Simple conclusion
The depths defy description
Advisory bored

Dear Avtar,

In my humble opinion only babies (and perhaps people who have dementia) truly have this choiceless awareness. Perhaps you can also enlighten us further into a whole new way of educating our children, based on this choiceless awareness.

Although I believe this might be possible in our Western world, it could surely need a conscious step by step approach.

From my own point of view, I have clearly perceived four seasons in my life up till now:

the season of gravity pulling me straight upwards
the season of electromagnetic forces, hormones being a very strong force,
the season of a strong force trying to reason everything out
the season of let it be and becoming eventually choiceless awareness again

Would you agree that human nature can be compared with the four seasons in nature?

Is nature functioning according to the universal laws?

Mieke

Sup this choiceless cup
Grasp good these blood-rusty nails
Nirvana payback

If the universe is the mind of God then the universe is everything God is not. In order to perceive anything you have to be separated from it. If you perceive it...you are not it.

Personally, I think we ALL just keep making stuff up and what we like or agree with, we try and convince others of its truth until is becomes a fixed illusion regarded as truth. I don't think there are any universal laws, i.e., we can change any law, anywhere, at anytime. Laws are just part of this grand illusion that we prefer at given time. It reminds of ACIMs that states we create one illusion after another to where we have become so engrossed in our illusions, as well as buried by many layers, such as dreams within dreams and within dreams of dreams - the never ending story.

BTW: I enjoyed the post too.

Dr. Singh:

Nice post but I disagree with your postulation of a path. There is no path as such. And all these Masters you named messed up right there.. they wanted to create a path.. the path was what that bound the people and mankind.

Even Heisenberg had explained that path lost all meaning at the quantum level:

http://drishtikone.com/?q=blog/path-has-no-meaning

Cheers,
Desh

Dear Desh,

To quote from your article:

"One, who revel in the Infinite world only; Second, who cannot leave the material reality; and Third, who have learned to live with these two contradictions.

While the first two can get offended by the other, the third set remains oblivious to the conflict. For in living with that conflict is the key to Truth."

Living with the paradox, how true :)

The labyrinth tool is very good in this, albeit it is a path :)

Love, Mieke

'’This wisdom of the holistic science resonates well with the teachings of Buddha, Kabir, Nanak, Jesus, and other spiritual masters as well as the essence of the non-duality described by Vedas or Vedanta.’’

‘’The secret to achieving egoless awareness is that it is not an action or doing but a free-willed undoing of the dogmas, beliefs, convictions, tantras, mantras, miracles, paranormal, and idiotic mindsets.’’

‘’Meditation is a temporary cure (requiring repetition) for the suffering of the mind or ego.’’

Reading the above statements makes one wonder if Avtar Singh, has any idea of what he is talking about. How boring (I agree with Keith, # 1) is to reply to these abracadabra with the obvious. Whence I apologize in advance for having to write what most smart kids know. The adults may just skip my entry.

Is there someone in the neighborhood who could just pop in to Mr. Avtar for a cap of tea and tell him, that the names mentioned by him are known to us through the long corridor of time only because they all sat with eyes shut for quiet a while. Not only they sat in meditation to became what they are, but many of them carried on the habit, of shutting the eyelids and bathing in silence, till the end of their worldly task.

Can someone invite the author to the nearby museum of Asian Art and show the man an image of Buddha? Yes, an image of the figure sitting crossed leg with eyes closed.

What a fool I was to think John was puling the author’s leg. I’ve got a bad feeling Avtar is out for real to get this damn ego trampled. Thanks got I am in Uzbekistan and this time I don’t think the President will give my homeland to the boot camp or the missile base.

I must admit in all my honesty that all this was a waste of time responding to Avtar Singh’ posts seriously.

Yours with Love

igor

"I must admit in all my honesty that all this was a waste of time responding to Avtar Singh’ posts seriously." ~Igor Kufayev

Ahh.. that's an "I said so" moment for me!

It is a bit surprising though, in the past he used to respond to criticism from his serious readers, but I guess, Igor who spent his valuable time reading and responding to present his well formulated and well thought out critiques (part 1, 2, 3, 4) are a bit challenging to the author ...so just ignore; ostrich-sand-ignorance-bliss.

PS: Dr. Avtar Singh has been posting here for ages for some of us and he keeps repeating his arguments and ideas 'irrespective' of whatever feedback he receives from his readers.

