Where all the rush has gone,
eagerness ?

Suspended will, desires have none, quiet,
selfless

Fear have parted, taking her friends,
no remorse left, just -
kindness

No pain of cracking the mold of the heart
broken to,
openness

Only the humming of bees, following
ecstasy nectar of bliss -
dizziness

Names and forms are next to it,
meaningless

Who am I ? Echoing .... I am That -
nameless

Awakened, witness of all ever flowing
wakefulness

I think sometimes it can go back the other way.

Our sense of purpose leads to a consciousness of our identity. Thus my being gripped by education leads to suspect I may be a teacher.

Dear Avtar,

I am enjoying the themes you tackle I hope you don't mind me introducing some other alternative sources on the chosen by you topics. Reality is not quantifiable verbally or through any other finite means, we know that, yet still use the language trying to locate it somewhere in our understanding. It is perhaps to approximate the truth before the experience will wipe out any traces of that (previous) understanding.

So in that spirit of the debate here is yet another view, but just before commenting on the current theme, I am taking this as a chance to share something with regard to your previous letter on the theme of ''Time'':

Re-reading Dr Avtar Singh's ''Does Time Exist?'', and reflecting on the validity of the concept, especially the part on dissolving the time via dissolving the ego ( quoted bellow ):


''...Relying on time and evolution to liberate humanity is like relying on gravity to lift you up or riding the waves on the ocean surface to find the hidden treasures underneath the bottom of the ocean. There is no complete solution to the dilemma of time except for to dissolve it via dissolving the ego, since both time and ego (the biological or material-only consciousness) are mere illusions, howsoever stubborn. The purpose and destiny of human life can be realized only via transcending time (Maha-Samadhi), rather than remaining captivated in it...''

I thought it would be illumining to hear another view by the foremost expert in the west on many branches of Veda, Dr David Frawley. The quote is taken from the book called 'Tantric Yoga and the wisdom Goddess', ISBN: 0-910261-39-3, ( by the way highly praised by Deepak Chopra).

Here is an extract on Goddess Kali, by Dr David Frawley:

''...The Sanskrit word Kali literally means time. Kali is the feminine of the word for time, which in masculine is Kala. Time, as we all are forced to understand, is foremost of the powers which governs the universe. In its essential nature time is eternity itself, perpetual changeless duration. Everything change but change itself. Everything moves but the movement itself, movement itself does not stop. This perpetuity or immutability in duration is the secret message of time. Ultimately, time is being itself, the unborn, uncreate, undying, absolute reality. Time in its manifestation conceals unmanifest time which is eternity, the mirror on which the image of time move but which they cannot affect...

... Time is not a mere abstract continuum in which things occur, it is a living field, a conscious energy, a matrix and a vortex. Time is the great womb and hence has a feminine quality....

Time is the working out of a cosmic intelligence. It is the very breath of cosmic spirit. Time is not a mere mathematical concept but the very stuff of our experience, the rhythm of our lives. What are we apart from time ? Time is our mother and origin, as well as our final abode. Time is the mother who eats her children, which is one of the terrible aspects of Kali. Yet in devouring her own children she is also returning them to her wholeness and delight...

Time is life. Life is our movement in time. Through our own life-force or Prana we experience time. Kali as time is Prana or life-force...

Life and death are the rhythms of time, the ebb and flow of eternal sea. Kali is life that exists in death and death that exists in life... To die daily is her daily worship...'' ( end of a quote )

I am curious to the response of scientifically minded readers, if they would find a moment to reflect on the quoted above. It may seem all too esoteric, yet if one accepts the time as the mass of energy, one is entering an entirely different universe, much more conscious than the one based on time and space as being a mere abstraction.

We know that time and space are interdependent. Space literally unfolds in time like a Great Safawid (Antique Persian Carpet), with an amazing design being revealed at each and new unfolding. The illusion is not time & space (not the carpet), but an appearance of an intricate pattern as separate from its base. Blinded by the senses and bewildered by the complexity of the colours and the shapes we loose the thread out of which the carpet is being woven. Yes, the carpet here is the matrix of the universe, the mass of sound and light which gives birth to the phenomenon of time & space, through the agency (thread) of Prana. Hidden yet present in every fiber, the fabric of time & space is stitched by Prana.

Our understanding of the universe, is subject to the unfolding of its design as well. Whenever one thinks that one got an overall view of the whole picture, a new dimension is being reveal which challenges the previous idea. Knowledge itself is not something fixed, just like time and space it continuously expands into infinity and there is no beginning and no end to this process. No beginning and no end ! It expands into infinity and collapses into singularity at every instant, not just at time of dissolution. What we call a universe is contained in singularity of a point and every point in the universe contains the Totality. There is no creation and no destruction of the universe, it is unborn and timeless. Whence its pointless to talk about what's real and what's unreal, when all there is - Totality.

