Hello DK,

DK, you write, "Dear Friends, we are deeply troubled to note 971 dead in Gaza: 311 children & 76 women; 4,418 injured: 1,549 children & 652 women."

I find it interesting that the whole world is troubled by the dead and wounded in Gaza, except, of course, their own leadership, where, it seems, these numbers are not nearly enough to put a dent in their useless, reckless, repeated and defiant rocket launchings. Nope, they keep right on marching to the tune of "we are the victims," but, no, that is not entirely true, Hamas, is no victim...just their citizens under the care of this cold and calculating leadership that turn a blind eye to their own people's sufferings..

Your persistence in discussing an unbiased look at this situation is very much appreciated.

The lede of your last post on this issue was "What is the fault of the children of Gaza..." -- just so.

The toll of innocent Gazans is too high. The reaction in other countries is counter to what Israel needs, if it's Israel's intent to coexist peacefully in this world.

Israel is creating a very large black swan of overreaction which will produce additional overreactions.

Hamas's actions and reactions were predictable, and small, compared with Israel's response.

There comes a time when self-defense becomes a bullying stance. This is the edge Israel is now on.

This action is counter-productive and unwise. It's unfair, it's overreactionary, it teaches nothing except resentment, anger and hatred, it creates an environment that fosters years of further terrorism.

These are the same arguments that we who've discussed the issues in Iraq have used against the US's decisions of the past.

Does Israel have a right to claim an exemption to these practical, ethical and compassionate arguments?

No.

What if India had decided to hit back at Pakistan after 26/11? India has been infinitely more provoked by Pakistan and the terrorist organizations it's sheltered, than Israel has by Hamas.

Does Israel as a political entity and a people have no self-control, no wisdom, no forbearance?

Israel is punishing little children who live in a land populated by people whom Israelis displaced 60 years ago, because Israel is worried that what happened 70 years ago on another continent will happen again now in Israel.

I can't think of a better way to ensure that my neighbor who has been my enemy remains my enemy than to fight with him. Especially if I'm hurting his kids, withholding food, clothing, shelter, heat and peace... will he love me at the end of the day? Nope.

It hurts to read the war-like positions, and the historically-biased views that I've been reading here. I would have thought the dialogue over Iraq would have opened up some eyes and hearts here.

It doesn't matter if someone has been doing wrong in the past. The ONLY hope short of completely eliminating the person or people (otherwise known as murder, which makes the "good guy" as bad as the bad guy) is to stop labeling someone "the enemy".

There has to be movement towards a peaceful world. Those who are strong right now need to take the lead to making peace, not continue to live in a fantasy world that needs a war machine / industry to support internal positions of power and politics.

The US is on its way to stopping this kind of stuff. Will -- can -- Israel do the same?

Who will be the first country with the courage to dismantle it's war machine?

peace will never come from war
it will only come from peace
peace will never come from anger and posturing
it will only come from humility
peace will never come from judgment of others
it will only come from acceptance
peace will never come from the hunger for power
it will only come from compassion
peace will never come from the absence of evil
it will only come from love

peace comes from peace

derek

A child of abuse often grows up to be an abuser.

Peace comes one at a time. I cannot see another way.
You are so right, Derek. Only a person truly at peace can deliver peace to another. It's a vibe that can quicken to a crescendo. Critical mass and the snowball effect will do it.
Meanwhile, we must quietly work on ourselves among neighbours, whoever and wherever we meet.

Ruth,

I beg to differ. The immediate cause of the current wave of violence was not Hamas.

Gaza was under siege for almost 20 months - even the most basic staple had to be smuggled in to the strip, they could not bring it in open. Then there was a truce on the condition that the blockade will be lifted and Hamas should stop the rockets and Israel would not attack the Palestinian territory.

Hamas honored the terms but Israel did not. Yet, Hamas continued to commit itself to it. Then Hamas asked Israel to implement the terms of the cease-fire so that they can bring in things for their sustenance and suggested to extend it to west bank. It was not done.

Then on Nov 4th and 7th, Israel attacked the territory and killed Palestinians again. Then Hamas responded with the rockets. Yes, it could have acted differently, not the conditioned responds that they preferred. You can blame them for that.

But let us not say that they did not care for those dead. Had they not, they would have breached the terms long ago by firing the rockets, when Israel did not implement the terms at all from day one.

And as Fisk suggested (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/07-7
), let 'us' not pretend that we do not know why they hate us.

