Good stuff Dr. Singh!

Peace

I agree with the basic ideas of all this, however, some of it still reads a little like dogma to my eyes.

For example, the last two paragraphs are something I've heard countless eastern mystics and new-thought pioneers say. As we have here, the statements are put forth as assertions only, as unquestionable self-evident truths.

If we are going to question traditional dogmas we also have to take the stance of questioning our own assertions, to be careful that our mystical insights are not simply watered down to the level of "this is how it is" kind of statements.

One of the issues is with the shattering Avatar describes. It is a never complete process. He is describing a kind of multidimensional fractalization of the eternal reality. Inside this process there will always be more realms to explore, more fulfillment of creativity expressing itself in endless new variations of both known and unknown forms.

We thought at one time atoms were the bottom. Then there were subatomic particles, and eventually quantum fluctuations, etc. Similarly, the question now is what was happening before the first however-many-billionths of a second (Plank time-scales) after the big bang, and what was before the big bang, and whether there are countless bigs bangs, etc, etc...

So you will never get to the end of it. The solution proposed here (not simply by Avtar but countless mystics) is to pop out of the whole thing (without experiencing physical death). Supposedly, we are told, this is what the Buddha (and Jesus, and Ramakrishna, etc) accomplished and that freed them from any kind of suffering whatsoever for all eternity.

Hmmmm....as the saying goes, extraordinary claims need extraordinarily convincing backing evidence. Unfortunately we don't have any of that besides anecdotal evidence, and in Jesus' case, it is all at least from 100 years after he left the physical form.

Now, I myself believe that Ramakrishna and others did actually experience profoundly deep states of consciousness. As did my master, Osho, and no doubt Maharishi too.

Osho physically succumbed to a number of physical body ailments. What his attending physician and dentist relate about this is not that Osho did not feel the pain and discomfort of these ailments, but rather that his whole standpoint from which he held the experience of bodily ailments had shifted.

Osho' dentists tells of working on root canals with Osho, and Osho refusing any pain medication, even when the dentist knew what he was doing in Osho's mouth should have been blowing him out with pain.

Instead, there was no response - not even involuntary flinching. When asked about his, his reply was - "you do the dentistry- that's your business. I'll handle my pain, that's my business".

Having just been through a bout of flu accompanied by migraine headaches, I'm here to testify that the illusory non-existent pain still hurts - a lot, in fact.

Somehow, reading that we should just pop out of it falls short. I still had to suffer the illness, and wait for the pain to subside according to its own.

I did lots of meditating on pain last week, because frankly, there wasn't much else I could do at the time.

And for me, as always the analogies work their way back to music.

In music, you may know all the music theory, have practiced the patterns and songforms many times, but in the final analysis, in live performance, it comes down to placing the right notes exactly in their proper space-time slots, and with the correct nuance as well.

At some point, it does come down to having skill and mastery over functioning inside the limitations of space and time.

In fact, I would submit that the people who have advanced mastery of functioning inside space-time limitations are the same ones who will be most prepared to transcend it, because that transcendence depends on a deep understanding of processes controlled by space-time limitations.

Similary, I believe mankind will overcome being restricted by gravity, but that too will come from an intimate knowledge gained by working inside the constraints of gravity. That knowledge is prerequisite for understanding what is needed to pop through those limitations.

Just like the musician who can play freeform the best is also the musician who has the deepest understanding of traditional songs and time signatures.

Maybe the illusion is that they are even two separate things at all.

So, maybe our salvation is not separated from our everyday lives. Perhaps, and this is conjecture too - God has said - "you want to transcend - ok, here is a lifetime filled with millions of moments, any one of which you can use to gain cosmic wisdom, and know what I know. Go for it!"

And we spend our lives with eternity right in front of us, thinking it lies somewhere else.

Searching for (eternal) love in all the wrong places, as it were.

Maybe the closest I'll get to God for the next several months will be through meditating on the pain of a migraine.

Avtar,

I don't agree with some of what you stated. But it gives me a chance to present my Proof for Immortality. Although it may not be a mathematical proof it could be considered a conceptual proof that math could support.

