Dear Deepak

A great article!

(The Pope seems to be trying to bridge the two worlds on the pedophilia issue, by implying that pedophile Catholic priests may be banned from the Catholic church in the future. This is the first time he's taken this stance publicly -- http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/nationalspecial2/16pope.html )

love, h

Dear Dr. Chopra,

You have made an important statement. People are awakening to the insufficient explanations provided to them by the "so-called leaders of society". The controllers are being questioned more and more. People are disappointed in the devious practices of politicians, bankers, media moguls, commercial institutions, and religious leaders.

We are now questioning the explanations given us which are meant to stifle our curiosity and to prevent our ability to counteract the misinformation.

Let us not forget that it was the Roman Empire that created the Roman Church. These were the same people responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. People are hungry for truth and for leaders who have integrity. The era of ignorance and blind adherence to programmed information is beginning to crumble.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.

There is a middle way and the two worlds dance around it. Everyone is harmed by sexuality, including celibacy, its spawn-child. Everyone dies.

Here's my take...

If one commits a crime of the land and it is against the laws of the land, they need to be punished as everyone else. There are no exceptions.

Law was made for the blind and ignorant, i.e., the ungodly, for Spirit is the Law, as those who are godly and close to Spirit will not break the laws.

So what does that say?

Love, Char

BTW: If the laws are wrong, then they need to be revised.

"The tragedy is that the mystery of the two worlds affects us all, and the Church has become too tainted by scandal to offer answers that might satisfy a new generation of seekers."

Maybe the people prefer to live in a secular world where their are no moral or ethical demands required, where govt becomes the nanny and eventually it becomes too difficult to live a shining life of virtue in freedom. Eventually the seeker needs to settle down and live his/her sought values.

The Pope has his work cut out for him. I wish him well as he is a serious man. So rare to find these days.

Steve

"The Pope sits on a throne that belongs to Jesus when he returns, and this symbolizes a duty to care for the Kingdom of God here on earth. " ~Deepak

I didn't know that.

You know what Jesus would probably say, “the Church has assets worth many billions, and there many living in poverty, what is wrong with this picture?”

Perhaps the Church should be helping them to plant Amaranth, provide potable water and sustainable extreme weather housing and a channel through which every one can contribute and create value in the economic system. Further more it would not be silent in support the few that usurp the wealth of the many.

I doubt you would find Jesus or any character like him sitting on a physical throne, he would be ruling From the Air in a way most would not understand, not by force but by gravity, you might not even know he was there working behind the scenes, which with the Internet could be everywhere and anywhere. The last thing he would want to become is a public spectacle. Rather he would point you to a mirror, to see your own divinity.

I also seriously doubt he would be involved with any organization that repressed the feminine rather he would be mounting the goddess on the throne.

I think the Church, which no doubt played a divine role as everything does, there are no other types of roles, would be rather disappointed unless it’s leadership evolved rather quickly. I also suspect that role that served the old consciousness is no longer fitting for the new consciousness.

The truth is the authority, not some men fabricating fictions, illusionary frameworks or claiming a monopoly on the Divine, and you don’t need to believe the truth; once exposed to the awareness, it simply becomes self evident, creating a knowing from direct experience. In other words if you are really speaking for the divine there is no need for a declaration, claim, or validation with name, you will know the source of the words, your heart will validate them. The words from the divine produce love, the words from the ego produce fear. Not to be confused with words of caution and solution that implore change meaning there is nothing to fear, except a rough ride if one resists evolution.

The divine does not speak of scarcity and sacrifice; it speaks rather of abundance for all.

In a world of truth there is nothing to fear; in a world of fiction they fear the truth.
~Infinite Play

Shame, guilt, and sexual repression pervert the expression of the life force creating conflict. If guilt and shame is a powerful manipulator, and a method to destroy self esteem; what better than to make the expression of the most powerful force a sin. Such that none could resist it, guaranteeing repeat business selling salvation. Yes, sex as a sin is profitable when one has for sale the remedy to relieve the guilt, and those that would be the only channel would have a monopoly. Celibacy should not be a dictate but a natural result of a certain level of consciousness, and choice.

