Per the Bible, Jesus never harmed anyone. In fact, Jesus died by the hands of murders, as the lamb for our salvation (i.e., an example of perfection for us). Mankind kills and God probably never did (in the real sense of destroying the light) and in fact I've heard Spirit say, "God is innocent." Something interesting to think about as it relates to what we hear and read about. Like why would our bodies die, if they were eternal and real or mean much of anything to God or to us? I think our bodies are just vessels that we use to learn and grow, i.e., symbolic of the spiritual world (as above, so below), so surely we don't and should not go around killing in the physical world because of the short term vessels that we us, as we are learning to unite with God and to be holy. I read and study the Bible as my guideline, but Spirit teaches me and overrides any misunderstands that I might have, as I grow and as I am ready expand. It does not seem that we (most or many?) really understand God (or Spirit), as we venture to know ourself. For example, why would Spirit kill and could it kill? I don't know, but food for thought, unless it was evil? But evil really does not exist either as it's just ignorance and darkness.

Other than that many (most or some?) people seem to be confused and appear to be separated from Spirit, including myself. We make up all sorts of stories about things we don't understand to try and make sense of it all - unfortunately, me to. It's natural and normal for us to try and piece the puzzle together.

Hey, nice story as it makes one wonder and think ....

Now, I've really got to go home and return some DVD, but that title got me as I so love Jesus, who so loved the world.

Love, Char

One Day At A Time

I'm only human--
I'm just a woman.
Help me believe in what I believe
and all that I am.
Show me the stairway
that I have to climb,
Lord, for my sake,
teach me to take,
One day At A time.

One Day at a time, sweet Jesus,
that's all I'm asking of you.
Teach me today, to do all the things
that I have to do.
Yesterdays gone, Sweet Jesus,
and tomorrow may never be mine.
Lord, for my sake,
teach me to take,
One day At A time.

Do you remember,
when you walked among men?
Well, Jesus you know, if you're looking below,
It's worse now than then.
There's cheating and stealing--
violence and crime.
So for my sake -
teach me to take
One day At A time.

Marijohn Wilkins and Kris Kristofferson

Jesus is sweet
but sweeter than
Jesus is
fish.

the gunman did not
have enough of it.
He was very
unhappy

*********************8

Salutation

O generation of the thoroughly smug
and thoroughly uncomfortable,
I have seen fishermen picnicking in the sun,
I have seen them with untidy families,
I have seen their smiles full of teeth
and heard ungainly laughter.
And I am happier than you are,
And they were happier than I am;
And the fish swim in the lake
and do not even own clothing.

- Ezra Pound

What would I have done? Or, how would I need to think in order to end up in one of those roles in the drama.
Jesus withered the fig tree....hmmm.

Magneto Man would have sucked the gun unto himself.

I can imagine Deepak would have bent the barrel.

.

You will not find Jesus in any chapel.

He is The Bride of The Church.

He is not a fish. Jesus is the bait.

I am quite certain Jesus had nothing to do with any of this.

This church here in Colorado Springs is going through some difficult times. Many of my friends attend services there. They made it through their founder being booted and now this.
They will draw together and overcome.

Thanks to the courage of this security guard many more people were spared. This guy was ready to kill.

Peace and Love to all those who attend this church and even more to those families of the victims.

derek

Its amazing how Jesus is "used" all the time... to justify oneself. When you kill someone you praise Jesus and make him the reason for it.. when you hurt someone then again Jesus gets the responsibility.

Without even understanding the very basic nature of True Love, poor Jesus is subjected to all kinds of hallucination-led nonsense here in the US!

Then there is another nonsense.. that He died for salvation of the people alive. Very conveniently push your guilt away... dont take responsibility for anything.. just make that guy in a cotton cloth pay for everything!

The truth is that no one - NOT even Jesus or His Father... or Mother.. or anyone else can pay for one's sins.. for sins and virtues are figments of mind. God, if there is to be such an entity, can not and would not distinguish.. for Universal COnsciousness will be anything but Universal!

