A strong song for a deep and powerful control over human behaviors: blind-believes, human-laws.

New blood joins this earth
And quickly hes subdued
Through constant pain disgrace
The young boy learns their rules

With time the child draws in
This whipping boy done wrong
Deprived of all his thoughts
The young man struggles on and on hes known
A vow unto his own
That never from this day
His will they'll take away

What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never be
Never see
Wont see what might have been

What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never free
Never me
So I dub the unforgiven

They dedicate their lives
To running all of his
He tries to please them all
This bitter man he is
Throughout his life the same
Hes battled constantly
This fight he cannot win
A tired man they see no longer cares
The old man then prepares
To die regretfully
That old man here is me

What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never be
Never see
Wont see what might have been

What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never free
Never me
So I dub the unforgiven

You labeled me
Ill label you
So I dub the unforgiven...

Mallika:- "Are Bahnaz' and Fatima's struggles and triumphs colored by religious (Islamic) influences, or are these just the stories of women finding their place in a modern world?"

I think it is about the whole human race finding its place in the Universe.
What can that be? I think the clues are there in both as they dance around in the juxtaposition you so thoughtfully gave them. Love is central to that dance, but do we really 'know' it, that is, live it as a whole? We do not, and so Life aborts to ever offer a fresh start, for Love is fresh.
These two both seem to be dying for me and I for them, even unto this post.
Oh Love, refresh me!
Ed.

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

I think everyone would rather change happen from within whether it be a religious community or cultural...but when a religion or culture can call for something like a "fatwa/death threats," murdering women for "family honor," physical abuse of children for any reason, manipulation of young men and women to become martyrs by self detonation, then, in my opinion the West cannot keep silent.

There is a huge difference between diversity and complicity and when it comes down to the suffering of others, before our eyes, we all know the difference.

The West cannot demand but it can influence.

I was watching a program on the history channel about the Iraq war and there was a female helicopter pilot delivering supplies to earthquake victims in Pakistan, and she was also part of our forces stationed in Afganistan and I thought how great it is for these parts of the world to experience a Woman with this kind of skill and power and freedom. It is still, even today, in America, an awesome accomplishment for Women, so one can only imagine what a little Afgan or Pakistani girl sees when she comes across a Woman like this in her backyard..

have a great day everyone, ruth

Mallika

We can accept the people, but in NO WAY are we obligated to accept the violence and negativity inherent in fanatical dogma such as jihad, fatwa, or subjugation of anyone in order to control. Especially, we do not have to accept it on our own turf. Just as we do not have to accept the extreme fundamentalist groups in any religion.

It is our duty to speak out and the best way to do this is by example.

Bonnie

I congratulate you Mallika for bringing up a subject that directly challenges cherished beliefs of diversity, acceptance, and tolerance.

You ask the question whether these are stories of women just finding their place in the world. The father ordered the murder of her daughter for bringing shame to the family, murdered by using a shoestring to strangle his daughter. Some, not all Palestinian mothers pray for the success of their sons and daughters in their suicide missions. Ruth says the west can't demand, but try to influence the stopping of such horrific practices. This was commonplace in the Taliban regime, and it has stopped thanks to the west, at least for now. The Taliban will keep coming back and won't stop until it can force the whole planet to abide by this barbarism.

If you think the Declaration of Independence with concepts of freedom and liberty are pretty good values that the world might benefit from then, how can we stand idly by when we see honor killings, cliterectomies,and not allowing girls to have an education , and yes genocide in Darfur?

Is outrage only acceptable toward Bush and neo-cons?

What is wrong with opening stating that these practices towards girls and women are wrong, and MUST be stopped , period.

Maybe governments in the west can't do much, but WE THE PEOPLE CAN DO A LOT.

Look what one woman , Hirsi Ali has done already.She is literally risking her life to expose these horrible practices. Now we know and the question is , Can we still stand idly by?

I think Mallika, since you are a writer and have some influence, you can do great good by going more deeply into exposing these practices to the world and perhaps the world demands that this stop. It's a courageous and brave thing to do.

Thanks again,

Steve

Mahalo for spotlightening the injustice these women experience. We have to be the change we want to see for the Light shines the brightest where the fabric is the weakest. We have to see with the eyes of a Love that is inclusive of I am. love patty

I also suggest 'Because they Hate' by Brigitte Gabriel.