I once had a close friend that was an Archdiocese auditor; I didn’t think they treated her very well. I did gain some interesting insight though.

In Infinite Play the movie there is this Church that was found to have done cemetery stacking. This is where a long (hopefully) forgotten, deceased person loses their headstone and has another casket buried over top and a new headstone of the new person occupies the space. I hear it is a common form of conservancy. From a divine perspective there isn’t any thing wrong with it except it isn’t really an honest thing to do. How do you bury 200 people in a lot with 150 plots?

Of course that is nothing compared to when they plotted with textile manufacturers to make nudity profane requiring clothes to be worn by everyone so they could increase their sales. Of course those that did not keep physically fit liked this notion because they always stood out being fully clothed; while others with fit bodies ran around barely clad. At least we might suppose that happened, makes for a better story.

But hey that is just a movie, where some good stuff for journalists comes out every once and a while.

# 6, 7 I must admit I admire Richard's eloquent expositions, while sharing similar belief that ours is the age when Absolute does not need to incarnate as a particular individual.

As Richard pointed out to the issue of the Christ's second coming, I had a discussion with the audience on the subject of classical Hindu vision of Vishnu's Avatara ( incarnations ). With the Buddha being the last and the final 10th being expected any minute. While some hold that Kalki Avatar is already here, even naming a certain teacher, I've shared my own vision/understanding that this time around the actual descend taking place on the cellular level, moreover on a collective scale. At first there would still be a need for those on whose points that descend would rests for a while, until the critical mass is reached to create a radical shift on the collective level.

You may call me dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Perhaps my vision is being influenced by the writings of Sri Aurobindo Gosh earlier, and later by my Teacher's Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' plane exposition of the coming of a new era in awakening, when self-realization would be on the group level instead of individual one. Or as Aurobindo stated: ''The 20th century is the century of individual awakening, yet the 21st century would be the century of mass awakening.''

Yes, I agree, Igor. I was just reading that a bodhisatva, in this world or the astral world, can send out telepathic gift waves that benefit humans and that in Christianity this is called Grace. So there may be no need for a celebrity avatar. The bodhisatvas's mere presence or by their will provides the growth benefit; meaning God is the initiater.
The head of my guru's foundation, and I hesitate to use her name lest my folly spill over on her, has said that God is the Doer. I never ever forget that. Never ever ever.
So the reason for all our monks and nuns and yogis provides a great benefit. They're working it. Yours,

Don't know if I made much sense above, Igor, but the fact that you are singing is another puzzlement.
I went to see Ram Dass lecture in Burlington, Vt in maybe 1987 or so. I said to the guy seated next to me that everyone in the audience looked like my brother. He said everyone was my brother.
I meant they did look like my brother. He meant they were my brothers. Open Thread gets that way. Totally weird. A zen exercise.
Have a good day.

#8"The 20th century is the century of individual awakening, yet the 21st century would be the century of mass awakening."

Gosh, what an orgiastic blood-letting that will be, compared to Roman Catholic Mass?

#10 - that would mean the end of all organized religion. SO I doubt that. We have too sophisticated a system for people with great ideas to patent them - so free and open distribution is not possible now.

Unless the sponsorship of ideas by those articulating them ends... mass awakening is a pipe dream.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Dear Desh,
I didn't say it; I didn't do it; it wasn't me.

I'm thinking more like, if you view the early 1900's with the ladies' long skirts and the horse and buggy being jostled by a model T; and then you look at kids walking down the sidewalk of today with cell phones, earphones and roller blades on their feet, then that to me is how fast and unknowingly things can change.

Waking up from night tenderness
With long moments rolling inside myself
Thousands eyes opened up like by magical subtilty

At that time the jealous Chaos starts its pressure
Yet somebody calling names
Screamming: "Press the button"

From the bottom not so deep of my being
It's clear, I loose control
Through noises

Thinking nothing, no efforts
Tic-tac is yet scheduling the lines of the day
Am I so much a believer of time?
Cause believe me I am going up
At the surface of blind-town

A place where we all met each time, out of the noise
Under 4 minutes superficial chaotic preparation...