"I can't think of a better way to ensure that my neighbor who has been my enemy remains my enemy than to fight with him. Especially if I'm hurting his kids, withholding food, clothing, shelter, heat and peace... will he love me at the end of the day? Nope"

Thanks heath for these lines.

"Those who are strong right now need to take the lead to making peace, not continue to live in a fantasy world that needs a war machine / industry to support internal positions of power and politics."

The problem with power is that it attracts only those who should not have it.

I appreciate all these perspectives presented yet had a tender feeling that Ed best expressed my hopes and experience that others may hopefully share as well.
In my healing from trauma I have had the benefit of a tremendous team of healers who, over time and with patience have guided me into slowly trusting the world again. It cannot be forced, only allowed to blossom.
Perhaps in the near future a team of just such centered, noble healers may be present to assist the entire populations of both countries, all countries to bring our humanity into new focus and common destiny.

morning folk,

heath you write, "Hamas's actions and reactions were predictable, and small, compared with Israel's response."......

Well, one could just as easily say Hamas's actions and reactions were and are predictable and small which includes the ratio of which side is suffering the most as a result of their predictable smallness, and, once again, after how many of these very predictable and small conflicts, who is bearing the brunt of dead and suffering, the Palestinians, yes, very predictable but never too small. I guess the dead citizens under the Hamas leadership are not so much a concern for them, in their predictable and small thinking process, I mean, what? it is just another 976 Palestinians offered up by this leadership, Hamas, for the so-called "greater good" of which has never come, in what has it been...50 years of promises.

you write....
There comes a time when self-defense becomes a bullying stance. This is the edge Israel is now on.......

There comes a time when the "Resistance" stance becomes just plain "sadistic."

heath you write, "Israel is punishing little children who live in a land populated by people whom Israelis displaced 60 years ago, because Israel is worried that what happened 70 years ago on another continent will happen again now in Israel."......

I do not think the above is quite correct, history wise, but, for sure it is not Israel punishing Palestinian children, it is Hamas, who have decided to put their children under fire, once again.

These citizens, these children, these victims, are the responsibility of the Hamas leadership, only, and, you, cannot argue that away. Leaders do everything they can to save their citizen's lives, they do not purposely put them in the line of fire, year, after, year, after year, as Hamas is doing.

Israel on the other hand can account for all the children under their care...

oh well, I do hold Hamas responsible, I wouldn't give them an inch for a but, I would just count their dead and sufferings as my proof.

For years this conflict goes like this, rockets launched into Israel, Israel responds, Palestinian citizens get bombed, die, suffer great hardship. The world yells, enough,(of course, you never hear enough by Hamas or Hezbollah, no, the more Israel bombs and kills, the better it is for Hamas/Hezbollah's self image of being the "great victims" or the "little guy fighting the "giant") Israel is considered the big bad bully lusting for Palestinian blood and land, Hamas and Hezbollah are heros to their citizens and all is quite until next time. Of course, the Palestinian people still have nothing more to show for the sacrifce of all those women and children......but we all know who is responsible for that.....yes, Israel, but, oh, wait....funny thing is they(Palestinians) are rich in one thing, and one thing only.....ROCKETS...for the next go round.

enough of this..yes, Israel has their share of shame for behaviors that keep this conflict, alive and well, but Hamas and the Palestinian people need to be taken to task for allowing their leaders to use them as bomb magnets, or sacrifical lambs over and over again with nothing, at all, to show for the lives they throw away each and every conflict....you are right, Heath, these are predictable and small actions and reactions played out almost yearly.

have a good day everyone, ruth

Below is from an article in the nytimes.com, titled...... Why Israel cannot make Peace with Hamas........it is only part of the article...but I think it is an interesting info........

Today, there is no doubt that Rantisi’s view holds sway inside the organization, and many in Hamas wish for even closer ties with Tehran, particularly over the past month as they have absorbed a battering from Israel. Even those who believe that Iran is secretly trying to bring Sunni Palestinians to Shiism acknowledge anti-Israel Shiites as ideals of resistance.

Should Israel (and by extension, the United States) try to engage Hamas in a substantive and sustained manner?

It is a fair question, one worth debating, but it is unmoored from certain political and theological realities. One irresistible reality grows from Hamas’s complicated, competitive relationship with Hezbollah. For Hamas, Hezbollah is not only a source of weapons and instruction, it is a mentor and role model.

Hamas’s desire to best Hezbollah’s achievements is natural, of course, but, more to the point, it is radicalizing. One of the reasons, among many, that Hamas felt compelled to break its cease-fire with Israel last month was to prove its potency to Muslims impressed with Hezbollah.

