Hola. It seems every person I've ever met that claims to be an atheist, has a certain something about them, its almost as if they know something and its much to profound and sacred to discuss, really I think they may be on to something..

I’m baaaack . . .

Razor wire, iron bars, and patriotic guards could not forever keep me away (well; actually it was touch and go there for quite awhile!!). Maybe talk a bit more details with those concerned on tomorrow’s open thread . . .

Timely post Dr. Chopra. I have just experienced a setting in which the Christian understanding of God is the only way in which us fallen creatures can approach the splendor of creation and the hope of spiritual redemption. And many of my fellow felonious “Christian” brothers would even get downright violent if the divinity of Jesus was questioned; let alone the mightiness of this “great” American empire. Guards and cons alike were quite ready, and more than able to beat me down!

Bummer trip in many different ways!

Glad to be back with our intentblog family. Do some backreading on threads of months’ past, catch up on much needed reading in general, and do my best to find a positive place for me in this world. I did touch the hearts and minds of some wayward youngsters though, I just wish I had something more to offer them – I wish I could free them from their addictions, sorrows, and loneliness as I likewise heal and grow myself – . . .

Well. Hello all! We’ll all talk more.

God bless

Be(lie)f = fiction = story = entertainment = pretend = make believe = experience story

Atheists may value a more dramatic story experience; these characters are alone in a wilderness they must strive to overcome with only their own hands and mind.

Which character is most outstanding in their achievements? The one getting help from God or the one going it alone?

It is all about accolades…. when we return home from the play, the infinite play.

Humans are greater than God. What challenge did an omnipotent and omniscient being ever have to overcome? Has God ever faced a life or death choice? Unless of course he were to become a human being, then God might earn some merit.

Of course he would need to forget who he really was... to be human. Of course it might be fun to wake up and realize that you were God and still be in the game, but he wouldn't want to be sure, perhaps some doubt or distractions to keep the charade and the entertainment and challenge going.

William James, far away, but never forgotten.

The closest you have came to the truth in this lifetime is at the moment before you took your first breath when you were seperated from your mother at birth.

Ever since then you have been drifting away from it.

I would Insult you beyond words by telling you the truth as it completely rules out what you have learned to become.

Feeling insulted means to feel that the self has violated..

Real understanding is the ultimate insult because it is the recognition that the self is totaly false. It is like the make up of the clown that when removed... You will not recognise who the clown was.

You are a clown!

Belief is the clowns makeup also as it makes up the identity of the false sense of I am.

I am a Christian, He was the Prophet, This was sacred this was Evil, I am a Jew and so on and so forth.

All the Makeup on a clowns face you see.

The deepest truths in the Universe are the hardest things to accept, because you cannot believe in them - You can only be them unconditionaly and a belief is just a condition. Being is the state of love. Believing is the state of wandering lost in ideas of Being.

Embrace the ultimate Insult and know you as a seperate independent egoic self are NOTHING.

know that your beliefs are NOTHING.

Then you will have NOTHING left but Love.

Love

NOTHING XX

Hello Craig, how are you doing? Great to see you back here :)

Hi Simon, would a woman experience things differently?

I experienced a certain time in my life that I was really nothing, but did not feel very comfortable with it. It was only when I discovered the well inside that I started to feel comfortable.

"How will believe evolve next?" - Deepak Chopra

Well, one can never predict the future :)

In my view the journey does not begin with the will to believe but with the well that is spontaneously experienced inside. It can be triggered, because in my experience it was triggered by a certain convergence of circumstances at the age of 34. I cannot lay a finger on what exactly triggered it anymore.

But from what I have read here on IB in the last 3 years, almost everyone who blogs or comments here has in one way or another experienced this well. So I must assume genes have something to do with this.

And if one has experienced it then one starts to believe, to believe in oneself in the first place and then to believe in that what comes out of oneself. And one’s surroundings will confirm that one is living from that well inside.

Hard to explain but in one sentence: Once the well has been experienced, the will to believe is automatically there. And one develops faith, faith in oneself, not in a God specifically, but in some sort of sacred place in oneself.

If one is able to create from that sacred place, it is always in line with that well and it will manifest itself in ones surroundings.

Well, at least this is my experience from the last 28 years.

Love from the heartphone, (the well?)

Mieke

Look at the one who notices the beliefs Mieke.

What is that?

Who feels uncomfortanle?

It is totaly uncomfortable to know the truth Mieke. Make no mistake about that.

The more uncomfortable you feel with the truth the more that shows you how much you need the Ego to be in the world...

But the Ego is temporary anyway eventually you and me and everyone else will have to face that uncomfortability when death taps the ego on the shoulder.

Pull up your anchor Woman! and drift with the tide of eternal being, forget about uncomfortable or comfortable and be at one with eternal self.

Know no fear as you are not flesh and bone.

Love

The Sailor xx

Welcome back, Craig! I kept faith in you, bud!

Looking back through the ages and pages of IB? OMG!!!

What have I...what have we come to here today? Geez!

Shame is so unbecoming...but haiku? Me2? Hello?

Well hello there sailor :)

We women were never allowed to have an ego (at least my generation) I feel very comfortable at this moment in time with an ego of my own and I am not afraid of death.

I know that I am as much of flesh and bone as I am a spirit. I am rooted into this earth with a rope that goes back to the inner core of the earth but at the same time am lifted up at the top of my head into the sky above. The I resides in the middle, so I am a wholesome trinity, just like the earth, the sun and the moon, or my inner father, mother and child :).

Lol Simon, you are entitled to your own believes. I am entitled to mine.

By the way, great story you have written :)
Enjoyed it very much!

Love, Mieke

Atheists WILL what
WILL exists in mind only
Be leaf me, Tree WILL

Hi Craig, one noticed the absence of your words, you know there is a far worse place, The Void, one spent an eternity there absolute nothing, no one to share a thought with.. One would have given anything to be in the worst place on earth knowing about them now.

So I AM there in the void and I think "How Long.." there was a brilliant flash and all hell broke loose.. to make a long story short a never-ending story was born, one had inadvertently generated time.

Now one found solace in the place that was once a prison, The Void, an escape from the story, next thing one knows to the story I AM returned.

When I view creation, remembering being alone in the void, I get this feeling, I called it love.

“Another stone dropped in the pool of mind”

I Googled that phrase in quotes and there were zero occurrences, it seems to be a first born.

Imagine that, the first place it was written on the Internet was here on IntentBlog.

"Ripples of the divine"

This phrase currently has 5 occurrences on the Internet

Simon, it's been a lovely day in jolly Albion, isn't it ?

By the way, the death has nothing to tap ego on the shoulder as ego is departing from the body hand in hand with mind and all its desires. Ego belongs to the subtlest body of the three.

First and the gross one is physical - the bodily tissues and the organs. The second is subtler and is called astral - the vital force and energy wheels. The third one is the subtlest - the karmic, it is here the ego is hiding with all its invisible information.

Just in case you want to know who is tapping whom on the shoulder.

Sweet dreams and lots of Love

igor

Hey Deepak
I no longer have the will to believe.
Does this mean the gene can turn off?

derek, drifting out to sea......................

Hi Deepak,

Thanks for intentblog and your thought provoking reflections about an issue that will become very important in the future. Maybe it is a need to believe, rather than a will to believe. Also “The rational mind cannot go beyond words and concepts” is not appear to be a fair representation of the truth.