Who acts freely? Is one controlled by instinct, basic needs, and indoctrination of culture.
(Deepak, is it just the dance of molecules - which allows for - abuses as in the Catholic Church scandal?)

One who is free from these elements, knows the mystery is transcended.

Here is that binuaral beat video / audio I promised and something more, thought it pertinet to religious discussion.

Click my name below for the link.

The Ark of the Covenant, the Eye of Creation, or I of creation. It was not the Ark that was of value it was the contents a crystal orb and a resonant chamber fueled by the flow of water. Not sure how it works, although it may be attributed to the piezoelectric properties of the crystal. It was found in South America, there is no documentation to confirm it’s origin, only an oral tradition passed down by Shamans, you will just need to decide for your self. It is said to impart creative intelligence to the observer and may do simply do this by putting the observer into deep theta. Gaze at the center some see images but these only exist in your mind.

The primordial sound produced generates a binaural beat frequency of 4.6692 Hz which happens to be Feigenbaum’s constant or the first number of chaos. Feigenbaum called this number the universal convergence parameter and became known as the principle of universality. It is a complex subject.

This is also in the frequency range of deep theta, normally achieved after years of meditation. In about 5 minutes your brain waves will have synchronized. At about 4 minutes and 30 seconds the crystal orb seems to warp space and time and loses it’s solid form even warping the containment vessel.

No one has been able to entirely explain the phenomena. The shaman alluded to the notion that this is what priests used to engage God or the all pervading intelligence however they were corrupted by the power and used it for their own gain, and they lost possession of it…. It has now been released to the world as a part of Infinite Play the Movie.

Some people may not be ready to experience it, if you feel uncomfortable please stop watching.

Feigenbaum's constant can be used to predict when chaos will arise in such systems before it ever occurs. Based on current analysis human civilization is approaching chaos as is the planet earth for different reasons, as evidenced with the increase of phonons of a magnitude of proportion, in other words increased vibration.

This may be adverted or transcended with the application of Phi, the golden ratio, or divine proportion. 1.618.. to infinity. I hope to be helping in this area.

Daily Kos: Pelosi, At Papal Mass, Demonstrates Pro-Choice Politicians Not Prohibited From Receiving Communion...

...conservative political activists who are also Catholic have tried to make it an issue. For them, Church doctrine is only relevant on issues of the crotch. The Just War doctrine, economic justice, capital punishment, none of those things matter. No, the only things that matter for them are abortion, homosexuality and human conception. And they're trying to use the Church for their partisan political goals. And as seen by idiotic questions from reporters like this "Bush: America's First Catholic President? (?!)", they're at least succeeding with some dimwitted media types.

...American Catholics reject much of Church doctrine. For instance, I've only met one person who admitted to using the rhythm method and adhering to the Church's prohibition on contraception. 53% consider themselves pro-choice. 53% support physician-assisted suicide. 61% believe abortions should be legal. 70% say the pronouncements of Bishops are not important in determining their vote. 71% support the death penalty. 72% support stem cell research. And a whopping 78% oppose denying communion to politicians who support abortion rights.

White Catholic voters are one of the key swing constituencies in a general election. Most polls show White Catholics leaning quite strongly toward Democrats for this November's election. Conservatives would love to reverse that, and to permanently peel off a lot of those voters on the abortion issue. But the Church will be very reluctant to oblige them by withholding communion to pro-choice politicians and thereby alienating 78% of American Catholics.

Wow Richard, thanks, I loved that! You're really talented. I wonder if such binaural sounds could be used as background for other music, a friend of mine is allowing a song to be born these days, and this idea came to combine it with something like what you did here. Would the brain be effected the wame way even if a "song" would go on in the foreground?

And chaos... it is the necessary step for expansion. Incredibly exciting times :) Cheers for chaos!

CHAOS=CHARON-R go S instead of N
Charon=the ferryman across the Styx between the two worlds

CHAOS=CHAROS-R
Charos

R=? (Runescape?)