Dr Avtar Singh is correct, some Indian schools like Samkhia, does not recognize the existence of kala ( time ) as real, but Samkhia is not entirely non-dual philosophy, unlike Advita Vedanta or Kashmir Shaiva schools, with Purusha & Prakriti being irreconcilable entities. With the Prakriti being a reflection of Purusha, while Purusha is inert, immobile Absolute. Yet, not all the classical six schools of Indian philosophy agree on the concept of time in equal measure, not to mention the later teachings that sprung on the wake of spiritual renaissance in India in the Middle Ages. With the establishment of Tantra, Shaiva Advita and other schools based on direct yogic apprehension of reality rather than on dogma of classically interpreted vedic texts promoted by the priestly cast as the only way to attain moksha.

Scientific community has a similar attitude, that of an orthodox clergy, towards those who have the insight based on the personal experience. Preferring to stick to the quantifiable data which could be equated in mathematical language. The language of the Universe is not made of digits, it is a pulsating and conscious Ocean of sound and light. I've never heard of anyone, who have probed reality and saw it in terms of numbers, yet many who have, recalled the seeing of geometrical patterns corresponding to the accompaniment of the mass of sound. The Beautiful Symmetry... of the Music of the Spheres.

Jai Guru Dev

"Evolution is not a glory but a curse or disease of the unconsciousness of the ego and the perceived time is its manifested symptom."

Old 'Satan' is still alive and well, it seems?

Goodmorning Avtar and Everyone

Avtar you are without a doubt a very intelligent and educated man but I have trouble with a what I feel is your harsh judgments(The life (biological) that ends in death without realizing the true identity of the Self is a wasteful life since it cannot have a genuine purpose without a genuine identity.)
as to people who for someone reason or another do not have the desire or need to "seek" or to wonder about their true idenity and therefore remain very "at home" in the identity given them at birth and tended all throughout their lives.

I have always had trouble with someone "out there" telling me what "their" perspective is when it comes accompanied with such "stern," "harsh" "matter of fact" pronouncements....

This is my take....I do not feel that each "conscious"(baby) born is meant to "quest" so to speak...or "search" for their "true" identity....the fire of that particular desire is simply not burning for this consciousness...ah...so what?....a wasted life...a wasted lifetime....from what I have experienced....there is this little thing behind the veil of the space-time event of our being called and perceived as the "ocean of compassion," we, all, each and every little realized and unrealized consciousness returns to, once, our time is served.....

I love contemplating the question of "Who Am I" but it has never been a be-all end-all situation..it is more like "come what may."
And the answer to that question is and can be only answered by each one of us....alone...we enter into, face...our true identity....all by our lonesome because that is the only way...we, each of us....get to experience and know....for certain, for sure....Who we really are, it is a one on one....EVENT, always and forever.

your answers, your experience can never be mine, never....I have to have my own...john doe has to have his own...we can't borrow another's experience or answer to get in the magic door of recognizing our true SELF.

have a wonderful day....ruth

Dear Avtar,

I have read your book. Here is my humble opinion:

What Avtar has tried to convey in his articles here and through his book is in the first place the way Western science has been busy to look at everything, nature, space, etc. "outwardly" and tried to find proof and truth in mathematical equations, found through outside observation.

The way the East looks at the whole matter is "inwardly" and they come up with the same truth, expressed in another way.

It was especially Einstein with his famous formula, who discovered both sides, hence his saying: "I want to know the thoughts of God".

How can one know the "thoughts of God" other than going to search inside oneself? Yet he never could supply the correct equation to express this outwardly.

I have read the history of "Western" science, Harbhajan Singh's book: Self Designed Universe
and Avtar Sing's book: The Hidden Factor

and have been able to reconcile all three within myself.

Western Science: At Planck's level there is nothing anymore to equate.

Harb comes to that same conclusion in a more metaphysical way in his Philosophy of Science: Self Designed Universe.

Avtar provides the scientifical equation of this Gravity Nullification Model and gives Science herewith the possibility that the proof of everything that exists is BELOW Planck scale and hence: Non-Local.

He calls this spontaneous decay or free will.

By and by the more advanced telescopes, directed towards deep space, will give science the same conclusion.

In the end this is Conscious Awareness:

The Silent witnessing of one's thoughts.

Silence, thoughts, reality.

It is the total freedom within.

This is what I have understood of it and it matches my own experience of Oneness and everything I have experienced afterwards.

I do not pretend that this is the perfect truth cause I am only a spark of the Divine. Yet in a holistic way a spark can hold the complete truth of the Whole.

It shows to me that truth can be found in anything and therefore it is called LOVE:

List of Virtually Everything :)

Best wishes to all, from the heartphone

Mieke

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000104.html

.

Dear Avtar,

Previously(March 3) you asked, "What is the One question every human being must seek answer to before the end of life?"

Do you think that we MUST do anything?

You do not say, "We must FIND an answer."

You do not say, "We must seek the MEANS to an end of Life."

Do you believe, Avtar, that Crucial Wisdom is knowing to ask this question?

Or is is all about thinking One knows the answer?

Identify with any pair, trio, or group--

Love means: When they suffer, I suffer, too!

Perhaps, The Communion of the Saints "happens" where this Great Attractor resides.

I look forward to reaching that place someday...without expending any effort.

Take it easy, Avtar. I hope you've had a good time in swell company!

Peace, bro! Keith

.

The gravity of the situation is relative to the unknown first cause.

Acceptance and recognition lighten the load without lifting a finger.

