Gotham,

Do drugs and other addictions lift one into clear sight and action do they keep one in a fog?
Do drugs and other addictions lift one into expanded creativity of non-local mind? Or do they keep one trapped in ego fantasy with lower chakra sensations and dramas?

We are limited in experience and creativity when we are limited in left brain. As we venture increasingly into right brain territory we'll discover a whole new creative field of magic carpet rides.

Trish~~

I am free associating here...

It is popularly perceived that the math genius Ramanujan couldn't have done his extraordinary work, had he NOT faced hardships in his personal and social life. A new critically acclaimed Ramanujan biography "The Man Who Knew Infinity" reveals more about the complexity of the circumstances and the beautiful mind of this man, by reading which I have come to understanding the fallacy that hardships lead to insight, at least in his case. The injustices and hardships in colonial India and later at Oxford, and his childhood and family turmoil, had in fact blunted some of the more extraordinary promise he had in store. After almost a century of his work, mathematicians still try to understand him, his mind and his gift to the world of numbers.

Ramanujan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

Hey
I think you may be right ..tho i find it difficult to think that all great men (and why only men?) have used drugs or whatever to ignite their thinking..and they all have secret lives..Sounds spooky. What about you dad?

And Gandhiji? I need a crash course in history.
Deepti

Madonna - one of the more recent artists included in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame - wasn't on drugs when she made Like a Virgin, Material Girl, Express Yourself, etc. and all her other hits. Or was she?

Perhaps Gotham if there were no judgment, there would be no need for secret lives, or even lies for that matter. If there were no judgment there would be no fear. If there was no fear there would be no "bad" irrational behavior. It would simply be harmonious if there were no judgment.

It is true you are the only one that knows every moment of your own life, you live it alone.

Alone
Al one
All one.
There is a cup and a thong that has this conversation piece on it if you click my name.

Sigmund Fraud once described an addiction as “an important group of “unconscious” associations or strong unconscious impulses lying behind an individual’s otherwise mysterious behavior.” As humans (especially men) we weren’t biologically created to suppress those natural inner urges or impulses, but we do because we have learned that they are morally wrong and/or acceptable... thus resulting in the secret lives known only to ourselves.

Woman struggle with these same unconscious impulses as well… her struggles to hide what society has deemed abnormal as normal, has become a hidden conscious struggle within. What has resulted is her in-ability to accept and embrace those impulses as natural occurrences or shifts within her inner core. Until a woman sheds her feminist idealistic morals (set by a traditional feminist society) and embrace her true inner selves, this struggle will remain dominant within her inner core.

Harm None and Do As Thy Will

It is only society that has created the expectancy of what is and what is not proper for one to do.

Do as you wish, as an artist I can attribute much of my inspiration to drugs that help me perceive life in a manner more akin to spirit and serve as a paradoxical discipline and vice all at once

Great Post!

I don't think pain is necessary for great creativity to happen. I think we are so used to express our pain in all possible ways, so creative people do often cry out their torment in music, writing, etc. Drugs and the rest are to me just a non-working way to escape the pain and reach that unnamed state of bliss we all seek. And sure, the struggle with our shadows can very well create pieces that resonate with many.

But creativity is not conditioned by pain, it is just often filtered through pain. The sun doesn't shine because of the clouds that often cover it, and doesn't need to fight the clouds to shine. When you have dealt with your shadows, creativity will express itself unfiltered.

Two thoughts:
You'll find, as you get older, your 3 selves kind of meld together into the person you're most comfortable being. Your attitude will be, "Accept me as I am, or don't. Just gotta be me."
Maybe highly creative people are more prone to risk-taking, because they have a bigger life perspective than most others?
Taking drugs would just be one aspect of their willingness to take risks.

What about Peter Gabriel (musical genius)? He has made some truly great albums.
In general, I think that music is a fuzzy area--as oftentimes it is the "lifestyle" that exposes these guys to so much drugs rather than NECESSARILY internal torment. Think Aerosmith, who are now clean and sober, and from what I know I don't believe Steven Tyler ever claimed that internal torment drove him to drugs rather the rock lifestyle.
With the Stones--image played a huge factor in their drug use. The Stones wanted to portray a hard-livin' hard-partyin' rock band--they needed drugs to do that. We will never know if they could have created the same music without drugs.
A lot of the bands you mentioned--Doors, Pink Floyd--the drug/alcohol use in some ways really started to affect their music negatively. Jim Morrisson sounds at his worst when the alcoholism had gotten totally our of hand. Pink Floyd's more acid-inspired albums are, in my opinion, their worst--not that they can be called "bad" but musically their "acid jams" were not some of their best work. Syd Barrett was a musical genius (before drugs) who developed schizophrenia, and eventually was unable to produce music.
Nirvana and INXS did have some great albums. Certainly Kurt Cobain and Michael Hutchence had some inner demons--you can hear that in Nirvana's sound, but in INXS' sound--I don't hear those demons so that is worth noting whether the music could have been created without the demons.
Eminem--I really do not feel his music is drug-inspired.
Snoop--well, yes....
What about someone like Ray Charles--for whom the drugs I believe were always a negative factor--his genius always shone much brighter without the drugs--Ray Charles quit heroine for that reason--I actually saw the man perform when he was probably 75 years old and he was amazing.
Just some thoughts....

