"One reason that people revere Buddha but don't follow him is that they don't feel motivated enough to seek change. "

People who consider themselves Buddhists are following a religion too. There are different sects of Buddhism and certain sects worship Buddha as a deity.

"..We face such riddles(Ahimsa etc) every day, which is why the promise made by Buddha and Jesus, that the truth will set us free, hasn't been fulfilled. How can this situation change?"

Isn't the solution already there in Buddha's teachings?

Rather than a "solution" we are looking for an "understanding". Buddha had no mission to reform the world. He said that truth will set your soul free, if you make an attempt, by awakening you from the illusion of common sense reality and thus ending the suffering of the cycle of life and death.

Buddha, unlike Deepak Chopra, was more concerned with the understanding of world as it "is" rather than what it "should be".

Quite good Hyp! When are you getting awakened from the Illusion of common sense/science reality??

As long as you think you're good, you are automatically "superior". If you decide you're both good and bad, you're still split in two...

But something happens inside and brushes away all the lines, it just happens, and it spreads to larger areas all the time. Like when the wind brushes away footprints in the sand, you wouldn't even believe there has been an imprint there before. What's left is impossible to put a name/shape on, it just intensely IS. I don't know why it happens, what it is that makes it happen. Intention? It feels as if the most inner, secret pattern, or scent, or truth of everything is becoming more and more obvious. Something unspeakable, fragrant, that you are dissolved in.

After Buddha died(physical death), many followers formed sects and different branches of Buddhism over the centuries. For ex: Dalai Lama follows Tibetan Buddhism. But Dalai Lama never preaches this form of Buddhism to those whom he lectures about love and secularism.

Part of the solution which Deepak Chopra has in mind to reform the world into a spiritual society, peaceful society, ideal society etc is The Alliance for New Humanity. This kind of solution is not fundamentally different from many of the Buddhist sects and Indian sects like Ramakrishna Mission, Theosophical society etc.

There is no solution more powerful than following Buddha teachings individually than be concerned about reforming he world as you deem it fit, and further complicating the complexity of the paradoxical world we live in.

"When are you getting awakened from the Illusion of common sense/science reality??"

Science tells us that there is a far greater reality that underlies the common sense reality that we perceive. For example, Theory of Relativity, QM and concepts of Time and Space.

The insights into the nature of reality as illustrated by modern physics is not the common sense reality that we humans perceive.

Deepak Chopra concludes:

"..We face such riddles(Ahimsa etc) every day, which is why the promise made by Buddha and Jesus, that the truth will set us free, hasn't been fulfilled. How can this situation change?"

Such riddles are riddles unless you are not "awake". They melt away when you have a better understanding of the illusion of those riddles.

Yes Dear Hyp, further complicating the complexity of the not only paradoxical world but violent world, may not be correct.

Since time Immemorial, man has been trying for those societies. Study history, you will know how far they succeeded. Where is the hurdle? Where is the block for all those things hyp?? Why did religion keep getting divided into sects and subsects?? Why religion got so corrupted, like buddhism, as is talked in the thread?? "Human nature". ANH will be new, like the beautiful decorated new bottle but with the same old wine inside! Wine has to change, not the bottle. Human beings keep on changing bottles.

Siddharth is blossoming into Buddha now:-)

"..We face such riddles(Ahimsa etc) every day, which is why the promise made by Buddha and Jesus, that the truth will set us free, hasn't been fulfilled. How can this situation change?"

WRONG. The promise of Buddha and Jesus that the truth will set you free IS FULFILLING for those who seek the truth.

There is nothing to change except your own Self.

"..We face such riddles(Ahimsa etc) every day, which is why the promise made by Buddha and Jesus, that the truth will set us free, hasn't been fulfilled. How can this situation change?"

Truth will set you free if you seek truth.

Collective Consciousness is the Truth.
How can Collective Consciousness set itself free?

Truth is Truth
and it needs no setting free, how much complex and riddled the Truth might look to the "unawakened"

Aloha Deepak

Buddha gave up his story. He was like the sky untouched by the clouds. We too are like the sky, when we remember our body is just a corpse and know we witness death all around us as everything breathes in and out. How can anyone not meditate/pray/follow? We are a world of perceptions of I am. love patty

Suddenly after evolving, you're going down again hyp. You've poor concept of Collective consciousness. It is not the truth which needs to set free, don't try to twist things. It is the twisted mind which needs to set free from understanding the truth.