Being conscious is in my experience not enough. As Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj points out we have to move beyond consciousness (consciousness and unconsciousness) in order to truly know our Self. Yet what is beyond consciousness, cannot be known in terms of knowledge, therefore it cannot be expressed in words or actions. Being "it" is action. The only true action.

Dear Avtar and all

I think to be a committed spiritual seeker, one does need the willingness to give up the ego's belief system and the need to be *right* or change the world or another person since the appearance of the world is only a projection of one's own ego-mind.

We're all born with an ego, and everybody's ego operates about the same. Because the ego is constructed of 'positionalities', it has no option to be anything else than what it is. The trick is not to treat it as an 'enemy or something to be dissolved' but rather as an 'it' to be observed and witnessed. The act of witnessing or observing allows one to be unattached and not identify with any one idea, thought, or image but it takes practice.

Yo! I am getting in too deep for a beautiful spring day, but I think that the total dissolution of the ego/mind comes about by the Grace of God not by our own efforts and desires.

Have a beautiful Sunday.

love
bonnie

The truth is such a hard pill to swallow and always will be. We all give so much meaning to transitory events that they rule our small personal worlds, and our ego latches on to them giving them major importance with us, but not with God. Sure, God is in our soul but the ego that experiences self-importance in duality will never be a force that sustains itself indefinitely. Each of our personal worlds are entirely of our own making, and we have to wake up to that fact eventually, and drop that ungodly creation, to see what is Godly. No one else is able to do this for you, because it is your doing, your dream baby, and must be liquidated by you. The search for truth is a guiding force within all of us, and unless its repressed by the ego it continues in all facets of life. Kurt

My identity is in constant change. To know my identity is to accept change.
Who I am is also changing. Once I find my true identity it will then change again. It's like trying to hold on to the wind so you can give that little piece of air a name.

To me truth is the same thing. It doesn't exist in a set way. I think this is why so many generations of people have spent their whole lives seeking it but then here we are still trying to explain it and it is still elusive.

So far, for all the seeking and believing we are still no closer to 'knowing' the 'truth'. Can anyone sum up the truth in simple to understand words and in such away that we all go, oh, I get it that's it?

Yo Bonnie, it is a beautiful spring day.

everything is everything

derek

Dear Avtar,

my first comment was a bit confusing, I think...what I was trying to say is that when you make a judgment such as this...of your's "The life (biological) that ends in death without realizing the true identity of the Self is a wasteful life since it cannot have a genuine purpose without a genuine identity."....this seems like it is more of an opinion than a truth, or fact. It is a very authoritative declaration for you to make considering that it probably isn't your's to declare but to have "just" an opinion on, no?

have a great day Avtar, ruth

The Truth is that, which doesn’t change, because if it changes, it wasn’t the Truth.

The Truth is what time can not touch, because it’s changeless, therefore Eternal.

The Truth is that, which remains perfect, because that which changes isn’t perfect.

The Truth doesn’t let in imperfection in, because if it did it wouldn’t be perfect.

The Truth can not be sensed by the body, ego or mind, because they are imperfect.

The Truth can only be seen by the truth, and you are that Truth.

The Truth has to look away from the untrue to see the Truth.

The Truth seen by the truth returns to the untrue to talk about the Truth.

The Truth wrestles in the mud of the untruth in order to describe the Truth.

The Truth turns to mud when the mud is used to show the Truth.

The Truth remains hidden beneath the mud of the untrue.

Hi KAN(Kurt),
The truth is - Creation allows for every kind of expression.
Within,
and without.
To me this is glorious
and when I see with my eyes and feel with my heart - and celebrate with nature, with people,
with you,
the truth is,
I love it all in this present moment
right now!

love,
~ Kate

Well said, Kate!

There is nothing but the Truth - the changing and the changless, the inperfect and the perfect, the timeless and within time...

# 13, 14, 15

Brilliant Harb, I agree, Kate's answer is fragrant like a flower.

Kan, when Truth reveals Itself it turns mud to gold.
Nothing changes though, for in Truth everything is pure gold.

Ohh Boy ! All this questions ? Sometimes the only answer is the gesture
of an offered flower ( Buddha's reply to Kashyapa's question on the ultimate ).

All this is an act of Offering, an Oblation.
Poured in by Brahman into its own fire...

It is Infinity offering itself into the present moment -
and the experience of this very moment is an offering
back into Infinity.

Jai Guru Dev

Friend Igor, I too have been admiring your brilliance in silence since you first wrote here perhaps on Deepak's thread on Maharshi.

As Ramana would have said "To a jnani (knower of Truth) everybody is a jnani." Similarly, a perfect person cannot but see the world as perfection incarnate. Nor an egoless person can see anybody with ego.

Hey there, Harb!

I agree that Igor seems to be for real.

I haven't seen many newcomers to Mallika's site this year.

Jai Guru Dev(?) would make a nice addition, if he decides

to be like unto Uncle TREE, and stick around for awhile.

.

Btw, did you check out the link I offered to the Great Attractor?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000104.html

Can you explain this phenomena...from as far away as your

current level of understanding allows?

It certainly doesn't seem to be the result of weak interactions,

except for the fact...that it seams...it takes

a very long time to vacuum and tidy the place up.