Charos was a diplomatic human who lived in the Sanguinesti region in southeastern Morytania. Charos was the head advisor of Lord Drakan, the ruler of Morytania, which earned him a hated reputation amongst the humans of Morytania.

Charos is famous for his ability to bend the wills of the weak-minded. He could easily convince people to do his bidding, and was, as a result, very valuable to Lord Drakan. Charos eventually became confident that he could use his gift to control Lord Drakan himself. When he attempted this, though, Drakan instantly knew what he was trying to do, and removed Charos from his position of advisor. What became of Charos after his failure is unknown, although he was most likely killed or imprisoned by Lord Drakan for treason.

Charos created the Ring of Charos, which caused the werewolves of Morytania to believe he was one of them. It also furthered his ability to control the weak-minded. The ring was eventually lost, however, and fell into the hands of Fenkenstrain. It can be obtained by players who manage to complete Creature of Fenkenstrain, although its mind-bending abilities can only be unlocked after completing part of Garden of Tranquility.

Dear Desh, Forgive me for being as unclear as we somtimes get.
What is vibration without the partcle? If there is no particle to traverse the wave then there is no time involved. So what is vibration? Power? Energy? Vitia? Spirit?

I liked your poem, Ed, about the married couple.

Life is a job

Man, please take the next exit, because the job I have has nothing to do with life

We need to stop and think about that
Please take the next exit...

Dear Jean, Before you join the unemployment line....I need to further erudite my explanation above. What the heck, I left out an important piece.

If the particle is out of the equation and then no distance has been traversed, then no space exists either, (no time either).

It could be our particle here is symbolic of the lower self. Yoga masters getting it out of the equation for a time, n'est ce pas?

Pope Benedict came a long way:

· At age 14 membership in Germany's "Hitler Youth" became mandatory. So Joseph Ratzinger enrolled
· He managed to get out early so he could study for the priesthood.
· Two years later, when he was 16, Ratzinger was drafted again by the German Army.
· Ratzinger worked as a helper in an anti-aircraft brigade.
· In 1945, he was put through basic training and stationed near his hometown in Bavaria.
· When Allied forces advanced, he deserted the German army — risking death by that act alone.
· After he escaped, Ratzinger was captured by American soldiers and spent the remainder of the war in a POW camp.

I would like to reference the quote from Dr. Chopra's article which Richard referred to in Posting No. 6: "The Pope sits on a throne that belongs to Jesus when he returns, and this symbolizes a duty to care for the Kingdom of God here on earth".

I've been reading about the origins of the early Christian teachings and about how there were different levels of the teachings dispersed among disciples of the faith. All of the disciples received the Outer Teachings, some received the Inner Teachings, and a few received the inmost Secret Teachings.

Orthodox forms of Christianity represent the Outer Teachings, though gravely distorted by religious dogma, doctrines and creeds.

The original teachings say that the purpose of the Divine Incarnation was for the Spiritual Initiation of mankind through which the Christ Consciousness might be made manifest in the human life-wave on earth. This first Seed of Light planted in human consciousness by Jesus is supposed to result in a Second Coming, the fruition of the Holy Seed in the realization of the Christ Consciousness by humanity.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.

Judging by the crowds (today 25,000 youth) out to get a glimpse of the Pope and how he has touches many more thousands this week, it appears that the youth has been quite satisfied.

I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the Pope's visit to the states.

Steve

Hello Deepak and Everyone,

The Pope's Visit....YAWN.

Frankly, I have had more spiritual quidance from reading Deepak Chopra' books, although, Deepak is just one of many men and women who have helped me in my quest for understanding the nature of my spiritual journey, than I have ever gotten from the Catholic Church.

Timothy Shriver...of the famous Shriver/Kennedy Clan wrote a column in the Washington Post as to why he is proud to be a Catholic and my thought was, I bet I am more proud to be an ex-Catholic.