But then no one stops to think.. just routine parroting of the same thing that has been repeated for ages... its the same with all religions really.. so where does one really one start?

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,
Reading your words of late has been refreshing.
If only the rest were as enlightened as you.
Todd

"for Universal COnsciousness will be anything but Universal!"

should have read - for Universal COnsciousness will be anything but non-Universal/distinguishing!

Thanks Todd!

I try not to concentrate the utterly nonsensical debate on religion that goes on in the US - both ways! Whether one should say "Merry Christmas" on Christmas or "Happy Holidays" ... or making a mincemeat of Jesus' towering (ironically for his rather lean demeanour) character by shamefully using him to torture, to kill, to colonize, to rape, to loot everyone around the world through centuries now! Look at what happens in Africa in the name of missionary help.. how diamonds are looted from local economy and the natives take to sex trade!

If Jesus indeed did had to come for a "Second Coming", He would not even have a chance at getting a visa from the Vatican with the resources He had in the last Coming.. if He still plans on a n encore... forget about being allowed to meet the Pope!

Edifice upon edifice has been built with little inner introspection.

Tragic and hillarious is the entire industry that has come up trying to second guess Jesus.. "WHat would Jesus do..?" THAT is the worst that one can go to! Trying to reduce and utterly mess up the great epitomy of love to dwarf-ness of everyday prejudices and "hatred-directed love" - (for any Love that is directed "toward" something.. is directed against something as well!)!

If instead of giving and receiving expensive and useless gifts this Christmas .. if even a handful of people could sit down in a chair and introspect and think .. contemplate, then the spirit of that poor, lean guy who walked like a Giant could live again!

Oh well...

Cheers,
Desh

If Jesus really does return he will certainly be reincarnated and (unknown).

If Jesus were walking on Earth today he would be a lonely man. Lonely due to all the dysfunction around him. Due to all the blind and deaf - wounded - human beings. If Jesus were walking on Earth today he would orientate toward "heaven". And he might say to earth inhabitants: Enough talk; enough noise; enough clever schemes. Be still and listen within.

Trish~~

Aloha

It is just very sad... the message of Jesus is to ask God to forgive those who don't know what they are doing... not to shoot them. But I guess that works too for all is allowed.

love patty

But Dear Jesus, Why did u cursed that poor fig tree. bcoz its leaf was tender, but no fruits as u expected when u were hungry. U killed a tree for that. U didn't thought it the leafs are pleasing to eyes for many and its shade helpful for others.What if it didn't had fruits as u expected. It had many other things that others need. If u really want to do a miracle why didn't u blessed it bear a fruit than curse it. may be u were out of head.

If jesus is walking around now go there to that tree , its waiting for U. Now when u gave it its life back, and u cry on its feet asking whether u are angry to me, the tree will tell No dear Son U have learnt something thats enough for me, my long years of waiting in curse didn't went useless..

#15 Think on, dear triumph, it's a parable, but at the same time pleases Darwin. Only the fittest shall survive.
What then would be the criterion, 'fruit' of some kind?

Wa wa! the hypocrisy of people who come out against any thing religious is Amazing.

@14 Patty

"It is just very sad... the message of Jesus is to ask God to forgive those who don't know what they are doing... not to shoot them."

I wouldn't want any Christ loving( Buddha loving, Peace loving, or some new age but case for that matter) who would forgive a gunman allowing him to kill some more and even herself/himself because he "don't know what they are doing.

@6 Secret Identity

"I am quite certain Jesus had nothing to do with any of this."

So you are quite certain Jesus is living somewhere in heaven? Or reincarnated as someone unknown. Or perhaps you? because you seem to be so sure?

@8 Desh Kapoor

"Its amazing how Jesus is "used" all the time... to justify oneself. When you kill someone you praise Jesus and make him the REASON for it.."
[emphasis added]

You are stretching the imagination if you apply this generalization to the lady officer who shot the gunman in the line of duty.