The human body is a data set. This data set is transferred repeatedly throughout life and it is the data representing the body that is persistent. Data can last eternally if there is a continuity of available storage mechanisms during that duration. In a stateful universe there may not even need to be physical storage if the entire universe replicates from the previous state into a new state. Experience is the observation of a change in state. In theory any state of the universe (data set) could be observed with time being irrelevant because you are simply looking at a huge data set that exists outside of time. Data is beyond the effects of time. It is because we are simply experiencing a complete data representing the universe in consecutive states at a particular point in a cause and effect chain. But that is another topical area.

The physical material of the body is not persistent; the data is persistent. A life term is only limited by the ability to replicate the data provided the life force or animation principal persists. It is the destruction of data set that results in a terminal condition that or the inability to properly replicate the data set. After enough failures the logic needed by the system and it’s integrated sub systems is degraded to such a degree that the sub-systems fail causing the entire system to fail. In other words the system develops bugs and the hardware starts to fail, we call these things disease conditions.

Each time the data is copied there can be corruption or failure of the data transfer mechanisms; this seems to most affect mitochondrial DNA. The biochemical machine will repair a bad data copy using a good copy when the genetic hash value is wrong. The number of times that the data can be replicated in technically in theory is to infinity.

However there is a design constraint on the human biochemical machine which is probably mathematical in nature and an inherent system limitation resulting from the engineering requirements needed for the system to work. The chromosomes have a limited number of telomeres available limiting the number of replications. Telomeres are like book ends which keep books together. The telomeres keep the chromosomes together. Every time it is replicated, child cell produced, a new data copy is made, and a new set of book ends is used the first cell starts with a limited number so the number of cell generations is limited. When the book ends runs out that cell line ceases to exist.

There are biochemical mechanisms to add on telomeres, however the genetic switch or functional capability to allow these mechanisms to be applied to all cell lines near the end of their duration, allowing them to continue for an infinite duration (Eternity), does not seem to be set to ON in the human species and may be related to the ability to produce vitamin C being turned off. In fact this one genetic switch that was turned off thousands of years ago could be part of the immortality factors. However what we find in the phenomena of cancer seems to be a failed immune or immortality response.

Also worth noting is that intelligent stem cells can assume data, properties and functions of other cells groups in effect allowing data persistence and renewal of cell lines.

If the gene to create the enzyme to manufacture vitamin C is turned off there is a way to emulate it being turned on by consuming the amounts of Vitamin C that would have been generated to support or enhance the biochemical systems.

If we could mange adding telomeres back in the right places, and or slow down replication cycles caused by the need for repairs, maintain neural integrity (improved cellular waste removal), prevent mitochondrial DNA damage, and or utilize the advanced intelligence of stem cells for replacement and persistence, we would have at least life spans approaching 1,000 years if not 10,000.

Our progeny is the production of a bug free virgin data set it is our own biochemical machine replicating itself. It can also be considered an upgrade because both the female and male genes combine producing a hybrid data set that contains the best features of both that were developed during their life spans genetic modifications. This would also include real time inheritance of species wide broadcasted genetic upgrades. So in a sense the original data set lives on and is contained in the future generations or replications of the body machine and the original data set could live eternally but it would not be exactly the same because it would be an evolved data set.

Short life spans speed evolution. So the turning off of the gene to produce vitamin C may have an evolutionary benefit based on the level of consciousness of a civilization. Short life spans are necessary for the rapid evolution of consciousness. The reason it benefits evolution at certain phases of evolution of say humanoids is that so called beliefs (knowledge, expectations, and or fictions) evolve faster. Each generation refines the beliefs based on new discovery so the more generations within a given time duration the greater the degree of evolution during that time period. In other words a society with longer life spans would tend to preserve a belief set for a longer period and may allow older beliefs sets to dominate longer. It would be more accurate to say thought patterns and behavioral traits.

