You know, every time I sit down to read one of your papers on the science/religion thing, I take a deep breath and prepare my self to disagree in some way...but that hasn't happened....you weave your writing up and down and always end on a question, I like that, its fun and seductive.

oh yes, Einstein he is a very rebellious boy!

I really enjoy the intellectual journey and questions you pose on the topic of God and Science. I look forward to reading more on your analysis of Einstien's personal search towards understanding the realtionship of these two subjects.

Thank you!

Albert Einstein:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Deepak Chopra and his now famous look into the future:
--Meditation will become mainstream.
--Aspects of the paranormal and miraculous will be widely credited.
--Healing, both physical and psychological, will become commonplace.
--Prayer will be seen as real and efficacious.
--Manifestation of desires will be talked about as a real phenomenon.
--People will regain a connection to their souls.
--Individuals will find answers inwardly to their deepest spiritual questions. They will believe in their private answers and live accordingly.
--Communities of belief will arise.
--Gurus and other spiritual authorities will wane in influence.
--A wisdom tradition will grow to embrace the great spiritual teachings at the heart of organized religion.
--Faith will no longer be seen as an irrational departure from reason and science.
--Wars will decline as peace becomes a social reality.
--Nature will regain its sacred value.

I had no idea about the letters of Mother Teresa or about her doubts. I have somehow never seen her as a religious person, and it is nice to hear that she was not blindly following rules. To me, her greatness was in her compassion, and that is a totally different thing than religion.

I like this term you use, "secular spirituality". I guess it comes closest to describing what is happening in me and in many around me. I for one was raised an atheist and have never been religious, but it is as if my eyes slowly open up to more than any of these can ever contain. I have a hard time understanding my experiences, explaining them to myself, putting them in a system... you know... what minds do. Like everyone else, I use words to express thought, and words are always fragments. I use concepts to orient myself. But there is a world beyond words, beyond thoughts, and it is alive, and it is who I am. That's "God" to me, even though this word makes me smile. And my mind is just an aspect of this "God", trying so hard to understand and explain itself...to itself. The amazing thing is that it is creating itself in the process.

To me, it is a little funny that (some part of)science is still fighting religion. Science represents the human mind that has transcended religion, and it has already done this a long time ago. The "battle" if there ever was one, is already "won", simply because the human intellect has expanded beyond old beliefs. We don't believe in a guy sitting in the sky and dictating what we should do more than adults believe in Santa Claus. But what certain scientists fail to see is that modern spirituality and religion are not the same thing. Spiritual people of today are seekers thirsty for expansion of their consciousness beyond old boundaries, just like scientists are. In many cases, they ARE scientists, of course. That is because science and spirituality are in no way opposite. The science of today has already gone beyond matter. Spirituality of today has already gone beyond religious nonsense. At best, we can help each other create a new vocabulary to include this new world that is becoming visible to us.

'Trust in God' is the message I got from time to time years ago...

Dear Skeptisch, thank you for posting those great thoughts!

"Individuals will find answers inwardly to their deepest spiritual questions. They will believe in their private answers and live accordingly"

This one has applied and still applies for me :)

I am my own teacher and student but never too old to learn from everything that comes on my path.

Mieke

Deepak,

I was hoping that you would write about Mother Theresa's Dark Night of the Soul that has been recently publicized--I was curious to know what you would think. Glad that you have decided to write about this topic.
I know one thing Einstein said, something like "Either you can see everything as a miracle or nothing as a miracle"--I like that take on things.
I still find it hard to understand why Mother Theresa felt so unloved by God--I had read a lot of her writings and she seemed to have a close relationship with Jesus at least. I thought about it, and don't really totally understand what caused her feelings of doubt and feelings of being unloved by God. Was it just seeing so much suffering? The extreme difficulty of her day to day work? Or, sorry this probably sounds sacrireligious, but could she possibly have craved some type of earthly love? Sorry these questions are probably naive.
Well, anyway, I am looking forward to reading your other thoughts on the matter, Olivia

Check this out.

The Great Dissemination Google’s Einstein Blue Light Special

“Einstein’s greatest experiment was never known to anyone but himself”

“It could not be completed till after his body’s death; upon return.”

“It has been completed”

"There is no travel in the universe"

Click my name for the Youtube video.

Being published this fall, the Great Connector.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ93axcqA9U

i think that, before i believe in anything else, i need to find my belief in myself. for i am the light... the truth.

Here is a better quality version. Click my name.

If anyone can grasp the weirdness of existence itself, then they have caught a glimpse of their Supreme Being both noun and verb.

Dear Deepak,
Do you feel Mother Theresa ‘failed’ in her spiritual practice? Because she had doubts? She seems to have had enough courage and - the honesty it takes - to expose her deepest fears, in letters she wrote to her confidantes.

Haven't you experienced moments of doubt, and not feeling connected to anything or anyone? Or to - God.

She was and continues to be for many, and immense inspiration.

love,
~ Kate

WOW Skept! that list is arousing in sooooooo many ways! love it!

raise your hand if you believe in healing!
YES!!!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!!YES!!!!!

SWEET

Religion-makers "invented" God; to keep them controlled with domestic laws and expectations.

There is no such thing as god!!

The closest to godness we will ever get; is when we come to terms with that fact!

God does not condemn, nor console; because god does not exist.

God was "invented" for religious-control purposes, and to help people with miserable lives, pain, disease, poverty and age--have false hope.

God, is an absentee-landlord, if god exists.

I personally, no longer believe in god, nor religion, nor karma; which is all man-made mental terrorism upon people whom cherish false senses of purpose.

Dear Kate,

I was going to ask the same question, thanks for that.

I haven't read the recent book at Mother Theresa, but I plan to , just read the article in Time Magazine.

It must have been extremely painful and difficult to care for the sickest of the sick on a daily basis, so much suffering, I can't imagine who wouldn't experience doubt about God or Jesus having gone through that.

I believe that Mother Theresa understood God's mind only too well, as God was suffering along side this courageous nun.

Einstein lived in a theorectical world, secular spirituality is a going to be presented in the same dry manner I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,
It is to me - remarkable - that Mother Theresa was willing to honestly write, from the depths of her being, and expose her deepest doubts and fears - and yet, not let these lingering questions and struggle with faith - keep her from serving the poor.

I imagine, would I have stayed so true to my 'calling' as she was called - to serve the poor, the sick, the homeless, the unwanted.

I find no contradiction in the inner life and that which she faced in the 'real' world. She did not live in isolation, did not live in the comforts of a cocooned environment.

I find her amazing.

Love,
~ Kate

"He never showed his face or his presence to Mother Teresa, and therefore she had to confront deep disappointment and (dare we say it?) skepticism about the truth of religion."

Dear Deepak,

According to the Bible (New Testament), wasn't it Jesus himself who uttered in his darkest hour: "My God, my God, why hast Thou abandoned me?".