Jesus is not the REASON she shot the man. She is not JUSTIFYING herself with JESUS. (Unlike Bush whose reason and justification to attack Iraq seems to be Jesus)

Jesus was her EXPLANATION. Forget about Jesus and her explanation. Did she do her duty. Did she justify the responsibility that was put on her as an law enforcement officer? I think yes. If she failed in her duty(i.e. killed an undangerous man?) she will face consequences with or without her Jesus explanation.

***********

Simple Fact:

In handling guns people are trained to kill - when needed - to save lives. If a gunman is on a shooting spree you are supposed to kill to protect other innocent lives and yourself.

Since he is a Christian, she has an explanation to cope with her ordeal. If she were a Hindu it wouldn't be hard to imagine that she 'might' have given another explanation(Publicly or to herself) -- Lord Krishna was with me(in my heart) and I had to do my Duty -- I had to kill a fellow human being. Or Muslim officer might give some similar explanation. A new age person might have given some critical matrix of thought or some consciousness explanation. An Atheist would have a more simpler explanation based on human values.

I would imagine, as a Christian she was trying to reconcile with the act of killing a person. She was trained no doubt to handle such situations. I am guessing coping with stressful situations as these in a personal way is part of the training.

More importantly she saved lives by killing. She did her duty.

What would I do?

I would do exactly what the lady did. But my explanation would differ.

What would Patty do?. We can infer the answer. She would "forgive' the gunman and endanger the lives of herself and others. But of course she wouldn't be in given the responsibility in the first place with her mindset. It's fine not everyone can be trained to kill. But don't criticize those who have the courage to do the duty in a civil society whatever be their personal explanation.

So what would Saira Mohan do?

Tell me someone what would Deepak Chopra do?

Fair enough to ask instead of "What would Jesus DO?"

Aloha BMR

you said, "I wouldn't want any Christ loving( Buddha loving, Peace loving, or some new age but case for that matter) who would forgive a gunman allowing him to kill some more and even herself/himself because he "don't know what they are doing."

Jesus actually did. Why do you think he has such a following? Why do you think people believe Jesus died for their sins? When he turned over the carts in the Temple because they brought the issue of money, he knew he would be killed. When he was on the Cross he asked God, "Forgive them they know not what they do."

Softness conquers the hard. Yielding conquers the resistant. A fact known by all men but utilized by none. Lao Tzu

love patty

@18, Patty

A person who doesn't understand the difference between Christ forgiving people who sinned (practice of forgiveness)and a policeman/woman who(as per her job) doesn't shoot someone who is about to shoot a dozen is seriously retarded.

She/he needs some serious therapy.

And further quotes "Softness conquers the hard. Yielding conquers the resistant. A fact known by all men but utilized by none. Lao Tzu" out of context.

Well, go tell that to the gunman who is about to shoot...he will pop one in your head. And we will forgive him for you dies for his sins.

Patty #18

Your theological interpretation is absurd.

"Jesus actually did. Why do you think he has such a following? Why do you think people believe Jesus died for their sins? When he turned over the carts in the Temple because they brought the issue of money, he knew he would be killed. When he was on the Cross he asked God, "Forgive them they know not what they do.""

How is that relevant to allowing a gunman kill innocent people?

It is as if you are "second guessing Jesus". If Jesus was the policeman, will he shoot or doesn't? to save lives?

But Jesus was a preacher, he would never become a policeman, I would rather imagine him in some political leader like Gandhi or spiritual guru like Deepak Chopra, who would try to preach the common man before he turns into a violent gunman on a mission.

Sure the lady who shot the gunman perhaps FORGIVES the SOUL of the gunman for HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING. But she had to kill him as per her duty to save lives!

Coroner: Colorado gunman killed himself

"(CNN) -- Matthew Murray, the man who police say shot and killed four people at two separate locations in Colorado on Sunday, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, the coroner's office said Tuesday."

