Hmmm.. Sankalp - that first "imperfection" (choice) of the Consciousness. Good to hear that word again.

On another note - wanted to bring this issue in front of all of us - the looming Food Crisis and the linked Water Shortage crisis - all linked to the energy crisis as well. Wonder what you thoughts are on this?

http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=blog/food-crisis-and-water-shortage-looming-planet-anybody-bothered

Here is an interesting energy source - the human body:

http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=blog/next-energy-powerhouse-human-body

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Btw, the opposite of Sankalp is Nirvikalp - that is how the final state is called in Sanskrit - the Choiceless State.

desh

I wonder how we can refrain from choosing when the mind is busy at giving us choices with what to do and think about. Even in meditation one chooses to meditate and chooses to ignore the mind for the state of pure witnessing. Maybe, what your talking about is existing without the need to do or take credit for doing, which I call a doerless existence. This is more or less working at staying with the witness throughout your day, in the moment of an active meditation, and let life dictate your next move. Thus cheating the ego and mind out of their reward of accomplishing and being productive as an individual. Going with the flow as you say is a great technique, but the mind is always looking for a way to take the moment away from you, so you still have to choose to look away constantly. Only in the thoughtless witness state is one able to remain choiceless, Aware, and spontaneous, but it is difficult. A choice is made to work at it earnestly to get close to living in the moment despite the minds relentless activity. Choosing to redirect the dialogue or silencing the mind for witnessing moment is to deprive doership of the ego, and letting the flow of circumstances take you with it. Since, I think we are talking about the same thing, then the choiceless Awareness of the witness is a most noble goal for all paths of spirituality. ~Kurt~

# 2, # 3 ( Nirvikalpa ) Samadhi is a spontaneous state. It cannot be cultivated and it cannot be achieved by any means of yoga ( practice ). Everything up to the Dharana ( concentration ) and Dhyana ( meditation ) is possible with the application of the individual effort, but not the Samadhi state.

Though being the final part of Samyama ( the yogic ''trinity'' of Dharana~Dhyana~Samadhi ) Samadhi comes on its own accord. For it is beyond the faculties of vital and mental pranas which are responsible for the actualization of individual experience.

The attempts to control the mind to get into the Samadhi state equals to pacifying the surface of the Sea with the fishing net.

Jai Guru Dev

Dearest Deepak

Wonderful to hear from you and to see you again : ).
Choiceless awareness is always connected with the feeling of joy and bliss, contentment. There is that feeling of nowhere to go, nothing to do. I don't wanna go anywhere, it's just so beautiful. Then things happen without effort, they just flow. Even though i'm moving i'm standing still What is there to intend, everything is realized, what is there to prefer.

Hi Deepak,

Your timing of topic is just so amazing.

Yes we have discussed that a bit here. I am still deliberating if I actually do anything other than allow, wondering if making choices is just an illusion, I am simply a witness to the unfolding from this point of view giving the impression I am making the choices. For myself I just follow the impulses that come I don't know that I can ignore them.

Do we drink a glass of water because we choose to or because we became thirsty?

But anyway.

There is some new interesting phenomena just brought to light by scientists. Apparently 7 seconds before we consciously make a decision our brain already knows the decision, it is amazing, unconscious will.

You can click my name and read about it, a very interesting phenomena, observation raising some disturbing questions in the minds of scientists.

Here is an excerpt.

By scanning the brains of test subjects as they pressed one button or another – though not a computer mouse – researchers pinpointed a signal that divulged the decision about seven seconds before people ever realised their choice. The discovery has implications for mind-reading, and the nature of free will.

"Our decisions are predetermined unconsciously a long time before our consciousness kicks in," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, who led the study. It definitely throws our concept of free will into doubt, he adds.

Hi Igor,

I wasn’t talking about the Samadhi state, I was talking about being the pure witness, which is the state of thoughtless meditation before the Samadhi state is induced.

Meditation and spiritual contemplation are techniques which are used to pacify (control) the mind, so the Samadhi state can happen. An active mind negates or takes precedence over the witness and the Samadhi state making these pure states of being unachievable. Practice is to pursue spirituality earnestly and absolutely necessity if one wants self-realization. There is a lot of determination which is needed to create a silent mind, which makes one ripe for Samadhi and enlightenment. ~Kurt~

(WARNING: I am just rambling about a recent experience I had as I try to understand Deepak's video. So please feel free to pass on by :-), as this is my self therapy and just maybe someone like me might gain from it.)

Thank you Deepak, as I was wondering about addiction, as far as where it comes from and why it can be here one moment and not here another. I see that it is all about our intention and I can now see the steps, which makes perfect sense.