Sorry, if I have offended anyone here who is a Catholic....just ignore me....I have very Catholic relatives who NEVER miss a mass on Sunday and my one relative actually said this to me...."you know I really prayed that George Bush wouldn't win the election...I guess he had other things in mind." I said," no, you were outprayed the evangelicals were praying to their god for him to be elected."...now, this is a very intelligent woman but she gave me a look of such surprise., like she hadn't thought of it that way...hmmmmmm.

have a great evening everyone, ruth

Exact opposite for me Ruth and I'm not even Catholic.

Cheers,

Steve

Morning Steve,

You know I kind of figured that about you, Steve, your writings and comments are probably as clear a picture as to your likes and dislikes and perceptions as mine are..:))))))))

have a wonderful day....ruth

Hey Ruth,

Hope you are doing well this Sunday. I found a little article written by one of my favorite Rabbis in LA Rabbi David Wolpe, about the difference between being spiritual and religious. I think he does a much better job that I when it comes to my main gipe about what it means to feel as opposed to doing, and I think we get confused to think it's enough to just "be" or "feel" or have "intent" when in reality action is called for.

Anyway here is Wolpe's article Ruth:

“I'm Spiritual, but I'm not Religious”
By Rabbi David Wolpe
“I’m spiritual, but I’m not religious.” How many times have we heard that
phrase? Let’s try to understand it.
Spiritual is what one feels. Religious is what one does. So you can announce
yourself as spiritual and never join a community, never visit a home for
someone who is mourning, never contribute money to a synagogue, school, Jewish center or
soup kitchen. In other words, all too often ‘spiritual’ asks nothing of us — it
is the narcissism of non-involvement.
There is a purity to non-involvement of course. Spirituality allows one to
feel good about oneself. I am in touch with the great forces of the world. I
am a deep soul. In contrast to the crass materialists out there, I do not allow
myself to be diverted by mere physical things, because I am spiritual.
Hillel famously said, “If I am not for myself, who will be for me?” He
followed that with: “If I am only for myself, what am I?” Notice that the
great Rabbi could not even define an individual as one who cares only for
himself. Spirituality alone is sanctimony, unworthy of God’s creations.
Spirituality tied to action is a truly beautiful thing. We have a word for it —
religious.

Morning Steve,

Interesting perspective, if not, a bit bias towards religion. But gee, Steve, he is a Rabbi writing this piece, so, I suspect, he is going to float his boat, his choice, his dogmas, his acts as being the better for himself and humanity.

Now, I think religion is just fine and dandy for folks who get their susteance from it and I agree it does do some good works, in it's involvement with the world community.

But, I think, your Rabbi is a bit out of touch with the spiritual aspect of one's being and what it pertains to and what it has to offer not only on and individual basis but on a community basis also.

Really, I think there are many people in the world who are "spiritual" and not religious that do and give and act. I know many, myself. They may not give to a religious institutions(since religious institutions cover their dollar needs quite efficiently, in many cases) but they contribute and do and take action, all the while in their "just being" sort of way.

My advice to your Rabbi, don't knock it till you try it, and I am sure there are plenty of "spiritual, but, not, religious" folk who would be willing to show your Rabbi the ropes, so to speak, of a less bias view of the spiritual way of being.

Steve, as always, it is a pleasure....have a great afternoon, ruth

Dear Ruth,

I agree with you. I believe that "Spirituality" refers more to the true essence of an individual and that this is what guides the spontaneous actions of a person in his relationship to others. I believe that "Religiosity" refers more to codified beliefs and rituals determined by organizations.

Rituals tend to stifle independent, inspired action. The Spirit provides a stronger connection to spontaneous and natural interaction with others. I believe that Dr. Avtar Singh has referenced the importance of spontaneity as a guiding force of Spirit.

Thank you for your explanation of both terms.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.

happy passover...amber!

Thanks Ruth,

Regarding Rabbi Wolpe, he was just voted the nation's #1 pulpit Rabbi according to Newsweek, so he seems to have an appeal and influence.

He recently recovered from Non-Hogkins Lymphoma.

