Hello Deepak,
I can't answer your question ... if the future has arrived.
Sorry!
Love,
~ Kate

Hi Deepak!

I am so happy that you pointed out how strange it is that people accept opinions about God coming from much lesser minds than Einstein and seem to just pass over his deeply held views.
In regards to your question about Buddhism, my only input is that I studied Buddhism in school, I was brought up Catholic. Now, keep in mind, I totally object to any extreme form of Christianity, but I do believe in Christianity more than Buddhism. Deepak, people in their heart of hearts NEED a personal God, and that is what you find in Christianity. I remember from childhood hearing that sentence that "God cares about the fall of a sparrow, how could he not care for you?" (sorry that's paraphrased)--anyway, whether that is true or not I'd rather believe it, and I think everyone, if they are honest, would rather believe it. Also, I DO in fact believe that.
I think of course beliefs are leaning towards the New Age where Buddhism would be embraced but I honestly just think, ironically in this age of science and technology, people are hungering for connection and for something personal--I don't think that Buddhism will provide that so you may see the trend returning to these religions like Christianity.
Also, for Einstein to say as he did that "either everything is seen as a miracle or nothing is seen as a miracle (sorry again paraphrased)" I really feel he deep down may have had strong Christian leanings from reading his other quotes also.
Well, thanks for the interesting article, Olivia

Dear Deepak,

Ready or not, everyOne is on the roller coaster for the journey into the twilight zone at least that is what I would call it.

This is one place where the pebbles will be dropped into the pond, a mind field.

There is no stopping the evolution and expansion of consciousness, the world is in for dramatic change.

Those open to the possibility soon see the mind and everything that happens are inextricably linked and it appears that this is becoming more so. Not only is the mind having more influence the manifestation is much quicker.

I am sure there is a scientific explanation for it all because it is an observable phenomenon, if you know what to look for.

I think there is one statement that can be made about the universe.

The universe is not irrational.

That being said, I think it created mankind, a creature with irrational capabilities, just to see what would happen.

Deepak,

I just looked online at some Einstein quotes on religion and it is clear to me now that he was certainly not Christian in his thinking.
Although I don't think all of his thoughts seem consistent--there to me seems like a "leaning" towards something "Christian" in the nature of his beliefs--why conceive of everything as being a "miracle" as he seems to?
Anyway, I don't agree with a lot of what I read that he said--I don't agree that God does not concern himself personally with people, etc.
I can imagine that Einstein must have felt such curiosity about the nature of God, figuring out all that he had and all, but all I can say is his quotes are interesting. It seems like he may have had mixed feelings about the nature of God.

Personally, I think ....

If Einstein was a 'Freemason' and in order to be a member, one must believe in God. And I believe that the Freemason believed in ONE God of all people and they were and still are an organization of all beliefs, except they still don't like to accept women (via a website I visited), which is too bad. Of course, that definition of what that One God is pretty big, so that requirement of membership is a good start.

I also can see how Einstein could say he was an ...

Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

... because he came to know himself as a god. There is really no other way and I think Einstein did it the right way by going thru all the stages to become aware of what he was.

In short, a Christian must continue on their journey and if they seek the truth, enduring the pain of this path of light, then they will reach God in the right way for them, as Jesus Christ states in the Bible in so many words.

This world has a high percentage of Christians to to say that their God is not a personal God is not what I believe Einstein meant - same with a Jew or any faith or belief.

So I don't see anyone converting to any one world order of belief or non-belief anytime soon, as everyone must make the journey on their own and in the path laid out before them.

However, I can see different beliefs coming together for a common goal, but what I have been exposed to by the Christian community, especially the Bible Belt, no one is reaching unity any time soon. In fact, they believe that world peace is evil and the work of the devil, i.e., their way is the only way and they will die for this belief. I think is has more to do with lack of understanding of what the Bible is really saying. A Christian see world peace as trickery and lies of the anit-Christ. Once I mentioned 'pray for world peace' on a prayer card at a Baptist church that I attended briefly in CA and I was shunned, as if I was evil or anti-Christ. It's really too bad.