Personally, I find choice-less awareness unbearable at times, as I don't really understand it, especially if I feel that I need to do something about a situation. I suppose I don't have much faith about certain things, as I cannot always see before me. It's like, if I ignore something, it seems to get worse, but if I react as I am in the moment, then I worry if I did the right thing or over reacted - yes, that's an awareness issue again. I heard or read somewhere that as we get closer to enlightenment, our choice-less-ness improves and maybe that's what Deepak is talking about, i.e., when we just let it all happen, it's perfect.

Such as, last Friday, I was ready to quit my job and hit the streets. My temper was a furious show of anger to a superior and I did not know that I still had such a bad temper, which tends to be ignited when I feel trespassed upon, i.e., the poor victim situation that we make up in our minds.

I walked out before lunch on Friday and then called in sick and drank a lots of beer ... I was very sick in the head and seeing red, so it was the truth and I had a headache on top of tremendous stress from our quarter budget cycle that last 3 weeks with long hours and I could not get rid of this terrible back pain that developed that morning, as well as neck pains for weeks - no matter what pill I took!

Last week, my karma was so incredibly bad, that I even got a speeding ticket and I later realized I have 4 days to get my license renewed from today!

So I think if I had stayed home last Tuesday, when I woke up feeling horrible, I would not have gotten the speeding ticket, but I pushed myself because of budget deadlines, and I was already a mess to where it was so bad that the weekend could not heal my stress. And I would not have gotten in a fight with a superior and lots of other etcs. Therefore, choice-less awareness would have been to stay in bed on Tuesday and to call in sick and not push any more, even tho I came in late that morning as I just couldn't bear it.

On the flip-side, I would not have looked at my license expiration date if I had not have gotten a ticket, but this can't be the reason, as there must have been an easier way to know. I do remember the week before, one of the guys at work said he renewed his license in less than an hour, as there were no lines at the DMV in the morning - maybe that was the clue that I missed? Well, I do speed a lot, so it might have been my turn, but I think if my energy was not so bad, I would not have gotten a ticket and been so visible.

Anyway, when I came back to work this morning after the weekend, 1/3 of a really big and beautiful exotic plant had died! And one of my superiors commented on the plants condition, as I know he was thinking it was my bad energy and he was the one I lost it with when I got reprimanded by speaking up to the executive staff without talking to him first (but I told him I understood) - no one seems to pay me any attention and when I speak up and I get into trouble! Of course, I felt a little foolish, since I got so mad and lost it as I stated so before I left my superiors office.

I have been wondering why I let all of this stuff become so important again ... just don't know??? Maybe it's addiction?

Well, these are my long winded thoughts on the wisdom of choice-less-ness learned the hard way and I am sure it won't be the last either :-)

Anyway, it sounds like Deepak had a lovely choice-less vacation day before his speech tonight. When I have what I think are real choice-less days, it's on my weekend and I don't want to do anything, so I don't! ... for the most part. But I now Deepak meant something deeper.

Love, Char

This is what I heard over and over during the weekend ...

"WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP!"

:-)

Yes, I get caught up in the aspect of responsibility, where cause and effect manifest and the feedback mechanism that humankind have acquired, of late keeps me in perpetual motion:), I make spontaneous choices, it is the major choices that I get bogged down so much so it sometimes becomes stagnation…fear of making a bad choice, or if I do not know what to do - do nothing: )

Enjoyed listening to you on The Late Late – you were a hit with my friend is going to going to read ‘The 3rd Jesus’

http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/

Reading ‘Androcles & The Lion’ by George Bernard Shaw…his take on the gospels, thought provoking for sure, strange that he visited close to where I grew up, initialed a tree in Coole Park, Galway, and now I’m living as close to where he lived in Hertfordshire, UK, visited his old home last week, it all feels familiar is that by choice or coincidence? Or it just IS.

The "Wake up" reminder was from my Higher Self, as my lower self questioned why. I guess life would be easier if one were to 'wake up?' as I wonder what that would be like. But I don't think life on earth would be any fun anymore and we couldn't live in all our illusions. Then one's job would have to be to assist waking people up...that's a weird thought. Or would it? I don't know if we are suppose to play or what? I guess either is ok, as long as there is no pain while sleeping? I don't think one will be allowed to go back to sleep if they wake up fully....

Love, Char

Or maybe there would be better games to play that would suit the awakened and in that case, it's better to wake up ... just thinking out loud. Do the Awakened have fun????

Hi Char,

Do the Awakened have fun????

Yes, but they don’t pursue it or care about it. The bad and the good times are seen as temporary phenomena’s that have no bearing on the true reality, therefore unimportant. I have only one attraction left in my life, and that is to help others in their spiritual pursuits, or waking them up!

I think what he means by choiceness awareness is accepting the circumstances unconditionally without looking for a meaning or taking it to heart. Ugly stuff happens in the realm of duality, because it’s the inherent nature of existing in the world. Forgive it, them, and yourself and drop it by the wayside with the rest of the garbage. ~Kurt~

Does a bear sh-t in the woods?