" "The death of Matthew Murray has been ruled a suicide," the El Paso County Coroner's Office said in a statement.

"It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said."

[...]

"I'm telling you right now, she's the hero, not me. It was the bravest thing I have ever seen," Bourbonnais said. "She had no cover. He fired -- I heard him fire three. I heard her fire three. And she just began -- she kept yelling 'Surrender!' the whole time. And she just walked forward, like she's walking to her car in the parking lot, firing the whole time."

[...]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/colorado.shootings/index.html

Coroner: Colorado gunman killed himself

"(CNN) -- Matthew Murray, the man who police say shot and killed four people at two separate locations in Colorado on Sunday, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound, the coroner's office said Tuesday."

" "The death of Matthew Murray has been ruled a suicide," the El Paso County Coroner's Office said in a statement.

"It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said."

[...]

"I'm telling you right now, she's the hero, not me. It was the bravest thing I have ever seen," Bourbonnais said. "She had no cover. He fired -- I heard him fire three. I heard her fire three. And she just began -- she kept yelling 'Surrender!' the whole time. And she just walked forward, like she's walking to her car in the parking lot, firing the whole time."

[...]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/colorado.shootings/index.html

@22

Great Story, Pete!

Aloha BMR and waylay #19,20,21

You don't have to defend the police woman's action to me. In my orignal post #14, I said, "It is just very sad... the message of Jesus is to ask God to forgive those who don't know what they are doing... not to shoot them. But I guess that works too for all is allowed." And my prayers are for all involved for Christ's Love is inclusive.

love patty

And this is from A Course in Miracles; "When you meet anyone, remember it is a Holy encounter. As you see him you will see yourself. As you treat him you will treat yourself. As you think of him you will think of yourself. Never forget this, for in him you will find yourself or lose yourself."

love patty

Patty @ 27

You don't have to tell others and me here what Jesus preached. We all know his message of love and forgiveness. So do the policewoman.

The context here is the Christian policewoman shooting a man, who was performing her duty which is NOT Contradicting the spirit of Jesus's teachings.

It is just your are skewed and screwed up suggestive post. And justifications with sweet quotes which no one disagrees with.

It works for me. She was doing her job.

I also see it in accordance with the Golden Rule, at least for me: if I was ever out of my mind walking around shooting at people, I sure hope someone would have the good sense to take me out before I killed somebody else.

I agree with other posters that it is not a Christian thing. It was just a person who had the appropriate training instinctively doing what was right in the moment.

Call it a belief if you want, but for me the whole thing smacks of Zen/Samurai consciousness.

Personally I have never used a gun, so I don't know what I would have done. Remember this woman had police training, and she was on duty as a guard, so I think that definitely played a role in her response.

Aloha BMR

I am confused which Jesus teachings condone murder, even in defense? love patty

Oh come on you aggressive word-mongers, this is but a chapter in a very long, long story.
I regard with extreme suspicion anyone who tries to shut up another. There doesn't need to be a gun or bullets or immediate carnage. I forgive you.

Liked your story a lot, Pete.

Me2, Pete! #22 is a very kewl story.

It(the feeling) does sound familiar.

I know what it means to be beside myself.

Carl Jung would call the mute girl, Anima.

We all have plenty of time to justify our actions.

We have been re-acting this scene, this Age of Aquarius.

The Grail can only be found while it's resting.

Killing and murdering is wrong under any circumstance. We are an evil society to where one must defend themselves against another by killing or murdering each other. To kill another is to kill oneself. Jesus said what you do to another, you do to me.

I killed a squirrel when I was 16.
It was horrifying.
I've been making up for that ever since.
I have a big squirrel family that lives in the trees of my front yard now.
I feed them peanuts and give them respect.
I think they like me now.
Todd

Here's a short story of mine ....