The twisted minds are part of collective consciousness. It is a truth that these twisted minds or unawakened minds, low awareness level minds for whatever reason are part of the world as it IS now and has been since ages. The thinking that truth will set the whole world free and that there will be no more riddles in our human understanding is the idea propagated by religions. Spirituality is more concerned with a persons Self. It is the only thing he can change and set himself free from suffering. Reforming world and collective masses is not the spiritual essence of Buddhas teachings. His followers formed sects and turned Buddhism into a kind of religion. Now do we want New Age beliefs and ideas with a similar mission to reform the world? No...then it isn't spirituality, it is another religion. Dalai Lama follows Tibetan Buddhism but he is still considered to be spiritual for teaching love and secularism. Religion in itself is not the problem, the beliefs are, even if the person considers himself to be spiritual.

Yeah hyp, I mostly agree with you. The rationale behind Deepak and other teachings about reforming the world is: Yes, it is about the Individual first. As more and more individuals get there, the collective consciousness rises. If more and more people have high ideals, it will naturally lead to a better world.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with it. The problem comes, as you said in the opening lines,the twisted(screwed up minds) also constitute the collective consciousness. It is not the exclusive property of Spiritualists or any one else. The net consciousness which comes out of all those people in the world collectively becomes the collective consciousness of the date. More Osamas, bush, and the other ever so friendly hamas fatah grow, the collective consciousness tilts towards the negative. More peaceful people like Deepak DL, and other millions in the world grow in number, it will tilt towards the positive.

It really is a great excercise actually, how do we find out in approximation what is the present collective consciousness and how far are we from the critical mass which is so often talked in theory.

apparently the ego is stronger than dirt!

Steve

"It really is a great excercise actually, how do we find out in approximation what is the present collective consciousness and how far are we from the critical mass which is so often talked in theory."

The equilibrium of these forces is already there. It is a play. It keeps the world going, something for everyone, some conflict, some theorizing, some dreaming, before you die.

In investigating the power of numbers, I found that in ranking religions by adherents, Christianity is #1 with 2.1 billion and Buddhism is #6 with 376 million.

Jesus spoke in parables. I found them to be riddle-like and you draw the parallel of ahimsa leading to a riddle.

And in a moment, I could see, plain and simple. Buddha may have taught us to "be" truth but many are instead being riddles because it was a cornerstone of the brain-memory built in the child and reinforced in the adult to the tune of 2.1 billion or 376 million and so forth.

This past week I saw pictures of the moment a memory is made in the brain.

Michio Kaku said, "Many people find this hard to believe, but there's no software, there is no operating system, there is no Windows programming for the brain. The brain is a vast collection, perhaps a hundred billion neurons, each neuron with 10,000 connections, which slowly and painfully interacts with the environment. Some neural pathways are genetically programmed to give us instinct. However, for the most part, our cerebral cortex has to be reprogrammed every time we bump into reality."

I think some people have packing peanuts between them and their cerebral cortex that keeps them from being touched by reality. Ha ha.

You asked, "We face such riddles every day, which is why the promise made by Buddha and Jesus, that the truth will set us free, hasn't been fulfilled. How can this situation change?"

According to the team at University College London, people with superior memories are made not born.

Thus I think the "situation" can be changed by medical science in proving that useless stored information in a mind is not God speaking, was never God speaking, and should not have gone on to beget masses zealously wanting their teaching to take over more brains.

Primarily, once they prove the workings with sophisticated technology and research, more people will believe they drive their own vehicle and program it without the help of riddlers or riddlers who learned from riddlers.

"Yet I was struck by one comment that these posts received: " I know many Buddhists from Asian countries. They can recite the entire Heart Sutra from memory. But they never meditate. They don't know how to quiet the mind, what the nature of their thoughts are, and they don't have any spiritual practice. Sometimes they go to the temple as a social event, to meet and talk with people, or because their family expects them to.

In other words, Buddha's teachings have suffered the same fate as Jesus's. "

Do you know how many people who consider themselves to be spiritual do understand and practice the spiritual essence other than reciting statements like "I am spiritual, not religious" "All is one , One is All", "I Am" etc?