The letters of Mother Teresa only are very welcome to the Church i guess.

Another quote of the Bible: "He who perseveres till the end, to him is the kingdom of heaven"

As always, the words in the Bible can be explained in many ways and surely the church will use Mother Teresa's words as they see fit.

Another quote of Einstein:

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books---a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."

Mieke

hi Mieke,
a synchronistic moment 1:35 p.m.
:)
~ Kate

I and the Father are One. I and my father never really got round to that. Death made a difference.
Crux.

Deepak states:

“He (God) never showed his face or his presence to Mother Teresa, and therefore she had to confront deep disappointment and (dare we say it?) skepticism about the truth of religion.

As a young man he (Einstein) rejected, on logical grounds, the literal truth of events recounted in the Old Testament.”

Dr. Chopra:

Q: What exactly do you mean by: “the truth of religion?”

Q: Also, what literal truth are you referring to when you say “the literal truth of events recounted in the Old Testament?”

In my view, it is heartening to know that Mother Teresa lived her life as a realist, absent of delusions, and she ought to be applauded {postumously}for that!

Steve: The answer to your question in OT 243 is, yes.

Rgds.

Hi Kate,

It happens quite often lately.... :)

I have read Einsteins quotes here:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/einstein.htm

By taking one or more of them and place them in a certain context, you can obtain a certain effect.

This is what has been done with quotes from the Bible many times too and i do it also.
And this is what will happen with Mother Teresa's letters too.

But the underlying definite plan, that mysterious order, that's what counts as far as i am concerned.

Love, Mieke

Kate and Ambasteve

To me, Mother Teresa's love, compassion and purity of motive is so far above most of us, I feel she is the closest thing to a saint the modern world has seen.

It seems even her questioning was coming from purity of motive. Her efforts should be celebrated.

Love
bonnie

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

Here's a good article that apparently a Freemason wrote, i.e., Albert Einstein was a Freemason ...

http://www.rense.com/general29/free.htm

Love, Char

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Freemasonry CA, USA lodge and it still appears that one must be a male to join. And somehow I got to this Latter Day Saints website and my mouse's arrow on the screen slipped down to the 'only men can be priest,' so that not a good group to join either ... with me being female and all, assuming I wanted to join a group or follow one. However, there is a lot of good information out there on all the different religions, societies, and groups to where I suppose one could get a just a little overwhelmed.

BTW: I still believe in a God and the Masters and the Sages .... I just don't know exactly what God is anymore, same as Mother Teresa, I suppose???

Does any know if there is a website with this newly release information on what the Catholic Church release on Mother Teresa? That church sure is releasing a lot lately and from Sylvia's book on Secret Societies, there are many more hidden documents with the vaults of the Catholic Church.

Love, Char

I think exploring what made Mother Theresa continue her mission with her internal and external suffering and anguish transcends theory, and would connect with many here.

Ron, thanks for answering my questions, since you have read the Old Testament, please recommend a Sagan starter for me.

Thanks,

Steve

James Hutton believed that the Bible did contain answers to the questions of life on earth and, indeed, set out to prove that the universe was (vastly) older than 6,000 years as prescribed by the Bible.

Flying in the face of convention and orthodoxy, Hutton, a Scottish farmer and scholar, provided the first rigorous scientific theory of the earth. His findings on the age of the earth were to have an ordinate influence on later scholars, particularly Darwin.

Correction, first line, post 27: should read: did not...!

I have said here many times that religion and spirituality are two different things to me.
I don't believe in "God". I believe that spirituality is completely human.
Our energy.
God could be considered the accumulation of all of our energy. A collective consciouness. From people past and present. The more people, the stronger it gets.
Some day it could take on it's own consciousness.
Maybe this has happened on some other planet with a race of people millions or billions of years older than ours and we can sense it here. Yo, maybe.

But for me here and now there is nothing that proves or disproves the existance of a "God". I just choose not to believe, he still wont show his face to me. You know he/she/it whatever just is either to arrogant and superior or dosen't have the balls to look into my eyes, face to face.

Yo God I'm still waitin'.

I'm with North on the absentee father thing. You just wait til Jesus comes home mister. Well she said absentee landlord. Same difference.

For me the work of healing our planet is up to us. The hungry need to be fed, the sick healed and the wounded comforted. We can use whatever belief system we choose to do this whether religion, science or just the compassion of our hearts but so far God has just sat up in the clouds and not participated. It is all done from our humanity. Which is more than enough to do the job.

I have much compassion and hope for our world without a belief in God so for me God is not neccessary.

peace comes from humanity

derek

Oh and Spirit tells me that I am god, as well as all the other saints. So that makes one wonder, at least for me. If I am god, there we are all god and just maybe what God is can only be explained by each of us in our god-ness form. I am beginning to think every thing thinks it is a god, how else could a rock be a rock if it were not a god? I still believe in the One Almighty God, but He (male for me) seems to be very humble in my opinion and does not mind sharing His glory with others. I think God has a plan, as each of us follow that specific plan for us, since God has a plan for all. For me God, is loving and good and that's where I am led, i.e., follow. There is a goodness in the Universe, as well as a great love and it is powerful and rules by meekness. So this is what I think and feel today....

Love, Char

For Steve:

"The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left, right and (center). You can't all be correct! And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical... [Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 162. ]"

Anytime someone uses a famous deceased person to make a point there is a good chance it may be a straw man argument. It is the reader’s responsibility to be aware of that.

“A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted”.

And a dead person can’t refute anything!

Skep: how true, indeed!

Rgds.

P.S.: Anyone who believes that the universe is 6,000 yrs. old is a moron!

Where is all this stuff coming from that the Bible says mankind (male/female) was created 5 to 6 K years ago, as I don't remember reading that and I have read it 4 times, including 3 different versions. I just cannot seem to relate to that and how it has any bearing on the existence of a Creator. Anyway, this is to assume that one believes in the literal translations of the Bible, as I think there are many secrets hidden within the Bible, such as 1 day is either 1000 if night is included or 2000 if day is a day and a night are separate. So 6 days could mean 6000 years or 12,000 years with odd of rest which is another 1000 or 2000 to bring creation possibly 14,000 years and then God apparently waited before He woke up Adam with the breath of Spirit and tons of other little things. Plus, what if the recording was written down wrong and lots of other stuff, as man wrote the books in the Bible. So whatever scientists say that the earliest man existed, then that's what we have to work with, until a newer date is found, as one tries to understand the story of creation. So I am a believer, but I don't understand a lot of stuff as I pray to God, asking for the truth.

