from what I can see is his daughter. Thank you for starting this thread. It shows that you are not out of touch with what is going on in our current manifested state of reality. However it irritates me that you and your father start topics and NEVER interact or comment on what other people write or say good or bad. I don't know about the other folks, but I have come seeking answers. I can give my perspective about what I think I know, and how I came to it. If I am misguided why not tell me so, and further more why not tell the other posters the same?

I see some really warped thinking in a few poster comments, that in the grand scheme of things is how we all end up with such !@#$ up events like the VT massacre and that Amish school incident. But I never see that pointed out by Deepak in his other blogs or message board postings, and I have not seen any return comments by Mallika on her post here either. Most often the dialogue is from other posters,... some I feel are very thoughtful and come from the light of truth, while others are just way off the mark, and are harmful to themselves and are part of the grand problem.

The best way I can explain how or why this or any of these any horrific events occur, is kind of simple but very complicated. I have come to these conclusions reading some of Deepak's books and listening to his interviews among other spiritual sources. It would appear to me that SEPARATION is the source of the problem. I have come to the conclusion that the Human Ego wants to judge, label, separate, classify, categorize, isolate, value or devalue everything it interacts with. A separation from it's original source. (Energy) (God) -- There I go labeling :-)

I can remember all through my school years from elementary through collage nothing mattered more then what other people or entities thought of you. and I think the same holds true today. Are you a ABCDF student. things like the clothes you wore, Show and tell, the cool bike you had, or do you look better then so and so, who's the strongest. Who can beat up who in fight. People ranging from adults to other kids, Parents, Teachers, School administrators, Coaches, Government standards are always judging you. And if you didn't score well, you are either told, or felt like you didn't fit the mold, you were sub-par, odd, a failure, special or different.

I have often heard it said that children are innocent. I am sorry to say that from my own experience and reflecting on them, children can be just hateful or mean and intolerant as adults can, and they do NOT need to learn it from there parents. I am no expert but I believe it stems from the human condition of separation, and fear. Children have emotions and may NOT be aware of why they have them. It's all a chemical imbalance of sorts that may be corrected with medications, but it also may be corrected through therapy or spiritual self awareness. Thoughts and environment are all factors on ones mood or emotions. A concerned parent can be aware of a child's behavior and choose to correct or tolerate it. But it is no guarantee that that child will NOT be the next monster of society. Jeffrey Dahmer and the Uni Bomber all have other siblings that can be considered normal to our societies standards.

Separation is why we have designer labels, it is why we have different social classes of people, rich people, poor people, middle class people, It is why we have democrats, and we have republicans, It is why we have genocide in Dar-fur, It is why instead of different races living amongst one another as humans, they choose to have clubs or gangs and culture that support their interests. It is why I believe organize religion is just another form of separation and often is the cause of war, and intolerance of the truth. Although jesus was trying, the Jews killed him for being different,...... or was it the Romans,..... I dunno, maybe he lived in quite solitude in hiding, but the heat was on him for his ideas and he was thought to be differnent.

When it comes down to it , basically it's one people's set of ideas that opposes with other people's ideas that create the separation and all of it in different forms. Ideas are NOT real, it is the value we place on them that make them real. The ideas manifest a physical or emotional presence to our reality. According to Deepak we need a new paradigm of thinking. and I think it is one that makes us all aware that we are all one, that we came from the same place. If this is true, and think it may be. it brings new meaning to the term you don't !@#$ where you eat. Don't do harmful things to others, because you are only harming yourself. Treat others with respect cause that is what you want for yourself. We are all one. You wouldn't cut your own arm on purpose would you? Unfortunately there are some who do. What great pain and guilt one's ego must have to harm one's self or others like this kid has done. What state of unconsciousness has his pain created for himself and now others?

To view everything in our reality as one, would be extremely difficult for many swallow. The whole identity or EGO of the mind that thinks we are separate would be smashed. It is very confusing at times for myself. For everything to be seen as one and that we are all dreaming this reality collectively would take the purist of consciousness. Only true pure consciousness perhaps on the scale Jesus or Budda himself can see or live life in this perspective. For anyone to achieve this state or level consciousness one would not be bothered to react the way most of us do from of our emotions. The Hate, Anger, thoughts of Revenge, and Fear are all tricks our EGO plays to keep us separate and away to keep us from believing we are all one. To keep us unconscious.

I believe this is the sick twist and fundamental problem with the human condition and what we believe is our reality. The constant state of being in or out of consciousness. Often what is portrayed in the media and is experienced through our 5 senses good or bad is from a state of unconsciousness. My Ego wants to view this kid as some punk a$$ b@#$ who thought he would get even with all of us, or his perceived enemies by following through with this complete senseless selfish violent act. It would be less then honest for me to say that I don't fantasize or wish that I was there to intercept his attack, stomping and crushing every bone his body. Often I think of just how far he'd gotten if I , or just one person with a gun where there to put him down. Even if I were to miss every shot, or I was to wound him, he would NOT have had free reign and control over the situation. I'm being some what censored about the images in my mind. And yes! It makes feel sick, It Angers me so greatly, and sometimes I start to cry. That is the impact this person has made on me and I wasn't even there.

These are not exactly the thoughts we want to have if we want positive things to happen in our lives. Negative thoughts can manifests things just like positive ones can. Having been a life long, and now former pessimist, I don't need anymore negative energy then what life unexpectedly has to offer. I do have some conscious choice as to what I want to bring into it. For one I don't particular enjoy the entertainment that glorify any humans silly negative ego attributes (American Idol, The Apprentice), and media with pointless gratuitous violence. Shock for the sake of shock is NOT entertaining in my book. But I do enjoy such films as Brave heart, Gladiator, and Kingdom of Heaven that contain violence. Unfortunately things like VT happen, and I'm sorry to say that I think they will continue to happen unless we as the human race can see that we all come from that same source.

I find people will not seek a better way unless there in great pain. People tend not to seek a spiritual solution until they hit a bottom of some kind as I once did. Sadly some do not move in this direction and they do what this person has done, or just kill themselves. I have personally experience isolation, both caused from myself and from others. It only fuels the anger and rage inside. I don't know why it happens this way, but if things like this are the catalyst for people seeking the answer for real truth, love, and peace, does that mean can we never really be without pain and suffering? Did this SOB give us a gift to make us seek the truth? I can see how that perspective would frustrate most people, and it does me. It is sad to say that more often then not, though pain we are lead to enlightenment. Is our very existence based on the balance of positives and negatives? It would appear everything we experience in our reality consists of a balance of positive and negative energy, and that is what atoms are made of. With out the positive, negative would not exist and vice versa. Is this why we have duality?