Sorry for digressing a bit. In retrospect it appears unfortunate that “the last message” was ever written, followed by “a letter to all my friends and critics (also my friends) on intentblog”. Somehow we got our signals crossed and never had our disagreement ironed out in an amicable way. In fairness you may have been to busy and did not monitor the people who sensor IB. Your blog was never the same the rcb episode and it even appeared that posters with pure scientific minds (atheist) were harassed.

Our little bout about a believer’s faith (belief in a supernatural power that control human destiny) vs. atheistic reality (Einstein’s state of the world and the universe as it really is, rather than as one wants it to be) never had a chance. It was interfered with, time and again, by the censor’s ”might is right” syndrome. Seldom were questions answered New Agers claim to have answers for, but often the questions were removed and the questioner banned from further participation at IB, hence the ID salad.

To the new age truth seekers, please consider reading CS+DDHPZ to mention only a few. These guys have answers to fundamental questions, and the great thing is, these answers are based on evidence and reason, not claims and speculation. These great minds also feel that doubt, skeptisism and a bit of critical thinking are essential for any truth seeker. I may be mistaken but even Dr Chopra seems to espouse science with a little more conviction than in the past.

It would be nice if Deepak could give us his thoughts on the above. That way we could part company in a classy way.

I cannot sign my name because your “ID catcher” may not let me through.

I wish everybody at IB and elsewhere health, happiness, goodwill and reason and maybe, and I know I am biased, a bigger desire for evidence. It was nice while it lasted but to me IB has lost its flavour and its charm.

Seek - make an effort or attempt
Knowledge – Often the opposite of ignorance
Enlightenment - education that results in understanding
Peace - the absence of mental stress or anxiety

Sorry, the third line should read “does not appear”…

#14 A mouthful of sea-water and a bow/wave to you, Derek.
I see thou art.

Here we ALL are, bobbing about like corks, as is.
Cork comes from tree. Tree be leaves. Some bark up the right one. What's wrong?
Can oo, anyone?

The experience of the expansion of 'consciosuness' does not depend upon belief, positive or negative, but upon one's ripeness in terms of evolution.

Moreover, it really takes one beyond all isms including atheism and even theism.

Absolutely brilliant, Harb !

Nothing is more conducive to the experience of consciousness. Consciousness is homogenous in its entire expression.

For me "belief" is in the head and "knowing" is of the body. Wonderment is a whole body experience. Wonder cannot be known at higher chakras without lower and it cannot be experienced at lower chakras without higher.

Wonder is an integrated expanse of me/you/us with Divine Creator.

As part of creation we are part of Divine Creator.

Does this make one happy? Does this make one sing? Or does blockage, somewhere in the system, prevent this Life flow?

Trish~~

Hi Trish,

It all has to do with that so-called Kundalini energy that flows by itself like a river inside a person. Sometimes it meanders to the right, then to the left, but always arriving in the middle, creating a vortex for you to replenish :)

I cannot but talk in the form of symbols. But nowadays they have discovered vortex energy, it seems to be the next clean energy to safe this planet.

By the way, cell phones do produce it too. Look at the entry of KAN at Open Thread.

Love,

Mieke

Yo ho ho there Ed

My head is bowed
My bow is lowered
My bow doest break the waves a sunder
A bow was tied round her golden curls
She waves goodbye

My heart is bowed by the weight it carries
As she pulls her bow cross the strings and plays
Then waves of joy and streams of light into the salty brine I fly

Yo, I've been chewing on that dissemble quote from Bacon. There's still some on my plate and I'm still hungry.

Trees are my symbol of strength and wisdom
Corks are they're playful expression

derek

I have to comment on this since I have lived with a man who professes to be an atheist all my life, my dad.

I compare all humanity who wish to believe in God like an infant who believes that he/she has a mother who wishes to nurse him and has a breast upon which to feed. I believe the desire to survive is so innate that each infant surely realizes that there is mother's milk somewhere.

Apparently, some infants learned otherwise, which is how I compare aetheists to those infants. Somehow they were deserted somewhere sometime...just a thought.

#22 Without a doubt, Uncle Tree is a corker!

As an atheist, I am perhaps a bit out of place on this blog, it seems. However, I will put my two cents in.

It is intriguing that someone would call themselves an atheist but also say that they believe in some sort of God - it seems to be a contradiction of terms. I would guess that it may be because they don't believe in the stereotypical gray-bearded man in the sky kind of uchgod.

Anyway, I personally would never have responded that way. I do not believe in any sort of god or force greater than myself. Nor do I feel any lack in my life or need to try to believe in something greater. I belive strongly in myself and in humanity, with no need to bring greater forces into the mix.

I disagree with arizonasunset's analogy because it implies that I, as an atheist, am lacking something in my life that I would be better off having. I do not feel "deserted" or that I am lacking anything. You, personally, may be better off in life believing in something, while I, personally, am better off not believing in something. I think belief is too individual of a thing to be able to make generalizations about what the experience of belief or non-belief is like.

Great post #6 Simon. Your posts always hit home for me. Thank you for being here : )

Mieke,

Good luck with having your cake and eaing it..

;-)

Save some for me will you....

I had an abstract experience today..

During the night my family and close friends called me from Canada as they were doing the Canada Day celebration thing. With no regard for them being on the west coast and the eight hour time difference might I add! So come 7am here in the UK I got up for work as normal and felt pretty good considering being kept up half the night.

I meditated for a short time and then drove to work. Where I live is a Village that has a main road right through its centre that is ded straight for about half of a mile. I make this journey most days and I do it on Auto pilot as it is just the same place that I am pass through every day.

This morning the first thing I saw was an old guy who I have seen for years, He has kind of been one of these people who I have spoken to in different places as he has had numerous Jobs in the area. Now he is a Lollipop man helping school kids accross the road. but he has been a Milkman, a taxi driver, road sweeper at some time in my life I have came into contact with him for some reason.

So then I travel a bit further down the straight road and I begin to see faces I have not seen in years, it was wierd because it ranged from people I was at school with to people I worked with and as I went further on there were kids going to school that I went to school with..

The strangest thing was that I didnt even stop to think about them it was all subliminal in a sense.

at the end of the village is the junction that joins the main highway and it is here where I turned off and joined the flow of traffic.

As I was joining the traffic I just realised I had experienced something quite incredible..yet I hardly even noticed it because it was me I had experienced.

"I am" is the Journler for some

But "I" am the Journey

Love xx

I was rereading some William James, and while I remember being quite impressed the first time I read some of his stuff, not so much now-a-days. Interesting.

We are a very needy species indeed. Of course there is a multitude of stuff to quote, let us just suffice with this rather cool tidbit he offers while rationalizing his WASPish belief system: "To preach scepticism [Brit spelling] to us as a duty until 'sufficient evidence' for religion be found is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in the presence of the religious hypothesis, that to yield to our fear of its being error is wise and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true . . . And by what, forsooth, is the supreme wisdom of this passion warranted? Dupery for dupery, what proof is there that dupery through hope is so much worse than dupery through fear" James writes while contrasting the empirical way to that of "religious hypothesis" (“William James: Essays in Pragmatism,” ed. Castell, Alburey. New York: Hafner, 1948).

But I am most certainly down with Nisargadatta Maharaj! "In due course we shall come back to the starting point. Time cannot take us out of time, as space cannot take us out of space. All you get by waiting is more waiting. Absolute perfection is here and now, not in some future, near or far. The secret is in action -- here and now. It is your behaviour [sic] that blinds you to yourself. Disregard whatever you think yourself to be and act as if you were absolutely perfect -- whatever your idea of perfection may be. All you need is courage."