Love, Char

Maybe Mother Theresa felt unloved because she just gave and gave to others expecting nothing in return but maybe at the end of the day she wished that she did have someone demonstrating love for her. She wanted God to be the one to demonstrate that love but He seemed absent. I know she had deep admiration for her own parents' marriage and love for each other. Maybe it was hard for her to follow her calling as a nun because maybe she wanted to feel loved, maybe it was difficult to live such an ascetic life. Maybe she lived a lonely life and was human and honest enough to admit it. Sorry if this is sacrireligious. Olivia

Plus it was a while before God created female and later we find that mankind lived to about 900 years and mankind (i.e., Adam as well as Eve) could have lived for thousands of years before death, so conceptually one would not find a body of a human even near the creation date and I am sure many other etcs. to confuse the issue. We must believe in our hearts, which is where God lives and what is found within is God and that's about all we are going to get as humans as far as I can tell (but apparently Adam and Eve, as well as their sons and Moses saw the God Almighty according to the Bible and just maybe others?), other than the assistance of Holy Angels or the Ancients. There is so much that we do not know to to say that something does not exist is ignorance on our part. The Bible says, "Seek and you shall find." ~ Luke 11:9 and I believe that this is a true state.

Love, Char

I think Mother Teresa said something to the affect, when I want to hug Jesus, I hug another. I think when one loves God with all their heart, soul, and mind, (the 1st law), then God embraces them, but steps away so that they can love God back by loving others (the 2nd law), as God loved the one that loved God with all their heart, mind, body, soul, spirit. So as Jesus Christ shared these 2 laws as being the greatest commandments, when we want to return God, we are loving God by loving another as this is the way of a humble God. But I believe first God loves us and in God loving us, we respond by loving Him and when we surrender to God's love and give all of ourself to God and God returns that love within out heart to give to another. Well .... that's hard to explain as it appears to be one big circle that never ends.

Love, Char

I think it would be great to get our hands on all the religious documents of the Catholics, as well as what the Jews might have in vaults. And just think about all the other documents that are hidden and forgotten, even though we are finding some of them, there must be ton! I guess when we are ready, they will surface. Personally, I do not think anyone has a right to tell another that their God does not exist, including myself. I think it's important for ever one to try and understand another person's God and I guess one could take what applies and leave the rest behind for another time. As a Christian I will never ever give up my faith in God Jehovah or Jesus Christ, however, I will continue to seek the truth and to understand my God that I can only find within my heart.

And since we are talking about the Christian God (i.e., Jews, Muslim, Islam, Wiccans, etc - any religion that has these characters or is in opposition to the good and evil entities that resemble this religion), I don't think there is such a creature as Satan, as I think the term refers to just what it says, "Adversary" and anyone could fit that mode at any given time, whatever that might mean to be an adversary.

Humm....I guess somehow this subject got me going - sorry! But I am attempting to also formulate my own theories, so that's probably why I heard within the wind the other day, "Be careful what you say about God," as one could really say anything and make it sound like a fact with enough of words. So the Bible and other relgions say that the "Kingdom is within or God is within the heart," and that why I think that's the only place we will find God - at least for the time being.

Love, Char

secular

1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal b : not overtly or specifically religious c : not ecclesiastical or clerical

2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation

3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I'd like to retrace Einstein's lifelong spiritual path because what he was searching for -- and never quite found -- was secular spirituality, and in many ways that is our best hope today. Instead of falling back on traditional religion, which has been shattered by science and the horrors of the twentieth century, or erasing spirituality in favor of stark materialism, secular spirituality looks at the whole of life in a different way. God and reason are allowed not simply to co-exist but to fulfill a single vision. This vision is rooted in consciousness. Either we think like God or he thinks like us. If neither is true, there cannot be a connection between us. Einstein's ultimate goal, he said, was to understand God's mind, and to do that, the human mind must be explained first. After all, our minds are the filter through which we perceive reality, and if that filter is distorted and misunderstood, there's no possibility of grasping God's mind." ~ Deepak

Yes, I like this concept of Deepak's, now that I have re-read it to try and understand what he is communicating. The Freemasons kind of believe like this from what little that I have read on them, i.e., let all worship their God as they desire, as we come together in unity to solve world issues. However, I am noticing there are many people who appear not to like this concept as they fear an united one world, or maybe no one wants to give up power, as we would all share in all things. So I think the fear must be world domination if under ONE versus world peace and freedom for all, i.e., like it can go bad if greed and the ego takes over ... I guess? So maybe we are not ready for unity until we all start thinking peace and unity, as well as equality for all??? .... Just thinking out loud.

Love, Char

PS: No one trust the other - the reflection within the mirror. So fear seems to abound in the concept of unity, even though true unity can only be accomplished in love.

As long as there are people who think that humans once lived to be 800/900 yrs. old, fairytales will continue to thrive and hold intrigue in our culture!

Is there any med student in the audience?

Do you seriously think it was biologically possible for the heart to have pumped blood through the human anatomy for nearly a thousand years without fail? If you do, you are probably in the wrong profession!

With the discovery of antibiotics and other medical advances in recent times, we are now able to prolong lifespan by a 100% or more!

Not long ago, our lifespan was in the proximity of 25 yrs., then 40, and now what, around 80? How do you compute our antecedents to have reached 900 yrs or beyond? In ancient times, people mistook each lunar cycle to be the equivalent of one solar year, which is why the fallacious pronouncement of humans having lived to 900 yrs and more arose.

Although a truism, knowledge is a cure for pervasive ignorance!

BPR, you keep doing it, giving us the big picture that is.

In order to reject genetics and the biological and fossil evidence supporting evolution one must be a bit of a retard, or have fact overriding faith of the dangerous kind, the Bush kind.

lema sabachtani?

The way you describe Einstein's spirituality is similar to mine. A God that manifests as a brilliant, delicate, beautiful existence of exquisite life-and-death processes and evolutionary blossomings is interesting to me.

A god that is simply a projection of authoritarian social conditioning is not.

To me, Mother Theresa lived a life of the higher quality of the human being... compassionate! Mother Theresa emmulated what few humans in history have done--sacrificed her own life, to save and give love, to abandoned children. IF most humans could live even a minute fraction of her compassion for humans; there would be no poverty, hate, war or loneliness on this planet.

Tu quoque, filii mi?

Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est.

A lot of great reading here, can you all hear the music?

And Ron... friend... I'm not trying to oppose you in any way... but please look at it. Can you see it? Can it be that living for 80 whole years was as impossible a thought to folks not so long ago, when life was limited to 25... as the thought of 900 years is to you now?

Why impossible? A heart is not a lump of flesh that gets worn out when used... it is made of intelligent cells that renew themselves all the time... cells that also know how to reverse the process and "kill" themselves so that new cells can appear, and continue life. When the creation phase is predominant and not disturbed, we continue to live, and live healthily. When the process of destruction takes over, the heart gets weaker and finally the organism dies... to make room for new organisms. It is a beautiful process, natural and very flexible. If the process is harmonious and serves the best interests of the whole organism (universe), then life span can be practically unlimited. But why would we want it so?