P. S. Our final note on the subject may be of value to the grown ups as well:

So what is the individual sense of the self - the so called ego ?

It is nothing other than that portion of Cosmic Consciousness* (see notes) which identifies with the body-mind complex, otherwise is not different from the Consciousness Itself.

The intensity of identification is paramount to the degree of inertness or liveliness of the Cosmic Consciousness. It is a matter of fact that that Power lies dormant in humans. Though dormant it is always in a state of potentiality until it is awakened. Whence all spiritual teachings have emphasized the need for awakening of that ‘’hidden power’’. No matter how different the practices may seem, they all stress the need for awakening, arousal & rising, even when the message is code by the esoteric language of each given tradition.

The loosening of the identification is also paramount to the state of awakening and a subsequent expansion of Consciousness.

The identification would be severed completely at a higher stage of that ascend, yet if the so called ‘’passage’’ is free of impurities** the Consciousness will undergo the unwinding of the self-imposed state of contraction in the most spectacular fashion. In case of the blockages that ascend might take a lifetime or several lifetimes. The identification with the body and the mind would loosen up, gradually or forcibly, eventually enough for the experience of freedom and bliss of the Self to become an unobstructed experience.

It’s worth remembering that the awakening itself is not enough for the true experience of Cosmic Consciousness as it is, without the limitations, causal in nature, the expansion, rising of Consciousness is absolute necessity

Yet in actuality there is no individual ego or self independent of the Cosmic One. Consciousness in a contracted state is inert so identification with the matter is intense.

In a more lively state it entertains itself as a conscious being, yet not conscious enough as there is still identification with the body, mind and other finer temporary realities.

In a state of Awakening Consciousness manifests as a stir, creating the in-between state, that which is known as a seeker after liberation.

When Consciousness is fully Awakened and expanded to its own Self it is the state technically known as enlightenment.

The truth is in all these fluctuations Consciousness remains Consciousness and nothing else. Contraction and Expansion are but extremes of the same Reality.

What is there to rid off ? And who is doing the ridding ?

There is no individual ego as such its only an error of the language.
That's where the full extension of the Lila comes into play.

Once again it is that aspect of Consciousness which identifies with whatever limited or unlimited state it undergoes in order to enjoy the Bliss of the Self.

Notes:

* ~ call it, Spirit, Kundalini, Divine Mother, Latent Energy, Prana Shakti, Chi, or whatever is your cultural preference.

** ~ (the state of) the nervous system is crucial for it acts as a conductor between the pure consciousness at one end and its (s)lower expression at the other. The process of expansion is also connected to the state of the nervous system of the given body-mind complex. Otherwise the full impact could burn an entire nerve tissue complex, as the lightning which hits the bush. For that reason the manner and the tempo of the awakening with the ascend reflects the principal: one gets what one can handle.

Jai Guru Dev

igor

Thanks Mieke!

Igor: The problem about this meditation bit that you have talked about is that Dr. Singh used the, now more prevalent definition of meditation and THAT's where the problem is!

Buddha with his eyes closed is experiencing meditation - but that "ACT" of sitting and eyes closed has no relevance to it. He could have been walking as well!

On the rother hand, Dr. Singh's characterization of repetition is called "Jap"... but it has come to be synonymous with meditation over the years.. which I feel is sad and nonsensical!

You could be working on your laptop writing blogs and still meditating! Meditation has probably been BEST explained in recent times by J. Krishnamurti. Its the awareness.. that ability to "be" with your actions. Repetition is NOT meditation! Lots of "Masters" have given that as a popular definition but that's why I dont want to take them seriously.. Even if they WERE Masters... that doesn't help me in any way at all. Its MY fight with MYSELF.

Cheers,
-d.

typing error: ''... even when the message is coded by the esoteric language ...''

# 11 ''....Repetition is NOT meditation! Lots of "Masters" have given that as a popular definition but that's why I dont want to take them seriously.. Even if they WERE Masters... that doesn't help me in any way at all. Its MY fight with MYSELF.''

I better go to sleep least I start making naughty comments, yet who could help... For now: Good luck Desh !

With Love

igor

John, you are bad influence on me... I am starting to enjoy this.

Meditation to me is a tool. A tool to help quite the mind. One first learns to control the mind...by focusing one's attention on just one thing/object/thought...the second step is to let go of all focus and intent...to be of no thought/no mind.