I'm not here to get into the gun debate, I wish we lived in a reality that guns did not exist. For such a reality to exist everyone would need live and understand life from this one source. I am not sure if this is even possible in our current state of existence. Right now we have various kinds of individuals, people, groups, cultures with different kinds of agendas and perspective. Allot of them think that their way is the only way, and some are more then willing to kill themselves and you to make their point. To sit there and make statements that "Guns Kill People", and "Those damn legal or illegal immigrants are the cause of it all", or "it's all those violent american films", and "that dang rap music", are not on the mark, are ignorant statements and do NOT deal with problem at it's source. Even people kill people is not getting to the root of the problem, although it's close. It's unconscious people that kill people! The massive rape and murders in Africa are not caused by Video games, Rap Music, and American made movies. No one would commit these crimes if they realize they are hurting themselves and are in a true state of consciousness. The crimes in Africa are often committed by children who can't afford shoes let alone a DVD player. Ironically some how they have guns. How does that happen? Why do our leaders of the world turn a blind eye? Why is it so political to stop genocide? Because political leaders see themselves as SEPARATE from others.

I am not so sure that this particular individual was influenced in anyway with what american kids view as entertainment or is considered to be our violent pop culture of today. This person was basically on anti status rant and angry at the world. He more then likely isolated himself from what most kids of his age find entertaining. He mentions several biblical quotes in his manifesto. I found an erie similarity from his video confession, to that of islamic extremist suicide bombers, just before they are going to take innocent life. As we all know islamic extremist hate all american culture, and need no influence from the american entertainment media on how hate and be destructive.

If my opinion has any value, I'd like say what I find is the most destructive motivator of violence is. Nothing on this planet has been so more harmful and destructive to the human race by way of influence then organized religion. If we really want to learn as to why so many are willing to die or kill, it is somehow always linked the extremely distorted views of religious beliefs. Does that mean we close down the churches, synagogs, and mosques. Should we ban religion? No! Cause there is also the truth that a religion can be used for good, as long as it not to used to harm and shut out others. If the world were to be rid of guns today, nothing would change except how and maybe how often someone is murdered. The intent to kill and hate will still be there. People will use other means to kill people just as they did a couple 100 years before the invention of fire arms.

Pick up a history book and see how many thousands died in war in just one day fought with bows and arrows, or swords. I don't believe 911 occurred with the use of any firearms. To ban fire arms altogether would only give assurance to the bad guy with the fire arm, who just kicked in your front door, that YOU the person who's a good law abiding citizen won't have one. I am not for putting the odds in the bad guys favor, like it was for the VT gunman, and I don't own a gun! Most of the violent gun crimes in america are done by individuals who obtained the fire arms illegally, and are not licensed to carry a concealed weapon. A criminal with intent of being a criminal is going prey on the weak, and go where they have the most advantage. They are not going to go by the rule of law. That is why we call them criminals.

I hear it is a debatable that this student purchased these fire arms legally. I hear rumors he may of used a fake ID. However I would agree that more checks and balances may need to be put in place for individuals to purchase a gun. There where plenty of signs this was long coming. If the police and teachers of this student where concerned enough to get him counseling for out of fear of him hurting himself and others, it could have been posted to a national database and reviewed by gun dealers before the sale of a fire arm. Not to mention cross referencing finger print identification. This technology is here today and is available at a very nominal price compared to what we are dealing with now, the cost of 30+ lives. So many warning signs were apparently well documented by school and law enforcement, but they say they lacked any legal backbone to do anything about it. Just based on the limited information released as of today, I think they better review that policy; 30 some lives would be here today if they had found a way. It is a complete case of I told you so, and many are responsible for dropping the ball.

There are no black or white answers as to why a person chose to take this path. Unfortunately we are trying to make logical sense of the actions of someone with an illogical mind. A spiritually bankrupt body, and a sick, mentally ill EGO full of pain, and anguish. There are a series events that could have influenced this person onto the coarse he chose that could have well started out at birth. There are many to share the blame directly and indirectly if one wants cast blame.

It is important to point out that guns will never solve our problem of separation in the world. But they can prevent lose of life as well as take them. I am some what close to law enforcement and I have heard stories of law enforcement officers struck down because they chose not to draw their fire arm. It is a very, very, important fact that is becoming all to clear these days. Law enforcement can NOT and will NOT be there to protect you in time of need most of time. More often then not the crime or damage has already occurred once they arrive. Not only is that my conclusion or experience, that is what I'm told from close friends in the in the law enforcement field. I have personally lost a friend to a murder suicide. Police were called and they could not get there in time. However there were witness that could have stopped it if they were armed, or could get to a gun in some closet. At least the odds would have been in her favor. Your own survival and safety is ultimately your own responsibility. Burying your head in the sand and pretending bad things will never happen to you, and that the rule of law will be there to stop bad things from happening to you, is sure fire way of making yourself a victim. Ultimately you can not live your life in complete fear, or think the worst will always happen. But I always make myself aware of my surroundings and use caution when necessary.

Further more I like to say, protecting my own life or self from harm is my god given rite. It is my responsibility to make the choice of what is best for me. It will NOT and can NOT be regulated by any rule of law other then fate. If I choose to purchase a firearm or any other weapon for my protection, no one has the right to tell me I can't, unless they have a solid reason to suspect I am of danger to myself or someone else. Self preservation is personal responsibility and I wouldn't expect someone else to do it for you. Like it or not this is the reality we exist in.

Thank you - and peace to you all

I am not sure why I feel so strongly compelled to comment. I was really looking for answers or comments on this tragedy by Deepak himself. I am puzzled about why I have NOT heard anything from him about what has happened at VT. George W of all people has had more to say publicly then Deepak Chopra. Perhaps he has spoken about this incident on his satellite radio show. We know your a profit Deepak spelled profit, how about some free advice for humanity on this one? It was interesting to find threads started from what I can see is his daughter. Thank you for starting this thread. It shows that you are not out of touch with what is going on in our current manifested state of reality. However it irritates me that you and your father start topics and NEVER interact or comment on what other people write or say good or bad. I don't know about the other folks, but I have come seeking answers. I can give my perspective about what I think I know, and how I came to it. If I am misguided why not tell me so, and further more why not tell the other posters the same?

