*****Spiritually speaking, the mass is equivalent of the ego built of bounded consciousness energy in thoughts, emotions, convictions, and beliefs of the mind.*****

Avtar, excellent post. I give you 5 stars out of 5 stars.

Dear Avtar,

"each mass must dissolve alone within itself to become energy to achieve Oneness with the universal consciousness or the Zero-point energy"

So what is then the point of discussing science or philosophy or anything?

Have you written this piece to receive reactions?

Mieke

Hello Avtar! Welcome to 2008!

You are still in our Time Zone, right?

As Mieke has pointed out, what you say here

will not be taken lightly by the few people who

happen-chance upon reading this essay today.

It has been tried before...this ousting the peoples God.

You do not believe in Deepak's idea of reaching for THE critical mass?

You do not believe, as DK proposes, that L-O-V-E

of humanity IS a totally collective experience available to all?

Rumi frequently spoke of a certain type of 'emptiness'.

Do you believe you are reinforcing this self-same idea?

In my understanding of the process, the whole REASON

Be-Hind the desire for Emptiness is the wanting,

or the longing for Fullness: To be filled with the Holy Spirit.

.

I say, humanity is a successful ongoing endeavor.

That which has failed has passed away.

That which produces fruit is still here.

Religion is one of those Thats!

.

It is okay to disagree with you, isn't it?

Have a nice day. Peace & Love, Keith

Hello Avtar and Everyone,

Enlightenment isn't really about us(personally) as I see it. It is really about the One, Oneness if you will, the Source or whatever IS that we are the tool of, part of, speck of in this Universal Consciousness desiring to experience itself through the human vehicle and whichever human vehicle gets it, whenever it gets it does not really matter...it's not personal...anyway, it 's not at all about me...or you...or them..or us...or science or religion or anything...it is all about the ONE...realizing the ONE....and since there really is no time, no place, no distance, no-thing...what does it matter? So, if ONE in the mass looks back over their shoulder and re-cognizes itsSelf...as the ONE...mission completed. AHHHHHH!

have a wonderful day eveyrone ruth

Ha dear Ruth,

Yes indeed, mission completed :)

Avtar hasn't told me a single thing that i hadn't already read in Harb's book. So why bother anymore.

Good luck with the elections this year in the United States!

Mieke

Hello again Avtar and Everyone,

hmmmm...here is a question..how large a mass does it take to enlighten one master?

and forgot to stay Happy New Year Avtar!

dear Mieke,

thanks, we need all the good luck we can muster from all corners of the globe as far as our elections are concerned...and it is always interesting to hear another's perspective on something and while reading through one can agree with much said but end feeling something just does not ring true and try to put one's finger on exactly what is missing for you to be satisfied...with the perspective.. whatever it is...

have a wonderful, wonderful...day..evening..always everyone, ruth

Enlightenment is as enlightenment does.

Believing someone is enlightened is like believing Jesus rose from the dead. You either have to be there to experience it or take it on faith from someone who was there.

In my limited world I have never experienced someone who is enlightened. Nothing anyone has said or anything I have read seems any more enlightened than my grandmother.

How would one know if they were in the presence of an enlightened being?