Yeah baby!

Click on me name for the link to the entirety of "I Am That."

Dominus vobiscum

Thank you for the welcomes Heartphone, Keith, and Richard! Thank you.

Dear Vivian,

I am Glad I hit home for you....

I bet you say that to all the boys though.

;-)

Love

Simon xx

You know what is one of the most incredible things You can hear....

It is a heart beating.....

Recently I held my son close to me and I had my ear to his chest. He is nine and as strong as a bull, bursting with health and life. What is beutiful about a heart beat is that the thing that makes it beat with such relentless pulse is totaly unseen. It can not be pointed to. It is not a thing even. The spark of life that makes that thing beat inside of you is invisible and is the same energy that makes the sun burn bright in the sky each day.

at its core it is nothing, yet it makes great things appear from nothing.

You are all great and I love you

Love

Simon xx

So true Simon. I am a grandmother to a two month old baby boy. I love how "Baby energy" pulls me in and I become one with it. I also enjoy watching others get "pulled" in ....even though mostly unconsciously to them : ) Baby Power LOL

Good post #8 empyrius : )

Great experience Simon and thanks for sharing your day with us.

I woke up yesterday to a crystal right above my head. Even though it was not a certain shape it was defind. I could see different facets where the light was brighter on some spots.

I first thought strange...then looked around the room to see what could possibly reflecting the "light", but saw no source. I continued to look at it and it continued to appear. Then my attention went to my husband, who had just stepped into the bedroom and we talked a little, he walked back out and when I looked up to the cealing where the crystal appeared...it was gone.

Ya,Ya thats all great, warm and fuzz, YOU give up your favorite things, your figure, good nights sleep, smoking ( my very favorite thing ) when are the men gonna have the children? You might even have a womb, you know, check it out! do us all a favor! I am having a hard time being joyful about this. And why should I, it seems nothing is sacred any more! And where the hell is the father? who knows, in some third word country inpregnating the women over there! ya ya who care right? no one, no one cares.

Sorry about the bitch, but that what there

ToSbsanon,

To make generalizations about faith is probably not a good idea, but I actually do believe that the idea of a God high in the clouds is probably more true than an aetheist would consider. But that is because I have literally experienced the image of a giant Jesus type image hovering all around me at one time while walking here at the ranch. Most of religious faith is simply that, testimony to some event in life that one has endured or enjoyed.

And yes, I do believe that anyone who has not enjoyed that kind of experience lacks the faith that I have in it.

For a fact, I believe that a Deity exists which is greater than any of humanity can comprehend, again due to the personal experience of realizing its presence around me.

Just as blind men cannot appreciate the visual experience of a rainbow, those who reject the notion of greatness in God never will be able to experience that kind of presence that made itself known to me.

But I do not try to create an organization of faith or believers in my telling of it. It was just an occasion where I came to learn of it. It is very precious to me. I am a mere cell in the complexity of life, and that is true humility to realize that and to appreciate it. I love it,knowing that I along with the rest of humanity, am equal in size to each and every one, but that there is that Deity which is greater than the sum of all of us.

ToSbsanon,

For a fact, I believe that a Deity exists which is greater than any of humanity can comprehend, again due to the personal experience of realizing its presence around me.

Just as blind men cannot appreciate the visual experience of a rainbow, those who reject the notion of greatness in God never will be able to experience that kind of presence that made itself known to me.

But I do not try to create an organization of faith or believers in my telling of it. It was just an occasion where I came to learn of it. It is very precious to me. I am a mere cell in the complexity of life, and that is true humility to realize that and to appreciate it. I love it,knowing that I along with the rest of humanity, am equal in size to each and every one, but that there is that Deity which is greater than the sum of all of us.

You do not need to believe in a god to experience, bliss, ecstacy, awe, wonder, grace, love, transcendent states, a feeling of eternity, or to have visions, or to attain wisdom, insight, clear vision, or a profound connection to the cosmos.

A transcendent human experience proves that humans can experience transcendent states. It is not proof of god.

Sorry to say, but claiming you have "literal experience" of a deity is not proof of the separate existence of that deity beyond your projected experience.

If you are a Hindu you might "see" Krishna,. You might "see" Durga. Maybe in ancient Eqypt people "saw" Horus, or the Persians "saw" Ahura Mazda.

Maybe some Aztecs saw Quetzalcoatl.

Why didn't the Persians see Jesus? Why don't Christians see Quetzalcoatl or Horus? All have at one time or another been believed in as "the" God that ruled over the entire Universe.

For me, there's probably a majority of existence that I either have not perceived and/or cannot comprehend.

But I have to say, it kind of makes me ashamed of my fellow spiritual travelers to hear the opinions that you espouse against atheists.

Ideas that an atheist can never be a whole person, or that they must have not bonded with their mothers (read: "handicapped").

Or even that they have to be "believing atheists" to be acceptable.

A "believing atheist". Is that like being a "a little bit" white or something?

Athiests are whole humans, as whole as you and me. And yes, they fall in love and experience the full range of human emotions and drives.

I really don't understand the investment of thinking of atheism as a disease, handicap, or deficiency.

Or saying stuff like "who really knows the state of unbelief that an atheist feels?"

Whoa, not us "normal" people! Nope. Nosiree!

Prejudice can be an insidious thing, and some of its manifestations can come unconsciously.

Atheists are whole people who can have happy, fulfilling existences, just like anyone else.

If they choose not to believe in god, so what? The idea that an atheist is less than a believer somehow doesn't really say anything about atheism at all.

But it sure implies some unhealthy stuff about the "believers" who say such things.

#37 Thanks for that yogi-one. Like most things it works both ways.
Not sure I like the word unhealthy.
I feel it's the inherent dualism in our being. The criticism of another's belief is perhaps a cover for the balancing of relative unbelief, (lack of faith?)
in oneself.
Simon, of course, puts it another way. I'd agree we actually have nothing other than what we are free to create. We do not normally decry a person's art. We should, perhaps, likewise celebrate our seeming belief differences rather than get stuck in entrenchment. We might be surprised by where that increasing fluidity would take us.

Hugs for Tammy.

Whenever two or more
If we gather together
Just please believe in me

Hello there dearest Simon,

I gladly share a very large piece of that cake with you :)
Have sent you an email.

And Tammy, big ((HUGS)) to you, you are a strong woman. We women are a tough species and hardly know our own infinite possibilities. It will happen by and by :)

Love,

Mieke

Ed,

Have you ever been to where I am from?

Dear Mieke....

My E-mail address is temp out of use due to a technical fault. Can you re-send the e-mail to simon_freejohn@yahoo.co.uk and I will pick it up from there.

Love

Simon xx

#41 Where's that, Simon? (do they speak English?)
Glaswegian is about my limit!

lol, not sure whether yours was a trick question, but straight answer is no, not to stay. I do have some connections with Sunderland?
Walking break in Cumbria has been my nearestness. A refreshing rucksack shandy at the top of some of those high peaks, does mean that no one looks down on one :))

Cheers, cobber!

Deepak Chopra has hit a new low for me with this post. Just when I got the feeling that he has moved on from his past crusades against science and skepticism... here we go again.

Lets begin with my answer to the question:
_________________________________________________
An article in the Washington Post On Faith section in response to their

question: "According to a new Pew survey, 21% of American atheists

believe in God or a universal spirit, 12% believe in heaven and 10%

pray at least once a week. What do you make of this?"
_________________________________________________

Eric Gorski is the AP reporter, who spread the "news" about 21% of

atheists believe in God. This is partially the fault of the wording on

the Pew Research website, and partially the fault of poor journalism.

