Who is going to war and where?

The talk Pranab Mukherjee is doing is to put pressure on Pakistan. Do you think India will go to war and in recessionary times like? Who will allow them to go to war, they have to fight elections next year, and they also know that a war can turn the table any side. Nobody is going for a war :)

You appear to be very angry with the people taking to streets at Gateway of India. After a long time urban India has come out angry against the politicians and bureaucracy and they have come out on streets in non violent way, I do not think it is not endless tamasha, as it was carried out only on Wednesday.

On the same lines, you also had planned a tamasha with Nisha , Shilpa , Karan Johar et al at Mantralaya? Did it work out, I did not get any update. So the elite of Mumbai (particularly filmy elite) only have the right to carry out tamasha, possibly because they are tamasha professionals.

Common man also has the rights to come on streets and vent their anger. Intellectuals like you have to understand them.

I get confused with your post as I do not get a central theme, and there are lot of assumptions.

No the common people can protest, but it won't lead anywhere except to mindless acts by politicians to appease them. What we need now is thought and thought backed action. We need rallies with agendas, not tamashas that prove to be photo opps for celebrities. And who told you yesterdays rally did not see celebrities in it? Far more than previous ones. Point is who remembers what was said? What point was made? Which government official listened and took a call to respond? What is going to come of it? Who is taking responsibility for the future? Who is going to act?

THIS IS BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!!!

India is a glorious thriving democracy. ... We are by the people, for the people, of the people. We have voices (yes, even stupid ones), we have freedom of speech, we have choice, we have a free market, we have opportunity. Yes we have issues. Yes we have minorities who want better treatment. Yes we lack education, jobs, food, employment. But for pete's sake, the Judiciary keeps our politicians in check, and the politicians and the army keep each other in fine balance.

Understand the beauty of what we have.

Understand what our forefathers fought for, why people martyred themselves for this -- for what we have now.

Then make your list of demands and work with the government and follow them through. Hold every politician you have voted to power accountable for every bit of taxpayer money you are paying his salary with. Don't stand on the road and scream inanities like some naive child who is not going to know what you've got till you've lost it.

[This Taj explosion of violence was not really ABOUT religion, no matter what some may be saying.] ... Forty-eight MUSLIMS died in the terror attack on Mumbai. The first name on the list was the name of a 5-year-old Muslim boy. The next five names were of his Muslim uncles and parents. ... I am proud that nobody today in India is pointing a finger at the Indian Muslim. No one will. That is the first step toward the demolition of the concept of "The Other." Merging into the mainstream means equality of education, of literature, music, sports, pop culture. Let your voices be heard, not as individuals within a special community, religious or other, but as Indians.

I DO BELIEVE DR. CONDOLEEZA RICE IS ENCOURAGING PAKISTAN TO DEAL WITH THE EXTREMIST CELLS WITHIN PAKISTAN'S BORDERS. Pakistan's political situation is complicated, because the peace-seeking president there is hated by the Pakistani military and intelligence community, or something like that, and I believe the military there both fosters and fights the extremist cells at the same time. Kind of all mixed up.

#2, your writing appears familiar.

Common man's collective anger has a force, which acts like an actuator in a political system. It sets up the direction of an electoral wave.

Who will listen to whom? The business owners,corporate CEOs, intellectuals, artists; who is their to pursue the citizen's agenda even if you hand it over to highest authorities of our system? It appears you have not observed closely, that how businesses are involved with politics :)

Reactions of all types are futile whether focused or collective. Proactive actions call for the awakening of the right people to enter into politics, bureaucracy and change the system from with in.

In any case, there can be always more rallies by the dedicated people with focus to ensure accountability. But what is so bad about common people coming out on streets and venting their anger, for single evening on a single day?

The original writing appears elitist for no reason called for.

Shiva has come to destroy the illusions of the world, here and now, this includes the source disconnected ego. All those that cling to the illusions will parish with them.

Cling to the love in your heart it is the only thing that is real, and the flames will not burn you as they consume those clinging to that which is false.

May the source be with you

Read the Lethal Text, lethal to the world's fictions, they have already set the destiny in motion. You will find the knowing to speak to destroy the Illusion of seperation.

Click my name or Google it in quotes.