From Publishers Weekly:
'With strident confidence, American Congress for Truth founder Gabriel rebukes the American public for being "weak, asleep or careless" in the face of Muslim terrorism. A Christian survivor of the vicious civil war between Lebanese Christians and Muslims in the 1970s, Gabriel leans on her own terrifying experiences to condemn Muslims, without apparent regard for their ethnicity, ideology or historical role. Consistently using the words "Muslim" and "Arab" as if they were interchangeable, she concludes that the U.S. is "facing total destruction" at the hands of people who are uncultured and cruel, and prescribes such solutions as "profile, profile and profile," and banning "hate education" in Islamic institutions. Though her writing is eloquent and her passion tremendous, Gabriel's strict dichotomy between "evil versus goodness" is too extreme to be informative. Readers will be forced to decide whether or not to accept her heart-felt bias.'

She is a very good and passionate speaker and, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, has been making the crazy 'right wing' radio talk show circuit for awhile.

Miss Gabreil is a passionate and gifted speaker.
One of my favorite quotes from her concerns putting 'political correctness in the garbage where it belongs'.

For contrast, here is review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book 'Infidel'.

From Publishers Weekly:
'Starred Review. Readers with an eye on European politics will recognize Ali as the Somali-born member of the Dutch parliament who faced death threats after collaborating on a film about domestic violence against Muslim women with controversial director Theo van Gogh (who was himself assassinated). Even before then, her attacks on Islamic culture as "brutal, bigoted, [and] fixated on controlling women" had generated much controversy. In this suspenseful account of her life and her internal struggle with her Muslim faith, she discusses how these views were shaped by her experiences amid the political chaos of Somalia and other African nations, where she was subjected to genital mutilation and later forced into an unwanted marriage. While in transit to her husband in Canada, she decided to seek asylum in the Netherlands, where she marveled at the polite policemen and government bureaucrats. Ali is up-front about having lied about her background in order to obtain her citizenship, which led to further controversy in early 2006, when an immigration official sought to deport her and triggered the collapse of the Dutch coalition government. Apart from feelings of guilt over van Gogh's death, her voice is forceful and unbowed—like Irshad Manji, she delivers a powerful feminist critique of Islam informed by a genuine understanding of the religion.'

Well, the Koran is on my list of 'to read,' but still having gotten around to it or found someone to recommend a version. But I'm told all translations/versions are pretty much the same.

Anyway, I've had 3 Muslim ex-boyfriends in one year, which is probably why I have not dated in almost 2-years. I just cannot overcome what I had to deal with, which reminded me of the the Deep South and I thought I had gotten away from that type of culture by move to CA. One of my Muslim ex-boyfriends slapped me for no reason, the other one said I need a spanking in a harsh tone (I think he meant it), and the last one never respected me as woman (same with the other two). I don't know how I attracted this, but maybe they like blonds? Or maybe I needed to deal with what I ran away from or maybe I have not really changed all that much within myself? I don't know. All my Muslim ex-boyfriends all seemed really sweet and even today have been the kindess men that I have known for some time. They acted dumb-founded when I challenged their treatment, as if I was from another world. I guess we were worlds apart. I don't know, but there is certainly a cultural difference and I for one believe that basic human laws are the same everywhere (or should be) and these laws to protect each other needs to be universal regardless of whether one is a male or female. We are all the same and this separation is ignorance and maybe a power struggle of the sexes. Because who wants to loose their power? No one who has it.

Love, Char

Dear Mallika

I agree with Ed on this.

love Heath.

Peace Be Upon You Mohammad (PBUH)

Peace, Peace, Peace

Peace Be Upon You Mohammad (PBUH)
Please forgive me if I ask you this:
Is Rahmat not a pure Muslim?
Was Banaz a bad woman?
Are her dad, her uncle, her killer
Rightful men of rightful religion?
If a woman must not love her lover,
How can she love her religion?