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.....

Dear AC,

With all due respect, your argument is silly! You obviously have a limited understanding of human biology!

May you enjoy the rest of the day wherever you may be today!

Rgds.

I still love Kurt Vonnegut's description of God and man.

God made mud to sit up
Mud sat up, looked around and asked
"What is the purpose?"
God asked, "Must there be a purpose?"
Mud said "Yes."
God said, "Well then, I will leave you to think about it."
God then went away.

Dear Ron, you obviously have a limited understanding of Aurora!

That's not silly, but it is a shame.

To many here faith is still a virtue and may always be one.

But could we not also say this about faith:
It is belief without evidence and often even in spite of evidence to the contrary. It is fiction over fact and evidence. It is a rejection of reality and a rejection of Einstein’s god who shows herself in what really exists. To choose faith over education and knowledge is to accept ignorance.

Edmund C says: “Dear Ron, you obviously have a limited understanding of Aurora! That's not silly, but it is a shame.”

Isn’t Aurora the perfect person to illustrate what faith can do to a mind and brain?
She seems to belief that she lives in a place where different universal laws apply?

Aurora:
“Any person can find his or her capacity to do remote viewing, levitate, bend spoons and materialize things out of thin air. It is no more peculiar than learning to whistle.”

Love that quote Bonnie! LMAO! never, never lose you sense of humor, and thats funny!

No matter what you believe there is work to be done.
Whether there is a god or not there are people in pain.
And so if God is away to let us think, I think I'll spend the time while he is away doing something. I've been thinking long enough.

I spent time with some healers this weekend, of different beliefs.
But they all had one thing in common, compassion for those in pain whatever kind of pain. There was no discussion of belief systems. Those who believed in God brought God along and those who didn't, didn't. You could not tell the difference between the two.

Mother Theresa brought along whatever she believed which seemed to be second to her compassion.

We are all free to bring our beliefs along, as long as they don't get in the way of our compassion for our brothers and sisters who are in pain.

I don't believe in a supernatural God, this does not diminish my love for those who need it. My reverent irreverence does not diminish my compassion when I see someone in pain. All that I am or believe dissolves when I touch someone in need of healing.
All these wonderful and at times frustrating discusions here dissolve when compassion arises.

so a big Yo to Mother Theresa who's compassion transended her doubts

derek

Yo Skeptsch I appreciate your desire for truth and accountability.
You add grounding to the mix.

There's a red wire, a black wire and a ground wire. Hook them all up and you can turn on the light.

Unlike Deepak, I didn't assume that Mother Theresa had concluded that religion was a myth or a fantasy. I decided just the opposite.

She said that she learned to "love the darkness", which is absolutely not the same thing.

She was grappling with separation:

"Listen to the story told by the reed,
of being separated.

"Since I was cut from the reedbed,
I have made this crying sound.

Anyone apart from someone he loves
understands what I say.

Anyone pulled from a source
longs to go back.

At any gathering I am there,
mingling in the laughing and grieving,

a friend to each, but few
will hear the secrets hidden

within the notes. No ears for that.
Body flowing out of spirit,

spirit up from body: no concealing
that mixing. But it's not given us

to see the soul. The reed flute
is fire, not wind. Be that empty."

Hear the love fire tangled
in the reed notes, as bewilderment

melts into wine. The reed is a friend
to all who want the fabric torn

and drawn away. The reed is hurt
and salve combining. Intimacy

and longing for intimacy, one
song. A disastrous surrender

and a fine love, together. The one
who secretly hears this is senseless.

A tongue has one customer, the ear.
A sugarcane flute has such effect

because it was able to make sugar
in the reedbed. The sound it makes

is for everyone. Days full of wanting,
let them go by without worrying

that they do. Stay where you are
inside such a pure, hollow note.

Every thirst gets satisfied except
that of these fish, the mystics,

who swim a vast ocean of grace
still somehow longing for it!

No one lives in that without
being nourished every day.

But if someone doesn't want to hear
the song of the reed flute,

it's best to cut conversation
short, say good-bye, and leave."

And I think Deepak knows much better since he too knows this poem well.

The "God" of Einstein:

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflections_volume_1/torrance.htm

Dear Derek,

I do agree with you but also with Ron and Skeptisch :)

The alternating current of both truths that we have inside and will have to reconcile. And then we arrive at mud again :)

Thanks Bonnie!

Peace, Mieke

In India, there's a word for "belief pending evidence", called sraddha. The attached piece might help in elaborating it (and other aspects of faith, beliefs, supporting arguments vs proving arguments, etc).

http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf/Sraddha.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7tpz3NAr6k

MUD still rocks on :)

Mieke

Mieke
I can't believe I have never seen MUD. Wow!?!?

Eveyone has they're part and everyone is right. I agree with everything everyone has said here.
Balance requires equal amounts of everything.
And in the end it is all mud. But until the we dance to MUD.

peace and dancing

derek

or....until then........we dance.........

Yo Bonnie

peace and love

derek

Let's all dance!

That was fun Mieke!

Great fun, i danced along :)

Did you see the particles and pixels mix in that movie?

Today I read in a paper here that some artist got the luminant idea to make a stained glass window in a church with enlarged pixels, where the light shines through :)

Synchronicity!!

Mieke

Hi Everyone,
I just read this article, and it seems to tie into the discussion here
:)
love,
~ Kate

from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/07/19/aging/index.html?iref=newssearch

SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters)

-- Fancy living another 100 years or more? Some experts said on Saturday that scientific advances will one day enable humans to last decades beyond what is now seen as the natural limit of the human life span.

“There is a dramatic and intensive push so that people can live from 120 to 180 years,” he(Donald Louria) said. Some have suggested that there is no limit and that people could live to 200 or 300 or 500 years.”

“Outside the conference, many scientists who specialize in aging are skeptical of such claims and say the human body is just not designed to last past about 120 years. Even with healthier lifestyles and less disease, they say failure of the brain and other organs will eventually condemn all humans.”

“These people spout off as though a large part of the population is going to be able to do something like this. It’s just way beyond reality,” said Thomas Perls, who leads the New England Centenarian Study, the largest such analysis of the oldest of the old. “It’s just pure science fiction.”

“We are fast approaching what our bodies are capable of achieving,” he said in a telephone interview. “To get even the average person to be 100 or to get them to 180 is like trying to get a space shuttle to Pluto.”

“It’s certainly unlikely any time in the near future,” he said in an interview. “Sure there is a possibility but there is no data currently available to suggest ways that would happen.”

Scientists also differ on what kind of life the super aged might live.

"It remains to be seen if you pass the threshold of say 120, you know; could you be healthy enough to have good quality of life?" said Leonard Poon, director of the University of Georgia Gerontology Center. "Currently people who could get to that point are not in good health at all."