What do you think of the cosmic maid?

Cheers to you, mate! Keith

Keith, the way I see things I generally do not feel like going into their details anymore. However, if I were to hazard a guess for what you have presented, I would say: The Great Attractor is to the said galaxies like Sun is to our earth or to the whole Solar System. And just as the whole Solar System initially got thrown out from the Sun and will finally fall into it the whole galaxies first got thrown out from the Great Attractor and will finally fall into it. This falling may be looking like the Great Attractor is actually attracting the galaxies towards itself. The Great Attractor could be something intermediate between Singularity - from which the universe itself was thrown out at Big Bang - and our Sun.

So far as it being the work of weak forces of any forces, take it for granted that nothing is beyond the pale of four basic forces or interactions. This wise the whole universe can basically be divided into four basic phases, then all these four basic phases to further four basic phases and so on. This way, the Great Attractor with its set of surrounding galaxies too will have main four phases, just as our Sun along with its solar system too will have four basic phases and then each further having four basic phases and so on. Continuing, our Earth as a whole will also have four basic phases or Ages and further in it our species are in fact also the result of four basic phases at a certain level. These phases according to my book are: The phase of Clay to Minerals, the phase of Plants to Animals, the phase of Apes to Man, and the fourth phase is yet to emerge one 'species of which I have named as Superman in my book. The second may will not be there as by then we will be again like Clay ready to merge into the Sun.

BTW, scientists or science-oriented people here, or Avtar Singh armed with his Holistic Relativity may be better equiped to explain what you have asked.

For me, it is always a desire to create, to craft, to build, to organize, re-arrange, decorate.. is this who I am?

Sometimes the driving force of artistic passion; can become overwhelming!

Is this the frantic pushing and strength as spirit-changelings--constantly giving birth to a new "now"?

Love, North

Void
Todd

Truth has no opposite. It is either present or not. Only the true is true; nothing else exists.

Thank you Shadow,

It is my job to point out the truth, because the untruth is all you can see here. I'll leave Brahma up to you guys to glorify it, I'm only interested in glorifying the Parabrahma, which is the truth (God). Kurt

Yes North it is :)

It is an art in itself to dialogue with one another in such a way that everybody stands in his or her dignity when it comes to telling his/her truth, while at the same time one can disagree.

And although one disagrees, one can always respect the opinion of the other and perhaps even learn something from it.

I believe this thread is such an example of honouring the Divine or the Guru in the other in the same way as one honours this in oneself.

Namaste,

Mieke

Yo Kan
So what never changes?
Maybe I have a few more life times to live before what you wrote makes any sense to me.
To me if something never changes it stagnates. Everything I can observe from my limited perspective is in constant change.

and Shadow,
"Truth has no opposite. It is either present or not. Only the true is true; nothing else exists."

To me this is like asking someone what is a car and the person says, a car is a car it is nothing more than a car and it is neither truck nor bus. It doesn't answer the question of what is a car.

My questions go largely unanswered here because they're too naive and simple or I am just a pest, but so many common people ask questions and are given cotton candy answers by the 'people in the know'. My thought is that spiritual and scientific people don't know any more than the common people but they have a lot of education to cover it up.

I apologize for being disrespectful and if I've been a pest here with my questions, I apologize for that as well. But I have been commenting here for over a year and still no real answers.
I come to the conclusion that there are no answers and there is no set truth. There is only my perspective and that is colored by my experiences. I'm okay with that.

derek

KAN

That which is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (God) is not vulnerable to emotional upset and is thus not injured by anybody's wrongdoing. There is no trauma to avenge.

doodleman

Begin by accepting the very important statement that 'all truth is subjective.' Do not waste lifetimes looking for an objective truth because no such thing exists. Even if it did, it could not be found except by the purely subjective experience of it. Nothing can be said to exist unless it is subjectively experienced.

A car can only be a car. To be otherwise would be like asking a rabbit to be a dog.

The Truth is God, Perfection, Absolutly pure space of heaven, which is without attributes.
You can't see it in the world for this is only an expression of the truth, and expressions are fleeting never constant. While Eternity is ever pure, unchanging, for if it did it is no longer true. Only the Soul can see it, because it is it.
Like the white film screen that hides behind the show of images it is always here, but colored over. How could you see it here when all this play of Brahma is going on that’s why we meditate, to cut the show of colors off. Kurt

Brother doodleman,

It's always going to be tough - using words to describe something that's supposed to be above all language. I encourage you to keep trying different ones on for size till you find the one that fits, so to speak.

One bunch of words that personally made a lot of sense to me is this one below; I offer it for your review:
http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf/GOD_Man_and_World.pdf

Good luck, fellow traveler/seeker!

# 24 Yes Mieke that's it,

That's the noble purpose of speech, Shakti's manifestation as the matrix of the letters, directed towards an attempt to ''describe'' Brahman. No one, who knows the Truth, will even dream to punctuate it, yet it's the utmost fan to approximate... Who am I ?

The most penetrating insights into ''the nature of the quest'' in relation to Godhead is given in the Puranas and the Upanishads through the dialogues of great seer Yajnavalkya with two females - Gargi, a famous philosopher, with whom he constantly battled (verbally) and later with one of his two wifes Maitreyi.