Many years ago, I was sleeping and had a dream one night that my 2 ex-husband was swinging from a rope hanging from a very high ceiling, more like a stadium. I had a gun in my dream and I was trying to follow him with the gun, as I pondered upon shooting him, as he kept swing on this rope ... back and forth. When he turned into a laughing evil demon in my dream, I was getting ready to pull the trigger to kill him, as my phone rang and woke me up about 2 a.m.. When I woke up, I had a gun in my hand pointed at my heart. My ex-husband made me sleep with a gun under my pillow and he made me learn how to use one. I was trained with a 44 (a big, big gun that will almost knock you down with the force of it) as well as 36 Smith and Wesson known as the brothers. I was excellent with the 36 and I had a legal permit to carry them both concealed. He even gave me a pretty little 22 gun with a pearl handle for my b'day - how weird. My 2nd ex-husband was deputy that served on the force as temporary help in Alabama and that man physically abused me and even broke my nose once when I refused to allow him to give my 2 1/2 year old a mixed drink with alcohol, so that's probably why I had the dream. Shortly after that dream, I left him for good, as I knew someone was going to get hurt. What's interesting, my mother was so in tuned to me, she felt that something was wrong and followed her instinct and called me, as she said she woke up with a bad feeling. I was alone as my ex traveled a lot. I had been in California for about 6 months when this happened, which was 23 years or so ago and I am still here. I almost killed myself by killing another, even if it was a dream.

Love, Char

Since Todd shared his story, here mine ... I killed a very sick bird (love bird) about 7 years ago with my bare hands, because I was trying to save money on paying a vet to do it or fix it. That bird had lost all it's feathers and it's mate who died of the same thing. I put all kinds of medicine of it and nothing helped and it would not die. But I could not bear to look at it any more and it would bleed as it pulled the feathers out. I think it had mites or something and I could not get rid of them. It was completely naked with only bare skin. I felt it was a mercy killing. I had no idea that the act would be so horrible and I shook like a hill in an earth quake, and started crying as I performed the killing. I was so traumatized by the act that I not only broke it's neck, but popped off it's head. I will never ever do that again. It was the most horrible thing that I have ever done and it's one that I can never forget. I made a mistake out of ignorance - a horrible mistake. So, I've killed even if it was a bird and I am ashamed. I guess, I've broken all the 10 commandments and God still loves me ... amazing grace, as I am forgiven.

Love, Char

PS: Can't they now fine you money and put one in jail for killing animals in the US? I think that's more on the abuse side (i.e., not legal hunting), so it's probably not safe to confess to killing an animal, but that was before those animal protection laws and it was still wrong of me, even if it was a mercy killing, as I thought that was okay.

And I have great news! I just heard back from City Team Ministries in San Jose ... they are going to help this homeless man that we were concerned about as it's getting very cold now. They will give him clothes, food, and a warm place at their facility. If the gentleman will not accept shelter as so do, they will bring him warm clothes, blankets, and food. I can only say praise our Lord Jesus Christ! My heart is sing with joy as I push back the tears. I am so happy right now ... the joy of giving is truly a precious gift from God.

Love, Char

PS: Jesus is so very sweet ... truly and forever and is faithful always.

@ 30 Patty

"I am confused which Jesus teachings condone murder, even in defense? love patty"

That's a straw man. I said, "The context here is the Christian policewoman shooting a man, who was performing her duty which is NOT Contradicting the spirit of Jesus's teachings."

The spirit of Jesus's teachings *DID NOT* ASK YOU TO PRACTICE "MORAL INDIFFERENCE".

You seem to live in a black and white world of RIGHT or WRONG. No wonder your interpretation of events and words is retard...like a fundamentalist jesus freak who interpret the words literally. No doubt you are confused.

What the police woman did was take the moral responsibility (and her duty) to stop a gunman from killing innocent people, and in the process he gets killed. It is NOT against a moral conduct one derives from spiritual teachings from story of Jesus or any other world's traditions.