What is Lethal Text?
■The Apocalypse αποκάλυψις Began (it's all about the revelation)
■On The Rise Apostasy (dissolution of institutional religion leaving the underlying spirituality intact)
■The Antichrist exposed (dissolution institutional religion leaving the underlying spirituality intact)
■Easter the resurrection of a truth lost
■A world of Fiction
■The cults of social fiction
■Knowing, possibility, and probability in contrast to fictions and belief.
■A world without belief - The Infinite Player

How to make Pakistan act on these Terrorist Training
Camps which are created /funded and trained by its own Security Agency?
Recalling envoys will not help. Breaking the ties will
not help .Attacking Pakistan will lead to catastrophe.
UN authorized Sanctions will breed more terrorists in that
Country. Talking to them will not help since the only thing
We get is empty promises.

Yes, Indians can not afford a war, you have rightly picked the title.

"Anger is a good thing when channelized"
You have caught the crux here. I agree to your point that citizen's have a right to protest, but the results shall come out of it. Otherwise, this outrage will be just wasted on the streets.

"We need security irrespective of who is sitting in chair" .
Another brilliant point Gayatri. This is what we call, make the process so strong that it does not depend on the people working on it. basically you are asking for the reforms in the system; like crisis management, intelligence gather & sharing etc.

"Condolezza Rice is goading us to war"
No this is not really correct Gayatri. She is a dilpomat, just doing diplomacy. No one can afford a war, US has much more stakes in India.

" Congress will not come to power and so they would like to go to war"
I do not agree to this as well Gayatri. Someone has pointed out above rightly that a war is so big a risk, Congress can not dare, better not,as it will turn the tide turtle on them for sure.

"RDX at CST"
This was a big blunder on the part of authorities which did not result in another massacre. Surely some heads shall roll for this also, in your words.

"India is a glorious thriving democracy. People who have said we are no better than Pakistan are welcome to shift there. I will help you pack. We are by the people, for the people, of the people. We have voices, yes even stupid ones, we have freedom of speech, we have choice, we have a free market, we have opportunity. Yes we have issues. Yes we have minorities who want better treatment. Yes we lack education, jobs, food, employment. But for pete's sake, the Judiciary keeps our politicians in check and the politicians and the army kep each other in fine balance. Understand the beauty of what we have. Understand what our forefathers fought for. why people martyred themselves for this - for what we have now. Then make your list of demands and work with the government and follow them through. Hold every politician you have voted to power accountable for every paise of tax payer money you are paying his salary with." This is waht is the essence of India.
So nicely put up Gayatri. I would like to hug you for that.

"If minorities want to be a legitimate part of the system, they have to step up and demand equality, not privilege. Walk with us in our fight, don't cow down in fear of stereotyping and religious persecution. This is a fight in which we are all dying. Understand that that means merging into the system. I am proud that nobody today in India is pointing a finger at the Indian Muslim. No one will. That is the first step towards the demolition of the 'Other'. Merging into the mainstream means equality of education, of literature, music, sport, pop culture, let your voices be heard, not as individuals within a community, but as Indians."
Absolutely! This is what we all shall realize let us look forward to equality of all instead of privileges promoted by politicians.

"Clean up your back yard and then call us, we'll talk" That makes sense.

In fact your post is very much to the point and you have got the pulse right. We need more journalist like you to take up the citizens' cause in India.

Yes, Indians can not afford a war, you have rightly picked the title.

"Anger is a good thing when channelized"
You have caught the crux here. I agree to your point that citizen's have a right to protest, but the results shall come out of it. Otherwise, this outrage will be just wasted on the streets.

"We need security irrespective of who is sitting in chair" .
Another brilliant point Gayatri. This is what we call, make the process so strong that it does not depend on the people working on it. basically you are asking for the reforms in the system; like crisis management, intelligence gather & sharing etc.

"Condolezza Rice is goading us to war"
No this is not really correct Gayatri. She is a dilpomat, just doing diplomacy. No one can afford a war, US has much more stakes in India.

" Congress will not come to power and so they would like to go to war"
I do not agree to this as well Gayatri. Someone has pointed out above rightly that a war is so big a risk, Congress can not dare, better not,as it will turn the tide turtle on them for sure.