Well time for the weekend!

Love, Char

"What's so heartening about him today is that Einstein never adopted the arrogant small-mindedness of contemporary atheists like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, neither of whom evinces the slightest awareness of the quantum revolution that occurred a century ago."

Perhaps, to level the playing field, we should ask Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens to respond to the above slight! I am certain they would have a few choice words for the author!

"In the last installment of this post, I want to ask if the future has arrived: Are we ready for a secular spirituality that will include all the advantages that Einstein saw in Buddhism while forging a new path into unknown territory?"

So in short NO.

Love, Char

In the future,

We won't be quoting Einstein's God or Spinoza's God, but (drum roll please)-

Deepak's God!!!

Steve

It seems that Einstein was one of the few that embraced Spinoza, probably because Spinoza came closest to describing in a spiritual sense Enstein's Grand Unification Theory. Otherwise Spinoza is an esoteric study and an interesting part of Jewish history.

Now Deepak is going to unveil his Secular Spirituality that will resemble a mix of Einstein/Spinoza/Vedanta/Buddha/and New Age Quantum theories.

I will await part 5 for the rollout, however, I'm afraid it's going to end up as a philosophical curio at best. Tying together very obtuse philosophies, that very very few people will even begin to grasp doesn't make for a revolution.

Craig , are you ok my brother?

Regards,

Steve

"What's so heartening about him today is that Einstein never adopted the arrogant small-mindedness of contemporary atheists like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, neither of whom evinces the slightest awareness of the quantum revolution that occurred a century ago."

This one remark underscores the small mindedness of the author and his ego in attacking his opponents.

The author apparently misinterprets Einstein's views and Quantum Mechanics and his knowledge of Evolutionary Bilology, Genetics, Basic Physics and Chemistry is far from deserving, apart from Qunatum Mechanics and Unified Theories. Apparently he feels a moral superioiy to make superior and arrogant remarks out of ignorance of his own short comings.

An impersonal god is like a trinity of monkeys--

"Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil."

"Hear no god, see no god, speak to no god."

"You are god, I am god, he/she/it is god."

"I am me, you are you, we are god."

If you weren't here, I wouldn't be either.

Excuse me for speaking to no one in particular.

.

A wide brush is a fat belt.

A single horse hair tickles.

Which 'ism am I?

Uhm...............yo
I'm with Char on this.........
"So I don't see anyone converting to any one world order of belief or non-belief anytime soon, as everyone must make the journey on their own and in the path laid out before them.
However, I can see different beliefs coming together for a common goal," You go Char beautifully said.

I don't see Buddhism as the future.

Richard gets my vote as well.

As for my own two cents, no questions answered so far.

Has the future arrived? It arrives as soon as we let go of the present.
I still say let the future be a surprise created by our collective intentions.

Yo Deepak let go of the fight against Dawkins and embrace him for his difference from you.
Our differences become our strengths.

Everyone has a gift to bring to the table, Dawkins, you, me and All the people here in this thread. Hopefully everyone brings a different gift.

peace bro

derek

Truth is we are going to need to treat God just like atoms. Nobody can see an atom (they are apparently smaller than the smallest wavelength of light) so it is in FAITH that we trust the words of scientists that atoms exist.

Just like many models for God, scientists have also changed their models for the unseen world.

Scientists look for the effects of the atoms, they guess (theorize) that if they do exist then this and this must be true. If we do this and this we should get this and that for results.

We really should take a scientific approach to God, or an all pervading intelligence, if there is such thing, we can theorize that thinking or doing this and this, we should get this and that for results.

One thing that would provide evidence of this invisible intelligent element is synchronicity.

Just like atoms, we are never going to see God or that all pervading intelligence, God like atoms does not reflect light.