He used the wrong table.

The actual atheist numbers are 73% do not believe, 6% don't

know/refuse/other, 6% not too certain/not at all certain, 7% fairly

certain, and 8% absolutely certain.

The question was worded:
Do you believe in God or a universal spirit? [IF YES, ASK:] How certain

are you about this belief? Are you absolutely certain, fairly certain,

not too certain, or not at all certain?

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-belief-in-god-or-universal-spir

it-by-religious-tradition.pdf

Many people who call themselves "atheists", based on principle don't claim that they are "absolutely certain" tht there is no creator God, not because they are "keeping their option open" but purely based on principle. These are called weak atheists or agnostics. Carl Sagan for ex. belongs to that category.

Moreover, the 21% of atheists who "beleive in God" you get from the

Pew's Summary of Key Findings below...

Link:
religions.pewforum.org/reports

(table 2)

is broken down further with 6% beveling in a "Personal God," 12% believing in an "Impersonal Force" 3% "other/don't know."

Setting aside, for a moment, that "universal spirit" is so "squishy" that it is meaningless, the results are being totally mis-characterized by several news outlets. Its been widely reported that "92% of Americans believe in God". That's not what the survey results say.

If i did a survey where i asked "is either red or blue your favorite color?" and 92% said yes, could i say that red was the favorite color of 92% of the people? what's worse is that the breakdown (personal god vs. impersonal force) is readily available in the study but, from what I've seen and heard, is not being mentioned. It's discouraging because it could have the effect of making doubters and/or non-believers feel less willing to express their doubts and/or lack of belief.

Hot Air, the right wing blog spread the word that "12% believe in heaven and 10% pray at least once a week."

I encourage to read the Pew Survey details before 'beveling' any characterization of the numbers.

Here's the link:

http://religions.pewforum.org

Basically, it is a pointless poll about 'beleif', which could have been done better.

************************

Deepak Chopra writes:

___________
"The Pew poll results could simply be a curiosity."
___________

Yes.

----------------------------
"Without a definition of “God” or “atheism,” who really knows the state of unbelief that an atheist feels?"
----------------------------

Whether an atheist does/can believe in God/gods isn't the issue, is it? Self-identifying as an atheist doesn't imply 'being' an atheist under any particular definition.

_____________________
"If you take the common image of God as a patriarch sitting above the clouds, it’s entirely possible to reject a personal God while retaining
a religious spirit. Einstein spent years explaining this as his position, and few understood what he meant. The fact that Judaism forbids physical representations of God and that Christ describes no such image, either, hasn’t stopped the literalists. They demand comforting pictures and mindlessly equate “abstract” with “Godless.” By the same standard Buddhists are atheists, along with non-dual Hindus and many other flavors of Eastern spirituality."
___________________

Well yes. But, now I have to wonder, if you Deepak Chopra even cared to take a peek at(if not study in detail) the Pew Survey before answering the question, instead of taking off from your familiar cliff.

The survey shows that
Over all 92 % of all Americnas beleive in God(Personal/Impersonal)

Sub Categories:
60% believe in a Personal God concept.
25% in an impersonal force.
7% other/don't know.

50%, 42%, 45% and 53% of Jewish, Muslim, Buddhists and Hindu respectively believe in an impersonal force over a personal god. This is basically a A or B survey.

Not surprisingly only 75% of Buddhist believe in God. While this number is 95-99 for those who identify themselves as Christians (of various sects.) And for Jewish people its 83, for Hindus and Muslims its 92.

Summary: religions.pewforum.org/reports

The point being, the Pew Survey categorizes Buddhist agnostics/atheists different from atheists and Secular religious/spiritualists and Agnostics.

----------
"Einstein spent years explaining this as his position, and few understood what he meant."
----------

Yes the religious people distorted his words to claim that he believed in a personal God. I don't know if Deepak Chopra fully understood what he meant though. Yes he didnn't beleive in a personal God.

In his own words:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

That debate is settled. Neither did he believe in a impersonal... or a Super Natural God or a Creator God.

His concept of God:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."

(He doesn't believe in a soul that survives physical death either, I shall save the quotes.)

This Dr. Chopra is the "STATE OF UNBELIEF" most atheist "FEEL."

Do you have a cure for this, too?

________________________
"Disapproval will never expunge “the will to believe,” and as familiar as William James’s phrase is, a mystery still hides behind it. Is the will to believe an automatic human trait, part of our genetic package? If so, as some geneticists believe, then what triggers the gene in some people but not in others?"
_________________________

William James is right. Deepak's interpretation of his quote and its relation to genetics is poor and seems willfully ignorant. As some one said recently on this blog... "all humans are gullible. It is a common trait shared by humans."(paraphrased)

One IB'er recently wrote in an Open Thread, "To ERR is Human" quoting an excellent essay from the William James Foundation

http://www.williamjames.com/Science/ERR.htm

"No analysis of the controversies surrounding the nature of the human spirit, and its propensity for greatness, would be complete without a realistic look at the human proclivity for folly."

One can be an excellent skeptic in one field but may be gullible in other fields. Even if there is a genetic predisposition to be more gullible among some believers, it is not something one must be proud of. I don't think beleif in God and gullibility are directly related either.

"One envisions the believing atheists captured in the Pew poll fighting against their inheritance like children of alcoholics against theirs. "

Amazing how Deepak Chopra labels people as "atheists" based on a survey result and extrapolate it to genetic determination of non-beleif.

Dr. Chopra's analogy works better with religious people and their inheritance of religious identity and values form their family.

And what have you to say about the good percentage of those who identify themsleves as Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist or
Unaffiliated who don't believe in a God(Personal/impersonal)? (See the Pew Survey)

Are they not fighting against their "inherited legacy"?

This number is vastly more than 2%(so called "beveling atheists" -- 21% of about 10%)

--------
"In the blossoming field of epigenetics, which studies how gene get triggered or suppressed, we are gaining a glimpse of many behaviors being passed down from one generation to the next, not as a matter of survival but because they mean something. In essence the will to believe, which can be traced back to prehistory, spread around the globe like a God virus – it could be as universal as art, another genetic trait that has zero value for survival but infinite value as
meaning."
----------

On can argue that the "need to believe"(rather than the will to believe) -- feel good -- is a self protecting mechanism of the human mind. It is shared by all humans. And what's great is that the genes that it might be triggered to make you gullible and believing in fairy tales and hallucinations, paranormal and perhpas in some concept of God, but they all depend on the experiences you have. If you grow up as a Muslim you are be more prone to have a beleif in a Muslim concept of God. In many countries, over the centuries, religion is not a choice. Similarly, the society plays a major role.

In the historical times when the beleif in God was prevalent, its not just about a philosophical understanding of a concept of God but the beliefs in supernatural gods and worship of natural elements and the animals they feared. This is clearly tied to survival as a civilization. Religion worked as tool of survival for a society. To make sense of the world supernatural God/gods were a convenient and easy explanation for things people didn't understand. Unfortunately, the same traditions continues in modern times with god-of-the-gaps arguments to support beliefs that are based on lack of evidence.

If you separate atheists form non-atheist in the US/the world and do a study of their DNA, it is more likely that you won't find any demarcation on the "gullibility" factor or the "will to believe" factor.

You can lead a perfectly MEANINGFUL LIFE being an atheist. If you think otherwise you are nuts or you have personal issues with some atheists you have encountered in your life.