Poon, who leads a study of more than 150 centenarians in Georgia, cited the case of Jeanne Louise Calment of France, the oldest person on record who died at age 122 in 1997.

"At 122 she was fairly debilitated. I visited her when she was 119 in France and at that time she was pretty much blind and having very much difficulty hearing," he said.

yas tv iha vai nija-vwda-pathad anapady apagatah pakhandam copagatas tam asi-patravanam pravesya kasaya praharanti tatra hasav itas tato dhavamana ubhayato dharais tala-vanasi-patrais chidyamana-sarvango ha hato smiti paramaya vedanaya murcchitah pade pade nipatati sva-dharmaha pakhandanugatam phalam bhunkte

Skep says of Aurora:-
"She seems to belief that she lives in a place where different universal laws apply?"

I think she has found the twist in those universal laws. She can take your slights and see them as a compliment or should I spell it complement?

When we limit ourselves, ignorance swims in darkness and is unable to see how God can do all things as well as perceiving the greatness of a God who is infinite and eternal.

If one could join God in unity, they could fly in this physical form that mankind possesses today and right now. One must believe that all things are possible, in order to rise above the night. Mankind could travel in a blink of an eye as well as walk thru walls now. Jesus did this in his time, over 2000 years ago and said that we could do all that he could do and even more and greater things than he did. Can one truly believe that someone is not accomplishing these feats today? I've heard that the Tibetan Monks fly, as well as yogas being able to raise up in the air from a sitting position. There is more, but I will spare the skeptics more growing pain.

Love, Char

"science fiction" is, flying in a plane, driving a automobile, discovering fire, landing on the moon, and living forever, in love

What is love anyway?

energy, as it takes form, the butterflies, the rivers, you and me, the earth the universe...

God has not one name,
and all names are he

There are specific laws for certain levels, i.e., the laws at a lower level do not apply to the higher levels, which has it's own set of laws.

This is not done out of cruelty, but for protection to preserve those at whatever level that they may be at.

For example, a baby cannot cook on the stove and will never be able to cook until it grows and develops. The baby is told that the stove is hot as well as not to touch it and that action is bad by a parent. When the baby becomes a toddler, it might be allowed to boil eggs from a distance and when a teen, to actually make something with supervision. As an adult, one can cook a full meal on the stove and it is viewed as good and not bad.

Love, Char

Hi Kate,

Thanks for the article but to tell you the truth, i do not fancy this at all.

But as long as I am around i will want to take care of myself and to not become dependent in the way the elder people at this moment are from healthcare etc.

I do not know if i have a choice at all in this, i only know our generation is a large one and a lot of us want to stay on ourselves as long as we can and preferably healthy and being able to move around.

As far as I am concerned, after more than 30 years of Yoga up till now this goes just by itself :)

And yes, scientists have discovered that the brain does rewire itself all the time.

I even have had an experience with our first grandson who did not want to breathe by himself when he was born. He suffered from a few brain infarcts during the first days of his life and he was given artificial respiration. The infarcts vanished by themselves after he was able to breathe by himself.

Of course he stayed under observation the first two years, but he suffered no damage of it whatsoever and is a healthy young boy now of more than 4 years already.

Well, chewing gum seems to be a good way to keep your brain active :)

Love, Mieke

And because of these laws, I presume the Catholic Church makes the decision on what to hold and what to release to the general population, even though I think they hold too much for too long. However, I can understand why, because wants to be responsible for the destruction of another? One would not give a baby meat when it can only digest milk, but one would wean the baby and teach it at the most appropriate time. Just some of my thoughts from last night as I pondered upon this post, as well as some of the comments.

Love, Char

Dear Mieke,
Chewing gum is great - and so are you!

For me, it's really fun to be able to grow and develop - and be able to experience movement, and play (I love tennis, and of course, walking in nature) and - using my brain power to participate in discussions, like this :)

love,
~ Kate

BTW: I am not saying I am at this high level, but there seems to be those who are, such as Deepak (maybe?, as I wouldn't really know) and a few posters on this board. However, I have experienced some things, but I cannot stay in that state. So one might say, I have glimpsed of what is behind the veil and anyone who can see beyond the veil, I tend to try and understand them or perceive what they see thru their eyes, if I can. Most of the time, I don't think we can bare it. Plus, we do create a lot of stuff that interferes with our own growth, which could be classified as pure fantasy, i.e., flying would only be amazing to us and not to other entities, as what is not seen is most precious, such as the love and compassion found within the heart.

Love, Char

I think we should play and experiment with the idea of God / All pervasive intelligence / everything is connected.

We should put the principles to the test and apply them, see what fruit it bears collectively.

Let’s see if God can manifest the following.

1. Let us manifest some unusual phenomena around a world capitol, Washington DC would be good, and get everyone's attention maybe some strange lights in the skies.

2. Some new natural phenomena that leaves the scientists scratching their heads. Something that captures the world’s attention. An exceptional scientific discovery would be good.

3. A strange computer glitch that affects the global stock exchanges.

We should also have a project.

LET’S TAKE OVER THE PLANET!

I have been playing with this idea for a couple decades, and I am serious. If we are God or if there is a God, then surely we have power to take control from the forces of Ego and the egoic mind, and change the systems and correct all the imbalances.

Embrace & Transform

.m.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_(James_Bond)

Whenever a thought such as "This person is a Neanderthal or silly.", arises, I like to consider Marhasi's inquiry, "For whom has this thought arisen?"

The answer is always "For me." And, "Who Am I?"
"I am that."

The energy within me is the same as the energy in that one, watching this play of consciousness as being perfect for what it is."

It is all energy.

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

It is hard to imagine secular spirituality taking hold when you see the throngs of Muslims making their way to Mecca...or seeing the throngs of people gathering each Sunday and Holy day to see the Pope, and to kiss his ring or be blessed my him, also, the throngs rocking back and forth at the Wailing Wall....millions upon millions revere their "religious version of a god," and really, I think that these types of experssions are too connected to their emotional being...god is emotional not intellectual for the majority of worshipers.

Emotionally, humankind, indulges and our religious beliefs and needs are a symptom of that indulgence...We will not give up the bankie...no matter if it kills us.

They say that today Islam is the fastest growing religion, and, truly, this boggles me..why? What is drawing people to this religion?
Really, from what little I know of it, it sounds as unappealing as any other, even, more so, for women, so what gives?

I think man is really at a crossroads as far as man's emotional evolution is concerned. Man needs to grow, emotionally, and I think the circumstances that are emerging politically are going to help that evolution in some way...Man has got some serious growing to do and our religious beliefs are going to be effected by this and ultimately they are going to be put in their rightful place, the background, not the foreground of our concerns...

ponderings, ruth

Tammy is correct based on historical precedence Science Fiction becomes reality, the impossible eventually becomes possible in our minds and in the world around us.

Which means all we need to do to create a designer reality is to simply make it up and introduce the idea and watch it manifest.