But logic would have it that we could see the “effects” of God, or an all pervading intelligence and experiment with the possibility and then look at the results of the experiments for proof. If there is such intelligence there, it would probably respond to us we could see it’s effects in our lives.

We had faith in scientists, mere mortals, and now we can fly and turn a string of zero’s and ones into colorful moving pictures, and we can talk to each other without any physical connection instantly . I wonder what faith in the existence of an all pervading intelligence could result in?

Well I am off to Cleveland early in the morning to shoot some video tomorrow. Maybe I will try some God experiments.

Wouldn’t it be funny if the thing we are doing the experiment on, is doing the experiment.

Dr. Chopra:

Does it matter if the world is ready? Let me put it differently:

If the primordial element is the same that manifests in different ways - does it *need* to be ready to realize its true nature?

Personally, I still believe that although Buddhism did reach very high in the spiritual thought - but the HIGHEST the human kind ever reached in its thought was in Vedanta. For one simple reason - not one but MANY Buddhas put their knowledge together in one bucket.. free of ego.. with complete humility. That is why they transcended the separate thoughts.

In any case, humans will always need a prop like religion to "Outsource" their Guilt and responsibility! Otherwise everyone could be a Buddha. A soul which can take its responsibility is the only one that becomes a Buddha... the rest need religion.

This series from you remains my all time favorite!! Thanks again!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

I hope we are headed towards a more realistic spirituality. I won't say "secular" spirituality because that implies a reaction to organized religion.

An authentic spirituality cannot arise as simply a reaction to the past. It has to be grounded in deep insights about the nature of reality.

This may demand some further evolution of the species.

For the first time in the history of life on Earth, the challenge may be for the species to alter itself directly, through manipulation of the genetic code, and through a deeper understanding, from a scientific view, of the way interconnected (interdependent) systems work.

We will have to, on purpose, and knowing that we are tinkering with very basic aspects of life itself, find a way to evolve the species and eliminate some of our self-destructive tendencies.

The fears of the unknown and the religious indoctrination that thus far has always thrown us backward will have to be confronted, sooner or later.

Buddhism maybe has some aspects of the new, reality-based spirituality, but so do all the religions. And all the religions, Buddhism included, have acquired a lot of social junk and superstitions that have to be thrown away as well.

The new spirituality will not be a set of beliefs designed to explain what we don't know, but rather a deep commitment to exploring existence, and being as realistic as possible about what we find when we do.

We now believe in the power of denial, but this will be replaced by an understanding of the weakness of denial and a recognition of the strength of not needing final answers in order to continue growing.

We will not need a Big Daddy in the Sky, but we will need more sky to expand into.

The new spirituality will not come from any outside God, but will blossom forth from inside us.

We are not God any more than a single drop of water is the Ocean. Yet the ocean realizes itself though its own drops.

In other words, the meaningless distinction between God and not-God will be dropped.

YOGI-ONE,
"the meaningless distinction between God and not-God will be dropped."

this is - the future, arrived.
Brilliant!
love,
~ Kate

Dunno DC, if I was a marketer then I would certainly rebrand a fantastic but user-unfriendly product like Spinoza's God as something easier to use, like Jesus.

Dim Consciousness. Spinoza's God is always going to be up against it and will probably always lose.

Best of luck with pushing the idea though dude, i'll back ya ;]

Heathen spirituality(no offense, Heath) is defensive.
And we know...a good defense is the best offense.

Aggression will be appeased if we concoct a highlighted gene pool.

Competition will be slaughtered, and laziness upheld.

Everyone equal...3 crackers and one cup of milk daily for 10 billion people.

Waiting for mana to fall from the sky is deedless faith.

Once we have divided everything equally, including our ability
to love,
there will be no one special anything, nor special no things.

"To be or not to be" as the only true philosophical question,
will become meaningless, because no one needs you.

Caring, giving, helping, serving only a common cause
and humanities best interest, decided upon by who?

Disillusionment is hog-tied to enlightenment.
Impermanence is a wet, sloppy, mud hole gone dry.

