Rahul:

It is sad that someone had to pay for things one had not done!

On another note, I believe it is time to throw out each and every thing that is associated with Communists from India.. specially the two parties.. they should be sent on a cruise to Arctic and thrown overboard. Honestly, it is difficult to even control my anger when I discuss the Communists in India.. they have systematically raped, empoverished and intellectually bankrupted the country beyond words! To know that the top guys like Jyoti Basu and Harkishan Singh Surjeet were once arrested because they sided with the Chinese while our own soldiers were dying on the border in a war started by the Chinese.. .and that they are STILL there at the helm is shameful for me!!

Read here to know more:

http://drishtikone.com/?q=blog/how-indian-committed-committed-acts-treason-against-indian-state-and-why-they-should-be-banned-

Cheers,
Desh

Rahul, I found a Wiki page for Naxalites here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite

The map was helpful in showing how widespread the phenomenon is, but there's nothing to say why this is such a hot issue for India. I can feel the tension about it in your report. Desh's anger is clearly stated, and even some reasons why he's angry.

But there also seems to be a much more significant piece of this picture that's not being conveyed. Why are these parties seen as such a heavy danger in India, to India?

I can can understand this young woman's distress at her father's arrest. But is the point of your report that sometimes people are tarred with the Naxalite label and imprisoned unjustly and illegally, or is it that sometimes people are found to be part of this movement only when they're arrested?

Rahul,

Glad to see you back again and hope to see you even oftener.

I am really in torn between two conflicting emotions here. One is sympathy for the young lady regardless of whether the charges against her father are true or not.

If the cops have indeed made a scapegoat of this man, I am not surprised. This is the state we have reached and have ourselves to blame. There is no check on anything that representatives of the state wish to do. The system abets murder, loot and vendetta if you have the authority, you will get away with it as a matter of right. That being said, I do know that there are people in the naxal movement who are extremely well read and pass off as genuine social workers but deep down there is a Jeckyll and Hyde syndrome too. I have heard on national TV where students from the JNU have openly proclaimed they belong to a group that believes only violence works and that they advocate it. These things are a dillema for most of us.

Desh,

If you need two arms and two legs to row these guys as deep into the ocean as possible, you have a very willing volunteer.

Regards to you both,
Dara

Rahul, thanks.

One group taking such inhumane advantage of another group is parallel to slavery and Amerind genocide in the US's past (which persist as racial and cultural discrimination, though not as openly). I wonder why this doesn't get more attention outside Asia. I'd never encountered the term Naxalite until I read some of your reporting. I overlooked most of its implications for a long time, as just one more confusing bit of politics. I still don't have a full grasp of the situation's power and range, and the possibilities that could roll out it, but your explanations, and Desh's and Dara's comments, have helped a lot.

Aloha Rahul

To have a parent incarnated is very frightening and demoralizing. They have already raped their minds. What is a body? I will pray for your friend. They will soar miracles of a Love that is inclusive. love patty

dear Rahul,
Thank you for this story of Shikha and her father.
Will you write again to let us know what happens?
love,
~ Kate

(I wish she could send sweets to her father...)

Rahul:

Thanks for your comments.. :-) A few remarks:

1. "India" and "Bharat" are NOT mutually exclusive or anti each other. Growth in India should and has to get to Bharat. It has not but it should. In the same vein, if it hasn't yet gotten to the villages and the poor does NOT mean that its not there! There is a reason to be concerned about the poverty and the continued apathy of the ruling class to those poor; but negating what the hard working middle class has in the cities (and small towns) is also useless!

So, lets keep our perspective balanced on that.

2. I can understand the need that naxalites serve for the poor.. but honestly, any educated person.. and one who can even think for himself and his family and the country .. will think TWICE before he would back a bunch of thugs in the name of terrorists!

And if there are people in the Indian press who are not only sympathizing with those who OPENLY try to unlawfully spread violence and destroy public property - AND work clandestinely with outsiders to spread fear; and still expect that one should view it as a "democratic right".. then I am sorry... I am NOT on the same page.

I have no problem with people having the freedom to side with whoever they want to .. but looking at history and how it goes around.. if you want LAW to work in the land. .then the LAST thing you ought to do is ensure LAW of the land is followed! If in any way you give the impression or are involved with organizations and ideologies that encourage looting, kidnapping, killing and murder openly.. then you lose the moral ground right there!

3. I have a VERY low opinion of an educated person who says that the only way to contribute to alleviation of poverty "left" to him was VIOLENCE and murder and looting or helping such a "revolution"! It is such a BIG slap on people like Baba Amtes and Mother Teresa and the many NGOs which are working silently despite all the problems.

Revolution is not about unlawful activities but about hard work and perseverence. You cannot get freedom by taking away others!

To me there is NO - ABSOLUTELY NO - difference between the Maoists and Lashkar-e-Toiba.. and also NO difference between SIMI and the Indian sympathizers of Maoists and the Indian communists themselves.

Every adult has a chance to make sensible judgments.. at least on that front this guy at least was a criminal in my eyes.

Sorry, buddy, on this one I am not with you and sorry also because this topic makes me very angry at how some stupid emotions supersede the welfare (ACTUAL WELFARE) of people.