"RDX at CST"
This was a big blunder on the part of authorities which did not result in another massacre. Surely some heads shall roll for this also, in your words.

"India is a glorious thriving democracy. People who have said we are no better than Pakistan are welcome to shift there. I will help you pack. We are by the people, for the people, of the people. We have voices, yes even stupid ones, we have freedom of speech, we have choice, we have a free market, we have opportunity. Yes we have issues. Yes we have minorities who want better treatment. Yes we lack education, jobs, food, employment. But for pete's sake, the Judiciary keeps our politicians in check and the politicians and the army kep each other in fine balance. Understand the beauty of what we have. Understand what our forefathers fought for. why people martyred themselves for this - for what we have now. Then make your list of demands and work with the government and follow them through. Hold every politician you have voted to power accountable for every paise of tax payer money you are paying his salary with." This is waht is the essence of India.
So nicely put up Gayatri. I would like to hug you for that.

"If minorities want to be a legitimate part of the system, they have to step up and demand equality, not privilege. Walk with us in our fight, don't cow down in fear of stereotyping and religious persecution. This is a fight in which we are all dying. Understand that that means merging into the system. I am proud that nobody today in India is pointing a finger at the Indian Muslim. No one will. That is the first step towards the demolition of the 'Other'. Merging into the mainstream means equality of education, of literature, music, sport, pop culture, let your voices be heard, not as individuals within a community, but as Indians."
Absolutely! This is what we all shall realize let us look forward to equality of all instead of privileges promoted by politicians.

"Clean up your back yard and then call us, we'll talk" That makes sense.

In fact your post is very much to the point and you have got the pulse right. We need more journalist like you to take up the citizens' cause in India.

Did you get my earlier comment?

I have read the whole post of Gayatri again today. Except for the common man part,the whole writing makes a lot of sense.

It truly reflects the practical problems and required solutions with very balanced perspectives.

Good piece of journalism, wish you can share this article with masses in TOI or elsewhere.

Sunday December 7, 2008
""""""""" Pakistan's air force was on highest alert after a man claiming to be the Indian foreign minister telephoned the president of Pakistan. ... A hoax caller claiming to be India's foreign minister threatened Pakistan's president with war during the final hours of the Mumbai attacks, prompting Islamabad to put its air force on its highest alert for nearly 24 hours, a news report said Saturday. """""""""""""

Thank God Pakistan's president showed restraint!!! Wonder if the hotel attacks in Mumbai were meant to create believability in the Pakistani president's mind that India would indeed have actually made such a phone call and then ...off to send his own air force bombers over to India. This sounds like an internal power struggle in Pakistan, with the hotel attacker's people trying to get the Pakistani president to be the one to launch a seemingly appropriate defensive or retaliatory attack against India, when the REAL ones who wanted to launch the air force attack by Pakistan were the hotel attackers, the hoax caller (their friend), and their sponsors, perhaps Pakistani security forces and military, who do not like the Pakistani president because he wants peace. Seemingly, India has had nothing to do with any of this. It has shown restraint. Thank God the Pakistani president has shown restraint. Seems to me the whole sad and bloody mess has been a fake drama and set-up created by the pro-war forces, the anti-President interests in Pakistan to get the Pakistani president to attack India. Wonder who the pro-war forces really are.

Here is the article.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-pakistan-india7-2008dec07,0,1756912.story