Oink, oink.

says the TREE....

"Disillusionment is hog-tied to enlightenment.

Impermanence is a wet, sloppy, mud hole gone dry.

Oink, oink."

oink, oink? wow...bery, bery deep, dude! damn!

Nicely put Yogi-One

and you too Keith, put nicely.

When we can all be who we are fully,
the future wil be unnecessery.

derek

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

I too explored god and religion and found my way to Buddhism and then moved onward...

I love Nisargadatta's saying..."People keep busy because they find it difficult to bear their own consciousness. They look for various forms of entertainment to escape from themselves. The greatest challenge lies in looking at oneself-by being "alone" with oneself. And, really, most religions offer, through the idea of a personal god, to carry that weight for individuals...if they just perform these actions, say, these prayers, obey, this dogma from whatever book, that is the bestseller, of that particular devotion, all will be well, you will be taken care of, and the most important promise of all is the....and you never have to experience your a-lone-ness. The promise of, whatever, is pretty powerful....not at all unlike the toddler who sees the person holding out that offering of the toy, or treat, it almost beyond their ability to refuse...but the most important word here is "almost," because there are those whose toddler tastes buds no longer find those treats delectable, their taste buds have outgrown the sweetness of the offerings and they are ready for something less sweet, more subtle, closer to being without a particular taste, but fulfilling none the less....

ponderings...ruth

The inner-scope multi-focus has been found
Active but sadly without conscience

The signals are caught
Bi-directional, from/to none-everywhere

The original inner-terrestrial code
Is about to be understood

The true-man intelligence
Without a fear-sufferance

The traveling machine, could be us
The truth is in-here...

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

came across this... by Nisargadatta," You have to become your own proof of the nondual Absolute. There, you will meet no other."

to contemplate the idea of the nondual Absolute where one meets no other....is difficult for one to bear consciously...who wants to "be" where there is no other?....Ken Wilber thinks the Universe was created because the Absolute didn't want to have dinner alone...so is the Absolute lonely? Does the Absolute want someone to play with?

Is it a longing for company, a longing for companionship, is it a longing "to be with" that we spring forth from....are we, all of us, just simply longed for? Could it be that these longings we feel in life are not our own individual longings but the longing of the Absolute itself..the very longing to simply "BE" which we alreay are.

more ponderings.ruth

I AM but who knows I AM? anyone?

I don't think there is anything wrong with believing in Jesus and Christian thinking. I am not sure I understand how Einstein's scientific discoveries "discredit" Christianity.
Also, I know these posts began with discussing Mother Theresa's experience of doubting God--but yet that subject itself could have warranted a series of posts. Her doubting God or having what may have been a "Dark Night of the Soul" does not make me think that there is no "personal" God. What about the fact that all of her work was inspired by her love for Jesus regardless of what doubts she had? Isn't that amazing in and of itself?
I myself don't find science at odds with Christianity. I think Jesus worked 1,000 years ago and he works today. I also feel that if Buddhism works for someone that is wonderful. But why act as if there can be no "personal" God?

Olivia:

There is nothing wrong in understanding Jesus. In fact it would be the highest achievement if anyone could!

But are you sure that "being a Christian" is the same thing as "knowing Jesus"?

I have always believed that there was only one real "Christian' and he died on the cross! After that it was the tribal mentality of that era that proposed to quantify Jesus in the language of that era and failed miserably!

Jesus - the concept of Jesus at least, not the Jesus in the Bibles that are taught in the Churches - was epitomy of UNCONDITIONAL and OMNI_DIRECTIONAL love. That love has no bounds and no limits. In fact it is NOT the "love" that you and I term as love. It is the absence of any such Love (or hate) born out of relational equation.

It is a detached awareness of being without value judgment.

Is that possible with a Personal God?