I agree totally with Aurora. It is a myth that all geniuses need to be tortured souls inebriated with intoxicants. It is a particularly western myth. It is a form of permissive license to individuals to indulge themselves silly while fancying themselves to be tortured and gifted. All the musical geniuses you mention just couldn't handle their success, which was far in excess of their worth anyway.We have this unfortunate tendency to heap adulation on people prematurely. Prime example- footballers in England.

You also left me mystified with your reference to Gandhi. Is there something I missed in his autobiography or his numerous biographies?

You are right in saying that people do seem to have secret lives more and more now. I think it is because there is so much pressure to appear perfect. Whatever is not perfect gets shoved out of public and even private awareness. So Richard is right in saying that if there was no judgement there would be no secret life.

Hello Gotham and Everyone,

Interesting questions.

As a creator do people aspire to comlicate their own life?....I think most people's lives are complicated and the degree depends on lots of contributing factors and maybe because of those complications people will do things to "lessen" the stress buildup that comes with having complications whether they are feelings, relationships or living condidtions, maybe folks want to try a drug, a different sex partner, a different sexual environment, or maybe frequent different night spots for excitement and the addictions come later. Maybe some very creative individuals then attach their creativity juices to the behavior and believe they can't have one without the other.

I do think there are those who indulge thinking it sparks the creative fires but for most I think the above is truer.

For the Beatles, during the 60's and 70's, it seemed that the times actually "needed" drugs such as LSD to bring forth the birthing of an emotional, mental and spiritual questioning, reflecting and sharing on the mass scale that it did for young people at that time. Really, would the 60's and 70's have had such an impact on our culture if it were not for the drugs? Most all youth at the time experimented with LSD.

starting to get lost with this..better end it...have a great day all...ruth

“But creativity is not conditioned by pain, it is just often filtered through pain. The sun doesn't shine because of the clouds that often cover it, and doesn't need to fight the clouds to shine. When you have dealt with your shadows, creativity will express itself unfiltered.” - Aurora

You said it and so it is :)

“You'll find, as you get older, your 3 selves kind of meld together into the person you're most comfortable being. Your attitude will be, "Accept me as I am, or don't. Just gotta be me." – psy

All good things in three :)
And because of fact that the so-called “I” accepts itself as it is, it accepts everything around itself in the same way.

No drugs have to be involved. The more one is able to reside in oneself (meditation for instance achieves this) the more inspired and creative one becomes. And this is in itself beneficial for everything, because it is radiated into the collective consciousness just like that. And then it is, like Aurora says in another thread:

“The miracle we need is to help more brains/minds/people to perceive their true identity. And I see that consciousness is speeding up the process enormously, it seems that everyone, everywhere, both mystics and scientists, the media and people on the streets are talking "higher consciousness" :) So let's keep up the vibes and do whatever we're inspired to do to help this awakening ... it's working."

We do not have to do anything than keep up the vibes and radiate them across (the Universe) :)

Jai Guru Deva

Mieke

Pain is the result of killing your small "I" so as to be given the Big "I" or "I" of God and creative abilities thereof. A drop must suffer in order to realize that it is the sea and then to sea the things from the perspective of the sea...

Drugs are only local solutions or rather non-local solutions but of a very small space, and so is really those people's creativity; None of them can achieve the heights of a Buddha or a LaoTze.

So long as there is a sense of separateness, howsoever small, there will be a secret life.

It is great "swimming" in that sea Harb, :)

"None of them can achieve the heights of a Buddha or a LaoTze." - Harb #14

Well that is true and we have a saying in our Dutch language for this:

"Je hebt altijd Baas boven Baas"

It is difficult to translate this into English and for it to keep the same meaning but it means something like:

There is always a Boss over a Boss :)

And of those Bosses there are only a few.