I think spontaneity is marvelous, but what if one is not inspired or feel spontaneously spiritual? One thing I know, giving charity whether one is in the mood or not, has no bearing on the enormous help it provides to the needy. In fact I would argue that habit trumps inspiration. To me ritual is the vehicle to express values.

Again, whether inspired or not, the good is in the doing and attending church or temple on a regular basis gives one the spiritual kick in the butt to continue on.

Americans are more religious than Europeans and give far more charity as well. I'm talking about individuals.

Wolpe's point is to combine spirituality with action so Ruth by definition you are being religious!! Parish the thought right? :)

Ruth if you care to listen for yourself any of Wolpe's lectures, I have provided the link:

http://www.sinaitemple.org/rabbinic/sermons.php

Thanks D. yes I am enjoying Passover.

Cheers and enjoy the rest of the weekend all.

Steve

Hi Steve,

I actually have some extendend family celebrating Passover this Weekend, although, it totally slipped my mind, that, it is, indeed, Passover. So, Happy Passover. Steve. to you and your family.

I am very happy that the Rabbi is well lauded by his followers and Newsweek. I am also happy that he has recovered from a serious illness because right now an extended family member's grandson, who is 11, will not survive his brain cancer, but his family has been helped these last four years of his on again, off again battle by many people, some, who believe, in a god, and, participate, in a religion, and, others, who do not believe in god but participate in the simple act of human compassion and empathy. They all have helped this family deal with the impossible burden of watching a child deal with a devastating terminal illness while the family has to continue the day to day chop wood, carry water routine.

It is just I don't really agree with the definition that religion is spirituality in action, in any way shape or form. Not that it cannot be and not that in some cases it actually manifests as such but for the most part is falls too short, it is just, for the most part, I think, a case of Religion is Religion's best friend not necessrily the best friend of being able to know and manifest one's true Nature or even the best friend of actually experiencing one's true Nature. And Frankly, and this is my opinion, only, I think, the most important thing in religion or spirituality is to experience god(one's true Nature),directly, now, in life and body not as some promise of, in the hereafter, I think that experience is possible for all of us in our lifetimes and that was the ultimate job of religion, to guide our soul(consciousness) to that experience, and, if, the Religion's practice's, laws, dogmas were not able to do that then they should be evaluated and changed in order for it's followers to helped in that quest, instead of adhered to and put before their followers spiritual unfolding. Although, I realize that- that aspect of spirituality is not important or even recognized by many who tend to follow a particular religion, so, for them, it is not missed in any way, as far as their spiritual sustenance is concerned. I think that to spend a whole life involved in any religious practice that does not have the ultimate goal of the follower being able to experince directly, intimately, knowingly, the resurrection of their own ego/personality to come face to face with....is a sad affair, not, a totally unfortunate affair, since, I think all work and service is counted......in one's quest for spiritual unfolding, or put another way the soul's journey home.

Frankly, Steve, I think there is plenty of narcissism in every Religious Institution that manifests itself in their strict laws, dogmas, outdated beliefs, judgements, etc.

Thanks for the link I will check it out sometime....sorry, got a bit carried away.

Anyway, it is easy to see how much you love your religious practice and doing anything with that much desire and love is in Martha's words....a very good thing:))))))))

Hi, Betsy S...

have a good evening everyone....I'm turning off now....ruth

I'm so sorry to hear your extended family members' 11 year grandson, very sad to hear. I imagine it's causing deep pain with the family and I wish for the best.

I'm just trying to bring another angle to the purpose of religion and one thing I'm realizing Ruth is perhaps one's true nature isn't the goal, perhaps it's rising above one's nature.

I'll leave it at that, have to run and thanks for your best wishes and again my prayers go out to your family.

Be well Ruth, always a pleasure.

Steve

http://momentin.com/revstudy/chap06seal1a.html

Interesting link on the study of Chapter 6--the First Seal--the Prophecy being fortold.

Makes me wonder, if the 4 horses in the first broken seal; represent the 4 nominees for the American Election??

Something to learn, about prophecy, and current events.

