I prefer mystery over spooky woo.

Everything has a melting point.

Dear Skeptisch and Deepak,
I would be pleased to meet you both (that is - if I would be so invited) in the Big Apple and sample a sight of spoonbending too.
Afterwards, we can have a bite to eat at Vikas' restaurant.
:)
Love,
~ Kate

Make sure you hide the forks...otherwise you will be eating with your fingers.

:-)

Dear Deepak,
This post sounds "spoon bending"

:)

Cinda

"Uri Geller" by Robert Todd Caroll

"If Uri Geller bends spoons with divine powers, then he's doing it the hard way." —James Randi

"Because a good magician can do something shouldn't make you right away jump to the conclusion that it's a real phenomenon." —Richard Feynman

"Geller is at his ingenious best in laboratories where he is being observed by scientists who believe he has extraordinary ESP ability and think—without justification—that they have ruled out every possibility of fraud." —Milbourne Christopher

Uri Geller is most famous for his claim to be able to bend spoons and keys with his mind. An international star in the psychic circuit, Geller is a Hungarian/Austrian who was born in Israel and lives in England. He claims he's had visions for many years and may get his powers from extraterrestrials. He calls himself a psychic and has sued several people for millions of dollars for saying otherwise. His psychic powers were not sufficient to reveal to him, however, that he would lose all the lawsuits against his critics. His arch critic has been James "The Amazing" Randi, who has written a book and numerous articles aimed at demonstrating that Geller is a fraud, that he has no psychic powers, and that what Geller does amounts to no more than the parlor tricks of a conjurer.

Geller has been performing for many years. The first time I saw him was in 1973 when he appeared on the Johnny Carson Tonight Show. He was supposed to demonstrate his ability to bend spoons with his thoughts and identify hidden objects, but he failed to even try. He squirmed around and said something about how his power can't be turned on and off, and that he didn't feel strong right then. Randi had worked with Carson's producer to change the spoons and metal items Geller planned to use, as there was a suspicion that Geller likes to work (i.e., soften) his metals before his demonstrations, as would any careful conjurer. [View Geller's Tonight Show lack of performance.]

I have always been fascinated and puzzled by the attraction of Uri Geller. I suppose this is because nearly every one of our household spoons is bent and what I would like to see is someone who can straighten them, with his mind or with anything for that matter. Likewise with stopped watches. I have several of those and I would love for someone to use his powers, psychic or otherwise, to make them start running again. Of course, even I can get my stopped watches to run again for a short while by shaking or tapping them, but a permanent fix would be appreciated. There is something mysterious, however, about a person who has built a career out of breaking things.

Geller may have suffered defeat in the law courts but he appears to be doing quite well in the world as a consultant for psychic detection. He claims he is paid goodly sums of money to use his special gift as a psychic geologist, dowsing for oil or whatever. In the 1970s, Geller was tested at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) by Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ. Randi refers to Puthoff and Targ as "the Laurel and Hardy of psi," which is an insult to Laurel and Hardy (Randi 1982a: 131).* Puthoff and Targ deemed Geller such a gifted psychic that they invented a term to describe his powers: the "Geller effect." For a detailed account of how easy it is to demonstrate incompetence and to commit fraud in this area, read James Randi's account of the Uri Geller experiments designed and executed by Targ and Puthoff. See either chapter 7 of Flim-Flam! or The Truth About of Uri Geller.

Geller's own version of his colossal talent is told by Uri himself at Uri-Geller.com. He even features an interactive page where the visitor can try to bend a spoon Geller has placed somewhere. A live cam transmits a picture of the spoon. If you bend the spoon, you get a million dollars. If you are successful in bending Uri's spoon, you may have a difficult time proving your claim. You may even have to go to court to collect, but don't expect too much sympathy from judge or jury. Geller has been there and he knows what courts can do to people who claim they have psychic powers capable of bending teaspoons. He may publicly cast doubt on your psychic powers, causing you great humiliation. You may sue him. But, remember; he's been there, done that, and he knows who will win. And he doesn't even have to use up any psychic energy to make the prediction.

Geller has also ventured into the lucrative New Age self-help/personal growth industry. For sale is his Mind-Power Kit for about $30. The kit includes an audio tape, a crystal, and a book with topics such as how to develop your ESP, dowsing, crystal power, color therapy, and, of course, psychokinesis.

Many magicians do what Geller does, but they call themselves magicians, conjurers, or mentalists. Good magicians are good tricksters and good tricksters can fool the smartest of people. They can amaze people with their ability to seemingly move objects with an act of will, suspend objects in space, view objects that are hidden, read minds, predict the future, identify the content of hidden messages or drawings, and the like. What is amazing is that they don't amaze people by winning the lottery or finding a cure for cancer. Why don't they bypass airports and paranormally transport themselves to their next gig? Why do they take their cars to a mechanic when they break down? Why do they waste their time moving a wire in a glass bottle instead of moving a waterfall over a forest fire? The answer is obvious. Such useful feats would require more than distraction and legerdemain.

Why do parlor tricks convince even very intelligent people that they have witnessed a paranormal event rather than a bit of magic? Because even many intelligent people are too foolish to realize that they are not so intelligent as to be beyond being fooled. One really intelligent person who would not be fooled was Richard Feynman, who met Uri Geller. Feynman said "I'm smart enough to know that I'm dumb." Feynman was intelligent enough to realize that a good magician can make it seem as if the laws of nature have been violated and even a great physicist sometimes can't figure out the trick.

See also law of truly large numbers.

* For a detailed account of the incompetence of the work of Puthoff and Targ see chapter 13 of C.E.M. Hansel's The Search for Psychic Power: ESP and Parapsychology Revisited. (Prometheus Books, 1989). See also chapters 2, 3, and 13 of David Marks's The Psychology of the Psychic, (Prometheus Books. 2000) and chapter 7 of James Randi's Flim-Flam! (Prometheus Books, 1982). After reading these accounts of the work done by Puthoff and Targ, the reader will understand why Randi refers to them as the Laurel and Hardy of psi.

Click here to view a video clip of Randi exposing Geller and Peter Popoff from NOVA's "Secrets of the Psychics."

further reading

* "Geller Caught Red-Handed" by Massimo Polidoro
* Uri Geller - A Sceptical Perspective
* Uri Geller - Rotten.com
* Uri Geller - A Psychic Fraud. New Zealand Rationalist & Humanist - June 1978 - Vol. 39, No. 12
* "Psychic Must Pay Skeptics Up To $120,000"
* Uri Geller Libel Suit Dismissed - Alleged "Psychic" Uri Geller loses libel suit against Prometheus Books

Christopher, Milbourne. (1975). Mediums, Mystics & the Occult. Thomas Y. Crowell Company.

Randi, James. Flim-Flam! (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books,1982a), ch. 7.

Randi, James. The Truth About Uri Geller , (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1982b).

http://skepdic.com/geller.html

"just put a spoon on Larry’s desk and bend it with your mind and without touching it. If successful, you will shut up most of us skeptics."

Not so fast Skeptisch! magicians can do such things! but it could be safe bet with Deepak though :) he is not a trained magician, and as they say...old dog - new trick thing.

"Another alternative would be you taking up the James Randi Educational Foundation’s paranormal challenge and earn a million dollars in the process."

Just to remind, spiritual people can use the million for charity.

But Na... i don't think Deepak would take that challenge up. You know as they say...Randi is biased, Randi is making extreme demands and constraints for their minds to work...etc etc...

Oh, come on, if spoon-bending is real, it is the result of a non-local process, which by its nature is affected by the presence of observers. To overcome the observer effect takes considerable skill in management of the mind's activity. People who have well-developed non-local skills can't be asked to perform them like a pony is asked to perform a trick. And to continually compare DC with Uri Geller is like saying an orange is a soccer ball.

All the noise from Patricia, Janet and MM is simply resistance to the possibility of a life-changing experience. Or, a wish that they'd been invited instead of Skeptisch?

I would be impressed if Skep took up DC's challenge.

Skep, how can you pass this one up? At the very least, wouldn't it be fun? What an honor, to be invited by Deepak himself!

love, Heath

It would have been more impressive if Deepak had said: "Come to New york, all expenses paid!"

Rgds.

No offense, I love your books and peace work, but right you have just stated you do not believe in the supernatural or paranormal then concluded that with "god bless". I have a need for consistency in the world, and that is not consistent at all. Would you be willing to clarify this?

I have read your stuff and I read your blog for awhile. I am a huge supporter of most of what you say, but I couldn't help pointing out that there is no more evidence for bending spoons than there is for god. So, if you are going to make such a claim, why pick and choose what to believe?

If you are not going to believe in the supernatural, then where does that put god?

Peace,
Joe

Dear Deepak,

We seem to maintain much of the same things. I think one issue is that people do not invest the time to read and digest certain information, especially the multitude of recent discoveries and insight being produced by science.

I also think that some are lacking a neural framework necessary for comprehension and understanding because learning takes effort and many items have prerequisite conceptual understanding which does not come to a **closed mind**. A good scientist will always entertain all possibility even when accompanied by improbability because quite often the assessment of the improbability factor is based on misperception or things not known.

Much of the dialog including the views of the skeptics has led me to discovery which I have been articulating in a piece meal fashion.

If one is riding the current "crest" of the wave of knowledge the ramifications and reality is simply mind boggling and bizarre when compared to status quo perception.

Several weeks ago I wrote here my developing comprehension of the possible science behind spoon bending using hot off the press knowledge and understanding, things that have only come to be known in the last decade and others in only the last year.

I will put it here again, so the historians of the future that are reading this now don’t miss it, assuming that Intent Blog will be eternally available as an archive to our future selves.

Hi historians!

hi joe.

unfortunately, you are likewise guilty of a non-sequitur.

you deny God yet conclude your post with "peace".

that doesn't follow since true peace presupposes God by default.

let me explain.

if you subscribe to the myth of human evolution (which i assume you do), you consequently subscribe to an ideology of conflict, aggression, competition, chaos, and disorder.

these are antithetical to peace.

therefore, to claim peace you are forced to borrow from the Christian worldview which can account for an absolute and unchanging Peace.

conversely, a materialist cannot account for the origin of absolute and unchanging peace in a world of chance and pandemonium.

no Jesus, no peace.

As a professional magician I will perform a disappearing act or materialize objects out of thin air. Now, I can also refer to cutting edge physics, string theory, dark matter, dark energy and what not to explain how this could be possible.

But the simple explanation is the natural explanation, either it is by explaining the magic trick or the hypnotism of the audience or the delusion and denialism of the person who believes in it.

If the observation itself is not verified properly, it is foolhardy to look for bizarre theories to explain the unobserved.

Any such (new) holographic theory of mind or quantum(entanglement) mind theory or morphogenetic fields (sheldrake) fall by Occam's razor to brain theory of science. Those who claim otherwise are ignorant of science an scientific method and endrenched in pseudoscience and wishful thinking.

Of course you can believe in spoon bending like you believe in God based on faith or as a metaphor for the power of human will. And this philosphical thinking should not be confused with science or the observed reality.

# 15
For now, spending time at the science centre or planetarium with my grandsons is much more rewarding. They are free from any supernatural dogmas and savour the world that really is.

Remote cutlery bending is a hoax no matter how you look at it.

However, under the right circumstances, hop on the New York non-stop any day of the week is no problem.

Regarding Chopra's offer to Skeptisch to come to NY and witness spoon bending for himself, I encourage him to take up on the offer.

Chopra will prove he's all talk by backing out somehow, especially if Skep invites James Randi and a camera crew along to the demonstation.

The offer was made under the condition it was at Skep's own cost to ensure he wouldn't come. I say call his bluff Skep... in fact, I'll join you at my own expense and cover yours.

I'm entirely serious.

The scientific inquiry into of parapsychology studies turned out empty handed after many promises during the past decades, including the PEAR (Princeton Engineering Anamoloy Research) laboratory (which has now closed after 3 decades of promises and failure) where they set out to collect data to prove how mere 'intentions' can change 'random' outcomes. And the decades old Virginia University Reincarnation research, where they studied more than 1500 reincarnation claims(many in Inida). But their conclusions were considered pseudoscience due to the flawed methodology . The present parapsychology researchers, in an increasing trend, come up with a little "statistical significance" as proof for existence of such phenomena as telepathy, telekinesis, prayer healing, premonitions etc... these studies again have failed so far.

Attractive, unverifiable anecdotes do not comprise "proof." One of the most arduous aspects of honest spiritual endeavor is to separate appealing chaff from grain that provides little in the way of immediate personal gratification. To put it more directly/crudely, bullshit clad in lovely raiment is still bullshit.

One must ask oneself a crucial question: am I interested in the truth of who and what we are or am I looking for a pretty story or two that makes me feel comfortable and/or exalted as I grope my way through the myriad appearances of maya? Am I interested in the end of this game or do I simply want to get better at playing it?

SPOON BENDING

Spoon Bending is an interesting phenomenon. No doubt there are many illusionists that have fascinated others by creating the illusion of bending a spoon with the mind. Of course any physical bending of a spoon does originate in the mind as intention.

What spoon benders tend to want to imply is that they are using mental force and not physical force to bend the spoon.

Typically a spoon bending experiment demonstrating the application of a “mind force” would play out as follows. We place a spoon on a table, the spoon bender expresses his intention to bend the spoon and the spoon is then observed bending. Based on the spoon benders expressing his intention to bend the spoon we could surmise that the spoon bending was not a random event but is directly tied to the spoon benders expressed intention and some non-physically transferred force was involved.

I have yet to witness the above experiment performed in my presence, I would hold that it is possible not based on what is known by science but what is not known. Based on current knowing it is not probable, however something unknown could increase it’s probability.

We should note that illusion and fantasy do not provide for practical or beneficial application, so other than entertainment, they are worthless. A scientist is really ultimately concerned with practical application and a realized benefit that can be experienced with consistency. As we could all guess a Christian fundamentalist would explain it simply as the work of the devil.

What interests me about spoon bending is that a close and trusted friend had the experience of spoon bending without the effort normally required to bend the spoon. I have no doubt that is experience was valid, but what could be behind the manifestation of this experience?

This event happened at a PK party. Now it turns out upon investigation that there is physical contact with the spoon and a mechanical transfer of energy through fiction does occur.

What is interesting is that the amount of energy transferred resulting in the bending of the spoon does not adhere to the principles of classical mechanical physics or the expectation of the spoon bender.

What we also find is a very interesting observable phenomenon experienced by the participants at the point of their success that has a correlation with a valid scientific principle, one that is relatively new associated with virtual particles.

Indicating that the mind and it’s field affect apparently acts as a quantum fulcrum or rather may alter or change causality operations at a sub atomic level.

“Virtual Particles being Consciousness”

It appears that the electromagnetic field produced by the spoon benders brain influences virtual particles in such away as to trigger a quantum tunneling effect on the spoon or other metal object, at least that is the most likely scientific parallel. There even appears to be a buildup of energy which is released. The spoon bender puts their attention on an intention (bend the spoon) and holds this for a while. When they then shift their attention, usually not intentionally, from the intention the phenomena occurs. Keep in mind virtual particles do not exist when you "look at them", but only turn up when you "turn away" they may also be viewed as a quantum bookkeeping mechanism.

Many scientists would claim that because of differences in terms of scale and interaction between quantum and classical mechanics, practical applications using mechanisms operating at the micro level would not be possible at the macro level, yet there might be a factor that does make it possible.

Of course what happens goes deeper than this.

This is a bit about virtual particles from Wiki and below that is a bit on quantum tunneling. If you read and comprehend them with the “spoon bending in mind” you may get an inspirational insightful flash as various groups of dendrites make new connections.

In physics, a virtual particle is a particle that exists for a limited time and space - so its energy and momentum values cannot be defined with unlimited precision. (Indeed, because energy and momentum in quantum mechanics are time and space derivative operators, then due to Fourier transforms their spans are inversely proportional to time duration and position spans respectively).
Virtual particles exhibit some of the phenomena that real particles do, such as obedience to the conservation laws. If a single particle is detected, then the consequences of its existence are prolonged to such a degree that it cannot be virtual. Virtual particles are viewed as the quanta that describe fields of the basic force interactions, which cannot be described in terms of real particles. Examples of these are static force fields, such as a simple electric or magnetic fields, or any field that exists without excitations that result in its carrying information from place to place.
However, the above summary is not the complete consensus view. Because virtual particles do not exist when you "look at them", but only turn up when you "turn away" they may also be viewed as a quantum bookkeeping mechanism. Many in the scientific community view them as an ad hoc abstraction that is required because our current view of reality as described by quantum mechanics is not complete. It is thought by this segment of physicists that virtual particles will no longer be required when a more complete view of quantum mechanics is integrated with general relativity and gravity in general.
In quantum mechanics, quantum tunnelling is a micro and nanoscopic phenomenon in which a particle violates principles of classical mechanics by penetrating or passing through a potential barrier or impedance higher than the kinetic energy of the particle.[1] A barrier, in terms of quantum tunnelling may be a form of energy state; analogous to a "hill" or incline in classical mechanics, which would suggest that passage through or over such a barrier would be impossible without sufficient energy. However, because of differences in terms of scale and interaction between quantum and classical mechanics, practical applications of the latter would be inaccurate.
On the quantum scale, objects exhibit wave-like behavior; in quantum theory, quanta moving against a potential energy "hill" can be described by their wave-function, which represents the probability of finding that particle in a certain location at either side of the "hill". If this function describes the particle as being on the other side of the "hill", then there is the probability that it has moved through, rather than over it, and has thus "tunnelled".
Now one other clue. The spoon benders at these PK events are actually creating friction rubbing the spoon.

Friction at the micro scale results from the Casimir effect or Casimir force.

The Casimir effect is the force that comes from “Nothing”.
The Casimir effect is the force that comes from “Nothing”.

The Casimir Force is an electric force, but its origin is different from that of ordinary electric forces. It is a purely quantum-mechanical effect arising from Zero-Point Fluctuations: a turmoil of virtual particles that come in and out of existence and that can violate the energy-momentum conservation of the system for very short periods of time, as described by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

By the way if we reverse the Casimir force we produce levitation. Which scientists are working on now.

This is from Wiki notice the “All pervasive”

In physics, the Casimir effect or Casimir-Polder force is a physical force exerted between separate objects due to resonance of all-pervasive energy fields in the intervening space between the objects. This is sometimes described in terms of virtual particles interacting with the objects, due to the mathematical form of one possible way of calculating the strength of the effect. Because the strength of the force falls off rapidly with distance, it is only measurable when the distance between the objects is extremely small. On a submicron scale, this force becomes so strong that it becomes the dominant force between uncharged conductors.

Now of course this is leading somewhere. I had no idea when I started.

Everyone keeps asking where consciousness is. Well, that is what virtual particles are in at least one context. Virtual Particles are consciousness, just a different label. VIP treatment is what we are talking about, Virtual Intelligent Particles.

The funny thing about Virtual particles is they don’t really exist anywhere, since they exist in nothing outside of space and time, yet they have a measurable effect “out there” but for all practical purposes they exist in here, at coordinates 0.0.0. It’s the same effect either way, Virtual Particles existing no where or at the point of observation in here at the point of being, Point of Presence, the present, central processing point, and also “out there” in the field of subjective infinite infinitesimal points, yet not.

This is to be expected from Orthodox Scientists to discover consciousness and label it as virtual particles. I also strongly suspect that just like physics there is a micro and a macro.

THE WATER BRIDGE.

This is a newly discovered phenomena that caught scientists by surprise.

This is a very important clue.

Here we have water floating in air without any physical support.

Click my name and read and see for your self.
www.physorg.com/news110191847.html

'water in two beakers climbs out of the beakers and crosses empty space to meet, forming the water bridge. The liquid bridge, hovering in space, appears to the human eye to defy gravity.

And that is not all. Most skeptics would claim it impossible to burn water. But we have another recent accidental discovery. But as we know there are no accidents in the universe.

Soon as this was published the scientists were skeptical, impossible they thought but when they checked it out they found it was for real.

As for it being the solution to the energy issue this is still to be discovered because as it is now it takes energy to produce the effect.

I do think it will lead to more discovery and understanding though.

Click my name for an article, or google it.

