I would love to see this video, but it will not open for me. But thanks!

Hello!!

I'm with you Char. I'd love to hear this discussion but, I cannot access it either.

Hopefully, it will soon be functional.

Best Wishes,

Betsy

Good quality video & sound, thank you, Shekhar, that has to be your doing...

Shekhar, the discontinuity between absolute reality and what we perceive is only relevant when what we perceive shifts, because we're blind to absolute reality. It's only the relative perceptions that are important, because they are how we experience our here-and-now lives.

But we tend to search for absolute reality, even so.

To get close to absolute reality, we need to be willing to accept perceptual shifts, i.e., we need to accept challenges to our perceptions as often as possible, as long as our survival isn't threatened by the conditions that cause the shift -- I'm thinking of things like physical danger, drugs, illness. I've never been wholly uncomfortable with being sick since I realized my mind works differently when I'm ill, and I often have perception shifts and come out of an illness as a somewhat different person than I was before. Good films cause perceptual shifts. !! And great writing.

Deepak, your saying "...it is the dance between the 'I Am' and the 'I Am This' that creates the experience of time..." was particularly brilliant.

Thank you for allowing us to hear a great conversation.

Besides the great thoughts, it was a pleasure listening to two great voices -- resonant, musical, interesting.

Shekhar questions, Deepak teaches. I talk back to Shekhar, I take what Deepak says to heart. I think when musing on Shekhar's questions, I think when evaluating Deepak's thoughts. Thank you both.

love, h

About being able to play the video...

You need to have a recent version of Quicktime installed. And I find these kinds of videos work best with Firefox, instead of Internet Explorer.

Go to Adobe.com to download & install Quicktime. Go to Mozilla.com to download & install Firefox. Do the Firefox bit first, then the Quicktime bit

Ufff, that was great, thanks once again.

Deepak and Shekar on The Nature of Time?

How about Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose?

I recommend "The Nature of Space and Time" by Hawkings and Penrose:

Einstein said that the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible. But was he right? Can the quantum theory of fields and Einstein's general theory of relativity, the two most accurate and successful theories in all of physics, be united in a single quantum theory of gravity? Can quantum and cosmos ever be combined?

On this issue, two of the world's most famous physicists--Stephen Hawking (A Brief History of Time) and Roger Penrose (The Emperor's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind)--disagree.

Here they explain their positions in a work based on six lectures with a final debate, all originally presented at the Isaac Newton Institute for Mathematical Sciences at the University of Cambridge. How could quantum gravity, a theory that could explain the earlier moments of the big bang and the physics of the enigmatic objects known as black holes, be constructed? Why does our patch of the universe look just as Einstein predicted, with no hint of quantum effects in sight? What strange quantum processes can cause black holes to evaporate, and what happens to all the information that they swallow? Why does time go forward, not backward? In this book, the two opponents touch on all these questions.

Penrose, like Einstein, refuses to believe that quantum mechanics is a final theory. Hawking thinks otherwise, and argues that general relativity simply cannot account for how the universe began. Only a quantum theory of gravity, coupled with the no-boundary hypothesis, can ever hope to explain adequately what little we can observe about our universe.

Penrose, playing the realist to Hawking's positivist, thinks that the universe is unbounded and will expand forever. The universe can be understood, he argues, in terms of the geometry of light cones, the compression and distortion of spacetime, and by the use of twistor theory.

With the final debate, the reader will come to realize how much Hawking and Penrose diverge in their opinions of the ultimate quest to combine quantum mechanics and relativity, and how differently they have tried to comprehend the incomprehensible.

For the advanced reader I suggest reading the "Frozen River" chapter of Brian Greene's The Fabric of the Cosmos. "Liquid" or "flowing" time might just be a misleading metaphor. Some physicists wonder if the perception of "passing" time is only a construct of consciousness, a buffer to keep us from experiencing everything at once (now imagine "intuition" as an awareness of that otherwise occulted information). Even Einstein asked himself, quite seriously, if spacetime had a radically different consistency. If you consider spacetime, from one hour to the next, as a loaf that could be cut up into infinitely small slices, where each slice is unique and unrepeatable, could "time" actually be a succession of static, frozen moments that SEEM continuous because consciousness renders them that way, in perhaps the same way that vision seems continuous? Anyway, this image of frozen, static time occurred to Einstein, and has never been resolved.