Another reality worth considering concerns theology. Hamas and Hezbollah emerged from very different streams of Islam: Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood; Hezbollah is an outright Iranian proxy that takes its inspiration from the radical Shiite politics of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. But the groups share a common belief that Jews are a cosmological evil, enemies of Islam since Muhammad sought refuge in Medina.

Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven’t heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.

I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi where he learned what he called “the truth” of the Holocaust — that it didn’t happen — and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim “liberation” of Palestine “can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.” He went on to argue that the Jews are a “curse to anyone who lives near them.”

Nizar Rayyan expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: “We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ‘Death to Israel!’”

Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,” Mr. Rayyan said. “So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.”

I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan

ruth

#7 With you, Adam :) I'm plucking up courage, myself....to follow my heart!

Someone once said, "We have all the power of the Universe within us, but only a mere dribble passes through us."

"These things shall be, a loftier race
than e'er the world hath known shall rise
with flame of freedom in their souls
and light of knowledge in their eyes.
They shall be gentle, brave and strong,
to spill no drop of blood, but dare all...
On sea and fire and air.
And every life shall be a song."

John Addington Symonds (October 5, 1840 - April 19, 1893)

Good grief, it's 2009, now!!!!

"I write this article to Western readers across the social and political spectrum as the Israeli war machine continues to massacre my people in Gaza. To date, almost 1,000 have been killed, nearly half of whom are women and children. Last week's bombing of the UNRWA (UN Relief Works Agency) school in the Jabalya refugee camp was one of the most despicable crimes imaginable, as hundreds of civilians had abandoned their homes and sought refuge with the international agency only to be mercilessly shelled and bombed by Israel. Forty-six children and women were killed in that heinous attack while scores were injured.

Evidently, Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 did not end its occupation nor, as a result, its international obligations as an occupying power. It continued to control and dominate our borders by land, sea and air. Indeed the UN has confirmed that between 2005 and 2008, the Israeli army killed nearly 1,250 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. For most of that period the border crossings have remained effectively closed, with only limited quantities of food, industrial fuel, animal feed and a few other essential items, allowed in.

Despite its frantic efforts to conceal it, the root cause of Israel's criminal war on Gaza is the elections of January 2006, which saw Hamas win by a substantial majority. What occurred next was that Israel alongside the United States and the European Union joined forces in an attempt to quash the democratic will of the Palestinian people. They set about reversing the decision first by obstructing the formation of a national unity government and then by making a living hell for the Palestinian people through economic strangulation. The abject failure of all these machinations finally led to this vicious war. Israel's objective is to silence all voices that express the will of the Palestinian; thereafter it would impose its own terms for a final settlement depriving us of our land, our right to Jerusalem as the rightful capital of our future state and the Palestinian refugees' right to return to their homes.

Ultimately, the comprehensive siege on Gaza, which manifestly violated the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibited the most basic medical supplies to our hospitals. It disallowed the delivery of fuel and supply of electricity to our population. And on top of all of this inhumanity, it denied them food and the freedom of movement, even to seek treatment. This led to the avoidable death of hundreds of patients and the spiralling rise of malnutrition among our children.

Palestinians are appalled that the members of the European Union do not view this obscene siege as a form of aggression. Despite the overwhelming evidence, they shamelessly assert that Hamas brought this catastrophe upon the Palestinian people because it did not renew the truce. Yet we ask, did Israel honour the terms of the ceasefire mediated by Egypt in June? It did not. The agreement stipulated a lifting of the siege and an end to attacks in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Despite our full compliance, the Israelis persisted in murdering Palestinians in Gaza as well as the West Bank during what became known as the year of the Annapolis peace.

None of the atrocities committed against our schools, universities, mosques, ministries and civil infra-structure would deter us in the pursuit of our national rights. Undoubtedly, Israel could demolish every building in the Gaza Strip but it would never shatter our determination or steadfastness to live in dignity on our land. Surely, if the gathering of civilians in a building only to then bomb it or the use of phosphorous bombs and missiles are not war crimes, then what is? How many more international treaties and conventions must Zionist Israel breach before it is held accountable? There is not a capital in the world today where free and decent people are not outraged by this brutal oppression. Neither Palestine nor the world would be the same after these crimes.

