Hello Deepak and Everyone,

hmmmm, interesting piece.

as a pro-choice woman when I read an article by folks who are pro-choice but must assert that it comes with much distaste it really makes me want to remind them that the women who are able to get legal and safe abortions do it, also, with much distaste. They do not go bouncing into their neighborhood abortion cafe with a latte in one hand and their date book in another dressed to the nines with a little white hat on their heads singing the "I AM WOMAN, I AM FREE" theme song..

Yes, so you are pro-choice, in a gray area, but you are not going to brag about it....hmmmm, well, isn't that BIG of you.

have a very high and mighty evening, ruth

Dear Dr. Chopra,

It is my contention that we are living in a very sick society that has an "out-of-touch" system of values. It is especially sad for the youths of today who are given as role models such women as those on the television series, "Sex in the City". There are numerous television shows that mirror the same images and role models. There is no value given to the intimate relations depicted. Sexual relations are presented as being appropriate with anyone who happens to be available, simply for physical gratification. There is no value given to integrity and loyalty and true heartfelt love between people.

Abortion is presented as an easy solution to inconvenient pregnancies. Life should not be held as so cheap that it can be easily extinguished whenever so desired. When there are unanswered questions such as, "When and how does a soul enter a body?", abortion should not be considered a moral choice.

The practice of abortion has become a real horror, especially in the case of partial birth abortions when the baby has already left the birth canal and has taken its first breath. The baby is able to feel pain when scissors are used to stab its neck. This practice is unconscionable.

Our society is very sick. Everything is considered to be dispensable/disposable. Man's laws have taken priority over God's laws.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.

Hi Deepak and everyone,

Here's the way I feel. It's all fine and good to intellectualize this subject, take sides, approach from different angles, most of which don't make much sense. I think my opinion is formed mainly from seeing a lot of these pro-choice arguments from the cold intellectualiam of the mind fall apart when you see the damage that abortion can actually do to a young woman who has one. The damage can be extremely profound emotionally and extremely long-lasting. The damage, actually, can be heartbreaking for that woman for decades. If that sounds good to you all, or OK, or if you can intellectualize it away with some nifty argument, then that is fine. But that is not the truth of abortion. The truth is it's not a good thing, and Roe vs. Wade is not a good thing or even a grey area.
I won't get into talking about how Roe Vs. Wade is really not a feminist victory, because I know it isn't and I know also that I will be drowned out by the posters here who really don't understand that the damage it can do to a woman is hard to even wrap your mind around.
So, that's all I have to say. People will think what they want. We all need to find in our heart the truth. The truth in my heart is I know from seeing people get extremely damaged by it, is that it is not OK.

Ruth,

Not trying to start an argument but you wrote "they do not go bouncing into their neighborhood abortion cafe with a latte in one hand and a date book in another dressed to the nines with a little white hate singing the "I am woman, I am free" theme song". You're right, they don't. Most of them know what is about to happen is a very heavy decision, many are very torn about whether to go through with it up until the very moment of the procedure, many lack any support system, and most know in their heart they may pay a very heavy price psychologically for what is about to happen. So, no they are not skipping with joy.

The Republicans know how to extract votes out of this issue. Not surprisingly, they did nothing to overturn Roe when they controlled the three branches of the government and had sufficient control over the Supreme Court for 6 years and had the opportunity of their life to deliver on their false promises to their religious base. That's because it is widely unpopular to overturn Roe.

And also not the right thing to do.

Almost all the countries in the developed world -- with exceptions like Ireland -- have laws similar to Roe vs. Wade.

Even on a practical level criminalizing abortion in all cases won't work to reduce the number of abortions. OTOH comprehensive sex ed, health care and support for teenage mothers and rape victims etc will. And such efforts curiously are opposed by anti-abortionists. This is one more area where religious fundamentalists have hijacked the debate.

India, the land of spirituality, has one of the world's most liberal laws on abortion; I suppose America aspires to be like India. Not Saudi Arabia and their stone age laws.

"The Republicans know how to extract votes out of this issue. Not surprisingly, they did nothing to overturn Roe when they controlled the three branches of the government and had sufficient control over the Supreme Court for 6 years and had the opportunity of their life to deliver on their false promises to their religious base. "--Preity

That says it all. End of the political aspects of this debate.

It's not the government's role to make decisions for a woman. Period.

"OTOH comprehensive sex ed, health care and support for teenage mothers and rape victims etc will. And such efforts curiously are opposed by anti-abortionists. This is one more area where religious fundamentalists have hijacked the debate."