Cheers,
Desh

My comments above were sooo badly written that I am writing them again! :-)

1. "India" and "Bharat" are NOT mutually exclusive or anti each other. Growth in India should and has to get to Bharat. It has not but it should. In the same vein, if it hasn't yet gotten to the villages and the poor does NOT mean that any good has not happened in the economy! There is a reason to be concerned about the poverty and the continued apathy of the ruling class to those poor; but negating what the hard working middle class has created and achieved in the cities (and small towns) is also not helpful!

So, lets keep our perspective balanced on that.

2. I can understand the need that naxalites serve for the poor,.. but honestly, any educated person.. and one who can even think for himself and his family and the country .. will think TWICE before he would back a bunch of thugs in the name of "revolution"! I DONT want such a revolution.

And if there are people in the Indian press who are not only sympathizing with those who OPENLY try to unlawfully spread violence and destroy public property - AND work clandestinely with outsiders to spread fear; and still expect that one should view it as a "democratic right".. then I am sorry... I am NOT on the same page with that sentiment.

I have no problem with people having the freedom to side with whoever they want to .. but looking at history and how it goes around.. if you want LAW to work in the land. .then the FIRST thing you ought to do is ensure LAW of the land is followed!

If in any way you give the impression or are involved with organizations and ideologies that encourage looting, kidnapping, killing and murder openly.. then you lose the moral ground right there!

3. I have a VERY low opinion of an educated person who says that the only way to contribute to alleviation of poverty "left" to him was VIOLENCE and murder and looting or helping such a "revolution"! It is such a BIG slap on people like Baba Amtes and Mother Teresa and the many NGOs which are working silently despite all the problems.

Revolution is not about unlawful activities but about hard work and perseverence. You cannot get freedom by taking away others!

To me there is NO - ABSOLUTELY NO - difference between the Maoists and Lashkar-e-Toiba.. and also NO difference between SIMI and the Indian sympathizers of Maoists and the Indian communists themselves.

Every adult has a chance to make sensible judgments.. at least on that front this guy at least was a criminal in my eyes.

Sorry, buddy, on this one I am not with you and sorry also because this topic makes me very angry at how some stupid emotions supersede the welfare (ACTUAL WELFARE) of people.

Cheers,
Desh

Dear Rahul,

It is good to know that you are not deceived or do not want to deceive others. Here is an excerpt from an articel I read somewhere and can't remember the source.

"India is an emerging superpower and the economy is growing at 8-9 percent. India also has a politically stable government. Yet the country ranks badly on HDI (Human Development Index). Its rank is 128 out of 175 (countries). The list of countries by rankings you can get here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) HDI measures life expectancy, literacy, education, standard of living,and GDP per capita…and as is evident from the map, many countries which are poorer than us are doing better than us.

Some poorer nations fare better than India
An analysis (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2007/12/24/stories/2007122455511000.htm ) by P. Sainath in an article in the Hindu compares India’s HDI to that of some other countries. Here it is briefly:

El Salvador is ranked 103, despite going through a decade long civil war from the eighties.
Bolivia is ranked 117 although it is called South America’s poorest nation. It is 11 ranks above India. Guatemala, is ranked 118. This Central American country had a long civil war – almost forty years long! Botswana, in Africa, is ranked 124, ahead of India, despite it being a much poorer country. And it was in a worse position than India last year – at 131. Its improved on its HDI, but India hasn’t. The Occupied Palestinian Territories are ranked 106. This area is politically disturbed, but it still beats India in HDI! Vietnam is ranked 105, and this Asian country has had a history of long conflicts. But it is constantly improving on its HDI. Sri Lanka is ranked 99! Kazakhstan and Mongolia, countries that one associates with low levels of development are increasing their HDI…while Kazakhstan rose five ranks to 73, Mongolia rose two ranks to 114, and both countries are ahead of India.

What this tells us is that if it wasn’t for our higher GDP we would be worse off. What a shame. And we aren’t improving either. At least not in our HDI, despite GDP growth"

Dear Mr.Dara,

I would like you to imagine yourself in the shoes of those who eat once in a three days, before you 'row these guys deep in to the sea'.

Recently, I came to know of one incident, happened in North India, in which a journalist encouraged a low caste family to send their children to school. After much coercion, they agreed to it. When the journalist returned after some time, he found the entire family dead. Of course in police records it is just a suicide but the truth is that the entire family was burned to death for sending the children to school by their so called masters, rather than working in their house or fields.

Though surely I do not suggest violence as a means, I am not sure, if I am a relative of that family, I will stick to peaceful methods of protection. (whose peace anyway?, I wonder)What would you do, Dara?

I would like to add a bit more: It is not that we do not want to celebrate the prosperity of the middle class in India.

But in Dr Binayak Sen's words: "For the past several years, we are seeing all over India - and as part of that in the state of Chhattisgarh as well - a concerted programme to expropriate from the poorest people in the Indian nation, their access to essentials, common property resources and to natural resources including land and water... The campaign called the Salwa Judoom in Chhattisgarh is a part of this process in which hundreds of villages have been denuded of the people living in them and hundreds of people - men and women - have been killed."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binayak_Sen)

Who is Dr.Binayak Sen? Why does he say so?