The problem is not with religion that some of the Buddhists don't follow the spiritual practices of their religion. It is their own Self. They are free to follow what they want.

The problem is with those who consider themselves to be spiritual. There are more people(proportionately speaking) who consider themselves to be spiritualists than the religious people who don't practice the spiritual ideas present in their system of beliefs.

It is going to be the same problem with whatever solution Deepak Chopra is going to come up with, that which the teachings of Buddha and Christ could not change.

Read as....

"The problem is with those who consider themselves to be spiritual. There are more people(proportionately speaking) who consider themselves to be spiritualists, than the religious people, who don't practice the spiritual ideas present in their system of beliefs.

Very interesting Hyp! It's the play, the leela. I personally don't see that critical mass happening soon, it is good in theory. Those who reach higher consciousness do not remain here on earth for ages. They go away, to be replaced by human babies who have to grow to adults again.

If you look at the fruits on a a tree. They don't ripen all at the same time. Some ripen, and after they do, they fall off. Then the unripe ones get ripened. It is not all at the same time. This is what they say about reaching higher planes too, state of enlightenment. A very thin section of human population is there at any given point of time.

Don't worry the world is not going to wake up so soon to Buddha. No way. They are way too busy in their allah or jesus or krishna or just pure money, yum yum money. Only a thin section of the human population can reach those high states(even though in no: it will be several million).

Hyp: If Buddha and Jesus could not change/save the world in their times, what makes you think Deepak can/will?? It will only be theory. I think some people really think the world is going to be saved by all these teachings.

True Ricky, it is important to be more concerned about things as they "are" than how they "should be". This is how Buddha saw it when he talked about "suffering" in human existence and how to become free of it.

Your tree metaphor for world is excellent illustrating the world as it IS:

"If you look at the fruits on a a tree. They don't ripen all at the same time. Some ripen, and after they do, they fall off. Then the unripe ones get ripened. It is not all at the same time. This is what they say about reaching higher planes too, state of enlightenment. A very thin section of human population is there at any given point of time."

It can be noted that the Tree itself will die someday and our earth will die too. The seeds may be spread elsewhere and humanity might find new abodes in the wide cosmos.

I didn't check your #5 and 6. Of course science has gone beyond the common sense reality, but still doesn't have a clue to the absolute, which the Enlightened masters have experienced.

"If Buddha and Jesus could not change/save the world in their times, what makes you think Deepak can/will?? It will only be theory. I think some people really think the world is going to be saved by all these teachings."

"In other words, Buddha's teachings have suffered the same fate as Jesus's. "

There is a BIG difference here.

Buddhism was never used to justify Violence and immoral conduct by their adherents.

"If Buddha and Jesus could not change/save the world in their times, what makes you think Deepak can/will?? It will only be theory. I think some people really think the world is going to be saved by all these teachings."

What is the Mission Statement of "Alliance for New Humanity"?

Can we Patent this tree thing Hyp? LOL! Had to concentrate hard while writing those posts. It is time to laugh a little now.

Hypocrisy is second name of human beings Hyp!!! What have you realized till now?? No point just keeping that name, you've to realize what are humans upto??

No hyp. Religion exceeds the no: of spiritual. Too many jesus allah krishna followers. you too have become delusional by being with some of the spiritualists here. The world is deep into religion hyp. They have a long way to cross that barrier. As you said, even amongst the spiritualists, it sucks!!! In practice, they have a long way to go. Can you see why Buddha or Jesus could not save the great humanity?

I just saw your last post now. Mission statement?? Thank you so much Hyp! I badly needed to laugh!!! LOL! Ask Bonnie, she knows a lot about these bs mission statements!

"If Buddha and Jesus could not change/save the world in their times, what makes you think Deepak can/will?? It will only be theory. I think some people really think the world is going to be saved by all these teachings."

In this dialogue you will see Dalai Lama who is more practical about peace in world and conflict resolutions of outstanding problems in the reliable time frame, unlike Deepak Chopra who has intentions to package Buddhism in a new bottle and sell it, hoping of bringing a change to the present problems of violence, war and terrorism.

This is interesting to read in this context:

from A DIALOGUE WITH DALAI LAMA

Deepak Chopra: Right now I think the number one issue in world is violence and it all begins with violence in the individual, in the family, in the community and ultimately spreads out there.