Love, Mieke

Personally, I think a "secret life" is another word for that part of us that is so very private to which another cannot enter, whether we choose to share it or not with another. I think everyone has a secret place within and it's sacred. Once this part of us is shared, then it is no longer secret and I think loses it allure.

We all know that if we are planning something grand, many times we cannot share it with anyone, especially those who would try and stop the creation, as we never know who would really support us or hinder us. It's not worth the time wasted, nor loss energy. So we let it develop and grow within us first. It's like one needs to remain absolutely focused and positive on their desire, until it is strong enough to release.

Now on the drug part ... I think when the mind is closed, drugs can and do open the mind to creativity. However, it is a high price to pay, but if one must create and this is the only way, do they really have a choice? I don't think drugs are necessary and if one spent time on meditation and prayer, they could most likely open themselves up enough to allow the flow from Source so that they could receive this powerful energy without drugs. Drugs are just a way to get around the hard part of opening one's self up to God's creative force (so-to-speak).

Secrets are kind of like shadows too ....

Love, Char

A secret is the play of light with itself.

We all have our secret lives, true. But not sure if we necessarily indulge in it to spark creativity. I imagine our personalities to be more complicated than that. If I lie to my wife and smoke after dinner during my helpful evening walk, it is just a failure to realize the benefits of not smoking. It applies to other facets as well. To live with opposite values is exciting and intimate but mostly it might arise due to an inability to let go of our unauthentic self.

Creativity - just like all good and bad things exists everywhere, and ultimately is the choice of creator to either paint it with shadow or light.

Gotham:

A friend of mine shared an idea with me about 4 years ago.

He said to me, "People are like balls, they are round".

I asked him what he meant.

To paraphrase and ramble a bit:

I, we, each and everyone of us "believes" that we show a different face (public, private or secret) to different people/groups depending on the situation/relationship.

The truth is we ARE like balls. We look the same no matter what side we show people and we are the only ones that believe we are looking different.

2 things I have learned.

1. There are no secrets.

2. People are much smarter and are perceptive of the sutler non localized (ie verbalized) communications then I had given us credit for being. And one doesn't need to think or feel or believe that they are clairvoyant in order to read the ball.

That should read non localized (ie non verbalized)

Drugs are like fast food for the spiritual seeker. They create true feelings, visions, awareness - but only for a tantilizingly brief period. Meditation and prayer, (along with service, gratitude and expression of love towards everything, and recognition of the divine presence in everything) are more like gourmet vegan - a little more work to prepare, but ultimately WAY more fulfilling, tastier and longer lasting...even everlasting.

The best music of all is the symphony of life - when you recognize that you are co-orchestrating the magical tune that becomes your existence and is entirely overwhelming. This song can literally blow your mind. The Stones are OK...don't get me wrong. But unity experience achieved through divine grace and proper potentiality positioning...THAT is the most genius music of all.

Hi Laurence,
It is nice to see you again - are you enjoying fatherhood times 2.

Some secrets seem to go undiscovered - gone to the grave, so to speak.

Interesting about comparing people to balls - I like tennis and ping-pong balls especially. Both change their looks the longer they are played :)

As far as human faces .... though the outer seems to look the same to everyone's view - it's not applicable to the 'inner' face.

And in 'time' both our faces and inner life go through many cycles of changes. This is no secret for sure.
love from
~ Kate

Hi Brian,
I really like what you say here:
"The best music of all is the symphony of life - when you recognize that you are co-orchestrating the magical tune that becomes your existence and is entirely overwhelming. This song can literally blow your mind".

yeah!

Hi Gotham, An excellent written piece...Re: Madonna...do you think in her single days..she had some sort of thing about being...."exposed" as we say. She showed a lot of skin and was very vampy back then in what she did and how she performed...just a thought...

I agree with all you said and lips are sealed and it would not be a secret if they told..so it leaves everyone up to theur own imaginations...joanie

Secret Gardens. What do they hold?

When a child ego maybe something stolen and hidden away?

When a teenage ego maybe alcohol or drugs.

When a wife or husband ego maybe an affair.

When a spiritual seeker of light maybe an angel?

When a spiritual child of truth maybe a Garden where there are no secrets.

Trish~~

Actually, I think it is about exploration, curiosity, and the desire to experience things for oneself - as opposed to simply believing the social conditioning that you are being fed.

Taboo-breaking has always had the element of experimentation and exploration. What happens when I do such and such - will it change me - what feelings will it create?

The artists you mention, and others were looking for ways to break limits, to create new definitions, or simply bust out of old definitions about themselves, and their art.

