Whew....I need a cigar after that....

Exactly, Norm! Crack me up-------->UT

I'm ready to have the canine level of my blood checked....

I can only conclude from this post that it's a good thing I'm so darned ugly.

Aloha Suchitra

I feel we are in a place where we can love whom we are with. And it has nothing to do with sexuality. Heart to Heart is what connects and every lasting.

I don't know if your familiar with Sondra Ray, she wrote the book I Deserve Love. It is in essence a wonderful book of affirmations about maturing in your feelings of connectedness. Women who chase after men, who are in the lime light need to connect with who they are. And men who are mature sexually will direct them to fall in love with their self vs. falling into a false delusion they are the one.
.
We are in a thought responsive universe. It is Light, Perception and Projection. Attraction means to return to the Light that is who you are. The projection passes, but you remain the Light. And that is what everyone wants.

When I first met my guru I wanted to marry him, he was 98 years old. The feeling is still there today.. it is a Love that is beyond physical form. The other is like food, water and air. And hopefully this is what my granddaughters will know. The world is change, and we are the change that doesn't change. We are the Light before daylight and night. Sin or infidelity is old style reality.. who wants it? STDs, Aids or strokes from Viagra tell us.. wake up.

love patty

Dear Suchitra

You're in a whinging mood, and it makes you ignore reality to try to make your points.

To start with, if you've ever really seen a bitch in heat, she normally has six, or fourteen, or sometimes more, dogs from which to make her choice. It's their duty to pleasure her, and she has the last and only say in which one(s) get to do it. Tables turned, number one. Then there's the reality of women. Worldwide, they're about as promiscuous as men, only they're sneakier. Tables turned, number two.

I could continue but I'm a pretty merciful woman, so I won't.

Just one final turn of the table: goodness & forgiveness in women are due to their hearts being well-rooted in pure love. When you relax a little, you'll remember that you already know that.

Blessings & love to you, h

Aloha Suchitra

And I just want to add, the wedding is within. You are married in your Soul. Another good book is The Pleasure Trap. In essence it is about SAD, sense attitude disorder. It aligns the reader through nature by sharing how a certain bird, goes about attracting a mate. And what it says is we have lost the ability go through the process. And that is where SAD, comes in.. the instant gratification takes over vs. the ability to think through what are the genuine gifts of the relationship. The book was written for people with eating disorders.. but would apply to all relationships. It helps define what is SAD.. What is healthy for you and those who are close to you. And I bet you are going through the pretty girl syndrome where all the nice guys shy away. They are there.. as they always have been. We are all learning, thinking, and meditating, which makes a whole new world.. as Deepak shared the age of Wisdom. love patty

Suchitra,
"Looking for love in all the wrong places" -- is a country song that comes to mind.

If men and women act like animals in heat what is our next phase of evolution?

Perhaps our brain focus will rise from the pelvis area and find new attunement higher up the vibrational scale. What will relationships look like then?

Thanks for your post...holding nothing back. It doesn't matter if I agree or not. What matters is your straight forward communication that cuts through stagnant layers of unspoken emotion and words. That airing opens the way for something new to fill in.

Trish~~

"And men who are mature sexually will direct them to fall in love with their self vs. falling into a false delusion they are the one." - Patty #5

Well Patty, here you have touched the deepest wisdom and truth there is:

Because you can say the same the other way around:

"And women who are mature sexually will direct them to fall in love with their self vs. falling into a false delusion they are the one"

What is the secret of a good relationship between a man and a woman:

The man leads his woman in such a way that she starts to love herself.

The woman leads her man in such a way that he starts to love himself.

And this is true in all aspects of life.

And this is an "and and" situation.

If this truth is really understood

And if it is experienced and lived

Then every arguement can be solved in a peaceful way

And peace will be a natural state.

The situation is grave.

The Bonobos Tribe has figured out the natural solution to all this and live in relative peace without violence.

In their society there is no infidelity because they have not created artificial boundaries and restraints, including possession and ownership of other beings and permanent unchanging relationships.

They have a matriarchal society, the women tend to run things, and use sex to resolve conflict. Men do not own women, and women are not treated like property. They are on equal footing flowing naturally. To overcome the stronger males the females bond together.

I say relative Peace because warring human factions coming from Patriarchal Society have disturbed their peace in the Congo. In Patriarchal society sex is repressed creating conflict, and relationships are defined with all types of restrictions and limitation.

They the Bonobos don’t seem so possessed with owning another human being or a relationship as they do just experiencing other beings and playing with each other.