Yes, Deepak: "Time is the movement of thought..." But it doesn't alienate, necessarily. It is our attention to time that is alienating, in that it diverts us from more absolutely real things. We experience time variably. It doesn't rule us per se, it's our attention being given to it that makes it seem as if it rules us.

Gotta go, I'm running out of time. :)

Really a great talk, thanks thanks, again!

love, h

The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality (2004) is the second book on theoretical physics, cosmology and string theory written by Brian Greene, professor and co-director of Columbia's Institute for Strings, Cosmology, and Astroparticle Physics.

If you are 'science aware' you will remember his first book was the highly successful An Elegant Universe about (M)String Theory and was made into a PBS Special.

On Time and Experience from his book(from wiki):

Part two begins by addressing the issue that time is a very familiar concept, yet it is one of humanity's least understood concepts.

Chapter five, The Frozen River, deals with the question, "Does time flow?" One of the key points in this chapter deals with special relativity. Observers moving relative to each other have different conceptions of what exists at a given moment, and hence they have different conceptions of reality. The conclusion is that time does not flow, as all things simultaneously exist at the same time.

Chapter six, Chance and the Arrow, asks the question, "Does time have an arrow?" The reader learns that the laws of physics apply both moving forward in time and backwards in time. Such a law is called time-reversal symmetry. One of the major subjects of this chapter is entropy. Various analogies are given to illustrate how entropy works and its apparent paradoxes. The climax of the chapter is the co-relation between entropy and gravity, and that the beginning of the universe must be the state of minimum entropy.

In chapters five and six, time has been explained only in terms of pre-modern physics. Chapter seven, Time and the Quantum, gives insights into time's nature in the quantum realm. Probability plays a major role in this chapter because it is an inescapable part of quantum mechanics. The double slit experiment is revisited in a stunning way that reveals both interesting and shocking things about the past. Many other experiments are presented in this chapter, such as the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment. Other major issues are brought to the reader's attention, such as quantum mechanics and experience, as well as quantum mechanics and the measurement problem. Finally, this chapter thoroughly addresses the important subject of decoherence and its relevance towards the macroscopic world.

Yes, "decohenernce"! it explains why an act of observation seems to change/create reality.

Hello Deepak and Shekhar and all

cannot get the video...my computer is low tech, like my life...I don't even have a cell phone...oh, my, god....what will I do in an emergency???? probably not call anyone, right away.

but speaking of time....I was concieved in time, live in time and will die in time....I AM, is, everpresent, and will swallow me whole.:)

evening ruth.

Vanessa, as usual, well researched and to the point.

I am still not able to watch the video unless it is short and done in segments like Deepak post from his home/travel cam. It sounds like it was interesting...

Love, Char

It's so interesting to be on both sides, both in and outside of time. I find myself sometimes immersed in a scene (and some scenes are really more catching than others!) ...and the moment I switch to looking from the other side... anything after "I am" ceases to exist.

Within time, whatever follows after "I am" is predetermined, it follows patterns automatically, while in the timeless state, nothing is, so anything can be. That's why even short dippings into this timeless domain start to dissolve the automatic patterns, until there is only free roaming chaos left, life roaming with such harmony and grace it's mind-boggling.

This chaos can indeed be navigated through questions which are an open ended form of directing attention, but even the questions we ask come from the bundle of patterns floating in the soup of consciousness. You cannot ask a question that is outside of your conceptual world unless you let go of yourself and your world...

Still, questions exist in spacetime and not outside. The "I am" has no questions to ask. So when you say, Shekhar, "I define the universe as a matrix of questions" ... you are looking from inside time, from the limited identity that has surrendered to expansion through questioning. It's quite beautiful, isn't it?