Pakistan's air force was on highest alert after a man claiming to be the Indian foreign minister called the president of Pakistan.
By Laura King and Henry Chu
December 7, 2008
Reporting from New Delhi and Islamabad, Pakistan -- A hoax caller claiming to be India's foreign minister threatened Pakistan's president with war during the final hours of the Mumbai attacks, prompting Islamabad to put its air force on its highest alert for nearly 24 hours, a news report said Saturday. Meanwhile, Indian authorities reported the first arrests since the end of last month's siege in India's commercial and entertainment capital, which killed more than 170 people. Police said they had detained two men, one in New Delhi and one in the eastern city of Kolkata, formerly Calcutta, who owned the cellphone cards that were later used by the attackers. Indian police have been interrogating the lone captured suspect, a young man they have identified as Ajmal Amir Kasab, who they say is from the Pakistani village of Faridkot. Pakistani officials have expressed doubt that the man is a Pakistani, but Britain's Observer newspaper reported today that it had obtained voter registration rolls and the national identity card numbers of the man's parents, confirming that he was from the village, which is in the Punjab province. The hoax call and subsequent air force alert, reported by Pakistan's English-language Dawn newspaper, underscored the volatile atmosphere between the nuclear-armed neighbors during the 60-hour Mumbai rampage by gunmen that began the night of Nov. 26. Relations have remained tense. The report also seemed certain to raise new questions about the competence of Pakistan's government, elected less than a year ago. It has been criticized for promising to send the chief of its main spy agency to help India in the investigation, then reneging after objections from the opposition and the security establishment. The Dawn account said it took the intercession of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and others to establish that the Indian foreign minister, Pranab Mukherjee, had not made the call to President Asif Ali Zardari threatening military action on the night of Nov. 28. A U.S. Embassy spokesman, Lou Fintor, said he was not aware of such an incident. Pakistan's Information Ministry said in a statement that the call in question was put through because it was believed to have come from a recognized exchange within India's Foreign Ministry. A Western diplomat and a Pakistani security official confirmed the broad outlines of the Dawn account. India has blamed Pakistan-based militants for the attacks, but not the Pakistani state. Pakistan has denied any official involvement, and there is widespread public anger in the country over India's accusations about Pakistani elements even before the siege ended. During the alert, Pakistani warplanes patrolled with live weapons, Dawn said. At the time, senior intelligence officials also suggested to reporters that Pakistan might shift tens of thousands of troops to the Indian frontier. Two arrests reported Saturday by Indian authorities could help support a thesis that the Pakistani militant group had local accomplices. But a police official cautioned that the two men did not necessarily have direct links to the attackers or advance knowledge of the plot. And security officials later said that one of the men is a counter-insurgency police officer who may have been on an undercover mission, the Associated Press reported. Officials said the arrested pair had bought large batches of cellphone SIM cards that included one later used by the gunmen during the attacks. Police say the gunmen were in touch by cellphone with handlers in Pakistan during the siege, allegedly seeking advice. Police have released information about another Indian who they say was recruited by the Pakistani group Lashkar-e-Taiba to scout possible target sites in Mumbai, including some of those that were hit during the attacks. Police say he had maps of the sites. Although it has not been established whether the man was directly connected to the attacks, outrage in India has grown over the perceived failure of authorities to act on intelligence pointing to an imminent strike on Mumbai. On Friday, India's new home minister acknowledged that there had been "lapses" in security.

Pakistani govt and the bureaucrats are so unscrupulous, so wretched in ethics, that they can fake this call as a means to justify the shift of military forces on Indian border.

The war does not really break out on such miscommunication, there are several levels of feedback mechanism surely at both the ends.

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Whew! ....Merely border redeployments.... that truly is a relief. Thank you. That hoax phone call would have caused panic and cleared the way for more-serious conflict but perhaps not full-out war (even though some reaction did occur).
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All in all, I have been so encouraged to see the restraint and measuredness of the response by India and by the president and people of Pakistan. The Pakistanis and Indians I know in West Palm Beach are all lovely and friendly people of gentleness and kindness. Surely these are two nations whose peoples down in their hearts really want no more of the animosity between Muslim and Hindu that has existed since the Great Partition of 1947, when India was split into two parts and the Muslims went to Pakistan and the Hindus stayed in India.
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Especially interesting in this light is the post of a few days ago concerning the religion called Sikhism, which is in a way a sort of hybrid between Islam and Hinduism, combining aspects of Islamic mysticism (Sufism) and aspects of Hinduism. The post was simply descriptive, but in its way very evocative and lyrical, hope-filled. And I couldn't help wondering there for a moment, very optimistically, if peace would be better served if the Pakistanis and the Indians all adpted Sikhism as their religion. But of course, even if everyone in Pakistan and everyone in India suddenly converted to Sikhism, there could still be some lingering uneasiness between the two groups, since commonality of religion is apparently not sufficient condition for friendly relations, as within Islam itself, with the intra-Islam conflicts among the different Islamic sects ---- Sunni, Shiite, etc. (and there is one Muslim sect or school that begins with the letter A that is a very liberal, modern, open, and intellectual Islamic sect, paralleling perhaps the relationship that exists within Judaism between Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism). And on a further negative note, alas, even if all Pakistanis and all Indians did convert to Sikhism, something in me seems to remember that the Sikh religion itself is not any more [or any less] committed to the principle of peace than are most other religions. Still, the Pakistanis and the Indians look so very much alike and have so many other commonalities that the animosity between them seems even extra sad, sort of as if brothers cannot get along. (Of course, who is going to fight, really, except people who live close enough together to get at each other's throats? Unless, of course, your country is rich enough to sponsor war halfway around the globe... [sigh])
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Looks like what people really have to fall back on is their gut level human desire for peace, their desire that the conflict not be carried on to their children's generation. The present generation is trying very hard to stop the hatred, it seems to me, even as a few malevolent, clandestine war-lovers carry out savage and destructive attacks sponsored by hidden behind-the-scenes cynical interests, probably greed or revenge or political ambition, etc., etc.
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I wish my own country could be setting a better example. Certainly I am pinning my hopes on Obama and Hillary Clinton and hope Hillary will not be a hawk. I love them both.