There is a lot of touching which causes good feelings, stimulating the nerve endings of others is not the sin that it is in Patriarchal society, where this notion leads to conflict aggression weakening the cohesiveness of society, destroying unity allowing a small group of artificial Uber Males to control the rest using force.

Special bonds form and dissolve between specific females and males yet there is no artificial egoic notion of unchanging permanence

The children are treated as children of the “whole” society and some are not fed while others are left to starve. Caring for the children is a shared responsibility.

Click my name and read how this unique societal structure works and just how much a bananna can get you.

Aloha Heartphone

And I agree woman too, have a responsibility not to lead someone in a relationships of delusions. We are in the age of intent. A Course In Miracles teaches all relationship are special, then they become holy encounters. It is when it is a Holy Relationship, you realize that it takes two to go to heaven. The two changes, from you and the other person to you and a God whose Love sustains you. With this understanding, you realize with the purer intent a quickening happens where you are the I am that I am.

I don't know if you ever experienced rebirthing. In working with the dying, the rebirthing breath happens naturally. They call it chain choking. or the death rattle. And I think because women physically are able to give birth, there is this natural wisdom through the physical experience of a death of a relationship within her. a child is born. When you are with someone who is dying, you feel a ocean of bliss. We are all in the mind of God. The physical body is a dimension of the mother. And maybe that is what the Edward's are mirroring on a global level... for God puts milk in the woman's breast otherwise we wouldn't feed our young. Peace has to come from a higher dimension. We are not our just our physical form, it is just a rented condo from our parentsL) love patty

It would seem that there is only one source of love and we simply choose to channel it or not.

Buddha .me has the book of love, the short concise edition for short attention spans.

Perhaps this is what it is all about and if understood all our relationships would be harmonious.

Click my name.

"And men who are mature sexually will direct them to fall in love with their self vs. falling into a false delusion they are the one." - Patty #5

Mieke,
When I read this statement, as well as the statement that women who chase men need to connect with themselves, this hit me like truth hits. Thank you for talking about how Patty's wisdom is the basis for a beautiful relationship between 2 people in love. This gives me hope and inspiration.

Patty, thank you. The books you suggest are exactly what my soul needs. I have struggled with eating disorders since childhood, not a text book case, but still using food to win the approval of the first man in my life. Today I still turn to food for comfort when I'm feeling unlovable as a woman, inadequate and lacking faith in myself. And I'm not being boastful at all, but I suffer from the 'pretty girl syndrome'. I don't think you have to be pretty by society's standards to suffer from it. Just have a caregiver who implies that your looks are your worth. Many times as a child I felt my appearance was the ticket to winning my father's attention. Do you see nothing more to me than this outer shell? Well I will win your attention by controlling my appearance. Today, I understand I am much more than a shell, and I even feel my father's love for the inner me. But those false ideas about myself linger and haunt me still, maybe my "subconscious brain map"(?) But I am aware of it, most of the time.

I believe in real love and in my "ability to think through what are the genuine gifts of the relationship." (Patty) And I believe the nice guys are there.

Richard I appreciate your post on the Bonobos tribe. But for me, the spiritual growth and joy associated with being in a life-long monogamous relationship is out of this world.

As does Trish, I thank you, Suchitra, for sharing honestly your mind and heart. You have made it clear that this is your opinion. You have given me the space to do the same.

Much love,
Sharon

Dear Richard,

Thank you for this article on the Bonobos:

“Just imagine that we had never heard of chimpanzees or baboons and had known bonobos first. We would at present most likely believe that early hominids lived in female- centered societies, in which sex served important social functions and in which warfare was rare or absent. In the end, perhaps the most successful reconstruction of our past will be based not on chimpanzees or even on bonobos but on a three-way comparison of chimpanzees, bonobos and humans.”

This last paragraph of the article is the most important I guess.

But to me there is another entry to female – centred societies:

I am reading a wonderful book written by a Dutch writer, called “The smile of the Siren”, with subtitle: “travelling through the Etruscan labyrinth in search of the Goddess”.

It is about an ancient Etruscan civilization in Italy (region Toscana) of thousands of years back, where a matriarchal society and also a labyrinthine culture have left their marks in many, many ways. Gradually the landscape reveals itself as one big temple, dedicated to the sacred marriage between heaven and earth.

Wells, caves, water temples, old altars, hollow roads, underground corridors, stone circles and remains of old labyrinths are the silent witnesses from long vanished times, in which the earth was worshipped as the mother Goddess.

In the book one learns to understand the symbolic language of the country. Age old myths come to life. The story moves between many different levels of history, from the Neolithic times up to Christianity.

It seems that the doubly fluked mermaid did not only perform an important part with the Etruscan people, but also with the Longobards (Lombards) and the Merovingiens. Even Mary Magdalene is imagined as a mermaid…..

