Nice.

Are we all not perhaps simply timeless space, methinks also; the 'endless cycles' being but finite preceptual, aye even theoretical precepts of physical perception, by which we seek to understand infinity.

Aye.

Peace

It's nice to see your shining face again.

Maybe "God" is just a text message for "Good".
You know how those kids can be.

Dear Desh,

You really are an art scientist. You CAN paint with words :)

Well, perhaps i am now ready for Avtar's formula!

Mieke

Hello again, Desh!

If by 'rehash' we mean, "to induce the deja vu' effect",

what do you call what we do the first time around?

Can anything any longer be original?

God has good reason for joining us to His memorable memory lapses.

I once forgot myself for a moment.

Peace to you!

Across time:

Before we had children, my husband befriended a man named Swift Eagle and his family. He was Tewa Pueblo and he came to the Adirondacks every summer to demonstrate his Native American dances for the tourists at the amusement park up north.

So one evening he invited us to his home for supper. He asked me to hold out my hand . He put his hand about 3" above mine and asked if I could feel the heat. I was taken aback because my husband was his friend. I was just tagging along.

I couldn't feel the heat but I left my hand there long enough because I assumed he had something to tell me.

Today I am wondering why the Indian chiefs array their heads with a crown of beautiful feathers. It could be likend to the rainbow body of Milarepa, the nimbus of the buddhas, and the crown of thorns of Christ.

ou

Hello Desh and Everyone,

Desh, very nice!

have a wonderful day everyone, ruth(the orig)

How can there be 'living' without the wherewithal of 'duration'?

I never cease to be amazed by my original face.

And if I live in truth, I am living honestly with myself alone.

Now, what kind of fun is that, if That is me?

It is This kind. The kind who could care less about clocks.

Please allow me room to move, for stability makes me tighten up in cramps.

Thanks all so much for the kind words!

Chop: I sometime think of writing but... lets see..

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Dear Desh,

That's one helluva post. Great analytical reasoning which also manages to expose the fallacy of logic in the given situation.

'The existence of a force, any force, is a belief. A matter of faith. A faith that tries to reconcile the "creation" of matter from something that is really nothing! It is a circular fallacy that has failed the best brains in science and religion and made them subservient to the eternal argument of "faith in a force".'

'The only way one can go beyond these circular fallacies is when one imagines and is the mass-less, matter-less intelligent observer occupying no space and not bound by time.'

Aye to that!!

I really enjoyed it.
Thanks.

Desh,

Because, physicists say, of the electromagnetic forces! Has anyone seen the electromagnetic forces? No. We "know" they exist, because we have seen their "effects

Is it we believe simply on electromagnetic forces or is it these effects are named electromagnetic forces. NAme of these effects are electromagnetic. Its just to distinguish from each other and identify easiy we name something. a baby is born with out name , the effect the matter we see there(baby), is given a name by parents(physcists) for easy dentification purpose..For further researches.

I think its not only eye the sense organ we have..if some one comes behind u touches u , u know it without seeing. What abt smell from kitchen u get. Just said not to ignore other senses.

We cannot see minute particles in environment with our naked eye ,but it doesn't mean they don't exist just we r not capable.With aids we can see them.

About electrons subatomic particle justfor ur scientific mind there even more minute things than electrons even the neutrons are subdivided to quarks etc...electrons do occur space in current physics ,it orbits at diff levels around nucleus.

What do u mean by time.Simple time as we know divided by day night is done by man as reference points easiness..Months for eg is different at diff regions according to people at place found out a way to refer. Than the now widely accepted, bcoz to get connected to more people and easiness of communion it is accepted. when societies were smaller each region had their own.

actually i donno what is that u meant by time.

For matter to exist may be only single particle is required and with combitnation of it and non existance any permu and comb is possible...Just a thought like 0 and 1 can make infinite combination..existance and no existance.

Strikes me everything's a metaphor, in effect.

Neetu:

Thanks for the nice words!

Triumph: Referring to time, I am not looking at any particular measurement as in hours or seconds.. but at a more generic level - i.e.; movement in space... from point A to point B.

We believe in the "force" called God without seeing Him, because of the effects of His "existence" - based on the assumption that He should exist!
*****
We believe in the "force" called Electromagnetics without seeing it, because of the effects of its existence - based on the assumption that it should exist!
*****
When one becomes beyond time and space - one can truly say that "he" is beyond the fallacies and living in the "truth".

In a more specific sense, electromagnetism is a hypothesis, not a belief. Its a construct operating according to certain defined mathematical and physical principles (which are themselves hypotheses or axioms).

There's a big difference between a hypothesis and a belief. A hypothesis means "it's the best explanation we have come up with so far, after throwing all the tests and explanations we know of at the phenonmenon."

Hypotheses are open to revision, whenever someone comes along with a new test or explanation that does a better job than the current one.

A belief is different: a belief is just a declaration. "A God exists and here are his properties." No real proof is offered, no rigorous testing need be applied.

Hypotheses that hold over time do so because they stand up to repeated testing, and no better explanations have been found for a long time.

An axiom in mathematics, as you know, is a basically unprovable assertion, but it has the redeeming quality of working every time we use it.

These are not the same things as beliefs, and that point has become a real stickler for the IB posters.

The difference between a scientist and a priest is that a scientist is willing to have their axioms, hypotheses, and worldview disproved if a more elegant, better one is comes which stands up to rigorous testing and application.

A priest, on the other hand, has a belief system that he is charged with upholding for people who have faith in that belief system, regardless of what is happening in the world of science.