Love,
North

#35 Hi Steve you write to Ruthie on purpose of religion;
>>>>>"perhaps it's rising above one's nature."<<<<<

Do you think that is what 'celibacy' is about? The trouble would be trying to force it on nature. I feel there must be another way to be in the World and not of it...a third way which actually is the only way and starts in the Heart.

37 + Oh yeah, AND fasting, and barbed-wire underwear (hair vests, [why hair?]), skewers through the tongue, walking on hot-coals, even eggshells, buried alive, etc etc. I'm a whirling Deviousish

You are on to something SteveAmba, YO.

Hello Steve,

quick comment on your writing, " and one thing I'm realizing Ruth is perhaps one's true nature isn't the goal, perhaps it's rising above one's nature."

No, we can rise above our ego/personality, our human nature, but our true Nature is it, there is no above or below, front or behind, it IS.

thanks, for your kind wishes for Scotty, you are right it is, I think, at this point, in their journey with his brain cancer... it must be beyond pain. To me, families that have to deal with a serious illness in their children are real life heros, they truly humble me when I see the size of the mountain that they have traversed....

have a great day Steve, ruth

Steve & Ruth: thanks for that lovely exchange - strong & opposite opinions respectfully exchanged, a quote presented but also explained, a quick cut to the heart of the matter, and a bow to each other at the end. Heartwarming to see any day, but especially on IB these days.

Ruth: that was a tremendously insightful statement you made there - our true Nature is it, there is no above or below, front or behind, it IS.

#40 Damn it sWORDSman, nobody made a nice comment when I treated about up and down on Open Thread ;)

Eat you heart out, Ed.

Hi sWORDSman,

Ah, what a nice compliment.....thank you.

Ed, you rock and rollie:))))))))

good nite moon.....ruth

Very nice compliment sWORDSman, thank you

Dear Ruth, your comments about Scotty certainly come from a high plane, very moving words.

You are very right on, our nature is what it is. I discovered by true nature and I have up and down inclinations, everyone does. Inclinations I would like to rise above sort of speak. One can meditate for a many years, do tons of seminars , seduction of spirit etc and one's nature is there.

I believe though the higher mind is not part of one's nature, and can help one to incline towards the up.

Simple example, I have an assignment and I feel lazy, maybe it's my nature to feel lazy, maybe I really don't feel like doing this and veg out. It's my nature, however, the mind says, sorry Steve got to get this done, people are counting on you, get up and just do it.

I could override the mind, I could say screw it, but then look at the consequences, not so great.

So I go against the inertia and finish the assignement and then perhaps veg. Much more satisfying.

In Judaism much is written about the evils of gossiping, it's taken very seriously. It can really do damage. It's in most people's nature to gossip. Maybe that's why it's emphasized so much in the teachings.

Do this make sense, when I talk about rising above nature? I've studied Vedanta and higher philosophies I know about the notion of "All this is Noting but That" but one still has to like you say chop wood and carry water, live in the mundane.

Well enough for now Ruth and everyone, have a good evening.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,

I got an e-mail this am from Scotty's Grandmother telling me that Scotty passed away very early this am. She said he lived 1 hour and 35 minutes passed his 11th birthday. Scotty had, at least, four years of dealing with an agressive brain cancer, but, he, of course, took every chance, every oppoortunity, to enjoy, to smile, to be the kid he was, whenever, he wasn't too sick. His family will miss him terribly, and, for them, I will weep.

ruth.

Hi Steve,

The examples you give are to me examples of our human nature, our ego/personality make-up. It may be our human nature to not want to work, or to work less, and play more, or it may be in our human nature to gossip and it may be in our human nature to try to stop ourselves from our desire to gossip by doing certain things or not doing certain things, and it is, of course, fine to want to polish the stone of our human nature, so to speak, by becoming what we think of as more disiplined, more hard working, more generous. And this to me is what Religion tends to focus on, the betterment of our ego/personality make-up, the betterment of our human nature and it seems religions tend to assume that our human nature needs much scrutinization and many laws for it to straighten up an fly straight.