Do you think it has a choice to do so elsewhere?

Perhaps, the bear knows and is aware of where

the woods end, and where the fun begins.

Char4, do you have fun when you're asleep? Are we supposed to?

Hello Char4! Just checking in. Bye, Keith

His choice of words are confusing to me as well, because choiceless Awareness can only happen in Absolute Space or Eternity. Life is about choices but we don’t have to accept doership of those choices, and that’s what I think he is talking about.

Well, this is the last post here, but I was doing a spell check as the word Engr. was questioned on my PC and the suggested word was "Angry." How bazzar is that?!? I think I must have a little issue here :-) I really thought I overcame my anger, which now surprises me that I might have only covered it up, as I try to hide it and sulked in negative energy?

Anyway, when I got mad with my superior and he became quiet, after I left and sat down at my desk, I heard from my Higher Self, "You were wrong." And of course, I got more upset with the idea of being wrong when I thought I was right. And I heard from my Higher Self that 'Temper is hell,' last week, but I did not really think it applied to me. Maybe I just lost it once and this was a warning about what was going to happen. Sorry, as I don't mean to go on and on, but I am shocked to find out that I still have a temper, as it was really bad in my early 20's and I thought I got rid of it.

Oh, forgive me, as I have another little story... I just remembered a story that no one will believe that happened to me when I was about 22 years old. I was fighting with my now 2nd ex-husband as we always did, since he felt he could tell me what to do and if I did not do as he said, he hit me, which was too much and too often. Anyway, I eventually became so angry, I blacked out for a second (like time was lost to both of us or we automatically blinked into a different situation with things changed around, such as we were in a dark closet, but still in the bedroom) and then the next thing I know, I am above a 6 foot man (I'm 5"5') and my voice changed as I spoke, so I stopped mid sentence. It frightened me so very much, I promised myself that I would never get that angry again or at the very least show uncontrollable anger. Of course, my ex and I stopped dead in our tracks and then I (or we) blacked out again (more like a time warp and the event was over) as I was standing on the ground again. What I heard when above my ex was, "Now you can kill him." And I said silently, "NO!" That was it and it was over. I asked my ex to tell me what happen, so I could compare notes, as I would not have believed him if I told him first. It's more of a sanity check as I have had many experiences during my life time that can be classified as odd, so I usually just ignore them and don't talk about it. My ex recounted the basics that I was above him and my eyes turned red as well as him hearing my voice change. It was a very short and brief confirmation and we parted and when about our business as usual. It was just too strange and I think we both wanted to forget it ever happened as it just did not make any sense.

I still don't understand this experience ... like was it me or some demon that was feeding off my anger or our bad energy? If what Deepak talks about is real about all this being consciousness, then I guess it was me as I pulled some really negative energy to me. I guess??? BTW: That plant that lost a third of itself is right in front of me. And after the argument with my superior, he ran hot water over his foot as he meekly said, 'ouch.'

I guess I was bad? I don't think anger is a good thing. So I guess an enlightened being would not have anger as the Dali Lama (I think it was him) shared a story of a monk that he knew from the past who was at a lower level. The Dali Lama now knew that the monk was enlightened when he asked how he felt about all the oppression he had suffered and how he managed to handled it all, when the monk responded that it was 'ok,' as I managed not to get angry and I thought I was going fail a few times, as the monk felt that this would have been the worst thing to do to in reaction to another's trespasses.

Love, Char

Thanks guys ... yes, that's what I think Deepak means ... like the Observer (Higher Self) watching the observed (lower self & all), including one's own self doing and acting while the Self watches the self.

I guess I meant by fun, there would really be no more games or illusions ... right? And one would desire to help others. But again, it must be hilarious for an enlightened being watching a sleep walker, so maybe that's where the fun comes in as the Observer watches the observed and/or other. In that sense, the Observer would also be the One that can see all of it's parts, like the Head of the One Body, as the Head helps the rest of itself. I think that the Observer must want us all to wake up? Maybe? Or just some? Then, the Observer would be free to do something else or play another game. Maybe the Observer is ready to move on? I don't know ... just thinking out loud, as I let my thoughts fly.

Love, Char

PS: I hope my above shared story about anger doesn't freak someone out. If so, I'm sorry in advance.

BTW: I enjoy sleeping when I don't have nightmares or dreams that I cannot control or dreams that I don't like. That's when I either wake up or change the dream to something better. I had nightmares about work last night and could only sleep with a few over-the-counter sleeping pills. Some of it, I am sure is due to the allergy meds that I take which is a upper, so I try not to take them close to bed time.

Char, right, but hilarious, I guess so in some cases, mostly it’s rather sad and self-destructive, so he wants to help.

I'm a lucid dreamer as well, and if anything weird happens, I become aware that I am dreaming and change it or resort to flying, my favorite thing to do.