There is only one way forward and no other. Our condition for a new ceasefire is clear and simple. Israel must end its criminal war and slaughter of our people, lift completely and unconditionally its illegal siege of the Gaza Strip, open all our border crossings and completely withdraw from Gaza. After this we would consider future options. Ultimately, the Palestinians are a people struggling for freedom from occupation and the establishment of an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their villages from which they were expelled. Whatever the cost, the continuation of Israel's massacres will neither break our will nor our aspiration for freedom and independence. "

The writer is the Prime Minister of Gaza

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/ismail-haniyeh-my-message-to-the-west-ndash-israel-must-stop-the-slaughter-1366726.html

Ruth writes "but Hamas and the Palestinian people need to be taken to task for allowing their leaders to use them as bomb magnets, or sacrifical lambs over and over again with nothing, at all, to show for the lives they throw away each and every conflict"

Can we say the same about Americans too, who elected a guy and he together with a bunch of other criminals started an unprovoked war and who continue to insist that the invasion was the right thing to do? Can we hold the Americans responsible for the "deaths of 1.25 million Iraqis, the displacement of 4 million Iraqis, and the destruction of a country’s infrastructure and economy "?

http://www.counterpunch.com/roberts01142009.html

" I do hold Hamas responsible, I wouldn't give them an inch for a but, I would just count their dead and sufferings as my proof."

If, God forbid, an Iraqi carries out an attack in American soil for killing 1.2 millions of his countryment for nothing, will we say the same thing?

This reminds me of Saddam and Iraq. For those that don't know the full story as I understand it, seems one part of the equation gets left out; Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraq stealing oil. Iraq asked the US if they could go over the border a bit and stop it. The US more or less indicated they wouldn't make an issue of it. But Saddam got a little bit greedy and aggressive and went way to far. This was the first time the US entered Iraq.

It seems that those three individuals in Israel that decided to go into Gaza are doing and making the same mistake as Saddam did. I am sure they will achieve undesired consequences.

Undesired Consequences:

http://www.investigativeproject.org/

Richard-You speak about undesired consequences.
Harb wrote about a Hamassian Hitler.

Here is a story of Udham Singh, who was also known as Ram Mohammed Singh Azad.

"In 1940, almost 21 years after the Amritsar Massacre of 1919 in Punjab province of India, Singh shot dead Michael O'Dwyer at Caxton Hall in London. O'Dwyer had been Governor of the Punjab in 1919, when General Reginald Edward Harry Dyer ordered British troops to fire on unarmed Indian protesters, mostly Sikhs"

"Udham Singh mainly held Michael O'Dwyer responsible for what came to be known as the Amritsar Massacre. New research supporting this fact reveal the massacre to have occurred with the Governor's full connivance "to teach the Indians a lesson, to make a wide impression and to strike terror through-out Punjab".[10] The incident had greatly shaken young Udham Singh and proved a turning point in his life. After bathing in the holy sarovar (pool of nectar), Udham Singh took a silent vow and solemn pledge in front of the Golden Temple to wreak a vengeance on the perpetrators of the crime and to restore honour to what he saw as a humiliated nation"

"The most telling reaction came from the common man on the street who hailed Udham Singh as a hero and patriot. Indians all over regarded Singh's action as justified and an important step in India's struggle to end British colonial rule in India.[20] At a public meeting in Kanpur, a speaker stated that "at last an insult and humiliation of the nation had been avenged".

"Indian Government's own secret reports abundantly reveal that the murder of O'Dwyer had proved a catalyst to ignite and excite great satisfaction among the people of India"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udham_Singh

At this website:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_peace

one can sign a petition against this on-going ´slaughter´(my definition).

I signed already, they have already more than
400.000 voices. They are aiming at a million.

So no talking anymore, just VOTE!

Click my name

Hi Naj,

I wrote, "I guess the dead citizens under the Hamas leadership are not so much a concern for them, in their predictable and small thinking process, I mean, what? it is just another 976 Palestinians offered up by this leadership, Hamas, for the so-called "greater good" of which has never come, in what has it been...50 years of promises."

The Prime Minister of Gaza writes," There is only one way forward and no other. Our condition for a new ceasefire is clear and simple. Israel must end its criminal war and slaughter of our people, lift completely and unconditionally its illegal siege of the Gaza Strip, open all our border crossings and completely withdraw from Gaza. After this we would consider future options. Ultimately, the Palestinians are a people struggling for freedom from occupation and the establishment of an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their villages from which they were expelled. Whatever the cost, the continuation of Israel's massacres will neither break our will nor our aspiration for freedom and independence."

I rest my case.

This line from the Prime Minister of Gaza says it all though, "After this we would consider future options."...big of him...no?

all I can say to the Prime Minister of Gaza to his demands, is this......"good luck with that"

ruth

Dear Naj,

Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts.