See..the question of Evil is complex one. In the wold we live in, many times one 'has' to choose between a lesser and and a greater evil as a human when faced with practical problems of the world. (a security guard) to not choose the lesser evil(to shoot to stop (disable) the gunman from killing some more in the current case) is moral indifference and is a far greater wrong. If the gun man dies in the process pray for him. Pray for his soul. Pray for his forgiveness!

Patty, It is confirmed you are a bigot(of the benign kind) with your fundamentalist righteousness.

#39 goes for you too...Char

"I am confused which Jesus teachings condone murder, even in defense? love patty"

Jesus doesn't condone anyone who doesn't 'try to stop' a person who is killing innocent people when he has the ability to do so....perhaps also anyone who would want to interpret his teachings that way.

She did not "murder" him, nor "killed" him in "self defense". she cared less for her life, than to protect others from the volley of shot by trying to disable his body from shooting.

"Killing and murdering is wrong under any circumstance." Char

The lady did not kill the gunman, he killed himself. He knows full well that he would be killed. It is more a suicide. It is only he who is responsible for his death. Period.

You can as well interpret this as 'it was God's will to protect the innocent'. That's why he acted through her. And it is only the body that dies. No one can kill or murder a soul. It is God's responsibility beyond our understanding of right or wrong.

And to all of you here who did not read the news item properly:

Jeanne Assam DID NOT say that 'Jesus' was with her. She said 'God' was with her.

__---
""I just said, 'Holy Spirit, be with me.' I wasn't even shaking," Assam said. "I give the credit to God. I say this very humbly. God was with me.""
_----

Experience of God is beyond Jeusus' teachings.

Saira Mohan's subject heading got you all raged up in emotional fire of sweet Jesus. You guys at Intentblog have to go far ahead in your balanced understanding and spiritual awareness.

How sweet the honey that bees reluctantly ce-de.

I was on my way to the *Temple* the other day, when I met a pharisee. How come he was not there before me?

Say waylay,

How do you keep from practicing all four(forces) Yoga types every day?

I say, start the morning with a devotional.
(This is a day the Lord hath made. Rejoice and be glad.)

Then, I suggest some mild stretching and easy poses.

Follow that up with the duties of the day.(Work before pleasure.)

Any and every chance break you come across can be

an opportunity for advancing one's store of knowledge.(Be temporarily unsociable.)

End the day in gratitude, if at all possible.

This daily life of passing the time...always having something,

some event in the future to look forward to...

to feel apprehensive and secure with the risks we must take...

The thought of dissolution(an answer minus respect)

never crosses my mind. Keith cannot go anywhere

without me, nor I without his body, blood and guts.

The more you talk about it, the longer it sticks around.

I now shut my trap. Case closed, but mind is open-ended.

During WW11 some people hid Anne Frank from the Nazi Germans. Those people were very brave. Had the Germans broken into the house, would the father of the house have killed one of them?

I think detachment arises naturally as the spiritual path unfolds. If adopted prematurely and intellectually then we can get justification for all sorts of horrors.

I think it is what we intend that God may be concerned with, not so much our foolish ways.

Intent is a much more sublime vibration. It's out there wiht Avtar's 96%. It goes straight to the Heart, no obstacles in its way.

Yay, we are, 'Wanted, dead or alive.' Someone tried to involve a cat in that, too, as I obscurely see it. Nice try, U2 Avtar.

Yes, it was a cat taught me all I know, unscrewtable!

Saira (and others):

Please check these pictures out - on what kids have to say to God.. really cute.. check my name link - or use this URL: http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=content/kids-and-god-innocence-holiday-season

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

#51 Regarding my comments on detachment. I think it is necessary at the beginning to practice detaching oneself from the onslaught of someone elses bad mood. And endeavoring the same in one's self (in order to remove it.)
Sorry, but I thought what I said needed some elaboration.

Galatians 5:22, 23

And the fruit of Spirit is: Love, joy peace, long-suffering (allowing), kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Love, Char

Jesus is sweet, indeed. We should not blame jesus for the shooting. When innocent lives are being taken, it's ok to take up the arms and stop the injustice.