Let me clarify some of your thoughts.

1. Sikhism is not a hybrid of Islam -Sufism and Hiduism. Sikhism was originally a militant face of Punjabi hindus to fight against the oppression of Mughals. In 1947 partition, there were maximum casualties of Sikhs at the hand of muslims and vice-versa.

2. Your quote "Surely these are two nations whose peoples down in their hearts really want no more of the animosity between Muslim and Hindu that has existed since the Great Partition of 1947, when India was split into two parts and the Muslims went to Pakistan and the Hindus stayed in India." .
Incorrect.
Only Muslims went to Pakistan and Hindus & Muslims continued to live in India.

3. Problem is not religion , We in India have more Muslims than are there in Pakistan, and we are and will live with them peacefully.

4. In west Palm beach both Indian and Pakistanis look lovable, yes in India we also love the common man across the border. But we do not love their governments ( very few democratically elected since partition) and funded by your country for the vested interests across over the years. The ISI, Taliban and North West frontiers which are known for global terrorism are the Franksteins created by funds from US to fight against Russian occupied Afghanistan.

5. Your country can not set any example.

"yes in India we also love the common man across the border"

this is SO NICE!!!

and thank you for the facts on the other points

Sikhism was originally a militant face of Punjabi hindus to fight against the oppression of Mughals. In 1947 partition, there were maximum casualties of Sikhs at the hand of muslims and vice-versa

Only Muslims went to Pakistan and Hindus & Muslims continued to live in India

Problem is not religion , We in India have more Muslims than are there in Pakistan, and we are and will live with them peacefully (this is WONDERFUL to knwo--actually I Knew it, but it slipped my mind in the heat of composition)

Your country [U.S.] can not set any example.

thank you, Charlie

do the Muslims in Pakistan and the Muslims in India respect each other?

Monday morning, December 8

Pakistan arrests Mumbai mastermind, reports say

by Haroon Siddique

Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, named by sole surviving attacker as ringleader, held in raid on militant camp in Pakistani KashmirThe suspected planner of last month's Mumbai terror attacks has been arrested in a raid on a militant group in Pakistan, an official close to the extremist organisation said today.
The official from Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), the charity and education arm of the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, told Reuters that Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi was among four men taken into custody after a raid yesterday on a camp outside Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistani Kashmir.

Lakhvi, one of Lashkar's operations chiefs, was named as a ringleader in the Mumbai plot by Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone surviving gunmen captured after the attacks, according to Indian officials

There has been no official confirmation of the raid but Pakistani intelligence officers told Reuters six men were arrested. No names were given. The Associated Press reported that more than 12 people were arrested.

The operation is the first known action by Islamabad in response to the attacks, which sharply raised tensions between Pakistan and India.

Troops briefly exchanged fire with people at the camp and several injured people were being treated at a military hospital, AP reported.

The attacks in Mumbai, which began on November 26, left 163 people dead. Indian police say 10 gunmen were responsible.

Jane,

When I say your country can not set an example, it refers to the policies of US govt particularly in reference to South Asia which has resulted in lot of mess.

Your country and its people are great as in any country.