# 17, 18 Thank you Harb and Keith,

I'll take your comments as a welcome. I cannot promise to stick, yet I can reassure you, I am in this Blog but not of it.

# 23 Dear Kurt,

It is Brahman, not Brahma. Forgive me, yet according to the Hidnu Lore, Brahman IS Parabrahman (the Supreme). And the Brahma is one of the hindu trinity, the aspect of the Absolute as the creator. So I guess you are glorifying my own glory, according to my understanding. Cheese !

Love to all,

igor

There is only two dimensions if you really look at it: One is the evolution of the energy particle which has a multitude of levels scaling from the visible down to the very subtle invisible, but still a product of the energy particle. The other dimension is Absolute space or the Almighty, which is without the particles of time. Your Soul rests in this realm called Eternity, but it is covered up by the movement of consciousness (energy), and until you look away (meditate) from that which you think you are, you won't see that which you really are. Your Soul is in Eternity with God right now, it never left, just covered up by imperfections. Kurt

Kurt
Thanks for your comment. I guess truth and identity and even reality are left up to the interpretation of the individual. If through my experience I interpret a dog and a rabbit are no different then they are the same to me. There are many forms of cars and some seem like buses.

The interpretation in me respects the interpretation in you.

One last silly question, why is truth covered up with such beautiful colors?

derek

How could you understand yourself in a formless, colorless (except for black and grey) empty realm that has no comparisons. No points of reference, no others besides the Almighty. Now you have comparisons, the mind and body is the car you drive in a land of opposites. You now learn about existence: the existence of the universe, your existence, and the existence of the Almighty. Yes it is beautiful, but not lasting, not for us nor for anything. Kurt

# 32 Dear Derek,

I didn't mean to bulge in, but take it easy man, your eagerness and your desire to find the answer is shared by many, no doubt. Yet you've got to be real, if you truly wish to find the answer to the existence you wouldn't find it just by reading this stuff posted over here. I'm not undermining the quality of the exchange although as a new participant I must say the intensity is not always there.

This format is more like for being inspired and for being stimulated, hardly for getting a fast-baked realization. Swami Muktananda used to say: ''Realization doesn't come cheap.'' Even if for some it seams all too obvious, there is inherent quality of one's own perception which conceals or indeed reveals the Truth.

At the same time if the answer cannot be found here it cannot be found over there either. In front of a laptop or on the mount Kailash makes no difference. Because consciousness is homogenous. Like there is no wetter place in the Ocean, its all pretty wet equally. So that is the real sincere answer.

Yet I would still stick with some kind of sustained practice, best if its already has the provenance and the sound reputation like a good wine of a known vineyard.

I mean the tradition which produced and produces year after year the stock of a well steeped in Cosmic, even better still God-Consciousness bodies. With the winemaker totally soaked wet in Unity Consciousness.

There is a direct way of knowing and when that happens one exclaims with amazement: '' It is more real that I thought of what is real meant to be, yet it is so simple that it seemed totally unreal !!!''

Oh yeh, the car or a rabbit ? Its more like how far down the hole you prepared to go ?

With Love and Respect,

igor

doodleman

Forgive me if what I said was confusing.
Let me say this...Seek to 'know' not to 'know about.' 'Know' implies subjective experience; 'know about' means to accumulate facts. In the end, all facts disappear and there are none to be known.

Yo Shadow , sWORDSman and Kurt
I will keep shopping and trying on new ideas, I am an endlessly curious creature. In the Chinese Zodiac I am a rabbit, I am curious like a cat and hope to someday be a forgiving and accepting as a dog. And I dream of flying cars.

derek

doodleman

One can only start from where they are.

peace brother

Curiosity with an open mind, a keen intellect, a respectful nature, and persistence is exactly what you need on the path. Keep up the good work.

Our efforts at knowing the Truth or God etc is like the efforts of a drop of water in a sea to realize that it in fact itself is the sea.

Or of a ring of gold to realize that it in fact gold. Just as a ring or bracelet of gold are not less gold similarly, you, me, cat, dog, car are not less Truth or God. There is nothing underneath or overneath, ALL is Truth.

If it was that easy everyone would be Realized, and it wouldn’t be so rare as it is. It takes a lot of earnest effort at contemplation and meditation to get the job done and then it becomes effortless. kurt

If it was that easy everyone would be Realized, and it wouldn’t be so rare as it is. It takes a lot of earnest effort at contemplation and meditation to get the job done and then it becomes effortless. kurt

Sorry, I thought it didn't take.

Igor
IB is not really a place I expect to find definitive answers but more a place to exchange ideas and play with my perceptions in order to get out of my box. I have had many spiritual experiences, out of body experiences and a feeling of complete connectedness to everything. These experiences have happened to me from a very early age but I was raised in an environment that had no guidance for my experiences. I feel at times that I am one thoughtlessness away from something.
I am here at IB to talk to people who may have insights to the strange place I find myself, not knowing what I know.

sWordSman
I will check out the site you posted.

Harb
I am a moment in timlessness but I am a moment.

peace and thank you, I have much to contemplate

derek

doodleman, sorry if it bores you but just felt like saying: If you are a moment IN timelessness, you may as well say you are timeless.