Fact 1 - On numerous occasions has the leadreship of Hamas, Ilamic Jehad, Hezoballah mentioned in their public speeches that their goal is to kill every jew in israel. Even the supreme leadership of Iran has given such statements in full public view.

Fact 2 - Hamas, hezbollah etc are targetting JEWS. I repeat they are not targetting millitary establishments, but their objective of rocket fire is just to kill a jew or two. And whosoever claims that killing innocent civilians is a legitimate means of any form of human expression is a supporter of terrorism or and IDIOT.

Fact 3 - Israel has the capacity of wiping off gaza from the map. It is not doing so but specifically targetting those who are violating their human rights. Hamas does not have the capacity to obliterate Israel, if it gets such capability what happens next is anyone's guess. Hamas and others have continously been targetting civilian populations while Israel has not.

Fact 4- Palestenains civilian deaths are deeply tragic but are a collateral resulting out of targetting a fighting force which uses civilians as human shields. Any Israeli civilian death is pure murder as civilians are being specifically targetted.

Fact 5 - Palestenian society has been under siege and Mr. Naj and likes are shouting hoarse for lack of basic amenities. A society under siege does not focus on stocking on food and medicine or clothing or baby milk. But their core focus and efforts are towards stocking and firing rockets. I beleive 100 bags of food and medicine which would suffice a 1000 people for a month could have been smuggled for every rocket that has been fired. Looking for sympathy is such a scenario would be assuming that most of the civilized world is full of idiots which can be conned by such bullshit.

Fact 6 - Killing your enemy who threatens to kill you is a justified code of conduct in a war. Solidiers die in wars and civilians MUST not be targetted at any cost. But you cannot hold your enemy to ransom by shielding yourself among population and banking upon his goodness. If you start playing with fire crackers inside your house it is bound to get burnt. Everyone above the age of 16 in Palestine will understand that.

Fact 7 - 1000 deaths are very very tragic. How about those killed by Hamas these days in public executions. Court, trial and punishment in the name of god in 30 minutes flat. Such deaths also number more than 100. But i guess they are acceptable to Mr. Naj and do not fall under UN violations and human rights abuse.

Enough for now.

regards

Amit

Dear Naj,

Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts.

Fact 1 - On numerous occasions has the leadreship of Hamas, Ilamic Jehad, Hezoballah mentioned in their public speeches that their goal is to kill every jew in israel. Even the supreme leadership of Iran has given such statements in full public view.

Fact 2 - Hamas, hezbollah etc are targetting JEWS. I repeat they are not targetting millitary establishments, but their objective of rocket fire is just to kill a jew or two. And whosoever claims that killing innocent civilians is a legitimate means of any form of human expression is a supporter of terrorism or and IDIOT.

Fact 3 - Israel has the capacity of wiping off gaza from the map. It is not doing so but specifically targetting those who are violating their human rights. Hamas does not have the capacity to obliterate Israel, if it gets such capability what happens next is anyone's guess. Hamas and others have continously been targetting civilian populations while Israel has not.

Fact 4- Palestenains civilian deaths are deeply tragic but are a collateral resulting out of targetting a fighting force which uses civilians as human shields. Any Israeli civilian death is pure murder as civilians are being specifically targetted.

Fact 5 - Palestenian society has been under siege and Mr. Naj and likes are shouting hoarse for lack of basic amenities. A society under siege does not focus on stocking on food and medicine or clothing or baby milk. But their core focus and efforts are towards stocking and firing rockets. I beleive 100 bags of food and medicine which would suffice a 1000 people for a month could have been smuggled for every rocket that has been fired. Looking for sympathy is such a scenario would be assuming that most of the civilized world is full of idiots which can be conned by such bullshit.

Fact 6 - Killing your enemy who threatens to kill you is a justified code of conduct in a war. Solidiers die in wars and civilians MUST not be targetted at any cost. But you cannot hold your enemy to ransom by shielding yourself among population and banking upon his goodness. If you start playing with fire crackers inside your house it is bound to get burnt. Everyone above the age of 16 in Palestine will understand that.

Fact 7 - 1000 deaths are very very tragic. How about those killed by Hamas these days in public executions. Court, trial and punishment in the name of god in 30 minutes flat. Such deaths also number more than 100. But i guess they are acceptable to Mr. Naj and do not fall under UN violations and human rights abuse.

Enough for now.

regards

Amit

Dear Naj,

Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts.

Fact 1 - On numerous occasions has the leadreship of Hamas, Ilamic Jehad, Hezoballah mentioned in their public speeches that their goal is to kill every jew in israel. Even the supreme leadership of Iran has given such statements in full public view.