It is an intriguing cultural-historic and spiritual detective. To me it comes at the exact time in my life to learn more about the history of the labyrinth and about the Goddess.

Written by Selma Sevenhuijsen, who also has a website about labyrinths in the Dutch and English language: http://www.labyrintwerk.nl/english/

Love,

Mieke

Hi Patty,

"I don't know if you ever experienced rebirthing. In working with the dying, the rebirthing breath happens naturally. They call it chain choking. or the death rattle. And I think because women physically are able to give birth, there is this natural wisdom through the physical experience of a death of a relationship within her. a child is born."

Yes I think I can understand what you mean. To me this is the primordial strength or power of the "Goddess", in fact the earth and we as females inherited this from her.

Hi Sharon,

You are on a journey, it is both material and spiritual. Look at Madonna for instance :)

Me am still on this journey too, discovering more and more spiritual meaning. Guess this comes by ageing and at a certain age, wisdom enters by itself :)

Much love,

Mieke

Hi Suchitra,

I think you've hit the nail pretty squarely. I'm not a believer in sin but if I were surely it would be a 'sin' to forgive continuous betrayals w/out requiring the betrayer to take responsibility for his/her actions.

In my eyes, Edwards has never accepted full responsiblity for his actions. As a voting taxpayer, would I trust a man capable of betraying his seriously ill spouse, repeatedly denying the truth, paying his mistress huge sums from publically-donated funds, and even having some poor schmuck declare himself the father of her illegitmate child? Is such a person deserving of the public's trust? (Rhetorical question,y'all!)

I think you are right on in acknowledging the prevalent attitude of "boys will be boys", as infantile as that actually is. It's never okay to wound or betray one's spouse (or equivalent). I've known couples in 'open' marriages and where honest communication is present, this can result in life-affirming relationships w/in and w/out the marriage.

Yet that's rarely the case. I think it's even more rare that a betrayed spouse truly forgives: it's more likely she/he simply decided to 'turn a blind eye' until they are absolutely forced to see and deal with the painful truth.

The answer I think lies in holding people accountable for their actions. Betrayers need to be accountable for the deep wounding of their betrayal. Betrayees need to be accountable for their tacit approval of such behavior. Both need to accept responsibility for the wounding that occurs to their families.

I'd personally like to see Relationships 101 taught in schools from an early age (many parents unfortunately are dropping the ball on educating their own kids - another rant, another day). It begins w/ learning to respect others as you respect yourself. Only then will we ever truly see a shift in consciousness on the massive scale we desperately need.

Thank you Suchitra for the last paragraph of your thread:

"Change if any, cannot be achieved by force or punishment or imposition of guilt. It can only come with understanding. And tolerance. And the freedom to be and let each other be."

Especially the last sentence. This is also the conclusion of Harbhajan Singh's book "Self Designed Universe" which I have translated into the Dutch language.

http://www.selfdesigneduniverse.com

It all has a lot to do with four basic forces of the universe and us becoming consciously aware of them in the course of our lifetime.

Mieke

Yes, Mieke,
I am on a journey, my very own journey, unique and unlike any other. No one of us can presume to fully know the journey of another. For me, the joy is in the sharing.

The more our Oneness is forced, the more we differentiate. The more our uniqueness is embraced and celebrated, the more ... ?

Missihippi

the more you will honour the divine in yourself as you honour the divine in the other :)

"Deepak Chopra"

Love, Mieke

Aloha Sharon

I feel you would like The Pleasure Trap. Once you start to identify SAD, you will have more discernment in relationships. And you will attract more relationships that support you in your intelligence and strength. And when you feel like your on the bottom of the food chain, just remember as my Client shared it is because you are delicious. A self-loving parent has self-loving children... See and love everything as the mother. love patty

And I honour the God and Goddess in myself in such a way that I live in a heaven on earth and my every wish has been fulfilled.

As I look back on a life full with ups and downs.

I consider myself lucky to have been able to raise a daughter and a son. I did not buy the saying that a mother has more in common with her daughter and a father more with his son.

It has always been difficult for me to choose. I have both of them inside me and it made me aware of both sides of the medal.

It has been a good learning school for me and still teaches me everyday that male and female matter in exactly the same way.

And both my children have understood this and I am so grateful for that!

Mieke

Mieke and Patty,
Thank you. I see you both as Goddesses teaching me the way of God and Goddess.
I am struck again that the words I most need to hear appear before me like magic.

Mucho amor,
Sharon

Speaking of the Course of Miracles and Relationships.