This has become my way too, after eons of battle :) Kill the ego? You're kidding?? :) Let identity expand instead, until it breaks through the barrier of time. I call it surrender, I call it willingness to ask those questions you are most afraid of and through it, going to the places that are still "something other than I". You keep including everything until there is nothing outside, and all is inside, in some cosmic "I" that simply is. And that "I" somehow drowns in its own existence.

Oh well... coming back to the world of separateness with a wink... it was wonderful to listen to your conversation, thank you :)

#13 Giggling with you sweetie.

#10 Getting along fine with you, Ruthie.

#0 Juggling with you

I was not able to watch the video either, but from the posts I was able to kind of put the message together.

On the subject time, I don't understand how it works nor do I have to... in order to experience that time can be changed and therefore believe that time is "manmade".

I find my self moving in and out of time...consciously, depending on the situation that is presented to me.

Once I was on my way to pick up my child from school. I was running late and the traffic was heavy. When I noticed that I wasn't going to make it on time, I said Jesus take the wheel and I let go.

I don't remember how I got to school, nor do I remember driving, but what would have taken me 40 minutes I did in 20. I got there not just in time...but had to wait.

Another time, I was asked to do church service for a friend who was on vacation. Everything went "wrong" that morning and I was running late. On my way there I handed it over to God and took no thought.

When I arrived (15 minutes late) there were no cars, my partner said that everyone already left. But I stayed in "no thought" and went up to the door and rang the door bell. The door was opened by a memeber of the church, who was surprised to see me that early. That day the clocks were set back.

I KNOW that time is subject to change...what is Real...never changes.

I'd like to add one more thing...if I may : )

In this world of time and space, we have the choice to create...consciously or not. But then there is another alternative that most don't even know exists: we can become witnesses to "God's" creation...to perfection...to miracles.

Sounds like Infinite Play, a couple infinite players and they type of dialog and musing we would find among such beings.

I have an additional perspective on time. I have done some real-time embedded systems programming, using C and inline assembler, which results in interesting insights.

I would have to actually create a clock or timer, from a crystal that oscillates X times while a photon travels one meter in a vacuum which is 1/299,792,458 of a second or 299,792,458 metres per second. The time it takes information of a present moment occurring at relative matrix coordinates 1 meter from coordinates 0,0,0. The actual delay may be correlated with the speed at which we can process the information stack which may be further correlated with the amount of information. When we stop processing information time stops. Cesium atoms will produce 9,192,631,770 on offs or peaks occur during a frame of infinitesimals, an infinitesimal is one half a Planck unit of time. Which is the period required for a photon to travel one Planck length. During one second a Cesium atom will produce 9,192,631,770 on offs or peaks (pulses) occur during a second which is defined by relationships between participating events..

Time is really a dimensionless value that is given dimension when event frequencies are compared producing a relationship.

In one example I would create a 1 millisecond clock as a timer. So a counter, a set of zeros and ones changes state 1 thousand times per second and every time it changes state it fires an interrupt and a bunch of switches representing zeros and ones are flipped back and forth and a count is kept. Electricity if the life blood of the system it is what makes things happen. The length of this timer is stipulated by the needs of the observer to see data output 1,000 times per second which you might say is the refresh rate of the display.

Actually during the millisecond there are thousands of instructions and millions of events occurring over micro second spans of time, one millionth of a second. So I am creating functions that execute over the course of several micro seconds. There are multiple randomly occurring interrupts as well from sensors with measurements that must all be processed during the span of the millisecond with micro second response times. Such that one writes logic and applies intelligence to these switches that by themselves are nothing until when brought to life by the flow of electrons allow intelligence to manifest.

So we actually create time using symbology which is how we give the math meaning and create a picture from it.

One assigns symbols to the 0 1 configurations using a collection of 8 ons and offs. The symbols are intangible which have meaning and allow comprehension by awareness.