We have done some studies on conflict resolution. And recently as part of the Gallup Organization and my foundation, which is Alliance for a New Humanity,......

......So having the 8 Noble Truths and maybe even reframing them in a modern kind of context would offer really practical truths, whether it’s right view, or right thinking, or right action, or right mindfulness, or right perspective.

Dalai Lama: It seems to me you are promoting Buddhism.

Deepak Chopra: Because, because I do not see Buddhism as a religion but as a very practical way of understanding ourselves. It’s not a dogma, it’s not an ideology, but it’s something that we should be speaking about as a universal truth.

Dalai Lama: I'm not expecting within next twenty, thirty years a big change in humanity. I don't think so. But the work I think is worthwhile to pursue. We try our best. No regret.

I really, really appreciate all the speakers, and now hopefully the speakers will not only just speak some wonderful things, but will make an effort. So we need in a positive sense some kind of comrades, to work hard, united. That's important. This is my feeling, my hope.

http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/05/a_dialogue_with_1.html

Footsteps coming
Right toward my path

Time erected in space
My head out of distorted shadow of dirt

Flash light bang, white of roses
The sky smells the earth.

The rhythm get out from bright
Steps to heart

There, she is

"No hyp. Religion exceeds the no: of spiritual. Too many jesus allah krishna followers. "

Of course. That is why I said "Proportionately Speaking", in the brackets.

"Too many jesus allah krishna followers. "

Why did you leave out Buddha followers? LOL

Dalai lama was quite generous there hyp. He didn't want to disappoint the crowd there and wanted to show a positive face, so he said "twenty to thirty yrs". LOL! The rate at which they have come and are going, it is better to talk in the scale of centuries. no, this is not a joke. :-)

I agree with you hyp, Dalai lama is far more practical than Deepak and you will hardly see him being delusional, he is very clear.

Good q Hyp! Without a doubt I can tell you if there is one religion which is closest to the ideals of spirituality, it is buddhism. Relatively speaking, when compared with other faiths or major religions it is the most peaceful. Relative, mind you. Having said this side of the story, without a doubt again, you will find many buddhists who will talk only of Buddha. My buddha, no jesus no krishna no allah, just my Buddha, true Buddha! Met any srilankans?

I met a few sri lankans but never discussed religion though.

If I am not wrong, Sri Lankan Buddhism is Mahayana? similar to deity worship in Hinduism I guess.

Btw, Krishna worshipers are not peaceful?I thought some Rama worshipers today are hindutva fundamentalists in India. What about Hare Krishna Movement in the west? aren't they spiritual? they do talk a lot of spiritual stuff and Baghvat Gita which is Vedanta and is related to Advaita, differing in the notion that Brahman is given a personal form so that the Bakhti path of spirituality could be followed. So Advaita is not a religion? Their God Brahman?

Buddha as radical surgeon-

Deepak sees everything in light of his profession.

I understand you are writing a book about Jesus, I'm sure he will be some kind of surgeon, perhaps a compassionate surgeon.

And Moses, well a Jewish surgeon!

Cheers,

Steve

Hey Ram!!! Hyp that is a big chapter of religion. I generally don't dwell much into religion, but may with you as you're damn good at seeing the dark side of human nature in those totally openminded rambhakts. LOL!

Have to go now, but shall continue from where we left. OK? Plz don't drink too much. Meditate a little and be fresh tomorrow:-)

LOL! Ricky, I have been on a mission today to reach a destination point. I am sitting and waiting for the second leg of that mission, and check in and what do I see my name associated with mission(statements) Synchronicity? LOL!

After what I have been through today, I have to share some serious thoughts(I'm not lively at all right now. Oh!) I can see how people could easily get sucked into the quicksand of cynicism. Reality and Illusion have intertwined so completely in our collective behavior that none of us knows anymore what is true or false. Everything we read, hear or see feels like a lie, especially when offered up by someone in authority. And to just navigate this world, it seems you HAVE to assume a dog eat dog attitude. I'm trying not to, but we have to be adaptable too.

Ricky

Also, I am thinking, from a collective viewpoint that while there are enduring human concerns that have always been with us -love/hate, ideals/corruption, work/family etc. and most likely always will be and maybe human nature overall hasn't changed much, there have been some new twists thrown into the plot. Example, in say, the 15th century people talked about the weather and the ebb and flow of the seasons, but they never thought about global warming, or when celebrating the birth of that precious newborn they didn't even think of overpopulation.