Note:Moderators and owners of this site, please delete this poem if you think it violates something sacred. I mean no disrespect. Just asking a question.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/11/britain.kurdkilling.reut/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/2hemfc

Wake up, wake up
A song for dimwits

Wake up, wake up
people of the world
why you clamour
so much for God
so much for the holy miracles
rising of dead from graves
blind seeing light
deaf hearing hymns
why do you run after preachers
after fathers, after stupid gurus
after rabbi, after kazi
they cannot find you a God
your God is within you -
don't shut your heads
people of the world
and listen to this
once for all -
there's no God
it's you, you, you
you are your God
your God is within you
wake up, wake up...
http://tinyurl.com/39n3dv

My views on how women came to be suppressed both by religion and by natural evolution.

Biologically, women bear and look after their offspring. Though men do take part in the caring process but it is women who are more caring because they are directly involved in bearing and giving birth to children and so, in the process, develop a certain bonding with the offspring.

As a result women spend more time in caring and breeding of their offspring while the bodily needs (hunger, thirst, shelter) are taken care of by men during that period. Moreover in the game of survival women took a very prominent role because they were the ones who delivered the next generation of their species and the biological goal of life being reproduction the female had to be sheltered from potential dangers that could lead to the cessation of offspring.

So it evolved that men took up the role of sheltering the woman and warding off dangers while the female made sure the child grew healthy and safe. This resulted in men growing harder and stronger to sustain weather and other potential survival dangers while women grew sensitive and delicate so as to understand and care for the offsprings better.

One way evolution made sure the biological goal of life sustained is by placing certain physical pleasure in the process of reproduction. But a direct consequence of it was the ability to anticipate and even feel carnal pleasure in every part of the body. And men being stronger were wont to force a woman into submission. This probably led to the covering of body parts and also to men sheltering their mates more carefully.

And women, atleast a major chunk of them, probably submitted to this possessive sheltering so long as they were with they men they loved.

And what with ego play among men, women were more jealously guarded and slowly it became a convention.

With the onslaught of early civilization, women were rendered the slaves of homes and to make things worse, religion soon sprung its nasty head.

Gods came and spoiled everything for women. Underlying principles for protection and shelter of the child-bearer were replaced by blind conventions. Concept of marriage made a women literally a slave to the man. Morality and Sin further messed with their lives.

With the torch-bearers of later religions being mostly men, they tended to exploit the situation to their advantage.

Today a woman who covers herself completely and slaves for a man is considered moral while anybody who flout the rules is called a bitch! Extramarital relations are common among men but if a married woman is involved in such issues the husband would brutally murder all involved and thus gain sympathy of the society!

Its time these things changed. And they are changed not by mere discussion like the one going on here, but by each of us, men or women, taking that discussion into ourselves, questioning our own conventional living and starting to live up to the very values we talk of! One doesn't need to change the society or make a revolution. Our social contribution is made when we change ourselves. After all we are a part of society and if we are changing ourselves, we have begun to change the world. World is what we perceive! Let us change those very perceptions!

I am refreshed!

x

Hello Mallika and Everyone,

I think man's next great evolutionary jump will be an emotional one. Man has learned to stand and walk upright, physically, without holding on, without the need to grip onto anything in order for him to keep his balance, but emotionally it is a different story, man is only just learning to pull himself up to a standing position for short spurts and then he falls back on his rear. Man has a long way to go before he will be able to stand on his own two feet, as an emotionally balanced species...the emergence of Women as powerful, intelligent, independent beings is an important aspect to man's finding his bearings and strength in this process.

If one looks at all the problems facing our global community one will see that emotional ignorance, emotional neediness, emotional indulgences can be found at the source of all of them...

have a great day everyone, ruth

"Gods came and spoiled everything for women."

I know you were probably using poetic license Will, but actually it was Man's interpretation of God or Gods that came and 'spoiled everything for women'. Actually, it spoiled everything for everyone. It still is. All religion, except for the personal relationship with spirt/God/Gods, is filtered through the Ego of men.