I see some really warped thinking in a few poster comments, that in the grand scheme of things is how we all end up with such !@#$ up events like the VT massacre and that Amish school incident. But I never see that pointed out by Deepak in his other blogs or message board postings, and I have not seen any return comments by Mallika on her post here either. Most often the dialogue is from other posters,... some I feel are very thoughtful and come from the light of truth, while others are just way off the mark, and are harmful to themselves and are part of the grand problem.

The best way I can explain how or why this or any of these any horrific events occur, is kind of simple but very complicated. I have come to these conclusions reading some of Deepak's books and listening to his interviews among other spiritual sources. It would appear to me that SEPARATION is the source of the problem. I have come to the conclusion that the Human Ego wants to judge, label, separate, classify, categorize, isolate, value or devalue everything it interacts with. A separation from it's original source. (Energy) (God) -- There I go labeling :-)

I can remember all through my school years from elementary through collage nothing mattered more then what other people or entities thought of you. and I think the same holds true today. Are you a ABCDF student. things like the clothes you wore, Show and tell, the cool bike you had, or do you look better then so and so, who's the strongest. Who can beat up who in fight. People ranging from adults to other kids, Parents, Teachers, School administrators, Coaches, Government standards are always judging you. And if you didn't score well, you are either told, or felt like you didn't fit the mold, you were sub-par, odd, a failure, special or different.

I have often heard it said that children are innocent. I am sorry to say that from my own experience and reflecting on them, children can be just hateful or mean and intolerant as adults can, and they do NOT need to learn it from there parents. I am no expert but I believe it stems from the human condition of separation, and fear. Children have emotions and may NOT be aware of why they have them. It's all a chemical imbalance of sorts that may be corrected with medications, but it also may be corrected through therapy or spiritual self awareness. Thoughts and environment are all factors on ones mood or emotions. A concerned parent can be aware of a child's behavior and choose to correct or tolerate it. But it is no guarantee that that child will NOT be the next monster of society. Jeffrey Dahmer and the Uni Bomber all have other siblings that can be considered normal to our societies standards.

Separation is why we have designer labels, it is why we have different social classes of people, rich people, poor people, middle class people, It is why we have democrats, and we have republicans, It is why we have genocide in Dar-fur, It is why instead of different races living amongst one another as humans, they choose to have clubs or gangs and culture that support their interests. It is why I believe organize religion is just another form of separation and often is the cause of war, and intolerance of the truth. Although jesus was trying, the Jews killed him for being different,...... or was it the Romans,..... I dunno, maybe he lived in quite solitude in hiding, but the heat was on him for his ideas and he was thought to be differnent.

When it comes down to it , basically it's one people's set of ideas that opposes with other people's ideas that create the separation and all of it in different forms. Ideas are NOT real, it is the value we place on them that make them real. The ideas manifest a physical or emotional presence to our reality. According to Deepak we need a new paradigm of thinking. and I think it is one that makes us all aware that we are all one, that we came from the same place. If this is true, and think it may be. it brings new meaning to the term you don't !@#$ where you eat. Don't do harmful things to others, because you are only harming yourself. Treat others with respect cause that is what you want for yourself. We are all one. You wouldn't cut your own arm on purpose would you? Unfortunately there are some who do. What great pain and guilt one's ego must have to harm one's self or others like this kid has done. What state of unconsciousness has his pain created for himself and now others?

To view everything in our reality as one, would be extremely difficult for many swallow. The whole identity or EGO of the mind that thinks we are separate would be smashed. It is very confusing at times for myself. For everything to be seen as one and that we are all dreaming this reality collectively would take the purist of consciousness. Only true pure consciousness perhaps on the scale Jesus or Budda himself can see or live life in this perspective. For anyone to achieve this state or level consciousness one would not be bothered to react the way most of us do from of our emotions. The Hate, Anger, thoughts of Revenge, and Fear are all tricks our EGO plays to keep us separate and away to keep us from believing we are all one. To keep us unconscious.

I believe this is the sick twist and fundamental problem with the human condition and what we believe is our reality. The constant state of being in or out of consciousness. Often what is portrayed in the media and is experienced through our 5 senses good or bad is from a state of unconsciousness. My Ego wants to view this kid as some punk a$$ b@#$ who thought he would get even with all of us, or his perceived enemies by following through with this complete senseless selfish violent act. It would be less then honest for me to say that I don't fantasize or wish that I was there to intercept his attack, stomping and crushing every bone his body. Often I think of just how far he'd gotten if I , or just one person with a gun where there to put him down. Even if I were to miss every shot, or I was to wound him, he would NOT have had free reign and control over the situation. I'm being some what censored about the images in my mind. And yes! It makes feel sick, It Angers me so greatly, and sometimes I start to cry. That is the impact this person has made on me and I wasn't even there.

These are not exactly the thoughts we want to have if we want positive things to happen in our lives. Negative thoughts can manifests things just like positive ones can. Having been a life long, and now former pessimist, I don't need anymore negative energy then what life unexpectedly has to offer. I do have some conscious choice as to what I want to bring into it. For one I don't particular enjoy the entertainment that glorify any humans silly negative ego attributes (American Idol, The Apprentice), and media with pointless gratuitous violence. Shock for the sake of shock is NOT entertaining in my book. But I do enjoy such films as Brave heart, Gladiator, and Kingdom of Heaven that contain violence. Unfortunately things like VT happen, and I'm sorry to say that I think they will continue to happen unless we as the human race can see that we all come from that same source.

I find people will not seek a better way unless there in great pain. People tend not to seek a spiritual solution until they hit a bottom of some kind as I once did. Sadly some do not move in this direction and they do what this person has done, or just kill themselves. I have personally experience isolation, both caused from myself and from others. It only fuels the anger and rage inside. I don't know why it happens this way, but if things like this are the catalyst for people seeking the answer for real truth, love, and peace, does that mean can we never really be without pain and suffering? Did this SOB give us a gift to make us seek the truth? I can see how that perspective would frustrate most people, and it does me. It is sad to say that more often then not, though pain we are lead to enlightenment. Is our very existence based on the balance of positives and negatives? It would appear everything we experience in our reality consists of a balance of positive and negative energy, and that is what atoms are made of. With out the positive, negative would not exist and vice versa. Is this why we have duality?