If our collective challenge is only to reduce human suffering in taking better care of ourselves and each other, I doubt we are going to make much progress. The teachings of Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tzu(sp) and writings of Shakespear etc are just as relevant today as ever, but the twists(and twisted people too) keep showing up

Speaking of critical mass, it feels like we are close to that point(I don't know which way it is going to tilt) but, and I say this casually for all the scientist out there, At the critical point, things get very unpredictible, and I just hope that all those calling out for the world to change in a more positive way, get their wish. But it could change in a way they never imagined, and we could all wake up one day, and have to change who we thought we were.

Well, that's seriousness(maybe too serious) from me. I have to go now. See ya later. I have to remember I am safe, to be kind, smile at everyone I meet. I hope everyone will do the same.

Bonnie

Hi Deepak,

Quite a range of responses bouncing back to you in a magnetic field. Each response making unique sound, color, motion: emotion. We're all like whirling dervishes stirring up wind. Let it stir! I like the fruit on the tree thread...may we all be humble enough to sit under one and listen. Silence is golden.

Dear Deepak:

Great posts revealing deeper and wider insights into Buddha!!

Trying to understand Buddha scientifically, I have realized Buddha to be ten times Einstein. His teachings when translated into scientific terms and integrated into Einstein’s relativity theory (Holistic Relativity) reveal the “Hidden Factor” of Einstein and the remaining 96% of the universe still to be discovered by the mainstream science/cosmology. I intend to provide a scientific perspective that vindicates many of your observations of Buddha and addresses some follow on open questions in my future posts.

In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the following open questions I am grappling with in understanding Buddha:

1. Why did Buddha have to renounce the world and family life to pursue enlightenment? Did Buddha advise his followers to do the same? Didn’t he violate his oath and obligations to his wife? Several other spiritual masters (e.g. Nanak, Kabir) realized the truth without renouncing and advised others not to renounce to achieve the total wholesome realization.

2. It is understood that Buddha did not believe in the existence of soul. Did he believe (as Buddhism does) in reincarnation that is nothing but recycling of the soul into the next life? If no soul, what does reincarnate? Isn’t the personal soul the moralistic side of the ego coin? If reincarnation happens to be into an animal life because of the so-called bad animal-like Karma by a human in previous life, then how does soul migrate into an animal and how does it ever come out of it if animals have no souls? If they do have souls, can they perform good Karma to reincarnate into a human being again? How does theory of Karma and reincarnation stand up to these apparent contradictions? Furthermore, aren’t theories of Karma and Reincarnation essentially irrelevant to spirituality, which is primarily based on the dissolution of ego rather than its so-called good/bad karmic actions?

Thanks in advance for answering these questions from your deeper and more complete understanding of Buddha.

Love
Avtar

Dear Deepak,

What exists that is not metaphorical?
...where one thing stands on its own without comparison of any kind.

Cinda

Hope to be at your reading this Monday

I refer to #17.Hyp,I have reading several of your posts or comments,reactions to those posts.Compliments are in order.I stand impressed by the knowledge you have of various things.I cannot say I agree with you but I just wanted to tell you I think your capacity to defend your point of view is enormous....BRAIN! thats what you are..But I do agree with you #17 posting where you say that many spiritualists want to reform the world but they have'nt even begun with themselves yet.Practice before you preach.And your absolutely right that the change must begin with self first.How many of us,including me practice what we preach in our daily lives is a fact only our conscience can answer.Regardless,we personally know the truth to that question.

oops sorry #18....excuse me!

Wow, so much cool stuff in this thread! That was one of the best posts I've seen by Deepak! (And I'm not saying this because he quoted part of one of my responses - LOL).

I can't possibly comment on all the intriguing ideas in this discussion, so I'll just tackle a couple that I noted down.

From Deepak's post: "But whenever the known is projected into the unknown, something false is happening and the truth moves further away, not closer."

This is really a problem, because the brain we have is set up to do exactly that. Receive new sensory input, compare it to what we have experienced in the past, and try to formulate some way of fitting it together with what we already know.

And that's a great survival skill that has the side-effect of causing the awareness of the past and future to blossom inside our fragile brown lumps of goo (aka - brains).