Dear Kurt,

Thank you for replying, mine wasn't a criticism of your views,
just a comment to follow the theme.

I agree, one should anticipate Samadhi on the meditation mat not on the tennis court. Determination and a discipline is also needed to get to that mat in the first place. But than, ( that's where I beg to differ ), the effort and the determination is best left behind, if one is to experience silence within.

If you don't mind I'm happy to elaborate further on the theme for your contemplation, consideration on what Samadhi and Mediation is with utmost respect to your own understanding.

Samadhi cannot be induced, by any means what-so-ever, and no amount of meditation or concentration can bring about that state. Why ? Simply because that state is already there as the supporting state of all other states.

Samadhi does not come, because it never went anywhere.

Samadhi is the only true state out of which all other sates are being issued.

In the Yoga tradition, from Patanjali to Shiva Sutras it is said that ( skillful ) yogi slips into Samadhi as if it were his own. Skillful here meaning the one who knows the skill of least action and the skill of least effort.

In our Tradition of Meditation ( TM-Sidhi ), we do not apply effort what-so-ever. We just let go and the mind slides into the state of inner repose. In fact any attempts to control the mind is futile for the mind is constantly wavering.

Trying to control it is like trying to control the wind. Because the domain of mind is prana and ether. In moves in space with the speed of thought ! The best way to ''control'' the mind is to restrain the breath. For when the metabolic rate slows down in mediation it brings about the gradual slowing down in breathing.

Since there is a direct connection between the breath and the mind, it means that when one is subsiding the other quietens down on its own. Generally in Hatha Yoga we use vital breath to ''keep'' the mind still and in Raja Yoga we use the mind to subside the breath.

Not just Samadhi, but Meditation proper is also an entirely spontaneous activity and in the TM technique there is a saying:

''We don't meditate ~ we just sit down and meditation happens on its own ''. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

Basically, it is because the mind is by nature is pure Sattva, it likes nothing more than to abide in the equilibrium of its own nature. What over-activates and what makes the mind dull is Raja and Tama gunas respectively.

The question may arise what makes mind subject to the over-activity and dulness, if it's nature pure Sattva ? The answer to that is: the accumulation of the latent tendencies
which arrests the mind in rajasic and tamasic qualities of Nature. That's where I agree with you, the maximum amount of effort needed to pull the mind, first out of the domain of tama-guna and than to overcome the overheating quality of raja-guna.

************

The great secret ( about the nature of mind ) in Kashmir Shaiva tradition is expressed in the following aphorism:

atma cittam ~ The mind is the Self. ( Shiva Sutra 3/1 )

The Mind is the intermediate instrument of consciousness its faculty is to unite the experiencer with the object of experience, supplied by the senses. It is to the soul as (the lens of) an eye to the body.

In its extroverted state (the mind) it is known as Samkalpa, when the mind is introverted it is the state of Nirvikalpa.

Allegorically it is the opening and closing of the eye of perception, mind is that eye which sees but cannot see itself. And for that reason one feels that one is ''stack in one's own mind''. Yet that is only a misconception of what takes place in actuality of one's experience.

Recognition ( realization ) of one's own mind as being nothing short of Consciousness is the direct way out of the ''mind-trap'' and the best way to rehabilitation of one's true nature.

Speaking of practice, one need to allow the mind wonder on its own accord, just by giving the body rest in the relaxed asana ( posture ) and meditation will take place on its own as a matter of course.

Just one additional note, on the quality of one's meditational practice. Mind is greatly affected by what we put in. Both the nourishment for the body in the form of food & the impressions with which we feed the mind. That's where the path of Yoga and Ayurveda cross and intertwine intimately.

Jai Guru Dev

igor

( # 6, 7)

P. S. Also the above neatly brings us to the current theme and what Richard Thomas shared. The free will is a very much ''western'' concept fostered by the greek thought in the age after Socrates, there were attempts to reconcile the idea of the free will in the works of existentialists ( Kierkegard, Schopenhauer, etc. ), and later never went further than determinism.

According to the Indian thought which is in tune with all major ( undiluted and unaltered ) religious teachings, Judaism, Christianity, Islam there is only one will ~ the Will of God. The Choiceless Awareness.

Thanks Igor! That was a great post and very beneficial to me. I don't relate to all the terminology as it is still like a foreign language to me, but I get the concept.

Love, Char

Hi Igor,

“If you don't mind I'm happy to elaborate further”

No, not at all. I appreciate your views and education on the subject, and I think we are close to being on the same page. I like talking about this stuff and I would like to get you contemplating for yourself instead of quoting scripture. I talk from experience after my own self-realization, and I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m over bearing, it’s not my intent, it just comes from confidence.

“Samadhi cannot be induced, by any means what-so-ever, and no amount of meditation or concentration can bring about that state. Why ? Simply because that state is already there as the supporting state of all other states.”