Once this has been achieved...the need for meditation is over.

Why buddha is sitting with his eyes closed...is a metaphor for having a quite mind.

P.S. I believe there is only one path.....and everyone is it : )

Hi Vivian,

Well......, the labyrinth tool is a walking meditation and, performed in nature (but also virtually in 3D on ones computer), it is a beautiful soothing path that let's you "dance" through life :), living the paradox alongside.

Hi Igor, your dancing quite well :)

Jai Guru Deva
Lots of joy and love :)

Mieke

Dear Mieke:

#1: “Perhaps you can also enlighten us further into a whole new way of educating our children, based on this choiceless awareness.”

Yes, very true. One could teach high school physics in a more integrated and wholesome way to enhance wisdom and maturity in children.

---------- ------------------- ----------------- ----------------

Dear Char4:

#4: “Personally, I think we ALL just keep making stuff up and what we like or agree with, we try and convince others of its truth until is becomes a fixed illusion regarded as truth.”

That is why we need a scientific approach to spirituality and consciousness that are validated against the actual observations of the universe. Rest all is as you say – “just keep making stuff”. Illusions and myths cannot predict the observed expansion of the universe in a non-paradoxical manner. Only a wholesome consciousness based scientific approach can weed out the myths, illusions, and subjective self judgments/opinions.

-------- -------------- --------------------

Dear Desh:

#6: “…..I disagree with your postulation of a path.”

You are agreeing and not disagreeing with what I said in my post; “Undoing” is the dissolution of all paths built upon convictions, beliefs, and rituals that represent “Doing” or blindly following a mindset path(s). Choiceless awareness is awakening and not a path. It is the destination wherein all paths dissolve.

A choice is a path. A premeditated action of meditation, in this sense, is also doing or following a path until a natural state of choiceless awareness is attained with no premeditated or planned effort. Most ritualistic meditators never reach there and continue to perform the ritual howsoever beneficial in some or many respects. Buddha meditated until he achieved the natural state of being in a natural awakened state wherein no premeditated meditation was necessary. He was in a state of choiceless awareness even while talking or doing his daily duties.

There is a common misunderstanding that spiritual masters like Buddha, Kabir, and Nanak prescribed paths to awakening. The fact is that they tried all paths –tantras, rituals, prayer, yoga positions, and chanting etc. but failed to achieve enlightenment. Their “Shunya” was dissolution of all paths and rituals. They denounced the dogmatic paths, but their not so enlightened followers who established and formalized the respective religions after them devised various paths of morals, rituals and dogmas for capturing the mass following and conversions into their established businesses of sectarian religions. Let us not blame the messengers of truth but their so-called impersonator creators of dogmatic religions that screwed up the original wisdom-full message of the masters.

-------------- --------------- ------------------

Dear Igor:

This is a delayed response to your earlier and later comments and your overall approach.

#11. Posted by Igor Kufayev on May 8, 2008 11:50 AM

“It is true, my own platform is based on the understanding of the ego phenomena from the point of view of Kashmir Shaiva Tantra. With its approach to the experiencing rather than articulating what stands as a barrier to total freedom and total joy. Where the ego, as Aham is seen as the utmost expression of the Absolute, in the saying: ''Shivoham'' ( I am Shiva ). Interestingly it resounds with the Vedantic mahavakya: Aham Brahmasmi ( I am Totality ).

Yet, my message here is to use the radical or the paradoxical method.

Jai Guru Dev”

No thanks but thanks.

Pardon me for being direct and blunt; you are distorting and misrepresenting the essence of the universal wisdom of Vedas and spiritual masters with metaphysical fluff and jargon with your own admitted Radical and Paradoxical tantric approach denounced vehemently by spiritual masters – Buddha, Jesus, Nanak, Kabir, and others.

No wonder that you would find inconsistencies between your approach and any wholesome and consciousness integrated scientific approach that weeds out the paradoxical interpretations of spirituality propagated by tantric non-wisdom. The genuine scientific approach to spirituality has no room for tantras and mantras. Scientific elements are too far different from the illusive five or twenty five tattvas of the metaphysical jargon. The scientific observations of the universe do not support the metaphysical and illusive “Samsara”, “Maya” and “Shakti” etc.