Fact 2 - Hamas, hezbollah etc are targetting JEWS. I repeat they are not targetting millitary establishments, but their objective of rocket fire is just to kill a jew or two. And whosoever claims that killing innocent civilians is a legitimate means of any form of human expression is a supporter of terrorism or and IDIOT.

Fact 3 - Israel has the capacity of wiping off gaza from the map. It is not doing so but specifically targetting those who are violating their human rights. Hamas does not have the capacity to obliterate Israel, if it gets such capability what happens next is anyone's guess. Hamas and others have continously been targetting civilian populations while Israel has not.

Fact 4- Palestenains civilian deaths are deeply tragic but are a collateral resulting out of targetting a fighting force which uses civilians as human shields. Any Israeli civilian death is pure murder as civilians are being specifically targetted.

Fact 5 - Palestenian society has been under siege and Mr. Naj and likes are shouting hoarse for lack of basic amenities. A society under siege does not focus on stocking on food and medicine or clothing or baby milk. But their core focus and efforts are towards stocking and firing rockets. I beleive 100 bags of food and medicine which would suffice a 1000 people for a month could have been smuggled for every rocket that has been fired. Looking for sympathy is such a scenario would be assuming that most of the civilized world is full of idiots which can be conned by such bullshit.

Fact 6 - Killing your enemy who threatens to kill you is a justified code of conduct in a war. Solidiers die in wars and civilians MUST not be targetted at any cost. But you cannot hold your enemy to ransom by shielding yourself among population and banking upon his goodness. If you start playing with fire crackers inside your house it is bound to get burnt. Everyone above the age of 16 in Palestine will understand that.

Fact 7 - 1000 deaths are very very tragic. How about those killed by Hamas these days in public executions. Court, trial and punishment in the name of god in 30 minutes flat. Such deaths also number more than 100. But i guess they are acceptable to Mr. Naj and do not fall under UN violations and human rights abuse.

Enough for now.

regards

Amit

Dear Naj,

Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts.

Fact 1 - On numerous occasions has the leadreship of Hamas, Ilamic Jehad, Hezoballah mentioned in their public speeches that their goal is to kill every jew in israel. Even the supreme leadership of Iran has given such statements in full public view.

Fact 2 - Hamas, hezbollah etc are targetting JEWS. I repeat they are not targetting millitary establishments, but their objective of rocket fire is just to kill a jew or two. And whosoever claims that killing innocent civilians is a legitimate means of any form of human expression is a supporter of terrorism or and IDIOT.

Fact 3 - Israel has the capacity of wiping off gaza from the map. It is not doing so but specifically targetting those who are violating their human rights. Hamas does not have the capacity to obliterate Israel, if it gets such capability what happens next is anyone's guess. Hamas and others have continously been targetting civilian populations while Israel has not.

Fact 4- Palestenains civilian deaths are deeply tragic but are a collateral resulting out of targetting a fighting force which uses civilians as human shields. Any Israeli civilian death is pure murder as civilians are being specifically targetted.

Fact 5 - Palestenian society has been under siege and Mr. Naj and likes are shouting hoarse for lack of basic amenities. A society under siege does not focus on stocking on food and medicine or clothing or baby milk. But their core focus and efforts are towards stocking and firing rockets. I beleive 100 bags of food and medicine which would suffice a 1000 people for a month could have been smuggled for every rocket that has been fired. Looking for sympathy is such a scenario would be assuming that most of the civilized world is full of idiots which can be conned by such bullshit.

Fact 6 - Killing your enemy who threatens to kill you is a justified code of conduct in a war. Solidiers die in wars and civilians MUST not be targetted at any cost. But you cannot hold your enemy to ransom by shielding yourself among population and banking upon his goodness. If you start playing with fire crackers inside your house it is bound to get burnt. Everyone above the age of 16 in Palestine will understand that.

Fact 7 - 1000 deaths are very very tragic. How about those killed by Hamas these days in public executions. Court, trial and punishment in the name of god in 30 minutes flat. Such deaths also number more than 100. But i guess they are acceptable to Mr. Naj and do not fall under UN violations and human rights abuse.

Enough for now.

regards

Amit

Dear Naj,

Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts.

Fact 1 - On numerous occasions has the leadreship of Hamas, Ilamic Jehad, Hezoballah mentioned in their public speeches that their goal is to kill every jew in israel. Even the supreme leadership of Iran has given such statements in full public view.