"It has been more than ten days that Dr Binayak Sen, a paediatrician by training and profession and a human rights activist by choice has received a new identity. - A menace to public safety - The Chattisgarh police whose own record of human rights violations would shame even the KPS Gills, has used the provisions of the draconian Public Safety Act and Unlawful Activities Prevention Act ( a substitute for POTA ) to detain Dr Binayak Sen in the wee hours of 14 th May.

Question naturally arises how does a graduate from the prestigious Christian Medical College, Vellore who has been associated with several community health programmes for the last three decades, who even contributed to the state government's conceptualisation of community health programme 'Mitanin' and who played a significant role in the evolution of 'Shaheed Hospital' - a hospital started by workers for the workers under the leadership of legendary Shankar Guha Niyogi, has suddenly metamorphosed into a menace to public safety ?

One can comprehend this 'transformation' only if one takes a look at the other aspect of Dr Sen's work which he has consistently been doing for quite sometime. Close watchers of Chhatisgarh's deteriorating human rights situation would tell you that apart from his work of curing the physical health of the rural poor in general and kids in particular, he has been actively associated with bettering the social health of the downtrodden and the marginalised as a human rights activist.It is not for nothing that presently he is the General Secretary of PUCL ( People's Union for Civil Liberties), Chhatisgarh region and Vice President of the organisation at the national level.

An idea of the challenging work which he alongwith his other comrades are engaged in could be had from the 'encounter killings' of twelve tribals at Santoshpur which recently made headlines at the national level. (March 31, 2007) In this particular case security personnel marched into the hamletts of tribals, in 'Naxal afftected' Bastar area of Chhattisgarh, abused the villagers alleging that they were naxalite sympathisers and took away some of them. By the evening news came that twelve such people were killed by these security personnel after brutal torture. A few of them were just hacked to death.

Madiyam Soni, a tribal woman, from Ponjer, who lost her own son in the genocide, and who alongwith other villagers have left her village the same night, narrated her experience to a correspondent ( Express, 20 th May 2007) Narrating her experience she shared with the reporter that these tribals are so scared that they have not even registered a complaint at the police station. She rightly asks "How can we hope to approach the police when some of their own have committed the crime"?

It need be emphasised here that the rest of the world could get to know of the state engineered Santoshpur killings only through the painstaking work done by Dr Binayak Sen and his close comrades. Apart from Santoshpur killings, Binayak and his other comrades have similarly exposed many such incidents of human rights violation - fake killings, fake arrests. It was only two years back they took initiative in the formation of an All India Committee comprising of human rigths groups active in different parts of the country, to look into the brutalisation of ordinary tribals at the hands of the Police under the 'Salwa Judum' campaign.

Salwa Judum, literally translated 'Peace Festival' , is a campaign taken up by the police to arm the tribals and put them under protected areas. It is no mere coincidence that leading historian Ramchandra Guha, recently filed a petition in the Supreme Court urging its intervention to stop the 'Salwa Judum' campaign.

One can easily imagine the challenges involved in exposing all such cases where the security personnel have been given a free hand to silence the people. But it is remarkable that these people have decided to speak truth to power and are ready to face the consequences. Incidentally while announcing Dr Binayak Sen’s arrest, the senior police officer had the audacity of saying that two of his other colleagues in the human rights movement namely Gautam
Bandhopadhyay, Rashmi Dwivedi would similarly be detained in the near future.

As rightly noted by a campaign group
‘This is not merely an effort to cover up the crimes the State government has committed in the name of suppressing the Maoists. These developments are also part of a much larger agenda, driven by the Chattisgarh government's close links to large corporations and international capital and aimed at ruthlessly suppressing any resistance to the forcible seizure of people's lands and resources.’
The arrest of Dr Binayak Sen under the draconian Unlawful Activities Prevention Act and Chhatisgarh Public Safety Act which can put him in jail for years together supposedly for connected to 'terrorist activity' reminds one of a chapter in French history which is known as the 'Dreyfus Case'

It was early eighteen nineties when this young Jewish military officer called Dreyfus was arrested supposedly for ‘treason' and was sent to St Helena. Captain Dreyfus was caught while he was playing with his young son in the house. The police people had made such a watertight case against the officer that it seemed that everything was lost.

But incidentally the legendary French writer Emile Zola came to know about his case and wrote a series of articles in the newspapers ( titled J’accuse meaning I accuse!) explaining the Jewish officers innocence and the way he was framed by the powers that be. He exposed how the people who have fabricated the case against Dreyfus ‘hated jews’. Suddently the move to release Dreyfus gained such a momentum that within a short time the government was forced to release him.

As far as Dr Binayak Sen is concerned, the ‘never say die’ activist community has spoken up but where are our ‘Emile Zolas’ who can roar ‘J’accuse !’ "

(http://www.countercurrents.org/gatade260507.htm)

Is he freed? Not really http://www.freebinayaksen.org/

Desh, as always in conversations about India, I feel the outsider, unqualified to comment except with great hesitation, and then only sketchily.

But I am good at seeing both sides of any story and pointing out where I see a blind spot. I seem to see one in your opening para. I think (my opinion) that your anger on the subject has led you to infer criticism of India's middle class and influx of money that is simply not present in Rahul's report or subsequent comments. His pointing out that people in some rural areas are not surviving due to insufficiencies of food and medical care, whereas he can go to a Marks and Spencer in Delhi, is not an overall criticism of India's growing economy, it's a illustration taken from real life of the worst aspects of it.