The consciousness-integrated scientific-spiritual wisdom that I am trying to share here at IB is to root out the metaphysical fluff and misrepresentations of the universal essence of the spiritual message embedded in Vedas and teachings of the spiritual masters who unequivocally denounced tantras and dogmas of religion. The message is fully consistent with the non-duality (Adwaita) of Vedanta and Buddha’s – App Dipo Bhav”, Jesus’s – “Unconditional love”, Nanak’s “Ek Onkar” , as well as Einstein’s relativity that predicts the observed universe when integrated with consciousness. The total integrated wisdom of consciousness of the masters and the greatest scientist – Einstein reveals the ultimate reality. It is only a sign of ignorance to follow “tantra” and remain devoid of the consensus wisdom of the holistic science and spirituality.

Your definition of meditation again is too ritualistic and dogmatic. Closing of eyes and sitting quietly are only rituals that even a rogue can perform (and many of them do practice these routinely to impress and rob innocent religious minded people). There is no shortage of dogmatic and fake ascetics who perform the kind of meditation and tantras you are propagating.

Encouraged and invited by Deepak, I am sharing these scientific insights for the benefit of IB audiences so as not to be misled by the metaphysical fluff, pseudo-science, and paradoxical misrepresentations of the genuine spirituality of the Vedas and spiritual masters by dogmatic and pseudo-wisdom. As expected, some of the scientific insights may be counter to the widely understood or popular interpretations; but that is where the value of scientific insights resides. Please take on the challenge to be creative and try to solve existing paradoxes of science, religion, and spirituality to uncover the shallowness of your “radical” and “paradoxical” tantric approach.

I apologize and feel for your discomfort and hurt; but the demeaning of the wisdom of the Vedanta and masters by dogmatic tantras must be discouraged. And, you talk about learning opportunities; here is a big opportunity to open your mind and learn the scientific-spiritual wisdom to replace your own admitted paradoxical “tantric” knowledge.

There is no point in engaging in a non-converging debate based on non-scientific tantras and mantras. If the consciousness integrated scientific approach seems boring and inconsistent to you or anyone else, may be you have not been able to grasp its depth and subtlety as yet or may be it is too scientific and dry for you. I do not expect anyone to grasp intimate details and implications of Einstein’s relativity theory or cosmology. But one does not have to demonstrate and dwell on one’s own apparent ignorance and prejudice by pre-judging it from the limited frame of non-scientific “tantric” (un)wisdom. One may have to open up and try harder to learn to benefit from the scientific insights.

----------- ----------------------------- ----------------------

With Love and Respect,

Avtar

Dear Avtar,

I don't have the time for entering the splitting of the hairs game, nor do I blame you for trying to discredit what I have offered here. Besides yours was a self-defense to my complete discrediting of your opinion-based judgment, devote of any consistent argument.

What really surprises me is your total dismissal of the validity of personal experience. In that your views are not different from the attitudes prevalent in the orthodox religious or scientific community. Do you know why ?

Because the nature of the direct perception of Reality is nothing to do with a mental exercises in the ‘’safety net’’ of your desk or a lab. The sincere practitioner, doesn’t matter if he is a yogi or a sufi or whatever is his he/she, abandons any mental support and intellectual comfort and makes the lab his own body, where he gives himself consciously into the flames of knowing the unknown. Unfortunately you have no idea what it is to go through the process. It is only when the hero is ‘’back to this world’’ he will speak using the existing norms of the language to be the guiding light to the others.

* * *

Suffice to add is that you have no clue of what the real meaning of the word Tantra means beyond the distorted views prevalent in the west and even India itself for as long as a thousand years.

I am not going to reveal you the essence of the term for you are not ripe yet to understand it. Yet you ought to know that both Tantra & Mantra are just tools, just like a screwdriver, unless someone is willing to undo the tight bolts of his psychic knots with the bare hands. Well good luck with that, but remember when you’ll twist your fingers blue to numbness you may consider going back to the tools.

Let me remind you that I’ve expressed my admiration to the scientific methods and results implied by those scientists who are also practitioners. I’ve listed the links to those inspiring individuals yet you choose to ignore them. Do you know why ?

Well, no need to fell so deeply threatened, by the achievements of your colleagues. For if you find the heart to share the joy of their genius you’ll thus invite that genius to do the work through you.

With Love and Hope to you on the path to know your Self.

igor

Dear Avtar,

“One could teach high school physics in a more integrated and wholesome way to enhance wisdom and maturity in children.”