Apparently the enlightenment experience itself somehow momentarily manages to break through that conundrum so that the meditator experiences reality directly, and unfiltered, and beyond that, without laying comparisons or interpretations on it.

The necessity of the silent mind seems to have twofold purpose:
1. It takes a lot of energy to think, and this is energy siphoned off from meditative awareness (i.e.- we cannot talk and listen at the same time).
2. It stops the whole "compare any new input to what we already know" process, so that we can simply experience reality directly (most likely for the very first time for most people).

From what I have read, this experience seems to be a shock to the mind and body. Perhaps areas of the brain we normally are not using open up because we aren't tying up the brain's energy with the thought process.

Apparently, even a few moments of this kind of breakthrough is enough to be life-changing, although some Masters like Ramakrishna would sit for hours in the no-mind state.

Apparently, there are brief glimpses of it that happen to people, perhaps at times when they are overwhelmed by their present experience and their mind shuts down involuntarily for a short period.

I wouldn't know directly, of course, not having had the same level of experience as Buddha or Ramakrishna, so I'm really still just speculating here.

Post #9: Hyp: "There is nothing to change except your own Self."

Yes, that's another conundrum. The planetary human consciousness will only change after a very large number (even the low attempts at estimating this number are 100,000 or higher) transform themselves individually.

Thus, organizations like the Theosophical Society, and so on, don't solve the problem of creating an enlightened civilization.

However, as the Dalai Lama stated, the work is still worth doing, because there might be a few people who are inspired and focused enough by what past Masters have achieved to do it for themselves.

And we need balance in the world. If the peacemakers give up because they aren't succeeding, then it's really over for all of us. This raises the problem of not giving in to the warmongering bullies, while at the same time not adopting their techniques to respond to them - but that's another discussion for one of the political threads.

There's other great points I wanted to touch on too, but it's already getting kind of wordy, and alas, I have the errands and responsibilities of everyday life that have to be attended to...

Good posts Bonnie#36,37. Yes, there's lot of twisting and mixing up of things and it becomes quite confusing for the newbies. The motive of profit/money spoils quite a bit in subject like spirituality, leave aside other subjects.

Yes, in different eras mankind has faced different problems. Problems always EXISTED. The forms changed. The wine and the bottle analogy again. They resurface in different forms.

By any stretch of logic, it is hard to see the critical mass Bonnie in the coming yrs to tranform the whole world remarkably by a say a million solid meditators. I can think of that possiblitiy, something very unusual has to happen for that drastic change, you would say aliens. God knows. Are you aware Bonnie, that rt now, in the present state, the world already has the Resources to make the world a better place!!!!! The money, the material. but? There are too many ifs and buts there.

SVN #41 was good! I second your thoughts, Hyp has a Good brain inside his skull. :-) Even though he can be shallow and silly sometimes, when he is serious he is very clear and logical. After you read his posts, if you are serious and frank with introspection, you will realize that lot of what he says has meaning and is clear.

Hyp: I've been re-examining all that I held after all the talking we had. When I place myself in your boots and start to feel, yes it looks quite logical. You're a very down to earth person, and I being a spiritualist we have this natural tendency to float. It's wonderful to experience those planes for yourself, but the world of 6.5b is somewhere else. We can't project our rosy worlds onto them.

Yogi was talking about that number, the least to be 100,000. There has been lot of talk about 64,000 by yr 2012 and that would make a change. I definitely would hope! Hope! That is the word.
Reason tells me an altogether different story.

Recently few yrs back Maharishi was asking the politicans all over the world to give about $40b and he will give them world peace thru' his group of meditators in one yr time. You do not have a good concept of collective consciousness, may not believe. But it is true, it can happen. We cannot provide hardcore evidence as to how it happens, but it is Empirical and it does happen.

More than quantitative, I think it is qualitative when we talk about the critical mass consciousness. The intensity has to reach the threshold. How much is it? God knows.

I especially enjoyed paragraph 6 of the article:

Truth isn't found in words but through insight and self discovery.
Truth isn't taught or learned. It is wrapped inside consciousness itself.
To reach the truth, you must become it. Your consciousness must change untilwhat is false has been left behind.
Then truth will exist by itself, strong and self-sufficient.

These words remind me of the philosophy of the early Egyptians, the students of the mystery schools. They revered what they referred to as the Wisdom of the Heart. They did not trust the rational, reasoning mind. Instead they believed the Higher Mind was reached by the intuitive processes.