derek

Once I have asked to Avtar Singh, what is different between you and Buddha? His answer was: It is a good question.
Moon minds know and they are convince that they know, it is absolutely true that En-lighten-ment literally means the process of becoming lighter or less heavy or lesser mass. This process is also scientifically equivalent to the spontaneous decay process of mass (particle) converting to the radiative light energy, similar to the radiation of light coming from sun or a particle manifested as a wave (energy). Now if moon mind know this fact then where is the problem for this moon mind to be enlighten?
Enlightenment is an opportunity given at birth to all human beings, while bodily death is a certainty over time.
Then why this Moon mind is missing this opportunity?
Enlightenment is awakening or awareness and not a journey as such with a prescribed path(s), distances, and a destination. - As the question – “What is Enlightenment?” and the consciousness-integrated Holistic Relativity’s illuminating answers are as if Enlightenment is the destination. Like someone ask what is Beauty? - The only way to realize beauty is sitting in front of the Sunset or looking at a beautiful flower and what one experience, there is no way to explain. The more one try to explain, he loose the experience of beauty.
Moon minds are trying to explain enlightenment without realizing enlightenment. Just imagine all Buddha who has realized enlightenment and cannot explain.
That’s why all Buddha from Shiva to Buddha and from Buddha to Osho invents some technique to realize, that which cannot explainable. These techniques call Meditation and all technique is tool. Now it is up to you to use this tool to realize or throwaway thinking that it is not a ticket to enlightenment.
“Millions of people who may have been meditating for many years see no signs of enlightenment in their lives.” You must have trying meditation technique and I am sure you never have signs of enlightenment.
I have many friends who have been Meditating and finally they come to conclusion that may be they need a living enlighten master or some shaman or some spiritual teacher. Mostly of them are lost not because meditation technique is wrong. For example 2500 years ago Buddha invented a technique call VIPASSANA. (Vipassana is such a simple thing that even a small child can do it. In fact, the smallest child can do it better than you, because he is not yet filled with the garbage of the mind; he is still clean and innocent.) Very simple (as that time people were simple) just to observe breath which is coming out and going in, now why this technique is so difficult with modern men, just try even 30 second is to much to observe your breath. Just observing breath mind falls down to the center of source look at baby, they take breath from bally as you grow mind becomes the center that is why millions of people who may have been meditating for many years see no signs of enlightenment in their lives. Moon mind are so much attach to their mind that it is almost impossible to realize for them. How a moon mind can drop his philosophy, theology, scientific observation and theory and so on… you are talking about millions of people who are meditating, what about other billions who never did meditation?
Moon-Minds are stuck with tool. Everyone comes to earth with mind (Earth-Mind) having greatest possibility to go beyond mind (No-Mind).
Mediation is the only solution to go beyond mind.

Dear Mieke:

#1: “So what is then the point of discussing science or philosophy or anything?”

The Holistic Science provides the objective and validated insights (as a tool) to achieve enlightenment? Without universal evidence or validation, any assumptions or self-judgments of enlightenment could be mere hallucinations or crapshoot.

#4: “….Avtar hasn't told me a single thing that i hadn't already read in Harb's book. So why bother anymore.”

This only tells how much (or little) you have been able to grasp the universally validated scientific/spiritual concepts of Holistic Relativity. No need to bother either if you feel already enlightened with the ultimate wisdom of the paradoxical Quantum Mysticism and fluff.

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Dear Keith:

“You are still in our Time Zone, right?”

I would rather be in timeless eternity than a Time Zone, yours or else’s.

“It has been tried before...this ousting the peoples God.”

Only people can oust people’s God(s). Only as a child grows up, hopefully it would grow out of its security blanket or teddy bear. However, there is no guarantee. I would for sure not even try to snatch that blanket or teddy bear from the child and patiently wait for it to grow out of it at its own using the validated wisdom of the spiritual masters. The universal God exists irrespective of and beyond the peoples self-made or impersonated Gods residing as holographic images within their fixed space-time boundaries.

“That which produces fruit is still here……Religion is one of those Thats!”

Bliss could also be a fruit of ignorance. Only in that sense…may be you are right?
On the other hand, the terror, violence, and wars rampant in the world today and ensuing suffering of “Humanity” are also fruits produced by the very same “Thats!” - Dogmatic Religions. Humanity would be a lot better served without such “Fruits!” – Thanks but No Thanks.

“It is okay to disagree with you, isn't it?”

Yes, always; please be my guest.
However, ignoring, disliking, or disagreeing with the universal laws leads one nowhere. I am not a preacher or healer. What I am saying are not my beliefs, philosophy, or ideology, but what the scientific observations of the universe and the wisdom of the spiritual masters are pointing to as the One (non-dual) universal reality. Ignoring it, in favor of the man-made religious dogmas (impersonated gods, rituals, beliefs etc), is the free-willed choice of everyone. You are not and will not be the first one to make that choice; millions/billions have made and will keep on making that choice. However, the mass appeal or following does not qualify it to be “Humanity”. Mass appeal could very well be a sheep mentality. That would be disrespecting and undermining the true humanity, its purpose, its grace, and its creator.

Moreover, the universal truth and laws are not determined or affected iota by mass (critical or not) appeal (even of the mainstream science). They exist eternally and omnipresently at their free will. And until they are understood and lived by, “Humanity” will never be truly served beyond a temporal consolation or self-gratification.

True humanity – the humanity of Jesus, Buddha, and Nanak cannot be realized without egoless and choiceless awareness of the enlightenment. Adherence or blind following of dogmatic religions won’t cut it. The universe, the wisdom of the ages, the spiritual masters, and Holistic Science - all are giving the same One common message clear and loud. Only the listeners would listen, and the seekers (with open-minded faith) would find.

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Dear Ruth:

#5: “hmmmm...here is a question..how large a mass does it take to enlighten one master?”