A gentleman from Erie named John Kanzius made a somewhat "shocking" discovery while he was working on a radio-wave generator he had developed for the treatment of cancer. While attempting to desalinate sea water using radio frequencies, he noticed flashes, and within a few days, had saltwater burning in a test-tube as if it were a candle. The discovery spawned interest from the scientific community, mostly concerned with whether or not the water could be used as a fuel, and of course, healthy doses of disbelief. Last week, a Penn State University chemist named Rustum Roy held a demonstration proving that the science is sound, noting that the water doesn't burn, though the radio frequencies weaken the bonds holding together the salt, releasing hydrogen which is ignited when exposed to the RF field. Mr. Kanzius and Dr. Roy say the question now is the efficiency of the energy, and are presenting the technology to the US Department of Defense and Department of Energy to investigate how useful the technology will be. Of the plentiful maybe-fuel (which apparently burns so hot it can melt test-tubes) Dr. Roy says, "This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," and (without recognition of the poetic irony, as far as we can tell), "Seeing it burn gives me chills."

By the way.

I would come to New York to video the spoon bending, but what would be more bizarre is the events that would unfold, the conversation and the phenomena that would occur. Then we could stream the video for all to see.

The Chelsea Hotel would be a good place to meet up. Perhaps we could have a spoon bending party on the roof, it has a garden.

In fact I would take this opportunity to introduce a new theory one that I have been working on since my 8th grade physics class.

One that I have been hinting at but have yet to publish because I don't know that we are ready for it.

It is disturbing, yet liberating.

Perhaps we might call it a new reality, although it has always been there, only your perception will change.

A proof of oneness.

It exposes the fundamental flaw in the foundation of physics.

Once exposed to the idea, and the demonstration no matter what you choose to “believe” you will never see the world or those around you the same way.

Like it says in Infinite Play the Movie,

"There is no travel in the Universe. When you realize that you can travel anywhere."
~Myself

I wish I could bend a spoon. I also know that if I ever get to the point where I can bend a spoon with mt mind the last thing I would ever think of doing is bending a spoon with my mind to prove my abilties.

True spoon benders do not bend spoons.

Dear Skep,

I think you should consider the merits of the offer to the Big Apple, and, should you decide in the affirmative, please let us know, I shall endeavor to make it there, if possible, to bear witness to this increidible "phenomenon." You can bet that the the cameras will be on!

Cheers!

P.S.: Dear Kate, should it come to fruition, I do very much look forward to meeting you there, at long last?

Skeptisch: it looks like you really got under Deepak's skin this time. I think his offer is meant just for you, not for all the " *us* skeptics" you mentioned in your #10, so your counter-offer of Larry King or Randi is really not applicable (in my opinion). After all, you are one of his most vocal critics, and certainly the most persistent one here at Intentblog. If you're now going to turn him down with a "Remote cutlery bending is a hoax no matter how you look at it", that doesn't sound very scientific or reasonable to me. I really do admire your persistence and the rigor behind your views and beliefs, but it appears to me that you've now got what you've been asking for, and that it's put-up-or-shut-up time.

Just my $0.02.

Click my name for

PK PARTY FORMAT AND MATERIALS REQUIRED

www.jackhouck.com/pkmf.shtml

Certain boundaries exist for a reason to create a particular playing field of experience, maintained by a shared consensus.

The phenomena of walls and doors exists because they make life more interesting.

What escapes me is this desire to return to a formless realm, having been there for eternity I can tell you that solidity is like gold.

A solid rock in my hand I feel ecstasy and standing before a mountain pure bliss, if I remember my true nature.

A true scientist knows there is no such thing as reincarnation, because there is only one being, that is all.

Everyone that ever was or will be is you; but not the “you” one thinks they are, of course every truth contradicts itself from some point.

So it's really all about hot apple pie and ice cream and that is what heaven is all about, war is hell.

I doubt you remember you are writing these words, as you read them.

Seriously, I Am just pretending from a world of "non" "sense", and in the land of make believe one will meet one soon in disguise.

Burning toast always brings us back to reality.

And if you get one of those new toasters with a smoke detector that turns it off you may never come back.

Electrons don't actually flow, and there is no salt in salt water and that is reality, not the thought of the status quo.

Yo, Richmund!

Supernatural or paranormal depends maybe in the way you look at them.

Outer-self vision as science manifestations (fascism realm)
Inner-self vision as con-science manifestations (secularism realm)

(Wisdom could be the union of these 2 realms.)

Emotional incoherences
Irrational forces
360° mind-magic, from white to black, clarity to opacity

Right now, we are all skeptics. Mastering & surfing the surface-structure.
So put it the other way, upside-down, skeptics are very important to help us to let go science-God-patterns and to enter conscience.

A strange life-room, banned by science, a full-mess...

Dear Deepak,
you're patient and generous :)

Dear Skeptisch,
what can I say... "Remote cutlery bending is a hoax no matter how you look at it" sounds just like "the earth is flat no matter how you look at it". What is there to discuss or discover when this is your frame of mind? I agree with Deepak, your attitude keeps you going round and round in your closed world, and it is starting to be really boring.

Dear Friend of Skeptisch,
you might want to take a deep breath :) It looks like you're shouting, and if so, you might end up with a headache, friend :)

Dr. Chopra, reactions are coming in from several quarters. You need to tentatively state and elaborate on what method(s) you are going to employ to prove your claims and convince.... And if you think Uri Geller is a fraud (for being caught on Tape), or not? If you believe Geller is genuine like those into truthiness and denialism in beliefs like the holocaust deniers etc..., then we can be assured of what is to be expected if and when you set out to prove your claims in NY.

***

Dr. Ronald Chusid writes at the Liberal Values blog:

"Add spoon bending to the catalog of bizarre beliefs which Deepak Chopra subscribes to. "

"I’ve had several previous posts noting how Chopra makes the same arguments against evolution* as the religious right with a little bit of new age mumbo jumbo mixed in. Chopra has also written about astrology* in a manner which demonstrates that he believes in it. In discussing spoon-bending Chopra falsely claims scientific support for his views when he states, “Once we know the explanation, its science.” He might have a valid argument if the phenomena he writes about could be verified, but his beliefs cannot pass the test of the scientific method."

"Uri Geller has been caught using trickery to bend a spoon on video."

"It is impossible to take Chopra’s writings seriously as science when he is so easily fooled by a simple stage trick and sees this as evidence that “mind and matter as inseparably one.” If this is the type of example Chopra uses to support his beliefs on mind and matter it is necessary to dismiss his conclusions as those coming from the deluded. There is much that we do not yet understand about the brain and consciousness, but this understanding will come from those who apply the scientific method as opposed to those who find evidence for their beliefs in such stage tricks."

From the blog entry Written by Ron Chusid
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=1724

------
*evolution: Chopra Embraces Bogus Arguments on Evolution
liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=1104

*astrology: Chopra Woo Versus Irresposible Astrologer
liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=1724

People question the "attitudes" and make remarks like "you are boring" ...etc, when they have nothing substantial to support their claims.

Friend of Skeptisch, makes excellent points in his post.

I hope Deepak takes up the counter challenge sincerely, with the same integrity that he expects of his detractors, and the conditions he sets forth and expects the others to adhere to. I don't think money (for paying expenses), or organizing an open event, is not a problem to Deepak Chopra. Like perhaps it is to a humble person like Sekptisch who doesn't earn his selling books or products of the faith industry. I am sure Deepak can squeeze in some time, as this event could be thoroughly publicized and moreover it is certainly central to his life's work. May be CNN or CBC or BBC will come in. This could be the point where he has reached the threshold and now it it is put-up-or-shut-up once for all.

Read the sentence as..."Like, perhaps it is('paying for expenses is a constraint') to a humble person like Sekptisch who doesn't earn his living selling(and profiting) from the sales of lucrative books and products of the faith industry."

Lib, characterizing Skeptisch as a humble person, for whom it might be a problem to organize a trip to NYC on his own, seems damned condescending.

- - - -

This thread had a lot of good-natured humor in it, at the start. Now it's all about attention-getting and ego. No one should wonder why Intentblog goes dead so often. A case study as to why can be seen right here. All the fun and open inquiry has leaked out of this thread, like air from a punctured balloon.

Here is the stated intention of Intentblog:

"...We seek to reach critical mass with a message of personal, social, environmental and spiritual wellness.

IntentBlog serves the global community by providing a platform for dialogue, debate and action around topics such as the environment, economy, conflict resolution, human rights, business and technology, spirituality, health and healing.

We use media (blogs, articles, video, audio clips, etc.) contributed by international influencers across different fields to engage a community that is respectful, active and committed to implementing change on a personal and social level. Our voices are diverse, intelligent, provocative, fresh, and timely...

...We do not tolerate comments that are disrespectful, slanderous, or generally unrelated to fulfilling a mission of collective empowerment..."

http://www.intentblog.com/about/

love, Heath

Dear Heath,

It could be that the Chopra family is very tolerant,
or it could be that they don't have the time or will
to police their own blog. It's probably a bit of both, imho.
Nice to see you! Peace!

.

I don't see this invitation as a threat.
I wish someone would offer to pay my way to N.Y.
I'd go in a flash! I've never been there.
And while were at it, I can think of two more
regulars here who are strapped for cash.
Can we start a 'fund' and bring the whole of us?
Madison Square Garden sounds wonderful!

.

God is Love. Love is a good reason for being.

.

"I know a little 'bout love. Baby, I guess the rest."

Lynyrd Skynyrd (a right-wing, Christian, southern-rock band)

.

Spooning takes two, usually bent and curled up in bed.

Dear Keith

I think it's tolerance, compassion, patience that they have. And how the guests do sometimes take advantage! Imagine such guests in one's own home! If I were as tolerant, compassionate and patient as the Chopras, I'd leave the house. :)

love, Heath

goodThursdayeveryone,

WOW...Deepak's last message to Skeptish! Too bad it is not Skeptish's and his(fellow baby skeptish's) last message about this oh, so INTERESTING subject matter. YAWN,YAWN,YAWN.

and btw...yeah, pay your own dog-garn way to NYC after all you are the one with the big stick up your butt about spoon-bending..and that goes for the restof you ..afraid to invest in you own challenges? yep. I thought so.

come on Skeptish....fork out for the ticket I am sure your baby skeptishs will pitch in!

oh, just funnin on a thrusday morining..ruth

Projected by you, dear Dhuwa (Jeez, every time I type that name, my fingers want to type Dhaba!): jealousy, rants, projections and whines, belief in spoon bending, compulsions (relationship and other) and hot dates. You've got the busy schedule right. Rather than admiration for DC, let us call it love of a kind. Rather than death bed, let us call it injury bed. Such a melodramatic mind you have, Dhawa! Your grrrrrowl sounds very tiger-y.

love, Heath

Just wanted to come in, see what the fuss was all about...

I see
I saw
I know

Love,
North

(Ref.41)
I guess hgquinn misses "humor" from people like Diablo at times like these!

Keith & hgquinn, wonder where is your pet Diablo?

He used to talk about MIA, did he become one...or was he exiled?

Keith says "Chopra family is very tolerant"
hgquinn resonates "I think it's tolerance, compassion, patience that they have." (Ref. 42, 43)

If I recall...you both were instrumental in encouraging the entity called Diablo. Now, it seems the very tolerant, compassionate hosts have lost their patience. Watch your tails. No wonder you two are the first to talk about member conduct at intentblog.

No Keith, you are mistaken, they police well enough. They know where to draw the line. More recently, Gawah and Diablo, action taken, there you go.

Fungicide

Trees and grasses
sang lullabies
to baby d-tox
retard humor(read tumor)
fungus affected shrub.
So sad, the low life
overstayed the goodwill
of the good earth.

Insider, you are doing misdirection, hai na? I said this thread started out with humor but the humor died. Why bring up people who haven't commented on this thread? Why not discuss openly who killed the humor here? Or would your mask slip if you did?

About the rest of your comment, I don't know anything about Gawah, but Diablo's an old-timer. How is it you say he's gone? Isn't he just quiet, as he is from time to time? And what makes you think I encourage Diablo? How is he a pet of mine (unless you think I'd make a pet of someone who continually bit me)? If IB is responsible for Diablo going missing, why would IB police someone like Diablo and not you? You made a whole poem up about Diablo. Why?

Dear Spoonbenders and Non-Spoonbenders,

There is a lot of energy here revolving around spoonbending or not spoonbending. Perhaps we could consider gathering all this energy, wrapping it in a bundle and focusing it on healing our communities and our Beloved Planet/Earth Mother. The focus could be tree planting, mentoring a child, or volunteering in a hospital. There are many opportunities to focus energy and transform matter. Spoonbending, in comparison, seems like child's play.

On my drive home from work last night I saw two teenagers fighting. The energy was explosive. How does one bend that pattern of anger and rage into one of peace and creativity?

Trish ~~ Laughing Waters

There is so much hacking and impersonation, multiplicity, going on here that I'm not even sure it was Deepak who posted this thread.

That is more devious and deliberately destrustive of the blog than anything the real Skeptisch might put forth.

Nevertheless, I'm grateful for it all. Nothing should be left out when honestly appraising the self who, as Richard so painstaking points out, is merely he she and it coming home.

I do wish I wasn't quite that bad!

Well said, Edmund!!

love, Heath

Deepak is becoming less and less authentic anyway. He is obviously so busy showing up around the world to keep his celebrity status that he becomes more and more "talk only". I love his books, the old ones more than the new ones, but I think that for a peace-propagator his comments are rather non-peaceful and also kind of arrogant. We are all one, yeah right. Are we? Inviting Skeptisch to NY, what´s the problem? You will see that it is not going to happen because it will be a bunch of nobodies (us) "riding" on Deepak´s fame, which is why some assistant will tell that it is not possible. Infinite possibilities, hugh?

I can balance a salt shaker on its bottom edge.

Really.

Please be sure and let me know if doing so will help ameliorate the present situation.

lol, danashelds...

Trish, through focused intention?

I SAID PLEASE BE SURE AND LET ME KNOW IF DOIN SO WILL HELP AMELIORATE THE PRESENT SITUATION.

I SAID PLEASE BE SURE AND LET ME KNOW IF DOING SO WILL HELP AMELIORATE THE PRESENT SITUATION.

Tee hee hee hee hee.

Seriously, has anyone in this blog considered that we may need to communicate to each other in baby talk once a month?

I know it sounds weird, but think about it for a little bit.

Yo, been away for awhile, interesting thread.

Someone told me once that IB was a strange place.

If find that it is. But we live on a strange place, earth.
We've been arguing about it's mysteries for as long as we became aware of ourselves.

IB is a reflection of this ongoing struggle. Like Ruth said, we'll stop fighting when we are tired of fighting.
It's okay to have different ideas about those mysteries.

Trish
Much better use of our energy.

Yo Diablo, you suck, where the hell are you?

So far being super intellegent or super spiritual have not stopped the fight no matter how much we feed them.

Other wise Carl Sagan would have been our savior or the countless gurus and priests would have enlightened us all by now.

Instead the same fight goes on.

Spoonbending also feeds it. The sensationalism will die down after either the spoon is bent or not, and the aurguments will continue, until we finally get tired of fighting.

Then those teenagers can accept thier differences instead of fight over them.

Till then, I'm goin' for a spoon I can eat with.

derek

Sweet cingulate gyri, whittah babies.

THE SPOON BENDERS PARADOX

The same principle that allows one to bend a spoon with less or no physical force using the mind would also allow the mind power of the skeptics to prevent the spoon from bending.

So in doing this experiment we could only prove whose minds were most powerful. It would not prove or disprove the ability to bend spoons.

In understanding how the matrix works, at this time, the Skeptics are really the guardians of the boundaries in which we play. It is their mind power that keeps people from walking through walls, thank goodness for that.

Bending a spoon on Larry King would be irresponsible because people would freak out. I don't know that Deepak could overide the mind power of the audience.

Deepak would immediately be classified as a THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY and whisked away to some underground laboratory or weapons research lab never to be seen again.

When we do these things for people, they immediately start to fear the person with these exceptional capabilities and act irrationally and may attempt to destroy what they perceive to be a threat.

I can't see Deepak giving up his life as he knows it just to prove this.

Still this experiment only proves whose minds are more powerful, the skeptics the boundary keepers or the spoon benders the boundary breakers.

Furthermore this experiment would only test the consensus to determine if we were collectively ready to eliminate old boundaries.

I can say with conviction that most people have little discipline or control over their thoughts and as such it would be irresponsible to allow a direct interface between your minds and the “physical” realm. So I think we will be keeping these boundaries intact except for perhaps some localized exceptions, otherwise the world would become a chaotic mess just like your minds.

So now you can see the wisdom in not allowing everyone to have spoon bending capabilities.

Wisdom prevails.

The last thing I think you would all want is to imagine a monster and have it instantly appear.

Derek, you say
"But we live on a strange place, earth.
We've been arguing about it's mysteries for as long as we became aware of ourselves."

We have been arguing about mysteries as long as they have been mysterious. We have been arguing about the earth being flat or round as long as we didn't know. As soon as the human mind understands something, the "mysticism" around it is gone, and we don't need to fight over it anymore. That is why new frontiers need to be expressed out loud and not kept a secret :) What if Copernicus, Galileo and Columbus had never opened their mouths?

We are always going to meet new mystical (unknown) territories, but we need to learn that the fight is unnecessary and counterproductive, and actually happens inside ourselves. We all have the tendency to cling to the known. Peace comes from these insights, not from keeping quiet about old news.

So in summary, the Skeptics in their wisdom would be endowed with the greater mind power to hold the current boundaries, and this is all the experiment could prove.

We need more mind discipline and meditation, look at the mess the world is in and that is with a delay on thought manifestation.

All that being said. Spoon Bending is child’s play.

Watch me create a Super Storm to get everyone’s attention.

It seems we are missing the point, that Deepak gave Skeptish an ultimatum, and an opportunity to explore "with Deeak in NY" the issue. Deepak also mentions, whether "he can or can't" but, just shut up about it" is Deepaks right, to cut a topic-issue, dead limbed debate from his blog-tree.

The fact, Deepak felt the constant harping garnished this reaction, speaks for itself... not Deepak's approach(wink!!)to the constant harrasment?

Frankly, I like the black or white approach, as it leaves no "guessing" of more questionable "middles" as to Deepak's point.

Put up, or shut up; to me, was Deepak's only option, to the nagging issue; so why and who are we, to examine Deepak's tolerance level to "it?"

respect, to both Deepak and Skeptish...
North

Ok I have here definitive proof of spoon-bending!
http://[DELINKER]www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Spoon_Bending_2/

He-he . . .

Don't forget to take out the [DELINKER] in the above link.

Peace

Hi Ron and Kate,
It would be a treat meeting you guys. Ron could give us the big picture, Kate the natural one, and we could babble about evolution and astronomy. May Deepak would join us and tell us how it all started with consciousness.

The guy most people love gave us the “Baloney Detection Kit”. It is quite a list on how not to be bamboozled.
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html
Carl knew that there are magicians who make an elephant disappear from a stage. But those guys call themselves illusionist. That is a far cry from someone claiming to bend metal with his mind and remarking, “it actually freaked him (a twelve-year-old son of some friends of the Deepak’s) out to be face to face with a reality that his culture tries to deny”.

I will jump on a plane any day if Deepak is willing to say: “I will put a spoon on a table in front of me and bend it with my mind without touching it and for the whole world to see”. But let’s not forget, all he said was “…please come to NY at your own expense and I will make sure you can experience spoon bending for yourself.”

There are millions of skeptics and critical thinkers out there and proving anything to a single one only helps a single one. So, if you really want to convince as many doubters as possible, why not call Larry and bend that spoon on his desk? I will gladly call CNN, if Deepak is ok with that.

Maybe this will lead to the honest and sincere discussion about truth, reason and evidence, so many of us are longing for.

[Let's be clear about a few things here. There seems to be a lot of non-sense being pouted by some and some are even spamming with one liners, and some with self indulgent posts and essays and are missing the central point in Deepak's post. Good to see North bringing the subject back to where it belongs.]

Whether spoon bending with mind alone(psychokinesis) is possible or not, is the question. Sine some seem to think that nothing is impossible, or anything is possible, one should be open minded to believe in any possibility. Therefore spoon bending is possible for those who are open to such possibility. While this is good philosophy, and spiritual at heart, one should easily see through the fallacy in this line of thinking when applied to spoon bending phenomena as an observed reality. ie. that there are certain things that are impossible. Spoon bending claims could be one of them.

One person who popularized spoon bending among millions with stage performances is Uri Geller, apart from displaying his many psychic powers which he ascribed to divine power and even to extraterrestrials.

So whether spoon bending is real or not is your faith and belief, the question I like to ask is would you believe the claims of Uri Geller? or would you not?

DO you think Geller is a fraud and believe that spoon bending is a real phenomena?

OR

Do you believe that Geller is not a fraud(even after being exposed by others) and spoon bending is possible?

Or

You have no opinion about Geller, and thnk Spon bending is possible?