How about 7000 people representing the seven billion, with a regionally distributed electoral process incorporating the necessity of anybody, every single body, to vote for the choice of ten names who shall be there picks, and then those names themselves are subject to a lottery, and the winner of the lottery is that regions representative.

And every four years a seventh of the Senate shall be replaced, and no representative is allowed to serve over 20 years.

You could say I guess they shall be humanity’s 7000 co-equally sovereign kings, representing the embodiment of our collective weltanschauung of hope, of faith in the might of an anonymous insight, that we might charitably guide our way right in our 21st century after Christ died. Aye, you could again say, what humanity chose with our heart to say is that in G-d we trust. Amen.

Peace

Off to the springs in the mountain...
Will bath this moon in infinite play!
Love
V

Avtar Singh puts interesting questions to Deepak Chopra on Buddhas view on soul, Karma and reincarnation in Post #39

It would be interesting to hear Deepak Chopra's views.

---

Here are some answers from "WHAT THE BUDDHA DID NOT TEACH" by Geoff Hunt:

Avtar Singh: It is understood that Buddha did not believe in the existence of soul."

WRONG VIEW(Theory)

Buddha denied the existence of ‘soul’ and of ‘God’.

RIGHT VIEW (Practice)

Buddha neither affirmed nor denied the existence of soul and God, because he thought these were fruitless questions. People can always argue about beliefs, but they cannot argue about what they find in themselves – so the Buddha teaches us how to look.

Avtar Singh: Did he believe (as Buddhism does) in reincarnation that is nothing but recycling of the soul into the next life? If no soul, what does reincarnate? "

WRONG VIEW(Theory)
If there is no self, who is reborn?

You are not reincarnated, but something with a likeness to you is reborn (like one candle flame from another).

RIGTH VIEW(Practice)

A wrong view gives rise to a wrong question and a wrong answer. The Buddha neither affirmed nor denied the existence of a person after death, because it is a fruitless question. When you have looked into yourself sufficiently you will see things differently and you will have no further interest in the question of birth and death.

Avtar Singh: How does theory of Karma and reincarnation stand up to these apparent contradictions? Furthermore, aren’t theories of Karma and Reincarnation essentially irrelevant to spirituality, which is primarily based on the dissolution of ego rather than its so-called good/bad karmic actions?"

WRONG VIEW( Theory)
Bad karma is reborn, and good karma accumulates and eventually releases us from the ‘round of rebirth’.

RIGHT VIEW (Practice)
The Buddha thought it was fruitless to ponder whether life and the world is eternal or cyclic or whatever.

It is obvious to most people that good thoughts and actions live on in other people and the environment, and bad ones do too. This is one way in which all human life is interconnected. But this is not a belief or philosophy, but ordinary experience of life.

How you live your life determines whether you become more enlightened, stuck or endarkened. A whole society can also (historically) become more enlightened or stuck or more endarkened. But this was not the Buddha’s main concern.

‘Rebirth’ is not primarily about what happens in time or history, but about you ‘here and now’. As mentioned above, as you persistently and honestly look into yourself you become more enlightened until you feel a significant change has come over you. You might like to describe such a point as a ‘rebirth’.

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In conclusion, Avtar Singh frames wrong question about Buddha's beliefs. Buddha neither denied nor affirmed his opinion regarding the philosophical questions raised by Avtar Singh on existence of souls, reincarnation, and Karma.

Singh's concluding question is inline with Buddha's teachings. His theory of HR it seems is consistent with Buddha's teachings in this regard:

"Furthermore, aren’t theories of Karma and Reincarnation essentially irrelevant to spirituality, which is primarily based on the dissolution of ego rather than its so-called good/bad karmic actions?"

More information at
http://www.zenki.org/buddha-teach.htm

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I have to wonder when Deepak Chopra says, "I know there is Life After Death", "Yes, There is God and Heaven"

And then he goes on to write about Buddha and his Enlightenment.

Without being disrespectful to Deepak Chopra, I must say, he is the not the right source to learn about Buddha.

Buddha was agnostic regarding his belief in God, souls and reincarnation. While Deepak Chopra believes all these, and has several theories and regularly debates on these matters, while:

"The Buddha gave a great deal of guidance on what we can sensibly talk about, and on what we should sensibly remain silent. This crucial teachings of his cannot be ignored in any discussion of 'rebirth', 'kamma' etc. or other 'philosophical' matters."