We have these age old dysfunctional fictions that people are still entertaining and we need to clear them from our minds. If we don't we will be forced to through natural means.

It is only in uncertainty that we find that anything is possible. When we are so sure of something we miss out on infinite possibilities.

I am going through a very painful and stressful time. And as hard as it is to live not knowing what might happen, I know that I can detach and be with the uncertainty. Once I'm certain of something, then that is all there is. But by leaving the door labeled "uncertainty" open, anything truly is possible.

I have read the book about Einstein, as well as some of the journal of Mother Teresa. It seems to me that their doubts left them open to new possibilities. I'm grateful that neither gave up...

Peace and Love, Melissa

Can't resist to give the link to the news of the Cologne cathedral in Germany that received a new stained glass window covered with pieces of enlarged pixels.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,502271,00.html

When you click on the photo library you receive an enlarged picture of this.

To me this is computer art in a Cathedral :)

Artscience so to say :)

Another sign of secular spirituality?
Algorythmic improvisation...

And the Light triumphs.

Mieke

It is unfathomable that, in the 21st century, millions continue to believe humans once lived on the earth to be 1,000 years or more! Life spans have steadily increased over time; not declined. Consequently, by natural progression, people should have continued to live at the same average life spans today, right? Obviously, that is not the case. If you are one of those to entertain such fallacies, how, may I ask, have we regressed from 1,000 to 100 years in life expectancy?

There is no evidence anywhere that anyone has ever lived to 150 years or beyond. Jeanne Calment, a French woman, was the oldest documented human. She lived to be 122 years and 164 days. She died in 1997. Certainly, many would love to live that long, but it is not currently possible. As we continue to make medical and technological progress, we may be able to prolong life spans, but certainly not to a millennium or millennia. We shall leave that thought to dreamers and wishful thinkers!

just a little change of subject

hypocrisy. Senator Craig, another Republican,"thou art holy family man, gay basher" Clinton basher, gets caught literally trying to pull his pants down in public..gee, and they replayed an interview with him talking about Bill Clinton's affair, and, boy, was he scary..such a twinkle of delight he had, in his eyes, bad-mouthing Bill Clinton...talk about dysfunctional individuals..how about our whole House and Senate..maybe we should bring the troops home and send all of our Government to therapy...primal, would be best in this case...God, what a bunch of sad sacks we have in our political parties...I guess they are just the reflection of us though...gee, what a bunch of sad sacks we the American people are. We don't know what sex we are...and, boy, that little bit of an organ can cause a huge peck of trouble if you let it get the better of you! But as I said before...what happens when trouble comes a calling for these men? that is right...it is time to bring out the wifey..

sorry for the change of subject..but it kinda goes with the science, god and religion post in a "republican party sort of way."

The Republican's new slogan.."Forgive us fellow Americans for we do sin."

I don't know...I just watched Mitt Romney being interviewed about the Senator Craig fiasco, Craig WAS a big supporter of Romney but Romney is puttin a stop to that fast...Romeny when asked about the Craig thing, immediately, faster than the speed of light..responded by mentioning Bill Clintons name and affair and completely ignoring mentioning Craig...now, that is one Mormon Repubican Presidential candidate who can think incredibly fast on his feet...he didn't miss a beat...ever the smooth talking politician..I wonder how many votes it will secure for him?

enough, again, sorry, the Republicans made me do it..I want a lawyer before I plead...

ruth

Yo Mieke
The stained glass is way too cool.
An amazing mix of old and new.
Gothic meets digital.
Yay for the church that allowed this mix.

derek

ps. no matter how long we live we only right now.

Meike

I didn't watch the video earlier---I was dancing :) Nice window.

derek

yo! don't remember this exact quote by Mother Teresa but was something like ".....joy, love, compassion. The fruit of these three is peace."

peace dancing
bonnie

Yay for Mother Teresa
I'm sure you got close enough Bonnie.

Someday the fruit will ripen and we shall all eat of it's sweetness until we are full.

juicy peace

derek

Hi Derek,
thank you for your # 55

and Dana Shields,
for # 57

And everyone here - this is an awesome discussion!

Hi Deepak,
There are some great questions within this thread.
love,
~ Kate

Dear Mieke: Cool windows! Huge cathedral!
How much did they spend to get the place all spoofed up?
That BUILDING is worth a fortune. It must be nice...

Will a secular religion need a building such as this?
Well, a secular spirituality gathering has to get together someplace.
Atheists have clubs where they all meet, don't they?
Humanists are a social people.

Families who argue together, stay together.

Is that better? Better than using the word 'pray'?

Which one is most generally true?

Would you rather hold hands in a circle or throw darts at each other?

Is spirituality a socially conditioned response?
Or is it a humanist disguised as a hermit in a cave?

Does spirituality represent the God 'within' over a God 'out there'?

Is it both? One or the other? Neither? Hmmm....

Words, words, words, words, words, words, etc.

Mother Theresa has re-written The Book Of Acts.

Well, I have been off looking for something to do and ran out of stuff that interest me. For some reason, I am bored to death and my horoscope says that today is a down day with the full-moon in my house ... the blahs big time! Well until I came back here and read Ruth's two posts above, as I laugh for the first time today, even though I have no energy.

BTW: I read that stuff on Craig as it's a headliner and it was kind of sad. I think there is all this sick stuff in the brain or maybe that's the mind? Anyway, some people think being gay is okay, but I do not and here is why, not that it matters. We were born into these bodies and agreed to be either female or male in this specific life, but we cannot wait until the next, so we confuse the natural process as we mix it all up for us. I don't think it is evil or anything, but it's just that two females or two males just don't fit well together. They were not made for each other physically, which is why they cannot have a baby between themselves. This I believe is one of the natural laws at our level and we cannot really cross the line completely on this. Even the sex change ops is a weak way to escape this short time we have as one or the other sex. I just don't get it. And yes, I know we can love all, but I just think this is going too far.

Yes, I got off on the subject as well as this God subject has gotten boring.

Oh BTW: According to the Bible, the reason mankind's life of 900 years was shorted was due to evil, i.e, opposite of God. I personally think Aurora explained it best, so I did not respond. I think our mind can do anything and as a whole we can choose to live as long as we want or as short as we want and the body does what we tell it. For whatever reason, we have decided to only live about 80 years in life span. Maybe that's because we like the fresh start and the quick change, but now we doing more of it in one life, as one can seem as many in 80 years.

The book by Rhonda Byrne, "The Secret" is great in explaining the power of thought as we create and I think this book explains very well what we are doing as gods. The key appears to be aware of this process, as the journey can then be fun vs. painful and dreadful.