At the point that belief systems were allowed to freely evolve and change rapidly (NOW) then it would serve the organism or civilization to live with longer life spans allowing for a greater knowledge base to be obtained. In fact at a certain point short life spans would inhibit evolution because of the amount of data and intelligence required to be absorbed before being able to evolve technology and adaptability for the species to the environment. We are reaching the threshold where the common brain impaired by malnutrition will not be able to comprehend the system enough to operate it, enhance or modify it due to complexity.

Continued

Therefore as might guess thanks to cognitive enhancers some have, including myself have figured out the biochemical mechanisms for persistent data replication and device replacement, in other words immortality. At least there are temporary real measures to applied now to extend the life span enough until the knowledge and understanding to fully enable immortality, eternal data persistence occurs. Of course there is the other crucial piece to this that is not well understood either. Without this other piece the data set has no meaning. That is the life force, or animating factor, in conjunction with the observer / being /awareness. It could very well be that when the attention of this awareness on a particular cause and effect chain (soul) is diverted the cause and effect chain terminates and is known as death of your body and character or role.

Now one might expect that if good reason existed for awareness to continue the propagation of a cause and effect chain by placing it’s attention on it then it would do so.

Perhaps part of the secret lies in creating a reason for being to experience your persistence crucial to this would be the ability to continually evolve. When the finite being stops evolving it then dies.

I would go on to say that many humans upon reaching a certain age stopped evolving their minds and then die. This could be changing though where some seek to continue to evolve their minds and therefore continue living.

So in summary of one can replicate a data set for eternity then immortality is achieved.

If you are interested in learning to apply some of these techniques for immortality now click my name below and start reading.

Avtar,

It seems you are arguing the goal is to die and enter blissful oblivion for eternity.

The case against fading into blissful oblivion.

Yet I think the evidence against that it is quite obvious. To the One Being reading and writing this now. If the one being wanted to be in a state of blissful oblivion it would be. But it is not it is reading these words right now as a part of it’s experience.

Problem with being in blissful oblivion for eternity is that one would grow numb and there would be no contrast so the feeling would cease to exist having no contrast. So at that point the One Being would need to find contrast, and plunge into duality perhaps born into a war zone or famine would be quite a contrast. In other words a life experience as a finite being would provide contrast that would make the bliss all that much greater.

It would seem based on direct experience and observation that THE ONE BEING values experience much more than some empty void of bliss. Look around you. The one being is experiencing a plethora of phenomena from a multitude of points of view. That must be what it likes doing!

That would be no different from using heroin 24 hours a day, could you imagine a life like that? Why is it that we just don’t sit around stoned on opiates all day if that is the goal? What purpose does it serve?

In fact the best scenario might be periodic tastes of the blissful oblivion such as that obtained through sex and procreation. This would provide a regular cycle of contrast, creating the wave function, the fluctuation between infinite and finite being. So we get periodic tastes of the eternal bliss of oblivion through sex and stimulation of the nerve endings and a fantastic experience in a material realm with limits and boundaries which is quite a treat for the omnipotent being.

Really there is no need to die physically to obtain this bliss; it can be obtained in any moment without giving up your finite existence. In fact you probably do it every night in deep delta sleep. One simply needs to realize they are the Infinite Being both noun and verb.

That one does not already have access to blissful oblivion is probably the common illusion.

The question is does time stop when we are not consciousness or does time stopping make us not consciousness??

“We must live by the clock in our everyday world, but must never forget that the everyday transient world is merely temporal waves on the surface of the vast ocean of the deeper universal reality that is eternal and beyond time and space. Once the deeper and eternal universal reality is realized, the temporal worldly realities appear to be relatively miniscule and insignificant passing-by illusions, no matter how much significance the worldly masses may afford to them.”

Dear Avtar,

For people who have experienced being out of their body and came “back” with this experience(near death experiences), space-time did indeed not exist. Some mention that one thought of someone or something, immediately “brought” them to the one or the object thought of.

This is also one of the wisdom quotes of Maharishi: “All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think, we become."

This is also what Deepak means with the bodymind and what is meant with the “Christ” or “Buddha” consciousness.