How do you know you are a moment in timelessness if there is not something in you which knows the timelessness? You can identify with that as well. The fact is that we are always both, moment in time and yet timeless, a mix of being and becoming.

# 43 Derek,

Thanks for replying, I didn't doubt your integrity for a moment that's why ( and it's' way past midnight over here ) I felt like lightening up a bit the dialogue yet still having something to ponder about.

By the way, I've just posted on the theme of 'The Christ Within', I welcome you to share it as well, it might show you there are totally different ways to understand what it means eternal Truth, through the investigation of what is life-n-death.

With that I leave you all in Peace,

igor

# 43 Oops, I meant 'the Jesus Inside Me'. I better go to sleep before I get naughty...

Hey Harb
Not bored at all. Yes I understand timlessness through my art. When I am in the creative mode it is much like meditation. I lose sense of time, sense of my body and feel the oness of everything.
I am both a part of everything and an individual separate from everything.

"A mix of being and becoming". I like that. There is something, a feeling, a kind of overwhelming yet calm excitement in between the two, being and becoming. I have not yet learned to grasp yet. A unifying of the two, like accepting them both at the same time. It makes me shiver inside.

This has been a very exciting exchange for me in this thread, thank you guys for being patient with me.

With much respect to you all

derek

Dear friends:

Thanks for very stimulating discussions/comments.

Let me provide a holistic scientific perspective or response to some key questions/comments:

1. Truth vs. Reality:

The absolute truth is what exists beyond space and time.

The relative reality is what a separated standalone (ego) observer perceives when he/she observes the absolute truth.
(Caution: some use the definitions of reality vs. truth interchangeably)

Since the truth is Eternity beyond space and time, it is all encompassing wherein all matter/energy/space/time merges into one wholesome eternal existence. Eternity is the simplest entity and is zero-dimensional; hence un-describable in terms of language, words, thoughts, emotions, or relative experiences that are manifested in dimensions of space and time. Just as the Zero cannot be defined in terms numbers greater than zero, truth cannot be defined in terms of relative or dimensional realities. Since it is beyond space-time, it is neither changing nor unchanging both of which are relative realities. It simply exists without any relative adjectives – good or bad, perfect or imperfect, kind or unkind, honest or dishonest, changeful or changeless etc. Truth simply is and absolutely, howsoever not relatively, experience-able by being one with it. All separated identities of the ego-self must be dissolved to experience the absolute truth.

Relative reality, on the other hand, manifests with the same adjectives and characteristics as the separated observer. If the observer is changing, the relative reality is changing; if the observer sees green only, the reality appears green, and so on. The relativity comes from the separated-ness of the observer from the absolute truth. As soon as the observer merges into the truth, it becomes the truth ending the relativity. Then, there is no more separated observer nor relative reality left to be described. Just as the river that is describable by its flow becomes un-describable as soon as it merges into the ocean. The ocean dissolves the relative reality of the river. The river must merge into the ocean to experience being the ocean. If the river keeps forcing the description of the ocean in terms of its own relative realities of time-varying flow and other parameters, it would never be able to describe the ocean.

Time and evolution are relative realities or illusions; timelessness (spacelessness) is the absolute truth. Becoming is the relative reality of the ego; egoless being is the truth. There is no guarantee that becoming will always end into being, since becoming is only a relative reality in time that itself is an illusion of the separated observer- the ego. Becoming may also end up in a never-never-land of chaos or endless cycles of uncontrolled becoming. Just as the light has never seen the darkness, the absolute truth has never seen the illusive relative realities. The being has never seen the becoming. The being is also not the end result of becoming.

Since the relative reality changes in space and time, it is also described by some as “Illusion” (Maya) – now you see it now you don’t. Hence, all relative realities perceived by separated observers (egos) have no absolute existence but are temporal illusions continuously evolving or changing towards increasing entropy, chaos, complexity, and uncertainty. It is possible that many observers wearing green glasses see nothing but green; but that does not make the absolute truth to be green. The absolute truth is not limited or confined by the unconsciousness of the ego, no matter how big in numbers or size. Fortunately, the absolute truth is not political democracy or majority rule.

One cannot cry fowl, complain about the harshness, nor have the option to impact the truth as it exists. No stand-alone person (ego) can surrender to it, because surrendering maintains a separation between the “surrenderee” and the “surrenderer”; surrender is the ultimate trick of the ego to protect itself from dissolution. A standalone observer (ego) can only surrender to the illusionary reality it can see that is not the absolute truth. All surrenders are illusions or relative realities. Transcendence, merger, or dissolution of the ego into the absolute truth is the only way to experience it.

In summary, absolute truth is what exists at its own and is experience-able only via a total merger. A separated standalone observer (ego) can never describe or experience it absolutely.

………And, that is Holistic Relativity 101.

2. The Great Attractor:

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/GtAttractor.html

When a mass is compressed into smaller and smaller volume, Holistic Relativity predicts that at a certain critical minimum size the mass completely collapses due the increasing inward gravitational pull. The collapsed mass then exists as the concentrated gravitational energy confined within a point-like volume, also known as the Black Hole. The Great Attractor is nothing but a black hole that pulls on other objects of mass due to its intense gravitational force.