I'm not here to get into the gun debate, I wish we lived in a reality that guns did not exist. For such a reality to exist everyone would need live and understand life from this one source. I am not sure if this is even possible in our current state of existence. Right now we have various kinds of individuals, people, groups, cultures with different kinds of agendas and perspective. Allot of them think that their way is the only way, and some are more then willing to kill themselves and you to make their point. To sit there and make statements that "Guns Kill People", and "Those damn legal or illegal immigrants are the cause of it all", or "it's all those violent american films", and "that dang rap music", are not on the mark, are ignorant statements and do NOT deal with problem at it's source. Even people kill people is not getting to the root of the problem, although it's close. It's unconscious people that kill people! The massive rape and murders in Africa are not caused by Video games, Rap Music, and American made movies. No one would commit these crimes if they realize they are hurting themselves and are in a true state of consciousness. The crimes in Africa are often committed by children who can't afford shoes let alone a DVD player. Ironically some how they have guns. How does that happen? Why do our leaders of the world turn a blind eye? Why is it so political to stop genocide? Because political leaders see themselves as SEPARATE from others.

I am not so sure that this particular individual was influenced in anyway with what american kids view as entertainment or is considered to be our violent pop culture of today. This person was basically on anti status rant and angry at the world. He more then likely isolated himself from what most kids of his age find entertaining. He mentions several biblical quotes in his manifesto. I found an erie similarity from his video confession, to that of islamic extremist suicide bombers, just before they are going to take innocent life. As we all know islamic extremist hate all american culture, and need no influence from the american entertainment media on how hate and be destructive.

If my opinion has any value, I'd like say what I find is the most destructive motivator of violence is. Nothing on this planet has been so more harmful and destructive to the human race by way of influence then organized religion. If we really want to learn as to why so many are willing to die or kill, it is somehow always linked the extremely distorted views of religious beliefs. Does that mean we close down the churches, synagogs, and mosques. Should we ban religion? No! Cause there is also the truth that a religion can be used for good, as long as it not to used to harm and shut out others. If the world were to be rid of guns today, nothing would change except how and maybe how often someone is murdered. The intent to kill and hate will still be there. People will use other means to kill people just as they did a couple 100 years before the invention of fire arms.

Pick up a history book and see how many thousands died in war in just one day fought with bows and arrows, or swords. I don't believe 911 occurred with the use of any firearms. To ban fire arms altogether would only give assurance to the bad guy with the fire arm, who just kicked in your front door, that YOU the person who's a good law abiding citizen won't have one. I am not for putting the odds in the bad guys favor, like it was for the VT gunman, and I don't own a gun! Most of the violent gun crimes in america are done by individuals who obtained the fire arms illegally, and are not licensed to carry a concealed weapon. A criminal with intent of being a criminal is going prey on the weak, and go where they have the most advantage. They are not going to go by the rule of law. That is why we call them criminals.

I hear it is a debatable that this student purchased these fire arms legally. I hear rumors he may of used a fake ID. However I would agree that more checks and balances may need to be put in place for individuals to purchase a gun. There where plenty of signs this was long coming. If the police and teachers of this student where concerned enough to get him counseling for out of fear of him hurting himself and others, it could have been posted to a national database and reviewed by gun dealers before the sale of a fire arm. Not to mention cross referencing finger print identification. This technology is here today and is available at a very nominal price compared to what we are dealing with now, the cost of 30+ lives. So many warning signs were apparently well documented by school and law enforcement, but they say they lacked any legal backbone to do anything about it. Just based on the limited information released as of today, I think they better review that policy; 30 some lives would be here today if they had found a way. It is a complete case of I told you so, and many are responsible for dropping the ball.

There are no black or white answers as to why a person chose to take this path. Unfortunately we are trying to make logical sense of the actions of someone with an illogical mind. A spiritually bankrupt body, and a sick, mentally ill EGO full of pain, and anguish. There are a series events that could have influenced this person onto the coarse he chose that could have well started out at birth. There are many to share the blame directly and indirectly if one wants cast blame.

It is important to point out that guns will never solve our problem of separation in the world. But they can prevent lose of life as well as take them. I am some what close to law enforcement and I have heard stories of law enforcement officers struck down because they chose not to draw their fire arm. It is a very, very, important fact that is becoming all to clear these days. Law enforcement can NOT and will NOT be there to protect you in time of need most of time. More often then not the crime or damage has already occurred once they arrive. Not only is that my conclusion or experience, that is what I'm told from close friends in the in the law enforcement field. I have personally lost a friend to a murder suicide. Police were called and they could not get there in time. However there were witness that could have stopped it if they were armed, or could get to a gun in some closet. At least the odds would have been in her favor. Your own survival and safety is ultimately your own responsibility. Burying your head in the sand and pretending bad things will never happen to you, and that the rule of law will be there to stop bad things from happening to you, is sure fire way of making yourself a victim. Ultimately you can not live your life in complete fear, or think the worst will always happen. But I always make myself aware of my surroundings and use caution when necessary.

Further more I like to say, protecting my own life or self from harm is my god given rite. It is my responsibility to make the choice of what is best for me. It will NOT and can NOT be regulated by any rule of law other then fate. If I choose to purchase a firearm or any other weapon for my protection, no one has the right to tell me I can't, unless they have a solid reason to suspect I am of danger to myself or someone else. Self preservation is personal responsibility and I wouldn't expect someone else to do it for you. Like it or not this is the reality we exist in.

Thank you - and peace to you all

Dear Michael,

Thanks for your comments (#60). I see a few issues here:

First of all, I am not against gun ownership. If my family were in any kind of trouble, I would be the first one to own one, and I will do whatever is necessary to ensure they are safe, and I believe everyone has the same right.

Secondly, you are trying to confuse the issues here. Individual courage in the face of an ordinary threat is one thing. I consider a criminal or a small group of them attacking a family, an ordinary threat. In such a case, one is expected to be courageous and fight for one's rights etc. What if you are faced with an army. Can you be a man and fight? I think it would be foolish. It is better to look for an escape in such a situation, just as many of those poor souls are doing in Baghdad.

I also read your subsequent posting. If you observe, United States fares better only in comparison with countries where lawlessness and corruption is much higher. Have we fallen so much that, we need to compare ourselves with the worst of the worst and feel good about it? In fact in many of the countries mentioned, the laws are stricter, but no one seems to follow them. I believe in United States the compliance of the law is much higher than in those countries. So, if we have stricter laws, most people are likely to comply than not. So, the argument criminals-get-guns-anyway falls flat.