The intelligence with which my body functions is non-local. Yet I can influence it with my thoughts, both negative and positive because of the fact that I am conscious of this.

In science, at Planck scales the concepts of space-time: point and “mass point”, are not applicable and so Farewell to the Big Bang. This can be read on page 1311 of “The adventure of physics” freely available at: http://www.motionmountain.net :

Some quotes from it: “The universe has never been a point, never had zero age, never had infinite density and never had infinite curvature.”

“In short, since events do not exist, the Big Bang cannot have been an event. There never was an initial singularity or a beginning of the Universe”.

“The Universe has no state; this means also that it has no wave function”.

“Since time and length are not continuous at Planck scale, observables cannot be described by real numbers. The concept of measurement has no significance at Planck scales”

“The unification of general relativity and quantum physics forces the adoption of a non-local description at Planck scales”.

I guess, this is where your “hidden factor” comes in and it has all the potential for this unification. Even Dr. Hagelin (from the Maharishi University) has not come further than “quantum gravity”.

Science and spirituality are at the verge of unification. I hope your equations are recognized very soon.

Regards, Mieke

Dear Avtar, Well said.
Dear Richard, You said it yourself that the data changes all the time, making it a condition of evolution and subject to annihilation. Solar systems like ours die out every second when the life giving sun explodes. That means every year thirty million solar systems comprised of data from countless life forms die out. That should tell us something. When science figures out the true makeup of Black holes, Dark Matter, and Dark energy they will realize that the energy particle that holds the data have a limited life span of their own, and digress to nothing eventually. This is when we will bridge the gap between spirituality and science. What nothing is, is Eternity, but that is something! Energy gives us the universe and time, which is in a constant state of movement. It can not escape from mortality, because it changes and moves (evolves). Anything that does must end due to its inherent character. Pure Space conquers all and our world and the civilization (data) on it will mean absolutely nothing one day. Kurt

Richard, One more thing the sensation of feeling only exists in energy. In Eternity there is no feeling of numbness for there is no movement or forms, which are comprised of energy. Thinking or data do not apply. Answering your last question: Both are true. Consciousness is a product of time while Awareness is a product of Eternity, but when Awareness takes a form it reflects as the witness, which is consciousness. Also with life comes suffering, like you said, and when you realize the bad out weighs the good here is when your ready to embrace oblivion or Eternity. Kurt

Yes, excellent post Avtar, as I so enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Love, Char

We are awake when time stops.

Yep, that flu is going around and everyone is getting it and the pain of that headache is terrible. Hope you feel better Yogi-one.

Love, Char

Hi Yogi-one:

# 2: “…..the last two paragraphs are something I've heard countless eastern mystics and new-thought pioneers say. As we have here, the statements are put forth as assertions only, as unquestionable self-evident truths.”

These are not my assertions, as you characterize it, but the conclusions of the consciousness-integrated scientific model – Holistic Relativity that is validated against the observations of the universe and scientific experimental data. Just like you, six years ago I was skeptic of the so-called assertions and self-evident truths forwarded by countless mystics. Having gone thru a complete scientific verification thru HR during the last six years, I am filled with awe and wonder as to how true these statements are vindicating the laws of the universe.

“….At some point, it does come down to having skill and mastery over functioning inside the limitations of space and time.”

That very skill and mastery led Einstein to conclude that “Time is an Illusion.” His conclusion is no different than the conclusion of any other accomplished master or mystic. This is, again, not an assertion but a statement of experience.

An assertion is only by those who never have experienced or proven it.