As has been happening in the US for at least two decades, when money changes hands quickly, i.e., a strong economy with consistent cash flow exists, there are many who divert whatever money they can earn to serve their own needs, without thinking of what's happening to their neighbors, especially when their neighbors are for the most part invisible because of living in rural areas. In the US, there has been a growing disparity between those with access to a lot of money, and those without. It has an incredibly inhumane effect on the daily lives of those at the lowest levels of the US economy. Moreover, in the long run, this kind of disparity is a danger to any apparently robust economy, as it ultimately strangles cash flow and creates conditions that end up costing more to fix than they would have cost to prevent. Thus, in the US, there is now a credit and housing market crisis. Those in the lower levels of the economy are being squeezed out of their ability to service their financial obligations. Those in the upper levels who counted on making money from those obligations are now seeing the results of their own flawed principles and actions. Certainly, a few years ago, everyone in the US who were hearing warnings about the stratification of society based on economic differences were saying, hey, the money will trickle down to the lower levels. And it did trickle down -- for long enough that those lower-level families and individuals were able to do their high-interest, under-secured credit borrowing and housing purchases. But as the stratification continued, the reality of the paucity of that trickle became apparent. And unfortunately for all those who pooh-poohed the issue of economic stratification, not only is the US economy being affected, so is the world economy. There is no place to turn, when flawed actions and principles begin to bear their dry and poisoned fruits.

There is a reason that many of those in the US who've made a lot of money in recent years prefer to live in gated communities. They instinctively realize they've placed themselves in danger, by taking too much from others, thus jeopardizing the well-being of their fellow men and women who have not been as fortunate as they are.

If India could learn from the US's recent mistakes, it would be a good thing. It would also take the steam out of Naxalite recruitment.

After all, it isn't the right to believe this or that that is the issue, it's a matter of who is using how much violence to get their way.

If one has enough to eat, access to medicine for an aging parent or sick child, the dignity of honest, properly-paying work, and this is true for all in one's own community and those nearby, even if one believes in Maoist theories, one will have no reason to act violently towards others.

Altruism arises in humans and other species because over the long term it benefits those species' survival. Altruism forgives ideas and looks a practical realities, and how the rest of one's species is doing, survival-wise.

Money is like a drug that hazes the mind with overexcitement, and altruism somehow gets lost.

The growing desperation in areas susceptible to Maoist organizers is because there's not enough on-the-ground altruism being practiced by those who have the means to share with those who have virtually nothing. It's nothing directly to do with the Maoist organizers. They're taking advantage of a pre-existing weakness.

We don't have a Naxalite movement at the moment, but it may come. Communism and theories of violent action made their strongest inroads into American lives in the Great Depression, when many people died of hunger here. The Great Depression was preceded by a period of economic stratification.

Heath: I completely understand you point and cant argue on that. Here is my take on the dichotomies of India's economy.

India's economy was a predominant economy for almost 3000 years in the world. Its hegemony was lost in late 1700s. It took roughly 200 years to completely ruin it.

They say every long journey STARTS with the first step! When you and I are down in dumps, or the entire family is down in dumps, then somewhere.. someone has to make a beginning..

Now, in the first step not everyone will get the benefit.. but the beginning should be made.

Something that took 200 years to bring to the ground will take at least 100 years to repair to even ordinary levels!

When the economic revitalization was started in 1992 by Dr. Singh and MNCs like Pepsi were coming in.. these socialists would taunt by saying that we need roads and not potato chips. of course, that argument was topped by "See, what happened to India when East India company came?"

To me that was the HEIGHT of nonsense for two reasons:

1. East India company got the charter to come to India on Jan 1 1600. It fought the Battle of Plassey in 1750's. 150 years of strategic plan followed to a "T"!! One heck of a Project manager they must have had! No, the way our rulers and people were.. we were ripe to be colonized! So, THAT is why Brits ruled over us.

2. Economic entities will follow profits. That is a given. Heck why companies.. everyone in the world follows that. If the peasant today got rich what will he do? Same thing. So why pretend? And was Pepsi making a plant over an area where road was to be built? NO! WOuld any infrastructure giant come help us without the potential to earn and having trust in a workable and demonstratable judicial system in place? No! That is exactly what these initial MNCs did for India. They made the case! They told the world that guys - irrespective of what may have happened to Coke and IBM in the past, you could rely on India as it wasn't another Banana republic.

Now, we have companies coming in to build roads. So now the argument has shifted.. how is it helping the poor.. farmers suicide etc and caste and labor issues.

Now, does the progress in economic structure and opening up of roads next to a village which was in hinterland IMPROVE the chances of justice reaching the poor laborer? HECK yes. Is it happening? NO!

I am sick and tired of the shifting arguments... arguments that have very little intelligence and genuine LONG TERM concern for the poor.

You can throw all the companies out.. close the IT parks.. burn the f*cking highways and metros.. and claim victory for the poor. But is it?

To HONESTLY - and that is the operative word here - UNDERSTAND the issues with India's fight to poverty - you have to analyze its genesis!

India was always an open economy. Indian trade was all over the place. But for some reason society closed itself. You saw the Chinese Europeans taking long voyages.. but Indian rulers just closed their eyes.

Nalanda and Taxila were universities OPEN to meritorious students from around the world. Over time.. these things werent relevant anymore.