You have to look away from the other states in order to uncover the Samadhi state and that takes a lot of effort, because the mind is the road block to self-realization. To continually work at it, sets the foundation for the Samadhi state to happen, so one can slip into it. That’s what I mean by induce, to set the conditions right in order to persuade it to happen and eventually it does. One must have a close and intimate relationship with the Samadhi state before one can get past the mind and world.

“Samadhi does not come, because it never went anywhere.
Samadhi is the only true state out of which all other sates are being issued.
In the Yoga tradition, from Patanjali to Shiva Sutras it is said that ( skillful ) yogi slips into Samadhi as if it were his own. Skillful here meaning the one who knows the skill of least action and the skill of least effort.”

In order for it to be effortless you first have to put a lot of time in until it becomes second nature. To have a skill at something is to work tirelessly at something, until you don’t have to think about it anymore and it happens naturally.

“In our Tradition of Meditation ( TM-Sidhi ), we do not apply effort what-so-ever. We just let go and the mind slides into the state of inner repose. In fact any attempts to control the mind is futile for the mind is constantly wavering. Trying to control it is like trying to control the wind. Because the domain of mind is prana and ether. In moves in space with the speed of thought ! The best way to ''control'' the mind is to restrain the breath. For when the metabolic rate slows down in mediation it brings about the gradual slowing down in breathing.”

The mind is wavering and that’s why you chant a mantra to pacify (control) the mind with a decoy, and that is not easy and takes effort, with the mind controlling every event like it does. There are different meditation techniques, which are subtle tricks in controlling the over active mind by giving it a pacifier to hold on too, until it subsides. I looked away from everything that moves including the breath, because you have to go beyond it as well as the present moment if your hanging onto it. Any decoys such as the breath, mantras, mind, body, kundalini and consciousness, are distractions on the path and you have to drop them eventually if you want to go beyond. You just can’t use the mind and breath and expect them to take you beyond the mind and breath, it just doesn’t work, but it’s a great starting point.

The mind is the Self. ( Shiva Sutra 3/1 )

That there is totally and absolutely false. The mind is movement and the Soul (Self) is the stillness without the use of the mind and ego. One is in duality and must bow to the forces of duality and the other is a singularity, which duality must bow to. To the serious aspirant the mind should be viewed as the foe, an accident that got out of control. It dominates your life and until it is cycled down to silence, it is our biggest obstacle. All the meditations and spiritual contemplations are designed to control the mind, giving you a chance to see past it. Even to the Sage the mind is an unwanted guest. This phrase maybe out of context, because the mind can become an clear instrument of the Soul after realization. But, to get close to God and the Self, the mind becomes the main problem.

“Speaking of practice, one need to allow the mind wonder on its own accord, just by giving the body rest in the relaxed asana ( posture ) and meditation will take place on its own as a matter of course.”

Letting the mind wonder on its own you will never find self-realization. The mind will never let go of its control on its own, you have to get acquainted with the pure witness state to give Samadhi a chance to happen. Its very important to understand the invisible guidelines on the spiritual path, because anything perceivable is a distraction and takes you away from your self. Posture is not necessary, its basically for the back and beginner kundalini yoga, I realized myself out of the classic posture, and So did Ramana.

Just one additional note, on the quality of one's meditational practice. Mind is greatly affected by what we put in. Both the nourishment for the body in the form of food & the impressions with which we feed the mind. That's where the path of Yoga and Ayurveda cross and intertwine intimately.

The diet doesn’t matter and it is not a high priority, what is, is the diet you put the mind on, through thoughtless meditation and spiritual contemplation. I didn’t give it an important stance, because I knew I had to abandon my life and body to find realization. What does it matter what the body feeds on when you have to leave it behind anyways. If its important to you, then by all means, but I found out as long as it doesn’t create pain it doesn’t get in the way. My teacher was malnourish during his realization. Sorry if I attack your concepts too much, and thank you for giving me something to do. ~Kurt~

Hey Igor, One more thing, if you don’t mind, tell me what your thinking after reading this.
Are we close? Or far apart?

# 22, Thank you Char,

Glad to know it resonates with you. Don't worry if not knowing the sanskrit terminology, and if you need translations into english I am happy to do it.

Sanskrit, is the only ancient language which survived into the modern age, the scholars say it is because sanskrit is the language of nature. Sanskrit literally means ~ ''that which allows the light pass through''.

The reason many sanskrit words are left baring their original form rather than being translated is because there are no adequate words in most languages to give its true meaning. For example, the word Prana is often translated as vital force, breath, subtle energy etc, yet all those translations are only approximations of much more precise meaning of the word Prana.

Also, sounds and words in sanskrit are directly related to the aspect they denote: when one says or writes the word prana one is literally activates that aspect in himself. Because the 52 letters of sanskrit alphabet are born of the original sound of the matrix, and being ''recorded'' down by the ancient seers. Consonants and vowels are the different aspect of ( Shakti) Primordial Energy out of which all matter is being formed. Thence the saying:

Form in its essence is sound condensed as matter.