Sometimes doing drugs or sexual escapades is part of that exploration, but I don't think it's the end goal.

A agree that some drugs - particularly the psychedelics - can open doors, but they cannot carry you through the doors . You can get glimpses of timeless experience, but as long as you are depending on the drug to provide it, the experience will be incomplete, temporary, and the drugs themselves will distort the experience.

Drug use has been present for many musicians, but it has not been at the center.

And musicians, like the general populace, - have different reasons for drug use. Some to escape pain, and disconnect themselves from their lives.

The most interesting ones, to me, were the ones for whom drugs were just a stage of exploration. I will choose the early acid-inspired Pink Floyd over the later stuff. I like the Beatles the most during their psychedelic phase also.

Sure, maybe the later stuff has more focus and polish. But for me, the excitement comes from the sense of busting out the limits, making music that has never been played before, never been heard before, and defies the traditional categories we try to divide creativity into.

Gotham says "as a creator, do you aspire to complicate your own life? Do you intentionally indulge where you shouldn't to create emotional and spiritual havoc just to spark that fire of creativity?"

I think you are totally confused... The very spark of creativity forces you to cross the boundaries of Good and Evil. Lets meditate on the word "Create". Authentic creativity is a "Disturbance" to the defacto nature. By definition authentic creativity is "Challenging the norms of society". But before you do that you will always experiment to the so called "evils" which are an outcast by the society. 'Cos that's the stepping stone towards your final goal.. Which is "Authentic Creativity"

So grow up, if you have the desire to have lust for sex and you are married "THEN GO AHEAD" YOU HAVE TO EXPERIMENT NO MATTER WHATEVER THE CONSEQUENCES. 'Cos by even having the desire to have SEX outside the society's norm, you are already dreaming about the first step of "Rebellion"

I wonder what would be the feeling by Brad Pitt when he left Society popular Jennifer Anisten for a Bad/Girl Angelina Jolie. May be he walked the fisrt steps to fullfill his desire how about U Gotham?

Is your father's glory holding back your "Creative Impulse"?

Do U want to fulfill you wild desires but are afraid of your Dad's / Sister's or wife's (assuming you R married) expectations? If not then why these questions especially after a bacholer party?

Greatness requires a certain disregard for risk - if you play it safe, if you only do what is acceptable, if you don't do things because people will think you're crazy, then there is little or no room for greatness.

I don't think that the vices are a cause of the greatness. Instead, they are a consequence of a greater willingness to take risks. That willingness contributes to both the greatness and the indulgence.

I don't think creative people consciously choose to complicate their lives. I think their sense of adventure and their egos compel them to risk more than the average person.

And whenever you take a risk, you're in new, strange territory. In the new places you're having more fun and your imagination gets a kick in the rear as the mind's normal way of thinking and experiencing is forced into rewiring itself. Creativity ensues, if that's how you chose to channel these experiences.

Also, when you're taking a risk or doing something naughty or taboo, you feel more alive, I think.

And yes, as a man, I have a third life, and although people may guess at how strange and perverse it may be, they do not know to what degree. It could be worse, it could be much tamer. Only the secret me knows.

"Think about it: the most brilliant art or insight often comes from the most tortured souls. Even, great leadership - from Gandhi to MLK to JFK to some of our most modern power brokers - Clinton to Spitzer - involves men with checkered and illicit relationships that they should otherwise "known better" than to get involved in."

And Gandhiji? I need a crash course in history.
Deepti

3. Posted by deepsadv

You also left me mystified with your reference to Gandhi. Is there something I missed in his autobiography or his numerous biographies?

12. Posted by Neetu

********************

Neetu, perhaps you missed reading well known events from his "auto"biography; My
Experiments with Truth, in which Gandhiji experimented to test his will of sexual abstinence by sleeping naked with his two young nieces. The results? He confesses to failing the test. Gotham apparently is talking about the weird "relationship" based on "sex" with his nieces. Whether he had sex with them is open for interpretation.

Gandhiji apart from his political philosophy and universal spiritual beliefs had many antique interpretations of Hindu religion. These are well documented in many biographies which focus on his personal life and beliefs.

Talking about great thinkers and achievers we can add Jiddu Krishnamurti to that list. He had a relationship with his managers wife, and went to elaborate lengths to cover it up.

Does a secret life include watching porn-while drinking beer and eating pizza? :-)

Seriously, I think everyone has aspects of their personality which is theirs and theirs alone. We all have our idiosyncratic facets which the world doesn't see. As they say, no-one really knows the real you except yourself-and sometimes its better to keep it that way.