Moreover your "will to believe" also depends on your survival! If you base your whole life and career on a certain beleif system, like say on New Age market, why would you want to give away those set beliefs? You would rather want to convince yourself in order to convince others about your beliefs.

______________________
"How will belief evolve next? Maybe these believing atheists are showing us the way, along with Einstein, beyond a personal God on to the shores of eternity."
_______________________

No, Dr. Chopra, Atheists like Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawkins, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennet, Stuart Kaufman etc are showing the way for so many including you.

I am an atheist. I 'believe' in the laws of psychics (both known and unknown.) I believe in my life-time ability to ride bicycle. I believe in verifiable evidence. Does that make me a believer. Then I am a "believing atheist." Like Einstein and Sagan.

On the other hand, I don't believe in paranormal, supernatural etc, I don't believe absolutely in my mental ability -- to remember certain things --etc. I know I can be tricked by my brain. Accepting this makes me more 'enlightened' rather than beveling what all my subjective experiences tells me are facts, when in certain cases verification can show that I have been mistaken. Einstein understood that. That's why he had so much admiration for the tool of science.

------------------------
"Einstein had his sights set on a secular spirituality that, he said, was most closely approximated by Buddhism. He believed that the universe contained a deepest layer of reality that couldn’t be rationally comprehended but only witnessed with awe and wonder. He famously said that great discoveries in science need this sense of wonder before the infinite."
-------------------------

Einstein said: "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so afr as our science can reveal it."

"My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. "

Indeed, Buddhist Philosophy and Non-dual Hindu Philosophy talks about NO BELIEFS or NON-BELIEFS. I hope the majority of New Agers rise to that level and embrace the non-dual philosophy rather than believing in crystal balls, prayer healing, reincarnation, souls etc. That will be a big shift for the positive.

___________
"To me, that implies a shift in consciousness. The rational mind cannot go beyond words and concepts, but consciousness can expand within itself without limits."
___________

You see the "shift" in only what you 'want' to perceive. (Pure) Consciousness as a philosophical/spiritual concept is just what it is. There is no shift. There is a shift in the social consciousness though. More Americans are abandoning fundamental religious views, and hopefully new age followers will follow this shift and grow more spiritually in the lines of non-dual philosophy of "no beleif" or "non beleif," rather than being insecure, and antagonist to others who don't share their views.

-------------------------------
"Whether accidentally or by intent, I hope at least a handful of believing atheists have set out on the journey that begins with the will to believe and ends beyond images, even beyond thought itself."
-------------------------------

It seems Deepak Chopra has taken the lessons of Karl Rove -- attack the strongest points of your opponents -- to heart. In typical Rove style he has used a misleading poll which he said "could simply be a curiosity" but goes on to speculate in a big way. He has reinforced the Us vs. Them divide between the Atheists and the rest, even going so far as to make a genetic argument, as if the "will to believe"(depends on the context) makes your life more meaningful (which is more silly than the now abandoned division of human races based on genetic differences.) He has used one of the popular atheists(Einstein) to criticize the atheists. Of course he uses poetic and emotionally appealing statements. Earth still revolves round the Sun, even though an artist might choose to depict Earth in the rings of Saturn.

Hi Simon,

So I noticed in the meantime by receiving it back :)

My own provider is also not working optimally, they have changed their name per 1st July, but for their customers that would not change anything. Am getting error messages one after the other today, sending and receiving emails.

Perhaps you might receive the email twice at your Yahoo address :)

Mieke xx

Hi Simon,

So I noticed in the meantime by receiving it back :)

My own provider is also not working optimally, they have changed their name per 1st July, but for their customers that would not change anything. Am getting error messages one after the other today, sending and receiving emails.

Perhaps you might receive the email twice at your other address :)

Mieke xx

And here it is the same too :)

Sorry for the double posting!
Admin, please remove one.

Mieke

Hey Freya,

Do you know what I believe?

In this way by stirring up this conversation and receiving all sorts of comments in all the different blogs, a new book of Deepak Chopra is already in the making lol

Not so difficult to come up with a title for it!

Love, Mieke

Last summer, here in England, I've been asked by friends to take part in their project of making a documentary film named ''Dinner with God'', for the (TV) Channel 4.

The main idea was to interview as diverse number of beings as possible, including very well known personalities from the fields of art, science, religion, entertainment as well as having people from the street so to speak, with the same set of questions on the topic of ''experiencing God''. There were also few notorious atheists invited to participate.

What I found out during the interviewing was quiet revealing to the way spiritual experiences are taken by those who might never had anything remotely close themselves to experience. For example, when attempting to relate the most profound experiences, basically permanently living in the presence of pure Energy (sound & light), which in my view had little to do with the earlier psychic range of experiences prior to them ( such as seeing the deity, flying out of body, levitating, having visions of distant places, cases of spontaneous healing etc.) I had to witness absent faces and a general sensation of misunderstanding mixed with possibility of pathology being the case.

Well, we know that what seems like impossibility on one level is a mystery on the next, while being altogether a normality on another one.

Realizing that, I had to ''descend'' to the level of normal human experiences, from my distant past, like cases of extreme pain or suffering made my answers much more welcomed and shared with approval.

It shows that it is part of our psychological setup to reflect only that portion or part which is active in our own psycho-physiological system. It's a waste of time to talk to someone about the sensation of the opening of the Heart Center, let alone about complete dissolving of the boundary between the inner and outer perception, which marks the rise of Energy-Consciousness to the region of the head.

Whether we like it or not we relate to each other and to the World at large through the energetic wheels (chakras), which govern the issuing of the hormonal juices into the system, so it takes the transcendence of the three basic centers (physical, psychic, mental) to enter the domain of total understanding of another being from the level beyond the limitations imposed by Mother Nature.

It is from the level of the Heart that the rising soul recognizes its identity with the Spirit, even if there is still a long way for the merging, its is no longer stays under the sway of the forces of gravity, which makes it difficult to relate in an unobstructed way.

Likewise, all the talks about faith or its absence are subject to the perception which in turn rests on the frequency of one's existence. Atheism, the denial of God's existence, like any other denial is a form of a relationship.

23. arizonasunset:

Atheists don't believe because of abandonment issues? What? Pop psychology now? Thanks for your diagnosis professor Freud, but atheists are not a monolithic group, and inference from one (alleged) atheist to all atheists won't work.

Anyway, I'm onto you! You're leading up to "well, God will never abandon you!" aren't you?

Well, no, gods won't abandon people, what with them not being real and all that. Sheesh.

yogi-one #37

Freyja #43

Well said!

Yo God
You know you could settle this debate once and for all with just one appearance here at IB.
I guess you enjoy the debate though.
I feel like I'm gossiping when I talk about God cause he's never here to comment back. Well he or she or it or something.

The whole God thing is based on the absentee father. You just wait till God gets home mister. But then he doesn't show up or it's the step god.

Well now I'm just being sarcastic. I have heard this debate so many times that all I can be is silly.
Isn't it time to move past this ancient debate? Have we had enough yet?

Thanks Deepak for stirring up an old worn out subject.
Someone either believes in God or not. No skin off my back either way.

I'm getting back in my row boat. I swam down to try and make it to where the shafts of light come to a point. It got so dark that they disappeared before I could find the point they converged at. Back at the surface in my boat I find them again dancing just below the surface. I think I like drifting and gazing more than diving and holding my breath.
God has not sent me a scientist to explain why I am so mesmerized by this play of light in the water. Maybe I should just enjoy the light without knowing why.

derek

Yo
.............converged at? Now that is some bad grammar for sure.