You can’t see the intelligence embedded in the system, it comes to life with electricity and you can see it’s effect.

So what is happening is it’s flipping these true falses, zeros, ones, on and off states back in forth each switch by itself means nothing. But a set of switches in a certain pattern have meaning, assigned by the observer, based on math, generally in a group of eight. There is no meaning found in the array of switches but only in the mind of the observer is meaning found. One actually uses symbols to program with one does not calculate each. The creation is the result of something A dance of symbols on a framework of math, the symbols are used to give meaning in the mind of the observer or self conscious awareness.

It’s the symbology that gives meaning to the math underlying form. The symbology is the form that is derived from the numerical values streaming into our mind that we call the senses.

The importance in all this is the observer programmer this is where the intelligence comes from to give the simplest foundation zeros and ones meaning and it requires self conscious awareness to be able to process information.

What is interesting is that without time there would be no color or events or experience, the one exception perhaps being the experience of self which does not require time.

For example Green Light is simply an energy vector containing 500 trillion pulses per second. It is a numeric value that we assign the symbol “green”. Indigo is about 420 trillion pulses per second. When you experience 500 trillion pulses per second coming from an object rather than saying it’s emitting 500 trillion pulses per second which by the way cannot be counted by the linear mind, we say it is green, labeling the experience of 500 trillion pulses per second green. It is really a numeric value.

We are giving math meaning with symbols which are really the sum totals of the underlying calculations.

The math is true, it is the interpretation of the math, and the play of symbols that can give rise to fiction and illusion.

That said Richard, is not everything that appears an illusion and that which dwells beyond the appearance of things fiction/Real/Reality?

With other words is the possibility of all possibilities not the Real? The only "Real" is unseen, beyond that which is seen/observed and that which is seen, observed only a particular possibility, but because it is not all possibilities...not "real"?

And if this is so, why not choose to be in all possibilities? What makes being of no mind/no thought open to miracles/perfection?

Ti i i i ammmm is not on my side, no it ain't!

Ti i i i ammmm is not on my side, no it ain't!

You'll come running back, you'll come running back . . .

And the verse continues . . .

Rolling Stones rock! Click name 4 vid!

pax vobiscum

The experience of illusion is real and that is what counts.

Mahalo Deepak and Shekhar for dancing with the moment of the event horizon. love patty

True,true.... Richard.

Dr. Chopra/Shekhar:

Wrote this about your video on my blog:

http://drishtikone.com/?q=blog/deepak-choprashekhar-kapur-discusssion-and-contextinfinity-relation

Cheers,
-desh
drishtikone.com

Deepak,

I posted this under the wrong post yesterday so I am making that correction. After picking my bouquet of flowers yesterday and riding my bike back home bikers and walkers on the river trail kept smiling at me and one commented on the beautiful flowers. I realized that flowers are just like music...they connect us heart to heart.

Trish~~

Deepak,

I saw "time" yesterday. I observed it through senses and consciousness. The context was earthy soil. Time was spread out before me in a field of daffodils. Some of the yellow flowers were faded, wilted, discolored. Others were if their full blossom beauty. Still others were just starting to open. Time is a field singing it's song. Today I have a bouquet of time singing in a vase of clear water. Time gives us many gifts through nature. Time grounds us in Nature. Nature grounds us in time.

Time gives birth and it is up to us to celebrate it not dissect it. And at the same time I value masculine angles of logical dissection. However, male angles have held dominant control for too long and must soften and yield to include new feminine ways of seeing/hearing/being. Why? Evolution.

And at the same time feminine angles need to change and expand to include new masculinity. Why? Evolution.

We are at an opportune time - a pivotal point - for each part that was separate to now embrace the other. Time celebrates this union in brain/body.