Was dynamite and gun powder a bad thing? Was making canons a bad thing? YES! But Indian rulers closing their eyes and NOT investing in it.. slaved generations for 300 years and empoverished BILLIONS!!

How is investing in a fighter plane today ANY different from Tipu SUltan's investment in the latest canons!

Alas, he also needed to be up on his enemies.. specially those within.. to save India's VAST masses from centuries of poverty! He forgot that bit!

How is that any different from today?

I am not the one to muse on romantics and think in poetics when issues of livelihood or basic existence are involved. Such emotions are useless if you cannot close the circle... if you are either not willing or not prepared to take a long term VIEW of ending poverty!

In the name of ending poverty in their NEXT TERM.. the communists and socialists have bankrupted West Bengal!!

The Public Sector Unions are another matter! These same socialists are up in arms against the privatization of the State ELectricity Boards, for example, because "jobs will be lost"! YEAH? Here is the real facts:

India loses USD 6.5 BILLION (yes with a B) EVERY SINGLE year in electricity loses!

With a little over 1 billion people that is roughly $6/person/year increase in cost of electricity or loss for the economy!! Every year the cost was NOT increased to cover the losses, one additional village got the chance to get electricity which IT SHOULD HAVE GOT!

Somebody paid! Not the guy running the factory.. not the middle class guy.. but the poor farmer and the villagers! For the socialists need to give out jobs to people who are unscrupulous enough to let lawless steal the electricity!

Do you see the paradox?

Want to hear more? 40% of the food produced in India rots!! That is around 16 MILLION TONNES of foodgrain and 40 MILLION TONNES of fruits and vegetables!

For a country where people DIE of hunger this is CRIMINAL! You know why it rots??

Go to the nearest state food godowns and see why? The grains for last two years are lying in the open.. there is not good enough distribution to take that grain away to those poor! And the socialists would NOT let this sector be privatized.. WHY?? because then the "Pepsis" will make the profit "while the farmer will die of hunger"! DAMN IT .. HE DIES RIGHT NOW! And will KEEP on dying until that f*cking grain is moved out!!

Rahul, you know what I am talking about! I have done a project at NAFED... and that is still better than the Government godowns.. but even that was pathetic!

The Insenstivity of Ignorance is MIND-BOGGLING in India. Rhetoric is used time and again to cover it up. Until when? When will we get up and say "Enough is Enough" .. from today .. to heck with romantics and poetics in normal world.. I am WILLING TO FACE THE WORLD AS IT IS!

Cheers,
Desh

"Every year the cost was NOT increased to cover the losses, one additional village got the chance to get electricity which IT SHOULD HAVE GOT!"

should have read

Every year the cost was NOT increased to cover the losses, one additional village DID NOT GET the chance to get electricity which IT SHOULD HAVE GOT!

forgive us poets dear Desh,

and to love,
It ALL

it doesn't make sense, does it,
does it ...

Do we have to spell it out, Kate?
Cast those spells!

Dear Mr. Naj, I thought we had a deal :)

To get to your question, I meant that I would help all I could to row communists into the deep end. I certainly didnt mean the poor and hungry. And I do imagine what it is like for people who are not as fortunate, that has nothing to do with communists and I my feelings towards them.

I'll tell you what I dislike about the communists, specially their leaders. They are shamuses. Their philosophy seems to be; one sure way of making the poor feel rich, is by making the rich poorer. That has not succeeded anywhere and yet they shove the same cliche ridden hype at us. People are now fed up and the harm this socialist mind set has wreacked in India is mind boggling. The poor will not get rich merely because you hurl daily abuse at the rich. Its good rabble rousing but will not change their lives one bit or give them more than one meal a day if that. Driving a wedge between the haves and have nots is not putting food in anyones stomach. For all their tall talk they are hypocrites. For all their abuse against the rich they are no different.

Do I feel for the people who sit and watch their kids crying themself to sleep out of hunger. Yes I do. Do I feel guilty about it? No Naj, I don't. I have earned my money through hard work, at times through good luck also and will look after my family the best I can. However, I will also do whatever I can to ease someone else's pain to the extent I can and in a manner that suits me. I think most people do the same.

How would I feel if I were a relative of that unfortunate family? To be honest, I cannot even imagine how I would feel. Probably seek revenge. That however, does not make me a naxalite. We are discussing a mind set and ideology here not invidual crime and intent.

Mind you I think I know what you are getting at which is that apathy and injustice are what the naxalites are fighting against. I agree with that, I do not agree with the means they adopt to achieve their aim.

Im sorry I try to be brief but somehow have still to learn how to manage that.

Regards
Dara

India, oh India, what could be my brief, Mr Dara?

There are elephants who can paint an image of themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LHoyB81LnE

I, the dumbo, saw only richness from India.

The so-called masters have a lot to answer for and I can see it all starts with son's reaction to dad, and dad's reaction to son.
I cannot believe that your son would turn commy, Dara. I do hope this is not an offence as I struggle for brevity, like you.

Dear Rahul,

I agree with most of what you say about how a hostile state apparatus is seeking revenge against someone who is probably innocent.

When you compare India and Bharat, again there is no denying the wide chasm that exists. However, my thinking is let us celebrate India and simultaneously uplift Bharat. There are inequalities in every society.