Yes, preach through your churches, no one's stopping you. But don't oppose other efforts to reduce abortions.

Irvine,

You wrote "It's not the government's role to make decisions for a woman. Period." Cool.
Many young woman are pressured every day by family or boyfriends to have an abortion, so I guess as long as the government isn't making the decision it's OK.
My only reason for making this statement is to clarify the point that legalizing abortion has not liberated women from being controlled. Far from it in fact.
But this will be the last thing that I post on this thread, b.c. there just is no point to trying to convince people about things they don't understand.

As a *moral* choice, it should be a *personal* choice. Certainly, a sad choice to be contemplated.

“The Question of Abortion: A Search for Answers”
by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan

Is it wrong to abort a pregnancy? Always? Sometimes? Never? How do we decide? We wrote this article to understand better what the contending views are and to see if we ourselves could find a position that would satisfy us both. Is there no middle ground? We had to weigh the arguments of both sides for consistency and to pose test cases, some of which are purely hypothetical. If in some of these tests we seem to go too far, we ask the reader to be patient with us--we're trying to stress the various positions to the breaking point to see their weaknesses and where they fail.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:djGVw4iC_zMJ:www.2think.org/abortion.shtml+carl+sagan+on+abortion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

I have broken all the 10 commandments and "thou shall not kill" was accomplished via an IUD inserted into my womb that aborts a child in the first month or so.

Yet, I have been forgiven, as God is merciful and gracious. I have been saved by the hand of Love.

Love, Char

We are all saved by LOVE.

It is our right to choose, whether that be good or bad, and this is a gift from God. This is freedom. We will all pay the price regardless. However, we can assist in helping another in that choice. And yes, this is a gray area, as that child had no choice, as the parents are responsible.

I heard from Spirit, "Stop the killing!"

So each of us can decide what killing means to each of us, as we are the judge and Spirit is the guide. But a blind wo/man cannot see.

Love is merciful.

I think that the colors are black and white, but the gray area is the gentle place where forgiveness and love rest.

Criminalizing abortion in the first trimester and in all cases like rape and incest is ridiculous. It's women's reproductive rights. It's a woman's right to choose. Period.

As per the boy friend, hubby, family or her community forcing a girl/woman to 'decide' to abort, she still has a choice. If you want to put someone in prison for this, you got to punish the people who 'force' her to abort against her will, not the victim. Similarly, you got to punish those who take away a women's right to choose, because of their religious/personal views, and also those who force their teenage daughters into loveless marriages to the father of the child.

Joe Biden championed the Violence Against Women Act to decrease domestic violence against women, and the republican conservatives and the religious crowd opposed it. Why?

Joe Biden supported punishnment for Rape in all cases even if it is in a wedlock. The republican conservatives and the religious crowd opposed it. why?

Women should be empowered by the laws, not suppressed.

Such laws won't eliminate all wrong doing, and a lot of crime goes unpunished, but they certainly gives a woman more support against exploitation. And you certainly don't need new laws to legalize/help more exploitation.

Mani,

You wrote "as per the boyfriend, hubby, family or her community forcing a girl/woman to 'decide" to abort, she still has a choice."
Really? How do you know? Is it a choice, or much of a choice if a teenage girl says "I WANT to have this baby" and the parents say "you are getting an abortion or you are out of this house, you can go live out on the street". Is that a real choice? You don't see that young women can be coerced into abortions through threats? Do you know that there are men in this country who threaten and coerce their wives to have abortions? If you don't think that happens every day in this country, you are sadly naive. It is actually common.

Mani,

You also wrote "Women need to be empowered by laws not suppressed." The problem here is that I have never met a woman who felt empowered by having an abortion. Normally it is quite the opposite of that--in terms of abortion bringing about very upsetting long-term psychological repercussions.
I have also known several people coerced into abortions. That is a whole different issue.

"You don't see that young women can be coerced into abortions through threats?"

Read my comment again. I didn't imply that.

I am all for punishing the people who coerce either to have an abortion or force someone to be mother of their child. This is a sad situation. You don't punish the victim, that is the point. If you think criminalizing abortion will decrease the number of such abortions and unwanted or unintended pregnancies, you are keenly naive; such families will force the woman to make more risky ways to have an induced pregnancy. You don't need a clean and healthy clinic to have an abortion. There are crude and efficient ways to abort babies at home, which are dangerous to the mother tough.

"Is it a choice, or much of a choice if a teenage girl says "I WANT to have this baby" and the parents say "you are getting an abortion or you are out of this house, you can go live out on the street". "

In such cases we certainly need laws that help teenage mothers.