Accepting that gun ownership is a necessary evil, let's see how we can ensure that it is safe and never falls into wrong hands. How about we ensure that,

1. Gun ownership is a privilege, not a right.

2. It has more onerous requirements than an automobile ownership.

3. Thorough background checks are performed on the entire family that owns gun(s). If we can afford to do a thorough credit check before we lend money, we can certainly do it before handing over a gun.

4. No silencers allowed. If you are going use a gun, it better make itself known.

5. No automatic weapons. We don't want people taking law into their own hands and kill other people indiscriminately.

6. No concealed weapons. If you are carrying a gun in a public place, better make it known to everyone.

7. Insurance against accidental use.

8. Yearly confirmation that owners still have the same gun and it is in good condition.

9. Individuals can not buy or sell it to anyone other than pre approved agencies.

10. Every gun has a unique serial number and the gun ownership database is a public access one.

I am sure you can add to this list to make it more comprehensive. Is it too onerous? Is owning an automobile onerous? I think we owe it to ourselves to make sure that all the guns in the society are accounted for, and only the good guys have access to them. I know that criminals will have access to them no matter what, but make it so prohibitively expensive to do it that only diehard criminals do it. Certainly Cho wasn't one, and if gun laws were stricter, I am sure he wouldn't have obtained one.

Ravi, your nit picking here, changing the type of attack means nothing...the mindset remains the same! Individual courage should be present no matter what the scenerio, wether a one on one situation, or facing overwhelming odds...if you dont have the well to survive, you never will! I can't tell you how many people i have known that have faced overwhelming odds during a combat situation, alone, seperated from their team, injured, running out of resources etc You just don't give up, you improvise, adapt, overcome...sometimes you cant just run, so you fight, even if it means knowing you may die in the process. As Zapata once said, "Id rather die standing than live a life time on my knees"

There's alot worse things than death, we all die, whats important is how we live! How you serve others, how you stand up for what is right even knowing the worst might befall you. It sounds like all you want is for others to handle the situation for you!

What exactly have you done to make sure you and your family are safe in a violent crime situation, home, street, school, public transportation, airplanes etc? Have you gone over any drills for individual as well as group or family tactics, have you taught them urban as well as rural survival skills...what preperations have you made to insure you have some sort of chance if things were to end up in an unfavorable situation? What types of situations, weapons, first aid, emergency responses have you made them familliar with?

It seems to me like all you want to do is have legislation written, and laws passed to take care of these problems. I ask you again, when all that written word goes to hell, and you are facing something very primal, what will you do? An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not always overcome by fleeing from it! And by the way, when i say "unarmed", i am also talking about knowledge.

I also showed some stats about the US not being the only country with such problems, then you back track by saying oh yeah but those countries dont count sense their so lawless anyways lol...i thought the US was the most lawless?
Oh the compliance of the law in the US is much higher than in those other countries?. Wow, where exactly are you living? "Many of the countries mentioned, the laws are stricter, but no one seems to follow them" You mean like how EVERYBODY follows the laws in our country?
Obviously you have never spent much time on the street, or ran with a rough group of people long enough to see exactly how "compliant" these individuals are with the "law" in our country

You are extremely nieve if you truly believe that by making it difficult for criminals to aquire weapons we are much safer...if anything, it makes it more difficult for law abiding citizens. Again, Washington Dc has the strictest gun laws of anywhere in the country and yet the highest murder rate in the nation...why do you think that is?

Heres a news flash for you, The criminals will ALWAYS have weapons no matter what law is passed, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS!! Are you getting the point yet? Once you get that through your head and start becomming aware of taking care of yourself through your own knowledge and resourcefulness the better prepared you will be for something if it were to happen!

We can not always depend on the government, or police, security etc to hold our hands. There must come a time when we take responsibility for our own well being...the rest of the help is just a bonus!

Look, there is always going to be guns, and i suspect the main reason people are fearful of them is because they have never been around them. People just know what they see on television, or what the guns potential is. I promise you that if more people would educate themselves about guns through safety courses, learning how to handle the weapon, cleaning it, loading it, shooting it, weapon retention skills etc, the more people would not be so fearful. I know tons of guys an gals that went through courses that dont even own a gun...they went simply for the fact of aquiring knowledge. They wanted to understand the weapon in case they were to ever encounter it again...its about knowledge, the more knowledge the better!

As it is getting late, i will have to address your top ten gun control soulutions at another time. I will be on vacation for afew weeks!

Everyone take care,

Michael

Dear Michael,

Thank you for your reply. To understand the nuance between an individual v/s an institutional attack, context is very important. The second amendment was written during the times when there was no regular army in the United States. The citizens were expected to bear arms to defend themselves and the country. There was also a deep distrust of the United Kingdom and the country (USA) was not as well defended as it is today. See this reference from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Main text of 2nd amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

As you can see, the security of the state as a whole assumes primacy and that was the original intent of the law. In this context, political observer and writer Noah Webster wrote (quoting from the same Wikipedia entry):

"Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.[9]"

Again, it is clear from this that a band of citizens owning guns could be thought of as being superior in force to the standing army of the union. However, things have changed. Thanks to the modern machinery, no band of people bearing arms could be anywhere close to equal a standing army, such as that of the United States.

Therefore I conclude that the second amendment's context is no longer relevant.

I will reply to your other arguments in the next post.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Dear Michael,

I will not answer your question about what I am doing about my family's security, as it is not relevant to the discussion here.

The difference between fight or flight is really the difference between the tactical and strategic. When faced with an overwhelming force, it makes sense to retreat and regroup. That is a well known military tactic. To win a war you may have to lose a few battles. Gun is essentially a tactical weapon and it is a very effective weapon no doubt. But, if you are faced with an army of terrorists, it is of little value, save the symbolics and the heroics. So, to say that a gun leads to safety is to ignore real life. It may save one against a petty thief, vandalizing a home, but certainly not a determined group of terrorists willing to sacrifice their lives.

The core theme of conservative thinking in governance is that government should be small. The government should provide only two functions: security and infrastructure. Please correct me if I am wrong. Given that premise, it makes sense to say that while I am still primarily responsible for my personal and family's security, in situations where the threat is anything more than trivial, the government should step in and provide the security.

This is really common sense. That's why we have the police and the FBI. So a common man (or woman) is not expected to save oneself from overwhelming threats such as a 911 attack and gun ownership makes little difference in such situations. The public places should be protected by the government and that means, schools, universities, malls, government buildings, parks and the rest.