Trish~~

In the beginning was
light and dark
positive and negative
male and female
Their holy union disrupted
Their connection lost
in downward spiral
Black hole reigned supreme
Brainwashing male and female
in brain and body Homo Sapien

Deep in space/time Light gained momentum
Ancestors returned
Teachers re-turned
turning tides of reality around
What was lost to darkness
was found in darkness
Light lifted
in upward spiral on wings of Love

Homo Sapien reclaimed its wings
Suffering shifted in density
Violence shifted in hue
Hatred lifted as ego began to see
letting go of fear in separation
Light beings were welcomed and seen
Embraced again as Family
Connection re-turned
Charging Earth field with new Life Force

Trish~~

# 26, 27, Trish ! Lovely take on Time...

Angles are genderless, powerful beings with the utmost masculine and feminine qualities. The Gabriel managed such different tasks as to whisper the Word to tender Mary and used his might when squeezing Muhammad unconscious when urging him to recite the Word...

I see what Trish meant. The good news is that the World is made of Feminine quality, out of Energy everything is mothered into existence.

Just came back from India, where time flows somewhat different, its nice to witness the timely progression; from (Avtar's) denial of its existence to (Deepak's) thoughtful appreciation.

We've shared the Tantric view of Time in response to Avtar's 'Does Time exist' ( those who haven't read it, please see the extracts in a P. S. )

Our understanding of time is profoundly influenced by the movement of the earth around the sun and sun's reflection on moon's face.

We are affected by the notions of day and night, dawn and dusk to such a degree that we seldom realize how much this planetary movement shaped our perception of reality.

Furthermore the experience of day and night gives rise to the notion of light and shadow, which in turn gives the possibility of perceiving the world of shapes. This contrast, the junction, literally shapes the world and our understanding with it.

The knowledge that the stars are there regardless of the colour of the sky is the first step towards timeless existence.

Jai Guru Dev

igor

P. S.

...Re-reading Dr Avtar Singh's ''Does Time Exist?'', and reflecting on the validity of the concept, especially the part on dissolving the time via dissolving the ego...

I thought it would be illumining to hear another view by the foremost expert in the west on many branches of Veda, Dr David Frawley. The quote is taken from the book called 'Tantric Yoga and the wisdom Goddess', ISBN: 0-910261-39-3, ( by the way highly praised by Deepak Chopra).

Here is an extract on Goddess Kali, by Dr David Frawley:

''...The Sanskrit word Kali literally means time. Kali is the feminine of the word for time, which in masculine is Kala. Time, as we all are forced to understand, is foremost of the powers which governs the universe. In its essential nature time is eternity itself, perpetual changeless duration. Everything change but change itself. Everything moves but the movement itself, movement itself does not stop. This perpetuity or immutability in duration is the secret message of time. Ultimately, time is being itself, the unborn, uncreate, undying, absolute reality. Time in its manifestation conceals unmanifest time which is eternity, the mirror on which the image of time move but which they cannot affect...

... Time is not a mere abstract continuum in which things occur, it is a living field, a conscious energy, a matrix and a vortex. Time is the great womb and hence has a feminine quality....

Time is the working out of a cosmic intelligence. It is the very breath of cosmic spirit. Time is not a mere mathematical concept but the very stuff of our experience, the rhythm of our lives. What are we apart from time ? Time is our mother and origin, as well as our final abode. Time is the mother who eats her children, which is one of the terrible aspects of Kali. Yet in devouring her own children she is also returning them to her wholeness and delight...

Time is life. Life is our movement in time. Through our own life-force or Prana we experience time. Kali as time is Prana or life-force...

Life and death are the rhythms of time, the ebb and flow of eternal sea. Kali is life that exists in death and death that exists in life... To die daily is her daily worship...'' ( end of a quote )

I am curious to the response of scientifically minded readers, if they would find a moment to reflect on the quoted above. It may seem all too esoteric, yet if one accepts the time as the mass of energy, one is entering an entirely different universe, much more conscious than the one based on time and space as being a mere abstraction.