If you click my name you can listen to an older Audio of Marianne Williamson as she discusses the Relationships and Romantic Delusions.

I think you will find it magical.

Thanks a lot Richard for that Audio.

I remember one saying of Marianne Williamson:

If women can accept the rationality of men then surely men can accept the feelings of women :)

These aren't here exact words but am sure my interpretation comes close :)

"Feeling like a woman, thinking like a man" Myself :)

Love, Mieke

Thanks Suchitra for your beautiful post, though the topic is about sin and forgiveness, it is also about sex, sexuality, lust and love which are all verily misunderstood because our needs and desires are equally the same, though suppressed more in one gender than the other.

The Goddess “Shambhavi Lorain Chopra” wrote two books which are great reads. Her personal experiences in the books become the surging river of contemplation, when we resolve to cross the waters and abandon the limitations of physical existence, the harmony of body and mind becomes a compelling transformation of the riptide of the spiritual realm.

Below are Intros I typed from the books:

Book #1 "Yogini:Unfolding the Goddess Within" is a unique record of personal experiences that portray in its various fascinating episode the secrets of the magical world of Tantra. It shows how the gods and goddesses can manifest themselves within our daily lives, taking us from the mundane to the sublime and making our days and nights a dance of wonder and delight.

Book #2 - "Yogic Secrets of the Dark Goddess" unfolds the mystic beauty of Kali, the most powerful but misunderstood of the great
Goddesses of India. The book reveals all dimensions of life and consciousness in Kali’s transformative dance.

Hugs, Lily

I ain't got no money
I ain't got no car to take you on a date
I can't even buy you flowers
But together we'll be the perfect soulmates
Talk to me girl

Oh, baby, it's alright now, you ain't gotta flaunt for me
If we go there, you can still touch my love, it's free
We can work without the perks just you and me
Thug it out 'til we get it right

---

Today, walking
I heard a "crac" sound under my feet
I stopped
On the floor, a broken word:
Be-leave

I want to strip
No, dad, no mom, no teachers
Strip out of past-multicolor programmed happy-cell-jails
I want to strip

Show me the way you am
Show me the way I are...

I honestly believe infidelity and forgiveness is a matter of culture, and I wonder what early primitive man did with regard to marital infidelities.

One thing that I have learned in the past decade is the different ways that different cultures viewed marrige and so called infidelity. The most revealing to me was the life of the Mongols when I studied the life of Genghis Khan.

It would be interesting to learn the origins of laws that govern society. I don't necessarily agree with the author of this argument that it is God who is responsible for man's behaviour.

The Mongols permitted and accepted extramarital affairs. Genghis Khan established many laws for governing his territories and had many wives.

For the most part, I believe that individually mankind is at the mercy of his birthright and thus his inheritance of the culture of his family.

Don't blame God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITM2AKRT9cI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQMwN9QgpVg&feature=related

Here is an article you might be interested in: "Ending the War Between Men and Women"

http://www.openone.net/blog/index.php?itemid=27

Mieke #15:

"Wells, caves, water temples, old altars, hollow roads, underground corridors, stone circles and remains of old labyrinths are the silent witnesses from long vanished times, in which the earth was worshipped as the mother Goddess."

Does that resonate with you, Mieke? Did you live there/then? And do you think this way of Goddess is part of herstory on other planets?

Trish~~

Hi Trish,

It was during that time, when the earth was worshipped as the mother Goddess, that man/woman still were united and fully connected to the earth in the expression of life and everything that came from the heavens made the earth flourish and wither and flourish and wither, in a repeating cycle.

People were more connected to their own body too and intuitively knew how to keep it in a good condition.

This resonates with me and I believe that my body is the reflection of the Universe. I am a microcosm reflecting the macrocosm. In a way my body is the Universe.

When I walked the labyrinth in Chartres and stood in de middle I saw how this cathedral was built in the form of a body, a human body, I intuitively felt the connection with the three rose windows, and the three madonnas and the labyrinth itself symbolizing my body and mind, in other words symbolizing the sacred marriage between heaven and earth in myself.

Every ancient civilization has expressed the same in their symbols, worshipping this connection, wondering about it.

Of course I do not know if this is part of the story of the Goddess on other planets. I only know intuitively that the history from the Big Bang up till now is in some way imprinted into us all and that we still are busy remembering :)

The journey in itself is already so worthwhile!