DO you think Deepak Chopra has such psychic powers like Geller to bend spoons?

Can Deepak Chopra perform like Geller before a live audience?

If you think Geller and Deepak Chopra were/are making fools of others, who do you think is a bigger fraud?

Do you think Deepak Chopra would take up Skeptisch's challenge to show his powers on Television live show, and/or take up the Randi Challenge?

If Deepak Chopra shows such confidence that he can convince Skeptisch if he visits NY, why can't he convince a group pf scientists or Randi, or skeptics or the media?

Do you see this is as just a prank or a bluff by Deepak to keep a vocal critic like Skeptisch at bay and off his back?

~~~

"Let's not waste any more time on spoon bending."

- Deepak Chopra

I agree Bonnie, BORING! with a capital B!

Okay, if we agree to stream the event live over the Internet and everyone will sign releases and agree to commit, and agree to interviews. I will cover travel expenses and accommodations at the Chelsea Hotel for two skeptics.

I doubt that Deepak really has a need to convince anyone, and event manifestation is much more practical and more difficult than spoon bending so the true fruits of this endeavor will be the event self and the dialog and interaction between the participants. I suspect there will be high strangeness to observe.

The next step is to pick a date? What is everyone's availability?

Why Spoon Bending is boring?

'Bend it like Beckham' or is it 'Drudge it like Deepak'?

It is boring because there is nothing new to show as supporting evidence. Uri Geller created some sensationalism and performed stage and television shows, but then he was thoroughly debunked and exposed. Deepak Cannot take the same risk. And everyone knows this on the back of their heads. That's why it seems boring. The ball is in Deepak's court. And you know it will stay there till the final whistle is blown... or the game is abandoned.

Even if a spoon or steel rod does not bend, I will guarantee I can do a demonstration that will bend the minds of even the skeptics. They will even be able to repeat it themselves.

The beautiful thing about people like Deepak is that they don't go around making a fuss about what their mind can do, they teach you how to use yours and see for yourself. And they don't teach you about trivialities, but about things that really matter in a person's life and in the shaping of our collective destiny.

If I were Deepak, I would know that no Larry King spoon bending or any kind of show would ever convince anyone, only one's own experience would do. So when he writes "I will make sure you can experience spoon bending for yourself", what I hear is that he makes the generous offer to help Skeptisch experience it for himself, that means through the power of his own mind.

I agree with Deepak and many here that there are lots and lots of more interesting and useful applications of the mind-matter connection, but if I would make a last attempt to help a mind like Mr. Skeptisch' to shake off the known, I would recommend him to try to learn to do it himself. He could try with a simple instruction video where one still uses hands, it's a good start for experiencing the effect of the mind on matter.

Here is a simple tutorial for anyone who wants to play a little with his/her own mindpower. Let it be fun, and it will!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-e_45BIbsg&mode=related&search=

OK less boring I'm laughing me ass off now!
THATS funny!

First off I want to say that I know for a (fact) that it was Deepak that posted this article.
If he said that he would arrange a spoonbending demonstration for Skeptisch (if Skeptisch pays his own way to NY) then he means it.
I want to point out that Deepak didn't say whether or not it would be him personally that would bend the spoon. Mr. Skeptisch if you accept the challenge as was stated you may be given a demonstration of non-locality by...
(Yours truly).
In fact, I want that million dollars!
I have been tested by numerous scientific investigators and laboratories (under strict guidelines) for nearly 20 years.
I have recently been informed The Amazing Randi was arrested for pedophelia and that his million dollar project is a fraud.
There is a great multitude of evidence validating non-local consciousness and it is clear that no one is (truly) willing to offer up any substantial amount of money for a psychic experience.
I suspect the skeptics that post comments on this blog are 2nd or 3rd rate skeptics and are not even worthy of a response.
Moreover, no individual within Deepak's circle promotes or believes in magic of any kind.
We are all searching for reasonable answers to the mysteries of the universe.
Someone with (healthy skepticism) actively searches for answers. The skeptics that post on this blog are clearly uniformed obstacles to real truth. Only interested in personal attacks and amplifying their misguided ego's.
Todd

Friend_of_Skeptisch, in your sarcasm, you inadvertently pencil a very dark outline around one of the things the "supporters" of Skep are trying to ignore: every commenter here is a guest in DC's place called Intentblog.

If y'all went to a friend's home, would you challenge, badmouth and wisecrack about your host, as you do here? If you did, would y'all respect yourselves after the visit? Give honest answers, now. To yourselves, only.

Ya ya, freedom of speech and all. Y'all take advantage of it for yourselves, and try to shut others up with pressure tactics.

Do I respect your visits? Pretty much not. The value in what I read there in y'all's comments is soooo low, and qualities of wit, humor, lyrical writing, or whatever that might compensate for the sparse or inaccurate content almost non-existent.

This is what has been killing Intentblog over the past year.

Why don't one of you at least try a Weekly Intent? It's well known that criticism is easier than creativity, that's why. So y'all take the easy way out, telling people who are doing the real work how to do it. In the US, that's called backseat driving, and it does not get a lot of respect.

love, Heath

If you can bend yourself, that is the greatest proof of the non-local expression that we are. Why would want to get someone bending spoons on CNN? If you don't like what Deepak preaches about - why don't you prove it yourself? Does that mean that all spoon bending wizards have crossed into a domain we don't know about? Isn't what you have been typing on your keyboard a expression of your formless thoughts?

If you truly believe what you doubt, don't think of SPOON when you are Doubtful and think of a SPOON when you are not.

Some people seem to show high intolerance levels, narrow mindedness, egocentrism and arrogance, especially those who consider themselves to be spiritual.

Some people seem to throw strings of critical words at others, to distract the rest of the IB readers from the fact of their own childish and/or egocentric behavior. And when they don't get their way, they seem to growl, huff and puff, throw fits, blog-spam, over-intellectualize, over-rationalize, self-excuse, and/or get icey, especially those who consider themselves to be superior to others.

What kind of spoon bending? Why CNN? How will Deepak convince Skeptisch(what methods)?

Deepak is talking about spoon bending as a telekinesis phenomena, a observable phenomena which 'can' be studied by science as he himself claims in his post, not as 'perceptive of mind symbolism' or a metaphor, like some seem to be confusing with, and assuming it to be, in their ignorance.

I must say, look at the action on this thread. Deepak's generous heart and humor opened the door to this. Hey, guys, can't you see you're longing for recognition and connection? In other words, you want love...??

love!! Heath

"Humor is the last resort of a hypocrite"

Even George W Bush can humor his way out in confronting his detractors.

Change your perspective (like imagining the spoon is bent) and you will see heartfelt humor where you find cynicisms, and vice versa.

"Humor is the last resort of a hypocrite"

Even George W Bush can humor his way out in confronting his detractors.

Change your perspective (like imagining the spoon is bent) and you will see heartfelt humor where you find cynicisms, and vice versa.

I bet Dee is laughing at all this hoopla he's created! How could he not be? its super duper funny!

You guys are getting all upset, He can bend spoons GREAT he can't bend spoons GREAT!

It would be cool to see, and know that is totally possible.

So Richard make sure you get some good video.

And tell that Beautiful man I said "HEY" when you see him...

Love

Dearest Hyp, here are a few other quotes on humor and one on ridicule. I'll give you the ridicule one first:

"Ridicule is generally made use of to laugh men out of virtue and good sense, by attacking everything praiseworthy in human life." -- Joseph Addison

Now for others' thoughts on humor:

"A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs -- jolted by every pebble in the road." -- Henry Ward Beecher

"Humor [is] something that thrives between man's aspirations and his limitations. There is more logic in humor than in anything else. Because, you see, humor is truth." -- Victor Borge

"Righteous people have no sense of humor." -- Bertolt Brecht

"The person who can bring the spirit of laughter into a room is indeed blessed." -- Bennett Cerf

"No mind is thoroughly well organized that is deficient in a sense of humor." -- Samuel Coleridge

"Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children." -- Kahlil Gibran

"Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. And the self-same well from which your laughter rises was often-times filled with your tears." -- Decartes

"With the fearful strain that is on me night and day, if I did not laugh I should die." - Abe Lincoln (tho a Prez, he was no GWB!!)

- - - - - - -

And a final quote... which is, I think, very parallel in spirit to Deepak's offer to Skeptisch:

"Evelyn slapped Raymond on the back with a laugh. 'You must be starved old friend. Come into my apartments, and we'll suffer through a deep breakfast of pure sunlight.'" -- Sri da Avabhas

love, Heath

Put yourself in Deepak's shoes for a minute.
This is his daughter's blog and it's purpose and creation is for the betterment of mankind.
Then there are those that deliver personal attacks (full well knowing they can remain anonymous) for their own personal amusement. Kind of like having rats running around in a beautiful garden. Now if I had a daughter that operated such a blog (website) and there were such people infecting it like a cancer I would not be pleased about such circumstances. All of this conversation is a diversion away from the noble purpose of the blog.
What gets me is that Skeptisch himself apparently loves posting on the blog. In fact, this blog is his preference (not one designed for skeptics).
That tells me that he is a rat with sick ulterior motives for being on this blog.
Todd

Friends

In case no one has been looking, the price of all metals have gone through the roof, including silver. So stop messing with the silverware, already.

It is hard as heck to eat gumbo with chopsticks.

Originality heather, originality!

That quote on humor was penned by yours truly...JIT

Thanks for the humor quotes.

Friend_of_Skeptisch (#87) now, that's (relevant) humor!

Bonnie!:D:)
You might like this
http://www.myspace.com/gumbospace

Aurora

You are amazing! I was just sitting here thinking all this stuff would make a great blues tune.

:)

Bonnie

Yeheheyes, Bonnie! It's in the air :D

Todd(Level7): "he(skeptisch) is a rat with sick ulterior motives for being on this blog"

Skep has made genuine bonds with many members of this community over the past two years or so, which this person cannot brag about.

It is also a known fact,(for those who have been here for long,) that Deepak loves Skep. Deepak has expressed this feelings openly in the past. Which is rare given he rarely interacts on a one-to-one basis with the community members.

Maybe this name calling blograt is plain jealous.

Let's pardon him. What say you all IBers?

Dear Deepak and Skeptisch,
I really would love to meet you both - and no better place than NYC in Autumn!
~ Kate

Let me assure Deepak, I will be in New York at his convenience.

Bravo Skeptisch!

Ashwini, there's nothing to pardon. Everyone here is trying to love something or someone in the best and highest way they can. No rats and nothing to pardon. We're all human :)

Dear Hyp and F-o-S

Your reactions tell me the quotes on humor hit their marks.

Hyp, the convention when quoting is to enclose the quote text in quote marks, and give an attribution. When one sees something in quotes within someone's text, it gives the signal that the words are not by the author. Writers and thinkers like Descartes and Abe Lincoln are unoriginal? My quoting them is?

F-o-S, three shots at getting attention with the same essential but ever-fading message allows inference of either wishing or OMR.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UsODsSfgo2k -- for those who love...

Autumn in New York -- by Frank Vernon

Autumn in New York, why does it seem so inviting?
Autumn in New York, it spells the thrill of first-nighting.
Glittering crowds and shimmering clouds in canyons of steel;
they’re making me feel: I’m home.

It’s autumn in New York that brings the promise of new love.
Autumn in New York is often mingled with pain.
Dreamers with empty hands may sigh for exotic lands;
It’s autumn in New York;
It’s good to live it again.

Autumn in New York, the gleaming rooftops at sundown
Autumn in New York, it lifts you up when you’re let down
jaded roués and gay divorcées who lunch at the Ritz
will tell you that it’s divine

It’s autumn in New York transforms the slums into Mayfair
Autumn in New York, you’ll need no castle in Spain
Lovers that bless the dark
On benches in Central Park
Greet autumn in New York,
It’s good to live it again

love, Heath

Sorry!! Autumn in New York was written by Vernon Duke!

love, Heath

Skep is one of a small number of bright lights on this blog!

One of the hallmarks of this gentleman is his no-nonsense consistency. Over the 30 months or so since the inception of this forum, Skep has endeared himself to many of his fellow bloggers and is well respected by many.

Regrettably, to associate him with the word "rat" is a faux pas and should be forthrightly withdrawn with an apology. I am sure we can all engage in healthy dialogue without resorting to such vicious levels of personal attacks. It is vastly counterproductive!

Having said that, it is the natural right of every man to defend himself accordingly if or when attacked.

Skep, Deepak might use the anecdote about your experience at NYC in his future books. He might use this experience to paint the skeptics as narrow minded people who close their eyes and ears to the splendor of spoon bending, even when they are spoon fed these insights into their mind.

On the other hand you can tell your side of the story and you might get a good audience too.

#106, I was bragging about my originality, that's all. The effect was intended with the use of 'quotes', so as to give an impression that it is worth-quoting quote from someone important.

Well said, Ron!

If everyone here would understand that what we say reveals our own mind in all its splendor... this might remain a very quiet place :)))))
And if we then found out we are not the mind, we would probably start talking again, lol...

#110, intentional deception then?

Well...you may call it that. If the sentence is not in quotes, it mayn't come across with the intended punch.

This would work:

"Humor is the last resort of a hypocrite" -- Hypocrite, 3 Oct 2007

114, addendum

...,i.e. interpreted solely based on the content of the sentence, and no as a quotable quote.

"Humor is the last resort of a hypocrite" --Hypocrite, not(yes-one), should be a better attribution.

Does Skep have a hot-line or what? You know...

one of those red phones that one keeps handy

in case there's an intelligence emergency?

How do you guys and gals show up so fast?

That's a mystery to me...scientifically inform me, please, if you know.

.

This confrontation ain't gonna happen, and I think we all know it.

I'm from the "Show-Me" State, and I'd much rather

witness first hand any and all extraordinary 'happenings'.

I can't believe it till I see it 'in person'.

I don't know if there's such a place as NYC.

I believe there is, but I've never been there, so I can't be 'sure'.

Then again I'll admit I perceive things very subjectively.

I, myself, have been bent out of shape for some time now.

Practice makes perfect.

Can a brother get an expense-paid ticket to NYC to act as mediator or as a "conflict resolution specialist"!?!?!?

Ok, ok . . .

Resident forlorn red-headed (in truth blonde actually!) step-child standing in my cybernetic corner with a wry hint of a smile on me lips . . .

Nice to see the regulars all chiming in, and is that Bhagwan posing as many others again?!?

Peace all

After much thought, doing this spoon-bending demo on Larry King appears to be the best and most practical option, as it would be seen by a worldwide audience who, for practical reasons, cannot all make it to NYC!

For good measure, I would suggest that both Deepak and Skep appear on the show!

Rgds.

Speak of the devil...1/2 of 666

Uhh one, and a two and a...just kidden, Ron ; )

T.V. sucks! I've seen David Copperfield make a plane disappear on the screen!

Surely not...

Remember Dostoevsky, Craig?

A kiss...

It is most certainly true that there is nothing you can experience that is supernatural. I happen to know this as fact from many scientific and also deeply spiritual experiences that I will not go into here.

All things that we can experience in the general sense are a result of a combination of different factors. Cultural Understanding, Life time experience, Physical Variables; such as the state of our physical senses coupled with the interpretation of what is sensed. Pretty much the attributes that make up the balance of ones mind has a lot to do with how we percieve the world; or not even the world but the enviroment that we are/or choose to belong to; right now in this moment of time.

All things we are exposed to is natural because it is the nature of God; What is the nature of God?... It is the nature of your very conciousness. Even the enquiry into what I have just stated is the very same nature. Understand first and foremost that there is nothing but God even if it is obscene or negative; It is the Nature of the divine miracle of all possibilities.

There are countless permutations and states of consciousness this is because.....

This is because.... This is because This is Because.

there are as many permutations of answers as there are questions concerning God or the presence of consciousness, the source of all that is, the one experiencer of everything, Allah, jesus, Buddah or what ever you wish to name it by.

If you know that there is only god and all things that happen are possible by that divine spark of any reality you choose to comprehend, then the questions and answers fall away.

God is not another

God is not supernatural.

God is not even Extra Ordinary

God is not even a spectacle, it is all of these things and more. Know this in your heart of hearts, Soul of Souls and you will find the Understanding of Understandings.

Love Simon xx xx

I could sure use a big hug 'bout now.

This drab weather of late, geez.

Short days, short tempers...

short stuff particularly.

You people get smaller

and smaller. Pretty

soon I'll have to

stoop so low I

see the face

of God!

Whoa!

UT2

**
--

Geez, off and on, I have to come peep this thread, and check out the latest.

I burst out laughing, when I realized what has happened!!

If the spoon is not the mind,
but the mind is the spoon...

I DO believe, Deepak has succeeded(once again) to bend everyone's "mind-spoon" the past couple days.

Oh.. I can't stop the belly-laughing...at Deepak's genious on this one!! (wink)

Love,
North

Dear Hypocrite,

You are one of those few whose posts resonate and it is a pleasure to read them!

Cheers, mate!

hmm.. make that errored in #129

"if the mind is the spoon"

whew!(grin)

hey,, I bent too eh!

Dear Steve

Re #118, Deepak had over 100 comments on a post less than a month ago, and since then he's posted five blogs about spirituality, well-being or politics, with three of the five getting more than 50 comments each.

Isn't the issue of spoon-bending and Skep related to Skep's frequent use of the term as a blanket to cover all of Deepak's spiritual approach, particularly as it connects with science?

Dear all

Why isn't it OK for Deepak to rag Skep as hard as Skep rags Deepak? Why is it OK for Skep to come down hard on Deepak, but not the reverse? It seems to me that both are able to hold their own, and both have big hearts and minds. I don't know if anyone needs to defend Skep, anymore than anyone needs to defend Deepak.

When I read Deepak's post, I was laughing because of his humorous approach, and proud that he'd addressed Skeptisch directly, which really does make Skep the hero of the hour.

Why there's been so much noise about it is obvious when you realize that every single comment that seriously takes Deepak to task about his post to Skep is from a man. It's about ego display and attention-seeking (and maybe a little envy, or maybe a lot of it, actually). None of it has much to do with either Deepak's or Skeptisch's positions; their positions are just the key that unlocked the door to the comment behaviors.

love, Heath

WOW Heath that was impressive! double Dah!

Love it!

Heath,

Re your #132 refering to #118. you write...

"Re #118, Deepak had over 100 comments on a post less than a month ago, and since then he's posted five blogs about spirituality, well-being or politics, with three of the five getting more than 50 comments each."

You seem to have overlooked the fact that the current 133 comments have taken place over just 2 days. What's the time period for the 100, and 5 x 50 comments Deepak has generate on the other posts you mention?

Gotta hand it to Skep... he has generated more interest and traffic here than the guru and his friends/family combined. Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that's the last thing on his mind as there is nothing in it for him. Deepak on the otherhand...

Hey, here's a thought... perhaps Skep is an imaginary blogger create by the site admins as Deepak's alter ego, for the purposes of generating traffic and interest?

Sure hope they meet in person in NY for the spoon bending event, and that the cameras catch them both in the same room together to prove they are not the same person.

Hi Heath,

Oops, forgot one thing... Re your #12...

"to continually compare DC with Uri Geller is like saying an orange is a soccer ball."

...who's the orange and who's the soccer ball?

Dear S-o-S,

To get real, we need to count individuals commenting, not comments. If I set up 20 ID's and post on the other side, DC will sure have a lot of support counter to Skeptisch, and I'll be able to make the same claim you make in #134, but I'll still be a single voice weighing in.

Also, we need to look at the posting environment. Everyone was starved for something to read and say, hai na? Whereas in previous weeks, there was a lot going on here. So does that devalue each individual comment on this thread?

If Skep is phony, so am I -- he rings too true. But there are others... :).

Btw, 16 of the previous 134 are mine, and when's the last time I commented even three times in an entire week?!? That's more than a month's worth of comments from me, yet I was saying the same thing, just 16 different ways, each time.

Others, too, have made multiple comments that say the same thing.

I was not coming in because of Skep, I was coming in because the voice(s) against DC were unfair. I've come in on other threads, at similar volume, for the same general sense that balance was missing., i.e. that dialog was turning into monologue.

What do you think? DC is the orange, of course.

Accha Tami, I'm glad I made you smile.

love, from Heath here in bahut cool NYC

I have yet to read any Dostoevsky brother Keith, but I know I need to.

Even have a copy of The Brothers Karazomov collecting dust . . .

Sheesh!

Peace

Wow ... that's a good one and I am glad Deepak eventually defended himself....cool! Can you guys video tape it and put it here :-)

Love, Char

Well, I got to #21 and I am now too tired to stay at work and need to go home.

But I wanted to say that if folks do not believe in the beauty of magic, then they might be missing out. I call it magic, because we don't really understand it and spoon bending seems like a mystery and beyond our physical capability, but it is not.

Anyway, I will catch up on this post as I am finding it and all the comments very interesting. So thanks for sharing all.

I will share a quick story, once again here and I have many, but this one relates to spoon bending and I kid you not.

So of the old chopra.com group that liked to blog several years ago, go planned a special time for spoon bending as a group. I did not participate as far as I know, but my thoughts were with them, but not for them as I felt it a silly waste of time, even though I believed it possible.

When I got up that morning, all the spoons in my house were slightly bent! They were bent far enough to where I had to straighten them out to use them properly.