Regardless - I still have incredible blahs that hit me at 3:36 p.m. (PDT) and when I read my horoscope, it said about 3:32 p.m. or something like that, I would feel this way. So it makes one wonder if that is destiny that I have no control over at this level - for how can I change and move the stars/planets around, which is for the GOD as a whole ... I suppose, as that makes sense. But in this "The Secret" book, I have agreed to it and even if I am not fully aware, my soul is aware. I am only on the 2nd chapter of "The Secret," so maybe it has great insights further along to explain this. Anyway, I would highly recommend this book as it explains the power of attraction and how we can get anything we want, as it shows us how. Plus, it's a fun book that is positive.

Love, Char

I tried that website twice, but it did not work for me, so I thought it was a joke as the it was "blank," and I tried it several times. Nice to know there is a window there.....

PS: I am bored because I am stuck at a chair at work and I cannot read a book or anything and looking at the PC all day bothers my eyes, i.e., if I was elsewhere I would not be bored. And I am trying to work on attracting my desires, so this must be it or I am not doing it right by my words here. I could scream .... as I feel like I am in prison right now!!!!

Anyway, according to "The Secret" book, the more I say BORING, the more I create it.

hey there Char,
wish you could skip out right now, and take a walk with me, as that's what I am just about to do!
Would that be in your horoscope?
whoa, as Diablo would say :)
love,
~ Kate

Hi Keith,
# 88
you have the most amazing way with words ;)
~ Kate

Okay, I decide to see if I could find the Mother Teresa's letters on the internet and it appears they are in a book either recently released or soon to be.

On this website http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?
articleid=1019490
I can see what all the fuss is about.

I wonder about all that too in that one's darkness must be equal to their light if there is such a thing as balance. But then there are all these people who claim to be pure light with no darkness. I wonder if that is true? Even though it is claimed that Jesus was perfect, according to the Bible, he appeared to have had to deal with what we all have to deal with and stated that he overcame by always praying. Like it makes one wonder about a lot of stuff and surely makes Jesus more of a brother. I believe all the other stuff that Jesus did to and believe that he is the only son as there can only be ONE and we are that one, so this is why I don't think anyone can really condemn the Bible, but rise above what it really means. Yes, I struggle with the Bible every day and in pray, I asked about the 900 year old stuff as I can see the points raised here, which was good as it cause me to think. The answer I got was, "Read the Bible continually and I will help you understand." I wish I knew and had the answers, but I don't just like most of us here, I would presume as we seek to know the truth. There are just too many pieces missing in the puzzle.

Anyway, I will do some more internet searches as it removed that current state out of my vocabulary and I have only one more hour to fill up with this stuff - then I can go home!

Love, Char

Ruth - When I read about your walk, I could feel it and that was good enough. Hey, thanks for the walk as the breeze cleared away some more negative energy. Opps...I was not suppose to say anything negative. Shame on me! Love, Char

"« Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear, » she wrote the Rev. Michael van der Peet in September 1979."

http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?breve417

This tells me that she became the Jesus that she loved. Because I do remember in the beginning of her journey, she said something to the effect that she heard Jesus calling her to do this work. And now she does not here, because she is in union ... just a thought. I haven't read a lot on her, but a little when I first heard about her on the chopra.com site as some people seem to really like her.

Love, Char

And just maybe Mother Teresa slipped into the darkness as we all do and even Jesus on the cross asked why God had abandoned him according to the Bible. Who knows, but I like even more now as she seems most human.

Love, Char

Wow ... heavy! I found this one letter, so I will share it, as I need to finish up a little new project here at work.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/WN/teresa_letters2_070824.pdf

Well ... in re-reading ALL of Deepak's post again for the second time, it's hard for me to figure out where he stands or what his beliefs are, if there are any? It was like reading the words of 2 or 4 or more people .... so I shall look forward to see what Deepak says next.

Love, Char

If Mother Theresa questioned her path; it must have been because, she did not see much fruit from her selfless labours. The world did not envelope her intentions; and she eventually became a religious pawn...

All across the globe, corruption, greed and crime; riddle our political arenas; and I shudder to think/feel, things will only worsen. The richer get greedier and hungrier for more wealth; preying and capitalizing on the weak and poor; while the impoverished die from ignorance...so they can live in giant mansions, waste energy, space and money.

IF the churches and religions cared so much for the poor, sick, dying and hungry; they would sell their gold goblets, jewel-encrusted "shrines" and feed them.

The Catholic church is the most wealthy, corrupt and powerful entity on this planet.. the most rich; and yet, they preach for the poorest, to dig into their pockets to give to the poorer; while the heirlooms; which God and Jesus abdicated...shine like trophies.

This may sound awful, but I kind of feel sad that Mother Theresa seemed to doubt God. It makes me feel, the more I think about it, like maybe she never really did believe in God but just fooled herself. I know that sounds presposterous as she was a living Saint, but still I don't get how she could feel so distant from God for 50 years if she had ever really felt close to Him. Intellectually I am not really able to understand that.
It also makes me sad how atheists seem to be jumping all over this as a reason to "prove" their case against God's existence.
It's all kind of sad. It makes me feel like the stuff Mother Theresa wrote about she didn't really believe.
Oh well, maybe she's not really a saint. Obviously an amazing, fascinating selfless human, but I don't get why she had such spiritual problems.
But I guess this is off topic from the thread, just figured I'd share.

He has long, flowing gray hair and a bushy beard.
A pot-belly shows from underneath His Notre Dame t-shirt.
A California Angels ball-cap rests on His head.
Lite Holy water is in the left hand, and
the remote control is firmly in His grip.

.

Saints may doubt His existence,
but they do know That which
resembles a false idol.

.

There is no faith without a doubt.
Leap is what This is about.

.

I am a
tadpole.

Char, post #68

"When we limit ourselves, ignorance swims in darkness and is unable to see how God can do all things as well as perceiving the greatness of a God who is infinite and eternal."

I have seen the abundant beauty of (gothic) cathedrals, some of which (like Chartres) tell the story of all the people that lived there in that timeline and were involved in building it, from low to high.

I have seen churches in our country being closed and given a whole other purpose: some of them were transformed into covered playgardens for children. My own children have played in one. Beautiful abundance and joy for many children at that time.

I have been to the Lifegardens today and saw the abundance of Nature in all its glory. How rich, at the end of the summer!

Wealth, richness and abundance is found in the very little things as well as in the more greater ones. God really is unlimited.

Luckily God belongs to no religion whatsoever!

It is all in the eye of the beholder and that eye can indeed be unlimited :)

Secular buildings, when they are made from the inside with love, the light will shine through them and in them in abundance!

Love and Light,

Mieke

Dear Ron,

I could give you many more arguments from both science and my personal experiences with biology, and we could go on like this until one of us would stand on the other's head :) But you know what? I don't see why. It is not important in any way that you believe what I believe or that you know what I know. Any of us, or both, can be wrong or right, or both. So the only thing that matters as I see it is your wish "may you enjoy the rest of the day". Thank you. Wishing another well no matter what belief or experience they might have means being anchored in a truth compared to which, everything else is peanuts. So have a wonderful day, Ron, one of those really good ones!

