Hi DK and Everyone,

DK, since the ratio 14 Israelis to 765 Palestinians killed is the norm for this MidEast conflict, I would have to ask the leadership of Hamas why? Why lead your citizens to this repeated slaughter by choosing to launch rockets against a foe the has the means to defend it borders in this way? Why put your citizen's children in the line of fire, repeatedly, recklessly, uselessly? Why?

Hamas may choose to call this action resistance but, in reality, what are they actually resisting, can any tell, they certainly are not resisting acting in a way that leads to the slaughering of these children....

Any other leaders repeating this kind of behavior would be called sadistic, appropriately, while, Hamas and Hezbollah get away with calling it martyrdom, the "great resistance of the oppressor."

ask Hamas why they are killing these children?

have a great day ruth..

"What is the fault of the children of Gaza who constitute one third of all killed and injured?"

-- just so.

It doesn't matter who is supposedly firing what, this is wrong.

“Why put your citizen's children in the line of fire, repeatedly, recklessly, uselessly? Why?”

Ruth, your tunnel vision is deplorable.

“The old troll has lost her marbles, but that would not be entirely accurate. After all, it would be difficult to lose what you never had in the first place.

We shall forever be indebted to her for her outstanding, imaginative and invaluable contribution to the site”.

Partly paraphrased from one of the brightest guys who ever blogged here, Ron Saywack.

Hi DK,

I just wanted to add that I just checked google.com/news and the first headline was this,

Thousands protest Israel's offense.....

Well, these thousands are, in essence, telling, Hamas, we are with you! Keep them rockets launched! Israel is bad, murderous!! Hamas and their citizens, the poor helpless victims, essentially, putting the biggest smile on the face of Hamas, giving them a thumbs up, and, actually, encouraging the next conflict, the next "lambs to the slaughterhouse" behavior that is their genius.

Of course, while, everyone, is protesting against Israel, notice, that, Hamas has not taken an ounce of pity on it's own citizens' pain and suffering, no, they continue to launch their pathetic rockets...they continue the "great resistance" even though most of the victims are their citizens' children....

beyond frustrating...ruth

No one likes to see this kind of human suffering and especially innocent children.

But I'm thinking some of the political response that has ensued in this situation is an example of a peculiarity of the human race in which perpetrator and victim become confused and the roles are reversed. Hamas is no friend or defender of the Palestinian people. They are interested only in achieving their own goals, one of which is the destruction of Israel. After all that's ensued, I am not sure how to show the Palestinian people that they themselves bear some responsibility in this by electing Hamas to represent them but they do.

I am not advocating for the tactics employed by Israel. One of the responsibilities of a State is the protection of its citizens. Obviously, being on that particular damnable piece of real estate, Israel feels it is limited by its choices in achieving that goal.

I would say to both the Palestinians and Israel, the takeover by the reptilian brain is not the entire movie, just the most savage scene near the end. If you want to practice or actualize liberation, you got to do it on liberation's own turf and that is the heart and soul of the people.
In the big scheme of things, the victim/perpetrator model does not work.

Saying that does not make the deaths of children any more easy to witness just more tragic. It does not have to be this way.

Yes, yes, yes, DK. Thank you.

- - -

If anyone is interested in how counter-productive this action is for Israel, please skim this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/middleeast/10cairo.html

(or click my name)

morning all,

like I said, it is beyond frustrating...

heath you write, "If anyone is interested in how counter-productive this action is for Israel"

14 Israelis to 765 Palestinians dead, a third Palestinian children!

Now, if one were to seriously debate counter-productivity on this issue I would have to say the Palestinians are coming up with 765 reasons to date, why, it totally sucks for them.

Israel is looking to defend, protect, and provide for, their citizens, they are accomplishing their goals. Now, you and thousands of others may be of the opinion that it is up to them take a so-called higher stance in response to a foe who has stated it's prime goal is the extinction of Israel, as a Nation, or, as Jewish Homeland, but, when the numbers speak so blatantly of Israel's success and the Palestinian's failure, most leaders would step back and ponder their losses and change their ways, but, it seems, that the Palestinians, under the leadership of Hamas, do not. Why, I wonder, most likely, because 765 deaths with one third being children IS their goal, in this chosen conflict of their instigation. Victimhood is their success, it seems, not, protecting, or, defending and, most important, providing for the citizens under their care.

Yes, I am sure that Israel's response is not without flaws, morally, or, even, just, common sense, wise, but, since, they have this investment, in this Nation, I am sure, in the end, they, will stand upright before any judges, here, on earth, there, where-ever, and neither confirm or deny, but I bet they will hand over the tallies...

1939-1945.....six million dead in Europe

2008...14 dead, in the Nation of Israel.

another mission accomplished.

so, go ahead, and read why it is counter-productive for Israel, you, and the thousands of others who see it this way, I am sure for Israel it is not so much a popularity contest as it is a life and death situation for the millions under their leadership.