The so-called mastery and skill you may be referring to may be just an entangled web of knowledge and information (such as the mainstream science) that is ever diverging and evolving in illusory time with increasing entropy, complexity and chaos leading to an ultimate demise. The ultimate wisdom is in the dissolution of such illusory mastery and skill, and in becoming the simplest egoless state of being one true YOGI.
--------------- -------------------- ------------------------------------

Dear Richard:

#3: “…….my Proof for Immortality. Although it may not be a mathematical proof it could be considered a conceptual proof that math could support…….
…… If we could mange adding telomeres back in the right places, and or slow down replication cycles caused by the need for repairs, maintain neural integrity (improved cellular waste removal), prevent mitochondrial DNA damage, and or utilize the advanced intelligence of stem cells for replacement and persistence, we would have at least life spans approaching 1,000 years if not 10,000. “

Huge ifs ……Your poof seems to appear a dreamful speculation ……. I am not holding my breath until the mortality is proven physically or mathematically. Moreover, since your 10,000 years may only a few seconds or a blink of an eye for another observer in the universe moving a different speed, your so-called immortality has no absoluteness in it. Even 10,000 years must be followed by an ultimate death of the body, hence is not immortality.

The universal laws of entropy and conservations have to be defied entirely for immortality to occur; hence it is impossible. Mortality and time are two internally and mutually inconsistent concepts; hence, impossible to coexist.

#5: “…..It seems you are arguing the goal is to die and enter blissful oblivion for eternity…….The case against fading into blissful oblivion.”

I am not arguing the goal to die for entering blissful oblivion as you appear to interpret.

The consciousness-integrated science reveals that in order to stop increasing entropy, the clock must stop. That means, while living in this body (matter), one must live in the moment by dissolving the ego (not physically dying as you say). Just as a “Reborn Enlightened” being, a living person with dissolved (dead) ego is the only person who truly enjoys the bliss of life since he/she has dissolved the threat and suffering (entropy) of death. A person with a “living” ego can pretend the fun, but is living a life in the “illusory” time marred with increasing entropy. Not only the consciousness-integrated science, but spiritual masters like Jesus, Buddha, Nanak, and others validated these findings by experiences. Only people with ego die, clock can never be beaten but can only be stopped. An egoless person may physically die but not in its awakened and timeless psyche.

--------------- ------------------- ---------------------
Dear Mieke:

#6:
You got it. Thanks.

------------ ----------- ---------------------------- ---------
Dear KAN:
#7 & #8: VERY WELL SAID, I couldn’t have said any better. Thanks.

------------- ------------------------------------- -----------------------------

Regards,
Avtar

What do you guys think about my Swedish brethren filming the electron. Can't discern much in this video though:
http://[DELINKER]www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23336318/

pax vobiscum

Enjoyed the article very much. Thank you Avtar.

There is a different concept of time in different cultures. The Vedic concept of time differs greatly from the one adopted in the western world. I'm sure you know the difference. The western concept of time is a linear progression from whatever is the reference point ( lets say, the big bang ) to the present moment.

The Vedic concept of time is cyclical, it is divided into the Yugas, with the sum total of all the yogas forming one Kalpa. One Kalpa is one day of Brahma ( the creator ). It goes on to the 100 years of Brahma, which is the period of Brahma's existence, meaning the end of the cycle of creation~sustenance-dissolution. Then Brahma is born again, etc. at infinitum.

Yet we know Brahma is only a dream seen by the Vishnu, who is the real player behind the drama, so the whole process of creation~sustenance~dissolution is just a day of Vishnu. Now the life-span of Vishnu is what takes for Shiva to blink his third eye.

There is of course similarities with the modern scientific view of the space-time phenomena however, the Vedic view theological in its essence and time - Mahakala is the property of the Lord.

It is notable that time exists in the divine realm in the scriptural tradition of India, the 'Yoga Vashishta' goes in length discussing the time in the realms beyond the bhutas and mahabhutas. Even celestials are subjected to the kalpas and yugas.

Sri Krishna declares in Bhagavad Gita:
'' I am the Time, the great destroyer of the world... ''

In Kashmir Shaiva tradition the vedic concept of Maya ( illusion ) doesn't exist, instead everything is seen as the throb of Shiva and time is the frequency of His rhythmical throbs. As real as Shiva Himself.

This is just another view of what time is, perhaps it is an illusion, yet there could be a surprise and in due time it will turn out to be that the time ( and space ) have a reality of there own which allows the Creator to enter his creation in times when its most needed. Just as He did in Kali Yuga.