That's my point about laws empowering women whether it is domestic violence or financial blackmail. For ex. In Alaska, Palin cut funds to centers/shelters where teenage mothers get help for about two years or more after having a child. These kind of help helps teenage women to make a choice in the face of family pressure.

"induced abortion "(not pregnancy.) [17]

Mani,

I am sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant.
But I do have to say if you are "all for punishing people who coerce to have an abortion", that is going to be a hard, hard task as it is so commonplace. It is not realistic to punish those people. Who is going to speak out against them, the teenager who has just been coerced into an abortion after being threatened with homelessness?
It's not likely. Who's going to believe here anyway? How will she prove it?
Anyway, as far as you saying if abortion is illegalized there will be just as many people still being pressured into dangerous abortions--I have to disagree. I really believe the legality, the societal acceptance of abortion along with the very easy access to abortion make a lot of these parents feel like it is something "OK" that they can tell their daughter she must do it...or else she will be punished. I doubt most of those parents are so cruel they would similarly threaten the daughter to go get a back alley abortion, most would not know where to even find a back alley abortionist.
To address the last part of your post, that is NOT GOOD that Palin made those cuts. And I understand the left's argument with the right and their feeling the right is hypocritical. But that still doesn't make abortion right.

Of course one can't punish something as loose as "coercing" someone into making a decision. But one can punish domestic violence and rape within wedlock.

If a woman chooses to abort a fetus, it is not wrong/right. Family coercion is not the only reason/factor for why a woman chooses to abort. The problem is deeper than that. Abortion may cause psychological problems, but having a baby in face of a family that doesn't support the mother financially/emotionally and neither does the government, that also adds to the problem, not just to the mother but also to the child. Unreadiness to raise a child at an early age/under poverty conditions may be another reason why a girl/woman may decide to abort.

"I doubt most of those parents are so cruel they would similarly threaten the daughter to go get a back alley abortion, most would not know where to even find a back alley abortionist."

Criminalize abortion. They will know it. It's not rocket science. People in remote areas - information challenged - of the world may not know that condoms can stop pregnancy, but they know how to abort babies.

Choosing to abort a baby in the first trimester is not illegal. Abortion in the second and third trimester is illegal under Roe vs. Wade. There is no choice under current laws, except under a real danger to a mother's life/physical health - as certified by a physician - (not in case of mental health) where she has a choice.

Criminalizing abortion won't work. As Preity mentioned, Ireland is perhaps the only country among the developed world that has laws tat make abortion illegal in all cases. Those women who want to abort, who can afford to travel, go to UK to have an abortion.

There are also those who choose to raise babies under family scorn in many communities which not only affects the woman's psychological health, but also the child's growth.

There should always be a choice when it comes to government law. One can't tamper a women's reproductive right's in the name of tacking social issues. There are many ways in which unwanted pregnancies can be addressed. By being pro-education, pro-child care, pro-health, and pro-women's issues. And these causes are championed by pro-choice people.

Hello all,

Frankly, if you are anti abortion that is fine with me, I have no desire to change one's mind about abortion in terms of the right and wrong of it, the moral or immoral of it....All, I, and, many, other, women are concerned with, is, that, the Law is on the side of life and choice, as it should be, in a land where grow ups legisltate.

have a great day everone, ruth

Mani,

Abortion in the second and third trimester IS legal in this country. So, I just wanted to clarify that fact. One does not need to prove a medical problem to have one done during 2nd trimester.

You wrote "there are those who choose to raise babies under family scorn in many communities which not only affects the woman's psychological health, but also the chid's growth". So, is abortion the answer in that situation? Abortion will affect the woman's psychological health and far more so than having the baby and even dealing with the scorn in many cases, and as far as the family scorn affecting the child's growth, well the child won't be around to grow at all if an abortion is performed. My only point is, abortion is not the answer.

You wrote "one can't tamper with a woman's reproductive rights in the name of tackling social issues". What I was trying to say is that abortion can oftentimes BE a social issue wherein a woman's reproductive rights are being tampered with in the very commplace even that the teenager/woman is being pressured into getting an abortion.
What about also the very real phenomenon that men who don't want to financially support their child can pressure the woman into having an abortion?
Sorry, I just fail to see how abortion rights liberate women. As far as I can see, abortion rights just enable the patriarchy to have women conform to what they see fit. Every approved societal tradition is patriarchal--the scorn visited upon unmarried pregnant woman is hugely patriarchal and it is the patriarchy that would also suggest that the solution to that scorn is to interfere with the woman's pregnancy. People can spin it any way they want but ultimately abortion keeps women in their place--the place determined by the whim of the patriarchy.