Arizonasunrise, (regarding your first post:)

Comparing all of humanity to infants, how condescending. You claim to have a father who was an atheist but it seems you have no idea what it is. You cannot see how silly the poll is, that Deepak Chopra wrote about.

Part of being an atheist is taking responsibility for yourself, which no infant is capable of doing. Just a thought.

"God has not sent me a scientist to explain why I am so mesmerized by this play of light in the water. Maybe I should just enjoy the light without knowing why."

doodleman #51

***************

From an interview with Brian Greene - my hero - one of the world's most brilliant and foremost contemporary physicists:

Bradley Jay: Why should someone who is not a scientist expend the energy to try to understand concepts that are even more advanced than ideas they probably long ago filed in a corner of their brain labeled "stuff I will never really grasp anyway, so why bother?"

Brian Greene: There was a physicist who died about fifteen years ago, Richard Feynman, and he was asked, "What do you experience when you look at a rose? Is it the same experience that the rest of us have?" And he said, "Well, I can certainly still take in the rich red color. I can still smell the wondrous aroma of the rose. But I can go further, because I can see the molecular interaction that gives rise to the color, and the interaction between the atoms that gives rise to the aroma." So the experience of the rose is richer—it's deeper, because one can actually see what it is that's making the rose appear as it does. And I think that's what physics does more generally for the world around us.

Jay: Kind of like how people enjoy football or baseball much more if they know how it works.

Greene: Yeah, exactly. If you're watching the game but don't know the rules, you might enjoy seeing the guy slide into home plate and knock the catcher over. It might be fun to watch. But if you don't really know what's going on it takes away from the experience.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200405u/int2004-05-20

As a spokes woman for GOD the almight, he says "Kiss his Big Black *&^, yup thats right, I am sick of pussy footing around with the crystal emotions of over zealous cry babies, if you want to play give A Rod or Madonna a call, but I am sick of watching out for your feelings. ITS WORK, so for now on I'm gonna tell it like it is..and that is.. I love you

Irvine, your comment about R. Feynman and the rose, brings to memory one of the conversations with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, back in the seventies. Being asked what are the distinctions between the highest levels of consciousness, the transcendental, the god and the unity consciousness, the rishi gave a beautiful answer with red rose exemplifying the whole process.

In summary, the first experience is the obvious observation of the outer form and appearance, colour, scent etc. The observer is beholding the flower and being a witness while enjoying its uniqueness.

As the experience deepens one inevitably arrives at the sap of the rose, which is responsible for the redness of the rose and one starts to enjoy the rose at the finer level, appreciating every shade and every layer out of which the overall redness is being made. While at the same time not loosing entirely the experience of the rose at an obvious level.

When the experience deepens still, one starts to loose oneself in the experience of the rose. Finally, there comes a moment when the experience is so refined, that one is no longer able to see any shade of colour, except for the pure white sap of the flower. One is no longer a rose beholder, but one with the rose. There is no longer a rose and a beholder, but one indistinguishable whole. That is the state characterized by Unity.

* * *

I know what you've meant, the scientist's answer was great. My point is that the experience does not stop at the level of molecules and atoms.

The Maharishi ah yes, HE may have been the one, The One Who Put Me In this CONDITION! I let him in that one little fantasy, with his charm and flutes and all..Damn that guy! then he off and dies? ya that figures?!

Hi Igor,

Talking about a rose. The Romans did know this too in the form of the way they built their cities. I used a Roman labyrinth to build my 3D Virtual Lifegardens, I intuitively gave the labyrinth a stem and so (albeit square) it looks like a rose:

http://www.heartphone.org/lifegardens.htm

Makes you think...........

The labyrinth is a geometric pattern, is drawn by
drawing a cross......

Love,

Mieke

One has to walk through many gates to arrive in the garden of one's Soul...........

Mieke

I LOVE your stuff Mieke, super cool!, the games are GREAT! I had no idea you that your that great!

Hi Tammy,

Thanks :)

Well you know then what You are!!

Love from that heartphone :)

Mieke

If you could see some of the new data sets and resulting inferences I am looking at today both (current and historical) regarding nature and man’s systems you would realize that most of the issues we speak of are no longer worth putting our attention on. The probability, not a certainty, is that many reading this will not be around in 4 years if the trends continue. Those that listened regarding safe haven and adaptive measures will probably be a part of the new human civilization.

The sun is still spotless by the way, so unusual, but so is the veritable storm of noctilucent cloud (NLC) activity is taking place over Europe this week. "On July 2nd, the bands were so bright and compact, they seemed to cast their own shadows on the sky," says John C McConnell of Maghaberry, N. Ireland "I've been observing NLCs for forty years, and I have never seen that before." In Szubin, Poland, electric-blue tendrils swirled out of the sunset, forming an octopus-like display "over 90o wide and 40o high," says Marek Nikodem.

Normally confined to high latitudes, the glowing clouds have spread as far south as France. "On June 30th, I saw NLCs for the first time," reports Laurent Laveder of Quimper, France

It is beautiful Mieke!
you are beautiful
love ~~ Kate

hi Deepak,
perhaps beliefs will un- evolve.
Down with beliefs!
:)
~ Kate

Ref: 57, The greatness of the Sage is beyond IB chatter. Likewise, the greatness of His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi cannot the measured by someone's criticism or praises.

It is measured by the rise of World's Consciousness and the establishment of Government of World Peace. Little is known here about the activity of the Movement and the Master who brought it, beyond the petty rumors of a few ex-practitioners of 15 min here 20 min there would-be-meditators.

Yet for those who are open enough it would be an amazing discovery, for the scope of the Teaching encompasses all spheres of human domain:

~ from education to medical system,
~ to administration and governing,
~ to art and architecture;
~ from music and sonic vibration therapy
~ to prevention of crime and rehabilitation of prisoners;
~ from agriculture and economy to
~ invincibility and prevention of international conflicts (which have been scientifically verified in the war zones and areas of conflict with mathematical figures to show the impact of the group of advanced meditators on neutralizing the conflicting tendencies in the environment ).

It is significant that Maharishi was the only Saint in India ever given the honor of a State funeral. And that is despite the fact that Maharishi was never popular with any of the Indian governments, during his life-time, openly criticizing politicians and political parties of the country which His Holiness saw as heirs to the seat of the Age of Enlightenment.

His divine presence is ever so powerful and I can say even more subtle after the departure from the bodily form.

Maharishi Jaya Jaya
Guru Deva Jaya Jaya

Hi Mieke,

I got your e-mail... will read it tomorrow as I have had a busy day today..

I once had a girlfriend who was totaly mad, quite recent infact it was like two years or so ago. when I say she was mad I mean like mentaly ill kind of mad. At the same tme she was quite an incredible person. introduced her to a few of my friends and she really scared them as she would hear voices and stuff and do all kinds of crazy stuff.

People I knew found it very hard to understand why I would have a relationship with someone like this.

For me it was easy to understand why... I could see the saine person always inside of her you see.

Before I met her she was violent toward herself, she had inflicted terrible wounds upon her body and was filled with so much pain it was extreme to say the least about it.

I spent about six months on and off with her giving her some real love, like just real loving attention. You can't cure madness you see... it is an inward affliction and it is also a living experience for the soul that is within the person. All living experiences no matter how long or short or how painful or peacful are benificial to the spirit as it is the content that it is working with at this lifetime you see?