Perhaps this has already started. To me a more integrated and wholesome way means that things are seen from two sides in an objective way.

Physics up till now has been a very one-sided (left brain) way of looking at nature. Perhaps this is the reason that so few women want to study it.

To be honest, to me it seemed rather dull too :).

So integrated physics in high school should be more enlivened by practical experiences by which one can also use ones intuition. Thinking with the whole brain means integration to me.

And I believe that the above is a “path” teachers in high school should follow to more integrate physics with what really happens in nature, including even art.

For instance my pet subject is the labyrinth because it is a geometric pattern found in nature; one can derive mathematics from it; it can be directly experienced in numerous ways, amongst others by drawing the pattern on paper, on the sand of a beach and walking it, designing it with stones, making a complete artwork of it. In short it is a learning tool with so many simple possibilities; it can even be used as a brain trainer, to integrate the left and right brain.

I have written a few essays about it and am now busy setting up my own website. I am not a professional teacher but would like to present information that might in future be integrated in a more wholesome way of education in general.

For me this is a beginning; one has to start somewhere :).

I am looking forward to a more in depth explanation of your integrated vision of physics.

Always willing to learn,

Mieke

Mieke, the danger I see with using tools is that they are not seen merely as bridges....something one uses to get to the other side. Meditation has become so popular...but many don't know that there is actualy a goal that can be achieved through meditation....and that one can reach a state where meditation is no longer "needed".

I agree with Desh Kapoor. "Truth is a pathless land." to quote the philosopher J. krishnamurti.

Nice to see the author back to his confrontational best in response to his critic(s).

Many in the past pointed out that certain of the author's arguments related to science are fundamentally flawed. The same can be said about his selective interpretations of spiritual teachings to serve his purpose. Which is fine! With the same token he dismisses "quantum" aspects of mysticism and consciousness by people like Capra, Chopra, Goswami. He dismisses certain/every other path of realizing the Self to claim that his Objective theory of Absolute Truth HR is the Panacea of Pain which he, Avtar Singh brought down from the mountain top to dismiss All Ignorance (of HIS) which he extrapolates to everyone and everything else.

The path (if you will) of the contemplator who practices egoless awareness in life is a valid path as well as the meditator’s path of uniting with the egoless awareness. Both of these are working towards the same goal of total choiceless Awareness, and one without the other takes the aspirant significantly longer to find the ultimate state of being. Where as if they incorporate both paths with equal vigor, that is working on surrendering the egos attachments and disassociating with the mind and outside world, the way is quickened. I find they are both desperately needed, because a realized sage can be in a meditative state of pure witnessing and yet remain witnessing the world. He doesn’t bounce back and forth to Absolute space unless he applies himself in meditation by ignoring the mind and world altogether. Because the illusion is the present moment as well as the ego, and whether you are in the “now” of egoless awareness doesn’t matter for the “now” is the problem. That’s where formless meditating (ritualess and mantraless) comes in to play to take you beyond the egoless awareness (the witness). I also denounce rituals and dogmas for they continue to enslave one to the body/mind complex (ego). ~Kurt~

P.S. Mantras and Tantras are tools to help in meditating but all tools must be abandoned eventually to find home.

Hi Vivian,

I understand what you mean. But there is nothing mystical or dangerous about the labyrinth. It has always been confused with a maze.

It has been wrongly understood because it has been laid down in churches.

I have kept myself busy in many ways with the labyrinth during the past five years. I have written down all my experiences and am making a website of it. Still takes some more weeks to have it all incorporated.

I am not going to sell anything, just write down my experiences for people who are interested to read, either to learn from it or to be amused :).

Only thing I wanted to say is, that it has helped me in so many ways to discover my own creativity. It has become a kind of creative passion.

I totally agree with you, perhaps this is only my way of living my life to the fullest. I have discovered sides of myself that were unknown to me.

And what is the purpose in life?

To me: go and investigate everything and keep the good, meaning get to know Oneself or get to know myself and keep the things that are nourishing for myself.

It is different for everyone. I just want to share my enthusiasm but am aware that it might just not be someone elses "path" :).

I am on this website to learn, that is why I joined it three years ago in the first place.