Well, now I really have to go as security is eying me.

Love, Char

We have woven a vibrant fabric of community through our thoughts, feelings and words around spoonbending. The cloth holds our shadow-selves and it holds our light-selves. If I see or hear ego in you my ego is being reflected/bended. If I see or hear respect in you my self-respect is being reflected/bended. We are mirrors for each other. We are a de-lightful community. Love more...demand less and watch the fabric levitate.

Trish ~~ Laughing Waters

Hey Trish, that's my kind of post, I can follow that!

Ed @ Trickling Waters

goodFridayeveryone,

just have a minute...but to those who think that Skep...brought in soooooo many comments to this particular post of Deepak's...you know that many are one and the one are many..SPAMMERLAND! so this arugment does not hold any water at all.. and then

Steve writes,"I may disagee with Skep on many issues, but I would never tell him that he is a boringly repetitious."

Actually, awhile back I told him to grow up and act like the man he is instead of always coming to IB and accusing Deepak on Deepak's own site of being unethical and a charlatan to boot. Yes, your dear Skeptish...decides to constantly harass Deepak instead of just leaving the site if he disagrees with it so much.. then he has his posse of spammer folks make like he has a fan club of agreeable vocies to back him up....this is just crapola childish game playing from someone who does not know how to disagree in an adult mature manner...he is a game player....yes, Skeptish and posse, I am laying it on you...because unlike you I can admit that I have been and probably will contine to be...at times...boringly repititous in some of my comments...but Skeptish's spoon bending and his accusing Deepak Chopra of being unethical and a charlatan....are incredibly boorish and repititous...and simply childish and mean spirited, IMHO....so sure pat him on the back and encourage this childish behaviour even more...one child to another...

bye ruth

as I said before, I think became more "celebrity" than anything else and is meanwhile so concerned with his presentation and to keep his celebrity status that I bet he won´t accept the challenge. Especially because he would allow a nobody to get on TV through him.

I said it before, Deepak is loosing it because he is not authentic anymore. He became a mass spoon bender rather than stick to truly living the infinite possibilities and synchronicities stuff

Re 142 and others... writing-off comments that are not in line with your views and beliefs as "childish spam" is a very weak, close-minded rebuttal to all this. An alternative explanation is that the semi-rational people among you have simply been pushed too far to accept certain outlandish claims without some form of (reasonable) evidence. Also, spammers typically don't hang around for months, even years, and engage in spirited, intellectual debate with the other side. The funny thing is, the stuff you call spam is so much more enjoyable and thoughtful than some of the pontifications from the “non-spammers” among you.

Well said, Son.

***

When is the event at NYC tentatively going to be scheduled?

***

REQUEST TO DEEPAK CHOPRA

*************************

Deepak, please inform us about the dates, so that we can make our preparations and follow the event with keenness.

I also request you to consider an OPEN INVITATION no just for Skeptisch(or skeptics) but for anyone who is interested and is willing to make it to NY City.

*************************

Regards,
Steve

What a pity!

The scribbler of post 142 should perhaps take a much needed hiatus from this forum. After logging on here this morning, it was rather unpleasant and somewhat disconcerting to read her ridiculously bitter and nauseatingly inflammatory rant, never mind her unwarranted besmirching of a fellow blogger.

Instead of unleashing such pent-up, counterproductive venom, she would be well-advised to work on her deplorable grammar. Notice how she spells argument, repetitious, continue, voices etc. And she opens her rant by saying, “good Friday everyone”. Well, it does not appear that she is having a Good Friday, after all!

Old habits die hard
Intellect dies first

You can anticipate a lengthy post from a Newyorker. The ego is too large to contain.

***

I welcome Deepak's initiative and his spoon bending beliefs in open. I hope he doesn't shy away from his offer to convince a critic.

Who is Todd?
I am not a guru.
I am not religious.
I am interested in scientific discovery.
I am not an attention seeker in fact I am shy.
I respect all forms of life.
I respect the fact that Skeptisch loves his grandchildren and wants them to learn scientific reasoning.
I have feelings like anyone else.
I am a seeker of truth.
I don't even fully understand myself let alone anyone else.
I make mistakes and learn from them.
I am brutally honest.
Deepak is my dearest and best friend and I love him.
Deepak's grandchildren will oneday read this blog
Todd

Hello All,

Ref. 152 by Level7
No one asked Level7 to brag about himself and his qualities (once again).

"I am brutally honest."

One can be brutally honest and still be pathetically ignorant.

"I make mistakes and learn from them."

The first thing one does is to apologize when one realizes that the line has been crossed.

Humility or even minimum decency seems to be missing from his "I AM..." qualities.

"Deepak is my dearest and best friend and I love him."

Of course we all(many of us here) 'love' him(and can of course disagree with him on many issues.)

Notice the superlatives "dearest and best"... This person is behaving like the fanboy who idolizes a celebrity. He seems to have some emotional imbalances. Maybe due to dearth of real friends in normal life. "dearest and best" indicates that one doesn't have anyone as important as Deepak in life, including all blood relationships and friends. (this indicate that . as someone suggested, a deep hidden "jealousy" factor could be working here in the way he reacted to Skeptisch and Deepak's more than 2 year relationship in which Deepak expressed his love to Skep.)

"Deepak's grandchildren will one day read this blog"

Notice the 'Appeal to Emotions' here?

We can be rest assured that Deepak's grandchildren would be much more aware and emotionally stable (than Level7, with his ignorance, intolerance, narrow mindedness, rants and name calling on this blog) to comprehend the content when they do read it.

divya

This is superb Deepak!

If you haven't noticed it yet,... Skeptisch had accepted your offer after his initial hesitation and counter challenges.

Looking forward for the exciting things and revelations that are going to unfold!!

love, divya

One day we are all bound to wake up and see how our wounds spread poison all around. Listen inside, dear people, and when it hurts, please don't pass it on someone else. Whatever insults we spread around, they come from inside of ourselves. We are revealing our own pain, it is ours, only we can heal it. Passing it on will not diminish it, on the contrary. Deep down no one wants more hurt in this world.

Dear Deepak,
I hope this will not be your last message to Skeptisch.

"All observed phenomena, if accurate, are natural and normal. We call something supernatural or paranormal when we can't explain it. Once we know the
explanation, its science."

What would be an example of -inaccurate- observed phenomena? (assuming it has not been tampered with).

love,
~ Kate

None of this conversation about spoonbending has any relevance or importance whatsoever.
The cup of ignorance runneth over on this thread.
Quite a collection of idiots commenting here repeating the same thing many times over like a broken record. It's a wonder that some of you (Divya, Patricia, Dhuwa etc) even know how to operate a computer and type in a comment.
I'm through here.
The more you stir in shit...
The more it stinks!

Hey Edmund, #141: Thanks for making that connection water to water. Reminds me of that "water bridge" that someone was sharing way back when in this blog story. Now, that was fascinating. Electro-magnetism is like water is it not?

Hey Todd, #152: I appreciated you sharing who you are heart to heart. At least that's how it came through to me.

This blog community is generating an energy field and vibration. How are we all doing?

Trish ~~ Laughing Waters

THE IRONY OF SPOON BENDING BELIEF

"What would be an example of -inaccurate- observed phenomena? (assuming it has not been tampered with)." Kate to Deepak in post 162

How about 'spoon bending' with psychokinesis?

One can be deluded to believe that a spoon has been bend by mind waves, while it is not based on an 'accurate' observed reality.

Yo Guys it's obvious Deepak is not going to respond to you.

The feeding frenzy on this thread is dying out and so will the spoon bending.
If your purpose in life is to debunk charlatans then you will probably have to feed somewhere else cause the bait is gone.

I would love to see a few spoons bend on a table but it wont change my life or how I view this mysterious and awe inspiring world. It would just be another mysterious experience.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Deepak to take you guys up on your challenge to see it live on Larry King.

I believe whether he bends a spoon or not the sensationalism will die out and we will be on to new sensationalsim. Sensationalism is the junk food of the masses.

I think Skeptisch taking his, was it his children or grand children, to the planterium is a much better use of energy.

But yo if Deepak does decide to bend a few spoons for us that would be fun too, but not life changing.

peace comes from the museum of science and the mysteries of our strange and beautiful blue marble

derek

Janet,
You forgot to mention your crusade to have me banned from Intent.blog which failed by the way.
You and your lot dish out harsh criticism freely.
Yet when someone like me comes along and gives it right back to you all of a sudden some horrific crime has been committed. That is hypocrisy in it's essence.
Your circle of skeptics and hypocrites have been attempting to put me on some kind of a mock trial for my ego (laughs).
Maybe you should lobby congress and attempt to make displays of ego a crime.
But then where would that put you?
Behind bars?
Please!

the scribbler returns to the forum with a chuckle and a smile....#150 makes my day....thank you much..my fan.

goodfriday everyone,,ruth

People with the ability to have blind belief in something (in this case spoon bending), typically pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe. To them, facts or evidence are trivial or irrelevant to making the case for something. Someone’s word in a book or blog is enough to deem it to be true. Often, these people have grown up in an environment which trains them from very young to resist the need for fact and evidence, and to blindly believe in something (e.g. an organized religion of some sort).

Whether this belief has them believing in a god, a guru, the boogie man or spoon-bending, there is little that will convince a person with blind belief that something isn’t true, if they do not want to believe it is not true. They are too heavily invested in what the answer is.

On the other side, you have the skeptics who have difficulty believing anything without reasonable facts and evidence.

Bottom line, there are those that require no facts or evidence to believe something, while others need facts or evidence to believe something, and what is happening here is an exchange between these two camps.

On one extreme side you have the skeptics, who view Chopra as a charlatan who makes false claims about things like spoon bending, and who takes advantage of his gullible and weak-minded followers for his own personal benefit (e.g. wealth, power, etc.). The skeptics have a desire to expose this.

On the other extreme side, you have the Chopra camp, faithfully defending their leader and beliefs from what they feel are harsh attacks by the skeptics. This side has less of a need for fact and evidence than the skeptics, and likely has strong reasons for believing in spoon bending and whatever else they believe in.

The recent activity here, and the passionate nature in which these two sides are posting here, is the result of both sides seeing an opportunity to “win” this ongoing “war” through a spoon bending demonstration which Chopra has offered to provide to Skeptisch.

The skeptics hope this will expose Chopra as a charlatan. And the Chopra followers hope they can finally shut the skeptics up. Unfortunately this will not happen, and both sides will be disappointed.

The reason is, regardless of whether he is a charlatan or not, Chopra won’t follow through with his offer to Skeptisch.

While the skeptics among us may feel a small sense of victory and think this supports the view that Chopra is not a man of his word (a charlatan), the Chopra camp will passionately defend his actions with a variety of reasons for backing out.

And in the end, who will really wins? The Chopra camp… because with all the activity this debate is causing, and the website traffic and exposure it is creating, Chopra is getting richer. Amongst the visitors there are both skeptics AND followers, and both are potential purchasers of his books.

Pretty funny. Well done Deepak.

Son_of_Skeptisch
Then there are people like me who do not subscribe to either side.

Janet
I do hope Deepak will respond, but how could he be so busy when his reputation is at such stake? Yo, the complex life of a celebrity.

Maybe Son_of_Skeptish right, books, books,books. Although this kind of discussion does not motivate me to buy one of his books.

derek

Actually I agree with the person who said this conversation doesn't really mean anything. The only meaning that can be garnered from all this is the meaning each individual person assigns to it, depending on their own perspective.

If you are looking for negativity, you will find it in abundance. If you are looking for positive energy, you will also find it in abundance here.

As easy as it is to criticize people and situations that frustrate us, it is my opinion, we do our ownselves a disservice to do so. It is important to see good in all our outer-world reality.

There is a percepttible energetic shift that takes place when we choose to see the good in all and the unnecessary tension that comes into being when we dwell on negativity fades away and is replaced by sympathetic tolerance.

I have the greatest admiration and respect for the tolerance and spiritual inclusiveness of Mallika and her father on Intent blog.

Just my thoughts before the weekend. And it is a nice Autumn weekend where I am. Hope you all enjoy it wherever you are.

Love
Bonnie

To all the skeptics on this thread...

How amazing that nobody realizes that the responsibility of finding answers to your own questions is yours, not someone else's. If you want proof, then go experiment, take a class, try things for yourself, do something other than insulting people who know what they're saying. And if someone offers you help in your OWN quest, then you might remember to say thank you for their generous offer. It is simple courtesy. None of us is entitled to someone else's time and attention. Not to mention good will...

Good night, people of this world. May we all grow in wisdom.

Goodnite Aurora...

I am going to toast wisdom, beauty and harmony!

Love
Bonnie

Cheers Bonnie :) For the time when everything is music!

If spoons are indeed bendable by the mind, then maybe there is a Santa Claus, after all, who can enter the house through the chimney or a keyhole while the little ones are blissfully asleep!

Infantile consciousness is capable of making accurate observations.

The rest of us can only wish for a clean slate.

Re: 182... "How amazing that nobody realizes that the responsibility of finding answers to your own questions is yours, not someone else's."

While I agree with the statement, this is not about finding answers to your own questions; it's about substantiating claims of spoon bending by Chopra.

It's about Chopra addressing Skeptisch in the title of this tread, offering him a spoon bending demonstration, Skeptisch accepting the offer, and Chopra then ignoring him.

Bottom line, by posting directly to Skeptic on his Blog then ignoring him, Chopra is demonstrating his skills as the ultimate troll.

(Wikipedia: An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.)

To be fair, it is his own discussion forum :)

Deepak: " Dear Skeptisch, please come to NY at your own expense and I will make sure you can experience spoon bending for yourself..." Oct. 03.

Skeptsch: "Let me assure Deepak, I will be in New York at his convenience." Oct. 04.

NB: Deepak has not yet redponded to Skep, perhaps he will in due course!

If Deepak chooses to ignore Skeptisch, he will have lost credibility, in my view!

Pardon my French in advance .... but I am part French, so I will play a pun.

IT'S LIKE A FART.

ONE CANNOT CONTROL.

IT COMES ON IT'S OWN,

WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT.

Again, pardon my French.

Love, Char

EAT THE HEART OF GOD,

CONTROL WHAT COMES OUT.

THE WIND CAN BE,

AS FRAGRANT AS A ROSE.

In the Bible, it states that God made us a little lower than the Holy Angels. What is natural to GOD, can be natural to us, as we develop our wings and fly in the Heavens. We are not far from this and have great power, which is beautiful. In Love, we become co-creators with God.

Time to go home.

Love, Char

Uri Geller on NBC Reality show "Phenomenon" this Halloween.

I hope Deepak does something similar on CNN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5sRA6typn4

NBC's new Uri Geller/Criss Angel 'Phenomenon' to debut October 24

"NBC has announced Phenomenon, a new reality competition series that will follow mentalist Uri Geller and Criss Angel Mindfreak illusionist Criss Angel as they search for "the next great mentalist," will premiere on Wednesday, October 24 at 8PM ET/PT.

"...with 10 contestants competing each week and having their acts tested through a series of challenges in-front of a panel of celebrity guest judges as well as a studio audience."

"While Geller and Angel assist the Phenomenon contestants as well as provide their insight, home viewers will be the ones who vote to determine which act eventually claims the show's $250,000 grand prize following its five-week broadcast run."

"To be able to showcase the unique talents of this stunning and mysterious genre on live television, where absolutely anything can happen, ups the ante enormously," said Craig Plestis, NBC's executive vice president of alternative programming.

"We hope viewers will watch with their friends and talk about and debate what they see, making this a truly interactive television experience,"

www.realitytvworld.com/news/nbc-new-uri-geller-criss-angel-phenomenon-debut-october-24-5841.php

FoS,
whose to say
which way the coin will land
if we toss it
call out
heads or tails ...
will Deepak and Skeptisch
one day meet
?

I'm just
'Sleepless in Seattle'
and I am willing
to wait
love,
~ Kate

"I'll take whatever she's having."

Dear Janet,

in #188 you say "There is golden rule, the burden of proof rests with the person who makes the claim."

On the surface maybe. But honestly, when was the last time you believed something someone else told you? Or something someone else did :) The mind immediately goes: it was a trick.

The only way to shake up one's own mind is to do such experiments yourself, with complete honesty and impeccability, and even then, watch your mind go "no, it can't be!", lol... Fortunately, sometimes we just have to accept something new into our mind-map, but it is much easier to overcome the resistance if we do it ourself.

If you ever want to get beyond belief or skepticism, if you have any sincere curiosity and not just the desire to confirm what you know, then learn to do it yourself. It is a completely irrelevant activity, but like the careless play of a child, it can give you a lighthearted taste of expansion.

Dear Son of Skeptisch,

in 191 you write:
"While I agree with the statement, this is not about finding answers to your own questions; it's about substantiating claims of spoon bending by Chopra."

I don't know, friend, but I wouldn't want to spend my life proving or disproving other people's claims, I would definitely want to ask my own questions and find my own answers. If anything someone else finds inspires me, then I go ahead and do my own research, but ... time is precious, I wouldn't want to spend it standing on the shore, shouting at those who have fun sailing :)

You also write:
"It's about Chopra addressing Skeptisch in the title of this tread, offering him a spoon bending demonstration, Skeptisch accepting the offer, and Chopra then ignoring him."

This is your interpretation, not a fact. There are surely at least ten other ways of interpreting this whole matter, and drawing conclusions based on interpretations is what often leads us to conflicts and dead ends. It is a pity, because respect, allowing of another's perspective and sincerity of intent can often lead to wonderful friendship and growth for everyone.

Excuse me but how is Deepak Chopra a charlatan? He does not claim to have performed miracles, does not claim to be a medium, does not force people to agree with him or to contribute to this blog. (Though mediums may well exist who are we to proclaim otherwise? And miracles may well happen. Anything that is not explained by the rudimentary science that we have is indeed a miracle. There are a lot of those around if you read scientific publications)
If one witnesses a so called 'paranormal' occurence one has to acknowledge it in true spirit of science and then set about finding an explanation for it. Spoonbending may or may not actually take place (since I haven't witnessed one) but lot of unexplained phenomena do occur. Denying existence of uncomfortable facts does not do good to anyone. Scientific community has an unfortunate tendency to wield Occam's razor rather too freely and falsify anything that doesn't fit into their neat worldview. The universe has rather too many mysteries to be unravelled yet. Science doesn't know it all you know. First thing a scientist needs to cultivate is an open mind. Knowledge doesn't come to closed minds. People who try to combine many different ways of finding truth (ie holists as opposed to reductionists) are more likely to find it than people who stick to one method only and make it their religion. Scepticism is very seductive. It does not involve any effort to get to the bottom of truth, only to falsify anything anybody comes up with.

SPOON BLEND

While you are
sleepless in Seattle,
it is raining: You got
mail! Skep is waiting
in Vancouver - cold,
in dark -- Deepak on a
book tour. In Newyork,
a promise. An affair
to remember...
PK party downtown,
bored in Boston.
Matrix replay,
Neo says:
"The spoon...
like the rest
of the world
is an illusion.”
I say mix
a tea
spoon of
orange juice
or a peg
of fanta
or margarita,
with half
a bottle
Vodka &
xperience…
Spoon,
Santa or
Shambhala!

#191

"Bottom line, by posting directly to Skeptic on his Blog then ignoring him, Chopra is demonstrating his skills as the ultimate troll.

(Wikipedia: An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.)

To be fair, it is his own discussion forum :)"

-Son_of_Skeptisch
************************************************

Deepak Chopra indeed admits that he is a troll:

"The invective rises higher and higher the more you prick the rigid mind-set that most skeptics cling to. As a small experiment I vary my posts..." Deepak Chopra, June 25, 2007

Post 206 and 207,
How can paranormal phenomena be 'attractive'? They are so varied that you cannot lump them together as unattractive or attractive. If you take the example of spoonbending, how does it become appealing to believe as opposed to not believing? What 'pretty story' or 'personal gratification' does it give? The question is simply whether it happens or does not happen.If one has not witnessed it the only rational response is to say that I haven't seen it personally so I reserve my judgement. To reject it out of hand is unscientific.

'Paranormal' phenomena are not attractive, pretty concepts. They are scary. They clash with our world view. That is why we reject them.

Whether Deepak Chopra accepts the title of a charlatan is neither here nor there. I simply mentioned that I don't. I don't think he agrees with his detractors. He only acknowledges the fact that there are people there who think so. Well, we don't need a proof for it on this blog do we?
As for healthy scepticism, it is useful only if healthy and positive. Most scepticism is for the sake of it without contributing anything positive. A healthy sceptic would say, I have reservations about this phenomenon based on current scientific knowledge but I am keeping an open mind. If I witness it I am willing to change my position.
I am inclined to put my money on DC and co because they are heretics of the scientific orthodoxy. Heretics do have a way of making breakthroughs when the orthodoxy languishes behind closed doors under its own weight.

"Any monsters under my bed tonight?"
"Nope." "No." "Uh-Uh."
"Well there better not be, I'd hate to have to torch one with my flamethrower!"
"You have a flamethrower?"
"They lie. I lie."

Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes

A lot of commotion stirred up around spoon bending due to our different angles of thought and experience around it. Some words/actions in response are weapons of destruction. Other words/actions are flags of peace. How powerful each person is. Is our blog experience a micro example of our macro war?

Each one of us is a "point" on the planet. What are we projecting into the atmosphere toward one another? Are we adding fire to the war zone? Are we adding peace? Imagine our communications as lines of force crisscrossing our Beloved Earth Mother. What does that look like, sound like, smell like, taste like, feel like?

The chakra range of energy/vibration is a good indicator of where the human species has been expressing. Due to the power of spirit/light/love we can shift those gears upward thus raising our vibratory tone and level of peace individually and collectively.

Can such healing work be done via a blog community? And if not this one...which one?

Trish ~~ Laughing Waters

And if not now, then when? :)

Skeptisch,
I feel I got all of my points across.
I don't see you as a rat.
I see you as a grandfather.
Well you know what they say...
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Or can you?
Todd

You see what you want to see. And you hear what you want to hear.

I saw that coming.
Not the allusion you are referring to antagonist.
Skeptisch is a man.
Todd

Dear Dhuwa, may I ask you, does your name mean something? In my language "duva" (I think it is read in a similar way) means "dove". It reminds me of peace.

One wonders whether the enemies of reason, the ones who tell us to have faith and not to be critical and skeptical, realise that the suicide bomber too lives in his own world of make believe. He too follows some pretending holy man who knows that there is life after death. He too is asked not to be skeptical and to have faith. But faith has to die before a better world can emerge.

If you want to give the real world a try, the world of science and reason, the world where Einstein’s God reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, please get a basic understanding of science. But please not Deepak’s kind!

And if you are convinced that Deepak and his quantum specialists must know what they are talking about, here a couple of quotes from a real quantum insider:

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”
Richard Feynman.

“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are (or how many books you wrote [not Feynman’s words]). If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong”
Richard Feynman.

What would be wrong with a world where honesty, reason and evidence are paramount?

Never said that.
Only used metaphor of rat in a beautiful garden.
Is that your purpose in life Dhuwa?
Creating conflict.
Todd

To posters like Aurora and Todd. You are a perfect example of brains, rewired by unreason.

This is the same discussion that I started reading here a little over a year ago.

Both sides passionate about what they feel will help us live in a better world. It is the same dicussion that has been going on for thousands of years.
This group sees logic and reason as the way for us to evolve and the other spirituality. Or substitute any two topics in place of science and religion.

And of course there are those floating around between the two.

This was a perfect thread to see this age old discussion play out.

Yo

"When we get tired of fighting we will stop fighting" Ruth

"Acceptance" Mieke

"I'm going to stop arguing" Bonnie

"bery deep doodooman" Diablo

Where are you Diablo?

peace comes from peace

derek

Skeptisch,
you may be right about me. My mind doesn't function according to my old way of reasoning anymore. It is another kind of reason that makes it all reasonable now :) Sorry... this might not sound too reasonable to you, but it does to me.

Derek,
I can be very passionate about some things, but I am not fighting :) Engaging in dialogue is not always the same thing as fighting. It depends on the inner attitude.

Dhuwa
This is just another example of the ongoing debates you just listed.
I realize that this one is about Deepak and spoon bending.

What really is at stake? Uri Gellar is still famous and about to do a TV show. Whether he is a fraud or not. His Johnny Carson experience didn't stop him or the debate it continues right here on this thread.

Aroura
I said discussion, the quote by Ruth was meant for ongoing fight that we all are apart of on some level.

derek

No disrespespect Aurora
I do need to be clearer with my intent.

derek

And you, dear Dhuwa NEED a back massage! no?

I'm psychic I know these things
hehehe!

Fascinating, Dhuva, thank you. So, if I understand you right, depending on how one stresses the first syllable, the meaning could change from "screen which blinds your vision" to Grace. I just love the way words play with us.

Derek, I must have misunderstood your post, I'm sorry. Thank you for pointing it out :)

Skeptisch,

Your stance is word for word in line with a particular kind of stock response by certain 'scientific' reviewers of new age books. The reviewer is often emotionally repelled by the subject matter to begin with. The review often fails to engage with the actual content of the book and reads as an unscientific diatribe, saying more about the reviewer than it does about the book.

Have you read any of Deepak's books... all the way through? Does it matter that he has influenced positively and enriched the lives of millions with his ideas, actions and teachings? Objectively speaking his world has very little in common with the ideas which run the mind of a suicide bomber.

* * *

.. but then again perhaps I am too harsh with you because I do detect across your various posts here the feel of love of truth and a certain poetic compassion for the world and its struggles. I like it that you mention your grandchildren.

Perhaps Skeptisch, you are subconsciously desiring to 'come out' here as a religious enlightened person ... and perhaps you might agree with Deepak that if you are engaged here in this forum in such detail, that it is an expression of you! You like being here with us and enjoy the attention. God forbid you could agree we are all soul mates ..

May we call you Mystisch from now ...?

See you in NY at the spoon bending :)

Oh Dhuwa! are you speaking for Deepak?, Didn't you just rag me out for doing that projecting thing with Ron? Hmmmmmm or are are you he? hmmmmmmm.

Well, well well what do we have here.

Yeah, yeah just ignore me that would the best!

hehehehe

Cheers!

Aurora, in #203 you write...

"I would definitely want to ask my own questions and find my own answers. If anything someone else finds inspires me, then I go ahead and do my own research."

I wish more people would genuinely adopt this practice.

I also wish understanding the truth was more inspiring to some.

And I also wish that when people did research, it was independent of the outcome they are hoping for.

In the case of spoon-bending, some of us have a strong need to disprove it, others have a strong need to prove it, and the rest of us are somewhere in between.

Ego, money, power, desires, hopes, dreams, the need to be right, are among the many factors which influence our response to any claim.

Even with a "boring" topic such as spoon-bending, there are those with a strong need for it to be true, others have an equally strong need for it to be false.

The more strongly an outcome impacts our belief system, the more we typically filter our observations and deductions.

The more impact being wrong has on you, the more “invested” you are in the outcome, and the bigger your denial of claims which shake your current beliefs.

A person’s spiritual beliefs are their ultimate "investment", and as such, it is next to impossible to change a heavily religious person’s view on something which has a negative impact on their belief system.

As a non-theist, you typically have a desire to help others from falling through religion’s one-way trap door. Often the convictions of a non-theists are as strong as the theists who wish to rescue non-believers from eternal damnation in their hell.

Kinda funny… both sides trying to rescue each other, with neither side wanting to be rescue.

In my view, this spoon bending debate represents this situation. I also think that the real enemy to both sides are those who take advantage of blind believers for their own benefit.

While the level of “evilness” varies, whether your sending testosterone-filled boys to blow themselves in crowds with a promise of 72 virgins on the other side, or telling a nation God speaks to you, or misleading your gullible followers with claims of spoon-bending and levitation, ultimately you doing the same thing… taking advantage of blind believers who put your word above facts, and who will believe anything you say because of your status in their belief system.

To some, Chopra is among these “charlatans”.

SoS,
(post # 238)
you have brought forth salient points

"The more strongly an outcome impacts our belief system, the more we typically filter our observations and deductions."

"this spoon bending debate represents this situation. I also think that the real enemy to both sides are those who take advantage of blind believers for their own benefit."

(ftr, I do not believe DC is a charlatan)

Hi Aurora,
I agree with you - discoveries that we make for ourselves are 'proof' enough! - but it is possible our experience will not stand up to another's litmus test (which is o.k. too imo).

As in the example of spoon bending, I have never seen this done without subtle use of the hands.

It seems to me, in the realm of science, its very important to have standards of accuracy and the ability to corroborate data - because human life and safety, our survival - depends on it
(i.e I am thankful to know how electricity works, and not to touch an open wire - someone before me figured it out, thank you Ben Franklin :)

When discoveries are made, it's a blessing to share the knowledge so all may benefit (in the area of technology, I am still enjoying the capacity of the internet to connect me to places I have only dreamed of!)

love,
~ Kate

Dhuwa
I personally don't think that money and economic success means anything but the ability to create wealth. It does not mean someone has the wisdom to answer the existential quandaries of man.
They be guessin' just like everyone else. Although when someone says they can answer these quandries, that's a red flag to me.

Whether Deepak bends a spoon or not, he is just a man, he holds no more answers than anyone else.

I know I'm not going to base my life on bent spoons, it would be cool to see. Then it would be next cool thing please. I am endlessly courious.

derek

I agree nice points Son_of_Skeptisch.

I think there's a little charlatan and a little saviour in all of us.

derek

Some of us are lucky and feel privileged to understand what science is teaching us. We feel skepticism and critical thinking should be part of everybody’s thought process. Curiosity and fairness provoked me to try and find out what all the new age craze was about.

“How to Know God” was an interesting read, but in “Peace is the Way” I could not get past Deepak ability to perform “RCB”. Books by Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett etc. always were part of my spiritually. I could never understand why anybody would accept some other person’s definition of truth, reason and evidence, unless it came through science and the scientific method.

How can we go wrong with a sincere discussion about reason?

“We will have won this war of ideas against religion when atheism is scarcely intelligible as a concept. We will simply find ourselves in a world in which people cease to praise one another for pretending to know things they do not know. This is certainly a future worth fighting for. It may be the only future compatible with our long-term survival as a species. But the only path between now and then, that I can see, is for us to be rigorously honest in the present. It seems to me that intellectual honesty is now, and will always be, deeper and more durable, and more easily spread, than “atheism.”
Sam Harris

Post 242
There is a lot of hot air here. 'People who buy anr read DC's books are all ignorant. DC is ignorant. He only puts an MD in front of his name to fool people.' Come on listen to yourself. How can anyone take you seriously? DC puts an MD in front of his name because he is one. And ALL scientists disagree with him? Come on , wake up. Have you even heard of The scientific Network? There are people in it who you quote. ie Richard Feynman and loads more who agree that science as yet does not understand everything and explore spirituality and its scientific basis. There are scientists in it from every field.(btw for every Richard Dawkins there is a Rupert Sheldrake). There are neureoscientists, biologists, physicists, doctors actively involved research into the unknown. Most importantly they have an open mind.
But I suppose even they are ignorant because they think differently from you. This is precisely my grouse against the so called rationalists. They are not rational at all. They are as blinded as religious zealots about 'their' precious science. As if it belongs to them. Science belongs to everyone. It is currently being held hostage by a coterie of fanatics in the name of rationalism and logic when they themselves don't seem to use them. Please don't talk for all the scientists. You don't represent them and for all your talk, you yourself may not be one.

To Janet(post 212, Keep chanting that mantra, don't cry) and Dhuwa,
If you feel the need to trawl through all my previous posts and find some quotes to use out of context you must have a lot of time on your hands. I feel flattered. Go and snoop all you want. I have nothing to hide.

Post 251
'I am sorry to disappointed you.'
Time is perhaps best spent on English skills than advanced google search engine.

Posts 247 and 250
I think you lot have sunk to an all time low. It is indicative of what sort of people you really are. Not worthy of intellectual dialogue. No further comments to make.
Bye.

Son of Skeptisch,

You say so many things I agree with in 238, especially your reasoning around belief systems, thank you! But I have a slightly different angle that I think shows in what way there is no real conflict here, please let me see if I can express it. This sentence you write might be a key:

"I also wish that when people did research, it was independent of the outcome they are hoping for."

It is amazing, Son of Skeptisch, but to me it is absolutely clear that any result is dependent on the intention behind it.
First, the subject of whatever research any of us decides to do springs from our whole inner world, our belief system, our experiences, our upbringing, our wishes, dreams, hopes, etc, etc, etc. It is simply so that our interest for any subject is awakened as a sum total of all of our past and as a next step in the direction of our evolution.

Second, and most important, the result we get to our experiments is also shaped by all of this amazing context that we are. But not only in the way you mention, as filtered observations, which is also very true and happening all the time. Our intentions change the results for real. And this is where science, I think, is lagging behind its own discoveries. I am no scientist, so those with a scientific inclination surely know much more than me, but I have heard of the puzzlement of scientists when the intention of the subject was able to produce more or less zeros on a computer screen.

What would be important to realize, and what would resolve all this apparent conflict so many see between any "it is possible" and "it isn't possible", would be the realization that the results of any experiment will be shaped by who is experimenting. Typically, scientists keep themselves out of the equation and look at the experiment as if it happened “out there”, they call it “objectivity”. But they don’t realize that they are in the experiment too, they couldn’t avoid it no matter how they tried, they themselves are one of the most important factors. The intention and background of the researcher is crucial in the result, and, again, I don't mean some skewing through interpretation, denial etc, I mean an actual effect of the doer on any manifested result.

You see, I understand that the scientific world is based on the very ground of what is called objectivity. The experiments which can be repeated in the same way with the same result are accepted as truth. And it all works fine as long as the background, the collective view and belief system of those who experiment is even and coherent. But in times of great discoveries, the large mass of “accepted” truth starts to be challenged by a minority which gets different results in their experiments. That is because these new experiments come from a different, more expanded background, covering an area still new. When the scientists established in the already known try to duplicate these experiments, there will be a period of time when they will find the new findings “untrue”, as they will of course not get the same results. There can be unnecessary fighting between who is right and who is wrong, when all that is happening is that a new truth is starting to be incorporated into the known.

I don’t mean that everything someone has ever happened to conclude must become true for all of us. But in my opinion, it is not necessary to fight about other people’s findings, because they might actually be true and real from the point where they are looking from. If it is a more expanded place, it will slowly spread, especially if our fear of the new allows it.

As for those who take advantage of blind believers... they have as much part in it as the blind believers themselves. Belief should be based on the facts that are true for oneself, with respect for others and with the understanding that truth is not something set in stone, but an immensity we are all exploring and growing into, step by step.

Dear Kate,

I agree with everything you say in 239. It is a blessing to witness your naturalness in accepting your own truth, at the same time leaving room for another's. Yes, we slowly build a ground of accepted truths, a collective story that we then call reality. That is fine :) It is our responsibility to make it a beautiful one.

What are people still discussing?

**************************************************

"Dear Skeptisch, please come to NY at your own
expense and I will make sure you can experience
spoon bending for yourself."

Let me assure Deepak, I will be in New York at his
convenience.

104. Posted by Skeptisch on October 4, 2007 12:41 PM

**************************************************

When is it convenient for Deepak Chopra to invite Skeptisch to NY?

That is the question!

When will Deepak respond?

That is the question!

I put my money on 'sometime next week', earlier than later.

Who is skeptisch?
And why is deepak chopra so keen on convincing him about spoon bending?
What is going on?
Am i missing something here?

“We call something supernatural or paranormal when we can't explain it.”

That’s why he probably also says:
--Faith will no longer be seen as an irrational departure from reason and science.
--Prayer will be seen as real and efficacious.
--Aspects of the paranormal and miraculous will be widely credited.
--Healing, both physical and psychological, will become commonplace.
--Communities of belief will arise.
--Manifestation of desires will be talked about as a real phenomenon.
--A wisdom tradition will grow to embrace the great spiritual teachings at the heart of organized religion."

Anyone who is capable of writing the above is not a realist or a scientist, but one who trends toward the delusional! I cannot see how a rational person would be intrigued by such patent rubbish!

To my chum Ron, a heartfelt, thank you.

Skeptisch,
You don't know me (at all). So how do you know my scientific reasoning has been rewired.
I don't think you are worth all of this attention. I'm sure you are eating it up.
I don't even think you are remotely in my league or Deepak's concerning scientific knowledge either. I very much doubt your formal education (in science) surpasses either of us.
I'm sure if you did witness some unexplainable phenomena in NY you would return to the blog and make up all sorts of subjective lies and interpretations to protect your skeptical reputation. Not only are you unreasonable you are a disgrace to true scientific inquiry.
Todd

Not only Level 7 Todd Troll's mind 'rewired by unreason', he is a disgrace to true Spirituality.

How would you know?
You aren't spiritual!
Todd

Re. #269

There is nothing substantial in Level7 Todd Troll's criticism of Skeptisch, apart from name calling and throwing insults., and making staw man assessments of the views of Skeptics at large.

He claims to have scientific knowledge, psychic powers and spiritual insights. But his comments doesn't reflect the same. He is a hypocrite and a blowhard.

It is best to ignore the troll.

Post 257,
Sorry, just could not resist this.
I am not worried about your bite Dhuwa because your bark is so loud.
Really got to go now. Byee.

Lou Rizzo,
Give me a break! You use the same terminology as some others here. In fact, (you are the others)!
With a different type keyed name.
Todd

Words, dripping from your fingertips
are but a

joker on jack
push on a shove
match on a fire
cold on ice

A deadman's touch
doesn't mean much.

A whisper on a scream
doesn't change a thing.

Wonderful thoughts expressed by two of the greatest intellectual minds of today.

“Thank goodness” is a perfect fit for a Thanksgiving Day.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,1716,In-honour-of-Dan-Dennett,Richard-Dawkins

As a newcomer to this site, I am still learning about who is who. I would like to thank Level(-)7 for his/her post #269.

His/her assumption that Skeptisch has an interest in attention (as L7 sure seems to), and his/her "knowing" that Skeptisch would lie about any spoon-bending he witnessed in NY, shows very clearly how his/her brain is wired.

Someone who is so sure that another person would lie must be very familiar with the practice themselves.

Also, his statement that "I don't even think you are remotely in my league or Deepak's concerning scientific knowledge" is very insightful (as to how he thinks).

Or perhaps he is the ultimate troll.

In any case, in the theme of the title of this thread, this is my last (and first) message to Level7...

How about trying to act the part of your login ID?

Do not feed the troll 7!

Indeed, Sachin.
Nice to see you back!

Well said, SoS.

My last message to the shithead, too.

A partial list of my posts:

http://tinyurl.com/2x2fc2

In typical narcissistic fashion, he brags, “I very much doubt your formal education (in science) surpasses either of us.” First of all, it is rare for a truly educated personal to sell his education as a qualifier to make his points; action usually speaks louder than words.

This crass individual would be well-advised to first learn how to act like an educated person by engaging in healthy, informed dialogue rather than continually spewing ad hominems, slander and inflammatory venom to diminish his opponent!

Intentblog is blessed with Windbag the Wrestler Todd. Or is it Windbag the scientist, spiritualist, philosopher and psychic?

You want to see the caricature of that individual?

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/blowhard.jpg

"In Windbag the Sailor Ben Cutlet is a sea captain who entrances his bar room audience with tales of his days at sea, even though in reality his maritime experience extends only to navigating a coal barge."

Zen Garden

A monk had worked for days creating a Zen Garden.
Finally, satisfied with his work, he sat down to
contemplate his masterpiece. Soon afterward, a cat
walked onto the gravel and defecated. As cats are
bound to do, he kicked gravel around to bury the
scat and so ruined the monk's delicate design.

The monk, congratulating himself on his lack of
annoyance, got to his feet, and grabbing his rake was about to fix the damage, when the master yelled from a window, " Sit down, curd brain, It's not the garden, but your mind, which can't accommodate shit."

----- Anonymous

This is some march, folks. In October, no less.

It looks to me to be a protest.

The Pros(Protestants) are testing the waters for intelligent life.

The intelligence, if here, was an accident of Nature.

OMG!!! I think I'm cured!

Correction: Line 2, post 285 should read "person", not personal!

Our own medicine is the hardest to swallow!

Unless your a parrot...

Correction: Line 2, post 290 should read "you're", not your!

People just need some reality on a subject in order for them to understand spirituality and spiritual abilities. Here is a video from "Primetime", the ABC news show, which shows scientific proof of Reincarnation. I think this should win an award for how brilliantly it was done. It leaves no doubt to any real skeptic and gives reality to those already in the know.

Please pass this on to as many as you can because I believe this is the kind of proof that will help people understand themselves, their future and the consequences of ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA

ok i haven't been really following this discussion on spoon bending (will read up the archives later)...