Fact 2 - Hamas, hezbollah etc are targetting JEWS. I repeat they are not targetting millitary establishments, but their objective of rocket fire is just to kill a jew or two. And whosoever claims that killing innocent civilians is a legitimate means of any form of human expression is a supporter of terrorism or and IDIOT.

Fact 3 - Israel has the capacity of wiping off gaza from the map. It is not doing so but specifically targetting those who are violating their human rights. Hamas does not have the capacity to obliterate Israel, if it gets such capability what happens next is anyone's guess. Hamas and others have continously been targetting civilian populations while Israel has not.

Fact 4- Palestenains civilian deaths are deeply tragic but are a collateral resulting out of targetting a fighting force which uses civilians as human shields. Any Israeli civilian death is pure murder as civilians are being specifically targetted.

Fact 5 - Palestenian society has been under siege and Mr. Naj and likes are shouting hoarse for lack of basic amenities. A society under siege does not focus on stocking on food and medicine or clothing or baby milk. But their core focus and efforts are towards stocking and firing rockets. I beleive 100 bags of food and medicine which would suffice a 1000 people for a month could have been smuggled for every rocket that has been fired. Looking for sympathy is such a scenario would be assuming that most of the civilized world is full of idiots which can be conned by such bullshit.

Fact 6 - Killing your enemy who threatens to kill you is a justified code of conduct in a war. Solidiers die in wars and civilians MUST not be targetted at any cost. But you cannot hold your enemy to ransom by shielding yourself among population and banking upon his goodness. If you start playing with fire crackers inside your house it is bound to get burnt. Everyone above the age of 16 in Palestine will understand that.

Fact 7 - 1000 deaths are very very tragic. How about those killed by Hamas these days in public executions. Court, trial and punishment in the name of god in 30 minutes flat. Such deaths also number more than 100. But i guess they are acceptable to Mr. Naj and do not fall under UN violations and human rights abuse.

Enough for now.

regards

Amit

Please excuse the repetetion. It is the bandwidth...........i guess

Dear Amit,

Fact1: "Khaled Mashaal said Hamas will accept the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, a departure from the group's customary claim to all of Israel, Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank for Palestinians"

"In a speech in Jerusalem Monday, Carter said Hamas won't undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum. In such a scenario, he said, Hamas would not oppose a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza"
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/21/carter-hamas.html?ref=rss

“The most infamous quote, "Israel must be wiped off the map", is the most glaringly wrong. In his October 2005 speech, Mr. Ahmadinejad never used the word "map" or the term "wiped off". According to Farsi-language experts like Juan Cole and even right-wing services like MEMRI, what he actually said was "this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
What did he mean? In this speech to an annual anti-Zionist conference, Mr. Ahmadinejad was being prophetic, not threatening. He was citing Imam Khomeini, who said this line in the 1980s (a period when Israel was actually selling arms to Iran, so apparently it was not viewed as so ghastly then). Mr. Ahmadinejad had just reminded his audience that the Shah's regime, the Soviet Union, and Saddam Hussein had all seemed enormously powerful and immovable, yet the first two had vanished almost beyond recall and the third now languished in prison. So, too, the "occupying regime" in Jerusalem would someday be gone. His message was, in essence, This too shall pass."

http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley08282006.html

Fact2: Of course two wrongs don’t make a right ,but who else does the same crime?

“Two United Nations contractors were killed by an Israeli tank shell today during an official suspension of hostilities designed to allow relief operations in the besieged Gaza Strip”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4176882/UN-drivers-killed-during-three-hour-Gaza-ceasefire.html

Let who never sin cast the first stone

Fact 3 – Not a fact, only an assumption

Fact 4: Collateral for perpetrators and allies but the relatives of the died ones may not think so. Further, it targets other places where there were no militants at all.

“In Gaza, at least forty Palestinians died Tuesday after Israel fired mortars at a United Nations school that was sheltering Palestinians who had been forced to flee their homes. Fifty-five Palestinians were also wounded in the attack. Doctors said all of the victims were civilians, including many children. Christopher Gunness of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency condemned the Israeli attack.

Christopher Gunness: “Over a thousand had taken refuge in this school. The Israelis had been told exactly what the GPS coordinates of the school was, of all of our facilities in Gaza. All of our facilities are very clearly marked as UNRWA facilities. If there have been violations of international humanitarian law, and our response is rooted very firmly in international humanitarian law, we want there to be a full and impartial investigation.”

Israel admitted to firing mortar rounds at the school but claimed its actions were justified, because Hamas militants were using the school to fire rockets. But the UN said there were no militants at the school.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/7/headlines

Fact5: Lifting of the siege was a condition for the cease fire. In ‘civilised world’, anyone is supposed to honor the terms in any agreement.