And I already learnt a lot and made good friendships here :)

Love,

Mieke

Mieke, kind Heart

Apologies for ''ignoring'' your post, # 17, in fact I wasn't, I was carefully reading all your comments not only on the current topic. As always your views are precious in it's transcendent delectable way.

Do not worry your labyrinth idea is being repeatedly overlooked, it is the nature of the blog, too fast for its own good. I should restrain from passing the judgement. I wonder if people have the time and incentive to check the links suggested.

Such is the nature of this kind of communication. What offered freely is often neglected beware of that.

Don't forget I've witnessed the ridicule of the qualities which lay at the basis of man's existence, qualities such as Ayurveda, Tantra, Mantra Yoga and Vedic knowledge in general.

I carefully choose my words yet I cannot help but spill it out: it seems, there is still this superstitious notion of man's nature somehow being faulty or imperfect, that human mind and sense of self has to be fought, it is rather surprising how far behind so many people can be in their primitive and quiet naive support of that notion. Today when that knowledge has been entirely revealed and brought back to humanity to make a use out of it. Safe for the few who don't need to be mentioned they know well what has been said.

I would love to share some of the intuitive thoughts in the way the labyrinth could develop, but perhaps it's better to do it directly to your personal email box. I am finalizing my work before the school holiday and soon will have much more time on my hand.

With Love & Joy

igor

Hi Igor,

"What offered freely is often neglected beware of that."

Yes, I am totally aware of that. Only the sun in the sky shines for free :).

You know, i blog here now for almost 3 years and when I comment, it is spontaneously. But I also have understood that most of the time one is his/her own teacher and student by commenting here.

And at the same time learning from others.

I would love it when more of our experiences could be shared instead of being convinced of ones own truth. In this way we could learn so much from each other.

Well, in about a month or so I hope to have my own Website ready and if you want to read it you can go there. Will let you know by that time.

How it will develop? I haven't the faintest idea but have some ideas in my head.

I will find out for sure by walking the labyrinth regularly :)

You are definitely in your passion, good luck with that!

Me, am in mine with may I say: sometimes even choiceless awareness :)

Much love to you,

Mieke

Dear Mieke, I am sure your intents are pure : )

I too share with others my "findings" and what has helped me to get where I am at....where ever that is...and if others care to know. It is the joy of sharing. It is reaching out...spilling over.

I don't really know why I am here. I have asked myself that question many times. How does it serve me? Do I need to share? Am I still seeking? Am I bored? I don't know the answer...but I do know I am here LOL

Hi Vivian,

Main thing is to have a good time together.
Sometimes be a bit more serious, sometimes lots of fun too.

I am here too and always on my way at the same time, because if I stand still nothing happens :)

Mieke

Just to say that I am finding the conversations on this post extremely interesting, as well as thought provoking. Thanks!

“The truth (Absolute Space) is a pathless land.” How true that is, but to get there it takes a sincere earnest effort in spirituality with a round the clock vigilance. The effort it takes to get you to the truth can be considered the path, however in the end and faced with the truth all concepts are rendered meaningless, and your left with nothingness in a pathless land. Nonetheless to recognize the false as false and your determination applied to finding the truth is the path or the way that many have taken. We could use the Tao word for the path which is “The Way” and we could use a different word for the ego such as “The Personal Identity” or “Negative Attachments” if that makes everyone happier. Maybe we should make our own glossary, or maybe we should offer a certain amount of leeway for each author to use the words they want, and we give them that grace. As in life we need to label certain issues to recognize them as defining problems in our life so we can work past them. If we don’t, we won’t understand the issue fully enough to get past it, so recognizing the blockage is the first step towards recovery. Spirituality is the same way, but we can give each blogger the leeway to use their own words as a way of communicating spiritual topics. ~Kurt~

P.S. Just thought it would be good to find a common ground.

Hi Kurt,

There is so much common ground on this website. Unfortunately it has become such a large database that one is hardly able to find back that what might be very appropriate in discussions like the above.

I remember we made a large glossary when discussing Holistic Quantum Relativity on this Intentblog.

Unfortunately there were people there in that time period, so convinced of their own opinion, that they did not want to work together in exploring the subject.

I myself quitted the discussion also because I did so much work on it and that was appreciated, but when I brought in my own vision, that was not appreciated because that was not the intention.

There had to be one basic truth and that was the truth of the so-called Masters. Something else was not discussable.

So I have already learnt that it is very difficult to really nail down a common ground.