The last 15 years or so have been milestones in India's economic recovery. Some have benefitted more than others, those who were not so poor have now become middle class, those who were very poor have perhaps also benefitted though not to the same extent. The fact is that things have improved tremendously in 15 years as compared to the agonising crawl of the previous 50.

To-day there are motor cycles and scooters in most villages in India. In the larger places, plumbers, carpenters and masons are able to use technology, in the form of cell phones, to be available round the clock and earn a better living. They were once on the below poverty line perhaps. And to think I have heard Mr Karat rail against the policy of allowing foreigners with their technology into India because terrorists use cell phones to plan their attacks! Just how self destructing can some people be?

There is no denying the abysmal poverty that exists, or the injustice that weaker sections of society are subjected to and it is a matter of shame that in 60 years so many of our people have only misery to look forward to. No food, water, medicine or a roof over their heads with only flies and disease for company.

On the other hand, where has the government got 60,000 crores to write off as loan waivers or 40,000 crores to put into the NREGS? Not from its own resourcefulness but from flourishing corporates and people like you and me and millions of others who are able to pay more in taxes becuase we earn more now. That the money is not utilised correctly and siphoned off is another story but the fact remains India is helping Bharat.

Regards
Dara

Hi Edmund,

Thanks and no thanks! Can I sign up for the brevity class.

Can't see the video properly :(. Have just shifted house and unless there is improvement the ISP I have now is living on borrowed time.

My son the commie reminds me of two favourites of mine.

Clemeanceau (?) the French statesman was asked how he felt about his son being a leftist. He said that if at 20 his son were not a commie he would have shot him and if at 40 he is still one he will shoot him then!

The other variation which I prefer:

If you are not a communist at 20 you have no heart and if you are still one at 40 you have no brains! :)

Regards,
Dara the Mister.

Desh, I don't argue against someone making a start. But it seems that the terrible poverty in what Rahul tells me is called the red corridor is too much to be swept aside and forgotten about in the process.

Consider why the message that's palatable to these regions is one of communism, not of any other -ism. Communism's central economic position is about sharing.

You write:

"Now, does the progress in economic structure and opening up of roads next to a village which was in hinterland IMPROVE the chances of justice reaching the poor laborer? HECK yes. Is it happening? NO!"

It is that final no that is the cause of violence, and previous to any violence, it is why anyone would bother to join the Naxalites in the first place.

So the solution is all about addressing that no.

No one is arguing to throw out MN's, stopping India's growth, etc. etc.

What about sharing that's not under the auspices of Naxalites?

Of course people who aren't trained in economics and financial management, and who are, moreover, greedy politicians (yes, that's redundant, I know), are going to ruin a state when they get in charge of it. Look at our own state of Louisiana. It's not an ideology that's at fault, it's the individuals.

This is why activity to fix the situation needs to develop from two directions: from the top down (national policy) and from the bottom up (nationally-encouraged moral imperative). Only with nationally-available human resources working under a humane set of policies, encouraged by the vast majority of India's population agreeing something needs to be done, can this situation have a hope of a solution.

If the vast majority of India's population cared about what was happening, very strongly, very personally, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

How does one get someone to care? In other words, how does one show people the things that should not be happening? How does one spread the moral imperative against economic inhumanity?

You can start with stories...

Every effort in the right direction is a valuable effort, even when any particular effort fails. It's the repeated attempts to get it right that finally makes things start to move in the right direction.

Enjoyed your quotes Dara, they have deep truth in them.

No suffering no evolution.

Suffer physically and evolve to emotions.

Suffer emotionally and evolve to reason and intellect.

Suffer intellectually and evolve to intelligence or spirituality.

Suffer spiritually and evolve to silence.

None is without suffering. Only the suffering of some is more visible while of others less so.

Physical suffering is the most visible but actual is the least of the suffering.

Emotional suffering comparatively less visible but more suffering.

Intellectual suffering still less visble but still more suffering.

The least visible but the most difficult is the spiritual suffering. You have to die to your physicality, emotions, intellect and even spirituality to be 'born' again and then you will know that everything is at it should be and that whatever is happening is as per a perfect universal scheme of things. You just dont feel like and dont find any need to speak a word.

Heather:

"It is that final no that is the cause of violence, and previous to any violence, it is why anyone would bother to join the Naxalites in the first place."

What I forgot to write there (and I realized later) - was that "Will help get to them eventually? YES".

Now, I can understand that some of these unfortunate and underprivileged people WILL resort to violence. Then you have the follow up question:

If indeed you have to help them what should you do?

Options:

- Glorify their violence and extoll their fight against poverty and worse, JUSTIFY their breaking the law and then if anyone associated with your "struggle" (I call it mafia-ism or goonda-ism) is "unjustly" taken to jail - cry away that the LAW (that YOU so romantically built a COALITION against while glorifying the violence and thought nothing about to start with) is NOT Working??? Can you, or more importantly, SHOULD YOU get to have it BOTH ways?

- Understand the lacunae in the system.. a system that could/should have provided the underprivileged justice but have deprived them of it, and then work to bring a movement and awareness to change that. For all the failings of Gandhi, I think his greatest gift was his ability to mobilize people through very simple means. It is still possible to do that. It ain't easy. But it is still the best way to seek justice.