Mieke

Dear Suchitra,

The basic difficulty lies in human nature. Marriage (or cohabitation) has to be seen as a contract between two individuals. An infidelity is nothing but a breach of contract; nothing less nothing more. That such breaches cause sometimes irreparable heartache is unfortunate. Given the widespread nature of infidelity, perhaps we need to give another look at the institution of marriage itself with a new lens. Perhaps monogamy is not natural and we are unable to overcome our need to procreate. The security and comfort that a stable family provides individuals has a tremendous value and that's the main reason why the concept of marriage has survived so long. In the light, Richard's observations above make very good sense. We are an evolving species and a time may come when we learn from our bonobo cousins and adapt a more flexible moral stance.

Remember that the infidelity does not always happen between an attached man and an unattached woman. While I agree that a man is more likely to want to sow his seed more widely sometimes these acts are initiated by married women as well. Besides, every act of infidelity requires two consenting people. So it is wrong to blame man alone.

Regards,

Ravi

There is always someone more attractive, funnier, more charismatic etc that you meet in life. Whether you take it one step further, is the perogative of the individual.

However, I think 'committing' to another human being; mind, body and soul is the biggest thing any person can do.

Men use the need/release of the physical act of sex as an excuse to 'play the field' and justify being unfaithful.. I also used to think that monogamy is not natural.However, it is natural for a human being to seek companionship and search for that level of understanding in a partner that is not fulfilled in certain ways from your fmaily or friendships. I feel that if a man is unfaithful as a woman can be unfaithful they will continue to be so throughout their 'marriage, relationship'etc. Children, financial commitments hold relationships together in many cases-but it does not mean that the two people are psychologically committed to one another. Thank Christ for every man who justifies his unfaithfulness there are six and to the dozen men who don't-and are not unfaithful. Men, who strongly believe in commitment to one woman..'one women' men if you will as there are as many 'one men women'.

Why does someone look for something else elsewhere, outside their relationship? Perhaps because they feel they are not receiving certain things in their own relationship.

I agree with the comment above, that there is no excuse for being unfaithful to someone you commit to..However, it is up to the man or the woman who has been betrayed to accept the justifications or not. In most cases, people actually don't and walk away..after all, we try and live the way and treat others the way we would like to be treated ourselves.

When you find that connection with someone you really don't notice the rest of the world..perhaps that's naive..but for me..I believe and continue to believe that this is the ultimate point of a relationship with another human being. They become your rock. If you break a glass you can put it back together but the cracks will always be there. Its about trust. If they have done it once, they may do it again..and how can anyone be secure with someone who they cannot trust emotionally and are continuously doubting their faithfulness?

in this day and age of the internet..the medium has provided a discrete form of unfaithfulness. Sending e-mails and engaging with another person on an emotional level does not always necessarily lead to a physical betrayal..but isn't that just as devastating to the other person. We have no idea what our partners are doing at work, socially etc etc..we just presume that they are being faithful..but are they?

There is always someone more attractive, funnier, more charismatic etc that you meet in life. Whether you take it one step further, is the perogative of the individual.

However, I think 'committing' to another human being; mind, body and soul is the biggest thing any person can do.

Men use the need/release of the physical act of sex as an excuse to 'play the field' and justify being unfaithful.. I also used to think that monogamy is not natural.However, it is natural for a human being to seek companionship and search for that level of understanding in a partner that is not fulfilled in certain ways from your fmaily or friendships. I feel that if a man is unfaithful as a woman can be unfaithful they will continue to be so throughout their 'marriage, relationship'etc. Children, financial commitments hold relationships together in many cases-but it does not mean that the two people are psychologically committed to one another. Thank Christ for every man who justifies his unfaithfulness there are six and to the dozen men who don't-and are not unfaithful. Men, who strongly believe in commitment to one woman..'one women' men if you will as there are as many 'one men women'.

Why does someone look for something else elsewhere, outside their relationship? Perhaps because they feel they are not receiving certain things in their own relationship.

I agree with the comment above, that there is no excuse for being unfaithful to someone you commit to..However, it is up to the man or the woman who has been betrayed to accept the justifications or not. In most cases, people actually don't and walk away..after all, we try and live the way and treat others the way we would like to be treated ourselves.

When you find that connection with someone you really don't notice the rest of the world..perhaps that's naive..but for me..I believe and continue to believe that this is the ultimate point of a relationship with another human being. They become your rock. If you break a glass you can put it back together but the cracks will always be there. Its about trust. If they have done it once, they may do it again..and how can anyone be secure with someone who they cannot trust emotionally and are continuously doubting their faithfulness?

in this day and age of the internet..the medium has provided a discrete form of unfaithfulness. Sending e-mails and engaging with another person on an emotional level does not always necessarily lead to a physical betrayal..but isn't that just as devastating to the other person. We have no idea what our partners are doing at work, socially etc etc..we just presume that they are being faithful..but are they?