Having fun exchanging experiences without the need of being right for me is a great way and kept me present on this blog up till now.

Me personally do not think that i have to be conscious of anything else than trying to live my life as creatively as possible.

Exchanging views with one another here has given me a great learning curve and i hope that some might have learnt something from me.

Isn't this what it is all about?

Love, Mieke

[There had to be one basic truth and that was the truth of the so-called Masters. Something else was not discussable.]

Bravo Mieke, you have arrived!

Harb

Thanks Mieke, Well noted, I’ll stand down.

Hi Harb and Kurt,

Now I AM standing still in the middle lol. Blushing, without knowing what to say really, other than going to work very hard to get that heartphone website online.

All in the scheme of things Harb :)

Thanks so much for everything!

Much love,

Mieke

All of the conceptual formulations that are
discussed and debated here are relative manifestations existing as surface waves
of thought/vibration.
Pure Essence is the underlying constituent of
everything that exists and is presented here.
To defend any viewpoint and impose that same relative temporal manifestation upon anyone isn't
an indicator of cosmic awareness.
Let each reader determine what words best reflect
his or her conception of truth is.
From this perspective all concepts are relative manifestations of Unbounded Being.
That would include the concepts of truth, love etc. Any(thing) that can be (form)ulated in consciousness has relative meaning.
When one infuses Pure Existence with mind then
Pure Existence is seen as all things.
Even though the mind is a manifestation of the relative existence such an infused mind isn't lost
within relative conceptual frameworks.
Impressions of experience don't have the same attractive pull.
The universe is experienced for what it is.
Todd

Hey Vivian

...and that one can reach a state where meditation is no longer "needed". I was skimming through and saw this.

I agree. Though it's not popular to say. I think once you realize that there is no absolute truth then what is the point of searching for it. Why not enjoy being here no matter what surrounds you. Just enjoy what 'is' without the need to know why?

When I realized this, I no longer needed to ask the questions to find the answer. I get to ask questions just for the sake of curiosity, because it doesn't really matter what the answer is or if there is an answer.
There could have been a Big Bang or not.
There could be a God or not.
I could be real or not, it doesn't really matter.

Meditation can just be a good way to relax. Not a way to find the 'truth'.

There could be a truth or not, what does it matter?

I still believe that pain and suffering are a gift, just like joy and contentment.

Peace to me is not the absence of pain and suffering but the embracing of them.
I think the Buddha laughed because he knew this.

Enlightenment to me is no more than the acceptance of all things. I learnt this from Mieke

I believe when one lets go of everything then everything is there to be embraced and enjoyed fully. Until then one has to work to enjoy anything.

my three sense

derek

#34
Mieke, your not knowing what to say, your the name of the website 'heartphone' all point towards silence, which again point towards the fact that you have arrived! You have become The Bliss, you hav ebecome The Dance of Life!

#35
Pure Essence, Level7! Your words could send one into Samadhi.

#36
Peace to me is not the absence of pain and suffering but the embracing of them.

Absolutely true, Derek! You have become Buddha yourself. (As they say, "To know God is to be God," here I am amending this a little for you to say " To know Buddha is to be Buddha!)

Bravo, you all! Harb

Hey Harb
I believe the breath of Buddha containing the very essence of his being is still floating around in our atmosphere. We all breath him in and get a little of his, spark of life.

thoughts from the middle

derek

Just wanted to say that IB has been extremely enjoyable and fascinating these last few threads - this one, the Astrological Intents, even OT. Thought-provoking exchanges, great analyses on the exchanges :-), some whimsy from our resident free spirit and a little lynching in return :-), the welcome return of a colorful character... My thanks to everybody who participates...

Mieke, your "exchanging experiences without the need to be right" is especially wondrous.

Well, thank you very much dear Swordsman.

It seems that i received wings somehow because my website is ready and I was able to upload it this afternoon (dutch time) without any problem.

It has a Dutch and an English part and I must say I am much relieved that this little baby has been born.

It took me five years to dare to publish it :)

It has been made in a sharing way for everyone who is interested in the subjects.

I would like to invite everyone who wants to, to have a look at it:

http://www.heartphone.org

I made it more or less from scratch and I am always in for advice how it might be improved. There is an email address under Links on the labyrinth pages.

Everyone, have a wonderful, relaxed weekend!

Greetings, from the heartphone,

Mieke