Does the government have enough money to hire police and FBI agents to post at every public place? Obviously not. As a society we should make some sacrifices and that possibly means higher taxes and more security forces all over the country. The other choice is to at least ensure that such public places are free of life threatening weapons such as guns, and that only people who are law abiding citizens own guns. That's why we need to regulate gun ownership.

As to your argument about criminals owning guns no matter what, I agree with you. But there is a difference. Petty criminals, and non-criminals like Cho with a psychiatric problems, should find it extremely hard to obtain a weapon. Only the crème de la crème (actually, the worst, the most hardened) criminals should be able to obtain guns. It all boils down to the mindset of the society. If the majority of the people do not tolerate illegal gun ownership, and the laws support that, the situation will change.

Coming to your point about this country about compliance of the law. I have grown up in India and been to many other countries. Trust me, most people in this country are law abiding citizens. There is no doubt in my mind that there are quite few who dont. Compared to west European countries and some other advanced nations, the percentage of people breaking the laws may be higher in the United States, but it is nowhere close to the countries you mentioned, such as Mexico, Russia etc.

Just take the example of car ownership. Most people who drive in this country have driving licenses and most automobiles are registered. So the laws will make a difference, if only people desire them.

In the final analysis, a gun is primarily a tool of violence. Violence only begets more violence. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Quoting from the Bible:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

In today's world, it seems silly, but there is a great wisdom in that quote. Humanity is one. If a person is behaving badly, it is a part me that's behaving badly. We need to get to the root causes of the evils and ills that plague our soceity and address them. Labeling people and using weapons to protect against them is only treating symptoms.

Thank you again for engaging in this debate with me. Have a great vacation!

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Ok here are afew thoughts, many of which came from a fellow martial artist after showing him some of the posts here.

You stated "If there was any benefit to the second amendment, and I doubt it did, it was lost in the mists of time, when the government acquired a military capability far exceeding that of any individual or even a group of people."

I hear this all the time. History shows that a rifle and a man capable and committed to using it IS a force to be reckoned with. Any military action requires manpower and machinery, both are vulnerable to well-aimed fire. your talking out of your!@@ here! "Modern" military of Sudan and Somalia, GMAFB!lol

The "nut" is the problem, not the gun. People can either choose to fear or they can chose to be responsible. We can never get rid of guns, those countries that have strict restrictions can't do it and they have harsher punishments and prison systems. Cho was psycopathic and laws were in place that made what he did illegal, we didn't see those laws stop him from commiting the crimes he did. What good will more do other than restrict honest citizens rights and ability to be responsible for themselves. I believe it is the duty of all adults to BE SKILLED in the use of firearms. It is their duty to their family, community and country. You'd think the L.A. riots, Katrina and other similar events would have shown this to be true, on the subject of Katrina and such, people have a duty to have neccessary supplies on hand for such events as well. Their are no absolutes in life (other than death and taxes), but if a CCW/CHL had been present, and had been skilled, and had gotten the drop on Cho... we may have seen less carnage.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

Also, I just can't emphasize this one enough, who can argue against this logic? "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

Would you stand a chance against military if you were skilled with a firearm? I think the insurgents in Iraq have pretty much answered this one!

For the most part GI deaths are attributed to IEDs. But the fact remains many were caused by small arms fire.

It truly is a stupid arguement that the "militia" clause no longer applies in out modern world, so we should get rid of the 2nd amendment.

If a person armed with a rifle is so useless in modern warfare why then is a soldier armed with a rifle? Those who would claim that small arms are ineffectual against modern mil forces truly are delusional. It is the rifleman that occupies territory. The rifleman is the most basic component of a fighting force. A highly trained rifleman is capable of serious havoc if he so chooses to not to engage an enemy in open battle and instead relies upon stealth and careful selection of targets and limits himself to singular targets. You multiply that by 50,000, 100,000 or a paltry million out of the population in the US and see what happens!.

Fear truly does drive the attack on gun rights.....but it's fear of what? What truly drives the UN to seek to undermine our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Two of my profs for International Law were highly intelligent, educated and good-hearted people, but I truly believe that they wished our constitution and BoR would go the way of the dodo bird. Our constitution and BoR is truly unique, for a contrast carefully examine the UN Declaration of Human Rights. My favorite is Art 29

I suppose we are a bit off-track on discussion, but the undermining of the 2nd is a related issue that is so tightly bound to such events that there is no way to discuss one without the other comming into play or under attack. To get back on track......To viliify the tools, and those who use them for legitimate purpose, for the actions of criminals and psychopaths is narrow minded, ignorant and fear driven. To attack the rights of others for the actions of others is....is....hell I don't even have words to describe it. I lack the education and skill at articulating my thoughts so I'll use the language of the every-man......It's friggen !@@ stupid. More people are killed by cars and drunks than guns.....let's ban cars and drunks. More people are killed by medical procedures than guns let's ban medical procedures. More people have been killed by governments (using guns) just in the 20th century than by individual non-government actors weilding guns, so lets ban governments lol

As far as some of your 1-10 proposals...

1. Gun ownership is a privilege, not a right.

Nope, 2nd Amendment is a RIGHT spelled out in the Bill of "Rights." As for Auto ownership, well you don't need a license to own, but you need a license to drive. A driver's license IS a privilege.

3. Thorough background checks are performed on the entire family that owns gun(s). If we can afford to do a thorough credit check before we lend money, we can certainly do it before handing over a gun.

Again, an INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHT cannot be suppressed because of another person in their family. Are we to make a person guilty for something their family member has done, etc.

4. No silencers allowed. If you are going use a gun, it better make itself known.

5. No automatic weapons. We don't want people taking law into their own hands and kill other people indiscriminately.

How many of the REGULATED and REGISTERED silencers and automatics are used in crimes? Were the Autos used in the Cal. back robbry legal......NOPE. Silencers do not "silence" unless one is using subsonic ammunition.

6. No concealed weapons. If you are carrying a gun in a public place, better make it known to everyone

Then you had damn well better learn some weapon retention skills...i cant even imagine the fear based response on this one! Most people freak out when i use my pocket knife for something...cant imagine the hysteria if they saw a firearm lol

7. Insurance against accidental use.

Sure why not

8. Yearly confirmation that owners still have the same gun and it is in good condition.

I will give ya that one too :)

9. Individuals can not buy or sell it to anyone other than pre approved agencies

ok

10. Every gun has a unique serial number and the gun ownership database is a public access one.

Already in place

If we were to assume the gun ownership was in fact a “privilege” than a greater level of restriction would be reasonable. If however ownership is in fact a “right” the any restriction placed upon it must be minimal and not interfere so to say with the “spirit” of the right.