Answer: ZERO. Enlightenment has no critical mass.

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Love

Avtar

Thanks for giving me the time of day, Avtar!

I agree with you on at least one point, and that is:

Enlightenment, however it is being defined, is like

Salvation via Christ.

They are both for the individual.

It is all about one person, one at a time.

It is not only about one person getting anything.

It is also about a willingness to serve the best interest of mankind.

.

That has 1000 faces, but This is much more readily digestible.

.

Peace bro!

Thank you Avtar for your thoughtful comments. Of course you are right from your point of view. Science aims at universal evidence or validation. Therefore it is called science :).

I will therefore never be able to unite science and intuition within myself. I am just not able to. Inner knowledge is more important to me and in my case it has a lot to do with intuition.

I would like to wish you every success in the world with your book and truly hope that your formulas will find recognition in the scientific world. I "gnow" what you mean, however I cannot grasp the formulas :)

I will go and study physics and mathematics a bit further and perhaps, who knows in a few years i will have a better understanding.

All the best to you from

Mieke

hello Avtar and Everyone,

it seems to me that the universe would not exist if there were not a need for it and the universe is made up of a mass of objects which we(humans) are but one tiny part....so it would make sense to me that in order for the Source to SELF-realize mass was needed otherwise why is the universe in existence..to get to enlightenment one need to penetrate the mass of one's ego..one's universe.hmmmmm.ponderings.

have a wonderful day Avtar and all, ruth

When one has realized that all is One, one sees ego too as part of the One and hence One and as divine or spiritual.

Just as if one has truly realized that all is One, one will see all species such as minerals, plants, animals and man also as One or serving Its scheme of things at their respective levels by playing certain roles (like Rumi), similarly, if one has truly realized that all is One, one will see all man's phases such as those led by what psychologists call senses, id, ego and superego, (childhood, youth, middle age and old age considering life as a whole) also as One or at least serving Its scheme of things and seeing thus will not overly bash up ego. What all we see, enjoy today is product of the ego too.

Everything is at its place and necessary for the universal scheme of things and within that human scheme of things to display itself fully. And everything will pass out when its time comes for that. Nothing is permanent, nothing is gained for ever nothing lost, all is change, all comes and goes in cycles.

Harb

PS: One gets enlightened and hence feels lighter not because one now has to carry less load of mass/matter, but because one has now become truly One with all and everything and not one the carrier and the other the carried. One (God, Universe?)will be the 'lightest' even if it contains 4% of the solid matter lol.

Ego serves a purpose, how else can the One be many? How long could you bathe in a field of ecstasy and bliss before you become numb to it needing contrast?

The question is not ego to be or not to be, but rather if it is is endowed with wisdom (enlightenment - wise knowing) , and intelligence or ignorance and fiction. How does one create a quality experience?

So is the story you write based on intelligence and wisdom or ignorance and fiction?

From the perspective of ultimate and pure Being both noun and verb, without disguise, all form is a temporary fiction and only the experience is real. Reality is that all of “that” other than the void of nothing, potential and the witness (pure being), is a fiction, just a story created by the author, the witness.

So that the witness has many points of view is not a thing to be dissolved, but an experience to be relished, rather it is the fictions in one’s mind and the illusions, at least most of them, that one might dissolve to improve their quality experience?

Is it not experience that gives depth to soul?

“Life is an illusion, but the experience is real”
~Infinite Play the Movie

Harb at #12:

"PS: One gets enlightened and hence feels lighter not because one now has to carry less load of mass/matter, but because one has now become truly One with all and everything and not one the carrier and the other the carried. One (God, Universe?)will be the 'lightest' even if it contains 4% of the solid matter lol"

Thanks, when this One experienced the Oneness, it felt and experienced itself as Light as a feather :)

Love, Mieke

I could suddenly dance through life although i still carried the same mass!

Einstein's general theory of relativity is a field theory of GRAVITATION in which the field describes the curvature of space-time.

To me: the Light curling back towards itself.

Mieke

Dear Avtar,

Your use of the word "universal consciousness" dosn't work well when explaining the state before consciousness and the universe arose. The universe and consciosness is of matter and energy, which is an expression of Eternity and not Eternal. A better term to describe the Ultimate state is Absolute Awareness, which is not conditioned by time. You see we need the word unconsciousness to describe another state of being in energy, and the universe is in the realm of the tempral exsistence and not reality. Kurt

No words can describe the elation I feel at this moment, after reading the article!!!!!!!!

For me it was validation...Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us...