………And, that is Holistic Relativity 102.

Regards,

Avtar

Hello Avtar!

I would like to add something that cross my mind tonight.

I would like to bring a parallel way of saying what you are trying to explain with scientific terms. So I would like to share the inspirations coming from an amazing book:

Thich Nhat Hanh
Transformation at the Base...

Again, I would like to add:

Avtar, is really good to understand the base of human being with his scientific terms. I personally think he is reaching the mental-comprehension frontier... next to supramental.

Without any willing to interfer in Avtar teachings, do not worry if you have problems to understand some parts... Just follow your intuitions, on this path of finding ego-less reality.

Try
Try=and=sit
Try

Proclaim your right to your true-self.
Undress the shadows of your ego-fashion realities and see-self.

Avtar can help you a lot... Sit down and if you don't understand, ask him your simple questions. This topic is way beyond simple common ways of thinking

Who are you?...

Avtar,

Is there a supramental?...

Conscious awareness........

Black hole..........

The gap between thoughts.....

Breathing in, breathing out........

These are still words, but to me they are more :)

Mieke

Dear Avtar
I really enjoyed your response. I have read it a few times and I think I am starting to understand a bit.

The river and ocean analogy helped. Those moments when I am in my creative mode I sense the ocean, maybe even swim around a bit, but find myself back up stream when I come out of that state.
I can understand that to continue to swim further out into this ocean I would have to leave behind the comfortable reality of my river, Ego. Even the artistic process that brought me to this place.

Becoming and Being. River then Ocean. It's the transition I think that contains fear and excitement for me, when the river is dissolving into the ocean. Although when I am in that state of artistic awareness it seems very natural. I don't know how I would be able to interact with the rest of the world if I were to stay in that state. I can hardly acknowledge other people much less interact with them, although I am very aware of everything around me.
Once someone has left behind the river and is now the ocean, can they still play in the river without leaving the ocean completely? Can someone be the truth and still have lunch with old friends?

I hope I'm making sense to you Avtar. I am very drawn to understand you and the concepts you present. I have no formal education but when I hear you or other scientists speak, sparks of understanding flash in my head and I feel I can begin to grasp some of these concepts. When you write with just technical language I get lost quickly, but when you use both technical and nature I can follow better.

I have more questions and comments but I must get back to work for now and I will continue to contemplate you words.

with much respect

derek

Dear Avtar

To me, this has been the most interesting of your discussions so far.

Love
bonnie

#53 I really enjoyed your response, too, Derek.
You wrote:-

"I can understand that to continue to swim further out into this ocean I would have to leave behind the comfortable reality of my river, Ego. **Even the artistic process that brought me to this place.**"

I think you are really on to something there.

I wonder if Avtar agrees.

Hi Edmund!

dear Derek,
another 'way' to look at IT

like a turtle,
which comes out of its shell,
to partake of the world -
(at the park I often spot them late afternoon, munching on grass, or slowly heading back into the brush)

then the turtle
retreats within,
and can stay closed up for hours and hours

what do you think it's doing inside that shell?
sleeping :)

being its own true self ...
back to the One source,
IT is.

lots of love,
~ Kate

I really enjoyed your post Avtar and look forward to reading all the responses.

So that's probably why we are a shadow of the light, as our speed has decreased, so we are not yet as the pure light.

Now, one thing I cannot grasp is ... are you saying that a fully conscious observer can or cannot be in that pure light state with this physical body that we have?

I have many more questions, but I cannot precede from here at the moment as my thoughts are trying to understand. Such as, maybe a fully conscious person can maintain a physical body as needed, as well as running at the speed of light if they shift their focus without losing the body along with the trip? Or maybe they lose their body in light speed, but come back to it and recreate it from waves such as what Deepak says of the 'blinking in and out' of the body? Or maybe both cannot be done at the same time?

In short, do you think an enlightened being can move at the speed of light, as well as casting a shadow? I think Jesus did this before and after his physical death, so that kind of answers my question ... for me anyway, now that I've talked in circles.

Love, Char

Plus I was using Deepak's 7 steps of finding our soul's purpose over the weekend. BTW: I did not get too far, but at least I tried to answer the questions.

And I was wondering what happened to Deepak's guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, as I was thinking he must be pure consciousness now and I pondered upon what he was doing right now, if anything ... like maybe he is with God or one with God? I wonder if MM is helping anyone personally on the earth right now? But MM is probably doing something most grand or just enjoying God-consciousness?

Love, Char

hey derek

I am just now getting around to rereading everything. Wow! What you said in #53 was nice.

I sure don't have *The Answer*, but letting go of identifying with the ego as to "Who I Am" is a relief more than anything. Even so, it still goes on talking, laughing and 'having lunch with friends' :) Only now it's a *that* instead of me and makes that lunch and living more en(joy)able.

Love
bonnie

Great comments and thoughts, so I think some of my questions were answered and I really liked Avtar's HR 101.