To further illustrate this point let look at 1st Amendment rights. The government is barred from restricting free speech correct? Yes, to a point. A study of case law shows that the government cannot restrict speech that is critical of it, or speech that contributes to public discourse. Government also cannot restrict speech that unless doing so serves a higher public purpose.

One common example given is that a person cannot (for fun) shout fire in a crowded theater because doing so could cause a panic and possible injuries as people stampeded for exits. Therefore government restricts your right to do so and makes you criminally liable.

Another good example of “reasonable” restrictions would be how people can be arrested and charged for holding a demonstration in the public domain without a permit. Holding a demonstration in public that interferes with the traffic, use or access of public property, etc. requires a permitting process which allows consideration of the public’s use, needs and allows notification of the public that such use will be taking place. Government has the authority to restrict “Time, Place and Manner” for these purposes. It does not have the authority to restrict the message. A good, quick example would be “National socialist Party v. Skokie.”

So how can we establish whether gun ownership is a right? Well it’s in the Bill of Rights. OK, but many argue that is a collective right of the state to man the militias of our past. There are several ways to frame our argument, but again we can easily look at a few facts.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Who, or what, is the militia? Instead of me telling you read for yourself.

US CODE, TITLE 10, Sub A, PART 1, CHAPTER 13
§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Now how can we settle who “the people” are in the second amendment? Well we could always read it……

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

We can see that the “states” and people are two SEPARATE entities. All “rights” in the Bill of Rights clearly apply to INDIVIDUALS except for the 10th (X), which reserves powers not strictly “delegated” to the federal government as belonging to the states, or the people, again though….separate entities.
Basically, the difference between our constitution and others is that our focuses on limitations of powers and a separation of powers. Federalism and “States Rights” is too big an issue to address here, but it further illustrates the mentality of limiting power. Again, a review of historical primary sources, namely the founders writings themselves from the period of ratification, will bear out both the ‘spirit” in which the 2nd amendment was meant and the true meaning and objective.

If I had time I would gather up the case law and show how the courts have addressed the gun issue so far, but most recently check out what is said in the D.C. case whereby the ban was struck down. I’ll leave it up to you to do decide the “why.” I would also ask the those who would like to honestly review case law do so by actually reading the court opinions in whole and not cherry-pick things they want to hear. For example, in United States v. Miller gun control advocates cite this as an example of a SCOTUS ruling against gun ownership. Off the top of my head, the reality is is that SCOTUS ruled that a sawed-off shotgun has NO MILITIA/MILITARY USE therefore not protected under the second amendment as it did not appear to be a weapon of the type that would contribute to the common defense as an arm used by militia members. Interesting how things can be scewed by those with an agenda eh?

And by the way, lets get real about why you arent going to answer my question concerning what you have or have not done about your familiys security/education in familiarizing them with certain envirnments, situations, tactics, weapons they may encounter etc!
The reason you arent answering is because you havent done anything!! I have this feeling you are like most other "sheeple" figuring others will take care of YOUR security for you!

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

LOL yeah that all sounds really great in the spiritual realm :)

Think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Rav, cuz i just can"t get where your at! I guess ya just need to let others take care of things for you and your family...hopefully it all works out for you in the end!:)

Goodluck to ya

Michael

Ravi,

After reading over some of my comments i think i may have come across in a bad way, and i apologise.

I want you to know that i do value and respect your opinions...you made several valid points that i agree with. I guess i just feel very strongly about much of this do to myself as well as family and friends having bad experiences with certain things.

Again, i am truly sorry for any disrespect towards you.

Now back to my vacation :)

Michael

That was an interesting list...just came across this article too.

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun ban. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

Students Recount Desperate Minutes Inside Norris Hall
By SERGE F. KOVALESKI and KATIE ZEZIMA

BLACKSBURG, Va., April 21 — The Elementary German class was under way in Room 207, reviewing German translations of computer parlance. A young man peeked in, saying nothing, and withdrew. Students who noticed him thought that either he was searching for someone or trying to locate his class. He did the same thing across the hall in Room 206, and again in Room 204.

Later, some of the students would conclude that he was not actually looking for anyone but was gauging mass — calculating a plan for the limited time he was likely to have, so that he could achieve the greatest carnage.

During the brutal interlude that Seung-Hui Cho spent last Monday on the second floor of Norris Hall, the engineering building at Virginia Tech, he would slaughter 30 people in a matter of minutes, in a furious fusillade of gunfire. From interviews with eyewitnesses who survived the attack, these are accounts of what happened.

•

Sometime just past 9:30 a.m., Mr. Cho reentered Room 206, Advanced Hydrology, a graduate level class taught by Prof. G. V. Loganathan. He shot the teacher and then turned and fired at everyone else in the class.

Guillermo Colman, 38, dove to the floor and huddled against the radiator; another student fell on top of him. At first, he thought this might be a stunt of some sort, something with ketchup substituted for blood, until a bullet hit behind his left ear.

The gunman left, and the students who were still conscious heard gunfire in nearby classrooms. It was not long before the killer returned and pumped more bullets into the students sprawled on the floor. Mr. Colman’s head was bleeding, and for that reason he might not have been shot again, and he lived.

•

In Room 204, the students in Solid Mechanics were learning about strain displacements when they heard what they took to be construction noise, what to them sounded like an enormous hammer pounding.

“It was like someone would hit a nail, pull back, hit a nail, pull back,” said Alec Calhoun, a junior in the class. “Then, after about three hits, we started hearing screams.”

Prof. Liviu Librescu, the teacher, said, “That’s not what I think it is, is it?”

The big hammer was a gun.

One student shouted, “That’s gunfire, I’m getting out of here.” He grabbed his belongings and dashed into the hallway, trailed by one other student. But the killer was in the hallway. The first student was shot twice, but managed with assistance from his classmate to hobble downstairs. They tried the doors, but they had been chained shut and they could not get them open, so they ducked into a ground-floor classroom to hide.

Professor Librescu said, “Someone call 911.”

From the back of the room, Mr. Calhoun waved his cellphone in the air. He had already called.

Desks were hurriedly flipped on their sides as protective shields, and the students crouched behind them. Four students had skipped class, because they had a homework assignment for third period that they had not completed. Another happened to just then be in the bathroom down the hall, and a professor wounded in the hallway ran in and locked both of them inside.

Others, hearing the gunfire, had locked themselves in the lounge and the offices on the floor. The classrooms alone were without locks.