At points in our brief relationship she became quite normal, her spirit identified with me and I felt it very strongly... yet the madness kept coming back.

The content of her life had trapped her you see?

I never once gave her any form of a spiritual lecture as that would have been way to damaging to her, I just gave her love and attention in areas that she wanted.

What many people do not realise is that she is extremely mad..but you are all mad also, just not to that degree. All the things in your life are the same things in hers but just amplified and out of control.

This is the cure for madness....

It is very simple...

Madness is mostly about Loss, the fear that is generated by loss.. indeed the saying goes one has lost their marbels

If you want to conquer madness then you need to be without loss at all.. and then madness can not get to you.

"I enjoyed spending time with you"

"I miss the time we were together"

" I can not stand another moment without it"

" I long for it so badly"

You must have all felt this way before?

This is the beginning of madness and how far it streches depends.

If you have ever read a poem or heard a song that touched you deeply to the point that you would never be the same again then you have experienced the fulcrum of sanity and madness, because it can be to the side where it will always stay with you unconditionaly in your heart and it will live with you eternaly or.. on the other tilt you will want it forever and chase after the ownership of it never to find it.

There are no relationships at all.....

You do not even have any friends....

You Can't have anything really that will not have its ownership removed from you eventually.

So this is madness to chase after it....

What you can have is something that outshines all of thiese ideas...

You can have perfect sanity, perfect clarity in a state of being that can meet a person and love them as pure blissful energy that moves inside the hearts and stays there unconditionaly..

Like recently I lay in a bath of warm water and I was in the fetal position.... I unconsciously felt what it was like to be inside my mothers womb again.. yet I am not inside my mothers womb now, the feeling of being there is always with me..

The love of a beautiful song, person, poem or place is always here and never goes away from me.

I do not desire it because it is inside of me...

So madness will not tempt me down the garden path...

I can't chase after what I already have...

Love

Simon xx

Yo Irvine
Seriously I love science and can not get enough.

Look what I found. I love youtube, brought to us by science and intuition.
http://www.youtube.com/results?q=brian+greene&search_type=

Fortunately I can do my work and listen to all these wonderful and free lectures. Life is good.
I also listen to the Thomas Jefferson hour all day as well. If your are a person of reason how can you not? One of the most relevant radio shows of our time. Also brought to us free of charge by science and intuition and the graciousness of Clay Jenkinson, one of my heros, via the internet. thomasjefferson.org

I do not believe in any permanent truth or body of evidence that can prove anything. Hence my shifty playfulness. By the time we figure something out through hard work and experiments the truth we found has already shifted and mutated.
But we have to fill our time doing something, we may as well try to learn what we can while we can.
When I listen to Jacob Bronowski, Carl Sagan, Brian Green, Michio Kaku, it is like food from the gods to my soul. I feel the same when I listen to a compassionate and humble spiritual teacher but neither one fills the void. Only my own mischievous reverent irreverence seems to satisfy. My own personal reality.
I not a believer or a skeptic but I am both.
Yo, a pook of sorts.

Believe me, being an artist is an exercise in observation and interpretation. Yo, when I look at a rose............my awareness expands both from micro to macro and back again. Neither science nor spirituality can come close to describing or measuring that experience. To do so would only diminish it. The best I can do is to express it through my art and that is also inadequate.

yo, back to my boat and my drifting and my listening to Brain Greene for the next couple of hours while I draw.

peace bro

derek

This Open Thread is a rich and colorful tapestry...so many unique voices and angles of expression.

Mieke...thanks for your words of wisdom. Love your responses and the kundalini reference. Energy vortexes -- how many does our body hold? What causes these wheels to turn? Is a chakra wheel a cosmic wheel..is it one design?

Simon F...love your stories that help me know you and your good heart. I hope you keep those stories flowing.

Derek...I don't know any of these people you refer to but that doesn't mean that you are a stranger. I know your poetry through appreciation of our differences.

Love to all,

Trish~~~

Dear Trish,
thank you for all your wonderful sharing and the insights that I see through your eyes :)

Simon, you are a fantastic storyteller!

Derek,
the mystery of creation is a wonder to celebrate, and you do in your artistic expressions, in your words of wonder and appreciation.
Thanks!

~ Kate

Hey Kate and Trish
I find it much more fun to play with reality than to prove it.

I'm going to take the day off and watch some universes be created and dissolve tomorrow night. Fireworks are too much fun. We are in a big explosion aren't we?

derek

Oh my, I had such a great experience at the discussion group which gave a link to the book that peers into eternity, and then when I come to this site, I find the aetheists are attacking again.

Whee!

Actually, the kangaroo's instinct is what I had most in mind about mother's milk as most children do not crawl up their mother's stomach to her breasts for nourishment, as usually the loving mother picks them up and holds them gently and tenderly in her hands to suckle her breast.

But it was with fascination that I learned how infant kangaroos behave.

So you don't like the analogy...pop psychology and other trivia...that is what I usually expect and get from most people who don't have love as the foundation of their life.

Just don't try to reverse the sign and command of Love One Another because you dislike its message as my aetheist father once did to my board which displayed that thought. It so angered him that he could not face it.

Some aetheists are just angry at God it would seem and try to deny God's existence, going so far as exploding over the thought of it.

There is such beauty in the world that as the saying goes, the beautiful are who recognize it.

"Just as blind men cannot appreciate the visual experience of a rainbow, those who reject the notion of greatness in God never will be able to experience that kind of presence that made itself known to me." #35

Maybe you would not seem like such a wool brained fool if you did not use such insulting analogies. Have fun in cloudcuckooland. I am not able to do so.

Arizonasunrise: I have literally experienced the image of a giant Jesus type image hovering all around me at one time while walking here at the ranch.
*

I am not a medical doctor, but I think I can recognize a case of too much Arizona sun when I see one.

arizonasunset,

Unfortunately, personal experiences of the kind you mentioned can be used as the basis for nearly any belief system you can imagine. It doesn't help your argument much at all.

#35 - I've read some really senseless drivel in my life, but I'll give you the lollipop for today. That doesn't even add up to a steaming pile of horse dung.

arizonasunset - + #70 - you are so lucky it's my bed time. Otherwise I would explain to you just what sort of witless f**ktard you are.

My best advise for you youngster, say goodnight, not gawd bless you, and run like hell, because you just stepped through the gate.

*she twirls off to bed....*

Sounds like you need a shut down ms mimi I am the only one that can give you that beating, so lets go bitch.. why ya so mad? did someone take somthin from you, or maybe you just thought it was yours.. HELLO bitch it never was, so smile and be happy to see that Arizona Sun set, cause is just on lone, for your viewing pleasures! Get It? Got it! GOOD!

ps bark like a dog you anger bitch cause thats all that we hear!

Oh yes I can be super duper mean, because I can feel every drop of anger THERE IS! and use it to spank YOU!

"Some aetheists are just angry at God it would seem and try to deny God's existence, going so far as exploding over the thought of it."

Posted by: arizonasunset

'sigh' Please, explain, just how can one be angry at a being that one does not believe exists?

Also, most of us do not explode at the thought of the big sky daddy. There is nothing to get mad at. But what does get some of us angry is fuzzy thinking, especially when we are expected to take seriously.

arizonasunset, you claim your father is an atheist. Has any of the fine arguments you posted here worked on him?