Ed, thanks for caring :)

Melissa, please check your messagebox on ANH, thank you.

Olivia, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Aurora C.

Namaste!

Bonnie
Namaste

Aurura
Namaste

and to everyone

Namatse and Peace

Sure, friends :) Namaste!
I honour the light and the beauty in us all. Aren't we just fantastic... and a little funny at times, lol... but lovable anyway :)

Beauty and Light are everywhere. To understand the light, we must also understand the darkness.

A Sufi poem by Agahi Dede

The Tavern and the Temple
O Righteous one,
to me, the tavern and the temple are the same.

The sounds of praying and of drunken revelry
are the same.

Unless you're granted the taste of unity,
whether you pray or sit at the tavern

it amounts to the same.

Leave all your hopeless duality.
Whether I worship or drink it is the same.

I don't care if I live in ruins
or hold the whole world in my hand.
The wise and the crazy often look the same.

Don't trade your soul for worldly riches.
Agahi and the Divine Light shine the same--

for the candle's flame
and the moth who plunges into it

are the same.

Well, I thought about this some more last night and just maybe this is what Mother Teresa was going thru....

First she hears Jesus Christ and then she accepts the invitation to follow. Once she accepts, Jesus Christ steps aside (and we have to let go) as the direct door has been opened to God. Then when she stands before God, S/He steps aside to let her be a god. Maybe this was to make her stronger. This must have been how Jesus Christ became a god and a father to all, like God is a father to all, same as a Pope or any other priest, etc. Plus, we all have doubts about many things, so I don't think her doubts will damage the Christian faith, as it only made my stronger and more real, i.e., tangible. And the Catholic leaders did not have a problem releasing her letters, so that tells me that just maybe they also have doubts. And maybe this is just to test the public to see how we react to the truth. Who knows. Anyway, I think that saint stuff is just a judgment call, which depends on who is judging whom. Who can say who is a saint and who is not? Maybe we are all saints...

Just some random thoughts.

Love, Char

BTW: I am not saying that other people cannot reach God in the way it has been set up for them via their traditions, as the Bible even talks about other flocks other than the Jews and Gentiles. So there is no question in mind of other ways and Jesus was compared to the order of a priest call Mileckic....??? (sp?) who was not Jewish nor Christian. However, the reason that I fully support the Christian faith is that this is the way that I came to know God and it works. There is no reason for anyone to cut this religion into pieces or try and destroy it, because it works. Jesus Christ was a great Master and knew God. What I think must upset everyone is the way a young Christian tries to explain the journey, which causes problems. I think it would be in our best interest to help others understand God better, especially the Christians that do not know. Yes, I am still learning, but I can at least see that there are other paths to God, as this is a great and loving God that will not deny anyone of that beauty. So anytime anyone of us can help a Christian that starts attacking us, is maybe give them some food for thought .... and then run like hell!!! .... joking - kind of.

Love, Char

...sorry for the double posting as I got an error this the first one did not post and I could not find it....

Genesis 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,
Genesis 14:17-19 (in Context) Genesis 14 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 110:4
The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
Psalm 110:3-5 (in Context) Psalm 110 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 5:6
And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 5:5-7 (in Context) Hebrews 5 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 5:10
and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 5:9-11 (in Context) Hebrews 5 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 6:20
where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:19-20 (in Context) Hebrews 6 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 7:1
[ Melchizedek the Priest ] This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
Hebrews 7:1-3 (in Context) Hebrews 7 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 7:10
because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
Hebrews 7:9-11 (in Context) Hebrews 7 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 7:11
[ Jesus Like Melchizedek ] If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:10-12 (in Context) Hebrews 7 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 7:15
And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
Hebrews 7:14-16 (in Context) Hebrews 7 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 7:17
For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 7:16-18 (in Context) Hebrews 7 (Whole Chapter)

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I found the correct spelling of Melchizedek who was not Jewish nor Christian, but was nonetheless a high priest of God. Here's the website in case anyone wants more details....

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Melchizedek.&qs_version=31

Love, Char

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=other+flock&qs_version=31

OTHER FLOCKS OF GOD

John 10 (more verses included so it reads better)

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep tha are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter

BTW: In the "Life Applications Bible" as i looked it up this morning since this book has some nice time tables, the date of creation is listed as 'unknown.'

yo char 4...damn!

i just browsed this thread and see a spammer...yo lady...we already have our resident spammer...the Polish dude...what's up with this? damn!

there is 116 posts on this thread and u have spammed us 31 times or 36%...whoahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah....whoa!

btw...do u really believe people actually read all that stuff?

or if they do, damn, u are good! yo!

The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.
- Pierre Abelard

It is sad that Mother Teresa was suffering from guilt because she was doubting God's existence. I feel that the few individuals who take on the immense burden of trying to comfort so many suffering people (like Mother Teresa) absorb so much grief and suffering that they would either "fall apart" from the weight they carry, or go into "doubt mode" as a coping mechanism. It is beyond our comprehension why God's creation contains so much pain and suffering along with beauty and joy.
However, there are reasons for everything that we are not meant to know or understand in the given moment. It is probably much easier for a scientist,objectively studying the marvel of creation on all levels, to seek and understand God than a person devoted to charity like Mother Teresa. This is one of the paradoxes of humanity.
namaste

The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.
- Pierre Abelard

It is sad that Mother Teresa was suffering from guilt because she was doubting God's existence. I feel that the few individuals who take on the immense burden of trying to comfort so many suffering people (like Mother Teresa) absorb so much grief and suffering that they would either "fall apart" from the weight they carry, or go into "doubt mode" as a coping mechanism. It is beyond our comprehension why God's creation contains so much pain and suffering along with beauty and joy.
However, there are reasons for everything that we are not meant to know or understand in the given moment. It is probably much easier for a scientist,objectively studying the marvel of creation on all levels, to seek and understand God than a person devoted to charity like Mother Teresa. This is one of the paradoxes of humanity.
namaste

The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.
- Pierre Abelard

It is sad that Mother Teresa was suffering from guilt because she was doubting God's existence. I feel that the few individuals who take on the immense burden of trying to comfort so many suffering people (like Mother Teresa) absorb so much grief and suffering that they would either "fall apart" from the weight they carry, or go into "doubt mode" as a coping mechanism. It is beyond our comprehension why God's creation contains so much pain and suffering along with beauty and joy.
However, there are reasons for everything that we are not meant to know or understand in the given moment. It is probably much easier for a scientist,objectively studying the marvel of creation on all levels, to seek and understand God than a person devoted to charity like Mother Teresa. This is one of the paradoxes of humanity.
namaste

Grandma P says that uncle Albert dropped out of school at 16? sweet!

I love you CC