but OMG i would love to see something like that!!!!!Can I see this when I am in NY next? pls pls pls!!! I do believe its possible, I know people around me who've experienced things like these.. but I've had only subtle experiences myself :(

waylay, you forgot the rats!!

Those rats in the garden must be his thoughts running unwired.

That completes the picture of the 'defecating cat in the Zen garden' who is now plotting, from outside the fence.

Wow... 300 posts in less than a week. Is this a new Intentblog record?

If my opinions are so irrelevant to this vast collection of unreasonable skeptics and hypocrits then why is it that so many of you continue to attack (with incredible repetition).
Even the attacks lack substantial intelligence for they are all insubstantial character assaults.
Not one of you (and there are many) has proved or given a valid criticism of any kind.
The attacks almost sound as if children are issuing them.
If any of you are true proponents of science then lets see some factual information in support of your views.
Todd

What is Deepak Chopra afraid of? It's been six days now since he made the offer.

Skep has held up his end of the the deal! Where is Chopra? Sir, if you do not respond by tomorrow, I doubt whether you ever will.

And what's the reason for making it, if you didn't mean it? Perhaps you are busy and haven't had time to respond?

You often claim that you read the comments and learn from them as they evolve. So, what have you learned from this thread thus far, assuming that you have read it?

Perhaps spoon-bending by the mind, as many of us suspect, is a hoax, after all!

Perhaps Deepak (by reading these comments) realizes these aren't valid skeptics but unreasonable individuals with their only intention being personal attacks and criticism for kicks.
Todd

Can science prove that someone is a Rat, Cat, Monk and Troll at the same time?

What a joke!

..serves nothing more than entertainment value.

Ignore the troll!

Now this joker comes and tells me that there is a dragon in his garage. Should I take him seriously?
science didn't disprove it(meaning didn't prove that dragons don't exist in his garage), therefore
this joker wins the argument in his deluded butt, where from his brain is out, flushed.

To: InnocentVictim and Friend_of_Skeptisch

Did you even watch the piece from "Primetime"? You obviously have not otherwise you'd realize that there is absolutely no other sane explanation for the abundance of memories of a 2 year old pouring out about the life and death of a WWII pilot.

There is more than the material in this universe. Your brain is not the end-all-be-all of existence. Emotions, thought, experience and memories are more than just chemical reactions in your brain. You really need to open your eyes to more than just the material.

If you doubt the claims of this video and will only accept information from an "authority", then go to the following website below. The University of Virginia has done more than 2,500 case studies of children who recall past lives. As far as your question about why this isn't front page news, your guess is as good as mine. I'm assuming this information would turn the "scientific" world on it's head after years of denial of anything even remotely spiritual in nature. "Scientists" would lose a tremendous amount of credibility wouldn't they and credility is their life-blood.

Please look at the video first before you respond back, and check out the couple sites where university studies have been on-going which prove that life does continue after body-death.

Always keep in mind that we live in a world full of misinformation that comes from many "authoritative" circles so it's your responsibility to look for yourself you decide for yourself what is true or not. Never let others think for you no matter how "authoritative" they may seem.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies

veritas.arizona.edu/

Sandy,
That was a truly brilliant response!
Packed with scientific knowledge and reason!
Todd

Hello Everyone

I just couldn't resist, but when you read a line like this...What is Deepak Chopra afraid of? it is hard to just let it go...you gotta love this guy...he and his posse never give up...SO DEEPAK WHAT GIVES? HUH?...they sing a ling ling, over and over..

hahaha

If I were Deepak I would have hightailed it out of Dodge seven days ago for some fresh air, open sky, a nice cool breeze because it looks like the air has been downright stale here at IB since the posse has taken over...tied themselves to this "last message to skeptish" blog like a fly to you know what!!

boy oh boy....Deepak must be shakin in his red shoes....

holy maloney....hahahah, ruth

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello Deepak!

Skeptisch had accepted your suggestion:

Let me assure Deepak, I will be in New York at his convenience.

104. Posted by Skeptisch

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Lady, the man is right; the intellect is one of the first things to go; and, for a few, senility usually sets in right after!

All you ever do, like a troll, is searching to find something to snipe or gripe at! One would be hard-pressed to find anything original, substantive, creative or intellectually stimulating from you in this forum. Your comments are predictably negative, ill-gotten and strange!

Sadly, it does appear that there is much intellect left, if there was any there in the first place, and perhaps it’s time for you to seriously consider retiring at a senior citizen residence if you are not already there!

Wow... 300 posts in less than a week. Is this a new Intentblog record?

300. Posted by Son_of_Skeptisch
---------------------------------

Nope.

Maybe a new record for Deepak's(or any contributor's) Thread.

Open Thread 33, July 11, 2006

www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/07/open_thread_33.html

Crossed 300 in about 2 days.
Crossed 1000, in 7 days.

*

Open Thread 80, July 20, 2007

Crossed 300 in 5 days too.

www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/06/open_thread_80.html

*

Then there is Weekly Intent Navin Bajaj

Which crossed 450. But, 300 in about 6 days.
(Believe it overtook Sharukh Khan Post)

www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/06/weekly_intent_n.html

Wow... 300 posts in less than a week. Is this a new Intentblog record?

300. Posted by Son_of_Skeptisch
---------------------------------

Nope.

Maybe a new record for Deepak's(or any contributor's) Thread.

Open Thread 33, July 11, 2006

www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/07/open_thread_33.html

Crossed 300 in about 2 days.
Crossed 1000, in 7 days.

*

Open Thread 80, July 20, 2007

Crossed 300 in 5 days too.

www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/06/open_thread_80.html

*

Then there is Weekly Intent Navin Bajaj

Which crossed 450. But, 300 in about 6 days.
(Believe it overtook Sharukh Khan Post)

www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/06/weekly_intent_n.html

Ruth, I like your posts for your trademark humor. Your insults are always fun to read(perhaps not to the intended receiver though!).

Ignore the reactions. Keep writing!

What a thread!!

In a way I find it quite shocking that Deepak Chopra has lost his patience with Skeptisch and has given him so much importance with this post. I really do not understand why Deepak wants to prove anything to Skeptisch – no-one even knows who Skeptisch is and what his credentials are.

All we know (or at least all I’ve learned about him so far) is that he has only read two books by Deepak Chopra (“How to Know God” and “Peace is the Way”) and concluded that Deepak Chopra is a “pretender”!

He lives in Canada and he seems to be retired. It seems to me he’s made it his mission in life to relentlessly try to undermine Deepak and other people on this blog. He seems to be very organised and has kept records of all the things that Deepak has said that he and other people have said here on this blog that he disagrees with and he keeps on questioning these things endlessly. Anything that does not conform to his worldview is simply, unreasonable.

My guess is that Deepak Chopra has realised that he’s made a mistake, nothing will ever convince Skeptisch. So he would be wasting his time with him, and he really has no obligations to actually try to convince Skeptisch of anything. Skeptisch will always remain a Skeptic no matter what happens - it’s such an important part of his identity that he’s even made it his alias.

And now we even have “the son of Skeptisch” and the “friend of Skeptisch” posting here – when are the brothers, sisters, uncles etc of Skeptisch going to get involved? :)

To InnocentVictim:

I'm not quite sure how you surmised that this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA , has been debunked?

Unfortunately this seems typical of close-minded skeptics. I was the same way for years so I understand where you are coming from because there is a ton of false information out there and you don't want to be duped so you rely on "authorities" or go with the majority for your opinions.

I have some loving friends who are Christian who cannot get themselves to look at this data also. They would rather scoff at it as do most close-minded skeptics. But by scoffing at and dismissing the data without first really looking at it, you then put yourself in the same boat as those you label as ignorant.

One of the toughest things to do in life is to admit your wrong, but it is the sanest thing to do if you are.

A true skeptic, which I am, has a responsibility to look at data before dismissing it or accepting it as fact. I don't really care what was discussed in previous discussions but only care about this present one.

So, since you haven't looked at the video, I will ask you this simple question which the video answers clearly...
How do children, who are barely able to speak and have very limited life experiences able to recall names, places, dates, language etc.. that they've never been exposed to in any way, shape or form?

The only sane explanation is that we are spritual beings who have lived before.

I urge you to just watch the video with an open mind. That's all I ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA

Dhuwa tells me I should try to find out more about Skeptisch. But actually, I'd like to find out more about all the skeptics that come here.

What I’m most curious to know is: what motivates you to come here and spend so much time here?

I may not agree with everything that Deepak writes about but I find a lot of what he writes interesting and stimulating. I like to get a different viewpoints on things and I think that life would be very boring if thought-provoking people like Deepak didn’t exist. So by coming here I’m often gaining something.

What are you skeptics gaining? It seems to me you disagree with everything Deepak Chopra is saying so you can’t be gaining anything constructive that adds something beneficial to your lives…

Some skeptics seem to come here because they believe that Deepak is a “fraud” because they cannot accept the scientific evidence that Deepak Chopra uses sometimes. But even if you disagree with the evidence, where’s the harm in Deepak Chopra’s underlying message? His books encourage people to heal themselves and many of his writings are actually very philosophical and are clearly helpful even if you disagree with the scientific evidence he uses.

You’re not going to make the world a better place by trying to undermine Deepak Chopra – he works very hard at promoting peace and good spiritual values.

If you want to make the world a better place you’d be better off spending your time working for a charity. It seems to me you’re not gaining anything personally by coming here and you’re not helping anyone else for that matter so you’re completely wasting your time. And you’re wasting my time as well! I have to scroll down the threads almost endlessly before I find someone that’s written a constructive and interesting contribution! :)

Take care

Poop-squat has finally replaced Diddley-squat. Oh, my!

Last message to No-joke,

..!..

->

Dear Friend_of_Skeptisch,

Thanks for pointing that out, I did not have time to proof-read. The comments were typed in less than a minute as I had to leave the office for a meeting.

It should have read: "It does not..." I think you must have figured that out!

Cheers, mate!

Truth Warrior:
"How do children, who are barely able to speak and have very limited life experiences able to recall names, places, dates, language etc.. that they've never been exposed to in any way, shape or form?"

False memories can be planted by the parents without their(parents) own knowing, or knowingly(happens in India. Recent media exposures of this fraud are just some examples).

"The only sane explanation is that we are spiritual beings who have lived before. "

That just shows your bias to 'believe' without looking for other explanations of possible fraud, or 'false memories' which are more common than we realize. And mind you most of the cases of reincarnation are from India, where there is a beleif in reincarnation in their culture.

Recently there were a few cases of reincarnation cases debunked, due to increased media awareness in superstitious India, and no longer we see reincarnation claims as they used to be in the past when Ian Stevenson of Virgina Univ. set out to study some decades ago. It is generally the case of a baby from a poor family claiming to be a rich person in past life. The motivation being a better life for the child.

About the handful of strong cases being identified by Ian Stevenson, one should realize that Stevenson believed in reincarnation before he set out to find evdience. The expecancy effect of Stevenson flowed into flawed scientific metodolgy and none of his claims are considered as valid by mainstraem science. Therefore his reincarnation studies and his claims are pseudoscience.

Read Scientific Journals for scientific proofs. Not Primetime ABC Videos. Read Skeptical Magazine, SEED Magazine you will find explanations for all your questions, and laternate explanations which are natural, sane and believable. Now don't give that crap about I was once a Skeptic. It doesn't matter if you were a skeptic or not. You seem to be on a conversion agenda here. Go convince your Christian friends. Those of us who are skeptical about reincarnation claims(not out of ignorance but from carefully weighing all evidnece) are not convinced by the studies in the video. TThose of us who are believers believe it not out of pseudo scientific proof but out of faith and evolution of soul of the New Age. There fore you have nothing to convince anyone here. Go find some other forum or stop spamming this thread. Go search the archives. We(Intentblog members) are aware of your information about reincarnation evdience. You have already posted your link once, don't post it again and again just to make your point like a Christian missionary hell bent to spread the word of Christ to the on-believer.

Lars,
Great post. There is really no need to convince people of anything especially those that are so set in their views.
Truth Warrior,
Thanks for drawing my attention to this video.

Truth Warrior - a Request.

Please post the link to the ABC video in the Open Thread, where many more(who are ignorant of these claims) can appreciate the information. Don't spam messages in Deepak's threads on Genes and others.

If you are very passionate about this(as it seems) and cannot contain the exhilaration upon finding convincing proof having watched the video, write an essay and small article introducing the video, and send it to Intentblog , they will feature it in Weekly Intent Post:

"WEEKLY INTENT: Every Sunday, IntentBlog features a post by one of our commenters. If you are interested in blogging, please email us at intentblog (at) gmail.com."

Thanks.

MM,

I apologize, but I must have missed the legal disclaimer which states that all statements and links must be approved by "MM" before being posted on Intent Blog.

I truly do apologize and it won't happen again.

hello all,

you will have to forgive me, you see I grew up with lots of siblings- extended family and there was lots of sparring going on, and, well, Ron, it is just that you are such easy pickins. You come off as a know-it-all(not unlike myself) tough guy intellectual with the big vocab and yet it takes so little to bring up the toxic retorts when someone lets you have it...gee I feel downright cruel when I do it because you are so easy and I know it..but really you should thank me because people pay big therapy bills to uncover their own toxic stuff lying just under the surface and it seems I can get to yours.....without so much as a hiccup.....really, I should be a-shamed of meself...bad, bad, granny that I am pickin on someone so much younger but certainly not wiser than...me.

so Cheers mate! I am gonna try to not be so hard on ya'll...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA

Oops! There I go again.

Folks, I thought I'd share the following note I just sent to the Larry King Live show...

"To the Producers of Larry King Live,

Deepak Chopra, a past guest on the Larry King Live show, has offered to organize a spoon-bending demonstration for "Skeptisch", a poster at www.intentblog.com (a website operated by Deepak's family).

Details can be found under Deepak's posting on this website entitled "My last message to Skeptisch".

The link is...

http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/10/my_last_message.html

A proposal has been put forth to do this demonstration on the Larry King Live show.

The debate in the website forum between the "skeptics" and Deepak's followers has created a significant amount of interest by followers of both sides, which I'm sure it would also do as a segment on the Larry King Live show.

Due to his past appearances on Larry King Live, I'm sure you already have access to Deepak's handlers.

If you are interested, I can provide you with contact information for "Skeptisch" for the other side's perspective.

Thank you in advance for your consideration and I would appreciate a short reply indicating if this is inside/outside of your programming interests."

I would encourage skeptics, Deepak followers and anyone else who wants to see spoon bending by Chopra or a Chopra-certified "bender" to send a similar note to the Larry King Live show.

I just called Larry King and he wants all the "Skeptic" crowd to meet him at the corner of Hollywood and Vine Friday at 5am SHARP(he is a busy man..he interviews Brittany Spears at 7am)...so be on time for spoon bending 101...remember..to bring your spoons...there are no freebies folks....no spoonie no bendie....kapeech.........

set you alarms....and be on time....

Re: 337... Thant's pretty funny :-)

This is like the shoot out at the OK Corral.
They meet at high noon, spoons in hand, or on the table, and Larry King on the sidelines with a microphone.
The tension is high, lives are at stake............

Yo, you guys are too much fun.
Does anyone really think that Deepak bending or not bending a spoon will change anything? Maybe for a few people but after the dust has settled the debate will go on until we get tired of debating. Each side has a noble goal which seems to be to enlighten and educate the world to rid the it of ignorance and suffering.

The debate only feeds the suffering.

derek

This is like the shoot out at the OK Corral.
They meet at high noon, spoons in hand, or on the table, and Larry King on the sidelines with a microphone.
The tension is high, lives are at stake............

Yo, you guys are too much fun.
Does anyone really think that Deepak bending or not bending a spoon will change anything? Maybe for a few people but after the dust has settled the debate will go on until we get tired of debating. Each side has a noble goal which seems to be to enlighten and educate the world to rid the it of ignorance and suffering.

The debate only feeds the suffering.

derek

If this BS continues I will have to find somewhere else to blog! cause this is boring! spoon bending bla bla

YOUR JUST MESSING WITH EVERYONE CAUSE YOU BORED!

What happened to all the great poetry? Hmmmm? tell me

I would like to say that the old troll has lost her marbles, but that would not be entirely accurate. After all, it would be difficult to lose what you never had in the first place.

Now she realizes that she is a comic, perhaps too little too late?

Happily, her role here is to provide thought-provoking, stimulating and insightful subject matters for discussion. See post post 142, for example.

We shall forever be indebted to her for her outstanding, imaginative and invaluable contribution to the site.

Good night, all!

RE: #340... There seams to something for every taste right here at intent blog. Perhaps "Insect Cyborgs to Fly Reconnaissance Missions" by DK would be less boring for you?

Oops, that should have been "RE: #340... There seems to be something for every taste right here at intent blog. Perhaps "Insect Cyborgs to Fly Reconnaissance Missions" by DK would be less boring for you?"

Fun for everyone... just found this spoon fight video on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0hTzLk5LIc

Enjoy everyone. Good night.

Dhuwa,

In your last post you wrote “Lars has a very high stamina in keeping an argument going” and for this reason you don’t want to “waste your energy engaging her” (btw, I am male!).

I find it interesting that you don’t want to engage in a debate with me, because you’re the one who actually started to engage with me by asking a lot of questions about my first post (#319).

Did I ask you questions (in post #321) that you don’t want to answer? My main questions, which were addressed to you and all the other skeptics here, were: what motivates you to come here and what are you gaining from this? I hope that by answering these questions for yourself you will realize that you are completely wasting your time here.

I haven’t spent much time at Intentblog lately, but I have in the past and I can honestly say that I’ve enjoyed reading many of Deepak’s posts and that it’s been a rewarding experience. But I really can’t understand what motivates you and other skeptics that don’t believe in the vast majority of what Deepak Chopra writes, to spend your time here. I’m really curious about this and it’s a shame that it seems you don’t want to be open about your motives.

If your intention is to educate people - wouldn’t you be better off spending your time on religious fundamentalist websites that preach hate? All of Deepak’s fans that come here seem to me to be kind and loving people – they don’t need your “help”.

I perfectly understand your arguments about your need for robust scientific proof, but I (and I think many of Deepak’s fans think the same) don’t need to have scientific proof for everything. There are many things that a lot of people have experienced and that science hasn’t managed to explain satisfyingly yet but could be real phenomena.

And most importantly, if someone believes that the mind could help someone bend a spoon, it’s a pretty harmless belief so I don’t understand what all this fuss is about.

Take care

lol Lars.. ur post 319 is so true!

perhaps these skeptischous people are just trying to get attention.

Dhuwa,

This is getting silly. I'm sorry, maybe I used the wrong word in my last post - you haven’t actually asked me a lot of question but you gave me a lot of suggestions.

Please re-read your post #321 and you’ll see that you had a lot to say about my post #319 and you addressed suggestions directly to me – so please don’t tell me you didn’t start engaging with me.

The strange thing is that just after my first reply to you, you decided that you couldn’t engage with me any further when we had actually just started. I didn’t think that the two questions I asked would be so difficult to answer.

But if you don’t want to answer my questions because they make you uncomfortable - fine. The mystery as to why you and other skeptics are here will just have to remain incomprehensible.

Hello everyone,

noticed this..."I would like to say that the old troll"

the author of this exquisite line is one class act...the old troll....he calls me...gee, I wonder what he would say if I were standing in front of him....face to face....and from what I have read he is even a parent I wonder if he would call me that in front of his children?

So, when one responds this way to another's comments do you think it is because they are pushed to the edge and they have no choice but to defend themselves any way they can. Really, I can see defending onself, it is just the way in which we do it that I ponder...hmmmmmm..interesting personality make-ups here at IB....

the old troll is signing out this morining...have a great day everyone, ruth

Friend of Skeptisch,

The mystery isn’t solved. You don’t have to be stupid to have a different perspective on life! You cannot claim that science can explain everything yet about the universe, there are constantly new discoveries to be made. You should thank Deepak Chopra for having the courage to speak about things that he’s experienced and that he believes in. We need people that have the courage to challenge the status quo in order to evolve.

Deepak could have decided to stay in his comfort zone as a conventional doctor and not bother to speak out about experiences that he and millions of people have had. He’s helped to encourage more debates, and hopefully more scientific research will be made into these areas.