It appears that only an enlightened being could answer all our questions. Like, if Jesus Christ was right in front of us, we could ask him what it's like to be pure light. Jesus says we are also that light, so it makes one wonder why we cannot see it? I guess that's where all our illusions come into play, i.e., it's like the illusion sees more of itself, when the light only sees itself - the light (or pure consciousness) or I suppose one could call it truth, as well.

So just maybe we do not really exist? But if so, why? (I'm a firm believer in questions, as it suits my state :')

Regardless, I think it's important to know the truth, so that all the suffering and wars/oppression/etc. that many, if not most experience will stop, as something is not right in the way things currently are in our combined consciousness, sick as it may be or dis-eased and dark - because there is only One. If everything was beautiful, then certainly, we shouldn't change a thing. In the Bible, Jesus says, "The truth will set you free." That's one of the most beautiful phrases that I can think of at the moment .... freedom, for which I (we?) do not have.

Surely an enlightened master is in the state moksha, but can s/he leave behind it's parts that are in prison? You know ... that compassion feeling kicks in. But again the light cannot see darkness, so maybe it's just me (us?) that need to let go of all the illusions of what is not real. Yep, easier said than done. Maybe we are justing enjoying the play of hide and seek, and as long as no one gets hurt it's ok, but it's not fun if one is in pain or perceives another's pain. But still the parts must long for unity, I would think?

.... just thinking out loud and sharing my 2 cents.

Love, Char

Dear Char,
The Pure light that is God and us will be there for you in Eternity. Its not like any light here, and its very hard to explain, but I can at least try and identify its characteristics, in an off beat way. I’m doing this because I feel its time to reveal all, and how are we ever going to bridge that gap between spirituality and science if we don’t tell all, and keep secrets. Are you ready, clear your mind, please believe me for this is the truth: It is a low level light, similar to a night light the keeps out complete darkness. But different, because you can see clearly, like a real high resolution, all the way to the end of this void (universe), without stars, forms, sounds, or feelings. A huge darkish, blackish, sphere with a light that brings a grayish tone that seems to illuminate the whole area evenly. That is the Still Light of Eternal Awareness or “God” the Almighty. I like the word Almighty, because its all of us together with God that lights up this Heavenly Place, which is void of attributes. Pure Light, Pure Space, Perfection, The Original Light Kurt

dear Harb,
the whole universe has been a part of my transformation!
I keep my eyes open to the glory ...
of the sunset this evening,
just so colorful, it's
breathtaking,
along
with a warm embrace,
oh yeah!
and I also see,
the mud underneath
the budding water lily
in my back yard pond.
:)
with love,
~ Kate

Dear Avatar,
Your reply is full of knowledge; but is knowledge truly that which is lacking? I see more and more knowledge in this world appearing, yet none that is truly useful, that which can be applied to everyday life and will bring about change. Is simplicity not perfect....already?

You see Char, the Truth will only set you free if you experience it yourself. I could talk the Truth until I’m blue in the face, but it turns to mud when the ego interprets it, and with the limiting words that are used to communicate it. Because the ego wants the knowledge to fit its concepts, which it has already acquired. If Jesus was born again but without the healing powers you wouldn’t recognize him, and he would just be spinning his wheels in the mud. You have to find the Truth yourself no one can do that for you, you have to search for yourself, and after tons of research and inner probing you will start to see him.

Hey guys, thanks for your responses.
I used to think of myself as an impartial observer. I have come to realize largely through my interaction here at IB that I have many pairs of glasses and filters that I look through. I have much to learn and unlearn.

derek

Hi derek,
you are special. thanks for all the questions and insights you bring to IB.
Love,
~ Kate

Kate, O Kate Kate...

Thanks Kurt...that's interesting - about the light; and I agree with you that each of us must find the truth within.

Love, Char

I am a part of Infinite Consciousness and thereby interconnected with all of creation.

I am meant to continually ask myself if I am making an effort to tune into the guidance of Infinite Mind. I am meant to have an awareness of the "Consciousness of the Heart" which operates on a higher level than does the consciousness of the brain. I am to know that the intellect by itself is like a software program which has been constructed by the dictates of society.

I am meant to realize that infinite love is the only truth and that all else is illusion.

"Betsy" S.

Mieke,

I appreciate very much your words about Conscious Awareness in posting No.6.

"The Silent Witnessing of one's thoughts...
I am only a spark of the Divine. Yet in a holistic way a spark can hold the complete truth of the Whole.

It shows me that truth can be found in anything and therefore it is called LOVE (List Of Virtually Everything:)"

You have stated an important truism here.

Thanks so much.

"Betsy" S.

This discussion can go on and on - i have tried to express my opinion in short.
I was going through an identity crisis some years ago when i 'found' myself through spirituality. Spirituality introduced me to a new world of peace and happiness. It had an answer to all my questions - a couple of questions that we all ask ourselves -
Who am I and Why am I here? I realised that I am not this body, but only a soul that resides in this body. I (the soul) have borrowed this body to reside in it for a period of time. When my time is up, I will leave this body and go back to the Supreme Soul where I belong.
We all are here for a purpose. Time will tell us what the purpose of our life is. I have discovered my purpose and am at peace. At the end of the day I feel happy and peaceful which in turn make me feel complete.
Interesting topic, this. Waiting to read the other parts as well...