I know you are devoted Christian, and it should make sense to your background, otherwise it will always sound too foreign. Suffice to say that the same correlation existed in christianity in earlier centuries through the use of latin in a very complex science of liturgy, which meant to propitiate cosmos. Latin came from ancient greek and the later was the result of assimilation of the sanskrit brought into Europe by transs-migratinal waves of Arian people
( who spoke sanskrit ).

With time both ancient greek and latin withered away, only to become the property of the libraries and the academies. This in itself is one of the reasons why Christianity lost its basis in transcendence, by loosing the mother tongue of its sacred speech. Christianity has had its own mantras just like Hinduism.

The vitality of sanskrit is in its connectedness to Vedas, different branches of vedic disciplines, it practically did not change in the course of five thousand years ( scholars differ on the time scale when it comes to Indian, Vedic History ).

My current job is teaching the History of Art and Religions, and I am always amazed how similar all major religions are in their essence, especially when it comes to the esoteric aspect of their doctrines.

For example in Islam there is the same emphasis on the importance of breathing and the muslim prayer in its essence is the sister of the Upanishadic mantra with the aim of balancing the breath thus balancing the vital airs (pranas) in the body, which naturally promotes the state of transcendence.

With Love

Jai Guru Dev

OOdles of respect for your erudition, Igor but let me lower the tone to the simple man in the streets and the countryside. They are a vast majority, you will agree.

You write ;-

"For example in Islam there is the same emphasis on the importance of breathing"

Someone should tell that to a suicide bomber.

# 23, 24, Dear Kurt thank you for a detailed approach in your reply to my last respond.

Since you declare to be self-realized it shouldn't matter to you too much what I am going to say. For the one who claims to be in the sate of Svatantra (free state, independent of other's opinions ) would not be affected.

However, ours is a public exchange and for the sake of others, who might be far from the state of being realized, I feel its important to speak from the level of consciousness of the general reader.

Besides there are might be some newcomers or beginners who would be easily mislead by your views. For forgive me, yet despite your apparent condition your thinking is full of contradiction & inconsistency.

Anyway, ignore this as you may, but the following topics are very important if only for the sake of those who will benefit from it:

~ Doubting the validity of the scriptures is the sign of the improper understanding. Indian civilization recognizes two forms of scriptural knowledge: the shrutis and the smritis.

The shrutis ( sansk. ~ that which been heard ) are revealed scriptures; revealed to those who have been pure enough to receive them ( whose nervous system and the heart was pure enough to bare the impact of the higher states of consciousness ). For instance, the Vedas and the Upanishads are shrutis.

The smritis (sansk. ~ that which been remembered) are the ancient works which have been memorized since the time immemorial. Puranas are smritis.

The Shiva~Sutra belongs to the Shrutis, and was revealed to Sage Vasugupta by Shiva. This scripture initiated the synthesis of Indian thought climaxed by the great Abhinavagupta. Your criticism of the validity of its aphorism on the nature of the mind cannot be taken seriously. ( I can only smile at your blind arrogance ).

~ Furthermore, I don't wish to repeat myself on the same subject, of what has been dealt in my post
# 21, except for the most important factor ( again dismissed by Kurt as irrelevant ), the influence of the food we eat and the impressions we take in.

Absolutely everything in Nature consists of the minute combination of the three primordial energies of Sattva ( equilibrium, light, balance ), Rajas ( motion, kinetic energy, desire, force ) and Tamas ( inertia, static energy, dulness, ignorance ). This energies are when in balance do not obstruct the Witness from the experience of Bliss, yet when they do there is the agony of existence as we know it. Every being needs to take care, balancing these energies and since the food we take in to sustain our bodies and mind, is also a combination of those energies it will either increase or decrease a certain quality bringing in balance or creating a havoc in the body.

The food we eat, once properly digested, goes on to make up the particles of our brian, colouring it with the specific quality ingested in the first place. Even the realized one should avoid the food which might provoke the dissbalance, because the realized one knows like no other, that the body is the support of Consciousness. If the body is abused or mistreated it will rebel with the sickness and disease, and since there is no self-realization without the body one's attitude towards one's own body should be of mother to child.

All those I-don't-care, let-this-body-drop-away kind of attitudes are only needed at the very beginning, to create a sense of detachment in the one who is totally engrossed in the material world. Most readers of the IB are people already on the path and in need of a very different approach which is holistic in its essence.

Ayurveda is a sister science of Yoga and for a serious practitioner is of more value than any of the cowboy attitudes of getting realized fast-n-easy, it teaches how to create balance in the body for the blissful living, instead of rejecting or suppressing bodily needs.