If Deepak’s fans are as hopelessly stupid as you seem to think, it must be pretty pointless for you to come here and preach about the virtues of science and to try to “educate” us with your perspective on life. Isn’t it plain stupid and contradictory to waste your time like that? If you’ve got a little bit of intelligence you must, in reality, actually believe that Deepak and his fans are pretty reasonable people otherwise you wouldn’t even spend a minute of your time here.

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

A classic CureZone troll is trying to make us believe that he is a genuine skeptic with no hidden agenda. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.
While sometimes, he may sound like a stupid, uninformed, ignorant poster, do not be deceived! Most trolls are highly intelligent people trying to hide behind a mask of stupidity and/or ignorance! They usually have an agenda. Very few trolls come to CureZone out of pure skepticism.

A CureZone Troll is generally a person who is extremely skeptical of the main forum subject.
He is generally interested to make other forum members look stupid. A troll will sometimes use insults to provoke other people to insult him. Then, he will complain to moderators of being insulted and will request that his opponents get banned from further discussion.

Actually, this description is a perfect example of what has been happening on this particular post of Deepak's by Skeptisch and his supporters in their unrelenting
challenge to Deepak almost everytime he posts something on this site...

More words? dripping,
from fingertips

like tears on a river,
at first, skimming the surface,
turn and

succumb to black.

Skeptisch... about ur post #364...

"Why are Deepak’s followers not bothered by stuff like this:
“We call something supernatural or paranormal when we can't explain it.”

Evolution is a well-established fact, but to some it must have a supernatural component. Why, because we can’t explain all of it yet?
"

ur just picking on words here. Im sure it was meant in a very generic way.. usually things that are called paranormal are bcoz they're inexplainable... isn't that true ? isn't taht what usually cultures and peoples have been doing? I don't think it means everything out there that's inexplainable is always considered paranormal. The implication is single sided, I wouldn't assume the reverse to be true..

"Science is being converged into religion here"
-Friend_of_Skeptisch

okkaayy.. u clearly didn't get it!

Deepak Choptra:

"Let's not waste any more time on spoon bending. For millions of people it’s now a trivial example of mind and matter as inseparably one."

On the heels of this discussion, one party is acting like "God". You hear about him, but he is invisible; the other is personable and responsive.

The verdict is in, the latter is not a charlatan, but a realist!

For the former, the jury is in recess.

I think there are very few -- if any (!!) -- "devotees" here.

There are people who:

-- believe in free speech
-- have open minds
-- have a sense of humor (smaller number of people)
-- take themselves too seriously (even smaller number of people)

There is no need for a life-saving mission, because no one's life is in danger according to what they read here.

How can you judge if people are "deluded" or not? How is it that it's OK to imply that readers here are stupid or under-educated?

Deepak comes here as he pleases...
...because...
...he pays the bills here!!!

You are in his house, he is not in yours. Your behavior as a guest sucks, frankly. Your presumptions that people are stupid or ignorant and need "saving" are insulting to readers here.

You should check yourself. It's a week after this thread started and you still haven't understood these points. Have some tea, take a walk, meditate, and take it easy thereafter.

love, Heath

To all those people hellbent on acting as keepers of science and trying to educate 'uneducated, deluded, demented, irrational people'

Your approach is all wrong. Firstly, if you want to educate someone it is best not to insult them otherwise they tend not to listen to you or respect you. (Those people who have children or are teachers should know this already)

Secondly you need to know your subject matter well ie. in this case- science, religion and philosophy. You need to be well read in all these areas and be well rounded and balanced individuals. (All teachers need to have good training you know)

Thirdly you need to realise when you are not winning and have the grace to quit. No one likes to listen to people who go on and on saying the same things over and over. Ask any student.
If you are getting so frustrated with 'guru's devotees' you know what to do, don't you?
You cannot convert people against their wishes without using violence.

Lastly, enough about Dawkins already. I have had upto here with some of these 'mainstream' scientists; the kind that are the last word on everything and even wage an evangelistic war on faith and theism in general. What hubris! I don't want to know what Dawkins thinks about Sheldrake thank you very much because I don't think much of his opinion. Between mainstream and unconventional, I know which type of scientist I prefer.

#374 "Your presumptions that people are stupid or ignorant and need "saving" are insulting to readers here."

Yes, Heath, note how scientific some are about how they evaluate human relationship and character. Objectivity gets bent like a spoon. So, for all this brouhaha, perhaps it's just another game of tennis or even 'pass the parcel.' I wonder what's in it. It must be a very hot potato! In my humble opinion, of course!!!
Now, let me see, what's this parcel I seem to be left with?

Love,
Ed.

Who is hgquinn? Who is neetu?

Who who?

Who is Edmund? Who is Diablo, who is Tammy?

They can't possibly one. No?

By the way, instead of "guru's devotees" I see more evidence of 'skeptisch's devotees' here. Just an observation. (Wonder what colour shoes he wears?)

#377
Oh poor dear insider! What a state you have got yourself into. Relax. I am one person and one person only. No other identities, no disguises no foolish pseudonyms. Just Neetu. Female, in case you are wondering. You see, that is why you shouldn't indulge in assuming multiple identities. You start suspecting that everyone else is doing the same as you. I have no need of these kind of tactics. I don't even visit this blog very much normally. But these last few days the kind of things that have been said on this forum have compelled me to contribute more than usual. I hope that this satisfies your curiosity.

#380
Bravo skeptisch's devotee. Keep up your good work. Keep telling off everybody who (you think) misrepresents science. With your charming ways and lovely manners you are sure to succeed in your endeavour.

Insider, not everyone is an alias, like you, You can easily find out who I am from my typekey profile. I challenge you to tell me who you are -- whether privately (you can contact me via info on my typekey) or publicly.

Your question is a false accusation, a classic troll technique meant to undermine the credibility of regular-people voices, as well as turn attention away from aliased people acting as trolls. It's bullying, too -- subtle, but bullying nonetheless.

Neetu has made a very good point about your assuming multiple identities, and its leading you to project that others are doing the same. But it's my opinion that you know what's what and who's who, and you're trying to perform an act of misdirection with that accusation.

Given Neetu's and Edmund's quick pick-up of the basic point that FoS and others are insulting readers here, and then your attempt to scramble the picture, I think I must have hit upon a good point.

Oye, Ed, xx!

Skep, neetu asked what color your shoes are. Care to share? When you write to Aurora, you say "...we...". Why not say it straight? Is the noise from the aliased trolls who pretend to be your friends going to your head?

FoS, he has opened his house to the public -- that means it is his house, and he has invited you in. Do you know what it means to be a guest? Or are you a thief of some kind, masquerading as a guest?

FoS, let me stop you short with this: Please find all instances of praising the guru, as you term it, in this thread. List and enumerate those instances. Then do the same for those of your ilk. See what you find.

Hello, dhuwa

You are trying to get the thread back on the track you want it on, hai na. But the thread won't go there, except for the noise you and your cronies (!) are making. Your disclaimer is patently insincere. It's obvious to everyone, and usually I'd keep my peace about it, but once in a while it's good to vent. esp. when this noise has been cluttering IB for a week, suffocating most good discussion. If anyone is a charlatan here, I'm addressing him now.

love, Heath

The talk centers around the hoax of spoon-bending. But what about a fork, can it also be bent by the mind?

The talk centers around the noise created by aliased troll bullies, "Ron".

Wow, 390 responses from everybody but Deepak.

Maybe we can look forward to:

My last message to Skeptisch Part 2,3,4,5,and 6

By far from recent memory the most popular Deepak post.

I do smell sequel,

Steve

Chances are pretty good that Chopra will not follow through, and will not provide Skeptisch with a spoon-bending demonstration.

So to move this discussion forward, let’s pretend (pretending seems to be a skill which is in abundance here) that Chopra did go on Larry King Live, and did the following demonstration...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZGq3VYMVkQ

(At 2:45 in this clip, James Randi does a spoon bending demonstration.)

After witnessing the demonstration, observers will respond in one of three ways...

1. Non-delusional people will attribute the results to Randi’s conjuring skills (as he himself does)

2. Blind believers in Randi the guru, will attribute the results to his paranormal powers. Nothing anyone says or does will matter. They simply put the need to believe above all else.

3. Fellow charlatans will also claim it was the results of Randi’s paranormal powers, which they will claim they also possess. They know they are lying, but have no issue with this as they enjoy participating in the abuse of the gullible blind believers.

So in closing, here is my crude attempt at a metaphor-filled comment to the blind believers and the charlatans...

To the blind believers... if it looks, feels and smells like $h!t, please don’t be offended when I tell you it is $h!t. If you don’t agree, feel free, dig in and eat it up. But please don’t be surprised when I tell my friends to pass on the chocolate cake coming out of your kitchen.

To the charlatans... you are the real villains here. How do you look in the mirror in the morning knowing you participate in the abuse of gullible blind believers for your own personal benefits (e.g. attention, $, power, etc.). Not much I can do if someone blindly believes in you, but realize that when you try to sneak your $h!t onto the science buffet, there will an outcry.

Have a nice day.

And now for a demonstation of my poetry skills...

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Based on the Evidence
Spoon Bending is Pooh

That's funny! more please, I love your poetry son of a bladbla! nice...

Friend of a bladabla, Save it! will ya, your BITCHING is BORING! think Ill take a walk now because of your nastiness, the only shit around here is the SHIT you insist on writing, surely you MUST have something more pleasant to say? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? Why don't you think about and get back to me...

ITS EASY TO VENT YOUR ANGER, TRY A NEW ANGLE, WILL YA.

Love to you anyway
t

In the words of Rodney King... "Why can't we all just get along?"

For the answer, check out an article with the same title at...

http://www.mediate.com/articles/noll9.cfm

Spoiler: The article claims "it's based, in part, on our brains."

ATTENTION INTENTBLOG PARTICIPANTS
This thread has reached it's maximum capacity of 400 postings (of $h!t). Please disperse in an orderly manner. Thank you for your participation and cooperation. That will be all.

Oops, missed by 1.

Skeptisch,

You’re making false accusations. In your post #364, you seem to imply that Deepak does not believe in evolution. That’s completely untrue.

There are grey areas in the theory of evolution and you could interpret things in different ways. Deepak doesn’t agree with all of Richard Dawkins’ interpretations. It’s sad that won’t accept that Richard Dawkins doesn’t have a monopoly on truth and that his interpretations may not always be the only plausible ones.

Skeptisch,

What really amazes me about Richard Dawkins (and some of his followers like you) is that he seems to think he knows it all and that only his interpretations are truly rational – and we can discard the rest. I think that history has showed us repeatedly that paradigms can be shattered and that avant-garde theories can sometimes turn out to be true. So displaying a little more humility would be truly wise and intelligent.

I wasn’t surprised to see that Dawkins’ latest tv-series (“The Enemies of Reason”) was quite biased. It seems that you were proud of how Dawkins came across since you posted the link to one of the episodes of this series on intent not so long ago. For those who haven’t watched it: Dawkins attacks alternative medicine in this documentary and there’s a very short (very edited?) interview with Deepak Chopra on it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047

Apparently, in Dawkins’ previous tv-series where he attacked religious fundamentalists, he was extremely angry (which is understandable) but some people thought that he didn’t come across as a very stable man, mentally speaking. So in this latest series, he tried to restrain himself to the maximum and tried to come across as a charming person (which I have to say is a good strategy because it does help people to be more receptive to him and his message). It seems that you, Skeptisch, are employing a similar strategy, and I think it is smart of you - you don’t always come across as a nice person but at least you seem to be far nicer and educated than some of the other skeptics here that like to use offensive words and come across as less than intelligent.

Anyway, there are some parts of the program that are very good, where Dawkins reminds us of how much modern medicine has benefited us etc. However, when he attacked alternative medicine I think he came across as quite narrow-minded. He argues that since alternative medicine hasn’t been proven to work scientifically, we shouldn’t use it. It’s really simple to live in Dawkins’ world isn’t it?

But then he can’t ignore the fact that there are many people who have benefited from alternative medicine - so he just attributes that to the placebo effect and says effectively that since modern medicine is also good at the placebo effect, we’d simply be better off without alternative medicine. Again, a very radical conclusion by Dawkins… oh what an un-complex world he lives in! If only everything was so simple in reality...

In reality, modern medicine is not always very good at encouraging a placebo response - conventional doctors are in fact sometimes very effective at giving the opposite effect (nocebo). For instance, if a doctor thinks that statistically speaking a patient only has 6 months left to live he will tell his patient this (because scientifically speaking it is an accurate prediction… also ironically it’s preferable for a doctor to predict less months rather than more so that he doesn’t get sued if the patient dies more quickly than expected).

I think you’ll understand that this is disastrous and shows a complete failure on the part of scientists to accept the power of the mind. It has been proven that fear and stress are detrimental to one’s health. What do you think happens to a patient the closer he or she gets to their expected death? Since people usually have a fear of death, they will naturally feel more and more fearful and anxious the closer they get to their expected death and they will in all probability die at around the time that was expected by the doctor!

This, by the way, illustrates perfectly well how science can be very efficient at pulling things apart and analyzing them – but sometimes we completely forget to look at the ‘whole picture’.

It’s possible that alternative medicine gives more than a placebo effect but even if you don’t want to accept that, the fact that it gives a placebo effect should be enough for it earn acceptance. I really don’t care if a certain alternative form of medicine can only, say, help 20 people out of a hundred and can therefore not be scientifically approved. The fact that it can help some people should be enough to support it if it can help alleviate the symptoms or even cure people that desperately need help and that conventional medicine has failed to help.

I have an aunt who, despite the fact that she’s not a smoker, was diagnosed with lung cancer two years ago and her doctor gave her six months to live. Lung cancer is terrible, but luckily, she’s a great believer in alternative medicine and she’s also a great believer in the mind’s ability to heal the body so she is still alive today. We should be grateful for people like Deepak Chopra that have devoted so much time and effort into helping people find their inner healer and to keep the hope alive with very philosophical, clear and wise writings. It is no wonder he’s such a successful writer, many people have benefited from his books.

Dawkins would have taken a much more balanced perspective if he’d concluded that we shouldn’t go to an extreme and give up on modern medicine because of some of its drawbacks like side-effects etc. We should seek advice from a conventional doctor but if it doesn’t help, we can always try alternative medicine (or complimentary medicine as it is sometimes called) because it can sometimes help. (After all, alternative medicine is very popular because it does help alleviate many peoples’ symptoms, if it didn’t help at all people very desperate people would perhaps still use it but it would be far less popular than it is today).

Take care

Lars writes:
"You’re making false accusations. In your post #364, you seem to imply that Deepak does not believe in evolution. That’s completely untrue."

We clearly understand what Skeptisch meant by Deepak's views on Evolution. Deepak's views of Evolution, Genetics and his Quantum Mechanics have been thoroughly criticized in the archives, not just at Intentblog, but at HuffingtonPost, Scienceblogs and many more sites. Go figure.

Pity Lars has to regurgitate the same nonsense about Deepak and Dawkins in a lengthy post. Wonder how much time he spends. I can criticize Dawkins in a more convincing way, and support Deepak's views much more convincingly and in an informed manner, and succinctly, than Lars did in her lengthy post.

"There are grey areas... "

And we enter the Woo Woo realm of Chopra.

No thanks.

Intentblog had this Discussion/Debate/Dialogue in Deepak's thread "Woo Woo Factor" and related threads:

http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2007/06/the_woo_woo_fac.html

Sadly, it would be foolhardy to even try to refute Lars' views, forget about debating with him.(Visit the thread above) He gets stuck like a leach and has a big ego in in defending his views to let go of any argument... Anyway he made his points and that's that. Others better don't feed her. If you want to pat his back go ahead, though. Especially Skeptisch, don't get into any sort of your 'trying to be reasonable' thing. If there is ever an ultimate troll, this is it.

#403 should read "Others better don't feed *him*... not her. "(you never know..."he" shows feminine perseverance, and peripheral respect for his opponents and draws the unwary into arguments, and keep them going like the neighborhood housewife with a lot of spare time on hands to act out her intellectuality.)

Mr. Multi (MM)

For you to make troll accusations against others is stunningly ludicrous. That you warn Skep about dialoging with Lars says your estimation of Lars is that he'd make too strong an opponent for Skep to handle. That's an insult to Skep, a revelation of your mindset, and a compliment to Lars.

The boundary between what is termed as "known science" and other ideas is flexible, and always has been. What is termed non-scientific or spurious today may become tomorrow's hard science position. Conversely, what's thought of as good strong science today may be debunked tomorrow. Having an open mind does not mind buying another's ideas wholesale. It means hearing or reading them and considering possibilities.

Lars' story of his aunt is a possible example of how mind can affect body at the molecular level.

For a good article that shows how science has to adjust its often relatively inflexible positions when new information is developed at its edges by risk-taking researchers, read "Silent Mind" by Jerome Groopman, reporting in the current New Yorker about vegetative patients, and the boundaries between the conscious and unconscious aspects of mind:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/15/071015fa_fact_groopman

(or click my name)

love, Heath

Its funny, hgquinn is trying to enlighten us about Science and scientific method it seems. I agree with the scientific spirit and self-correcting and open-ended nature of science, though.

(The straw man arguments about Dawkin's position on Evolution and Science is ridiculous.)

It seems... Deepak Chopra's pseudoscience can masquerade as science in some deluded heads somehow!

***

Re. 62

Heath, I am not "Mr. Troll". If I spell my name, you might repent; I will save you that humiliation.

Thank you, Heather, for putting MM back in his or her place.

I can’t believe that he or she wants to warn people against reading my posts (#402)! Does he or she believe to have superior intelligence to everyone else here at Intent? I think everyone here at Intent is intelligent enough to make up their own minds about things.

I’m not telling people to stop reading skeptics’ posts. I believe this is an open forum and I hope we can keep it this way and exchange ideas freely.

Clearly MM feels threatened by my post and should be honest as to why it feels threatening. If that person actually has rational objections to make to my post why can't that person simply express them?

Take care

Lars 66.

UMMM.. Pats on the back.

"Thank you, Heather, for putting MM back in his or her place."

hahaha what a joke. Pity you can't realize your place.

"Clearly MM feels threatened by my post and should be honest as to why it feels threatening. "

LOL

What wishful thinking! Deluded heads.

"If that person actually has rational objections to make to my post why can't that person articulate them?"

That would be plain stupidity, considering his(/her)history; he/she must be marked as a fool on the forehead. (o! sorry! btw, he/she has self-respect and one should not insult him/her.) his/her debating skills are poor and has a big Ego and only a fool can carry on knowing full well this...

"Lars" should seriously consider reducing the number of 'questions' in her posts -- If she is looking for a dialogue -- I suggest she/he dialogue with Depak Chopra and stop pestering others with her lengthy posts regurgitating the same things over and over again, setting up straw men, and misrepresenting scientific method and skepticism, Dawkins's Views, her opponents views and even Deepak's views!..this is just a trend. Also... can reduce the use of words "it is sad that.."(I know, I used 'pity' in last couple of posts..imitating the same...:). "I feel sorry...", "You are close minded..." etc etc.... I wonder if "he" is a "she" living in a male body.

Thanks Skep.

One shouldn't be surprised if she/he comes and accuses one of not "dialogging" -- that one "fears" something -- that one is "close minded" -- that one is "ignorant" -- etc.

And its not that others didn't try to reason/dialogue with her/him! He/she apparently likes to what she/he calls a 'debate', and more likely than not will have her last say. He/She can help herself/himself!

Skeptisch,

Hold your horses! :) Deepak is a very busy man and he did not say exactly when he was going to invite you.

Also, everyone can change their minds especially when you're writing to him in this mocking and unappreciative way. If he does go ahead with inviting you I think he would be granting you a very generous offer of his time and you don't seem to appreciate that.

If I was Deepak I would withdraw my offer because I think we all know by now that even if you were to experience spoon bending you would probably deny it so it would be a complete waste of time for both of you. Be honest about this Skeptisch - if you ever experienced something unusual would you ever acknowledge it or would you just dismiss it as an illusion?

If that Carl Sagan quote you used describes how you perceive people at Intentblog:

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

then why are you bothering to come here at all? Can’t you see that you’re completely contradicting yourself? On the one hand you’re saying that people here are hopelessly “unreasonable”, and on the other you’re saying that you’re here to “reason” with us…