It can be said that Deepak Chopra doesn't practice(Has beliefs in theories which he argues and debates) what Buddha taught and his theories of God, Heaven and Life After Death are not consistent with Buddha's views, who stressed 'practice' rather than the fruitless 'theory' and 'talk' to know the truth.

#50 says: "Deepak Chopra has this habit, hard-wired in his head, of misrepresenting the words and messages of other's to fulfill the new age dreams of his mind."

VV: It makes sense to me. I've seen him juggling and mixing up things. Yes, I've begun to get doubts now, Is he trying to sell a Wonderful product which people would love to buy?? Have begun to wonder now.

I've great regard for him, on his understanding and versatility, which you may not have seen. He seriously thinks the world can be a better place, his intentions towards it are good. How he does that? You are bringing it out.

We've talked this before too here at ib, there are different levels of existence. The level at which we are here, rt now, on the comp is far different from the ultimate level of existence where, buddha talks of Awareness and this life here is like a dream.

Oh the Dalits, it's another big story. I'm going to get tired if I get into those things. But, you bring it up very well, I must say. I was just watching a debate on tv, about the entry of non hindus in a temple in kerala and also the famous Jagannath temple in Puri where white skin is not allowed. My god!! hinduism, supposed to be one of the most tolerant religion. The kind of hypocrisy which is seen in hinduism and its upper castes is to be seen to be believed.

Buddha was One that cast off all the fictions, and only truth was left behind.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070527/india_nm/india300192

Another good link Waylay, which tells a litte more about that story.

Hello Deepak - I read your other articles about Buddha but sometimes you go over my head. In this one you said -

Buddha was a radical surgeon, and he cut out all labels that put a name on the unknown. Naturally, people who came to him for comfort and solace were shocked that Buddha proposed major surgery.

Can you explain? or someone, Please? thank you.

thinking about labels...

People seem to like the idea of putting God in a box. When God is in a box, like a temple, or a bible, or really any sort of orthodoxy, then we think we have things under control. Now we are the masters. Super Human. And so then we can call God out of the box with the prayers, chanting, dances, meditations, etc, and give instructions on how we want things. And God as our puppet has to do what we want, because we're the true believers, or whatever.
The awareness of God is maybe as an unknown. The word God is maybe just a label...a box...a sarcophagus. Sometimes everyone seems to know everything about the unknown. Or if not then maybe only because it isn't worth knowing.
Because to admit maybe we don't know takes away our imaginary magic power?

Dear Deepak Chopra,
Look how it works minds of these Moons.
First of all it goes in past. Because Buddha was here more than two thousand years ago, these Moons mind have more information after Buddha. So they go on telling that Buddhist from Asian countries are not meditating and so on…
Secondly these Moon minds has to saw that they know about Truth, so Truth isn’t found in words but through insight and self-discovery and so on…
Now this Moon mind knows everything than why they left a Question: How can this situation change?
As Hands will never know how beautiful they create a painting or anything, so Mind will never know the Truth.

Good post Waylay. I'm sure you must have heard the word MULTIFACTORIAL. It simply means there is more than one factor in play. Lot of things in life are multifactorial.

I agree with all that you said in your #58. There are often facets untalked about a particular thing. Most certainly, human nature is such that it wants something new all the time. If it has peace, it would say let's have some conflict, this is getting a little boring now and vice versa. Aren't we a little bored of this "Violence"? To say that it is not about beliefs or to underplay it, is deviating from the truth. It's the core of the conflict!!! What are you talking about? My path, my belief. My Allah. My mohd. sufism? what bs sufism? A sunni would say. It probably means very little to you personally, but lot of conflict is because of this. BIGOTRY! that is what it is called. Intolerant of other people's belief or path. I'm rt ,you're wrong, Idea!

We are not a bigot, when we just let and tolerate other people's path, even if we find it invalid. you can q and debate, that is fine.

Oh well, it's always been good conversing with you. We've often seen different angles to one situation. This is how we expand our horizons.

Bye for now.

Thank you Deepak. Your posts also answered some questions that I had today, as well as bring more questions. So now I am off to read the next part :-) as I catch up.

Love, Char