If you want to make sure that you are treated JUSTLY, you cannot .. SIMPLY CANNOT afford to make mincemeat of law in your journey and treat it like garbage on your way. Very soon, you will be treated like garbage as well by the same system.

I have often argued against Religions (like in my article on Open Source Spirituality), and my greatest issue has been that everyone has this romantic idea of change... ..when they see a problem in the system what do they tend to do? Create another parallel system, thinking that they are solving the problem in the existing system! People see a crooked line on a page and instead of straightening that, they create another line of their own, thinking they have solved the crookedness of the original one!

When everyone tries to do that, in the end you see only an OPAQUE page full of black lines. Instead of solving the problem of a crooked line, we created several other lines - as straight as we could (which, of course, eventually did get crooked themselves) .. while the original issue still remained the same!

When will we understand that the ONLY way to solve an issue is NOT to create a parallel issue but to solve the original one!

That is why to solve the lacunae in the system, the ONLY way is to solve them.. . not to create a parallel system! But then what the great Saints, Masters, Prophets, and Godmen couldn't escape from, how can you expect ordinary mortals to be free of it?

Cheers,
Desh

But Desh, how do you solve them?

When there's a family close by that is starving and fighting with others because of that, how do we treat that one family?

We can feed them and help their lives improve, or we can penalize them. The first option is messier and harder on all in the beginning, but it's the only real solution. The second option protects the rest of society, but it does nothing to address the underlying cause of the problem, so the problem will recur, and it will recur with more bitterness, resentment and violent potential.

Heather:

If a family is starving and dying AND is being targeted the wolves in a society then the options are:

- to address their immediate needs of hunger and shelter through donations (personal and friends)

- raise the agenda through the help of various fora to address the issue. This is easier said than done.. I know. But one's success lies on being reasonable about your chances and effort required. You will have to choose the battles and fight the best ones. Centuries of subjugation will not come to an end easily.. but at least one can do things that can get the process started.

I am not saying that you should penalize the family.

There will be families that will want to kill those who subjugated them. Sure. And that is fine as well in the grand scheme of things. But that personal ire should not give the family a blanket pass to start destroying the legal and other systems? What is personal should stay personal.. it should NOT become an institutionalized reponse. Least of all eulogized as the great revolution!

Think of it.. and tell me.. which such "revolution" by the starry eyed socialists has EVER given justice to the victims!? Ever? Look at what happens in Russia... look at China... Tibet is NOT an isolated issue.. its a symptom of the internal disease spreading outwards.

China is a Hitler's Germany in the making. Its appeasement is akin to Europe's appeasement of Hitler until he just became unbearable.

Revolution and beating down the current system brings change.. but it does not ensure anything for the victims. They still remain where they are.. or someone else becomes the victim. If the labor unions took charge in Bengal and made money through power, that did not end poverty there.. someone else became poor and subjugated. Nandigram is an explicit example of that disease.

Mindless revolutions DO NOT bring justice. They have NEVER.

Cheers,
Desh

You're right in every respect save one, Desh, and that's in thinking that anyone here disagrees with you.

You write:

"...raise the agenda through the help of various fora to address the issue..."

For example, that's being done here, in a casual way. This blog is read globally, and its most active commenters seem to be from India, the US and the UK. Of those three areas, the US and the UK are not knowledgeable about these issues. This kind of discussion is immensely valuable in telling the truth about what's going on. And even that something is going on.

Communism is no longer a viable political alternative in the US. The reason for this is there's not enough social or economic dissatisfaction to keep its fires lit.

This needs to be the case in India, too. And elsewhere.

Just wanna say, Desh, it's a lot of fun back-and-forthing with you.

Heather:

:-) I am sorry my writing style is very passionate..and so it seems sometimes that I am not agreeing with you.

I guess when I write (although addressed to you) I am really addressing a larger audience.

My frustration dealing with such issues comes more because a lot of us approach the current world and its various messages and events without any analysis of our history.

Poverty is not air dropped into any society or country.. its a systemic issue. Its NOT a norms/codes/action issue. If the system is not taken care of, poverty will go on.

When the first Brits set on the path of trade expansion in India, and may have boasted of great gains and profits back home, I am pretty sure that those in the shanties and poor homes would have ridiculed them. But there came a time when their hard work and entrepreneurship as well as barbarism, finally brought dividends to those poor in the shanties of England.

I am not saying that US towns should be made poor or Americans treated badly to make China or India rich.. but what I am saying is that the pendulum keeps moving back and forth. Those who venture out.. and those who work hard ddespite all odds, make it. The generations of the same hard working may lose all that because of laziness.

Chandragupta Maurya was certainly different in his effort than his successors. And their population got to feel the difference.

Similarly, there is a bit of difference between George Washington and George Bush. One set up institutions and the other dismantled them, one put his people above his ambition, the other did the reverse.

The current housing and economic crisis is also the affliction of short sightedness vs long term thinking.

Anyways, this is a long topic :-)

Nice to discuss with you Heather..

Cheers,
Desh

Desh, I know it's not disagreement with me specifically.

Poverty can be air-dropped. It happens when there are things like drought, a tsunami, war, disease, a wide-ranging fire, earthquakes.

While persistent poverty is a systemic issue, it can be modified with norms/codes/action. The way one changes the ailing system is with application of new norms, codes and actions that carry justice with them.