Personally, I think we learn a lot of what is taught in any Church just by living one's life and having relationships with family, friends and foes. We are learning as we grow every minute of every day, for better or for worse.

There are folks who love participating in a religious practice just as their are those who love paricipating in a sport. They love everything about it that someone else would find absolutely horrible, the practice, the time involved, the reading, the learning, the doing. And there are those whose everyday life is their practice, they get their lessons and work that way.

Steve, you write, "In Judaism much is written about the evils of gossiping, it's taken very seriously. It can really do damage. It's in most people's nature to gossip. Maybe that's why it's emphasized so much in the teachings"

My thinking is, well, gee, how much does one really have to know about gossiping from a religious perspective. Everyone encounters gossip in their life, they do it or they are the victim of it and get to know both sides of the coin. So, if you are the victim you get a pretty clear understanding of how it effects your well-being, you soul. Really, most people are well aware of the evils of gossiping. And the word evil...I have a huge problem with that word. I would use the ignorance of gossiping. Much less dramatic in nature.

To me, the role of religion, should be, to help and guide me to god, or in other words to help me understand and answer the question WHO AM I? As a young child you are asking yourself who am I, why am I here, is there a god, who or what is it? Those are the questions most relevant to me, to my life and existance. Now, if find that religion can't guide me there, or help me with those answers then I need to find another source.

Frankly, and I know this is one tiny example, but for Judiaism to be writing extensively on the evils of gossiping I find that purely egotisical stuff...meaning let's make it more than it is, let us write a dogma on it and then we can love our dogma.

We grow, we learn, we develop a strong mind and ego/personality with which to function and make our way in our physical world while learning how to grow emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually so, we, each, and, everyone, of us can have the, ultimate experience, self-realization, god-realization, awakening to our true Nature...to answer the question who am I is the most wondrous of experiences, the most intimate of experiences it is like opening your eyes for the very first time after your birth, except this time you are conscious and knowing exactly what you are seeing.
Religions should be helping people to this experience instead of spending years upon years of polishing the stone of our human nature....not that we don't, in fact, need that, also, it is just that they have totally lost their way by their constant focus on that activity, while forgetting their one true responsibility to their fellow man.

okay, I have no idea if anything up above makes sense...but that is my take today...

have a wonderful day STeve and everyone, ruth

Ruth: "… I have no idea if anything up above makes sense … ".
It sure does to me. I might word it a little differently… like the example of Judaism on gossip. When we give to religion the authority to lay down the rules of life, we are choosing to distrust our own capacity to do so, and the longer we do it, the more justified it seems to become.

Steve, you say that "the higher mind is not part of one's nature". I remember a short but intense conversation I had with a (Christian) colleague once, and him saying, with great conviction, "the human mind is finite, and CANNOT grasp the infinite nature of God ". Well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one. And then you have Vedanta, which says "You are That", which starkly contradicts our day-to-day experience of life. If this (and other) statements of nonduality are taken as a starting point for inquiry, it can lead to all manner of interesting paths, with religions, scripture, teachers, all potentially playing a role.

I remember one teacher saying "we don't need a religion to tell us that we're finite and limited – that is glaringly obvious. It's the other viewpoint that needs explanation and unfolding".

Ruth: thanks for letting us know about Scotty's passing. I bow my head to his memory, and I pray for his family to draw strength and solace from his brief but shining life.

You're right – his family must have had an especially steep mountain as their path.

#45 Of course it makes sense Ruthie daaahlin'. You'n me are hand and G-love, yet you get all the perks!

Here's a peck from me, X..let's rock on.

btw. gossiping is a great smokescreen when you have a sneaking suspicion you are naked. OO, the shame!

hello sWORDSman,

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing differently....with your, "When we give to religion the authority to lay down the rules of life, we are choosing to distrust our own capacity to do so, and the longer we do it, the more justified it seems to become."...Exactly:))

Ed, by all means, I don't get all the perks! you seem to be doing quite well the the perky dept:))

your take on gossip is pretty right on!...00..X:)

and a good evening to you both....ruth