#22

"even" should say "event"

"Abortion in the second and third trimester IS legal in this country. So, I just wanted to clarify that fact. One does not need to prove a medical problem to have one done during 2nd trimester."

Abortion in second trimester and third trimesters is not legal in all cases and in all states in the US. Late term abortions are subject to the woman's health.

Anyway, 90% of all abortions in the US occur in the first trimester. Less than 1% happen in the third trimester.

OK. That is totally different than saying that 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are not legal. I know in the state I am in right now they are perfectly legal at least 1st and 2nd trimester, not sure about the 3rd.

What makes human life so special?

“There is no right to life in any society on Earth today, nor has there been at any former time… : We raise farm animals for slaughter; destroy forests; pollute rivers and lakes until no fish can live there; kill deer and elk for sport, leopards for the pelts, and whales for fertilizer; entrap dolphins, gasping and writhing, in great tuna nets; club seal pups to death; and render a species extinct every day.

All these beasts and vegetables are as alive as we. What is (allegedly) protected is not life, but human life”.
CS+AD

Anyway, the federal government should not have made the decision for all states legalizing abortion. That should be left up to the individual states whether it should be legal, I feel.

This is such a serious matter for young women, single, married, and young and old so that it should not be trivialized or marketed and packaged in the manner that both John McCain and Sarah Palin did at the Republican convention.

One person cannot dictate to all persons a way of life simply because that person chooses it. Because Sarah was able to accept her daughter's errant ways does not mean that all parents would be so kind or thoughtful as to react in that way. Even bragging that the boy will marry her. The need for sensible attitudes about abortion are such that that act of Sarah's and John's was an insult to the women who need health care, good sound advice, and practical attitudes towards childbirth.

We do not need a dictatorial attitude from government due to church or religious bias as both Palin and McCain demonstrate. We need good medical sense, and sound healthy attitudes about how to best help young girls, even older married women who have had too many children due to excessive lustful behaviour to be able to make good choices regarding abortion or childbirth.

This is a government decision to determine laws which help young women, prevent self-destructive patterns, and to give them medical attention when needed. Roe vs. Wade should not be repealed, but stronger better national and federal laws should be clarified and made into law to protect American women who are in need.

Have compassion folks and a little less judgmental punitive behaviour. Stop sounding like life has to be one picture only, and that is your picture! America is a nation for many people to live life freely, and one single group should not ever impose its will upon the whole as McCain and Palin appear to be trying to do. For shame!

Dear Betsy,

REgarding your comment that man's law has taken over God's law, what is God's law about abortion? And how do you know?

Also, we are not a "sick society" just because of a movie or a television program. Sex as a commodity always sells, and all of television and movies, entertainment of any kind is about profits and ratings. As a viewer, all you have to do is change the channel if you do not like the program. That is why there are so many different channels available. Try travel, food, or discover channel if you do not approve the commercial television industry which is only pandering to the viewers' tastes.

My best to you,

Dear Arizonasunset,

I am still in strong disagreement with you.

The young people who are exposed to the media bombardment of distasteful programming do not yet have the judgement or discretionary abilities to choose wisely. The young are influenced more by their peer groups and the latest fashion trends than they are by any sense of whether or not the information that they are being fed is an acceptable norm.

There is a lot of brainwashing going on and there are usually no voices of reason to intercede.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.

Dear Arizonasunset,

I would like to further address some of your statements. You have said, "We do not need a dictatorial attitude from government due to church or religious bias as Palin and McCain demonstrate". We already have a government that is dictatorial without the consideration of any religious guidance. Where has this gotten the country? We are currently in a state of chaos!! When you remove the consideration of asking for spiritual guidance in the issuance of any governmental law then the result is chaos!

You have said, "This is a government decision to determine laws which help young women, prevent self destructive patterns, and to give them medical attention when needed". Stronger national and federal laws will in no way prevent the self destructive behavior of young women or anyone else.

Government will never be able to replace the guidance that a proper education can supply. Our education system needs to be teaching the value of treating one's body with proper respect and the consequences of violating those values, along with the dangers involved. Instead, the educational system is teaching youngsters how to use birth control items, not how to refrain from having to result to the use of said items. The educational system condones dangerous sexual activity by its focus on how to avoid the consequences of unacceptable behavior. The emphasis should be on the many unsavory consequences of the activity; such as, the imbalance caused to the spiritual, emotional, and physical bodies.

Best Wishes,

"Betsy" S.