Ayurveda is rooted in the same philosophy as Yoga, and recognizes that the body-mind-soul conglomerate is composed of the combination of the five elements,
their mixture goes on to make up the doshas or the bodily humors. Every taste in the mouth, every scent we inhale, every colour we see either harmonizes with our unique psycho-physiological setup or creates disharmony.

For the meditator the food being of primordial importance, because it builds the Ojas ( physiological essence of consciousness ) which is the fuel needed to transform consciousness on the molecular level.

Food for thought ? It's alright Kurt, I perfectly understand you, we've been there before, and even tried to live on prana alone, (well was more like on milk alone). Trust me realization is the process not fixed in time. Make sure your body with the Nervous System would make it to withstand the full expansion of your consciousness.

With Love

Jai Guru Dev

igor

# 26, Ed, your sense of humor is greatly appreciated too !

Don't forget Britain has been my second home for the past 18 years. Which of the Queen's county are you in ? We, myself and by english wife may pay you a visit this coming summer... for a cuppa ?

By the way, you've suggested to house the IB seminar in UK. Smashing ! You are invited to Uzbekistan anytime for such hospitality.

Yes, I know what you mean. That's perhaps why I'm spending more time in my home country which as you know predominantly muslim... so that they breath deeper,
into the heart. When people do there'll be no need for suicide bombers.

Dear Igor,

Do you have to resort to brow beating to get your point across.

Just because I’m realized doesn’t mean I can’t correct you, besides you shouldn’t put it out there if you don‘t want it critiqued. It seems like your knowledge in this area is very good, but lacking in personal experience. I am your opposite, my experience is knowledge, and I rarely bring in borrowed knowledge from someone else’s experiences. This is what you’re calling arrogance, I went out and did it, you talk of others who did it, and that’s what a lot of teachers do for a living. And now, you ran into someone who is challenging your stack of goods, so you feel threatened. All this talk is a good thing and need not be scary, because by feeding off of one another we get new ideas and leave old ones behind.

“Even the realized one should avoid the food which might provoke the dissbalance, because the realized one knows like no other, that the body is the support of Consciousness.”

We are in agreement here, keep the body healthy, so it doesn’t cry out with pain, if you can help it, if not, it still doesn’t get in the way, unless the mind hangs onto it. What I was referring to earlier is the strict vegetarian diets, cleansings, supplements and stuff like that.

“If the body is abused or mistreated it will rebel with the sickness and disease, and since there is no self-realization without the body one's attitude towards one's own body should be of mother to child.”

Without the body there is no thought of self-realization, because you already are that. The body need not be healthy to realize yourself, to say it does, is to cut off about 50% of the world population. It’s not a factor for the serious seeker, if it is, you’re caught up in personal chains, and have to change your inner dialogue.

“All those I-don't-care, let-this-body-drop-away kind of attitudes are only needed at the very beginning, to create a sense of detachment in the one who is totally engrossed in the material world. Most readers of the IB are people already on the path and in need of a very different approach which is holistic in its essence.”

If you are not realized you are still attached to the world, and your concepts and experiences that make up the ego are still intact. I hold up the mirror to what your hanging onto in order to help you, to baby you doesn’t help you, but enforces your chains.

Food for thought ? It's alright Kurt, I perfectly understand you, we've been there before, and even tried to live on prana alone, (well was more like on milk alone).

I don’t know what you mean here? I never deprived myself of food and never will.

“Trust me realization is the process not fixed in time. Make sure your body with the Nervous System would make it to withstand the full expansion of your consciousness.”

Consciousness doesn’t need to expand, to be enlightened is to leave consciousness behind with the body and mind. Those attributes are comprised of energy which is duality of the positive and the negative, and you can’t take duality with you if you want Eternity. Again to say the body needs to be in top working order to be realize the truth is a misnomer.

Regards, ~Kurt~

Cross out the word "be" before realize in the last sentence.

Dear Kurt

I hope my reply wasn't a brow beating. If it felt like it, please forgive me. Yeh, perhaps a little smacky, but not on the face and not bellow the belt, after all my first mentor was a legendary martial artist. The code of the warrior is well known to me, even if the keyboard be a sword.

But seriously where does all this softness come from in a self-reilized ? Besides I've explained the reason for directness, why should you feel being beaten or threaten ? Please don't contradict yourself, or it casts a doubt on your experience of knowing the Self directly.

You've misread me, although your level of intuition should have helped to recognize the knower of Reality. I guess you've also missed my earlier dialogue with Simon and soon after with Mieke, where I've shared my own direct experience of Unity in the aftermath of the Sidhi Program in 2001, when Kundalni shoot up and culminating in burst of individual consciousness 2 years after.

Mieke and I have shared very personal experiences via email since than, because certain experiences I couldn't share on the IB for some readers might find them to be disturbing.