Just a while back I read that a large number of low caste Hindus who were unhappy in their faith willingly converted to Budhism. For a lot of people, there is a lot to be unhappy in Islam. Even so I rarely ever read about anyone leaving that faith because of it. It is hard to believe that one goes through all kind of sufferings and indignity and yet will not give up the faith. Hirsi Ali is one. I am thinking in terms hundreds and perhaps thousands as those untouchable Hindus.
Morris

Just a while back I read that a large number of low caste Hindus who were unhappy in their faith willingly converted to Budhism. For a lot of people, there is a lot to be unhappy in Islam. Even so I rarely ever read about anyone leaving that faith because of it. It is hard to believe that one goes through all kind of sufferings and indignity and yet will not give up the faith. Hirsi Ali is one. I am thinking in terms hundreds and perhaps thousands as those untouchable Hindus.
Morris

Just a while back I read that a large number of low caste Hindus who were unhappy in their faith willingly converted to Budhism. For a lot of people, there is a lot to be unhappy in Islam. Even so I rarely ever read about anyone leaving that faith because of it. It is hard to believe that one goes through all kind of sufferings and indignity and yet will not give up the faith. Hirsi Ali is one. I am thinking in terms hundreds and perhaps thousands as those untouchable Hindus.
Morris

Just a while back I read that a large number of low caste Hindus who were unhappy in their faith willingly converted to Budhism. For a lot of people, there is a lot to be unhappy in Islam. Even so I rarely ever read about anyone leaving that faith because of it. It is hard to believe that one goes through all kind of sufferings and indignity and yet will not give up the faith. Hirsi Ali is one. I am thinking in terms hundreds and perhaps thousands as those untouchable Hindus.
Morris

post # 13 deadmanswill
Very good insights into culture evolution and man/woman dynamics.

It's a joy to be in relationships, but not when burdened with constraints often placed upon us (for reasons you mention).
When Love is present and expressed fully - roles are natural imo,
Artifice ruins many relationships.

The biggest realization to come my way, is to let people be as they are, and work on myself. There is great happiness in loving another as they are.

"we are a part of society and if we are changing ourselves, we have begun to change the world"
that's been my experience, and continues to be.

Thanks for your comments!

love,
~ Kate

Dear Mallika,
I hope your husband and your Dad have a wonderful Father's day, and lots of fun and celebrating with the childen/grandkids. and,
congratulations to your brother and what joy to expect in Oct.
with love,
~ Kate

Our Prophet Muhammed Sallahu Allihe wa sallam said, " the Believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behavior, and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives." He not only said that, He also practised it.

God Says in Holy Quran, chapter 30 verse 21 that "And among His signs is this, that he created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy.

It is very sad that some of the muslim brothers are not following it. For that it will be ignorant to blame Islam.

Man dominating women is not the problem in Islam, It the general problem with most of the men. Our prophet (peace be up on him) gave rights to women when there were no rights for them from all dimensions.

Dear Ahamed,

While your attitude is admirable please see the error of the paradigm that you align yourself with. No human being can "give rights to women". All human beings have these rights inherently. Men and Women are all equal spirits, the body is only the outward manifestation of consciousness. My body may in "female" form but I am not limited to female, male or form at all.

Islam, like Judaism and Christianity fail to produce a New Earth or usher in peace as long as they fail to see that women are not and never have been, beings subject to or less than men.

Dear Ahamed,

While your attitude is admirable please see the error of the paradigm that you align yourself with. No human being can "give rights to women". All human beings have these rights inherently. Men and Women are all equal spirits, the body is only the outward manifestation of consciousness. My body may in "female" form but I am not limited to female, male or form at all.

Islam, like Judaism and Christianity fail to produce a New Earth or usher in peace as long as they fail to see that women are not and never have been, beings subject to or less than men.

Dear Ahamed,

While your attitude is admirable please see the error of the paradigm that you align yourself with. No human being can "give rights to women". All human beings have these rights inherently. Men and Women are all equal spirits, the body is only the outward manifestation of consciousness. My body may in "female" form but I am not limited to female, male or form at all.

Islam, like Judaism and Christianity fail to produce a New Earth or usher in peace as long as they fail to see that women are not and never have been, beings subject to or less than men.

Dear Ahamed,

While your attitude is admirable please see the error of the paradigm that you align yourself with. No human being can "give rights to women". All human beings have these rights inherently. Men and Women are all equal spirits, the body is only the outward manifestation of consciousness. My body may in "female" form but I am not limited to female, male or form at all.

Islam, like Judaism and Christianity fail to produce a New Earth or usher in peace as long as they fail to see that women are not and never have been, beings subject to or less than men.