And WHAT is a "Personal" God? A God that is created in the very PERSONA of the person believing in it? Isnt it? That is why such a "God" gets angry, gives punishments.. and sometimes - after we implore and pray enough - "forgives"! If the US Judiciary system was full of such placatable judges it would be the MOST CORRUPT Judiciary in the world - not that it is far from it, thanks to Good ol' Al!

Listening to most commentators and Church preachers on TV and reading their books.. and their pronouncements .... as well as discussion of most who swear by Jesus... I am convinced BEYOND doubt that the Christians of today have no freaking idea of what and who Jesus was! People are not even close to understanding his actual and real greatness!

That is why I said - with the exception of Jesus - the Abrahamic tree of religions had never seen or witnessed a "Truly Enlightened" soul. That is why he was and is the most misunderstood.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh: You have made me to feel sorry for you.
I didn't have to try, reading your words made it easy.
Curse judgments--injuring others you have never met
makes you feel...what? Better?
The only thing convincing here is your doubt.
Why you chose to say it is BEYOND me,
therefore, I am not offended.

You are right, it is about giving without expecting to profit in return.

There is only one ME. I come with no attachments.
You cannot take ME, nor leave ME.
I AM--responsible for ALL THAT,
and you call IT 'naught'.
So be IT.
With Love,
ME2

Keith:

That is fine. :-) I have said what I can see around me. I believe a Master's message is more important than He. I truly believe that Jesus was an enlightened and great soul. The more "use" I see of Jesus in this society in the US go around rampant.. the more disillusioned I become of the Churches and the many priests/pastors and those who follow them.

It is no different from my feeling of the many Hindu temples.. that I have sworn never to visit again. The ignorance.. in fact prostitution of God by the so-called "religious-minded" is amazingly nauseating.

This blindness in the name of worship and religion is full of debilitating hypocrisy.... honestly.. God is used as an Outsourcing mechanism.. no more. Outsourcing of personal guilt and responsibility!

No one is out there to "help" you.. for if "God" really did make everything.. and He is indeed Perfection... then His so-called act of "helping" someone will make that He made a "mistake" the first time around. Only ignorants and those who weigh God on the scale of human emotions can keep believing in this kind of folk-lore. But that is what every Priest, "Holy-man" and Pastor worth his/her salt has preached from the Churches, Temples, Mosques and the like... and even the most intelligent and logical of people - including scientists believe in this Circular Logic!

You might take this to be my anger.... and discount it.. but I have these thoughts as a way of questioning ourselves. Are we really honest in our exploration.. or is it a way to fool all.. including our ownselves?

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

The answer to your question is, only after a Third World War. I think then that nuclear energy will be utilized for beneficial needs and people will be willing to trade with each other and follow the lead of a United Nations, instead of any arising super power.
As it concerns Buddhism, DT Suzuki wrote that the two aspects of God are Love and Wisdom, Karuna and Prajna. He said if one has to chose, then choose Love. This is in effect the personal God.

Desh,

You are SO wrong when you try to equate Jesus with another Buddha figure. If you read the bible Jesus' love was not a "non-relational" love. There are many touching parts in the bible where he shows great tenderness for people such as his mother and in my opinion, Mary Magdalene, who he appears to first after rising from the dead in I believe 3 of the 4 Gospels--he shows personal love to many others if you read the bible. Love is, I believe, viewed somewhat differently in Christianity than in Buddhism, but that is OK!
Anyway, honestly, I have to say isn't it more realistic to strive to be like Jesus and love people on a one on one basis rather than to strive to be "enlightened" and love every person on earth equally in a totally unbiased way? How realistic is THAT? How necessary is that? Considering most of us will probably only know a relatively small number--considering the huge number of people on earth-- of people in our lives?
Honestly, do I even want a person to say to me "I love you--but it is nothing personal--it has nothing to do with you or with anything about you--not the color of your hair, or the way you act or the way you laugh--I love you on equal footing with every other being and see nothing special about you."
Anyway, please don't confuse all Christians with the loud mouths on TV--you are right those people don't know jack squat about Jesus' message. Jesus' message is not about hating others or judging others who don't conform. Those people know nothing of Jesus's love, but not every Christian is like that.