We know that time and space are interdependent. Space literally unfolds in time like a Great Safawid (Antique Persian Carpet), with an amazing design being revealed at each and new unfolding. The illusion is not time & space (not the carpet), but an appearance of an intricate pattern as separate from its base. Blinded by the senses and bewildered by the complexity of the colours and the shapes we loose the thread out of which the carpet is being woven. Yes, the carpet here is the matrix of the universe, the mass of sound and light which gives birth to the phenomenon of time & space, through the agency (thread) of Prana. Hidden yet present in every fiber, the fabric of time & space is stitched by Prana.

Our understanding of the universe, is subject to the unfolding of its design as well. Whenever one thinks that one got an overall view of the whole picture, a new dimension is being reveal which challenges the previous idea. Knowledge itself is not something fixed, just like time and space it continuously expands into infinity and there is no beginning and no end to this process. No beginning and no end ! It expands into infinity and collapses into singularity at every instant, not just at time of dissolution. What we call a universe is contained in singularity of a point and every point in the universe contains the Totality. There is no creation and no destruction of the universe, it is unborn and timeless. Whence its pointless to talk about what's real and what's unreal, when all there is Totality.

Misspelling: I meant: Angels are genderless ...

Why is it so important to understand everything?

I am just wondering on my question; as it was to my understanding, that "awareness" was being in the state of nonthought, or in an experience of the no thing/nothingness? Is knowing then, the need/desire of the ego to dominate and control time?

Love,
North

''True Love comes from understanding'' (attributed to Buddha)

North ( how are you ?) , perhaps those words will serve as the answer to your reflection on the validity of understanding.

We can feel, we can like, we can be infatuated with whatever is the subject of our fancy, treading of the spiritual path including. Yet Love, as the highest truth is the result of understanding.

Because understanding ( in spiritual sense ) is the final process of cognition, when the Self falls back onto itself, recognizing itself as the Self of all.

That is known as supreme understanding of one's own nature. And even the factual experience of oneness is often not enough if not followed by the process of cognition. That's why some realizations are not complete as it were, and no amount of spiritual experiences ( of seeing the light, etc. ) will suffice without the actual understanding that there is no other, but the Self.

With Love

Jai Guru Dev

igor

Dear Igor, I am well thankyou; how are you, and what is new with you, that you can share? This is a wonderful example you gave, thankyou! For years when I were young; I would seek, to learn and understand the tao.. and after then, only to learn, that to know the tao is within; and unseekable, as it is not lost--it is the higher presence of the Self from self...

Love,
North

PS--I really like your artwork Igor~ Brilliant!

Dear North, I am fine and all is well. Thanks for the complement to the artwork. I was in south Goa, in India with my mum, my partner and our 7 months old baby-girl. Beautiful experiences: the people, the landscape, the tropical heat, along with the unusual for this time of year storms... and the sun setting behind the Arabian Sea...

Yes, the Tao cannot be found, for it cannot be lost.

More than the Self cannot be attained, for there is nothing but the Self alone.

So what's all this seeking than ? It's a play according with the rules of Lila.

With Love

igor

Dear Igor..the holiday to India with your Mum, partner and baby girl, sounded so lovley! Being a parent is so wonderful! My only child, a son is now 19; and the years really did go by too swiftly.

In the NOW,
Love,
North

Dear Dr. Chopra,

I would like to make a comment relative to what you said about Einstein being uncomfortable with the non-local where there are different laws in operation than in our realm of experience.

The information I have seen states that the Speed of Light can be shown to be two things in our realm of experience:

Bruce Cathie and Carl Munck's work on the Speed of Light show that its speed can be shown to be these two things:

1) A precise harmonic of sound vibration frequency 144 in a time system based on 9, using minutes of arc as an indicator for distance, and

2) directly related to the shared common tangents of the sound frequency numbers (which appear to have dynamic, structured, wavelike movement) and the square root of five, which forms the building blocks for the Platonic Solids and/or the fundamental phi ratio.

You mentioned that whatever Einstein said about Time was in the relative. His question was "Where is Light in the concept of Space/Time?", not "Where is Light outside of the concept of Space/Time?"

As you suggested, the rules are different outside of our limited realm of perception.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.