Fearing the door led to death and recognizing that it could not be locked, the Solid Mechanics students chose the windows and whatever fate they would bring. “It was the most helpless feeling I had known,” said Caroline Merrey, a senior. Soon after class was to end, she had a telephone interview scheduled for her first job as a graduate.

One of the students opened a window, leapt onto the windowsill and kicked out the screen. The teacher was yelling at the students to get out as quickly as possible. Students clambered through and began dropping the two stories toward grass that had been drenched by a Sunday rain. Ms. Merrey tossed her knapsack and windbreaker out the window and climbed onto the sill: “I hung from the window from my fingertips and I just closed my eyes and said to myself, ‘Here we go.’ ”

She landed next to a friend moaning that he had broken an ankle.

Nine or 10 jumped, and Mr. Calhoun said he was the last to go. As he stood on the sill, he wavered. He saw students ahead of him fall and get injured, screaming in pain. One would break a leg.

Jump? Don’t jump? A gunman controlled the hall. He spied a shrub and aimed for it. He successfully landed in it, bounced off and finished on his back on the grass. Picking himself up, he sped for the nearest building.

Matt Webster had not yet jumped. Professor Librescu, a Holocaust survivor who was 76, had his weight against the door, but the gunman bulled his way in and shot the professor and then fired at the remaining students.

“He walked over to everyone individually and stood over us and shot down on us,” Mr. Webster said. A bullet grazed Mr. Webster’s head and penetrated his bicep.

A woman near him was moaning from her wounds, and another student was hit in the leg.

Oddly, in all the mayhem, there were no screams. “There was no time for it,” Mr. Webster said. “It all happened so quickly.”

•

The gunfire had roused the attention of others on the floors above and below, and most of them sought refuge in their rooms. Kevin P. Granata, a professor with an office on the third floor, ventured downstairs to investigate. Mr. Cho killed him in the hallway.

Gene Cole, 52, a custodian, was talking to his supervisor on the first floor when a secretary came downstairs and alerted them to sounds of gunfire. Mr. Cole took the elevator to the second floor. He came upon a wounded woman on the floor, writhing in pain, unable to speak. Before he could get to her, the gunman charged out of a classroom, raised his gun and fired five shots at Mr. Cole. All missed.

“I felt the bullets whiz by my head,” he said.

He darted down the stairs, yelling at his boss to get out. Mr. Cole fled through the auditorium exits. His supervisor, Mr. Cole said, hid in the bathroom.

•

The Issues in Scientific Computing class in Room 205 had heard the gunfire. Zachary Petkewicz had shoved a table against the door and held it shut. Mr. Cho managed to get the door open six inches, but no further. He fired two shots into the door, splintering wood but hitting no one, and emptying his clip. One bullet struck the podium, and the other hit a window. The students could hear him reloading as he retreated.

In Elementary German, Room 207, students had heard noise outside, but dismissed it as construction racket. The door was closed. Mr. Cho opened it, and before it hit the doorstop, he was firing.

“There was emptiness in his eyes,” said Derek O’Dell, a sophomore. “He was like a stone.”

He shot Christopher J. Bishop, the teacher, then turned on the class. Students dropped to the floor, jostling for cover. The gunfire continued — 10, 20, maybe 30 shots. The volley covered little more than a minute, but it felt like much longer.

Mr. O’Dell was hit in the right arm. “I was under my desk,” he said. “Then I started belly crawling military-style to the back of the room, while he was firing, and hid under another desk.”

Kevin Sterne, 21, a senior, was shot twice in the thigh, his femur artery ruptured. Drawing on his knowledge as an Eagle Scout, he snatched an electrical cord and wrapped it fast around his leg, stanching the bleeding and saving his life.

Five were dead and most of the others wounded. The four or five who had not been hit lay still on the floor, feigning death to live. There was no hope of escaping through windows here, not on this side of the hallway. Only the bottoms of the windows opened, with a crank, and the opening was too slim. There was no lawn below, just concrete. One student cranked open a window and began screaming for help.

The survivors heard gunfire ringing in another classroom. Trey Perkins feared the killer would return and finish them off: “I told people that were still up and conscious, ‘Just be quiet because we don’t want him to think there are people in here because he’ll come back in.’ ”

Using his belt as a tourniquet, Mr. O’Dell stopped the bleeding in his arm and then leap-frogged across a half-dozen desks to the front of the room. He slammed the door shut and barricaded it with his foot, leaning against the blackboard to avoid shots coming through the door. Two classmates propped their feet against the door. The others tried shoving the podium over, but it was bolted to the floor.

Sure enough, the gunman returned. He got the door open an inch, before the students shut it again. He squeezed off half a dozen shots into the door, and left.

Hearing the disturbances, Clay Violand, a junior in the Intermediate French class in Room 211 told Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, the professor, to push a desk against the door. She glanced out in the hallway first, and pulled her head back with a look of frozen terror. She told her students to call 911 and get down. She shoved a desk against the door, but the barricade did not hold.

“I saw a gun emerge into view,” Mr. Violand said. “Following the gun was a man.”

He ducked under his desk.

The professor and nine students were killed.

“Shot after shot went off and I never felt anything,” Mr. Violand said. “I played dead and tried to look as lifeless as possible.”

He whispered to a classmate, “If he thinks you’re dead, then he won’t kill you.”

And he prayed: “I prayed that an invisible blanket of protection be placed around me.”

Colin Goddard had called 911 and then dropped the phone, the line still open to the dispatcher. A bullet hit him in the left leg, breaking his femur. He, too, lay motionless, and the gunman left.

Moments later, he was back. Lying still on the floor, Mr. Goddard saw shoes approach, heard additional shots fired, then the shoes stopped next to him. He felt two more bullets rip into him, in the shoulder and buttocks. He was still conscious, and he would live. So would Mr. Violand. The shoes moved away, headed toward the front of the room. Somewhere nearby, one more shot rang out.

The police had burst through. Mr. Cho had turned his gun on himself.

Alicia C. Shepard contributed reporting.

Seemed like no one armed themselves? some of the intricacies of the conversation highlight the interviewees "feelings of helplessness" and being a victim.

I can't help but think of the holocaust victims as they were led to the gas showers knowingly to their death.

does anybody think VT president and faculty could have prevented the Norris Halls shootings? And gun control laws being weak or strong doesnt make a difference it is the person standing behind pulling the trigger who is responsible for the shootings. Guns dont kill people, people kill people.