Your refusal to reply to my post and to debate Dawkins’ views on alternative medicine clearly shows that you’re struggling to find ways of supporting Dawkins’ views in this instance. I tried to encourage you to reveal your perspective on things a bit more but you refuse to explain it more in depth. Most of the time you’re supplying us with quotes by Carl Sagan and accusing people of being unreasonable without detailing exactly why. I guess your presence here and your motives will have to remain a mystery.

If there was a place I thought was full of close-minded and unreasonable people, I wouldn’t waste my time there because I know I wouldn’t get anything out of it.

But I can see that the strategy that some of the skeptics here are using is to make me feel like I’m in a place full of unreasonable people. Just take some of the comments by MM, he says about me: “I wonder if “he” is a “she” living in male body” and he calls me a troll. Isn’t that something a bully would say in kindergarden?

Fortunately, I can see that this is his way of trying to drive me away from here and I hope that he and other skeptics here are more intelligent and mature than they come across sometimes.

Also, it’s fortunate that I know that there are plenty of reasonable, open-minded and interesting people here to keep me wanting to visit this place regularly.

yeah... "fortunately" ..."open-minded people"

"Lars" is one of the few eternal optimists and wishful thinker and denier. She/he can find gold even in cow dung and roll in it. I hope she/he stops probing and debating with members who show disinterest in his/her antics, behavior and debating skills and a keen lack of critical thinking skills and informed ignorance, with lengthy, self indulgent and 'on a cause for Deepak' posts. Even dogs take a hint!

To skeptisch's devotees,
If you really want to do some service to science here are a few projects that may be more worthwhile than wasting time here.

1. Object against all the rogue pharma companies that abuse and twist science to their advantage making multimillion dollar profits worldwide. They conduct clinical trials of dangerous agents in developing countries exploiting poor people, not consenting them properly and not compensating them for the horrific side effects even deaths.
They routinely suppress negative outcomes and publish only favourable data to dupe millions of vulnerable and sick patients worldwide. They are often hand in glove with researchers who stand to gain financially. They also have ties with very respectable mainstream journals to keep publishing their dubious research. A true follower of science should be indignant at this travesty of science.

2. Speak up against governments and politicians (even in developed nations ie Bush's government in US) who routinely gag, bully and sideline scientific community and suppress research in areas of science that don't fit in with their agenda.

3. Speak up against those in scientific community who are doing untold harm to the world by undermining the majority scientific opinion about climate change and the human factor partly responsible for it. It is causing delay in strong action being taken against fossil fuel burning, rainforest denudation and escalating energy consumption by nations and individuals.

4.Object to science being misused to develop more deadly weapons and more sophisticated arms which are responsible for killing literally millions of people worldwide. Science is not without its fall outs as nuclear weapons development clearly demonstrates.

There are many more but these are burning questions of today. Why irritate pacifists who all said and done do no physical harm to anybody, especially compared to what misuse of mainstream science does. Do not grudge people a few dollars or Swedish kronas for their unconventional medicine when it does much less harm to patients than mainstream traditional medicine.

someone writes,"By far from recent memory the most popular Deepak post."

I wouldn't call it the most popular I think it is more correctly called the "most spammed or trolled" post of Deepak's in recent memory...

jan..u rock girl!

Janet,
I liked you better when you were spreading the love!
Todd

I think Lars has a point. How can Skeptisch keep expecting that Deepak Chopra still wants to invite him to NY when Skeptisch just keeps mocking him? If someone offered me help with something and I just kept mocking that person, I think it would make it very unlikely that that person would still want to help me out.

I’m sure it’s the same with Skeptisch, if he offered to help someone with something and that person just kept on mocking him, he would naturally withdraw the offer. Skeptisch is clearly not as intelligent as he thinks he is and he doesn’t know how to treat people like a normal person.

Post 401,
I'll tell you what happens in spiritual and superstitious India, Janet! Countless poor patients get duped by some unethical doctors, suffer consequences of medical malpractice, are subjected to unnecessary investigations and treatments, get their kidneys taken out while under anaesthetic for something else, receive unnecessary medicine at extortionist rates and get entered into dangerous clinical trials without their knowledge as human guinea pigs. The scale of this abomination is much much larger than what alternative medicine does or does not do. Don't you feel any outrage about that?

says free thinking space,

"I’m sure it’s the same with Skeptisch, if he offered to help someone with something and that person just kept on mocking him, he would naturally withdraw the offer. Skeptisch is clearly not as intelligent as he thinks he is and he doesn’t know how to treat people like a normal person."

free thinking space,

i don't u r being fair to skeptisch!

don't u think the mockery u r talking about is brought on by a guru missing in action? damn!

i think skeptisch would show more respect if deepak would hold up his end of the the deal, don't ya think, dude? where is peepak? damn! a dialog is a two way street. no?

Diablo,

I understand your point. But don't you think it's a little strange that Skeptisch is agreeing to come to NY but at the same time he keeps mocking Deepak - any sane person would know that if you mock an intelligent person you're not very likely to get any help from that person.

Maybe, subconsciously, Skeptisch is scared of going to NY because he knows that his rigid belief system will get seriously challenged. So he keeps mocking Deepak in the hope that Deepak will withdraw his offer.

i would have to disagree with, dude, because if intelligence was the equivalent to the rule of law, an intelligent person would have settled the score by consumating a meeting...a long time ago, not go AWOL...

so when it comes to intelligence, most people are intelligent..deepak is, skeptic, you are...but i think it has more to do with ego or ideology rather than intelligence!

Dhuwa, I was thinking the same as free thinking space. You know me; you know I don't think shallowly; you know I don't attack Skep in any manner, veiled or not; you know my psychological makeup decently well; you know I'm not sick or moronistic. So do you care to reassess FTS's comment and revise your own position on it?

"Free thinking space" is an alias of a regular. First created during Dawkins-Deepak Debates at IB and HuffingtonPost. She/he generally appears when Aurora is out of action(generally because someone was hard on her). Closely shoulder in shoulder with Lars and Olivia. Enjoy their antics.

Perhaps FTS is hgquinn!

very funny, Tiger

Out of interest, is moronistic in the American dictionary? Diablo, you could tell me.

Dear Uncle Ed,

If moralistic is a word, why shouldn't moronistic be one. Most dictionaries do not cover all the variables of a word. My guess is that it would be too space-consuming. Dhuwa appears to be a smart dude who would not use a word like a moron, like a bushaman, for rxample. Damn!

Dear Deepak,
Did you really mean to invite Skeptisch to NY to experience spoonbending first hand?
(he has accepted your offer, which I am sure you know by now :-)
love,
~ Kate

THEY ARE STEALING OUT SPIRITUALITY WITH THEIR THEORIES

'Oneness'/non-dual spirituality is about reconciling the irreconcilable, in a private, personal way; the pretenders who have reconciled it for you are crooks, they have stolen you right to see for yourself; their themes are:

- We are a subtle body, an eternal angel borrowing a human form for an initiatic journey.
- We are all screwed and we die and are buried and that's it.
- nothing ever existed et we dream our lives
- We are all one God looking and sensing through million eyes.

Theses four themes and all the concepts revolving around, reincarnation, lila, illusion of a life, physical or planetary disaster, God's plan or love, etc. are used by liars and manipulators, who know nothing about what they talk about but have a dialectic agenda, a selfish ulterior motive.

The effort that makes the difference, the "effortless effort" is also an irreconcilable duality; either i am a stuffed animal hanging at a gate and moved by the wind, or my individual flame comes with a "decision" and that decision weighs and has a value, to, my thoughts are important, to, my actions matter, to, i have a responsibility to my body my well-being and that of others, to, by my peaceful and benevolent enthusiasm in my world i can make a difference.

If my actions and thoughts are important, i should know their quality and nature, to sort out those that add to the misery of the world, that impulse the immense wheel of nefarious mundane agitation, and these that bear the imprint of appeasement, of the untroubled garden of bliss that nothing can affect.

This too brings an irreconcilable duality because most actions, mundane and spiritual, express the agitation; it well seems that the spiritual approach is another Darwinian survival strategy of the species or the individual, another cultural and forced reconciliation, imposed by a mass trend, where again, the individual had little freewill.

Let us give an example: seekers review the masters who are worth the distant trip and the money (as opposed to you right here who talk about plain things that bring no new insight), there is a consensus about who is worth the spiritual listening; without consensus of the sheeple, nobody moves; we can well conceive that the unflinching individualist (they are numerous on spirituality forums) who doubt that a master would bring them anything (if Buddha was on the other side of the street he would not even cross to greet him) are, as expected, also those who find value in what everyone says, little things of the world, all the precious moments of the day ... how strange.

Skeptisch,

You think that Deepak Chopra is mocking millions of reasonable and rational people! Maybe you should come to realise that all Deepak Chopra is doing is offering a different perspective and you don’t like it. So why don’t you just ignore him?

I think that Deepak Chopra should ignore you because you’re a lost case. You showed during the debates about Dawkins that you wouldn’t even acknowledge the flaws in Dawkins’ theories. Sure, there may be flaws or questionable things that can be challenged from a rational perspective in Deepak Chopra’s views – but there isn’t a theory of everything that is actually flawless.

Dawkins admits that he can’t prove that God doesn’t exist but he guesses that he’s probably right in thinking that God doesn’t exist.

Dawkins cannot prove that God doesn’t exist so he’s actually conning and misleading people when he's asserting that God is a delusion. Therefore, we could equally argue that Dawkins is mocking intelligent people. We all know there is a market for radical and provocative books like “The God Delusion” and he’s made good money on it. But not all scientists would choose to write books about the non-existence of God because they know that there’s a problem with that – they can’t prove it scientifically!

I haven’t had time to write comments here for a while but when I saw that you refused to debate Lars when he challenged you regarding Dawkins’ narrow-minded perspective on alternative medicine – I realised that you come here and give us a lot of Carl Sagan and Dawkins quotes but when it comes to actually defending those perspectives with a little bit more depth and substance you back out. It shows that you’re really not committed in defending your views properly and that you’re just coming here to annoy people by simply telling them that they’re unreasonable without going into any depth.

Rf. 423

Maybe FTS should read Dawkins before making straw man arguments about what he said about God or GOd Delusion. FTS is sounding more ridiculous by the hour. She/ he should search the archives and see FTS' and others' arguments about Dawkins in Deepak's God Delusion debates in the archives before repeating stupid remarks and applying ridiculous logic and inept reasoning to the present situation, and to Skeptisch's views.

There is no point in trying to to be reasonable with people like FTS. She/he can make her points but they are showing their troll like behavior by trying to seek a response by provoking skeptisch and others and by setting up strawmen. To rebut point by point what nonsense some are saying here is pure waste of time of everyone.

***

It is more than clear that Deepak somehow backed off from the offer, and it would be foolish to think that it was because of Skeptisch's comments in this thread. He said nothing more (possible)offensive, that what he hasn't said in the past 2 years... I still give Deepak benefit of doubt.

Dear Hyp

Skep's not asking you guys to be quiet was one way he could have offended Deepak. Another way is when he refused to accept the offer at first. Then there was the issue of media coverage, which you guys brought up. If Deepak's offer to Skep was one-to-one, and it seems to me it was, why would he want media coverage? Couldn't he get that on his own if he wanted it? In fact, y'all have made it highly unlikely Deepak will go further with this.

Think about it: Someone often comes to the host's home and insults him. Host likes the insulter, even so, and asks him to meet privately, with hopes of creating a bond to get past the tension built up from the insults harassment. Insulter's first reaction is to turn down the invitation. Some of his friends begin to insult the host about the invitation. Others ask the insulter why, if he's so willing to harass the host, he doesn't have the nerve to meet with him. The insulter finally agrees to meet, amongst a chorus of harassment from outliers such as you, who are not only continuing to insult the host, but promising public coverage of what was intended to be a private meeting. Why should the host accept such abuse? Would you?

Why not write a weekly intent, with the specific purpose of allowing us to harass you with insults, so you can see how it feels to be on the receiving end?

I'm honestly disappointed with Skep in that he did not ask y'all to quiet down. Certainly, he's sensitive enough to know what you're doing and how it must feel to Deepak.

love, Heath

"If Deepak's offer to Skep was one-to-one, and it seems to me it was, why would he want media coverage? Couldn't he get that on his own if he wanted it? In fact, y'all have made it highly unlikely Deepak will go further with this."

This reasoning doesn't work if Deepak's offer was sincere -- if it is a one-to-one offer and he is not not playing to the choir, he could have communicated privately -- the reactions from skeptics and critics and media coverage and related noise(as some call it) is all but expected in a public forum. Deepak is well aware of this. And this should not be a point on which he should back off(if he did).

"I'm honestly disappointed with Skep in that he did not ask y'all to quiet down. Certainly, he's sensitive enough to know what you're doing and how it must feel to Deepak."

Of course you are given, you, like others who love both Deepak and Skep, wanted this thing to materialize.

And Skep need not ask anyone to quiet down. Everyone has their own integrity and voice.

The metaphors of house, host and insults can only work as an emotional appeal.

I would rather like to see Deepak Say why he did not follow up on Skep's consent, rather than presumptions and speculations by some desperate sounding supporters(on this issue, and not necessarily you) trying to make sense of the whole things based on 'Deepak cannot be possibly wrong'.

Dear Hyp

About communicating privately, there is a protocol -- although IB Admin can retrieve an email address for Skep from his typekey, the non-disclosure of same on Skep's public typekey profile is a signal to others that he is a private person, and I believe Deepak would be highly sensitive to that signal. That is one reason why a public invitation. Another reason is not to privately co-opt Skep, which would hurt Skep's credibility with other skeptics. These subtle things are the most likely reasons DC might make the offer publicly, besides the fact that this is his house. He has rude guests in his house and he's still willing to have them and to meet with one or two. That's pretty generous-hearted of him, hai na. I don't think it's emotional to look at these things, I think it's human and considerate. I do think the noise was overwhelming, and the man is a man, after all. As several have pointed out, this is DC's most active thread to date.

love, Heath

Perhaps not many are aware, Skeptisch on his own offered his email id to Deepak so that he can communicate with him privately if he so wished.

Well, the fact remains, Deepak made the offer, Skeptisch accepted it UNCONDITIONALLY (Ref. 96).

Deepak's thoughts could be way different than others seem to associate with.

The simple explanation is always the best explanation more often than not.

Ping...

Skeptisch,

I don’t think you can prove that Deepak has intentionally mocked anyone. It’s very likely that Deepak deeply believes in his theories otherwise he wouldn’t spend so much time writing and speaking about them. He’s sold over 30 million books by now and he could easily have decided to retire a long time ago.

On the other hand, it is clearly your intention to mock him (as you’ve admitted in your last post) and at the same time you’re asking him to explain certain things for you!

You write in post #411: “isn’t it a skeptic’s role to mock him back until he gives us evidence that we shouldn’t?”

Can't you see how twisted this way of approaching people is? If I was to mock you continuously, would you pay any attention to me and would you want to help me out in any way? I think you’d probably ignore me and I wouldn’t blame you for that.

I believe a skeptic's role is to question and challenge theories but in a civilized and respectful manner.

There's no need to mock anyone. The need to mock comes from a very dark place.

Other than the "ping..." above, my recent posts here are being withheld. Have I offended a devoted moderator? Perhaps this is not such an open house? Blind believers rejoice...it seems I've been muzzled. Or if this makes it thru, perhaps there are other conditions for withholding comments.

Lars, if you'd read Skep's words he says "mock him back" not "mock him". So if you say Deepak is not mocking, then you can't say Skep is mocking.

Double-standard partner.

RE: troll post #408 by FTS

"Maybe, subconsciously, Skeptisch is scared of going to NY because he knows that his rigid belief system will get seriously challenged. So he keeps mocking Deepak in the hope that Deepak will withdraw his offer"

How is Skep's belief system (which simply requires reasonable evidence before accepting certain claims as fact) challenged by a spoon-bending demo?

If the spoon is bent under controlled conditions, there is evidence supporting the spoon-bending claim. If the spoon is not bent, or a trick is employed, there is no evidence.

Skep's belief system is not undermined by either outcome. Like many of us, he’s not ready to jump up with excitement before seeing some reasonable evidence. I'm doubtful he'd be disappointed if he witnessed the first ever scientifically verified case of spoon-bending in the world. Also, he doesn’t seem to be driven by ego like some others here, and has very little on the line personally.

On the other hand, FTS has his own belief system at stake and will resort to denial, delusion, and ridiculous statements as made in troll post #408 to get attention and make themselves feel better. Discussions with such buffoons are pointless.

But for the others here, my question is as follows:

One of the issues before us is that any genuine spoon-bender is in a catch-22, because his/her credibility has been undermined so seriously by countless charlatans before them. This presents a significant credibility challenge for any real spoon-bender, because making the claim will be received skeptically by rational people.

What genuinely puzzles me, is why a guru would use spoon-bending as an example for anything they want taken seriously (e.g. non locality and non local correlation and the inseparability of blah blah blah).

Surely there is a less tarnished example that could be used? Was the offer of a demo an error by the guru? A way to quickly identify the gullible and faithful among the crowd? Something else?

Son of Skeptisch,

In reply to your post #433, I don't believe there's a double standard.

It seems you want to argue that Skeptisch hasn't actually mocked anyone, I beg to differ on that and if you read his posts carefully you'll see why.

But it doesn't matter which way you look at it - it's pretty shocking that Skeptisch believes that the role of skeptics is to mock the people they disagree with. That's just seriously twisted and immature.

Apologies for #429 and #432 being out of context. While some of my comments are still in limbo somewhere (being reviewed?), it appears that in most cases, I am allowed to post directly. Can someone direct me somewhere outside this thread to try and understand what causes a post to be withheld (other than the obvious like profanity, etc.). In my view, much more "controversial" and "disrespectful" entries are being allowed and I'd like to learn more about what the rules are and who the referees are. Thanks.

"it's pretty shocking that Skeptisch believes that the role of skeptics is to mock the people they disagree with. That's just seriously twisted and immature." #437 Lars

"shocking"?

Stop being over dramatic, will you?

Don't words in the mouth of skeptisch.

...that as if he believes that skeptics by definition have to mock at people.

And it is you who is "seriously twisted and immature". Pity you don't it and project it onto others. Your sick ridiculous arguments over and over again are becoming rally boring.

It is not the role of spirtitual people to mock at millions by propagating blind beliefs like spoon bending as a science backed reality either.

If you churn out shit, we will call it shit, whether you like it or not.

Disagreeing respectably is a subjective realm, and however sweet you might sound, you make the same point ad show the same ridicule to those who don't agree with your views. So cut your crap. And grow up. This is a forum for mature people and we understand the heated words and conversations. If your gentle heart is hurt, go find a shrink and improve your emotional intelligence, forget your lack of critical thinking skills though.

So you call yourself spiritual, as against being a skeptic?, try to act like one.

Even true spiritual people disagree(
what do you call them.. skeptics) with Deepak Chopra's spoon bending claims... which is nothing but a new age trick to give people some hope and magic to feel good.(Not some reality accepted by millions based on evidence.)

You get your respect based on your actions(even though you disagree with others' views) and not just because you are Lars and arguing for Deepak.Point is don't make straw man arguments about skepticism and skeptics and their role and their right to speak and disagree in the way they deem fit. Stop acting like a jerk and stop repeating yourself.

Lars, RE: #437. You say...

"It seems you want to argue that Skeptisch hasn't actually mocked anyone, I beg to differ on that and if you read his posts carefully you'll see why."

Not even close. I'm saying that you are applying a double standard.

To Skep, Deepak is mocking traditional science by claiming that things are "fact", despite no reasonable supporting evidence (yet).

To you, Skep is mocking Deepak by challenging him. By criticizing Skep for something your guru is doing, you are applying a double standard.

Then you say...

"But it doesn't matter which way you look at it - it's pretty shocking that Skeptisch believes that the role of skeptics is to mock the people they disagree with. That's just seriously twisted and immature."

Lars, it is you who is behaving in a twisted and immature manner, twisting the words of others with your warped interpretations.

You are too close-minded to understand that Skep is not mocking anyone for disagreeing with him, he is defending his beliefs (the scientific method) from those who attack science by twisting it for there own purposes (which he refers to as mocking.).

A word of advice... watch the movie "12 Angry Men" and pick yourself out of the group. One thing is for sure, you are not Henry Fonda.

Or perhaps you are just a simply contrarian, who's only joy is derived from bashing others for what they think, as opposed to doing some thinking yourself.

Lars, to ensure you don't misunderstand, I meant to say "simple contrarian", not a "simply contrarian".

Have a nice day.