When the Brits started pulling money in from other countries, their poor were only too glad to hope it might come down to them, too. It was not so hopeless or cynical a time that they ridiculed others who were doing well.

As the money began to flow into Britain, they were experiencing population growth off-scale, compared to the end of the Middle Ages with its plagues that decimated the population, and long periods of colder weather. The money served to support a long period of population increases, industrialization and population shifts from rural / agrarian to urban / industrial / trade. The population support structure of Britain changed entirely, due to the influx of money from outside countries. I believe Britain was pretty much self-reliant before this change. In the centuries during which Britain had strong income sources, there was an agglomeration of wealth by a few, less real freedom for the many, and disrespect for the nations serving as the baskets of riches for Britain. I wonder if there weren't more shanty-like living situations at the end of the Empire than there were before Britain stepped into India. Certainly there were more people making their living as servants and piece-workers in factories, rather than living in villages in clean air, supporting themselves through tending to crops and livestock on leased or hereditary strips of land. Shanties tended to exist in Britain's colonies and territories, rather than in Britain proper. Britain controlled its most outspoken and rebellious citizens by sending them to the gallows, or to the colonies as penal workers, indentured servants, or society's throw-aways.

I didn't think you were saying that US towns should be made poorer, or Americans treated badly to make other nations wealthy. I support the evening-out of wealth, with those who have too much allowing the too-much to flow outward to those who have too little.

And so it should be in any society where too much wealth is accumulated in any one place. Like the US, with its large and persistent income disparities. Like India, with its India / Bharat. division. Etc. That there are motorbikes in most small villages may be part fo a process of income redistribution, with new money slowly flowing into those villages. Or it may be a show of local wealth manifested differently than in the past, with the actual distribution of wealth not changing at all. That is all show, and it doesn't matter.

What matters is when people can't survive. When it is a widely-spread problem, it's not due to laziness or anything else like that, it's due to a large segment of people being pushed to the outside of the circle and told to remain there, while the insiders stay warm, well-fed, healthy and wealthy.

If people have no concept of what they can do to make their own lives better, and have no resources to use to do it even if they have the concept, how can they be faulted in any way?

And in such circumstances, when some people come bearing gifts, is it any wonder that they're welcomed as guests?

The question is, where's everyone else? Where are the non-Naxalite guests, and when will they be coming with their gifts?

Hello Harb my friend,

As always you make me realise just how mmuch I need to learn. They are all down to earth and full of wisdom granted only to the very wise. My favourite:

Suffer emotionally and evolve to reason and intellect.

Regards,
Dara

Rahul:

I share your frustration. I have that too within. My thought is that it does not happen because the lobby for those who die from hunger is not big and strong.

I merely believe that those who have tried to do activism on their behalf have fought useless and unnecessary battles with the Rich and the corporates. Maybe this is because these battles bring in money (from China) or are sexy to get headlines..

.. but if I were doing activism for a very poor population, the last thing I would have time for is - to go about giving lectures on how useless the economic development currently is.

Think of it.. all those who have made a difference in poverty war - from Gandhi to Mohd Yunus, have stayed away from this corporate bashing.. they have stuck to their MAIN AGENDA! Somewhere they realize that its always better to USE them as opposed to FIGHT them!

Microfinance is a sexy subject NOW, but it wasnt when Yunus started. But he made it a viable business so he could USE the funding from the large investors.

All this requires focused and disciplined thinking.. and honesty. That is lacking in our country amongst the so-called saviors of our poor.

A friend in my college time used to say:

if you want to sit.. SIT
if you want to talk.. talk
if you want to walk.. WALK dont swagger!

Meaning, if you want to do something.. just do that.. dont add any unnecessary melodrama in your action by taking on useless battles or subjects on the way.

And sorry again, for writing so strongly... i hope you did not mind.

Cheers,
Desh

I agree with Desh K. and Rahul P., intelligence and passion both re important for greater awareness that leads to a better society.

Here's the Wikipedia artcile on Farmers' suicides in India, including those in Vidharbha region of Maharashtra mentioned by Rahul P.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers'_suicides_in_India

I hope this information is certainly familiar to a person who can constructively participate in a debate about Indian Economic development.

PM Manmohan Singh believes in what he calls an "inclusive" economic growth, where the fruits of economic development are supposed to be distributed to all classes of people, to avoid rich-getting-richer-WHILE-poor-getting-poorer scenario. how far this succeeded in general is open for interpretation.

One should also remember, as Rahul Pandita pointed out, a good percent of Indians still live under the poverty line and hunger is still the killer. We should also realize that a lot of problems faced by he poor and lower middle class in India is not just solely economical but also cultural and societal, and there is no single governmental solution for this problem.

The rich in India have to learn to sacrifice for the common good, otherwise it is eventually going to hurt them and hurt everyone in the long run. If increasing taxes for the middle class is the solution for welfare schemes to uplift the poorest, so be it. But the reality of such policy shifts is dictated by politics. Taxing the corporates could be counter productive in the Global freetrade environment. There needs to be a balance somewhere and the media and common public should start thinking about the poorest of the poor who are the real indicators of the stability and strength of the economic growth. Ignoring them leads to not just the costly security (like Naxalite, Maoist) problems but also the preventable health and further environmental problems that is bad for the economy and the people.