I saw over the weekend on TV that scientist have now created these bio-nano (sp?) programmable chips and one is about ~1000 smaller than the size of one strand of hair. They have now created bones in the lab, but they have not used the technology on any living creature yet. The exciting part is that say a 80+ year old person who fractures or brakes a bone, could have these half bio/machine (sounds like that star wars movie) programmed as a bone and it would make bone material to help heal a person's fractured bone within their body, who is too old physically to do this as a younger person can - regeneration of the bone.

Plus, I too think we could live much, much longer, but we would really have to change/grow/develop a lot, especially our mental and emotional states, such as being positive and remaining in a state of love, compassion, and forgiveness as a human race that includes all for a possible example.

Love, Char

When the whining, fearful, planning, analysing, personality-soaked ego veil is rent, then time gives place to duration. I'm wondering if it all depends on which chakra you primarily view the world from.
Since one following a religious practice is continually trying to reach up to the next chakra, such understandings can be glimpsed, even though he sinks back through gravity to his primary chakra.
"The constant stress to sanctify the Nature" is what the Gita calls this religious striving.
So time is really an idea known through the chakras.

Dear Igor,

Hello! Nice to meet you for real.

Thanks for the reminders!

As for myself,

I think Time is as I am.

Sometimes tardy and sometimes dead on!

.

li'l Dakini,

Which foreign language could you teach me,

if you actually had the time to do so?

And...in the by and by...just what

would you wish for me to say?

"I shan't rush the rush!"

Good golly Miss D!!!

A single stress

constantly

crying

me2.

wrong chakra
non responsive
but not rude

"Anything that does must end due to its inherent character. Pure Space conquers all and our world and the civilization (data) on it will mean absolutely nothing one day. Kurt"

Dear Kurt,

Just something I read in this very interesting almost 1500 page long history of physics:

Page 1372:
"Curiosities and fun challenges about limits to observables

Several black hole limits are of importance to the universe itself. For example, the ob-
served average mass density of the universe is not far from the corresponding black hole
limit. The black hole lifetime limit provides an upper limit for the age of the universe.
However, the age of the universe is far from that limit by a large factor. In fact, since the
universe’s size and age are increasing, the age limit is pushed further into the future with
every second that passes.The universe evolves so as to escape its own decay."

Since we are our mind, what a great adventure, could it be possible we might "invent" the Immortality of our Universe in Eternity"? :)

Mieke

P.S. this free 1500 pages ebook can be read on
http://www.motionmountain.net

I just found your blog post and found it quite interesting.

If you are serious about this subject, then you will be quite interested in my research and findings on this very topic.

I have summarized what I have found on my main blog: http://www.Ben-Abba.com .

Check out the post “Summary of the Facts” when you get a chance and then my follow up book “Secrets of an Immortal - An Eyewitness Account of 2,800 Years of History”.

Blessings!

Melchizedek is his name :-) ... a high priest for ever and ever.

Nice to meet you too Keith !

I agree, everything is - as I am.
So is the Time, so it the Space,
so is every phenomena in the Universe.

There is only '' I am'' - the ultimate Witness.

Aham Brahmasmi - I am Totality

Well if it's not Melchizedek .... that guy you are talking ,then maybe the person you found is a prophet and can go to all those places and times, so he knows.

Anyway, I'm doing a web search on Melchizedek and there's some really interesting stuff out there. Here's some ....

"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. "Hebrews 7:3 KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?
quicksearch=Melchizedek+&qs_version=15

Genesis 14:18-20

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [a] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [b] of heaven and earth.

20 And blessed be [c] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

I don't know, but I think this Melchizedek person is pretty interesting and he is not even of the Jews and Bible says ....

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”[a]

6 As He also says in another place:

“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;[b]

One more and then I'm done...

Jesus Like Melchizedek

11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,

16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:

"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."[a]

Here's the bookmark for #24

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search
=Hebrews%207:1-17

Why did God create time?

To keep everything from happening all at once.

Very kool God…….