“The present situation is not harming Hamas in Gaza but it is harming the people," Blair said yesterday. Calling for a change in policy over Gaza, he added: "I don't think that the current situation is sustainable; I think most people who would analyse it think the same.

Blair's comments came as an Israeli air strike against a rocket squad killed a Palestinian militant yesterday, the first Gaza death since Hamas formally declared an end to a six-month truce with Israel.”

It shows Hamas might have smuggled arms but it did not fire any rocket.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/21/israel-gaza-strip-middle-east

And they did smuggle the food.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7815415.stm

Fact6:

“The direct targeting of civilians is prohibited, as are indiscriminate attacks. The Israeli military's use of white phosphorous shells is almost certainly illegal in a densely populated area such as Gaza. Individual targets may only be selected if the direct military advantage anticipated from the strike exceeds the expected harm to civilians. Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli towns rather than specific military targets are illegal. So, too, is the use of powerful bombs in crowded neighbourhoods.

The Israeli government points to the fact that Hamas is using civilians as human shields. Hiding behind civilians is illegal, but two wrongs do not make a right. The relevant question is, again, whether the direct military advantage of a particular target exceeds the risk to civilians. Is destroying a mortar position next to a school worth 42 innocent lives?

It is also illegal to target aid workers. Last week, a UN driver was killed when his clearly marked truck was struck by an Israeli shell. The incident forced John Ging, the director of UN aid in Gaza, to suspend operations. The decision was "heartbreaking," he said, but the organization had "lost confidence" in verbal assurances from the Israeli military.

War crimes: Violations of all these rules constitute war crimes, which are subject to universal jurisdiction in the sense that the perpetrators may be prosecuted in any country's domestic courts. This raises the possibility of trials if they are foolish enough to travel abroad and the local authorities are brave enough to arrest them. (In 2005, a former head of Israeli forces in Gaza said he was warned by diplomats not to leave an aircraft that had landed in London after a tip-off that British police were waiting to arrest him on war-crimes charges.) There is no possibility of prosecutions in the International Criminal Court, since Israel has not ratified the court's statute. Hamas, as a non-state actor, cannot do so.

The absence of a reliable mechanism for prosecuting Hamas and Israeli perpetrators is unfortunate. But so, too, is the support that some Canadian politicians have given to apparent violations of international law. The long-term viability of these rules depends on our willingness to speak out in defence of them - against all perpetrators.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090112.wcoisrael13/BNStory/specialComment/home

Fact7:
"The record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles. "

http://www.counterpunch.com/finkelstein01132009.html

Should we be stuck in history or proceed from here now? Hamas did not fire the rocket first - Isreal did not, and that too not complying with the terms from day one. Yet, Hamas requested for better terms for truce and proposed to extend it to West Bank.

"Diskin listed Hamas's conditions as cancelling the blockade of the Gaza Strip, obtaining a commitment that Israel won't attack, and expanding the cease-fire to the West Bank."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728273026

Dear Amit,

I know that I should not be wasting my time by replying persons who hold such prejudices as "Like many muslims of this wide world your point of view being unreasonable is no surprise. You tend to see everything through the tinted glasses of your religion and have a fantastic habit of ignoring facts"

I promise I will not do it in future

Dear Naj,

As usual all your replies lack reason and are prejudiced. You have only replied to 30% of facts happily choosing to ignore the core issues.
People of Gaza are being milead towards a path of religious extremism which will beget them nothing but destruction either from within by Hamas and Islamic Jehad(the name says it all) or by their neighbours.

A kid born is palestine is taught that the only means of a political expression is killing innocent civilians and suicide bombings. And we have educated people like you who support such school of thought.

Look at the history of Kkaled mashal...what all has he done are crimes....and not a political agenda.

Since last few years more than 1500 innocent people have died as direct result of terrorist activity by pakistan sponsored terrorists in India. Much more than the toll of Gaza. If all Indians go by your twisted logic then we must fire a rocket every minute on the civilian population of pakistan. Of course we will have Mr. Naj justifying that.

You are wasting your time in accusations of cease fire violations.....they go back a long way in time....and if you go down that road you will find many rockets, murders and suicide bombings as well.

Anyone whether he is a palestenian or an Israeli must not use terrorim as a means to any kind of a political agenda. however important or sacred the agenda is. Period.

Terrorism means murdering or maiming innocent civilians without any warning.

I hope it is not so difficult to comprehend.

warm regards

Amit