A mystic does a third kind of exploration. Through meditative practice he experiments by subjecting himself to different states of consciousness, and exploring his own beliefs and psychological makeup. Yoga and sannyas philosophy in particular are dedicated to stripping back all things that can be identified as temporary mind constructs to see, and directly experience, if there is something eternal and primary within us.

That kind of mystical exploration is not dependent upon any belief system, but it is also not a rigorous physical science. It has come to be called "spiritual science", which is unfortunate because that term makes people think it conforms to the principles of western science, which it does not. "Exploration of consciousness" is a term I personally like much better.

Now, I have spoken somewhat abstractly here, because in the real world, there are scientists who get too attached to their favorite hypotheses and may defend them emotionally, not rationally.

In the real world, politics sometimes interferes with science and new hypotheses that should be given equal opportunity get squashed down by moneyed and political interests. This has often been noted by the scientists we have here at IB, and I acknowledge, it can be a big problem. It's a legitimate complaint.

Conversely, priests start blabbing about science in an effort to appear more convincing to the adherents of the belief system they are charged with preserving, and that further muddies the waters. Also, the politicians start meddling in the religions. Politicians look at a religion and see a potential goldmine of political support. So that muddies things up even more in the real world.

But when you strip it back to abstraction, the point is there are basic differences between axioms, hypotheses and the sciences they underlie on the one hand, and beliefs and the belief systems they underlie on the other.

That is why science is not a belief system and religion is not a science. The confusion on this very important point causes a lot of suffering, because it prohibits people who want to be considered faithful from doing proper science, and it censors the scientists because they are given the mandate to conform to what priests, politicians, and their followers want to believe.

re #13

yogi-one....great explanations! thank you.

ruth(the orig)

Thanks for posting these jewels.

Kafka's Castle Analogy, in particular, strikes a chord with me.

Kurt Godel, Einstein, Kafka what great men!

science, mysticism and art meets seamlessly...

A force was telling me
Use this pen black-ink
"Dictate your thoughts"

Completing with gentle manners
And warm-flatteries
"You want a glass of milk?"

There
From there
I went out of the picture

A wind... I am scared
As strong as an univers, maybe
I was despaired-impressed

But no
No
The scariest was not about the wind

But what is that?
My arms, my feet and for sure my face
None conscious of this wind

The invisible, right in front my attention
Blowing like infinite little knives
Coming from the path of what-should-be-next

Me, my family, the world
Are going in that direction
It's a question of survive
Nobody questioning that point

The glass of milk exploding
The ink air-flowing
Trying to mix in vain

This wind like a wall
Is the no-where
Where I have to thing again
Cause now, No doubt about this doubt
I really don't know who I am.

Like a hero
I am sorry
But I must fall...

Thanks Desh for such a great discussion.And thank you waylay and yogi-one for posting all that great commentary.

This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately, but haven't yet 'formalized' my thoughts on the subject. I have never really understood why science and mysticism should be so at odds with one another. Sometimes just bringing up the subject of 'truth' causes arguments.

So, again thanks everyone for this.

Bonnie

Thanks all (sp. waylay and Yogi-one) for the great discussion!

My premise here is pretty simple - that there are a lot of "truisms" that we have made up to handle causality. It makes sense often and make us feel safer in our ignorant make-ups.

As for the arguments between Mysticism vs Science; well mysticism or spirituality is not the only antagonist of the scientists, even when mathematicians have had a tough time when they pitted their skills against the physicists. Its basically a turf war and is no different from a Mullah who defends why the "believers" are superior to the "non-believers".. same turf war.

In any case, I am just asking questions.. which anyone can...

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

There are three kinds of faith or knowledge :
i) Imitative acceptance - we accept something because a trustful person has said it.
(Someone tells that there is a man in the house.)
ii) Reasoning - cause and effect (We hear a voice from the house and then deduce that there is a man in it)
iii) Experiencing thru witnessing - which is not essentially 'seeing' alone. (We go inside the house and feel his presence)

Desh #12 Referring to time, I am not looking at any particular measurement as in hours or seconds.. but at a more generic level - i.e.; movement in space... from point A to point B.

What space 3Dimensional..Then is that so called movement be same to all people.Movement in space from a To b. Assume A TO B distance is const.Then time calculate the movement. BUt this time is diff for diff people some reach there faster some slow to same point B starting from A.

so my next q is what u mean by space?

same words convey diff meaning to diff persons this is a limitation in language ..so to convey ones thoughts to others through verbal language it req more time to get exact thing one intents.

Really really interesting. Desh, you make it easier to understand the universe.
Thank you, and I hope we will see more posts from you!

/Madelene

When one becomes beyond time and space- there will be nobody who can say truly that “he” is beyond the fallacies and living in the “truth”. “He” becomes “truth”.
So don’t waste your time in cause and effect and all kind of mind stuff about god, science and so on…
Meditation is the only solution because meditation will helps you to go beyond mind to no-mind. I don’t mean meditations created by so-called spiritual teacher (moon mind), who are going on inventing any kind of meditation.

Every so-called law, scientific concept or analysis can be transcended.
Todd

Truth is beyond qualification and restriction.
Todd

Hmmm.... seems like my breakfast today was on my own words, dug out of the archives and mirrored back to me...
Thanks for not digging out all stupid stuff I said!

lol.. isn't it all about beliefs eventually?

I like what Stewie says in Family guy (while doped, mocking the philosophic angles of druggies).. "I think the reason people die is because they take it to be inevitable" lol