Olivia:

Thanks! But you still need some exploration on Jesus. A "relational" love is limited by the relationships and is in that sense - CONDITIONAL. It cannot transcend relations - and is defined by relations!

Jesus' love transcended not only those who were related to him but also enveloped those who hated him, indeed wanted to kill him. It was not a fake expression of love that he exhibited for his killers. It was real.

Love that is "directed" toward something.. is also directed AWAY from something! A non-directional and non-relational love is the ONLY form of love that can transcend the limitations of "Quid Pro Quo" of any kind.

Love is love when it is when nothing is expected in return.

The reason why a Coke logo looks "red" is not because it has Red "in it". It is red because when White light falls on it, it REFLECTS red color off, and absorbs the rest of the colors! Thats a scientific fact!

The same is with "Love". The love that all creation is Steeped in the "White Light" - the Universal Consciousness. We are "defined" by what he give out... NOT what we take in!

Jesuses and Buddhas are those Souls that give out EXACTLY what they take in! They do not "hold" on to any light! So, in their case - it is "White-in.. White-out"!

This can only happen when the minds are rested and no "noise" exists to create any distortions!

To completely understand this - please imagine "God" or Universal Consciousness as the Sunlight - which does NOT distinguish between what and who it enriches. Yet, it is absorbed by all ... only few objects reflect or better still let it through without distortions!

That is why I said it is ONE thing to be a Christian.. and QUITE ANOTHER to "Know Jesus"!

It will serve the world a lot of good, if Christians could "love" like Jesus.. the real Jesus.. not the one which has been defined from a completely egotistic, Me-centered, receiving (as opposed to Giving) definition of Love!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

To "Know Jesus" is to have faith in the certainty of direct experience.
It begins with knowledge of the Trinity, of which the Holy Spirit is one aspect.
It ends with a sureness, or assurance, in eternal life.

.
There was a death in the family.

An agnostic cried out
to the heavens...
A question was posed.
Immediately the answer was felt
and understood.
Then the man who once decried God
literally wept, ashamed that he ever doubted.

This physical presence brought about a physical reaction.
This man had never been more relieved...
soothed...healed.

Wondering what the hell just happened,
the man turned on the radio to a rock~n~roll station.
The Doobie Brothers were singing,
"Jesus Is Just Alright With Me".

Do you think this man any longer questions who visited him?

The perfect explanation is 'coincidence'...or not.

I think not, I know, yes.

Peace and Love! --to Dash and Olivia and everyone I know here!

Keith

There was a death on a cross, Keith.
No need to be cross with me.
No need for me to be cross.

Thrice did I tremble and shake
At the edge of some awful abyss.
Each time I copped out.
But I never heard the cock crow.
Instead came a voice, "It is over."
Peter not Thomas.

Peter has the key, Ed.

The answer to my one question is yes.

Sorry Desh, I was dashing to finish and get to work.

Are we ready for a secular spirituality that will include all the advantages that Einstein saw in Buddhism while forging a new path into unknown territory?
If it is a question for an individual my answer is: An individual is always ready for spirituality. Just one looks at sky or looks at an animal or looks at a baby or anything around, opens a new path into unknown territory and because it is unknown territory one is tend to go for searching. Einstein did this with matter and what he found that matter is simply energy. He realizes the vastness of truth. To me Einstein was very near to the realization. Normally one sees matter in three states 1) Solid 2) liquid 3) Gas. If one sees from forth state of matter, which is Plasma, there opens the big possibilities to explore the mystery of universe, body, mind and matter.
As per as spirituality is concern, it is a process of merging and losing like enter in to the forth state of matter as Gurdjieff’s forth way or to be plasma.
Moon minds never able to realize the truth because they know only to reflect. How beautiful moon is, it remains without life. Only earth knows to produce Buddhas.