Dear Arizona I feel what you so deeply want for your Dad, but here's the deal, your ideas of what " God " means is just different than what your Father believes, that dose not mean that he dosen't feel and sense what you call "God" he may not chose to call it GOD, thats ok, theres room for that too, remember love conquest all, and that is the truth that always stands! This is for you too ms mimi : )
GOD is just a WORD!

#77 Irvy, darling, are we expected to take you seriously? Methinks you do protest too much?

Tammy, I don't think that PCP and Prozac were meant to be taken at the same time.

I do believe in god and some super power always with us from the beginning of the world. I think everyone should pray for the god.

#81

It is not a case of believing in God - that is not at all important.

What people fail to notice is that the very root of your being is God.

Instead of belief one needs to be totaly enveloped by the moment that is arising in God. Right now you are God, forget about beliefs of any kind and just be what you already are.

Thats all.

Love

Simon xx

says...sighman...

"What people fail to notice is that the very root of your being is God..." #82...

really sighman...and how do u know all this, odd dude? what, u have a direct line to god? damn! is there a doc in the house?

we want him to leave and neva show up here again!

You know . I am out of that yummy stuff at the moment, but I know you have more that your share in your bathroom cupboard, be a nice . and share some, will ya?

"Is a chakra wheel a cosmic wheel..is it one design?" #67

Hi Trish,

Yes, a chakra wheel is a cosmic wheel. Our next human evolution will involve 13 instead of seven. But this I have read somewhere and am not sure if I myself am already part of that evolution
:).

Am still on the journey to find that out in the course of my expanding consciousness. Our children, but certainly our grandchildren are already experiencing something completely different from what my generation has. That is evolution!

It is one design alright with many ways to improvise and to improve, in fact: as many ways as there are creatures in the Universe :)

Life in itself is a very positive evolution, despite what some dark forces are trying to make of it :).

It is the shift in perception one is bound to make when one realizes ones own power well inside. One can only be it, once one has discovered it, but one cannot discover it for another being.
One can (perhaps) trigger it in someone else by ones way of living it, by being an example.

In the end, to live from your heart means to give yourself the joy and bliss you deserve and if you radiate that it will certainly have its effect on everything around you.

It is as Harb advised me: becoming and staying present at that heartphone at both sides :)

Jai Guru Dev and Deva :)

Mieke

Tammy, calm down. Methinks Mini is more slutty than angry.(Tammy, before you fly off the handle again, that last statement is a joke.)

Dear Diablo,

I have got his e-mail address

Love

Simon xx

I am talking to myself idiot, if you have ANY TRUE COMPASSION know this! If you think I am not as crazy as a march hair your wrong, so crazing I almost have compassion for myself, SO THERE!

What do you think about that?

March hares aren't crazy, Tammy. There's a method in their madness. Methinks you are crazy about Irv.

Mewinks but mesinks

"Some Christians are just angry at Allah it would seem and try to deny Allah's existence, going so far as exploding over the thought of it, and slaughtering thousands of Jews and Muslims in the meantime."

arizonasunset, I hope you don't mind, but I edited your comment so you don't come across as a barely literate bigot who's never bothered to pick up a history book.

Don't thank me, just promise you won't infect any children with your glaring disregard for truth.

Ed,

Lets get some where or some when on the road near Carslile where I may be from from...

Listen to this Bonnie lad..

If you fell out of the sky and landed in Sunderland one day... does that mean that you belong in the sky or in Sunderland?

What's Interesting is that Elvis Presley is in Sunderland right now even though he never toured Great Britain.

Make no Mistake he is in Sunderland right now though

You know why he is there???

Because of the same mentality that said he never toured Great Britain...

People saw Elvis as a man with dark hair, dark skin and a great smile. They idendified his body as being him all of his life and even now we have those who mimic how he looked.

In 1977 Elvis died, The spirit of Elvis dropped its bodily form and so no more Elvis for some.

Yet... If we look carefuly at what made up his body it is very very obviouse what that material is....

Water and dust...

The Water that contributed to the many bodies of Elvis right from his birth to his death is in some part in Sunderland right now or at least it will have been or will be again soon.

The dust that made up the many body forms of Elvis is the same.. it was in Sunderland or it will be there....

So for those who can not...or did not see Elvis in Sunderland in the time he lived. or now to this day.. were simply not looking hard enough...

Indeed - My fingers type these words but, with a combination of material that may have once been part of Elvis Presely.

You see you can go further than this....The water I drink now... Slurp... Slurp

That water was here when the dinosaurs roamed this planet millions of years ago..

If I Sneeze right now... Achooo! the dust was here when the dinosaurs roamed this earth

Elvis was made from Dinosaur Piss and Sneeze you see?

And it is in Sunderland now....

So if you believe that only dust and water is some one or some place then you are confuesed big time...

The thing that pulls it all together - is no place you see?

The nothing is what drives the cycle of everything

Elvis does not matter on this level because Elvis along with everything else is Universaly present at all times at all states of being..

Incidently.... before the sun fired up and this planet formed.... there was no water here on earth, the dust also was pulled in from space to form the planet and the solar system......

So what makes us, what made up The body of Elvis, the body of the dinosaur is bloody Alien Piss and Sneeze..

So now you know....

You best phone home quick...

I ask you once again, Have you ever been to where I am from?

INDEED- it is not a question by now if you fell out of the sky one day... because you really have fallen out of the sky lots of times.

Love

Simon xx

Give me a box of crayons and I will draw you a picture of you and Irv. Crazier that a circus of flees, you know.

How is that Elvis story supposed to help? it dose not, but thanks. Reading it was entertaining, and distraction for a minute. But uhhh ya Elvis, dinasours, dust, sundertown.. what? I don't get it..

It's not supposed to help...

If you want help I can't give it to you unless you yourself create the help that you need.

Love

Simon xx

Yogi One

While you are spot on with your # 37 defence of atheists, and your criticism of believers who blatantly attack them, you are strangely silent on criticising the atheists who attack believers the same way, calling them gullible, stupid, and a host of other pejoratives. Isn’t their prejudice and unwarranted condemnation of believers, just as insidious as it is the other way around? Aren’t you also being a little unfair when you try to dismiss someone’s professed “literal experience” of a deity as just a “projected experience”? How could you know for sure?

Personally I believe “You can pick your own nose but don’t try and pick your neighbour’s nose”.

Kind Regards,
Stan

So, Simon, Elvis was a Goat, you see ;)
Goats do smell a bit of urine.
Are you taking the Michael, too?

Get those crayons out, Tammy...colour me green ;))

You can't help?, Could you please put that in 1000 or so different languagages and tell all the people across the world, " Sorry, you have to create help for your self"
The reason there is more than one person walking around on this planet, is to we can help each other!( take up each others burdens ) your line of thinking is what keeps people STARVING, fool.

All this nonsense is making me want to go for the John. Methinks I might flood the place.

#95 If you can't beat them, Stan, please do join the Ed ;)

How did Starving people enter this conversation?

You wield that notion like a weapon against me....

I cant help you understand why you do that unless you are ready to Understand...

People Starving is something different entirely and is not relevent to what I have said to you.

If you want some love here I am, Will that help you?

On you that all depends

If you lke; we can discuss maybe a practical solution to feeding the starving, I will even take their starving as my responsibility.

I am to blame for all the starving people if it will help you...

Does it help you now that I have taken this burden? It is my fault why people starve in the world.

How does that make you feel?

Love

Simon xx

ok....so I had to comment on the cinam togrify? first, you both have spoken truth, But filming over coffee would have had more effect, uthinksuthinks..This looks like " Days of Our life"