The Palestinians should be so counter-productive.

Everyone who isn't a Jew always states how, they, need, to just get over 1939-1945, these, are just their ghosts, and, I always, just, shake my head at this luxury of perspective. 2008-1939 is how many years? 69 years, 2008-1945 is how many years, 63 years....ONLY, not even enough time for the "ghosts" to get 40 winks of a "rest in peace".....I would like to anyone who states this kind of line....get over it, already, in less than, let us say, 200yrs, in the least, from such an event.....

Anyway, yes, for those of us in the world who are blessed with the luxury of a perspective as to what Israel should do, be, or get over, I am sure for Israel they could care less, their ghosts, are, still, to here, and, now, for them to be distracted from their objectives.

have a great day heath and thanks for the counter-punch on this issue...I do dis-agree with you on this but I do respect your offerings of your viewpoints...always...ruth

Hi DK,

you write, "Can present actions, stand the test of reciprocity, if roles were reversed? What if the other side had all the superpower and the asymmetric ratio of casualties was reversed? Would we still feel this way?

I think in this situation there is, now, if I am not mistaken, a bit of reciprocity being done with the more moderate Palestinians who have decided to accept Israel's right of existence and both are trying to work "things" out for a two state alternative. I do not know how far either side has traversed in this, as of yet. In Gaza not so much reciprocity is being explored.

If the numbers were reversed and the Nation playing the "victim card" was Israel and Palestine being the superpower, I would be just as appalled with Israel's constant choice to instigate a situation that would cause this much death and suffering to the citizens under their leadership, uselessly, repeatedly, recklessly, while, whatching their citizens suffer daily, due to lack of the simple needs of everyday life, essentially, using their citizens as their "sacrifical lambs" to a cause that, in reality, will never come to be, the extinction of the Nation you feel is living in your homeland.

Yes, reciprocity, is an ideal in any conflict whether individual or national but when the parties are wanting two very different goals or objectives then it is about attainment rather than compromise or negotiation or even understanding. And, unless one or both parties have realized that their objective will never come to pass, and, therefore, decide, to end the conflict, with an alternative objective that is acceptable to both or all parties involved. If one party is convinced that their goal is attainable because they have this "belief" about their "conflict's righetousness" even though the actual sufferings and deaths mounting up year after year are predominately by their citizens, alone, is not a deterrent for their actions, then, the conflict is simply doomed unless the citizens who are suffering the most, experience the deaths of their loved one, the most, decided to call a halt to this action it will be doomed to continue until.

If the perpatrator or instigator is getting "their reward" whatever, it is, they, will most likely continue their behaviour, especially, if, the death and sufferings of it's citizens contribute to that reward, it is, the belief, that, is most important, anyway, not the actual lives affected for this kind of perpatrator or instigator.

So, yes, ideals are lovely but sometimes it is just not about what the ideal....

have a great day ruth

israel should stop the killing...

from what i can see there will neva be peace in that part of the world...the violence will continue till the end of time.

that is a very small piece of land with so many people claiming it as their own...damn! what's the attraction?

Dear DK

It's a good thing to broaden the conversation beyond choosing up sides in this conflict. And yes, it is a fundamental Buddhist principle that liberation comes about by the elimination of human suffering.

I agree that if both sides were reversed reciprocity would prevail provided the sides were the Palestine people and Israel. But since you have introduced Angulimala into the equation, I would like to ask you who you assume to be Angulimala in this situation? Is it Hamas, the Palestinians,
or is it Israel? I could be wrong but from your words, you seem to imply it is Israel.

Let us not be distracted from the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization and their reality. Terrorists see peace as the enemy and cleverly subvert it. This is well documented and demonstrated by the life of now deceased Hamas champion, Arafat, who was a primary core of terrorism for decades. So, if Hamas put itself in the shoes of Israel, it would find that it is a State and will remain where it is and would like nothing better that to be left alone to engage in more productive enterprises.

If Israel put itself in Hamas's shoes, you might find that black swan you are looking for.

States are, or should be, governed by reason and rationality so the rest of us have the freedom to pursue the matter of awareness or consciousness.
Yes the beauty of the SELF in ALL is ONE. However, we do live in this world and there are times when rationality takes precedent. So, if you put yourself in the mindset of a terrorist, you have to think exactly opposite of how a rational person thinks. It would be irrational, emotionalized and criminal, or they wouldn't be terrorists in the first place. So let's be real. In this particular case, a spiritual teaching or any other educational endeavor would be that the process does not start from where "you" are but from "they" are and then work upward from there.

So, to answer your question, Yes I would still feel the same way if the shoes were flip-flops/d.

All good wishes to you also for 2009

Love
B