With Simon we had a very beautiful and stimulating exchange, on the theme of realization. I was moved by Simon's honesty in admitting that he isn't ready just yet for that final last move. Although I must say his understanding is profound and backed by personal experiences palpably.

It's funny you should write as if I feel threatened. You know to tell you the truth, even years before the impact I've stopped being threatened by anything. You don't know anything about me, and about my life and what I went through, yet judge with so much conviction. You could have clicked on the name to read my biography, before passing the statements.

To tell you the truth you defending yourself, yet there is no need, I have no desire of challenging you. I've made it clear, my previous respond to your post was for the others.

Kurt, we shall always speak from the level of awareness of those who read or hear. Hitting someone with the truth on the head is of no use. With realization comes responsibility.

With Love to you sweet brother,

igor

Watching one’s self chat with each other a question comes to mind.

If I realized who I really was would I bother to chat? There would be no purpose lest I forgot who I was, for the moment.

Who is it that plays both sides of a dialog?

One engaged in the game of make believe?

How does one make believe it is many?

A game, a dialog, is not possible without at least a miniscule of ego; the art is shifting back and forth, between knowing one and being many, to maintain a balanced perspective, perhaps? Lest we become ego disadvantaged?

It could make for a great drama and those with insider knowledge a divine comedy.

~Infinite Play

Dear Igor and Richard,

“But seriously where does all this softness come from in a self-reilized ? Besides I've explained the reason for directness, why should you feel being beaten or threaten ? Please don't contradict yourself, or it casts a doubt on your experience of knowing the Self directly.”

Just trying to calm the warrior in you, and it is completely unnecessary to name call, and I say this to help you in your social dialogue with others. Its good to show respect, then people remain open and an exchange of ideas can happen without people slamming the door on you. Again, I held the mirror up for the benefit of others, I will always have the big picture guiding me, and look for no personal gains.

“you've misread me, although your level of intuition should have helped to recognize the knower of Reality.”

It is so hard to get a grasp of peoples motives when they are blogging, and I will make a lot more mistakes then I will talking to you in person.

“when Kundalni shoot up and culminating in burst of individual consciousness 2 years after.”

That experience is common on the spiritual path, my Kundalini has been active since the early eighties after my teacher raised it with his touch. My brain has been alive with Kundalini electricity for 25 years prior to my self-realization.

“to tell you the truth you defending yourself, yet there is no need, I have no desire of challenging you. I've made it clear, my previous respond to your post was for the others.
Kurt, we shall always speak from the level of awareness of those who read or hear. Hitting someone with the truth on the head is of no use. With realization comes responsibility.”

You guys, this IB site is all about challenging one another and that’s what life about, we all get better in the process. I have a big and high responsibility towards the truth and no one, not even the old Kurt, can get in the way. You don’t help anyone by withholding it, I’ve never known a guru who held back the truth so that false illusions prosper. And, I can’t either, especially with all the falsehoods out there. The old Kurt let his walking to the talking and remained silent and reserved, and now my talking has to do the walking, which is a complete turn around for me. I will make mistakes and you can tell from my lack of writing prowess.

"If I realized who I really was would I bother to chat? There would be no purpose lest I forgot who I was, for the moment."

Yes you would, a realized person loves to help and teach, to clear up the false information and replace it with the truth. In a off beat way you are hitting on something, which is the realized teacher prefers spiritual talk, conversations on God. On politics, small talk and worldly knowledge they have little interest, but do it anyways because being social is a part of life. Again, a realized Soul holds the mirror up to show you what’s in the way, which is preventing you from realizing yourself.

Thanks guys, I get a kick out of this stuff, I have no one to talk to about spirituality and if you don’t mind lets keep it going.

Your blogging buddy, Kurt

Kurt bears an eerie resemblance to Todd(L7).

Do you guys know each other? And Igor sounds like Harb.

My one third eye smells a rat!

Hey Keith,

I only know you guys through the intent continuum.

In the continuum rats hide in dark places.
In the continuum rats find it hard to hide.
In the continuum the good light displaces the rats.
In the continuum only the good and strong survive.
In the continuum we glide on the wings of hope.
In the continuum the truth is our ride to freedom.
In the continuum the rats try to hold us down.
In the continuum will have to do it despite the rats.
In the continuum the rats are a part of us that we leave behind.
In the continuum we find out what we are Eternity in disguise.
In the continuum disguised as rats we shed our skin for truth and hope.

Keith, look what you started. E.T. looks for home.

Everything around him points to the way home.
Everything he does gives him a reason to go home.
Everything he says his interest dies and sends him home.
Everything he hears he longs for a voice to call him home.
Everything he touches he will surrender to touch home.
Everything that happens to him sends him searching for home.
Everything is worth nothing when he longs for home.
Everything becomes nothing and nothing becomes Everything.
~He’s Home~.

The aspirant

Got the title to #35

R.A.T.S.

Reality Attitude Time and Space